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Why did people hate the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge? · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We've returned with another classic episode for you. You guys
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: like wildlife refuges.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: It's fine concept, do I do? Actually very much.
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: I think it's an important concept and, as we know,
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: something that probably we wouldn't even have if it weren't
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: for certain forward thinking founding fathers.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, The National park system or wildlife conservation areas of
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the United States are pretty fascinating. This classic episode looks
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: at a wildlife refuge that was created in nineteen o
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: eight to protect one of your favorite things, migratory water fowl.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: You know me so well, Ben, Yeah, sure, Ed. This
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: is as we'll see, This is a spark that leads
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: to a fire of ridiculous controversy.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: Let's jump right in.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio Nowadays. Here in
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the States, national parks are national perks, or at least
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: they're considered that way. Do you like how that rhyme?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Noel?
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like perks like like they're good? Yes, p e
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: r k s that's the wordplay?
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Is there a different perks? I'm sorry, I need some
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: coffee to get perked up because we go. I'm kind
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: of fading right now. Oh and your band by the way.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, the rumors are true. Of fellow ridiculous historians, we
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: hope you have found the podcast you were looking for.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: With our super producer, Casey Pegram and most importantly with you,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: specifically you, we have formed Ridiculous History. Today's episode is
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: about something that I think the three of us were
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: all pretty big fans of national parks.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they're cool, they're so cool. Natural splendor in the
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: grass or the mountain.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: The stream, Purple Mountain's majesty.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: All that stuff. Super magistical. Have you seen a Hunt
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: for the Wilder People? I still have not watched it,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: he says, magistical a lot. The kid that was in
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Deadpool too, he's a Kiwi and he is a delight.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Watch that movie if you haven't seen hi Yah unrelated
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: total non sexual.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Oh but worth it, worth it because that also has
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of natural beauty in the story, right, exciting.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's about a family that lives out on the
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: in the bush of New Zealand. And yeah, I imagine
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  Speaker 3: they have some sort of system over there to designate
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: land to keep people from you know, messing it up,
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: mucking it about.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Right, Sure, even if only because of the Lord of
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: the Rings and but I always loved about growing up
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  Speaker 1: here in the States was this preponderance of land wherein
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: you can just go camp, you can just go adventuring.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I know it's one of our mutual dreams to write
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a burrow into the Grand Canyon.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: We have discussed that multiple times. Now that you mention it,
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  Speaker 3: the thing is, though, and so I'm assuming that you
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: are saying you stand squarely in the four National Parks camp.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And are you a little more divided on
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: this one?
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Well, after what I've read in today's story, I maybe
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: have to have one foot in, one foot out, because
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: it turns out that National parks could be a real
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: thorn in the side of working Americans throughout history and
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: well today.
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  Speaker 1: Right because the National Park System was created way back
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: in nineteen sixteen or August twenty fifth in this country,
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  Speaker 1: and we're going to explore how how these became a
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: surprisingly controversial concept to a lot of people.
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  Speaker 2: So our story.
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  Speaker 1: Begins today in nineteen oh eight, when President Theodore Roosevelt
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  Speaker 1: established something called the Lake Malheur Reservation in Oregon. And
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I believe that our friend Casey Pegram has a little
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: more insight for us on Lake malheur.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so the word malur in French could be considered
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: like an antonym for bonar, which is happiness boner. So
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: maluur kind of means a lot of things depending on
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: the context, but they're all bad. You could say it's
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: a misfortune, a calamity, an ordeal, an accident. So yeah,
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: there you go, malir lake bad.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's said, that's foreshadowing. Oh, also, Casey on
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  Speaker 3: the case. Indeed, let's just get a few Let's deal
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  Speaker 3: with some semantics up front right here. Okay, we talked
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  Speaker 3: about national parks, like that's what we're talking about. And
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  Speaker 3: while the system that created national parks is very much
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  Speaker 3: the same system that created wilderness refuges and designates, you know,
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  Speaker 3: wildlife reserves and things like that, they're not exactly the same.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there's an important distinction to make because when
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: President Roosevelt established this reservation, it was the nineteenth of
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  Speaker 1: fifty one wildlife refuges that were ultimately created by Roosevelt.
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  Speaker 1: During his tenure, he was just making refuges left and right.
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  Speaker 3: You know, he was a bit of an outdoorsman.
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  Speaker 2: He was, indeed noll he was Indeed.
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  Speaker 3: My question though, is can we can we spell it
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  Speaker 3: out for the listeners and for my dumb ass exactly
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  Speaker 3: what the difference is between a wildlife refuge, a national
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  Speaker 3: park and a wildlife reserve.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, we can, with a little help from Ali Berman
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  Speaker 1: writing for mother Nature Network with the article parks versus
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: refuge what's the difference? So in this article, which is fantastic,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: pretty comprehensive by the way, we learn that there are
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  Speaker 1: several different manners in which government land can be set
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  Speaker 1: aside for specific purposes. So first, there's the National park.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody knows that idea think of Yellowstone, right, and Yellowstone
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  Speaker 1: was established way back in eighteen seventy two, so it's
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  Speaker 1: the predecessor to the early nineteen hundred's plans laid by
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  Speaker 1: Woodrow Wilson with the National Park Service. Then there are
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  Speaker 1: also state parks, which are like national parks, but they're
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  Speaker 1: under the management of an individual state. Then there are
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  Speaker 1: national forests, which are also different. And the difference here
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  Speaker 1: comes in terms of the level of conservation. National parks
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  Speaker 1: have preservation at the forefront of their priorities. National forest
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  Speaker 1: have a larger array of activities like cutting down trees
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  Speaker 1: for timber cattle, grazing, which will come into play later,
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  Speaker 1: and mining. National preserves are open to the public and
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  Speaker 1: the differences that preserves typically allow activities like hunting, trapping,
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  Speaker 1: or mining. And then, of course there are national monuments,
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  Speaker 1: things like Statue of Liberty, Mount Saint Helen's National Recreation areas.
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  Speaker 1: State preserves state nature preserves make environmental preservation a top priority.
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  Speaker 1: For instance, Indiana calls its state preserves living museums, so
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  Speaker 1: these are protected for scientific research and educational resources. That
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: means that human activities are much more regulated.
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  Speaker 3: But the reason that Teddy Roosevelt swooped Inn to designate
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  Speaker 3: the Malleor Wildlife Reserve, it was because of ladies fancy hats. Yes,
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: did you know that?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it's apps.
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  Speaker 3: I'm sure sure it could be men's. I'm size any
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  Speaker 3: fancy hats in general, because at the TIMEIMIM, which was
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  Speaker 3: the nineteen early nineteen hundreds, they were quite in fashion,
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  Speaker 3: these hats, these fancy hats of all shapes and sizes,
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  Speaker 3: but an important feature was the plume.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Right, yes, you see milliners, which is our word for today.
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  Speaker 1: People who make fancy hats, specifically for women, were always
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: searching for feathers to put in this headgear, and the
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: search for birds to supply these feathers was quite a
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  Speaker 1: profitable industry, right. So, in the increasingly desperate efforts to
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  Speaker 1: satisfy this wild demand for fancy hats, people had nearly
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  Speaker 1: wiped out several species of birds that supplied these fetching,
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  Speaker 1: colorful plumes, including birds like snowy egrets and rouseate spoon bills.
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  Speaker 3: Ah, the spoon bill also the great egret, I believe,
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  Speaker 3: was also very much in danger. And it was this
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  Speaker 3: guy named William L. Finley, who was a conservationist of
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  Speaker 3: the time, who had particularly hung out around that area
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  Speaker 3: and taken a survey and he discovered only two egrets
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  Speaker 3: in a month's time. And here's the thing. There's another
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  Speaker 3: article I saw. Do you know who Audubon is of
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: the Audubon Society and.
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  Speaker 2: Painter, right, John James Audubon, that's.
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  Speaker 3: Right, Ben, the great American painter of birds who lived
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  Speaker 3: from the late seventeen hundreds to the late eighteen hundreds.
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  Speaker 3: And he was quoting in his day, as you know,
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  Speaker 3: he would go out and paint these birds from real life,
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  Speaker 3: and he would say that he had no doubt in
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  Speaker 3: his mind that any amount of progress that America could
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  Speaker 3: possibly make, including building cities, increasing population, hunting, what have you,
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  Speaker 3: that there were just so many of these damn birds
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  Speaker 3: that there is never going to be any threat. Obviously,
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  Speaker 3: he wasn't a scientist, and he was completely.
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  Speaker 1: Wrong, right, because we know that the US civilization was
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  Speaker 1: also incorrect about the passenger pigeon, which used to blacken
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  Speaker 1: the skies as they flew overhead. And they don't do
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: it anymore because they are extinct. So back to Finley.
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  Speaker 1: Here you can see how this is a splash of
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  Speaker 1: cold water. So Audubon dies in eighteen fifty one, and
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  Speaker 1: beforehand he makes this comment about the plenitude of these
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  Speaker 1: beautiful birds. Finley in that search you mensioned, Finley is
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  Speaker 1: searching in nineteen oh eight and only sees those two
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  Speaker 1: egrets during a full month. But he also does something else.
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  Speaker 1: He does a little bit of investigative journalism. He interviews
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  Speaker 1: a plume hunter, one of the people who supplies these
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  Speaker 1: feathers to milliners, and he learns that a good plume
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  Speaker 1: hunter on a good day can make five hundred dollars
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  Speaker 1: cash in nineteen oh eight dollars. Now, could you do
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  Speaker 1: us a favorite whip? Out the inflation calculator for.
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  Speaker 3: That I can. In fact, I don't even have to,
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  Speaker 3: because the Pacific Standard dot Com did it for us
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  Speaker 3: in the article the Odd History of Opposition to America's
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  Speaker 3: National Parks, And according to them, five hundred dollars per
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  Speaker 3: day in those days translates to more than twelve thousand
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  Speaker 3: dollars in today's.
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  Speaker 2: Cash, which means twenty fifteen.
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  Speaker 3: That's insane. Yeah, twenty fifteen. Let's just be real obvious here.
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  Speaker 3: He's not just going around plucking feathers. He's killing the birds,
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  Speaker 3: and they're skinning them and taking their carcasses home right
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  Speaker 3: and wiping out entire populations. And he boasted this guy
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  Speaker 3: that he was going to take that all the way
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  Speaker 3: to Mexico and just hunt them like a like a
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  Speaker 3: murderous criminal across the west. So yeah, it was this
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  Speaker 3: report when delivered to Roosevelt, it shocked Roosevelt into action,
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  Speaker 3: and he wanted to help out these birds, these three
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  Speaker 3: birds that were left. There were other species, I'm sure,
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  Speaker 3: but sure.
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  Speaker 1: And of course there were probably other birds that he
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  Speaker 1: had not been able to find during that month of searching.
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  Speaker 1: But still the problem is apparent. So Roosevelt sets the
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  Speaker 1: land aside that same year, nineteen oh eight. He works fast, right,
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  Speaker 1: And for a while this seemed to be a workable solution.
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  Speaker 1: The population was beginning to recover the population of birds,
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  Speaker 1: that is. But by nineteen twenty things started to go
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  Speaker 1: wrong because there were still agriculture happening around the area.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: They're taking resources that are in this area and they're
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  Speaker 1: sucking them out the same way Daniel de lux Us
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: in there will be blood says, I drink your milkshake.
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  Speaker 1: Farmers in nearby areas are draining water from the rivers
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  Speaker 1: that feed into Lake Malure, the Sylvis and Blitzen rivers specifically,
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  Speaker 1: And this means that the lake begins drying up. And
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  Speaker 1: what happens as a result of.
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  Speaker 3: That the lake goes well, yeah, it turns into a
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  Speaker 3: dust bowl, right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it becomes a terrible place for these birds. It
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: becomes alkaline.
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  Speaker 3: Right And what does that mean exactly? That does that
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  Speaker 3: have to do with like the balance of the nutrients
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  Speaker 3: in the water. I mean, if it's dried up entirely,
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  Speaker 3: that's one thing, But as an alkaline kind of that's
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: what happens before it dries up entirely. I believe.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the pH scale goes off. So an alkaline lake,
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  Speaker 1: also known as a soda lake, has a pH value
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: between nine and twelve. One extreme example of this, there's
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: an excellent Smithsonian article I found about an alkaline lake
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: in Africa. And this article is written in twenty thirteen
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: by a guy named Joseph Stromberg. It's got some scary pictures.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: He's looking at Tanzania's Lake Natron and the title is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: this alkaline African lake turns animals into stone.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: And that's the article I've been looking for this whole time.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: I actually thought that this Lake Malor was that one,
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: but no, you got to see these pictures, folks. They
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: are outraged, stuff of nightmares.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Hoorrif ie. We'll post them on ridiculous historians. So bad things,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: bad things.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: And that's, you know, per our previous casey on the
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: case foreshadowing the lake is basically called bad lake, and
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: bad things happen.
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  Speaker 1: This group of people in Oregon starts thinking, why don't
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  Speaker 1: we just get rid of this whole thing entirely?
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  Speaker 3: Who needs a lake?
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Just call it off.
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  Speaker 3: It's just it's become a dirt hole. Let's make use
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: of it. Let's sell it to farmers. They're good at dirt. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: they need it, literally a prerequisitiever being a farmer, you
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: gotta have some dirt.
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  Speaker 1: But they knew people might already be against this, you know,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: early environmentalists and conservationists, so they did a little bit
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: of marketing, right to try to really sell the idea.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, they really did. They agreed that the proceeds would
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: go to benefit oh, public works and schools. I want
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So in this
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: article from PS mag, there's a fantastic ad from of
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: the day that's posted in a tweet from Danielle Brigida,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: who works for the United States Fish and Wildlife Service,
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  Speaker 3: And it's a picture of I'm assuming one of these
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: spoon bills because it has a very spoon like bill
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: and a baby, arms out stretched as though they were
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: both posed in front of like what looks like a
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: floppy gray cloth backdrop, and.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: The birds in profile looking a bit threatening toward it looks.
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  Speaker 3: Like it's gonna eat the child and is every bit
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: as big as the child. And the headline is which
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: is best of all, Oh I got and this baby,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: all this bird. Oh that's tough, and then the bottom
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: says vote for the baby three seventeen times no. So yeah,
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  Speaker 3: this bill was basically fighting against the people that were
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: trying to keep this thing going despite the bad conditions.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And we should read a little bit of the copy
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: here just so you can see how ardently they were
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: endeavoring to phrase this as birds versus babies. Right under
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the headlines that we read to you, there's another headline
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: that says the Malard Bird Reserve. Oh, I'll do, trans
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Atlantic voice, what take fum oh again, forty seven thousand
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: acres of its most valuable school lands? So wait, forty
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: seven thousand acres of school lands.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's the hook. It's giving them a cause, right, Yeah,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Because who do you think it would win in a
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: fight between a bird and a baby?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: A bird?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it depends on the size of the bird.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: But looking at this bird and this baby, clearly the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: bird has got.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: No question about it, especially that giant spoon. Bill, You're
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: the size of the baby's entire head.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I would spoon the spoon the kid's head right off.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: But the thing about this was that they also added
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: concerns about another naturally occurring life form in wetlands mosquitoes,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: And in this complaint they talk about the dangers mosquitoes
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: might pose to Oregonians.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: And not to mention the fact that these birds were
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: apparently actually stealing grain from the farmers who could potentially
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: benefit from the land. Right, And that's a big sticking
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: point in all of this kind of national park wildlife
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: refuge argument, at least when it comes to certain parts
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: of the country where folks could really benefit from those lands.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Right here in the city, we think about a national park,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: we're like, cool, that's awesome, save the egrets or whatever.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: But if you're a farmer and you need somewhere to
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: graze your cattle and Uncle Sam has swooped in and
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: taken a huge swath of land, might have a tune
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: to pay.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to spend some more time on
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: this mosquito threat as well, because we again have the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: benefit of being in the modern age. So it may
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: seem like an exploitative or manipulative point, but the truth
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: is that the complaints about mosquitoes are less about them
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: being annoying and more about incredibly dangerous diseases from the time,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: like malaria. So I think that is also a valid point,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and that that's another aspect of this incredibly valid or
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: at least understandable argument, wherein somebody in a rural population
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: by a national park or by a reserve, or buy
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: some sort of refuge, maybe saying I feel as though
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you are putting the lives of animals over the lives
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: of myself, my community, and my family.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: That's right, because malaria was still kind of a problem.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah in that area. Apparently it had wiped out
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: a lot of the indigenous people early on in the
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: eighteen thirties, but yeah, it still had stuck around. And
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: if you've got a breeding ground for mosquitoes, malarial mosquitoes,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: no less, that's a real problem and a pretty good
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: selling point for this campaign.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: So what happened next? They did one of the most
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: American things you can do. They took it to court. Baby,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: you defeated it. I mean it, it went away right.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Well, the state said that the Feds had stole it.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: They said, more or less, Uncle Sam stole this land.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: They didn't have President Roosevelt as commander in chief and
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: as the leader of the executive branch, never really had
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the right to call the shots for this land in
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: the first place, and went all the way to the
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: It kind of reminds me of that story we talked
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: about with your pops about Franklin. Oh, there was just
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: like a bunch of land that they just kind of
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: took it upon themselves to do something with. There was
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: once a time where that was a thing.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this happens, not so not so far after it.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: So by nineteen thre five, the Supreme Court, having considered
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the issue air quotes the issue right, they juticated there
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: we go. Yes, they ruled in favor of the federal government,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: and they said that this land does in fact belong
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: to the Feds. This refuge, this reserve is legitimate, and
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Uncle Sam had the authority to protect the wetlands from people,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: even if you know it endangered the livelihood of those
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: same people. So you may be wondering, friends and neighbors,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: where this story goes. How does it end? It feels
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: like you might be thinking that Nolan and I did
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: a little bit of an abrupt cut. But we're not
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: ending the story. We're moving ahead because this argument that
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: occurred way back in nineteen twenty resonates today and remains
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: important today, we see many similar arguments as a matter
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: of fact, happening as recently as what No. Twenty sixteen.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. What are we talking about? The militant
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: takeover of the Malor National Wildlife Refuge. Is this what
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: we're talking about?
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, all of one.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: So could you tell us just a little bit about
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: this and how it transpired?
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I mean there was a group of armed
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: militiamen and the Bundy family and their followers, headed up
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: by a guy named Aimon Bundy.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, Aman Bundy, not to be confused with Solomon Grundy
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: though they just rhyme or Ted Bundy or Ted definitely
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: not to be confused with Ted Bundy.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Or Al Bundy.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: You know what, I'll allow it, okay, all right?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: So Aman Bundy participated in something in twenty fourteen called
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: the Bundy Standoff at his father's ranch in Nevada.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: This was a very.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Controversial and sensitive topic because other members of his group,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: the one that you had mentioned, this Bundy group, were
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: loosely affiliated with militias and something called the Sovereign Citizen Movement. So,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: without getting too far into the Bundy Standoff, we wanted
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: to give you just some background on this guy. He
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: is an American car fleet manager and his father was
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: a rancher named Cliven Bundy, and his father was a
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: leader of this twenty fourteen Bundy standoff in which Aimon
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: took part. And their problem was that they were refusing
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: to pay grazing fees for taking their livestock on federally
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: owned public land. And they said, well it's public land.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: We're just trying to make a living, right, why are
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: you putting this land over the livelihood of human beings?
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: And it's that same argument Uncle Sam stole it.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Right, This argument from nineteen twenty still thematically applied in
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. But before we get to twenty sixteen, there
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: are some things that led up to the twenty fourteen
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Bundee standoff there in Nevada.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Right, Well, yeah, it was sort of a bit of
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: a domino effect situation. So a guy named Dwight Hammond
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Junior and his son, Steven Hammond were actually sentenced to
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: pretty significant jail time. Believe they both were sentenced to
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: five years, and that is because they set wildfires on
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: this protected land. Well you don't set wildfires, I guess,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: but they set fires on the printed land. To prevent
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: wildfires from damaging their you know, you burn things to
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: keep things from burning, which seems weird, but.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: To make a break where there's no combustible material, yeah,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: or relatively little.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: They set one fire in two thousand and one and
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: one in two thousand and six, and then in twenty twelve.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: They were both charged in relation to these fires.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: And I believe, you know, the way they said it
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: was that one of them got out of hand. But
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: according to an article on CNN, Bundy who did the standoff?
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Who was you know, one of the guys who was
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: the leader of the of the militia group that you know,
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: overtook the refuge headquart which apparently, by all accounts was
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: completely uninhabited and the doors were open, and this standoff
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: was like not really much of a standoff at all,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: and he never really led on to exactly how many
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: people he had there, and it was kind of a
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: whole lot of sound and fury signifying not a whole lot.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: But their arguments were that the government should give up
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: control of this refuge so that hardworking you know, ranchers
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: and farmers can do what they need to do, whether
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: it be grazed, their cattle or you know, mitigate these
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: wildfires in order to make a living. So it's that
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: same argument of like this is more of a problem
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: than it is a benefit.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: So concurrently, while they're going through the legal issues with this,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: the Hammonds the Bundies are having their twenty fourteen standoff.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, US courts vacate the charges against Stephen
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: and Dwight Hammond, and this has already attracted the Bundy
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: family to their cause. And the idea is that when
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: the court vacated these sentences, they didn't just let them out.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: They re sentenced them pretty much immediately to a mandatory
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: minimum of five years in prison.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: And the Bundy said, you know what, we're going to
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: protest this, and the Hammond said, apparently, guys, we don't
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: really need your help.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people apparently said that. I mean,
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: it kind of had the look of that the Bundies
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: were overreaching a little bit and kind of doing something
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: that maybe no one quite asked them to do. Because
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: there's this great Vice documentary where they go to a
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: town hall and a lot of the folks, the ranchers,
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: the community is like, these guys are jerks, like they're
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: making us look bad, and they're making us look like
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: a bunch of militant whack jobs, and that's not cool.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: It's not a good look. So it did seem like
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: their gesture was not appreciated by all.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Let's say that absolutely.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: So we know that the Bundies were big fans of
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: arms standoffs.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Right right, and they were they saw themselves on the
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: right side of history.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Isn't standoff though if you do it at your own ranch.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Who was after them at their own ranch? I'm confused
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: about that one.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah as well. Right.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: But in twenty sixteen, this group of armed militants, seeking
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: to I guess, bring more attention to the Hammond case,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: they seize the headquarters of the Malor National Wildlife Refuge
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: there in Harney County, Oregon, and they occupy it until
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: law enforcement finally arrests everbody on February eleventh, twenty sixteen.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Their leader aim in Bundy not to be confused with
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: anyone but out, and their motivation for this was again
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: to bring more attention to that same old argument from
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. They wanted to persuade the public to
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: side with them in the idea that the United States
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management and other
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: similar organizations are constitutionally required to turn over federal public
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: land to individual states. So no federal parks, no federal reserves,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: only state level stuff.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Got it? So does that did it really accomplish anything?
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Was that a positive step? Because, I mean, the guys
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: that set the fires originally were pardoned by President t
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Rump recently too, So does that mean that the current
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: administration is more sympathetic to the need of these farmers
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: and more likely to maybe get rid of some of
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: these refuges. It's kind of seem that way.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: That's an that's an interesting question to know. I mean,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: there's always been some degree of tension between the federal
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: level of governance and the state level of governance, you
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. For instance, well, we've already done
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: several episodes wherein we learned that a handful of states
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: we're completely okay being their own countries.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: For a while.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Right, So, as.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Of today, this argument continues, and we have to ask
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: ourselves what is the solution, if indeed a solution exists?
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: You know, are we are we to put ourselves in
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: a situation where the quality of life for human beings
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: is sacrificed for the sake of biodiversity. Are we to
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: put ourselves in a situation where we sacrifice biodiversity and
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: wildlife or natural ecosystems for people's livelihoods?
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: And then obviously it's got to be somewhere perfectly in
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: the middle, right right right, You got any ideas.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: If so, we would like to hear them, so right
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: to us directly. We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com and.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: We know this was kind of a circuitous, weird one,
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: but I thought it was fun do a little backstory,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: bring a full circle to the now.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And I think you did a really good job man,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: by the way, especially considering your bird thing.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: Oh god, I didn't even think about that.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I had to. I had to hold it to
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: the very end.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: But if you would like to learn more about this,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: if you would like to see some of those insane
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: pictures of animals from the Alkaline Lake.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I almost looked at those, dude. It's like I shed
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: my bird fear just for this episode, and then you
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: reminded me and it all came flooding back and like
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: a like a murder of crows.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Flapping back, flying back.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna need you to finish that one.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you can see those pictures on our community page,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. You can find us on Instagram, you can
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: find us on Twitter, and you can check out our
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: website for every single show we have ever done. You
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: don't tweet, Dewey, we're you and I spend more time
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: on the Instagram and.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: The Facebook page.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: That's true. We need we need to get a little
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: more personal with that Instagram though. I looked at the
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: other day and it was kind of a sad site.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Let us know what you would like to see on
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: the Instagram and we will. We will pop in there ourselves,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: well watch and get a little bit ridiculous with it.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: But in the meantime, our website is Ridiculous historyshow dot com.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And we'd also like to say, you know what, listen
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: not a positive note, nol. What's your favorite national park?
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: If you're not in the States, what does your country have?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: In equivalent?
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let us know, and we'd also, of course I
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: have to thank super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: composed our theme. I like to thank you, Ben, and
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: thank you NOL for waiting till the end to mention
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: the fact of this episode was about.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Birds, cacaw, bro cuckaw, and yeah it.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Most importantly, thank you guys for listening and tuning in
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: and join us next time when we talk about something else.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: That's right, and we'll tune in for our next episode
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: when we explore these surprising origins of Oregon.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: See you then, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: your favorite shows