Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / Pop Superstar Missy Higgins on Sexuality, Fame and Failure

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Pop Superstar Missy Higgins on Sexuality, Fame and Failure · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Get a humans welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas. Is she or isn't she gay or
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straight or by in or out of the closet? These are some of the most dangerous questions
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that can plague a young person, especially when they're skyrocketed to fame as a result
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of their creative genius, as was today's guest, Missy Higgins. It's hard to overstate
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for non-Australians how important Missy Higgins is. In the Australian music pantheon,
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she exploded to superstardom down under when she was still in her late teens, her first
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single, shot to number one.
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Her first album went straight to number one at the Aria Awards, which Australia's Grammys,
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she won Best Pop Album.
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She was a phenomenon and at the time she was secretly dating her tour manager, who happened
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to be a female. The tabloids went crazy, speculation swirled and now she finds herself
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with a couple of kids and an ex-husband and an incredible life story. She has a brand
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new album which is a must listen and I just found it fascinating to explore fame, success,
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failure, love, the closet and everything else with the one I only missy Higgins.
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I've had a host of Rage this morning and a group of Melbourne with us. Rage, explain what
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Rage is to non-Australian listeners. Rage is a music video TV show that it's like curated
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music video playlists. Yeah, it's like sort of like MTV used to be in the States, I guess,
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right? Yeah, I guess so and you have specific hosts come on and choose like 50 songs and
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choose about 15 to introduce and talk about. It's a cultural icon of a show but it's amazing
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to me that it still exists. I know because it goes all night too. It's for like people
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that are on drugs at 3 a.m. chewing their mouths off. So you got up this morning in Melbourne,
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shot Rage, is that live? No, I flew here and then shot Rage and then came here. I'm just
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interested because when people are on like press tours and constantly talking to interviewers,
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I just feel so much empathy for you because like so much of the conversation is so
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fatuous. Yeah, especially radio. Especially radio is so stupid. And honestly,
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you do these games like... Yeah, I know. You know, what did you have for breakfast or things?
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Yeah, and there's Biffo, Boffo and Shiloh. And they were all like, yeah, exactly,
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they were spinning the wheel. I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm not sure why it's still like that.
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It's like they're catering to a really dumb audience or something. It's very broad, isn't it?
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Yeah. On commercial radio. Yeah. And people are flicking around. Not like this show.
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Not like this show. Very high brown. No, but I just mean also even on like podcasts and long
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form stuff, no offense to your profession, but I do find the way that interviewers interview
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musicians to be particularly tedious. There's just something. There's definitely a set of questions
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that we get asked a lot. And like interview, it brings out the most pretentious side of
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interviewers I find, talking to musicians because like, and so like, I think the real power of
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your lyrics, Smithy comes from like just the ability to connect, you know, and like the deep
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sense of humanity, you know, that you have, that you share with everybody. And like,
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what are you supposed to do with that? Yeah, I mean, I agree. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.
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Well, the most common question is what comes first, the lyrics or the right music.
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And I have to pretend to not shut all my eyes into the back of my head every time I
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mask that. What are some other ones? Where do you get inspiration from? Where do you get inspiration
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from? Yeah. From a huge one. Like only a person who has no creativity can ask,
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where do you get inspiration from? Yeah. Like it's completely baffled by the concept of having
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a muse of having like something that comes out when you just need time and space to come out.
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I think that they're probably looking for a quote like the John Lennon one about walking along
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the street and and plucking it out of the air. And what is that quote? I don't know.
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Something about walking along the street. It was probably a great quote. Yeah.
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It was very pointed. My favorite John Lennon quote is that life is what happens when you're busy
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making other plans. I like that too. It's so inspired. It's so true. Especially once you have kids
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start you know. Yeah. I think I think I've been learning that lately more than ever actually.
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I think something about turning 40 and going through a divorce at the same time made me realize
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that I have absolutely no idea what the future holds because I had such a strong story that I've
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written out for myself like this is the way my life's going to go. I'm going to do all the I'm going
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to tick all these boxes that make me a successful human. And then I'm going to I'm going to I'm going
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to win the game of life. That's right. Yeah. He who dies with the most toys wins as my mom's
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t-shirt used to say. Oh really? Was there anything liberating about that? Yeah definitely. It was
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one of those feelings. I guess when something really extreme like that happens it kind of
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does this feeling this is kind of terrifying feeling while simultaneously there's a bit of an
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exhilarating feeling because suddenly you get a chance to reinvent yourself and suddenly
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you know the future is unknown and I don't know we just don't get many chances for that and I
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realized that I'd been part of me had been looking to the future going oh fuck I know exactly how
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it's going to go. I'm going to die with this person and I'm never going to be I'm never going to
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have any other you know romantic experiences ever again. I get that flash up as a negative
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and oh yeah I mean I feel like everyone that's married is pretending if they don't
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occasionally think to themselves shit is this okay yeah this is it forever. You know you've
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got to at least fantasize about the idea of being single once in a while. I don't know if that's
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true or in my case I kind of hope that maybe there's like some little element of yes there's going
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to be a certain level of sameness but also like I've hitched my wagon to this train or whatever
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and like so we're going to have a whole bunch of different experiences together well that's good
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you probably met the right person then yeah maybe that's it yeah and there's and I imagine there's
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a sense of comfort and security in that too yeah like you've made your choice and now you don't have
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to keep considering other people you don't I mean yeah yeah I mean we're all going to die like
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that's the thing that you that I sort of realized in my 40s you know it's like wow it's just all
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this going to happen is we're just going to keep on being busy and then at some point we're not
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going to be able to be busy anymore. Yeah I think I realized too that there is this kind of
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cultural obsession with longevity at all costs. I'm part of that. Yeah I mean and I've
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fought into it as well you know I've I when I was you know growing up everybody reads the happily
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ever after stories and you think okay well obviously all these stories end with you know
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it well obviously it's usually a man and a woman meeting up and and falling in love and being
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together forever and I read these stories to my kids and I'm like I feel like I have to do a caveat
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that well you know you don't have to get married you don't actually have to meet anyone to
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in order to be fulfilled and happy. Don't have to live forever either yeah yeah but I think that
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had been so ingrained in me and now I'm trying to undo that because I feel like in order to be a
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fully you know spiritually developed person I should probably become very comfortable with the idea
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of finding happiness internally. Of course I mean we all know that don't know what it's like. I know
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but there is something innately human about wanting a partner I think yeah about kind of trying
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out maybe I pick that maybe did you always want one yeah I didn't always want kids and I didn't
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always want to get married I think once my sister had a baby and my ovaries just started screaming
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at me then I was like marriage babies right and I just think marriage was an instrumental thing that
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you were doing to have babies. I think I liked the idea of marriage because I found the idea
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of having a wedding really romantic like just declare having a huge party where you're declaring
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your love and fun of everybody and also I think I liked the idea that we're locking this in with
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each other and we're basically making it really really hard to leave each other yeah and that made me
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feel more secure. When you put it like that doesn't sound very appealing actually yeah sounds more
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prism like yeah but I feel like you know there must be something inside us that knows that you
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know if you don't have things really set in stone if you don't make those promises in front of
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hundreds of people then you may be well I think I would have been fine without that I don't really
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yeah I don't I was never a long-term relationship guy until I just met someone who I really really
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enjoyed being around and then I was like oh maybe this would work actually yeah if we did that
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if we did that. I like the idea of just choosing the same person every day like the idea that
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every day is a choice to be with that person. That's good isn't that yeah yeah and I mean there's
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a thing about having kids is that you don't get to re-choose the kids every day you have to so you
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have to choose to re-choose your own children right like you have to choose to re-choose your own
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family essentially. Yeah and you have to accept that I remember Steve Bittolf said somewhere that
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you don't get the kids that you imagined you'd get and the kids don't get the parents that they
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imagined that they get that they always dreamed that get which is so true yeah but I think that's
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where the biggest life lessons come from it's like wow this is if I could have you know if I could
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have hand-drawn the perfect child it would have been one that didn't have tantrums did that
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it was always super grateful he loved my music just sit on the gas in the floor this listening to me
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you know I mean look in my case my children do have the perfect father in me but I don't have the
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perfect children unfortunately so it's funny to me that success in your mind was associated with
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like settling down and being and happily ever after and like the white picket fence because that
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doesn't strike me as something that's been core to your either life or public image and because you
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were so successful so early I mean that's yeah I think because I grew up with a family we really
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prided ourselves on being this really strong family unit and it was all about how mum and dad
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was still married after all these years and you know when all our parents got divorced it was like
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we were the family that were sticking together there was just a lot of there was a lot of focus on
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that growing up and and we always had family dinners and rarely was anyone else invited and it was
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just all about I don't know keeping that family unit really strong and really precious and so I
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just wanted that for my kids and my kids you know like they're not going to grow up with that and
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the guilt of that and the shame that I feel about that is something that I have really had to
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tackle the last couple of years because it feels like such I feel like I really let them down
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in that regard so now I have to I feel like I've got to be super mum in every respect to kind of
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make up for the fact that they now live in a single parent household so I'm not sure how much of
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that is like cultural conditioning and they're actually completely fine or I don't know how much
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it is actually really beneficial for them to have two parents but it feels like a lot of the time
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it feels like I'm not enough for them well what's definitely not beneficial is for them to have a
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single parent who's constantly beating herself up about I know well that's why I'm writing songs
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about it in order to move through all of those all of that shame and what shame you've used that word
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twice yeah I don't know it just came up a lot when I was writing these songs like it came up
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that I wasn't it was almost like I I failed at the one thing that I wanted to give my kids
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and again I think that cultural conditioning of like this is what it means to have a successful
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adult life as you have you know right the two and a half kids picket fence marriage that lasts
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forever I mean it's also a thing that's very hard and the half of the people who do it don't
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continue with it yeah I just didn't want to be in that half it's funny isn't it though that you
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that that would land for you as shame because it could land as any number of things it could land
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as betrayal could land as you know having made a bad mistake it could land as you blaming him yeah
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I think that's my my downfall is that I never blame anyone but myself but also he didn't yeah
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I mean not to go into the details of our relationship but nothing bad happened you know what I mean
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it just kind of didn't work it just disintegrated yeah so I think my I feel like maybe women in
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particular take on a lot of the the the burden of like keeping the family together and making
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sure that the husband's happy and making sure that everyone's okay all the time so I feel like
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I've taken it on a little bit although he he feels terrible and shameful as well so I think the kids
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I think the kids are going to be able to have all the situations and scenarios that children can
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find themselves yeah having a single parent is not one of the worst I mean I am interested in
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that initial period of fame when you're young though you mean because I was talking to Keith Urban
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the other day who was talking about how relentless the slog and the grind was for him for like
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years turning into decades and not really feeling like he was getting a huge amount of traction and
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just how many how long he had to bash his head against the brick wall of Nashville before
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getting anywhere and for you like I mean correct me if I'm wrong but you were a teenager
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yeah you wrote a song didn't pass my hand for too long you signed with water music you know your
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first album was like number one in Australia and on a bunch of areas which are our Grammy Awards
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was that like yeah I mean it was pretty crazy and I don't think I handled it very well I mean I'd
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I'd always been a pretty although I'd love performing I was always a pretty introverted kid so when I
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got famous very fast I I really struggled emotionally with that and then I went over to America where
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I wasn't famous and I toured there for many many years which I loved at first but then I did it
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for too long and I burnt myself out but I think I always felt like I wished I'd done the hard yards
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yeah I was wondering about that do you think that there would have been some kind of character building
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or creative you know upside to I think I probably would have been a bit more grateful for the fame
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I think at the beginning it was so hard because I was like I didn't ask for this you know I was a
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little bit like why did this happen to me what was me kind of thing I mean I was young and I'm
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in a lot of young people don't handle handle fame very well um but I think I know a lot of people
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who had done the hard yards for so long and then they got success and they were just they just
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embraced it and they embraced the fame um with both hands and they loved every second of it but
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I was just like oh I just I just wanted to sing this is I just got out of high school what's
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happening and I'd wear you know big dark glasses like I was Paris Hilton and you know
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have a big beanie over my head um but then I took a huge amount of time off in my 20s I actually
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quit music for a while because I'd started hating it and then when I found my way back to it I was
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I had developed a lot of gratitude and that stayed so I'm really grateful that I went away
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from it for a long time and made my way back and you were also very much in the public eye at a
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time when like you're dealing with a whole bunch of stuff in your personal life I'm sure which
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you didn't necessarily want to be in the public eye you were dating a girl at the time and like
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everyone was constantly asking about your sexuality and who you're in a relationship with yeah
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um what do you look back on I mean how do you think about that and the process of coming out
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in hindsight I think that that also made it harder too I think because every interview I was
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doing the interview was trying to get me to say the pronoun of the person that I wrote
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specific song about and so it felt like this this game of dodgeball every time I was in an
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interview because I was like how do I explain this song without saying he or she you know and it
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was really really stressful and it just felt like nobody's business and her and I was still
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trying to figure out whether we wanted to go public or not because it was like our first proper
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relationship with with a woman and um I think that made it all a lot harder to handle all the
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scrutiny um but how did you sorry I finished the thought well I was gonna say and how did you feel
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about the concept of like being out and the concept of like they're being a responsibility like
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sometimes people can feel like there's almost a moral onus on them to like you've got to be out
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and proud you got to be like a you know card carrying flag waving member of the capital C community
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and you're like I'm just living my life yeah yeah I think because it was so new I mean I remember
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having a conversation with there were where I was like I want it I wanted to tell the world
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because I was really in love we'd been together for a year and I was I was completely comfortable
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with it we'd told our family and our friends and she wasn't yet comfortable to tell everybody
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because we were in a working capacity with each other and she's like I don't want this was your
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management yeah she was like I don't want your management your record committee to treat me
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differently or the things is some kind of you know um that I should be treated as your girlfriend
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instead of your tour manager yeah and um yeah I ended up writing a song about that called
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secret because we were just in this little secret bubble together um but it was also a bit of a
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different time like I remember I remember thinking that my American label in particular would not
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have been happy about it I mean they were trying to really girly me up in all my video clips they
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wanted better I was really pushing back about not wearing dresses and all my video clips and then
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wanting to you know wanting me to grow my hair and they didn't like the short hair tomboy look
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and it just there was just an undertone of um homophobia so it didn't it didn't feel a 100%
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good for my career at the time which is funny to look back on now because obviously so much has changed
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I mean it'd be great it's like how do we get this into the bio to get me more fans yeah yeah
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um there yeah it was a bit of a different time and now how do you feel about activism and the
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community and so on I mean I only asked because I'm sort of personally torn to
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myth about this I mean I'm married to a guy but I had you know long and fruitful relationships
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with girls when I was younger and I sort of feel like you could play the story of my life again
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and it could go differently and I could have made different decisions and I could be in a relationship
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with a girl and um I suspect that that probably has been more common throughout history and in
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various places than we sometimes think it has and yet we're still very competitive about
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there being labels and identities and in and out of closets and things in a way that I wonder
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whether there will ever come a point at which that becomes actually counterproductive and and
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I know it's like the labels the labels are becoming so vast and broad that I wonder if at one point
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that it's just going to become one big thing where we all go yeah it's just it's just easy
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pre-seed fluid man fluid yeah I remember that's what I felt was the if I was to define myself back then
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I didn't want to define myself as bisexual because it felt like too small a label yeah um so I said
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if I could define myself as anything it would be fluid um which is a strange word
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no I love it I'm just I'm only laughing because on the less people of start I've actually
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thought about this it's very hard for it to land because it just sounds like you're being
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pretentious I remember having a conversation with one of my close friends and like talking for
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20 or 30 minutes and spilling my heart out about all my thoughts and feelings about
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sexuality and labels and gender and fluidity and everything and at the end he was like so there's
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gay straight and bi which one are you hmm I was like did you hear anything I just said
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I can like what a an awful prison of a world to live in where you're you've just got a bureaucratic
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checkbox that you have to check yeah yeah it feels very very very box tiki and I think because
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it feels like such a state of flux that I'm always in with my sexuality too like I go through
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stages where I'm like I'm only looking at girls and then some stages where I'm like no I'm
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definitely interested in dudes at the moment like there's just something about the masculine and
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the feminine I don't know if it's hormonal for me but I just want to be able to choose month by
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month year by year what I feel is my identity and anything that any label that I put on myself is
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going to get me stuck in that forever especially if I say it publicly so one of the cliches about
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quote unquote bisexuals is that they can never settle down because they're never going to be
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satisfied with one sex or the other did it contribute to the breakdown of your marriage no that didn't
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no but I do but going forward I'm like do I want to be in I like the idea of an open relationship
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going forward I never we never talked about this when I was married but I'm like I like the idea
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maybe it's because I did have that mentality for nine years of this is the only person I'm going
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to be with forever and I was fine with that because again that's that commitment that I wanted to make
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and I felt like a successful human being for making that commitment but something about having
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broken up now and moving into this the second act of my life into my forties I'm like maybe
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maybe I don't believe in monogamy and maybe I don't want to just choose one gender for the rest
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of my life or one person I don't know I mean it's it's kind of one of those things where I feel like
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maybe everyone says that until they fall in love and then they don't want their partner to be with
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anyone else well not wanting your partner to be with anyone else is one thing but whether or not
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that trumps your desire to be with other people is the question isn't it I mean nobody likes
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the idea of their partner being with other well some people do that's not true what's the
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called comparison that's the idea that's that's getting joy out of the idea of your partner getting
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joy with somebody that's right yeah yeah yeah being caught or something right I mean like some
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people also get a kick out of the idea of being betrayed as well like well um not that it's all
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the trial it's not betrayal because it's very much intentional yeah but there are people who
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also get a kick out of being betrayed yeah anyway there's all I don't like being betrayed but I
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like the idea of my partner being with someone yeah that's interesting yeah that's interesting but
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I mean I get my point is that even if one didn't then it still might be a price worth paying in
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order to have the freedom to explore yourself you know yeah also I mean the funny thing about
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monogamy is we sort of treat it like it's an on-off switch like you're going to have an open
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relationship where you can both go out every night and just end up in all the glory holes
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of said you know like and then come home and like you know there's nothing special about this
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actual relationship that you have with your partner because you're spreading yourself all over the
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place but at the other end of the spectrum there's also just a difference in emphasis where
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like monogamy is not the sole defining deal breaking like arbiter of whether or not the
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relationship is a success which is what seems to be the expectation it's like almost everything
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else can be forgiven except it's like this one thing has to be so fundamental yeah that seems
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crazy to me yeah and also I think um the idea of your relationship or your sexual relationship
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with your partner not being special because you're you're putting it in all the glory holes
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I just don't think that's true I think that it could make it more special right at home yeah
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the number one glory hole in your bedroom but I think that like a lot of the argument is that it
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does make it more special because yeah it's creating an openness and a conversation that you wouldn't
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be able to have otherwise and that whole thing of liking the idea that your partner's getting
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pleasure somewhere else and it makes it a little bit more exciting because you do get a little
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bit jealous and it makes it you know that it makes them seem more attractive to you because they're
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going off and being appealing to someone else and if part of the non monogamy rules which many
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non monogamous people have is that you can't see the same other person again then what's special
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about your relationship is that this is the one person who you always come back to exactly there
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you're that's your love yeah and I mean people have several loves that can have you know
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polyamorous relationships but I like the idea of having your one person and then you can go
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off and have weekend fun with other people yeah polyamory doesn't appeal I don't think I could
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fall in love with several people like when I fall in love I've really fallen love with my whole heart
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but I like the idea of being physical with other people I think that that would be fun because
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I think I could compartmentalize in that way yeah it's interesting isn't it I think that that
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would just become a scheduling nightmare as well and with kids I just don't know how many physical
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fun stories exactly yeah I know it's interesting isn't it I wonder why we have this this
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this deep kind of norm about monogamy still do you think it's intrinsic or is it just a hangover
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from religion or something yeah I think it's just a hangover from wanting to
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own a woman yeah right and merge families I mean that seems a little bit archaic to me now
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very archaic that there's so much emphasis on that you would detonate your life I mean that's what
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this seems archaic to me that you would blow up a family and like you know ruin the derail everything
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because of one instance of I mean it may not even have been in fidelity I mean you may have a
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relationship where there's an acceptable boundary where a person you know when the cat's away
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there or when you know what what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas or something like that you might
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rule like that so it may not be betrayal or in fidelity per se it may just be sleeping with another
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person with the implied consent of your partner or whatever and the other weird thing just what I'm
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on a rant about bisexuality that the claim that it's harder for bisexuals to be monogamous
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it's so weird to me because everyone I've just reinforced that haven't I will know because I
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asked you point blank and you denied it but the I mean what's what's amazing to me is that
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everyone of every sexuality every day is declining to pursue opportunities to have sex with someone
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they want to if they're in a monogamous relationship yeah right it doesn't matter whether you're
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maybe going against human nature maybe and it's no more pronounced with a bisexual and it is
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with a straight person or a gay person like where yeah true yeah you're partner is always not
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everything yeah and you've always got little gaysy eyes you know looking around you
28:42
what I hope so I have both genders to gays yeah that's right yeah it's more fun more fairing
28:47
opportunity when are you more creative and when are you less creative and does that wax and
28:51
wane in relationship with any other way of saying what what do I get my inspiration from I suppose
28:55
it is isn't it no but I'm just sort of interested in like the periods in one's life when like does
29:01
obviously love stimulates you know the creative yeah and god heartbreak more than love in a way
29:07
I mean I started writing this I give a plug to my new album it's called The Second Act and it's
29:12
all about this and what made me start writing it was I started dating again and before that I hadn't
29:20
written any songs for a year after my separation from my husband and then I started dating
29:26
someone and it just brought up all these feelings and I realized that how messed up I still was and
29:31
how much just guilt and shame and all that stuff that I was still holding onto and just the
29:36
complications of trying to have a relationship with someone who's not the parent of my child
29:43
and how much I don't know I just it just felt like so much baggage that I was bringing to it
29:48
and I felt like why would you want to be involved in this like I I was miserable I was crying and the
29:56
pantry every night and feeling sorry for myself and you know the evenings are so chaotic in my house
30:03
it's like to one kid screaming at me from each end of the house and I'm running between the two and
30:08
you know trying to be two parents and I just think how am I going to meet anyone who wants to
30:14
be involved with this but then I did and then and it still didn't work because I couldn't stop
30:20
looking at him and going why would you why do you want why would you want to be here what's
30:25
wrong with you that's deadly yeah like give him the right to make bad decisions
30:29
myself I know I know totally I mean it's I was just a mess and that's what a lot of the songs are
30:35
about it's just like I I'm a little bit I'm just a little bit too damaged at the moment to
30:39
get involved in maybe when the kids are a bit older you'll be less damaged I think so I think I
30:46
will have gotten over the the separation and I think my kids will be a little bit there might be
30:53
a little bit more room because they're a bit older and a bit more mature and and it's very I'm
30:57
at the very hands-on stage how old I've got a nine-year-old boy and a six-year-old girl yeah it's a
31:05
lot of there are a lot I mean they're amazing but I I want to give them everything as well you know
31:12
if I had a relationship which I did try to do I just felt myself being torn away a lot my energy
31:19
and my attention being torn away and being in those new that new stages of a relationship
31:25
it's like you want to spend so much time with them but I've got my kids five days a week at least
31:30
and you can't do everything yeah I know you don't have to do the beginning of the relationship
31:38
perfectly and also the mothering perfectly and therefore you can't do either because they're not
31:45
perfect yeah I know I just found it really hard to compartmentalize I think but again I think
31:53
most of all it was just because I still had so much that I was trying to deal with like I think
32:00
that's why I needed to write these songs I went to a therapist and she ended up pretty much firing
32:05
me because I couldn't I couldn't get anything out she was like I I just want you to have a little
32:12
thing about whether therapy is right for you or whether maybe songwriting is your therapy right
32:18
and I felt really offended I was like on the way home I was like I don't want everyone very well
32:24
what does she mean that doesn't she want my money jeez Christ but I can't I know what she
32:31
means now it's like I find it I need my songs in order to be able to work through something it's
32:37
something it's even more so than writing in a diary if I can write a song about it maybe because
32:43
it's like it's almost like writing a short little poem but the music somehow intensifies the emotion
32:50
and enables me to kind of navigate you know the resolution yeah I find that it just it helps untangle
32:59
whatever is inside me whatever confusing thing is going on and does that just performing it
33:04
help us well or once it's there and once it's laid down does it then get leached of meaning
33:10
no no once when I can perform it that's that's the really therapeutic bit because that's the
33:16
connection bit so the writing bit is how I figure out what I'm feeling and when I'm performing it
33:22
that's when I figure out I'm not alone oh your therapist is right then I mean yeah she was totally
33:27
yeah she saved me a lot of money yeah um I mean you literally make money from the music exactly
33:32
you get paid I get paid for my therapy it's amazing I'd recommend yeah but yeah there's
33:36
nothing like I mean this this whole album is so full on and intense and I've just played 40 shows
33:42
where I play a lot of these songs to a live audience and I can hear audible sobbing yeah because
33:49
like you said it's such a common experience I'm not going through anything original there's so many
33:54
people if they haven't gone through a divorce they've grown up with divorced parents or you know
33:59
like so many people have first-hand experience of it and just you know those themes of being a
34:06
single parent or just trying to navigate your love life totally I mean in hindsight it was probably
34:12
a good thing that you took a break in your 20s because what often happens to people who get famous
34:16
very quickly when they're young is they start writing about their concerns which are all quite
34:21
unrelatable abstract concerns about like touring too much and you know yeah being on planes too
34:26
much and stuff like that that's what I was saying I was like how many songs can I write about
34:29
being on the road yeah exactly that's what I end up like oh and or you know you don't know what
34:33
it's like to be famous and the real me is inside and you know you know all the the difficulty you
34:38
think that you're looking at a beautiful queen but I'm actually vulnerable deep down like blah blah blah
34:43
you know what I mean whereas actually what you're going through now is mature it's real that's
34:47
really relatable yeah it's relatable I think I didn't I didn't like the idea that I was
34:53
becoming that person too I liked the idea of I mean I went I went to uni I I went traveling I just
35:00
became a nobody who was who said yes to everything right and it was so good and I did get so much
35:06
life experience and how do you I mean part of dating is sort of being a nobody as well like how does
35:11
Missy Higgins date in Australia it's very hard I went on all the apps yeah and just as
35:18
yourself you didn't try to I went on as Melissa okay I tried the Raya one this Liberty one oh yeah
35:24
yeah it's all YouTubers and influencers yeah not my type of people I tried the normal ones and
35:31
there's lots of lovely people there but I realized quite quickly that I I really am not very um
35:39
superficial person when it comes to who I date like it's so much about the personality for me
35:44
like anyone can become good looking so it felt like a needle in a haystack and I reckon good
35:49
looking people are probably bad news if you I feel like people that are too good looking have grown
35:57
up knowing that yeah and they've developed a certain personality that's um that I find quite
36:03
repellent right so I don't know I like the interesting weird ones the ones that might not even be
36:08
on a dating app you know the arti kind of you know probably quite reclusive cookie ones yeah um
36:16
and yeah me too I know exactly what you mean and I mean not to age ourselves but like when we were
36:23
young and I was on apps and things it was much more about writing and I would like
36:29
text smarty snarky like long text threads back and forth with people when I was in my 20s
36:35
and now I look at the kids these days with their apps and it's all just pictures front and center
36:40
yeah and like there's not a lot of days and selfies and selfies yeah um what do you call it the
36:46
things that they don't with a filter on your face or something yeah yeah with the doggy is on
36:51
your foot yeah with it you know done on a certain angle that makes them look completely different
36:56
to what they look like in real life yeah and it's yeah it's funny because you're right that there's
37:00
not that does not lead to a huge amount of like sensitivity about exactly what the psyche of the
37:06
person and I think you need I think you need shared experiences too yeah that's one thing that
37:12
I've come to realize is I need to get to know someone really slowly or doing something side-by-side
37:18
that we both can relate to each other about I'm I can't just sit over you know over a table with
37:25
someone at a restaurant and get to know them that way right I just can't I can't be myself yeah and
37:30
do you like creatives or do you tend not to oh yeah no they have to be creative they don't have
37:36
to be creatives I mean sorry creatives as in that like they're careerists in the creative arts yeah
37:42
I definitely I I have a lot more in common with creatives than I do anyone in a quote unquote
37:50
normal profession yeah I think I would find it maybe a little bit hard to relate to someone with
37:54
that lifestyle because I'm never less I come what in the thought bubble above your head when you
37:58
talk about a normal profession well 95 wearing wearing a suit going to an office right yeah or just
38:05
like a doctor anyone who just like clocks in and out of work um traiti traiti is a pretty hot
38:13
but they'd have to be they'd have to have a creative side to them right like they'd have to be very
38:18
intelligent and very creative like have I feel like I'm a matchmaker I know I need to go
38:24
out and find your creative traiti I need to find your cute reclusive artistic traiti but also
38:31
charismatic reclusive but charismatic reclusive charismatic quirky quirky artistic funny nerdy funny
38:39
not nerdy not nerdy no intelligent but not nerdy okay yeah right what's the difference um I don't
38:47
know I feel like no glasses with the glasses and the nasally voice I don't know yeah maybe there's
38:55
no well I feel like nerdy they kind of it's part of their identity the fact that they're intelligent
38:59
but if someone's quietly intelligent you just kind of discover it over time when you have deep like
39:03
night conversations yeah you probably need to be not in Australia as well like somewhere where you're
39:09
not but when I lived in America it was a lot easier I bet yeah yeah how do you because how do you
39:14
even overcome the if you're sort of anonymous as you're starting to introduce yourself to someone on
39:20
an app mm-hmm at what point are you like when they're like what do you do and you're like I'm a
39:24
musician they're like oh what sort of because in their brains they're like oh she's probably just
39:28
gigging around you know as in past or something at what point do you drop the bomb of being like
39:33
actually I'm I just I never I never want to do that that's the problem because I don't know if
39:39
they're pretending to not know who I am which has definitely happened yeah um or if they really
39:44
don't know who I am in which case I'm not gonna gonna go hey by the way I don't know if you've
39:49
heard of me but you sort of do have to because there are a lot of people who would not necessarily
39:54
recognize your faces simply yeah I would just know who much of hints and then they'd eventually say
39:59
what's your stage name or whatever right but it just feels like we're starting off on very different
40:07
ground levels you know like they can google so much about me and they and a lot of people know a lot
40:14
of about me already and and come to the table with preconceived ideas whereas I come to the day
40:19
were completely blind and so I find it really hard to get over that barrier of okay well what do
40:26
you think you know about me and do you like my music in which case that could be kind of weird
40:30
but then I don't like the idea of you hating my music either I want to be perfectly indifferent
40:35
yeah I wanted to just have never really heard it just by coincidence and then suddenly start
40:39
loving it when you meet me yeah it's fascinating isn't it I was actually talking to my kids in
40:44
the car this morning driving him to school about fame because my son said that he wanted to be rich
40:49
and I said we're I was talking about money and we were talking about being rich and then he said
40:53
I want to be rich because I love fame and I said actually they're different things you know I
40:58
explained him the difference between being famous and being rich and he paused for a moment then he
41:02
was like I think I just want to be rich and I was like that's a good that's better you're right
41:08
because yeah because being very famous is weird like it's good to be a bit famous it's good to like
41:16
you know you name me something when you're getting when you're checking in at the airport or
41:20
you're at a restaurant to get a table or something but the idea of being so famous that you can't
41:27
go out looking like a slob I know I feel for Chappell Ron how you know she recently released those
41:34
videos saying you know would you go up to any lady on the street and ask for a photo with her would
41:40
you ask for you know and follow her and her family around did you see those videos I didn't see
41:45
I mean it's blown up across the world because everyone's giving her shit because they're saying
41:50
oh you're nearly famous and you know you already can't handle it because she's just the biggest
41:56
thing in the world right now but I feel for her because I only had you know a millimeter of the
42:02
fame that she had and it's it's just weird it's just it's unsettling and it goes hand in hand with
42:10
success when you're a musician so you can't really resent it because you you love the you love
42:16
the fact that your music is being loved by so many people but the fact then that everybody you
42:21
meet gets just a little bit of a weird crazy look in their eye when they're talking to you it's
42:27
a strange side effect it's funny isn't it do you remember noticing that for the first time
42:34
I don't and that's how long ago I mean it's you know 20 20 years ago that it started for me
42:41
but you know I noticed when I go to America I notice how rude people are to me right and it's
42:47
only because people are so nice to me yeah I love it yeah this woman was so rude to me at the
42:54
shop today it was awesome I had a genuine interaction with a human being today yeah it's like that
43:00
there's a isn't there an episode of 30 Rock with John Ham where you know she where Tina Fey
43:06
it suddenly realizes what it's like to be a beautiful person because he's so handsome that he
43:10
thinks that everybody in the world is just always nice you know and she has to explain to him that
43:15
this is I'm just only because you're beautiful but this is how regular people don't have people
43:19
treating them this way and it's the same with fame so what does success then look like for the
43:25
second half of your life if like you're kind of just coming out of a state where you're re-evaluating
43:30
the white picket fence and the marriage and everything yeah I don't know I think success for me at
43:38
the moment is really being a good mom that's my that's my number one focus because I've been touring
43:46
so much lately I feel like I really want to just stay at home with my kids and focus on kind
43:51
of them being okay and them feeling really stable I want them to grow up feeling stable and
43:57
loved and like they had a good solid foundation of parenting is it necessary to tour as much as you do
44:05
financially no not financially I'm fine that I'm fine because of that first album yeah if I was
44:11
coming up today in the music industry I'd be screwed because records don't sell but luckily 20
44:17
years ago they used to so I was able to buy a house and I'm fine no I mean I love it it's I
44:24
absolutely love touring like it's always been my favorite part of the job and this last tour
44:29
because it's been the anniversary of my first album the 20th anniversary so we've done the show
44:34
in two halves it's my new album first half my first album second half and it's just been I just
44:41
feels like when I get off stage I feel like it sounds so cheesy but it feels like this is what I'm
44:48
meant to do you know you know when you just feel like you're in the right place doing what you were
44:53
meant to do and somehow I've been born I've been somehow I was born with the ability to write
45:00
songs that connect with people and that feels so good especially when their songs that are just
45:05
that are about really really hard moments in life that I feel like a story's people need to hear
45:11
so that they cannot feel so alone so it feels like I'm actually doing something good
45:15
in the world which is a nice change because all through my 20s I felt like some writing was so
45:20
selfish and pointless so I feel like I finally come to a place now where I feel like I'm actually
45:26
contributing something positive in the world so I love it um why did you feel it was selfish and
45:32
pointless I don't know I guess I just felt like I didn't realize the impact that my music was making
45:41
I think looking back now and hearing so many stories 20 years later about the impact that my first
45:46
album had on people and how they you know it helped them get through a really difficult time in
45:52
their life or it was like you know it was their companion soundtrack to a very special time
45:59
and they'll never you know they'll never forget it now I realize that that album was important
46:04
and music is important but I think at the time it just felt like a pretty naval gazey way to
46:09
spend my days writing about you know dysfunctional relationships you're not being a tradie you're
46:15
not building anything yeah exactly there's nothing nothing tangible I'm not you know feeding the
46:20
poor yeah I'm just singing about you know my stupid adolescent broken heart it's so funny isn't it
46:27
I remember my grandfather talking about you know I would you know when I started first
46:32
you're getting success in in writing and broadcasting I would go over to New Zealand where he lived
46:38
and like you know tell him what I'm doing and he would not understand how you could get paid
46:44
good money for like being an assistant writer on a television show so he would like listen to what
46:51
I'm doing with my life and then just start talking about another grandson of his who was making money
46:58
like in the construction industry yeah because like you know there wasn't a building and now there's
47:04
a building yeah so he gets money for that and that's good money like whereas what am I doing
47:09
with his words on a page where does that even go someone says them and then it disappears into
47:13
the yeah the radio waves go out what are you talking about yeah too confusing yeah I mean I was
47:18
always really socially conscious from a young age too so I was all about you know saving the planet
47:23
you know right my dream when I was young was literally being the head of green piece one day
47:29
and um because I just thought that that was that was just a noble way of of making a living or
47:35
not making a living but you know using your life and um so I think once I got into music and that
47:41
kind of became my career accidentally I was I just always had this thought in the back of my head
47:47
that I'm not on an anti-wailing vessel yeah yeah exactly yeah how do you feel about social justice
47:53
these days um I feel like I'm a bit torn because I know that I've been given a platform and I do
48:05
feel the responsibility and the privilege to talk about things that I feel strongly about
48:11
but I also feel a bit of pressure sometimes to think to talk about things that I might not feel
48:16
like I have um a strong opinion on or that I have anything legitimate to say I mean sometimes
48:25
I just feel like the conversation is so loud and everyone's shouting at each other online I'm like
48:30
why would I why would I contribute to that for the sake of you know virtually virtually
48:35
you signaling we don't all have to have an opinion about everything but all the time but the
48:39
vibe is that we do you do if you're if you're a person of um no totally I remember getting a
48:46
a direct message from somebody who had a lot of followers on social media which was like if
48:53
and then a clap hand clap emoji if you are not posting about Gaza every day you are betraying
49:00
like and I'm like I mean it's a terrible tragedy like what do you want me to say like
49:08
how am I going to change anything by I don't know raising awareness about about some
49:14
about the most intractable geopolitical problem that has plagued the Middle East for you know
49:19
a century um but I the reason I ask about social justice specifically is because I feel like
49:23
people of our generation are maybe grow up with a slightly different a slightly more egalitarian
49:31
and universalist idea about social justice that has now been replaced by what conservatives would
49:37
call wokeness or cancel culture or something like that that there's a slightly kind of finger waggy
49:42
tone to um to virtuous causes at the moment that rubs that rubs me the wrong way slightly and that
49:51
rubs up a you know against a more tranquil and kind of generous spirit of social justice that I grew
49:59
up with yeah well there's that whole saying about tending to your own garden before you you know
50:05
I don't know what the saying is I keep starting these things and not really know
50:11
something about looking after your own garden before you start digging anyone else's yeah
50:16
something like that so I don't know I feel like for me if I if I feel like I have something to
50:24
contribute to the conversation that is that might make a tangible difference I'll say it
50:30
but if I feel pressured to shout because everyone else is shouting and I'm going to get shouted out
50:36
if I don't shout too then I I'm going to pull back and and not get involved because I don't
50:42
want to be bullied into saying yeah that's good yeah um but yeah I just for me it just feels
50:48
I'm a little bit scared of like I never go on Twitter or whatever the hell it's called now
50:54
because I went off that a long time ago because it just gets nasty so quickly and the only thing
50:59
that I'm really on is Instagram and um I feel like everyone that follows me follows me there you
51:08
know when you go on other social media platforms you get a lot of people that that can see your comments
51:13
that aren't actually following yeah they're not your people yeah so you get trolled really easily
51:17
but I feel like everybody that follows me on Instagram seems to be super lovely and um and what
51:23
about the press uh because I mean when you do interviews like this and you know I'm sure that
51:28
I mean I we we don't on this show try to grab something out of context and then shove it out
51:33
onto social media to try to get the most salacious clickbait but that would not be an uncommon
51:40
practice for other shows to do and like do you have to have a little version of yourself standing
51:47
on your shoulder whispering in your ear going oh don't talk about this I don't talk about that
51:51
because I know the Daily Mail might write a headline about it I think so I'm definitely
51:57
nowhere near as sensitive as I used to be because I think over the years I've learned that
52:04
I don't know if it's almost like the more honest you are it's I get a little bit of a high
52:10
from being super ultra honest with people that I've just met and so I tend to be really really honest
52:17
in interviews right now and I think maybe I'm making up for lost time because I was so guarded
52:22
throughout my 20s throughout those early years um but I feel like yeah I don't necessarily trust
52:32
certain media outlets but I think most of all most of the time journalists are it's in you know
52:40
they're not out to get you because they want you to return to their news page while they're out
52:44
to have another interview in the future but often it's the um it's the parasitic outlets which are
52:48
using something that you've said to another outlet like the Daily Mail yeah yeah I mean I just
52:53
don't pay any attention yeah I mean that's the other thing that was the way that's what I do I mean
52:56
the simple answer is just don't read them and they go away yeah exactly I don't I'd never read
53:01
anything about myself right really yeah no way yeah because yeah because if I go searching for
53:07
lovely flattering things I'm gonna find a lot of other stuff that I'll remember for a lot longer
53:12
than I'll remember the good it's true isn't it yeah and you can read nine positive things and one
53:16
bad thing and the one bad thing sticks with you and the nine positive you said before that when
53:22
you come off stage you feel like you know that's what you meant to be doing is it when you come off stage
53:27
or also when you're on stage like I'm interested where your head is when you're in those like moments
53:37
of flow and connectedness yeah I'm absolutely in a in a state of flow and I'm on stage not always
53:44
I mean you have good gigs and baggigs but the good ones are when you when you completely lose
53:49
track of time and you feel like everything you say to the audience just connects and you're in this
53:55
big like love suit together and yeah it's that feeling of ultra connectedness like I'm not alone
54:05
in this world and all of my deepest ugliest feelings that I'm singing to these people are being
54:13
received with love and acceptance and I feel like they can all relate to what I'm going through and
54:21
I don't know it just we don't have many opportunities for that kind of thing in our life like that's
54:27
like maybe church but I don't go to church so that sense of communion of like this it's uh
54:33
it makes me feel unlike anything else in my life when I'm on stage it makes me feel connected to
54:40
all human beings in a way that I can't doing anything else it's lovely isn't it the beautiful
54:47
thing about a musical event is that it's a church that everyone's chosen everyone there is there
54:54
because they love your music yeah you know no one was no that's right yeah they weren't forced into
55:00
it because you know that's the religion because they will come from a long line of Missy Higgins fans
55:05
yeah exactly I've been indoctrinated in church all right let's close this out with perhaps
55:12
a question as fast as the inspiration one which is like if you could say anything to your younger
55:19
like let's suppose go back to just before you broke big like when you're in your teens
55:26
what wisdom would you impart to that creature it would be something along the lines of trust
55:36
yourself and don't listen to the douche bags that are jealous of your career
55:43
but and in saying that I'm thinking about particular boyfriends that I had at the time that were
55:48
budding musicians that were so bitter about my success that they were complete
55:53
ourselves to me about mine so yeah I'd be quite specific about what people to avoid
56:02
but also yeah trust your instinct and and know that your
56:12
your music will connect with people and that you're okay all of your ugly weird uncertain feelings
56:21
are okay you'll figure it out at some point yeah something along those lines yeah I don't know
56:32
I think I'm pretty happy with how where I've ended up I feel pretty like I've moved through a lot
56:37
in the past couple of years and I feel pretty excited about the next chapter whatever that might
56:43
bring I love my kids they're bloody awesome and I'm whether I meet someone or not it doesn't
56:48
really matter to me at this point which is exactly where I wanted to get to I wanted to get to
56:53
the point where I felt like I didn't need anybody else and it's the best place to be and to meet someone
56:59
as well it is but I'm trying not to think of it in that way no no we're not instrumental about it
57:03
totally it's it's a it's an asset in its own right but it is sort of a prerequisite to
57:08
being open the importance of friends too I think that's something I've learned as I've gotten older
57:12
like my group of girlfriends are just they're they're everything to me now I didn't really have
57:19
a close group of girlfriends throughout my 20s because I was away so much and touring the world
57:25
so constantly now I feel like I've got they're the ones that are going to stick around you know
57:31
not necessarily any fleeting romance that happens to be the girlfriends that I'm still cherishing
57:37
when we're old ladies at 85 we will cure you with that cynicism towards towards fleeting romance
57:43
I still believe it so it's possible thank you miss you thank you