Latest / Ministry Minded / Troubled Consciences and the Comfort of Grace with Jonathan A. Linebaugh

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Troubled Consciences and the Comfort of Grace with Jonathan A. Linebaugh · Ministry Minded

• 0:12
  I'm so delighted to share this episode with you as I got to
• 0:14
  interview and talk with
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: and really just connect with
• 0:31
  author and theologian and scholar,
• 0:35
  Jonathan Linebaugh,
• 0:36
  Jono Linebaugh,
• 0:37
  as he's often known.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Jono and I,
• 0:40
  I've known of Jono's teaching ministry and writing ministry for
• 0:44
  a long while,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: and I've read a lot of what he has published and put out,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: and I was just so excited to get to talk with him and interview him,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: especially about his new book,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: The Well That Washes What It Shows.
• 0:58
  The Well That Washes What It Shows is just a fantastic book
• 1:02
  that engages the whole
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  SPEAKER_00: entirety of Scripture through the lens of the law and the gospel.
• 1:10
  But really,
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  he uses this awesome lens of a well that washes what it shows.
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  SPEAKER_00: It exposes our need and then washes us.
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  SPEAKER_00: from those needs with the very blood of Christ.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the law that reveals that we need Christ,
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  SPEAKER_00: that then draws us,
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  SPEAKER_00: then we are brought to Christ through the announcement of the gospel.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we get into all of that.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: We get into all of that,
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  SPEAKER_00: plus we talk about the Protestant Reformation,
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  SPEAKER_00: we talk about Thomas Cranmer,
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  SPEAKER_00: one of the
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  SPEAKER_00: Jono seems to have an affinity for Thomas Cranmer in the way that he has
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: articulated the gospel throughout church history.
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  But we just had a fantastic time talking about all things
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  theology and grace,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially understanding grace through the lens of incongruity.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: And why is that so important?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I just had a fantastic time talking with
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  SPEAKER_00: Jonathan Linebaugh.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you're going to enjoy this episode too.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure you stick around.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Stick around for the whole thing.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: We just had such an enjoyable conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know you're going to be blessed by this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And make sure at the end you pick up his book,
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  SPEAKER_00: The Well That Washes What It Shows,
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  SPEAKER_00: because I know you will be blessed and delighted by it.
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  SPEAKER_00: So enjoy this conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sit back and relax.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I pray that you're blessed by it.
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  as we are saying beforehand,
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  Jono or Dr.
• 2:34
  Linebaugh,
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  I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy that you're here and that we can just chat for a little bit.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so for any of our listeners that may not be familiar with you,
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  SPEAKER_00: just right at the top,
• 2:46
  can you just kind of introduce yourself and kind of where
• 2:48
  you're located and what's
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  SPEAKER_00: keeping you busy these days?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Really good to be here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Glad we're getting a chance to
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  SPEAKER_01: have this conversation.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'll work backwards briefly right now.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm at Beeson Divinity School,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is the Divinity School of Sanford University,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is in Birmingham.
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  SPEAKER_01: Been here for three years.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm the Anglican Chair of Divinity.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're an interdenominational divinity school.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we've got people representing the Baptist tradition,
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  SPEAKER_01: Methodist tradition,
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  SPEAKER_01: Lutheran tradition,
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  SPEAKER_01: Presbyterian tradition,
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  SPEAKER_01: Anglican tradition.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I'm mainly a professor of New Testament and Christian theology.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I've been doing for
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: gosh, the better part of the last two decades before coming here.
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  SPEAKER_01: I spent most of my academic life in the UK and my ministerial life,
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  SPEAKER_01: therefore,
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  SPEAKER_01: in the Church of England.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was at the University of Cambridge as a professor for seven years.
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  SPEAKER_01: I did doctoral work at Durham University in the UK.
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  SPEAKER_01: In many ways, it's where
• 3:43
  My family still feels like we're from because my kids basically
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  grew up there,
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  but we're getting used to the American South and loving it in
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  many ways and missing
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  SPEAKER_01: England in many ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: But really glad to be here.
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  And when I say family,
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  that's three kids who are about to be 18,
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  16 and 14 and my wife,
• 4:00
  Megan.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, fantastic.
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  What is has been the biggest difference between the academic
• 4:08
  life in the UK and
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  SPEAKER_00: academic life in the States?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you focused on academic life.
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  Before you said that,
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  I was going to say owning a car and not walking everywhere.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's not really the biggest difference of academic life,
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  SPEAKER_01: though it does affect the rhythms of your days.
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  SPEAKER_01: In some ways, the biggest difference isn't so much a UK-US difference.
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  It's the difference between being at a sort of major research
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  university and being
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  SPEAKER_01: at a divinity school.
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  who a very major part of our kind of ethos and mission is
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  educating people,
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  SPEAKER_01: informing people for pastoral ministry.
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  SPEAKER_01: So one of the biggest differences in the UK,
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  SPEAKER_01: and one of the reasons I was open to leaving Cambridge,
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  SPEAKER_01: even though we loved it in so many ways,
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  SPEAKER_01: is there was a little bit of a disconnect between my academic questions,
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  SPEAKER_01: which are also always personal and pastoral questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I do history, I do...
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  SPEAKER_01: linguistic and cultural analysis,
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  but I'm almost always doing it from some fundamental question
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  and towards the
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  SPEAKER_01: horizon of preaching and pastoral care.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't feel like in the classroom,
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  SPEAKER_01: in a research university,
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  SPEAKER_01: I could bring those fully together.
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  I always felt the disconnect between my writing and my teaching
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  and being at Beeson
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  SPEAKER_01: Divinity School,
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  SPEAKER_01: those questions are often the ones nearest the surface.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  so I feel like my research and my own pastoral vocation and the
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  reason students are
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  SPEAKER_01: receiving education here,
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  that Martin Luther has this great treatise from 1518 called an
• 5:36
  inquiry into truth
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  SPEAKER_01: for the sake of comforting troubled consciences.
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  And I felt at Cambridge,
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  I was really getting to do the inquiry into truth.
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  And here I'm really getting to do an inquiry into truth for the
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  sake of ministry to
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  SPEAKER_01: troubled consciences.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's the biggest difference between my two settings and it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's really,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's really life giving.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's really fascinating just to how you've analyzed that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think there I've talked with other, you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: seminary professors and whatnot,
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  and just talking about there is this seeming divide between
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  academic theology,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
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  SPEAKER_00: and theology on the ground,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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  SPEAKER_00: or theology for the pew.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what is it for you,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe perhaps,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you've kind of seen this maybe firsthand,
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  what is it about studying theology that essentially
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  necessitates the move towards
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  like what you're saying,
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  troubled consciousness or pastoral ministry,
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  so to speak.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  So I think the divide and the separation you're talking about
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  is a real thing on
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  SPEAKER_01: the ground,
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  but I actually think it's artificial and against the grain of
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  what theology
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  SPEAKER_01: actually is.
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  So my own interest in theology and study and doing research and
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  things that led to
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  academic degrees were almost all questions that were keeping me
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  up at night.
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  or questions that were making contact with people's actual sort
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  of regret and loss
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  SPEAKER_01: and grief and shame and sin and pain.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the origin of my academic studies was very personal and pastoral.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose in God's mercy,
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  the things I've studied in the context I've been in have
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  allowed those knots to
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  SPEAKER_01: stay pretty closely tied.
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  The question is why they drift apart so much and how we can
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  bring them back together.
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  I think what I would just want to say is theology is sort of
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  most fully itself when
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  SPEAKER_01: it emerges from in its primary form is the things that are happening,
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  SPEAKER_01: for example,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we gather to worship.
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  The primary forms of theology are what God is saying to us as
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  God speaks through
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  SPEAKER_01: the word of Scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: through the words of sermons,
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  SPEAKER_01: as God ministers to us.
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  SPEAKER_01: his promises as we gather.
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  And then the first language of theology that we speak back to
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  God is prayer.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's proclamation, it's praise.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the academic part of theology is not more important than that.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the fundamental thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: What academic theology does is carefully,
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  SPEAKER_01: prayerfully,
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  studiously attend to our language of proclamation or our
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  language of praise so that
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  SPEAKER_01: our worship doesn't drift toward idolatry,
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  SPEAKER_01: And our proclamation doesn't,
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  SPEAKER_01: as Paul says in Galatians,
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  SPEAKER_01: preach another gospel,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is in fact no gospel.
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  So that what we actually say when we open our mouth and witness
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  and in worship is
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  SPEAKER_01: the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and not something else,
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  SPEAKER_01: and is praise to the God who is Father,
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  SPEAKER_01: Son,
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  SPEAKER_01: and Holy Spirit and not someone else.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think academic theology has its role as a kind of servant for the
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  SPEAKER_01: proclamation and praise of the church.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is supposed to be just that,
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  SPEAKER_00: like a servant,
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  SPEAKER_00: a tool,
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  or a helpful way in which we can get a fuller window or a
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  fuller view of what this
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  SPEAKER_00: theology actually means for,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you mentioned,
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  SPEAKER_00: those moments of pain and grief and loss.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we can ask those highfalutin questions, if you will.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think what's fascinating to me as I've
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  SPEAKER_00: dabbled into both.
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  I just finished my master's and so I'm familiar with that part
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  of academic theology
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  SPEAKER_00: and then serving as a pastor at the same time.
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  What's fascinating to me is as much as we can write about and
• 9:21
  there's still essays
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  and academic journals being written and peer reviewed and it's
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  amazing and I love
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  SPEAKER_00: soaking that up.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's actually interesting that the same group of scholars
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  SPEAKER_00: can understand the scriptures for that purpose.
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  And it can be also understood by a five-year-old who hears the
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  proclamation of that
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  SPEAKER_00: same gospel,
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  which I think is what makes scripture so endlessly compelling
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  is that it speaks to
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  SPEAKER_00: both ages,
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  SPEAKER_00: both,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: levels of intellect or insight.
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  And again,
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  it's a,
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  it's a,
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  it's a testament to the way in which the word is inspired and
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  it is
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  SPEAKER_00: carried along by the Holy Spirit into people's hearts and souls,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I just find amazing and fascinating all at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's really beautifully said.
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  SPEAKER_01: Scripture is the kind of gift that you can always go deeper.
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  SPEAKER_01: It never grows old.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's ever youthful, as some older theologians used to say.
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  It always speaks afresh and anew,
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  and yet it is also profoundly accessible.
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  SPEAKER_01: The
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Christian traditionists like to talk about the clarity of Scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: which doesn't always mean that every page or every sentence is obvious,
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  but that the message God is speaking and the fact that it is
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  God who's speaking,
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  SPEAKER_01: and so Scripture will accomplish its purpose.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Word of God will go forth.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Word of God is living and active,
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  SPEAKER_01: and you don't need a book about the Bible to read the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet...
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  one of the ways we can go deeper into the Bible is by thinking
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  about it with others
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  SPEAKER_01: and reading what others have said about it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And both of these things can be true at the same time.
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  Isn't that the,
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  the old word purpose cuity,
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  which means clarity,
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  but it's not a clear word.
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  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is why I avoided it, but.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I always found that funny.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've,
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  SPEAKER_00: you've kind of answered the question though,
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  SPEAKER_00: just the,
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  SPEAKER_00: the evergreen gift of the word,
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  SPEAKER_00: but what,
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  SPEAKER_00: And also your own questions have sort of stimulated that,
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  SPEAKER_00: those sort of academic research projects or whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: But what is it that kind of keeps you engrossed
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  in research,
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  uh,
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  maybe in,
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  in things that you've already researched before.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know you've written a lot about Paul's letters already,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the past,
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  SPEAKER_00: just,
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  SPEAKER_00: and maybe you can just flesh it out.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've already answered it,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: but what,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: what is it that kind of keeps you like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to go back to Galatians two and,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: and research more about that and flesh this out more,
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  SPEAKER_00: even more so.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  I think there's a couple layers to this and I think that's part
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  of the reason why
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  SPEAKER_01: everyone's
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  SPEAKER_01: calling won't look identical,
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  SPEAKER_01: and not everyone's going to want to spend their whole life,
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  SPEAKER_01: even if their life is a loving and returning to Scripture,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: necessarily writing,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: journal articles about Galatians 2 over and over again,
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  SPEAKER_01: which seems to be something I enjoy doing.
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  SPEAKER_01: But so one thing is just sort of passions and love.
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  SPEAKER_01: I love the Greek language.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love ancient Mediterranean culture.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: I've spent some of my life
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  SPEAKER_01: in the world of classics.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that just brings me a lot of joy.
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  So part of it is,
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  this is one of the places where I come alive and enjoy doing.
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  SPEAKER_01: It feels like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: when I was a kid,
• 12:38
  I liked to go play with my friends and now I like to hang out
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  with my friends.
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  SPEAKER_01: Most of them have been dead for 2000 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I do it in the form of, you know, reading.
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  So there's that,
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  but that's not the deepest reason why I returned to those
• 12:50
  things.
• 12:50
  That might be part of discerning a vocation to keep returning
• 12:54
  to the text in this
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: particular academic form.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what actually brings me back to the text is both that my questions,
• 13:02
  my honest human questions are new every morning and God's
• 13:07
  mercies are new every
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  SPEAKER_01: morning.
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  And the good news of God's love for us in Jesus Christ is not
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  the kind of news that
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  SPEAKER_01: we need to hear one time sort of.
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  SPEAKER_01: pack away, and then move on from.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's precisely the kind of thing that we need to hear today.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today is the day of salvation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's true every single today.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to hear the good news yesterday, today, and forever.
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  And I come to Scripture in the moments where I'm sort of being
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  clear and honest and
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  SPEAKER_01: in touch with those needs.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when I
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  SPEAKER_01: I turn to Galatians 2 to take an example,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I am again asking the question,
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  SPEAKER_01: do I have to carry the kind of burden of my own being enough?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is my being loved based on my own biography?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I hear both a word that understands that we often live that way,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: when Paul talks about being righteous on the basis of works of law,
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  He gets that we have a tendency to think that we're carrying
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  the weight of our being enough.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet what he says is,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live,
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  SPEAKER_01: but Christ lives in me in the life I live in the flesh.
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  SPEAKER_01: I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's something that every time I read that sentence,
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  it's like I'm following the finger of John the Baptist and I'm
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  being pointed away
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  SPEAKER_01: from myself with my biggest questions.
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  And I'm being pointed to the lamb of God who takes away the
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  sins of the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when I look and see that lamb of God,
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  SPEAKER_01: he's saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm the son of God who loves you and who gave myself for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's who you are.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I never stopped needing to hear that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I feel sort of lucky and blessed every day to have a vocation,
• 15:01
  which means I get to open these texts and read that again and
• 15:04
  find ways to explore
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  SPEAKER_01: it and share it and preach it and write about it and do various things.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But there's never a sense in which I'm not also doing it for myself.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: there's that question from Paul to the Corinthians,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: what do you have that you did not receive?
• 15:19
  And I sort of feel like whatever crumbs I've been able to offer
• 15:24
  in terms of my
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: ministry,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's writing,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: teaching,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: preaching,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: or pastoral care,
• 15:30
  they've just been kind of distributing the gifts that I've both
• 15:34
  needed and have
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: received from the grace of God that is the gospel.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a
• 15:40
  us saying and sharing what has been said and ministered to you
• 15:43
  through scripture
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: and the power of the spirit.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: That that's so well said.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it speaks to me only because it's,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor who lives in the word,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: but also the word is kind of like my hobby.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I love writing about theology too.
• 15:59
  So there's this blurred line between what I do as a vocation
• 16:03
  and what I do just
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: because like you,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I resonate and I'd love to swim in those waters.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as well,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: it's reminiscent of that,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: it may or may not be an apocryphal quote from Luther,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: but I preach the gospel every day because I forget it every day.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of sentiment is very much alive for me all the time.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I would echo what you said,
• 16:26
  like most of the stuff that I write or preach about is because
• 16:28
  I know I need to
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: hear it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I need to hear that word of promise being given and re-given,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: not just once,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: but every day because my soul yearns for it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also...
• 16:40
  reminded of and i've tried to in different settings and venues
• 16:44
  with my congregation
• 16:45
  to emphasize the fact that the humans that wrote the scriptures
• 16:52
  but also the humans
• 16:53
  that received the scriptures originally were no different than
• 16:56
  the humans that um
• 16:57
  exist right now um maybe different times and different cultures
• 17:01
  you know they
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: weren't
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: wrestling with,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: what was happening in Ukraine or,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: how to navigate TikTok as a Christian,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: but they had the same sort of existential crises that we feel,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: this longing for enoughness.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: They may have used different language to communicate that,
• 17:17
  but that's why the scriptures are so adept and they're so
• 17:22
  timeless and relevant,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: only because they come from
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: God himself,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: but also because they speak to these timeless human problems,
• 17:29
  the timeless human condition known as sin and the weight that
• 17:33
  that carries.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's so helpful is that they're not archetypal.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: The humans that wrote and received the words of Scripture,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: 2000 years ago,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: as you mentioned,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: were not just archetypes.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't just figures that were meant for us.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't sort of characters from Aesop's fables that
• 17:54
  They were real flesh and blood humans who had flesh and blood
• 17:56
  problems that needed
• 17:58
  the flesh and blood Christ to resolve them and give them
• 18:02
  resolution and peace,
• 18:03
  which I find to be the most compelling but also comforting
• 18:08
  thought that Paul wasn't
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: writing necessarily to different problems.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the same ones just,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:16
  we have the same problems just remixed over and over again
• 18:18
  throughout the decades.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what keeps me going because it's the same problems.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: They need the same answer,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: and they have the same answer,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is Christ alone given to them,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: endlessly compelling.
• 18:34
  When we normally talk about the Reformation,
• 18:38
  we've quoted Luther a couple times already.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think people usually are quick to resort to that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and rightly so.
• 18:46
  But maybe for you,
• 18:47
  and maybe I'm jumping the gun,
• 18:48
  but I think for you,
• 18:49
  you would—
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: want to talk about Cranmer first, is that correct?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And also,
• 18:53
  can you explain just your passion for Cranmer and kind of why
• 18:58
  maybe he's not as
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: familiar as some of the other reformers were?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 19:03
  So,
• 19:04
  I mean,
• 19:04
  I don't necessarily think of these in any particular order or
• 19:08
  prioritizing them.
• 19:10
  Thomas Cranmer was a reformer in England in the 1530s,
• 19:14
  40s,
• 19:14
  and died in the
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: 1550s.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he's the kind of main person associated with editing,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: putting together structure,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: definitely did some writing,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: or what we think of as the Book of Common Prayer,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: the main form of worship in the Anglican tradition.
• 19:37
  He was involved in the doctrinal statements,
• 19:40
  what we today call the 39 Articles of Religion.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the things that are still
• 19:45
  the definitive documents of the English Reformation have
• 19:49
  Cranmer's fingerprints
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: either all over them or on them.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 19:54
  He was a person who definitely in the 1530s was learning and
• 19:57
  listening mainly to
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: people like Martin Luther and Philip Melanchthon.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: In the 1540s, he's also learning from people like Martin Bootser.
• 20:06
  He eventually is in touch with Philip Melanchthon and Thomas
• 20:10
  and John Calvin.
• 20:12
  And so he's listening both to the Lutheran tradition and the
• 20:14
  Reformed tradition.
• 20:14
  I think that's part of what makes him interesting in the shape
• 20:17
  of the English Reformation.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting is this kind of ears open in both directions.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the
• 20:24
  peculiar and particular geniuses of Cranmer was to take some of
• 20:27
  the rhythms of
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: theology that the Reformation was articulating.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a pattern,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: in which when God first encounters a human being under sin,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: God's love takes the form of revealing that human being's need to them.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Luther would call this the ministry of the law,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: which Paul says,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: through the law comes the knowledge of sin,
• 20:51
  and Luther says that God's Word takes the form of diagnosing us
• 20:55
  in our need.
• 20:56
  And what Cranmer does in his sort of patterns of worship is
• 21:00
  he'll have these
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: rhythms in which we move through hearing the law,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: confessing our sin,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: and these moments actually play out powerfully in the worship service.
• 21:10
  There's time and space for God to do that work of unveiling,
• 21:14
  unearthing our need.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: God already sees it.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Cranmer starts one of his services by saying,
• 21:19
  Almighty God,
• 21:20
  to whom all hearts are open,
• 21:21
  all desires known,
• 21:22
  and from whom no secrets are hid.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: God already sees us and knows us fully,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: and that's Psalm 139,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: you have searched me and known me since.
• 21:30
  But God also loves us enough to bring to the surface the things
• 21:35
  that are true of
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: us,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: but that we often deny or distract from.
• 21:39
  And it's precisely at those places of need that then the gospel
• 21:45
  is proclaimed.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: The word
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: that delivers, that sets free, that declares righteous, that forgives.
• 21:52
  And so you get these rhythms in the English Reformation and the
• 21:55
  worship of having
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: our need diagnosed,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: but then these profound moments of deliverance,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: forgiveness of sin announced,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: a time for the service,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: a time for a hymn.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I think most distinctively this pattern where you say,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: hear what comfortable words our Lord Jesus Christ says.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you read four sentences from the New Testament.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Come unto me, all you who are weary.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: God so loved the world.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father.
• 22:22
  And just these announcements of the gospel in the form of Holy
• 22:26
  Scripture to people
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: at the precise point of their revealed need.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Cranmer has given
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: a gift to all churches of the Reformation,
• 22:36
  which is a pattern of English worship that gets to actually go
• 22:41
  through the
• 22:42
  experience of being ministered to by the love of God in the
• 22:45
  form of the law and the
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: gospel.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really helpful,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: and especially as Kramer kind of has put it,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: and also as you're articulating it,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: this helps us understand that
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: this law gospel paradigm that is often referred to is not just sort of a
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: hermeneutic or a homiletic exercise.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much something that the whole church as a congregation,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: a called together assembly,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: we could say experiences through the proclamation of the word.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really helpful to understand,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: especially as it's one of the themes that you unpack in your book,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: The Word of the Cross,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: where steadily and also often you refer to this notion of
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is maybe not just from Kramer himself,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: but the idea that death becomes the site of recreation.
• 23:34
  And that's kind of what's happening with the law and the gospel
• 23:37
  that in the exposed
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: need,
• 23:40
  that need is then answered and supplied and filled by the word
• 23:45
  of promise in
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Christ.
• 23:46
  And we could say in the gospel,
• 23:48
  which is very much not just a hermeneutic thing.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a homiletic thing.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much an experiential thing, right?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all of those things sort of secondarily.
• 24:00
  Of course,
• 24:00
  if this is a scriptural pattern,
• 24:02
  it's going to shape the way we read scripture.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: If it's a description of the way God works,
• 24:06
  then it's going to inform the way we proclaim the word and we
• 24:10
  pastor people in
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: their need.
• 24:12
  But if you make it fundamentally about our patterns of
• 24:17
  interpretation or our
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: patterns of ministry,
• 24:19
  what you're left doing is thinking that we're the ones who are
• 24:23
  doing this.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're
• 24:25
  When we talk about a distinction between law and gospel as two
• 24:28
  words of God,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Philip Melanchthon,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: who worked with Luther in Wittenberg,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: he liked to refer to the two words of God as the two works of God.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: He called them the opera dei,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: the works of God,
• 24:40
  making it clear that what we're actually describing here is
• 24:42
  something God does.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: When God acts, God does that through speaking.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: God's word is living and active.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: It calls worlds into existence.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: It raises the dead.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: It sets free.
• 24:52
  And law and gospel first and fundamentally name a pattern of
• 24:56
  divine action.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's something we undergo.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's something we experience.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not first and foremost something we engineer or index or control.
• 25:06
  It's something done to us by God through the living and active
• 25:10
  words that are
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: scripture or a sermon or something.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So as you say, we experience it.
• 25:14
  And I think once you make it clear that God is the subject of
• 25:17
  these verbs,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: that God is the one doing these works,
• 25:21
  then you instantly remove it from the sort of realm of the
• 25:25
  humanly controllable,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: the predictable.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 25:29
  I'll just open my Bible and I'll create an index where some of
• 25:33
  this will be law and
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: some of this will be gospel.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I don't really have to think about it anymore.
• 25:39
  We're describing something much more sort of affectively and
• 25:44
  experientially engaged.
• 25:46
  We're describing what we undergo because the living and active
• 25:48
  God speaks.
• 25:51
  We're really just trying to name that same pattern that
• 25:53
  Scripture itself testifies to.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: So think about Hannah's song.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Hannah's the mother of Samuel,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: and she sings this song that says,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: the Lord kills and makes alive.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord leads down into Sheol and brings up.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord makes poor and makes rich.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord humbles and exalts this double pattern of doing things.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or Paul in Romans 11,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: verse 32,
• 26:13
  he's been tracing the word of God that does not fail since the
• 26:17
  beginning of Romans
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: 9.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he gets to the end,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: he said,
• 26:19
  God has imprisoned all in disobedience in order that God might
• 26:24
  have mercy on all.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: God's the subject.
• 26:27
  God does two things,
• 26:29
  imprisons all,
• 26:30
  has mercy,
• 26:31
  but this double action has a clear direction.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: God imprisons in order to have mercy.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's just so much sort of richness there,
• 26:40
  so much that will inform our praise and our preaching and our
• 26:43
  pastoral care.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: But what it first and fundamentally is,
• 26:46
  is a recognition of a confession of the way God actually works
• 26:51
  in this world.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, God brings us to these sites of unveiled need.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's when there's nothing that God says, let there be light.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's when there's sin that God says, let there be righteousness.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's when there's captivity that
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: that God says, let there be freedom.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's when there's death that God says, let there be life.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this just describes the way this God works.
• 27:14
  It's about this God and this grace that meets us precisely at
• 27:19
  our points of deepest need.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And this scriptural pattern,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: this therefore pastoral pattern,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: I also think is a profound source of real comfort,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: that our points of severest need,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: our deepest sadness,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: our sort of unretrievable loss,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: our sin that we cannot shake,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: the secret that we cannot share.
• 27:45
  None of these are sites in which we're disqualified from the
• 27:49
  mercy of God.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're actually the X marks the spot where the creator,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: redeemer,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: forgiver,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: and lover God meets us in our need,
• 28:02
  and overcomes our need with a love that nothing and no one can
• 28:04
  separate us from.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's beautifully said.
• 28:08
  And it's reminiscent to me,
• 28:11
  you talked about Hannah's song,
• 28:13
  the words that kill and make alive.
• 28:16
  As a homiletician,
• 28:17
  I often think about it in terms of like the preaching setting.
• 28:21
  And I can't help but think of that moment in Jeremiah 1,
• 28:25
  where he's called into ministry and God
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: literally tells them,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have you preach these words that pluck up and that build up,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: that destroy,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: and that also plant.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that same sort of bifold pattern of the word is so prevalent there.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also what is particularly important
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: resonant to me is the fact that God perceives that by saying,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to put these words into your mouth,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: a word that Paul also references in Romans 10.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the idea,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: that as you're sort of alluding to,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: that this ministry of the word is not something that homileticians do.
• 29:03
  It's just something that we are kind of,
• 29:06
  maybe even despite ourselves,
• 29:08
  are made a part of
• 29:10
  as we declare these words in faith to people who are hopefully
• 29:14
  listening in faith,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: this is the ministry of the Spirit.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's the one who plucks up and builds up.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's the one who plants and destroys and all those sorts of things.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's the effect of the Word as part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: whereas my authority as an orator or a homiletician,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: is very minuscule in that pattern.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just God's Word's
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: speaking through me, which is, I think really relieving.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: and it should be really comforting,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: for preachers or more teachers that when they are explaining these words,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: the burden of outcomes is not on their shoulders,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's, it's, it's not due to them at all.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think you're absolutely right about that.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's, um,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: there's kind of freedom and hope,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: even when we feel the gap between real needs and our own capacities.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's also something so significant in the fact,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: take Jeremiah,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: the Lord says,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I will put my word in your mouth from the beginning of Hebrews,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: and many times and in many ways,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: God spoke through the prophets.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's also something very significant,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: and I think it's very much a form of God's love,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: grace,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: and mercy,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: that the Creator speaks to
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: creatures through other creatures.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is a description of what all of Holy Scripture is.
• 30:42
  It's the words of human authors that are the living and active
• 30:47
  words of God.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what sermons are,
• 30:49
  and this is what the form in which God makes God's promises
• 30:53
  ordinarily are the
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Creator speaking to creatures through creatures.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what that means is God speaks to us in ways that we can hear it,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: we can receive it,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: we can taste and touch it and experience it.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just
• 31:07
  abstract ideas flying above our heads,
• 31:09
  but God loves us so much that the word became flesh.
• 31:13
  And that very pattern of God's word being in flesh is also a
• 31:17
  pattern of prophecy and ministry.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's just really significant.
• 31:22
  I would also just pick up,
• 31:23
  I mean,
• 31:24
  I think the Jeremiah thing is really significant.
• 31:27
  You're going to have this double pattern with direction when I
• 31:32
  put my word in your mouth.
• 31:34
  But I think sometimes what happens because of how big some of
• 31:38
  the prophetic books
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: are,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Isaiah,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Jeremiah,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: and Ezekiel in particularly,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: and because they actually all follow this pattern more or less,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: which is the ministry of the prophets is double.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of warning.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of announcement of judgment.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Exile is coming.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And in some cases that can go on for 39 chapters or so.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: you're sort of reading it.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're studying it kind of,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: one chapter a day or a few verses a day,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: you can miss the big pattern,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: which is that in every case,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: that ministry of,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 32:13
  announced coming real judgment in need comes to a point where
• 32:22
  the announced
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: judgment actually comes to pass.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: In the case of the,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: these major prophetic books,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: it means Babylon arrives and people are taken into exile.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And at precisely that point when there seems to be no hope,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: according to Deuteronomy,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: exile is the last of the covenant curses.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: It means the curses, not the blessings have come true.
• 32:44
  But just as the book of Deuteronomy says,
• 32:46
  after exile,
• 32:48
  God will bring you back.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's this promise of blessing beyond the curses.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So in every case,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Isaiah,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Jeremiah,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Ezekiel,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: once judgment has come,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: once they're in exile,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: the whole tone changes.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And they start announcing as Isaiah says, I am doing a new thing.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Comfort my people, says Isaiah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Jeremiah talks about a new covenant.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: The law will be written on the heart.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: This will be my covenant.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I will take away their sins.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or in Ezekiel, he sees a valley of dry bones.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 33:17
  this is a point which in historical and human terms is a site
• 33:21
  of absolute no hope,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: a valley of dry bones.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: But can these bones live?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And Ezekiel says, you know, Lord.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord speaks.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: through Ezekiel and bones come alive.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: There is return.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: There is redemption.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: There is resurrection.
• 33:38
  And yet the site at which that grace and mercy is promised is
• 33:42
  the site of no hope.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it sort of sits there as this hope that's on the horizon.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: If there's going to be hope, it has to be a full return.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be redemption.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be resurrection.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Can these things be?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, the good news announced in Jesus is that these things are.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: The grave has been conquered.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: redemption has been accomplished.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness is not just promised in the future,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: but promised in a way that gives it in the present.
• 34:10
  And so I think that structure you hear in the beginning in
• 34:13
  Jeremiah's call is
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: actually the pattern of the whole book,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: and it's the pattern of Isaiah and of Ezekiel as well.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's the pattern of
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: what they were called to declare,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: but also in a way,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: profound way,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a pattern that's actually taking place in them too.
• 34:30
  I think what's so fascinating is realizing that Jeremiah was
• 34:34
  probably alive and
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: around when that reformation sort of happens in Judah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's seeing,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: I preached on that passage a couple months ago,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: and it was just so profound to like realize,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: like he's seeing Jesus,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: what this word can do when it is recovered,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:52
  they find the book of the law and you have that image of them
• 34:55
  like kind of blowing
• 34:56
  off the dust of these scrolls and it leads to a almost
• 35:00
  nationwide revival.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then very quickly that diminishes and goes away.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so Jeremiah has seen both
• 35:08
  of these reactions to this word and maybe even the calcified
• 35:12
  effects of sin on the human soul.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 35:15
  and so him being called back to those same people to declare
• 35:20
  this word was
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: certainly daunting,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: but also even in his own life and heart and soul,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: even in his own self,
• 35:28
  I think that idea of being plucked up from whatever capacity he
• 35:32
  might've thought he
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: had being the son of a priest,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: had to be affected before.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you really get the trajectory of Jeremiah's life,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: which is very much coming to the end of himself and feeling like this is,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: what am I even doing?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: What am I even saying to these people?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're not getting it.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you find like in Jeremiah 15,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: where he says,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: I found these words of God and I ate them and they became my delight.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that sort of is this very affecting image
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: of the,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: as we've talked about,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: the evergreen nature of the word,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: which is always going to be life-giving in life,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: and bearing life,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: not only in yourself,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: but in the others that you're being called to,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, just to stay on that note of
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: death as the site of recreation,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: because you talk about that a lot in the Word of the Cross,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: and especially—and I don't want to put you on the spot,
• 36:38
  but I think there is such an affecting image of that when you
• 36:43
  explained it,
• 36:43
  especially in terms of how Paul explains it by utilizing the
• 36:49
  barren womb of Sarah.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can you kind of just explain—
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: explain that imagery,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: but then also explain how it,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: it connects to that same notion of,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: of death and recreation,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: if you will.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: So this is,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: this comes up from Romans four and Romans four,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Paul is reading portions of the Abraham and Sarah narrative from Genesis.
• 37:11
  So from Genesis 12 on,
• 37:13
  and he refers to a couple of different parts of that narrative.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: He refers to Genesis 15,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: six,
• 37:19
  where it says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him
• 37:22
  as righteousness.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Paul makes a big deal of this,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: both in Romans 4 and in Galatians 3,
• 37:26
  to show that Abraham's righteousness isn't dependent on or a
• 37:32
  reward for his
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: subsequent acts of obedience,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: nor is it disqualified by his subsequent acts of disobedience.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Abraham's history has both of those.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it is something that God gives to Abraham through a promise,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: and the promise creates and is clung to by trust,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: and God calls that.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: righteousness.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul's already sort of reading the beginning of the Abraham narrative,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: but then he turns to the promise of the birth of Isaac.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in Genesis, what we know is that this seems impossible.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: It seems impossible because Abraham's about a hundred years old.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah's probably pushing 90 and she's been barren her whole life.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: But when Paul reads that, he does reference old age and
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: but he says Abraham's body is as good as dead.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: He uses the word dead.
• 38:25
  And then when he describes Sarah's womb as being barren for all
• 38:28
  these many years,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: he says that Sarah's womb was dead.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: He uses that language both.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't use the word for barrenness.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: He uses the word for deadness.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he then says,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: therefore,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: what Abraham hoped in,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: the one in whom Abraham hoped,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: was the God who gives life to the dead and
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: the God who calls into existence that which does not exist.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's Romans 4, 17.
• 38:51
  And one of the really interesting things in Romans 4 is that
• 38:57
  there's four times
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: where Paul refers to God as the God who.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: He's the God who gives life to the dead.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's the God who calls into existence that which does not exist.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: He's also right at the end of the chapter,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: the God who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: So when Paul thinks about life from the death, he's
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: metaphorically, he's thinking about the resurrection of Jesus.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he's coming to the Genesis story from the gospel of the empty tomb.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And as the dead Jesus is raised on Easter,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: so he reads Abraham's age and Sarah's barrenness,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: not just as a surprising difficult birth,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: but as an impossible instance of life where there was only death.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what Paul does,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: is he brings all these forms of God's creative grace together.
• 39:53
  So God is the one who calls into existence that which does not
• 39:59
  exist at the sight
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: of nothingness.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: God speaks and gives and creation is called into existence.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: grace.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's grace because the divine life doesn't have any lack,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't have any need,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't need creation to be full.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: God doesn't create because God has to.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: God creates because in love and mercy, God wants to.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to be in love, our God, and wants us to be his people.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so he creates in mercy and grace.
• 40:29
  Similarly,
• 40:30
  barrenness,
• 40:33
  tombs that are full of bodies,
• 40:35
  are sites in which God
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: acts in grace.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: He overcomes death with the word of love and life.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Isaac is born.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's beautiful that the birth of Isaac,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: which this is this amazing life out of death,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: this coming true of a promise when it seemed impossible,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: is when Abraham first hears that promise in Genesis 17,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: he laughs because it's so ridiculous that it could come true.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a kind of laugh of unbelief, honestly.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is impossible.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: But then when it actually does come true in Genesis 21,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: and for Paul,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: these are all parallel to,
• 41:10
  they all share the same shape of what he calls the
• 41:14
  justification of the ungodly.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: That where there is sin,
• 41:19
  God gives and speaks righteousness is the same kind of act that
• 41:25
  where there is
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: death,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: God speaks and gives life.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: And where there is nothing, God speaks and gives creation.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a consistency of God's mode of operations.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's when there is nothing,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: when there is death,
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: when there is no grounds for deserving,
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: when there's only unworthiness,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: this God gives and creates the opposite.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Freedom, where there was bondage.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Righteousness, where there was sin.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Adoption and life in a family where there was only aloneness.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Love, where there was fear.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, life where there was death.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: So all of those things seem to be
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: the pattern of God's grace, and Paul's tracing them.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's hearing them, I think, afresh in the Genesis account.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: But in part,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: he's hearing them so clearly because he's reading Genesis,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: having heard and encountered the gospel.
• 42:18
  And he sees that the same God who raised Jesus is the God who
• 42:22
  called Abraham and
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: called Isaac into existence.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what is so resonant is the fact that
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: he's doing this from the standpoint, as you said, of interpretation.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's like reading Genesis through the lens of the cross and empty tomb,
• 42:40
  which kind of brings up this notion that everything converges
• 42:45
  at those moments,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: the cross,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: empty tomb,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: and then also like expands afterwards.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like,
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: it's almost like that moment in,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: in Star Wars where Darth Vader reveals himself as Luke's father,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: spoiler alert.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can't,
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: watch anything that happens beforehand then without knowing that.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can't also watch anything after that without,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: that is the whole entire turn,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: not just cinematically,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: but then you could say the same thing about the cross and empty tune,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: everything turns on that.
• 43:18
  So now we can like Paul read the scripture with that sort of
• 43:24
  lens and understand
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: and see and notice,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: as you're saying,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: these rhythms,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: these patterns,
• 43:30
  the way God,
• 43:31
  God's mode of redemption,
• 43:33
  look at how,
• 43:34
  look at what it looks like.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like this.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then also this is going to help now.
• 43:40
  And as Paul is pastoring these churches and speaking to them in
• 43:44
  different contexts,
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: he's using all of this mode of operation.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is how it's happened before.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is how God is going to operate going forward.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think that's really helpfully said.
• 43:55
  And one of the exciting things it means,
• 43:57
  and one of the misunderstandings that you
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: want to be sure to avoid is the birth of Jesus,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: the life of Jesus,
• 44:05
  the death and resurrection of Jesus doesn't mean that
• 44:09
  everything before is so in
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: the past that it's been made somehow obsolete or irrelevant.
• 44:16
  That's not at all the pattern of the New Testament announcement
• 44:18
  of the gospel.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: The, um,
• 44:22
  the very language with which they interpret and announce the
• 44:25
  good news becomes an
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: invitation to reread the whole scriptural tradition,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: which is newly and more deeply than ever legible than it was before.
• 44:40
  It doesn't mean that it hasn't been promising and communicating
• 44:43
  and that the
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Old Testament in Israel scripture doesn't have a kind of integrity,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: but in light of the death and resurrection of Jesus,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: the patterns,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: the fulfillment of the promises,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Paul can start saying things like,
• 44:58
  when God called Abraham and said he believed God and it was
• 45:03
  counted as righteous,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: he was preaching the gospel ahead of time.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a strange thing to say,
• 45:09
  but that's something you say when you're preaching the gospel
• 45:13
  and then you hear
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: you might say, echoes of the gospel in the Old Testament.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul sort of brings these out.
• 45:22
  And just like you said,
• 45:27
  from that time,
• 45:28
  it's an invitation not to do away with,
• 45:30
  but to reread.
• 45:32
  But every rereading is now going to be attentive to these
• 45:36
  shapes of death and
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: resurrection and life at the sight of
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: of no hope or that it's dry bones in which people wind up living.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And those kinds of patterns converge around Christ.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just general patterns.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: They are specifically Jesus Christ patterns,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: which are then apparent all over Israel's scripture,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: all over the Old Testament.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: and not to just be too on the nose,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: this is exactly what you get at in your book,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: The Well That Washes,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: What It Shows,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: which
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: This seems like a prime time to talk about that.
• 46:12
  I'm really thrilled to say that I read an early copy of this
• 46:17
  book and I just
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: devoured it in two plane rides.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was on a missions trip in July to Peru.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so on the way down, I think I read half.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the way back to the States, I read the other half.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: I had a long, long flight, so I was able to do that.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I was so thrilled with this book.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks...
• 46:39
  to just you know my theological love language which is
• 46:43
  understanding scripture in
• 46:44
  light of luke 24 which i've often said is probably and maybe
• 46:50
  this is you know
• 46:51
  pastoral hyperbole but it could be probably the most important
• 46:54
  chapter in the new
• 46:56
  testament especially just understanding the shape of scripture
• 47:01
  so um yeah just take
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: a minute
• 47:03
  talk about what you are aspiring to do through The Well That
• 47:07
  Washes and kind of
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: what kind of inspired you to put the work like this together?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 47:13
  So this book,
• 47:15
  the subtitle of the book,
• 47:17
  it's called The Well That Washes What It Shows.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll explain the title in just a second.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: But the subtitle is An Invitation to Holy Scripture.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I really hope the book is.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it's an invitation.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope it doesn't become a
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: something to do instead of reading scripture,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: but it becomes a way back into scripture more deeply.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been encouraged that,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:39
  I've been talking to some various pastors in particular who
• 47:42
  have been using it.
• 47:43
  And they've said they found three kinds of people that they're
• 47:46
  giving it to.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: One is people who love scripture, but want to go deeper into it.
• 47:51
  People who are relatively new to scripture and need a kind of
• 47:54
  on-road,
• 47:54
  it's been helpful there.
• 47:56
  And then something that's been really meaningful to me is
• 47:58
  apparently people who
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: have very complicated relationships to scripture,
• 48:01
  that because of various wounds from church experiences or
• 48:05
  family experiences,
• 48:06
  they relate to scripture with a certain type of emotional
• 48:10
  skepticism or fear or
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: whatever.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And people have been saying this might be a way back in.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that says is,
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: but I hope it's a book that's accessible for everyone.
• 48:22
  It does explore a lot of the same themes that my academic
• 48:25
  writing has explored,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: but hopefully without the kind of jargon and sort of scholarly apparatus.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll hold it up here.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a very big book.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is one thing it has going for.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is that it has both an introduction.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: It has three chapters on the Old Testament,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: three chapters on the New Testament,
• 48:43
  a slightly more in-depth study of Romans to look what it looks
• 48:47
  like to study a book
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: in a little more detail.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then a final section,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: which is really about patterns of reading scripture,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: reading scripture together,
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: reading scripture with others,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: not just for pastors,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: but as modes of ministry,
• 48:59
  reflecting on how scripture actually makes contact with our
• 49:02
  actual wounds and
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: actually ministers what Cranmer called the comfortable words.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I packed that into 200 pages.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if nothing else, it's not that long.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a feat in and of itself.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 49:15
  what I'd say is,
• 49:16
  so I think there's a couple things that make it distinct.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: One is that it's this overview that's relatively short and accessible,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: and it's pastoral,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: I hope,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: throughout,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: at least in intention.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: But the other thing,
• 49:29
  and here I think this is where Luke 24 and your language about
• 49:32
  the shape of
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture come up,
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: is it is a book that focuses on a particular theme through Scripture,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: even as it's doing a general introduction to its content.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll learn
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: what's in Ezekiel,
• 49:43
  and you'll learn the difference between Proverbs and
• 49:46
  Ecclesiastes and Job,
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: which are both part of the wisdom tradition,
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: but ask different kinds of questions.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it does that sort of work.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: But all through,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: from Genesis to Revelation,
• 49:54
  it's really trying to chase or explore or uncover sort of two
• 50:01
  basic things.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: So one of them is the theme that comes out most dramatically in Luke 24,
• 50:06
  which is that the subject of Holy Scripture from beginning to
• 50:09
  end is the crucified,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: risen,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: and incarnate Jesus Christ.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's the one who says in John 4,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: if you believed Moses,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: you would believe me because Moses wrote about me.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: And in Luke 24,
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: he opens the Scriptures and explains to them,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: beginning with Moses and the prophets,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: all the things that were written about him.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's very much a
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: an attempt to open the scriptures and hear how it points to,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: how it promises,
• 50:34
  how it poses questions that can only be answered in
• 50:37
  relationship to the gospel of
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus Christ.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of the ways I think it does this,
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: and I try to bring out clearly,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: is how the patterns in the first five books of scripture,
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes referred to as the Pentateuch,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Genesis,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exodus,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Leviticus,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Numbers,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Deuteronomy,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: they seem to kind of run into and therefore raise this question,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: whether human disobedience and death
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: disqualifies God's promises of love, forgiveness, and life.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the promise of the Old Testament is that the answer is no,
• 51:10
  but the fulfillment of that promise only comes true in the one
• 51:15
  who both has the
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: words of life,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: who dies for us and is risen for us.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is the kind of thing I'm exploring.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: So Jesus, as the main subject of Holy Scripture from beginning to end,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then secondarily,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: that this scripture has a shape,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: that it shows God's living and active word doing two things.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where the slightly obscure title comes in.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's from a George Herbert poem.
• 51:43
  George Herbert was a 17th century pastor who wrote a poem about
• 51:47
  the Bible called
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Holy Scripture One.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in it, he has this phrase that scripture is a well.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what he calls it.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's the sort of name or metaphor he's using.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a well.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: But then he says it does two things.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: It washes what it shows.
• 52:01
  And I take this just to be a concise and beautiful way of
• 52:04
  describing what the
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: creative,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: holy,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: but finally and fundamentally merciful God is up to when God speaks.
• 52:13
  God loves us enough to show us,
• 52:16
  to unveil,
• 52:17
  to unearth,
• 52:18
  to bring to the surface.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: our needs,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: to see,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: to say,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: and let us look at our pain,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: our sin,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: our secrets,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: our shame,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: our bondages,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: the injustice in the world.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: God loves us enough to show, to let us see our need.
• 52:35
  But God finally and fundamentally shows us so that he can wash
• 52:40
  when God sees our need.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: God is the one who speaks, who comes, who saves us from our need, who
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: meets our sin with forgiveness,
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: who meets our bondage with freedom,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: who meets our death with life,
• 52:54
  who meets our aloneness with a love that nothing and no one can
• 52:57
  separate us from.
• 52:58
  And so I'm trying to chase all throughout Scripture the way
• 53:03
  each part of Scripture
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: is God doing this work of showing us we need Jesus and giving us Jesus.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you can hear Luke 24 in there.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's Jesus the whole way.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also these two things,
• 53:17
  showing us we need Jesus and then washing what it shows by
• 53:21
  giving us Jesus.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think scripture is just information about that.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think scripture is a way that God actively does that.
• 53:31
  And this book tries to take you into that living relationship
• 53:33
  and let you stand in
• 53:34
  the place where God speaks in prayer and in hope that God will
• 53:38
  do what he promises
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: to do,
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: which will be to see,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: to understand and compassionately be with you in your need,
• 53:45
  but finally and forever overcome that need with the love of God
• 53:48
  that is Jesus Christ.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just got to say,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've definitely succeeded in what you are aspiring to do,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: because a book like this is kind of a massive undertaking,
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:01
  as you're taking 66 books and trying to speak about each one in
• 54:05
  a way that is in
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: depth,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: but also just not getting lost in the weeds,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: but also tying it back to this really important
• 54:14
  narrative shape which jesus reveals in luke 24 which is this is
• 54:18
  what the whole
• 54:19
  thing is supposed to do um and i i found that so effective and
• 54:23
  it's something that
• 54:24
  i've really striven to revolve my own pastoral but also
• 54:29
  personal ministry around
• 54:31
  which is this whole thing it concerns him that you know the the
• 54:35
  king james that's
• 54:36
  what it says he spoke to them the things concerning himself
• 54:39
  yeah which is just a
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: great way to say it um and i i
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: that is sort of what we were talking about just a minute ago,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: this is the moment,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: the fulcrum that changes everything.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I've often tried to communicate that,
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is the fact that like,
• 54:55
  what's the only difference between Peter the denier and Peter
• 55:00
  the proclaimer at
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Pentecost?
• 55:02
  Well,
• 55:03
  it's not only his encounter with the resurrected Jesus,
• 55:06
  but also this unlocking moment.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think at the end of Luke 24 and verses like 44 through 47,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: when all of the 11 are there.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it says he opened their eyes to understand the scriptures.
• 55:19
  And he repeats the same sort of,
• 55:21
  you know,
• 55:21
  biblical theological lesson,
• 55:23
  which is it's him.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's him incarnate dying for the forgiveness and remission of sins.
• 55:30
  That's the difference between Peter who denies Jesus three
• 55:35
  times and Peter who
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: stands and gives this eloquent sermon and
• 55:39
  and is bold and courageous in calling others to bold and
• 55:41
  courageous faith.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that sort of Eureka-like moment,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: that sort of pivot is,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: a construct of what the Word does to us,
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: where now we can't read Genesis the same way anymore.
• 55:54
  We can't read it in the same sort of way or shape because it
• 55:59
  has taken on this new
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: shape in the incarnate Christ.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is just teeming with life.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: when you understand this shape of scripture.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: But also,
• 56:11
  I think the title that you kind of remixed from Herbert is a
• 56:16
  great euphemism,
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: if I can say it that way,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: for the law and gospel paradigm that we've been talking about so much.
• 56:22
  And I think it helps us understand that that paradigm is one
• 56:28
  that's truly affecting.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is like a well that washes what it shows.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: It does what it says.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is helpful because the way you're explaining it from this
• 56:42
  perspective in this project for this book is that pattern of
• 56:46
  Scripture is not
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: distinctly like Lutheran or it's not distinct to any one tradition.
• 56:52
  This is a pattern of Holy Scripture that has been put there by
• 56:56
  the author of it,
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: which is not man,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: but God himself,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: really helpful to understand that this is
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: the pattern of all of God's holy words to us,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: because this is what his word is supposed to do to us,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: if I can say it that way.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I really appreciate you saying that.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 57:13
  I think people who know the theological traditions of the
• 57:16
  Reformation will be able
• 57:18
  to hear and detect that this is a kind of translation of some
• 57:22
  of the themes right
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: at the bedrock of the 16th century theological tradition.
• 57:29
  that I very much wanted to write a book that wasn't a work of
• 57:32
  historical theology.
• 57:33
  I've written lots of things about Luther's interpretation of
• 57:36
  Paul and Cranmer's
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: interpretation of Paul.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I love doing that kind of stuff.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I teach that stuff,
• 57:40
  but I wanted this to be a book that was in language that
• 57:46
  communicated those themes,
• 57:48
  but communicated them both excessively and in a way that felt a
• 57:53
  little more,
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 57:57
  removed from any particular Christian tradition and tied most
• 58:01
  explicitly to the
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: canon of scripture itself.
• 58:04
  And so using things like Hannah's song or the passage you
• 58:06
  mentioned from Jeremiah
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: or Romans 11,
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: 32,
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: as ways to describe this pattern of double divine action,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: but with direction toward mercy,
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: forgiveness in life,
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: is very much,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:20
  I'm engaged in what Luther would call the art of distinguishing
• 58:23
  law and gospel,
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm principally trying to do it.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: with slightly different terms.
• 58:28
  And this line from George Herbert was a particular gift to say
• 58:33
  that God through
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture both shows,
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: He diagnoses,
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: but He also washes,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: He delivers.
• 58:40
  What is it you think that is maybe we could say like the
• 58:45
  fundamental loss that is
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: experienced when we miss this shape of Scripture,
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: this shape of healing and
• 58:55
  like the well that washes what it shows and healing and giving
• 58:59
  life to the wounds
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: that were exposed.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we miss that,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: where do you think our Christian faith is,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: is,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: is kind of lived detrimentally,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: if I can say it that way.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: there's probably some really rich things we can reflect on,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: but the two things that,
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: that come to mind to say are one,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: if we don't have a theology of scripture that,
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: and of reading scripture in which God is fundamentally the speaker,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: God is principally interpreting us,
• 59:32
  we'll wind up with kind of patterns of reading or thinking
• 59:36
  about Bible study or
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: something in which,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: it's now time for me to do something.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to read my Bible.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to interpret it.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: I need to make sense of it.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: I need to take notes.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: All of these can be wonderful habits.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: I refer to them, I think, in the book
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: at one point is if they encourage you to open and attend to the word,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: then they're like hearing aids.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're really good things.
• 59:55
  But there are some patterns of reading scripture which are so
• 59:59
  burdensome or people
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: experience as boring,
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: which means instead of reading scripture,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: we don't.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, those are like earplugs.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what we really want to do is just be in the space where God speaks.
• 1:00:10
  And so one of the things that an emphasis on the living and
• 1:00:14
  active word does,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's an invitation to
• 1:00:18
  to undergo God's address and action and to understand that
• 1:00:24
  reading is hearing God
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: and being in relationship rather than something.
• 1:00:29
  I think the Psalms are beautiful examples where we both have
• 1:00:32
  words that are God's
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: word to us,
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: but we're also given words to speak back to God in worship,
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: both individually and communally.
• 1:00:39
  And you are participating in the living relationship that
• 1:00:42
  reading scripture is.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing I'd say.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the fundamental thing I'd want to say,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: and this isn't just about Scripture being living and active,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: but Scripture is living and active that does these two things,
• 1:00:52
  that diagnoses us in our need with compassionate understanding
• 1:00:57
  and delivers us from
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: that need through the gospel that makes us alive in Christ,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: is if you don't distinguish those two things,
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: then what you wind up losing is
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: is the clarity and the power of the love of God in the gospel.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because these things will have a way of blending and bleeding together.
• 1:01:16
  And you'll be studying scripture and you'll be encountering
• 1:01:20
  things that are really there.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: Descriptions of what God calls and what God created good.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: Invitations that our life should correspond to it.
• 1:01:32
  Words of judgment or woes against cities or the scribes and the
• 1:01:37
  Pharisees.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: you'll think, well, I guess this is what I'm supposed to do.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: I guess this is part of the good news of the gospel.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's absolutely true that these are forms of God's word,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: that this is God speaking,
• 1:01:55
  that there are profound and wonderful and needed descriptions
• 1:01:59
  in scripture of what
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: God created and calls good.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: And God does call us
• 1:02:04
  to patterns of life,
• 1:02:05
  and God promises to bring us to patterns of life that
• 1:02:08
  correspond to that.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: None of those are, in fact, the gospel, though.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't recognize that God is both showing us our need,
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: showing what is good,
• 1:02:19
  revealing to us the ways in which our lives are against the
• 1:02:22
  grain of what's good,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: and then precisely at the point of that real need,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: meeting us not just with here's what's good,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: but the announcement of the gospel that in our need makes us alive,
• 1:02:32
  if you don't have some way of distinguishing these patterns and
• 1:02:36
  it all blends
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: together,
• 1:02:38
  what you lose is the clarity of the promise that says to the
• 1:02:42
  person at the point of
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: their need without any footnotes or ambiguity or other stuff mixed in.
• 1:02:51
  God in Christ is saying to you what the father has always said
• 1:02:55
  to the son.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: You are God's beloved child and you God is well-pleased.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't recognize this double pattern in that that word,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: the word of the gospel,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: is the final horizon,
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's the purpose of all God's words,
• 1:03:10
  then we tend to say it in a way that it carries things with it
• 1:03:16
  other than the
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: unambiguous,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: unconditioned,
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: and sort of unshakable promise of forgiveness,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: love,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: and mercy in the name of Jesus.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's finally what we're given to say.
• 1:03:31
  And I want to say it without any kind of footnotes,
• 1:03:34
  without any kinds of ifs or buts.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for me,
• 1:03:37
  distinguishing the things that God is up to in the word is
• 1:03:41
  absolutely essential for
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: being able to declare the final thing he says,
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: which is in Jesus Christ,
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: you are forgiven,
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: free,
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: and forever loved.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Amen to that.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I would say the well that washes what it shows is a
• 1:03:56
  I would say essential reading for pastors and clergy and laity
• 1:04:00
  alike is a book that
• 1:04:02
  will definitely help you understand and see how all of
• 1:04:06
  Scripture is contoured to
• 1:04:08
  this double pattern that's happening that we've been talking
• 1:04:10
  about so much.
• 1:04:11
  Where can folks find it,
• 1:04:13
  and where else can they find stuff that you've written or
• 1:04:16
  published?
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: so this book,
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: and actually a few of the books I've done are with Erdman's,
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: so you can find it on their website.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm told
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can find it in some real bookstores in the world.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like the online bookstores are the easiest way to get it.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's available.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's other stuff.
• 1:04:34
  If you just search my name,
• 1:04:36
  Jonathan Lineball,
• 1:04:37
  you'll see plenty of other stuff I've written.
• 1:04:39
  Some of it kind of for free internet articles,
• 1:04:42
  but a lot of it edited books and authored books.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it fairly academic.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just say that the academic stuff is engaged with these same pastoral
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: questions,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: but The Well That Washes What It Shows is very much the book that I hope
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: brings these themes,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: and invites anyone who reads it deeper into Holy Scripture,
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: ultimately,
• 1:05:01
  because that's the place God has promised to speak these words
• 1:05:03
  of love and life.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your time today.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your consideration and care for these topics,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: but also for coming on the show today.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Brad.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's it for this episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 1:05:21
  I hope you've been blessed by this particular conversation,
• 1:05:24
  by this episode.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet,
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: be sure to hit up all of the show notes,
• 1:05:28
  click on the links and find ways that you can further engage in
• 1:05:33
  your study of the
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: word,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: the word that washes what it shows.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet,
• 1:05:38
  please subscribe to Ministry Minded on Apple or on Spotify or
• 1:05:41
  right here on
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Substack.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: I am so appreciative of all of your encouragement and your support.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, as always, for listening, for commenting, and for subscribing.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, I will see you later.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Blessings.