Latest / Beautifully Complex / 301: Helping Neurodivergent Kids Crack the Code of Thriving in a Neurotypical World, with Matt Zakreski, PsyD

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301: Helping Neurodivergent Kids Crack the Code of Thriving in a Neurotypical World, with Matt Zakreski, PsyD · Beautifully Complex

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Everybody had this meeting on how to act in middle school.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I didn't go to the meeting. I don't know how
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: to act in middle school. And it's not fair that
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: everybody else is playing by a different playbooks than me.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: It feels like everyone was playing chess and I was
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: playing checkers, which was ironic because I was playing chess
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: in middle school right. So to me, I can't make
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: the world more fair, but I can make those unspoken
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: things spoken, so at least we're leveling the playing field.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex Podcast, where I share insights
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids, straight from the trenches.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: to Beautifully Complex, everybody. I am really excited to have
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: doctor Matt Zakresky back with us for a second time
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: on the podcast to talk about his new book, which
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: is Neurodiversity Playbook. I'm so excited about this book because
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: we need to be more neuro affirming. We need for
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the world to understand the neurodivergent kids and adults that
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: are around every one of us. Right, there's so many
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: neurodvergent people. But start doctor Matt by introducing yourself and
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: let everybody know who you are and what you do.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: So I'm doctor Matt Secreski. Everybody calls me doctor Matt.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a clinical psychologist and professional speaker and podcast host
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and most importantly published author, which never gets never gets
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: tiring to say, that's for sure. And this book has
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: sort of been a long time gestating. But I called
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Mollie Isaac's McLoud over at a Gift and Unlimited last year,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: actually around this time last year, and I said, Molly,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I'm doing all these states conferences in the fall, and
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I never have a book to sell. I never anything
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: to sell. Like, how I should have a thing. It's like,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: what would I need to do to have a book
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: ready to be available to these things. Then she goes like, well,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: you need to have it done by June twenty third.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like, great, give me five months to do something
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: impossible and I'll do it. Because that's the problem with
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: the you know, the gifted ADHD brain. It's just like
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: if you give me no time frame, I'll never do
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: it right, right, I'm just like I have to, like,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: you know. So I worked at it, and I had
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: my I transcribed a bunch of my talks so I
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: would have like a lot of sort of grist for
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: the mill, and I built all that stuff in and
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: then then I looked at just the transcriptions of the talks.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I'm like, there's no through line, there's no narrative, right,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: So I sort of went back to formula, and I
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: realized that as a neurodivergent person, I've always struggled with
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: feeling out of sync to the rest of the world. Right,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: how come everybody knows what to do and I don't
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: know what to do? Did they have some meeting? Was
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: there an email I was left off of? And you know,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: it felt like they had the code and I didn't
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: have the code. So that became the through line metaphor
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: of the book. It's like, let's crack this code, right,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And it sort of winds to this idea that I
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: don't because you know, when I was posting about what
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: the my book was online, this woman jumped into my
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: comments and she's like, I don't want to see another
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: book that encourages nerdi virgin people to mask and sell
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: out who they are, and you're writing another book it's
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: doing that, And this is actually the conclusion chapter of
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: the book. I was like, am I doing that? No?
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe I don't think so. But then I realized that
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I think instead of asking neurodivigent people to pretend to
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: be a neurotypical, I'm pushing the idea of code switching. Right.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I feel very comfortable with you, Penny, right,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: so like I can be a little like my quirkier,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: more you know, neurospicy self in this space. But if
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: I'm meeting with like a superintendent and they're like, we
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: need you to come and do several thousand dollars worth
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: of PD in our district, I'm gonna be like, yes, look,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: how neurotypical I am. I am wearing a tie, I
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: am very formal, I'm not fidgeting at all, small talk
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: about sports team good. Right, But then I get my car, right,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: You've got it. Like, code switching is a social skill,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: it's a survival skill, right, And I think it speaks
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: to sort of the practical nature of interpersonal communication. But
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I also think it's very pragmatic which I think speaks
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: to a lot of neurodivergent people. You don't have to
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: do this all the time, but here's how to do
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: it when you need it. And the feedback we've gotten
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: has been really amazing and people are like, that is
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: exactly what I needed, and like, you gave me a
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: lot of concrete steps to take a lot of personal reflection.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: You made it accessible to do this thing, and I'm
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: pretty proud of that.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Awesome yeah, And it strikes me, you know, I had
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: this conversation with somebody recently and I don't remember who.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: It might have been one of my kids. But we
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: all change our forward facing persona in different environments and
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: under different expectations, So even neurotypical people. You know, I
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: was a real estate broker for a long time before
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: I was able to do this work full time, and
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: when I would meet a new client, you know, I
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: had this real estate broker hat, right, and that's how
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I show up. And then if I'm at home with
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: a friend, then I'm much more casual and maybe tell
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: personal stories right where I might not do that in
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: another time. So I know that masking is a very
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: real issue, but there is some as you're saying, there
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: is some of this sort of code switching, that's what
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: you're calling it, right, code switching that we all do.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: And so I really appreciate that you are outlining that
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: in the book for people so that they understand that
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: everybody is expected to not change how do we say this,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: not change who they are, how they appear, but show
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: up in a way that fits the environment in the situation.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's the right way to do it. And
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: like nerd divergent people tend to be what we call
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: in psychology very context independent, like the way you are
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: all the time. And in many ways that's awesome and
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: it's a great authenticity piece, but there are times where
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: being context dependent is actually a really good thing. You know.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: The example I haveven us with my clients, right is like,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: so if you're dating, you know, if you're dating somebody
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: and like you get some alone time with your significant other,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I expect you to be acting a very particular way, right,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: But if that person's parents' home and you have to
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: make the small talk with the parents, I expect you
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: to adapt your behavior to this new environment. Right, And
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: with teens that that that always tracks right. It's like, ah, yes,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: the or home time done. Yes, I very upstanding young citizen.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Take your code sir, right, And so we all do
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: it to an extent, but it's like, let's be intentional
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: about it. But if you're doing so in a way
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: that's aligned with your neurotype and you're understanding why someone
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: might need to do this in different situations, I think
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: it makes it feel more authentic. It feels more intentional
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: because I think neurodivergent people crave authenticity, right, And so
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: much of the challenge with masking and code switching in
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: general is like, I don't want to be inauthentic. Right.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: If I'm somebody who doesn't cry at funerals, I shouldn't
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: have to cry at a funeral to show that I'm sad.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: And that's absolutely true, but let's not overcorrect and show
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: and jeans and a T shirt, you know, and like
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: listening to loud like you know, Carl XCX at the funeral,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: like that is also not appropriate. Right, So there's that
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: middle ground, And you know, I'm fond of saying in
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: the therapy space, like we always seek third door solutions.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: If door one is I don't change at all door
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: two is I changed completely. The third door is what's
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: enough change to achieve compromise, And that's where we're trying.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: That's what we're trying to do.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: So how do we get intentional about helping neurodiversent kids
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: be authentic but also have success in a neurotypical world?
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that I say to
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: people often is that eighty percent of the world is neurotypical.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: The world is built for them and buy them. Right.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: So I can't write a book for neurotypical people on
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: how to treat neurodivision people better because they're not going
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: to read it. You know, as we build up this movement,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: as we create that critical mass, we're having more conversations,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: more neurodivergent, affirming conversations, and I think we're starting to
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: see it happened in more places. But I've got a
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: lead with skill set for this community as we rise
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: in number and awareness and power. Frankly, you know, so
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: I think naming the rules of the game help us
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: play better because you know, we know that neurodivigent people
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: tend a very strong sense of justice. Right, it's not fair.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I won't do it. Yes, and a lot of that
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: unfairness was, you know, to go back to the original idea,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: It's like everybody had this meeting on how to act
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: in middle school. I didn't go to the meeting. I
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: don't know how to act in middle school. And it's
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: not fair that everybody else is playing by a different
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: playbook than me. It feels like everyone was playing chess
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: and I was playing checkers, which was ironic because I
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: was playing chess in middle school, right, So to me,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: I can't make the world more fair, but I can
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: make those unspoken things spoken, So at least we're leveling
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: the playing field. And then I think people feel like, Okay,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: I may like the game, but at least now I
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: know the rules of the game, and I will do
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: my best to play it.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And how do we help our kids define those rules?
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Because our instinct as a neurotypical parent is to try
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: to help our kids fit, right, because that feels like
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: the solution when they don't fit because they're in a
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: system that isn't built for them or a world that
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: isn't built for them. But that's not the solution, that's
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: not a good answer, that's masking, right, And so how
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: do we help them set up the rules of the
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: game that are neuroaffirming and are true to their authentic selves,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: but also help them to achieve success. How do we
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: figure out, even like kid by kid, where that is?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Where do we start?
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: So I think it's that intersection between what are the
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: spaces that you feel best in and how much access
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: can we give you to those spaces and people. So
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: one of the examples I talked about in the book was,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: you know, in high school, I played you know, varsity
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: soccer and I did musical theater. So I was like,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I lived in two worlds. I was. I was, you know,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: the prototypical Finn Hudson from Glee, except Finn can't dance
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: and I can dance and Fin can sing, but I
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: couldn't sing, so you know, it's fine. And I would
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: be on the bus to away games. I have my
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: discmand because it was the nineties, and I would be
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: listening to Broadway mixes and living in terror that if
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: any of the other guys on the soccer team found
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: out about that, they would have road mob butt forever.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: They would have never let me hear the end of it. Yeah,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: So the context independent neurodivergent person to me is like,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: that's right, I'll play my Jesus Christ Superstar as loud
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: as I am. Well please, But that's that's authentic, but
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: it's also dangerous and I don't want to sit there
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: and make a kid pretend to love, you know, Biggie
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Smalls if they don't love Biggie Smalls. Right, So the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: middle ground is like, how do you do the best
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: version of you in that space? And then how do
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: I give you spaces that are more affirming? Because then
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I could show up a theater rehearsal and be like,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: oh my god, guys, I just heard the best remix
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: of XYZ song and that was affirmed and valued, and
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: I felt comfortable with those people. So what the research
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: shows is if you give a neurodivergent person a space
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: where they feel comfortable, they can be as close to
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: their authentic self as possible. Then the knowledge of that space,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: it's like playing tag and knowing there's base right, like
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: it changes how you feel about the circumstance. It allows
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: you regulate your emotions, especially your anxiety. If you know
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: there is a safe place you can return to right
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and to echo what you said before. Sometimes we are
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the safe space for our kids, Like we're the only
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: safe space they have and that will carry them forward
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: for a while. But we need to give them community spaces,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: whether it's gifted kid club or you know, e sports
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: or cty one of the gifts at summer camps. Maybe
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: it's finding a school that works when they're diversent kids. Right,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: one of my kids that I work with, you know,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: we've just enrolled him in Fusion Academy and it's just
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: the best possible fit for his neurotype. Right. He just
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: feels more affirmed in that space.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: So it's amazing.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: You know. People will often say to me as a therapist, like, well,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: should my kids see you more for therapy? And I'm like,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: the best things we can do for these kids is
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: actually an environmental intervention, way more so than just doing
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: more therapy, right, because we want the spaces that our
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: kids find ourselves in to fill their cups, right, not
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: drain them. And the more those spaces we find, the happier,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: more regulated kids you're going to.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Have mm hmm.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: So if they don't find their community, then they're going
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: to need a lot of therapy for a long time, right.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: But finding their community means that they're with their people
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: and they feel good about who they are and they
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: are just having a better time in the world. Right.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: And what keeps coming to mind for me as you're
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: talking is a sense of felt safety, Like you were
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: describing on the bus with the other guys on your
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: soccer team, You're listening to musicals, and you didn't feel
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: socially safe for them to find out that you were
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: listening to musicals, right, And so you were taking an
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: action that made you feel safer in that environment. And
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: so often I think we forget about focusing on that
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: felt safety, that social safety, that mental safety, emotional safety.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: And you know, even when we are trying to push
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: for fitting, we're actually making them feel less safe in
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: those ways.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, And like one of the things that we
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: need to also, it's one of the hardest things for
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: us to manage his parents, is that like we can
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: overcorrect on safety as well, Like if our kids always
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: feel safe, then actually we're not inoculating them to the world,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: because the world is challenging at best and unsafe at worst. Right. Yeah,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: you know, like I was about the line from Finding
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Nemo where you know, Dori says tomorrow and like well,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: if nothing ever happens to him, nothing's ever going to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: happen to him. And that is the I mean, that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: is the absolute truth. Right. I'm not saying those bus
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: rides were pleasant, but it did teach me some important lessons, right,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: And I think parceling out the right amount of challenge
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to our kids becomes increasingly our job as parents. It's
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: like safety matters, but safety plus growth is where it
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: is what we're headed. Right, Yes, yeah, Like you could
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: lock your kid in the basement and make them homeschool
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: and they never see anybody, you turn off the internet, like, yeah,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: they will be very safe. They will also not be
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: a functional adult, right, and preasingly if you talk to educators,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: we're seeing kids who are teens, but not functionally teens, right.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Teens who don't know how to tie their shoes, kids
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: who don't know how to send an email, you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: kids who burst out crying in the hallway at school
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: because they're going to be one minute late to class
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: because they've never developed the resiliency skills to manage those moments. Right.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Life is unpleasant. We can't run from that. We want
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: to find places that we can feel pleasant and give
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: us the tools to manage the unpleasantness when it shows up.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and thank you so much for saying we can
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: overcorrect with safety or protection because I was definitely that
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: parent for a very long time until I learned that
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I over correcting and that if kids don't have to
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: go through hard things, they don't learn how to go
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: through hard things, and they tend to try to avoid
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: them when you do that. So it's super important not
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: to ever correct. I love that challenge and safety and
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: also growth, like those three things need to be in balance.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Can we talk a little bit about how to help
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: our kids find their community because I talk to so
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: many parents who struggle with this because when they go
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: to school, they're put in a room randomly with a
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: set of kids. They tend to see those kids more
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: than other kids, and so they haven't really found their
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: people in an organic way. So how do we help
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: them make those connections?
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Oh? Boy, that's the question, right. It's a big one, right,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and for some big questions. So what I tell parents
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: all the time is lead with interests, right, Like, one
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: of the mistakes we make as parents is that we
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: assume our kids will like the same things that we like,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: or they will engage in in those things the same
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: way that we did. You know, I grew up playing
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: a lot of recreational sports in my town, like I played,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: you know, rec basketball, rec baseball, rec soccer, you know,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: rec hockey, and here in the town that I live
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: in now, the rex sports situation is a lot different
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: than in my town. It's a little bit more competitive,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: and it's harder to break into and like, frankly, it's
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: not the right fit for my kids right now. May
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: they get into it someday, maybe I don't know, I'd
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: like them too, right, But I'm not raising a little Matt.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I'm raising my kid who has some of me in it,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: but also some of my wife, in a very different situation,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: in a very different town, in a very different time
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: in human history. So if you're it tells you I
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: want to build websites, well, then let's find them a
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: coding club. You know, if your kid wants to live
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: action role play, or if they're going to be a LARPer,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: then we find LARPing. Right. You know, behavior is communication.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: When kids show us what they like, that is a
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: window into meeting them, into getting to know their soul. Right,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: And that's how we're going to really connect with them
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and find those communities. And it's amazing how often parents
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: will be like, my kid really loves minecraft, so I
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: want them to be a boy scout. It's like, I
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily see how those things connect, right, you know, No,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: it's important to not just blindly do what if our
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: kids tell us to. But you know, if our kids
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: are telling us something, what's the version of that we
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: can find for them, because that's often where we're going
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to see the best growth.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: M I have this conversation around gaming so often with
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: parents too. All my kid wants to do is game,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: be online, be on a computer. Okay, well, how do
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: we expand on that if that's their interest. There's a
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: million ways to expand on that. There's coding, there's art,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: there's ux design right, designing a game, designing the experience
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: of the game, there's electronics classes, there's like, there's a
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: million ways that you could expand on that and make
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the time more practical or whatever we're trying to do
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: with the gaming thing with our kids. But they're saying,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: this is where I feel comfortable, This is where I
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: feel competent, this is where I feel confident. So how
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: do we bring that into other parts of life? Right?
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying?
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Absolutely? You know, and you said two of my favorite words,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: competent and confident.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Right, I mean everything.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: You know, if your kid got invited to a pool
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: party and they ain't know how to swim, it would
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: be hard for them to feel confident at the pool
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: party because they don't have the competent to swim. So
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: we can either build our kids confidence or we can
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: build their competence. But it's cool that one will influence
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: the other. And you know, social skills are a skill set.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: They are a thing you can become more competent at.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: So you know, the more we lean into that and
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: we put kids into spaces, they're going to build those
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: skills resiliency, communication, frustration, tolerance, grit, all those great soft skills,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: then they're going to be able to navigate more situations.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: And you look back at your kid and like, my
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: kid's handling thing today that they could not have handled
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: three years ago. And that's our job. That's what we
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: are trying to get our kids to do. Right. You know,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: my kids are really strong swimmers. You know, probably this
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: summer at the pool, we won't have to have a
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: little string that's like here's the deep end, here's the
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: shallow end. Right. But we brought them along intentionally to
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: this place, right, We're not just saying, ah, you're older now,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: you can probably swim right, right. And so much of
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: this echoes the neurodivergent journey because we do develop asynchroneously. Right,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: So a lot of the you know, the expectations for
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a kid's age, Well, a ten year old should be
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: able to do this. Well, this ten year old is
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: doing particle physics in their spare time, but it's still
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: struggling to tie their shoes and can't catch the ball
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: in gym class. They're not a typical ten year old.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: So we need to meet that ten year old at
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: all the spaces of their life to give them the
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: best interventions to move forward. M.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes it's not trying to bring them up
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to age level in different skills or whatever. Sometimes they
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: need more challenge beyond their age group. You know, a
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: lot of our neurodivergent kids are twice exceptional, and so
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: they need challenge of thinking and things like that. But
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: then they can also need special and support and learning
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: support that can happen in the same kid, and it
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: does very often. What else do we need to know
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: about the Neurodiversity Playbook?
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: You know, I think the thing that really drives me
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: up a wall when I read these books, and it's
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: the same thing that drives me up a wall when
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I go to conferences and professional develop things, is that
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: if you give me uninformed practice, it's like, well, just
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: do this, Well, why should I do this? What's the
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: research behind it, what's the theory? Tell me why it works?
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Or you get all theory, no suggestions, feature sold else.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I'm like, let's say I've seen all the theory, all
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the presentations. Just tell me something that works. Give me
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: a thing I can do with my kids. Right. So, yeah,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: you know what we tried to do with the playbook,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and that the reason I decided to call it the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: playbook was that it's filled with practical things that you
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: can do at home, you can do in your community,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: you can do with your family. These are things like
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: tangible skills that you can practice and bring into the world.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I have a whole section on there on how to
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: do small talk right, not just hey, just get more
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: comfortable with it, right, right, It's like, so much of
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: the advice here is like, have you tried not being anxious? Like, well,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: golly gee, if that was an option, I wouldn't need
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: my job. So I think what we're doing here is,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: you know, like, here's what small tuck is, here's how
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: to do it effectively, and here's how to move on
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: with your life if it doesn't work out. You know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: because I have been described several times in my professional
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: roles as aggressively pragmatic. And this is where being aggressively
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: pragmatic works for me, because I'm like, hey, kids, as
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: long as it works and I can give you a
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: justification for doing it, let's do it. And there's something
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: really powerful about being able to say to somebody, yeah,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I got you, I can help you do this thing. Yeah.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: I think there's something powerful too about saying if you
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: never quite get it, it's okay, yeah, right, Like we
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: need that. And I think neuroti virgin or anybody who
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: has difference as needs that ex uptence of who they are.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Let's give them the code to navigate with success. But
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: also the I'm not going to say permission, the ability
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: to be who they are, right, that's so important. Can
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: you tell everybody doctor Matt, where they can find you online,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: where they can find the book.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I have two primary roles, right. So my
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: therapy practice is the Neurodiversity Collective, and we just hired
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: some new people. We're seeing more patients. We're very happy
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: about that. So I would say it's like, if you
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: think you need me for you as a person, then
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: that's the Neurodiversity Collective. We will find you a therapist
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that works for you. If you think what I'm talking
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: about in terms of neurodiversity practice and skill set and
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: culture building makes sense for your organization, then it's doctor
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Mat Sucreski dot com. Because I can do all my
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: song and dance for your organization. It's just a little
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: bit different than doing it for therapy. And then the
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: book is available on Amazon and it's also available at
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Gifted Unlimited Press dot com. If you punch it in
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: there you'll see it. You can order it through the website.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: And if you happen to come across me in one
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: of my many travels, whether I'm speaking at a conference
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: or at one of the various airports I tend to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: live in these days, I usually have a couple of
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: copies on me and I can sell them to you directly.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So oh and we're working on the audiobook too. That's
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: very exciting because we know our nerdivergent folks love to
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: let's do an audio book at one and a half
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: time speed, right. You know my voice always sounds a
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: little bit like Alvin from the Chipmunks, like yeah, I
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: mean it's I mean, like, honestly, when it came out,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I said, I just want someone who isn't my dad
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: to buy this book because I didn't my dad was
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: going to buy like twenty copies, which he did, of course.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: But like having people contact you on social media or
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: send you an email, it's like I listen to your
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: podcast and I need to buy your book. How do
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: I do that. I'm like, bend mo me this amount
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: of money and I will mail you a book. And
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: then that happens. Like I'm on a first dame base
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: with everybody in my post office. Now they're like, oh,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: you guys, more books talk about I'm like, I am,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: it's weird, but I really believe we've created something good
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: here and people have been so enthusiastic about it. It's
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: been a privilege to share in that journey, and you
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: know I'm going to ride that way for as long
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: as I can. I suppose m hmm.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: You're doing such great work and I appreciate it so much.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: You're changing lives and helping ner divergent folks and it's
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: really important stuff. I'm going to link everything you just
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: said up in the show notes for folks so it'll
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: be easy access at PARENTINGNHD and Autism dot com Slash
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: three zero one for episode three hundred and one, and
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I will see everybody on the next episode and take
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Behavior Revolution dot com.