Latest / Not a Doorknob / Alcoholic Torture

Transcript

Alcoholic Torture · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] It's one of those deals- [laughs]... you know, where he's like, "John, hey, man." There you go. I'm like, "Yo, man, what's cracking?" There you go, dude.
• 0:08
  [laughs] The physician who, at our request, gave us this letter has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in another statement which follows.
• 0:18
  In this statement, he confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture must believe, that the body of the alcoholic is quite as abnormal as his mind.
• 0:29
  Did not satisfy us to be told that we could not control our drinking just because we were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight from reality, or were outright mental defectives.
• 0:41
  These things were true to some extent, in fact, to a considerable s- extent in some of us, but we are sure that our bodies were sickened as well.
• 0:50
  In our belief, any picture of the alcoholic which leaves out this physical factor is incomplete. All right, tell me more. Yeah, so, and just sidebar- Mm-hmm... this is not the doctor's letter. Right.
• 1:01
  This is, like, a few paragraphs in between. So why'd they need another letter? Well, to, in their words, expound upon it.
• 1:09
  He's gonna go into more detail about the two prongs of the disease, you know, mental, uh, or physical allergy, mental obsession,
• 1:18
  which I latched onto pretty early on, and kind of think about it today in terms of poison ivy. Right. Yeah. Right. I go roll around in poison ivy, I'm gonna get broken out and itchy and stuff.
• 1:29
  I go drink, there's something physical that happens as well as mental that happens- Right... in my body. Right. Which happens first? Uh, oh, the mental for me.
• 1:41
  I think the, the relapse takes place, you know, you often hear it talked about way before the actual first drink- Yeah... start chk-chk-chk-chk-chk-chk-chk. Yeah. Thinking about it. Yeah.
• 1:51
  Fleeting thoughts here and there, and then before you know it, you know, it's more than fleeting thoughts. You're, you're maybe not obsessing about it, but you're thinking about it a lot. Right, right.
• 2:01
  Uh, and then it turns into full-fledged obsession. Right.
• 2:07
  Uh, I remember, I mean, I've only had, like, one for real, I've been exposed to the solution, I'm sober physically, and then the gears start turning and I get relapse. Right. That happened a long time ago for me.
• 2:20
  Right, right. But I remember that sensation- Mm... of started going to meetings, started kind of flirting around with the program. This makes sense. Right.
• 2:31
  Seeing the parallels between my Christian upbringing and the practical steps, but then not really doing anything. Mm-hmm. Uh, and t-t-t-t-t-t- a couple months in- Right... that's when the wheels started turning for me.
• 2:45
  Right. And then before you know it, you know, you keep it a secret. Yeah. Secrets keep you sick. Yeah. And I turned around one Sunday morning, I remember where I was. Mm-hmm.
• 2:54
  I was at Cedar Springs parking lot in between services. Mm-hmm. Like, man, this sucks. Sober is for the birds. [laughs] Forget this action. Yeah.
• 3:03
  And just planned out not how to fall off the deep end, but I needed some relief. Right. Right. Yeah, the plan wasn't to fall off the deep end. No, it never is. Yeah. The plan, I mean, maybe sometimes it is. Right.
• 3:17
  But for me it's like- Right... sure, I can drink again, right? Sure. It's the hope that we can drink like a normal person. Right. Right. Right? This time it's different.
• 3:25
  It's been enough, it's been enough time since the last drink. I know more. I know more. I'm smarter. I know what to do. I know what my limits are. Yeah. You know, and I do. I think, like, it,
• 3:37
  it, that to me has always been the mental obsession, [clicks tongue] and it talks about, like, alcoholic torture. To me, the torturous part is the, is like you were saying, the mental obsession.
• 3:48
  Because there's this thing, like man, if I could just drink like a normal person. Yeah. And then it's like, well, maybe this time I can. And then the physical allergy kicks in, and all of a sudden, like, you know,
• 4:04
  I'm freaking six, eight, 12 deep. And it's like, well, this isn't normal. [laughs] You know? It happens, like, that quick, before you know it. Um, so yeah, to me it is this, like, idea of almost torture. Hmm.
• 4:18
  You know, that you live in when you, when you don't fully commit to a program of recovery. You're always living in this in-between space of, like, hope. Not hope for a cure,
• 4:28
  but hope that you can do it like everybody else does it, you know? And I do, I think that, that, that, that mental, like, termite can just eat away, eat away at our brains, um, you know, if we're not on guard against it.
• 4:44
  But yeah, I love that, that, that term alcoholic torture. Hmm. Uh, 'cause I think that's, I think that's accurate, you know.
• 4:52
  Uh, and, and like it says, "He confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture must believe." Um, but it kind of, it, it, it makes me think, like, do you have to get to the place
• 5:09
  where it's torture in order to recover? Yes and no. And I, I think the no is because younger people, myself included, are getting sober and staying sober. Hmm. Um, to an extent- Mm-hmm... we can attach
• 5:27
  somebody else's experience who's gone further down the line to the reality of the same line that, or path that we were on, and just hop off earlier. Sure.
• 5:38
  Um, the yes part though, I mean, if you don't experience some pain, why are we here? Right. Uh, what's the point, you know? Right, right. Maybe you're, you're drinking underage. That's a different problem.
• 5:51
  Um, but you gotta... I had to have some kind of mental torture going on to warrant me examining other people's stories and finding that parallel. Right. Um, but as far as where we jump off, I mean- Right...
• 6:07
  bottom's where you stop digging, you know, add your cliche in there. Right. And I think it's so true. Mm-hmm.
• 6:12
  Um, and they, they talk about it later in the book about they address the young people can learn from, uh, what we've already, you know, experienced to some degree. Right.
• 6:22
  Um- Yeah, I think there's gradients to, to bottoming out. Mm-hmm. You know, there's gradients to rock bottom. And, and you're right, like,
• 6:30
  I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy the bottom that, that I was at- Yeah... before I finally decided to come back up, you know?
• 6:38
  Um, and it, and it, I think, like, that idea of torture, like alcoholic torture, maybe it's a gradient thing. You know, maybe,
• 6:48
  maybe the torturing doesn't have to be quite as severe for some people, but maybe for some people it does. Yeah. But it still can sort of qualify as, as torture. And I think you're right on another level though, like,
• 7:02
  because we've gotta realize, like, how bad life can be- Mm-hmm... in order to be recipients of just the goodness of the life that God can give to us.
• 7:16
  Like, we can't appreciate the goodness of God and the generosity that he has to give without experiencing the badness of, of living life as an alien away from him.
• 7:28
  You know, it's almost like this balance, this yin-yang principle. You know, only when we recognize how bad we are do we truly recognize how good God is. And so without that, that, that type of torture,
• 7:41
  w- w- whatever the gradient is, but without that type of torture, yeah, I don't think it precipitates the necessity to seek the goodness that God has for us and for our lives. So just a thought.
• 7:53
  So let me press back on that. Come on. [laughs] What a take. So with the alcoholic, with people with substance issues- Mm-hmm... it's kinda easy mode in terms of laying that out. But take your normal, everyday,
• 8:08
  buttoned-up Christian. Sure. Good person. Sure. Whatever label you wanna put on it, because this is something that I'm not sure, uh, it's a, it's a mental ringer for me. Mm-hmm.
• 8:22
  Not everybody, it's the gradient like you're talking about, not everybody has to experience certain levels. Sure. Where's that drop-off? Sure. I mean- Right... where's- Right...
• 8:30
  is the average Joe or Jane that's just gone along, kinda doing the next right thing, doing all the principles that we pat ourselves on the back [laughs] for relearning how to successfully live life. Sure.
• 8:43
  They're no less saved. They're no less- Sure... uh, on, on the beam. Mm-hmm. But where, like, how do you- Yeah, no, I, I- How do you, how do you justify- I get it, right? Like- How do you reconcile that?
• 8:54
  It's not that they, it's not that they are incapable of grasping just how good God is. Mm-hmm. Because I think, like,
• 9:00
  yeah, like I said, I mean, I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy to live the, into the depths of depravity that I sunk. Um, you know, so, so I don't think it's like, yeah, that's, that's not the implication there.
• 9:12
  It's not that this person cannot recognize how good God is, but I do think, and I think that they would readily admit, that they can't recognize
• 9:22
  maybe the, the depths of that grace as much as someone who has been to the depths of hell. Hmm. Uh, you know, and I'd, and I'd, I'd, I would, I would fair, fair game, I'd take that up with, with plenty of people.
• 9:40
  And I think, like, even the most...
• 9:43
  Like my mom, for instance, I think my mom has, you know, experienced a, a fair amount of heartache and turmoil in her life, but I don't think that she would argue that, that, that, um, that her experience of God's grace and sort of, like, the, the depths of the richness of God's grace, uh, would equal mine, because I needed more of it.
• 10:03
  Hmm. You know?
• 10:05
  Like, maybe that's what it is, is like maybe it's this balancing act and, like, it's not necessarily the inability to experience God's grace, but it's maybe, like, the quantity, so less the quality of that grace, but maybe more the quantity of that grace.
• 10:22
  Like, I, I needed a lot more of it to bring me back into balance- Mm-hmm... than maybe people who have not been to the depths of hell that, that, that I went to. So that would be my thing. Yeah. You know?
• 10:37
  And I think that bears true with, with most testimonies that we hear. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's why those testimonies resonate with us.
• 10:45
  Very rarely does the testimony resonate th- where the person's like, "I've known Jesus all the days of my life. I cannot remember- Yeah... a day where the Lord has not been, uh, with me."
• 10:55
  And look, that's the prayer for my kids. Yeah. Like, I don't want them to ever know a day where they don't know the extent of God's grace for them. Um, but I think those testimonies that really resonate with people,
• 11:08
  the testimonies [laughs] that are in this book, the testimonies that you see on TV are the people who have been down to the depths and experienced just that, that, that, um,
• 11:21
  unending amount of grace poured out upon them that allows them to come back up. So that's what, that, I guess that's what, uh, what I would refer. Um, yeah. So that's interesting. Word. Good. All right, picking back up,
• 11:35
  the doctor's theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us. All right, hold on. Does it? So that's, uh, that's controversial. Yeah, the, what I said about the poison ivy allergy type of thing?
• 11:48
  Sure, right, the whole allergy. Mm-hmm. Um, okay, finish this paragraph. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may of course mean little, but as ex-problem drinkers, we can say that his explanation makes good sense.
• 12:02
  It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account. And that's why I like it, because it does make sense to me. Right. Medically, I don't know. Right. Uh, but- Right...
• 12:16
  it's certainly during that period of relapse that I did partake in. Like, that was exactly the case for me. I started drinking, ingesting stuff in the body. Right.
• 12:25
  And whether it was an allergy, whether it was a physical, uh, craving for it, as it talks about later here too, whatever it was, I wanted more of it. Right.
• 12:35
  Whether it was just all in my head, you know, just teenage Eamon wanting to feel good- Mm-hmm... uh, that was a component. Mm-hmm. Whether it was all of it, heck if I know. Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:47
  Yeah, and I think there's plenty of literature out there now, um, scientific literature out there now to confirm this idea of, like, allergy. Um, you know, people, we metabolize drugs in different ways.
• 13:01
  Um, for most people who are addicted to opiates, they get energized by it, which is contrary to what people think of what opiates are supposed to do. Mm-hmm.
• 13:13
  But, you know, for people that don't have that maybe genetic response built in, it's a sedative effect, and it knocks them out, and they're just like, "Oh," you know, they're turds. Yeah. You know?
• 13:25
  But, but for the people that are truly addicted to it, yeah, they may have a moment of nodding out, kind of like you see in the movies. But most of the, the opiate addicts I've worked with describe it as very energetic.
• 13:37
  Hmm. You know, giving them energy, uh, and sort of turning them into these, like, supermen and superwomen, you know, and give confidence and assurance and all that stuff.
• 13:47
  Uh, and I think there's ev- they've even shown that true with, um, with alcohol as well. Just the ability to metabolize alcohol is different with people who struggle maybe with this allergy or whatever the term would be.
• 13:59
  Hmm. Um, so I think there's a lot of relevance to that. I have on underlined in my book, um, an old note for sure. Hmm. Uh, an allergy to alcohol, but also sex, food- Mm-hmm... gambling, drugs. Fill in the blank. Yeah.
• 14:16
  Fill it in. Yep. Mm-hmm. There's something about that reward component that, um, just can't seem to be satiated. Yeah.
• 14:24
  Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as the altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for the alcoholic who's very jittery or befogged.
• 14:36
  More often than not, it's imperative the man's brain be cleared before he's approached, as he has then a better chance of understanding and accepting what we have to offer. So I would say that's still true today.
• 14:49
  Detox, right? De- detox him first. That's what, that's what we, what we would call detox. Um, who... [laughs] But it's interesting. Like, who needs detoxing and who doesn't? You know?
• 15:05
  [sighs] I mean, for real, like- The ones that are seriously in danger of, like, a, a fatal coming down off of alcohol- Sure... particularly. For sure. Yeah, like alcohol and benzos- [coughs]...
• 15:17
  absolutely need to have, uh- Some period... some type of medical intervention there. Yeah. Uh, what about dope? What about opiates? Get them, get them away from it for long enough so that they can grab onto the solution.
• 15:31
  Yeah. I mean, you leave a, a dope head around dope- Right... he's gonna go- Right... he's gonna go use it. Yeah, yeah.
• 15:39
  I think the most valuable part of detox for the, the druggies and stuff is to just physically go over here in a corner [laughs] Right... for a weekend, for a week- Right...
• 15:48
  for two weeks, whatever, some amount of time to remove from the scenario. Right. I mean, that was my, you know, that's what I did, you know. Uh, initially it was just get me away, get me out of Dodge. Right. Right.
• 16:00
  'Cause if I'm in Dodge- [laughs] Right... I'm screwed. Right. Yeah. Well, I just, I think it's interesting because, like, there's so many, uh, other ways to detox off of, like, drugs now.
• 16:12
  You know, the, the Subutex and Suboxone treatment centers, naltrexone- Mm-hmm... naloxone shots. You know, there's all kinds of, of... Like, what? I forgot the term.
• 16:23
  Like, I think it's antagonist or agonist, one of those two. Anyways, whatever they are- Yep... um, that can aid into, like, detoxing from a drug, uh, safely. Mm-hmm. Okay?
• 16:36
  But, like, from what, what you're saying and from my clinical experience, the most successful people, we'll just say opiate users, the most successful opiate users detox on their own. Hmm.
• 16:54
  And the withdrawal experience is so significant- Part of that... that they're like, "I never wanna go through this again." Yeah, yeah. "'Cause I felt like I was going to die." Mm-hmm. You know?
• 17:04
  And I think there is something to that visceral detox, when it's appropriate- Mm-hmm... uh, that can be very beneficial in launching people into recovery and into sobriety. Uh, and yeah, I think, like,
• 17:18
  it sounds like that might have been part of your experience. Well, I was just too much of a baby to go through the whole thing myself, though. Hmm.
• 17:25
  You know, 'cause that, that was my problem, is I wanted real bad, but I would make it 24 hours. Right. Right back. Right. 24. Right. And so I, I did end up having to be completely removed- Mm-hmm...
• 17:37
  and sent down to treatment center- Mm-hmm... um, and, and detoxing that way. Yeah. And, and then, yeah, it was still a significant- Right, right... don't wanna do this again- Right... situation. Right. Yeah, yeah.
• 17:48
  You know, where- wherever you are, whether that's at home coming down alone or, or locked up somewhere. Yeah. I say locked up. Yeah. But I think that's a great- Same difference... description there.
• 17:58
  Um, 'cause that's been, like, what I've heard from people too, is like they'll get 24 hours into it and be like- Yeah... "F this, bro." Yeah. "I can't do it. I need some dope." Yeah. You know?
• 18:07
  And, and- And try again next week. Yeah. And I'll, I'll try again next week. You know? But we never know when next week- Mm-hmm... when there's not gonna be a next week. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 18:15
  More times than not, it is imperative that a man's brain be cleared before he is approached. So that's interesting phrasing there. Yeah, I don't know if I agree with it either. Right, before he is approached.
• 18:26
  Yeah, start planting those seeds when you're feeling it. Mm-hmm. When you're in the midst of the misery. Yeah.
• 18:32
  Now, that's probably a sliding scale of, you know, immediately coming down you need to give it some space- Sure... so that they can retain something. But- Sure...
• 18:40
  I mean, the most receptive person's gonna be the one that's hurting the worst. Right. Right, right.
• 18:45
  Yeah, and I think, like, I don't see any problem with, like, planting seeds to people who aren't even in the head space to get recovered yet. Mm. You know, just sort of offering hope- Yeah...
• 18:55
  in situations where they, yeah, they may not be motivated for change quite yet, but, like, you can begin to offer these little seeds of hope and these little, you know, opportunities, um, towards a solution whether they're receptive to it or not.
• 19:09
  You know, that way they can come back when they do get interested and be like, "Hey." Something may stick back there. Yeah. They're like, "Hey, you talked to me about that meeting- Yeah...
• 19:16
  that time, you know, and I think I'm ready to quit." Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I don't, I don't, eh, maybe a little- [laughs] I don't know. I don't, I don't know about that one, fellas. Mm, mm-hmm.
• 19:26
  I don't know about that one. The doctor writes- "The subject presented in this book seems to me to be of paramount importance to those afflicted with alcoholic addiction.
• 19:37
  I say this after many years experience as medical director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcoholic and drug addiction." That's kind of s- Which hospital was it? Same thing he talked about before.
• 19:47
  Mm-hmm. Uh, I do not know the name of the hospital off the top of my head. Yeah, I don't either. It's, it's, uh, well, it could be Googled. You folks out there, let us know- Yeah... in the comment line.
• 19:57
  "There was therefore a sense of real satisfaction when I was asked to contribute a few words on a subject which is covered in such masterly detail in these pages." This guy was a big fan. Yeah. Yeah, a little.
• 20:10
  I don't know. [laughs] Whatever. Ma- masterly detail. [laughs] Right? "We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics,
• 20:24
  but its application presented difficulties beyond our conception.
• 20:28
  What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific approach to everything, we're perhaps not well-equipped to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic knowledge." Okay, I feel like that's, like, loaded.
• 20:41
  That's a mouthful. Yeah, I feel like that's loaded. So- Moral psychology. Yeah. I've got that circled, and I just wrote the steps. Yeah. Like, work the steps. It'll work on your morals and the psychology behind it.
• 20:59
  You're gonna do some good. You're gonna make some stuff right if you're doing it appropriately in the past, from the past, and try to pass on what you've been given. Mm-hmm.
• 21:10
  I mean, there's a ton of stuff in here that I've, like, circled throughout the book 'cause- Sure... my sponsor in the beginning was like, "Just, the answer to every question I'm gonna ask you is the steps." Is the steps.
• 21:19
  Like- [laughs] Right, right. Just- Yeah. [laughs]... write that one if I ever ask you something. Yeah. Um, of urgent importance to alcoholics, but its application presented difficulties bu- beyond our conception.
• 21:32
  Um, so it's almost like he's acknowledging that, that he or, or his, him being a representative of the medical community could only get them so far. Mm-hmm.
• 21:43
  You know, and it kind of, feeding back over here, it, it, it's not in his letter, but that idea of, like, the medical responsibility is perhaps getting that person stabilized, detoxed, um, clear-headed.
• 21:55
  Yeah, I think that was the reference earlier. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, out of the fog, befogged, right? Yeah. Um, to allow some amount of
• 22:04
  moral clarity or, or whatever that term, moral psychology, um, to allow that to begin to take place.
• 22:12
  Which I think is interesting, you know, because I think there's plenty of, uh, medical professionals out there, and, and I think addicts also, who would say, like, "That moral stuff is of no importance to me." Hmm.
• 22:23
  "I just need to get clean." Yeah. "Help me get clean." Clean me up, and I'll be fine. Right? Um- I'll be on my way. Sure.
• 22:29
  Like, how many people have we, have we walked through the rooms with and seen them go out because, like, that's where they stop. Yeah. That's the need they have.
• 22:38
  So maybe they come to a meeting, maybe they come to two meetings, but quickly realize, like, "No, this isn't me. I, I just, I just wanna get clean. I don't need all this stuff." Yeah. Um, okay, but, like,
• 22:50
  you know, and I think you, everybody out there, you guys are gonna get a, get a hang of this here after a while, get used to this. But this idea of morality, um, I don't know. Like,
• 23:03
  let's think about that a little bit more. Why, why do you need morality to be sober? Why is that an important piece to be, to sobriety?
• 23:13
  Well, it, they talk, they allude to it over here on the previous page in between the doctor stuff. "We work out our solution on a spiritual and altruistic plane." Mm-hmm.
• 23:24
  So they're planting seeds to let us know that there's something about addiction, at least in their opinion, and I share it mostly- Mm-hmm...
• 23:35
  that just getting sober is not enough, that just stopping is, is, like, just the starting point. Right. And that to stay stopped is the trick.
• 23:47
  And for some reason, growing up spiritually, like, and it involves a relationship with God, with other people- Mm-hmm... like, working out our morals in that way- Mm-hmm... protects us from the first drink.
• 24:03
  That first drink being the very problem that we think is the 12th drink- Mm... or the 16th drink. Mm-hmm. But it's really just gate, you know, the gateway drink number one. Yeah. Yeah. Um- Yeah, yeah.
• 24:16
  I, I think, like, where, where I start thinking- With that is like, what does that mean for the atheist? How do you apply moral principles to atheistic, um, worldview? You know, and I, we'll get to it.
• 24:32
  There's a chapter in here for- Mm-hmm... for We Agnostics. Mm-hmm. And, and it sort of begins to address the idea of atheism and agnosticism. Um, but if I, if I don't see what I do as being a moral dilemma,
• 24:47
  why do I need this to be clean, to be sober, to be sober-minded? Maybe you don't. Hmm. All right, so- I think, I think that's part of the beauty, and it's kind of sick beauty- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm...
• 24:59
  but I mean, it'll say later in this book, if you think you can control your drinking- Mm-hmm... by all means, go try. Mm-hmm. If- Mm-hmm... moderation or just stopping or stopping for a time, like if that fixes you,
• 25:15
  uh, you know, okay. Then, then we got- Sure... spirituality and religion. I mean, that's a whole nother- Right, right... ball of wax, right? We, we interconnected in the program. Mm-hmm.
• 25:24
  It works great for a lot of people. Right. Uh- Right... but yet it doesn't for some. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And like first prong of attack is, okay, well, you know, go, go try it your way. Mm-hmm.
• 25:36
  There's nothing that says we have a monopoly on how to do this either. Right. It just works really well. Right. And I think the second part of it, which we'll get into with We Agnostics later on- Yeah...
• 25:46
  is it's like, well, you don't even have to believe. And, you know, the, the flip side, so that's great news maybe for atheist agnostic, and then your staunch religious folks, you know, take issue, "What the heck?
• 26:00
  You can't- Right... you can't say that." [laughs] Right. Right. But yeah, I mean, this is not a religious program. Right. Uh, it's just an entryway to find a way to stop drinking. Yeah. And if you are held up by God,
• 26:17
  okay. Just go through some of the motions here, and if it doesn't work- Right... fine, you know, go find something else. Right. If it does, you know, maybe press into that. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, but like, so
• 26:31
  I come, I come around to this idea, though, that can you truly experience happiness, can you truly experience contentment without having morals, without moral principles guiding you and sort of holding you accountable?
• 26:49
  Uh, and I mean, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can. No, I mean, w- what is happiness at that point? Correct.
• 26:57
  You know, like, so, so I mean, yes, I, and I think like, uh, we'll get into this later also, but like, it certainly is an entryway, right? Mm.
• 27:06
  And it's almost like, um, for, for some people, they end up finding spirituality- Mm-hmm... where they never intended to find it in the first place.
• 27:17
  And so I do think like Alcoholics Anonymous has been designed and, and sort of implemented in a way that certainly encourages people towards creating a moral framework, uh, in embracing, uh, spirituality, especially with like a monotheistic God, and experiencing relationship with them.
• 27:37
  Um, but I, I mean, I would, I don't know. I don't think you can, I don't think you can be sober-minded without some type of moral framework. I think you can be sober or, or clean, uh, but I, yeah, I, I don't know.
• 27:55
  I don't think you can experience like sober-mindedness or, or sobriety as these guys wanted you to experience it- No... without embracing some type of moral framework. No, and, and I agree.
• 28:10
  And, and that first, my first condition there, like, well, just go try something else. I mean, I say that in all sincerity, but also with the hope that- Right... and my belief that nothing's gonna fill that hole. Right.
• 28:25
  Like you're gonna be dissatisfied until you come back around and- Mm-hmm... give something a shot. Mm-hmm. Uh, because I don't think that you can, I mean, I don't think you can define happiness- Right...
• 28:36
  much less have it- [laughs] Right. Right... without some sort of moral framework. Right. And yeah, there's, you know, variances- Mm-hmm... between people, but broadly speaking, like- Yeah. Yeah...
• 28:45
  you, you gotta hang your hat on something. Yeah. Yeah, and I think like that's basically what Dr. Silkworth is saying. Yeah. Like, "I can get you sober." Yeah. But then what? "But I can't get you sober-minded." Yeah.
• 29:02
  And according to him, this gives masterly detail on how to get that part. Masterly. Masterly detail. Yeah. Yeah. Right? But I do, I th- I, I, I appreciate the, um, his ability to, um,
• 29:19
  I guess be humble- Mm-hmm... in that regards and, and, and sort of like understand his limitations and, and the good that he can do, but also understanding like the total good needs more than just what he can give.
• 29:34
  For sure. You know, and I think that's kind of a cool acknowledgement on, on his part.
• 29:40
  Many years ago, one of the leading contributors to this book came under our care in this hospital, when while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical application at once. That's Bill again, right? Yeah.
• 29:52
  Yeah. Just a restating o- of his story. Later, he requested the privilege of being allowed to tell his story to other patients here, and with some misgiving, we consented. It's like, "What's this joker gonna say?"
• 30:04
  [laughs] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The cases we have followed through have been most interesting. In fact, many of them are amazing.
• 30:11
  The unselfishness of these men as we have come to know them, the entire absence of profit motive, and their community spirit is indeed inspiring to one who has labored long and wearily in this alcoholic field.
• 30:25
  They believe in themselves and still more in the Power, capital P- Which pulls chronic alcoholics back from the gates of death Yeah.
• 30:35
  I, I, I just, I, I would love to know what some of those cases are that he's referring to Yeah You know? The cases we followed have been most interesting. In fact, many of them are amazing. I would love to know, like
• 30:48
  what some of those cases were. 'Cause they were low bottoms, I would imagine. Oh my gosh. I mean, I bet it was just catastrophic. Yeah I mean, I bet it was, was just unbelievable.
• 30:59
  But I think, like the, I think the, the key word in that, that paragraph for me is unselfishness. Yeah. Uh, I, I really think that speaks volumes. Yeah Um, and it ties into the idea of, of the altruistic- Oh, yeah...
• 31:12
  uh, over here on the other page. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and I've, I've wrestled with that, uh, that idea of whether, like there is such thing as like altruism this side of Heaven.
• 31:26
  Um, you know, and are we truly capable of being selfless? Hmm. Uh, and I don't know. That's for another day, you know? But I, I, I, I love the, the, the emphasis on there of being unselfish in the pursuit.
• 31:39
  Because I think, like what you find for most of us in recovery, um, it does require sacrifice. Mm-hmm.
• 31:48
  Uh, and it does require a certain amount of unselfishness to try to help our, our fellow man wade through these waters. Well, and those things being planted here is no coincidence, and I've got both those- Mm-hmm...
• 32:01
  altruistic and unselfishness also- Yeah... underlined. 'Cause as we'll look into later in the step work, like that's like the core thesis of AA- Right... is like, "Here's the root of the problem." Right.
• 32:14
  It's the selfishness. Selfishness and self-centeredness. Do we ever get rid of it? I don't know either. Right, right. But we can certainly start chipping away- Right... at it. Right, right. We can tame it. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:23
  You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Absolutely. And, and I think like the last thing I would point out there is, is just, again, the seriousness of the problem that these guys were dealing with. Mm-hmm.
• 32:32
  That it's not fun and games. It wasn't fun and games for them. It's not fun and games now. It, it, it's not something that's just like, "Oh, just stop drinking," you know, that you hear all the time.
• 32:44
  And it's not like pull your bootstraps up kind of thing, that like the seriousness of this problem. Um, and we know people who have passed away- Mm-hmm...
• 32:54
  from this addiction, from this disease, whether it's through overdoses or suicides or, or liver shutting down.
• 33:02
  I mean, the countless number of people that, that I've worked alongside with in, in just my practice that have passed away, I mean, it's, it's ridiculous, you know?
• 33:10
  And it, and it truly is this matter of life or death, and I just think that's so important. You know, we live in a, in a, in a alcoholic culture. You know, it's saturated with booze. You know what I mean?
• 33:24
  There's breweries everywhere, brewery on every corner. "Oh, have you tried this beer or that beer? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You know? And Wine Down Wednesday and, and you know, like housewives aren't immune to it.
• 33:35
  Mm-hmm. You know? I mean, "Oh, I'm just having a glass of wine here, a glass of wine there, a g- " I mean, it's just everywhere, man. And if there was one thing that I just could, could hammer down, it's just like
• 33:48
  that statement there, like pulling alcoholics back from the gates of death. Um, because that's just so true, and I think so m- so many of us are, are just blind to the seriousness of the, of the problem.
• 34:04
  Very easy to get desensitized to it. [sighs] I mean, big time nowadays. Yeah. I mean, a- and I can't ima- [laughs] I can't imagine. Can you get in sober now versus- Oh my God... back when? Oh.
• 34:16
  'Cause it really is just every single- Oh... where you look. Oh, it's unbelievable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, the people that like I see now, like trying to get sober, it's just, it's impossible. Mm-hmm.
• 34:26
  I mean, it's at the grocery store. It's at the freaking gas station, you know? Like there's, there's, there's booze everywhere- Yeah... on every corner, and the expectation is that you're going to drink. Mm-hmm.
• 34:39
  You know? And it's like, "You don't drink?" It's like, "No, dude, I don't drink." Yeah. You know? And people are just like, "Oh my gosh," you know? Um, so yeah, no, I'm with you. I'm with you.
• 34:50
  Just as serious as it was then. Yeah. For sure. But there is a way out. Yes.
• 34:57
  Of course, an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit. Yeah.
• 35:08
  Kinda said that already. Yeah. We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy. So here's this again. Yeah.
• 35:21
  And this is kind of the thesis of the doctor's opinion- Right... that you'll hear quoted a bunch. That the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker.
• 35:34
  These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all, and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.
• 35:53
  Hmm. In some ways, this to me it's like, okay, you're screwed. It- you can never safely use alcohol in any form at all. Phenomenon of craving is limited to this class. How do I know if
• 36:08
  that was a craving versus I just drank too much? Right. I wonder for the person on the fence, for the person, I guess really the non-alcoholic- Right... do we make it too broad of a door sometimes? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:23
  I mean, it is a definitive [clears throat] statement that he makes there. Mm-hmm. These allergic types can never- Safely use alcohol in any form at all Mm-hmm You know, I mean, he's, he's drilling down on there, right?
• 36:35
  Mm-hmm. And once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up.
• 36:44
  So I think, like, it, to me, like, I read that and I s- I see two parts to it. One is this sort of phenomenon, the, the physical part of it, right? This phenomenon that, that, like, I cannot drink as a successful person.
• 36:59
  But then I also hear in that the habit. Mm-hmm. A behavioral component to it. Uh, once having formed the habit. Yep. Um, and so I think, like, maybe to your point, like, is the door, you know, is it too broad?
• 37:13
  I think maybe you can look at both of those things. It's not just like, "Man, I binge drank in college," uh, you know, "therefore I'm an alcoholic and I can never drink again."
• 37:25
  Maybe, okay, but, but, like, I've seen plenty of people who have done that and they legitimately now just drink, like, a glass of wine- Yeah...
• 37:33
  with dinner or something because the second part isn't engaged there, the habit piece. You know, they didn't make a habit of binge drinking.
• 37:42
  They just found themselves, you know, compromising probably parts of, of their psyche to, to get along, to go along, whatever it may be, uh, and found themselves in those situations, you know.
• 37:54
  And I think that that's totally different from somebody who develops this habit, this habitual longing or, or pattern of behavior- Hmm... of like, "I drink every day at 5:00. I have a..." Whatever at time.
• 38:06
  You know what I mean? Like, so I think maybe that's a... I don't know. What do you think about that? Yeah, potentially because the... I, I have two thoughts with it.
• 38:14
  The first, you know, is, is the lesser talked about is, is the door too broad, but the second is, okay, those were both parts of my own story- Mm-hmm...
• 38:23
  and my own experience, and this becomes, for the alcoholic, something to look back on and make sure I don't forget about. Right. Right. Uh, because that's the danger I think- Right... for my- Hmm...
• 38:37
  you know, the mental component, the mental obsession part of it, whether I'm obsessing about this or not. If I ever lose sight of this- Right...
• 38:45
  that has occurred in my past, I do, I do pretty much buy into the fact that, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to safely do this again. Yeah. Like, I'm just not. [laughs] Right. Right. And I'm not gonna test it out either.
• 38:58
  Right. You know. Right. I don't care how many years removed it's been. Right. Um, so I, I do. I, I buy into the combination of those two things.
• 39:10
  Maybe there is something to the idea of the moral component, ponent, even early on in the- [clears throat]...
• 39:14
  the experience of the alcoholic because I would imagine that the alcoholic is capable of experiencing badness when they do drink in excess. Mm-hmm.
• 39:23
  Like, it's sort of alluding to the because of the habits, there's all kinds of things that occur, like the consequences begin to pile up.
• 39:31
  And I would imagine it would be hard to escape the moral, uh, equivalency of badness to a lot of the, the negative consequences that are beginning to pile up there. Hmm. You know? Like, and, and maybe, like,
• 39:47
  th- the person who doesn't necessarily have a problem with alcohol has a very hard time seeing it as bad- Mm-hmm... being equated with badness, um, because they haven't experienced the consequences. Yeah.
• 39:57
  And like, rightly so, it's not necessarily a bad thing- Hmm... for them. Um, probably not a good thing, but you know, maybe not a bad thing like it would be for me. Right.
• 40:08
  You know, I can reflect on my experience and very clearly identify [laughs] the negative consequences- Yeah... with being something that I did not like. Yeah. I.e., bad. Yeah. Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices.
• 40:23
  What's frothy emotional appeal? I don't have any idea. [laughs] The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth- Hmm... and weight. There you go.
• 40:33
  In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves- Hmm... if they are to recreate their lives. Interesting. Yeah, I think if you take off the word frothy- Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 40:45
  Emotional appeal... suddenly that kind of makes a little more sense. Yeah. You know, because like, yeah, emotional appeals very rarely help. Hmm. "You're breaking my heart. Can't you see what you're doing to this family?
• 40:57
  Don't you see how much you're hurting me?" Okay, that may, I may push the pause button on that, but is it really going to exact the kind of change that, that this book is alluding to? No. Probably not.
• 41:08
  Um, what do you think about this idea, though, like the message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight?
• 41:19
  If I think it's, if I think it's full of crap, I'm just not gonna do anything with it. Hmm. And really my first trip through AA, I kind of felt that way because I hadn't really fully, um, started to listen. Right.
• 41:34
  I- if I don't believe you or if I look around and judge everybody, look for the differences instead of the similarities, that type of thing, yeah, I don't think it's gonna stick. Mm-hmm.
• 41:43
  There's got to be a willingness component, and the willingness has to be able to, like, grab onto something- Mm-hmm... that at least I feel like has depth- Right... and weight- Right. Right... uh, to make a beginning.
• 41:57
  Mm-hmm. And it evolves from there. Yeah. And then i- interesting to me that- Yeah... they've included at the close of this- Yeah... that it's got to be grounded in a power greater than themselves. Right. Right. Yeah.
• 42:07
  Yeah. I think there's a, there's a, there's a direct sort of pairing there between depth and weight- Mm-hmm... and, uh, grounding in a power greater than themselves. Mm-hmm.
• 42:16
  Uh, and then at the, like, I just think that's kind of a fascinating statement, "If they are to recreate their lives." Mm-hmm. What is that? What does that mean?
• 42:26
  Like, where does your brain go to when you, when you hear that statement? It's blown- If they hope to recreate their lives. Everything's blown up. I got to start from square one. Yeah. And, and- Is that good?
• 42:36
  Is that bad? Is that hopeful? Is that helpful? Is that depressing? It's a lot of those things, right? Yeah.
• 42:41
  I mean, a- a- and in this time when this was written, I think the bottom was just by nature, it was a lot lower- Right... just by nature of the times. Right.
• 42:51
  Part of the reason I kept going, until I didn't, was the idea of running away from doing the hard thing of recreating a life, my life, stopping, like confession, you know, put whatever verbiage you want to on it.
• 43:07
  Yeah, yeah. I think I saw, you know, two ways forward. One was to continue on, doing what I was doing, till I hit a wall, or bottom, whatever. And then two, which I didn't wanna do, was th- the hard work. Right.
• 43:23
  And I didn't know what the hard work was. Right. I didn't know this depth and weight part of it. But something about the progression of my disease and my addiction and what I kept doing,
• 43:40
  something about that just I intuitively knew, this is gonna suck when I stop. Yeah. And it, and it will be a recreation. Yeah. Um, and maybe it will be a good thing, a new creation- Right... uh, after [laughs]
• 43:53
  the pain and the heartache and the depression and the hard stuff. Mm. Uh, but, but that all, all that stuff was just fuel to keep going. Yeah, yeah. [coughs] Yeah, yeah.
• 44:06
  The, that idea there, um, it's, it's, it's like discovering your, like, true self. You know, it's, it's like this idea of discovering this true self. Like you've been living, not you, but like- Hmm...
• 44:20
  me, addicts, we've been living as a false self for so long. You know, either enslaved by our addiction or, or the, the, the parameters of who we think we are or who we think we're supposed to be are, are, are set by
• 44:34
  our drug of choice, the, um, people, places, and things that come along with that drug of choice. And so we begin to formulate this identity that's based, roughly speaking, on this, this substance, right? Yeah.
• 44:46
  How we relate to people, the places that we go, the hobbies that we have, the interests we have. Uh, and, and yeah, like suddenly it, it blows up, right? You, you blow it up.
• 44:56
  You remove this vital piece of who you thought you were, this identity piece out of the picture. And you're left going, "I have no idea who I am," right?
• 45:04
  Well, that's so uncomfortable for most people, they go back out and use. Mm. Because the proposition of starting from scratch, of, of rebuilding
• 45:14
  new people, new places, [laughs] new things, you know, new ideals, new norms, new habits, new interests, new hobbies, becomes so overwhelming that it, that like, "I'm gonna go back to what I know.
• 45:25
  I'm gonna go back to, to what I'm familiar with."
• 45:28
  But I think like the, the cool part there is, is like if you can get to this place where not only do you trust the process, but you trust the power that's greater than yourself, that that power
• 45:43
  has nothing but like goodness in store for you. Not, not, not alienated from difficulties, but like his intentions for your life are good. Mm-hmm. Then you've got somewhere to go.
• 45:56
  And you can begin to lay these foundations not based on, on the false gods of, of alcohol and drugs, but on like this one true God who truly does love you, who tr- truly does care about you, and whose intentions for your life are good.
• 46:11
  Uh, and that can be like very, very helpful when you start rebuilding- Yeah...
• 46:17
  that sense of self, you know, and that, that true self, the, the, the self that the Lord has intended for you to be from the foundations of the earth. You know?
• 46:26
  And once we quit fighting against it, you know- It's like, ah... and sort of turn towards the fears, right, suddenly it becomes something that is to... I love that posture. It does become something that's restful.
• 46:38
  Mm-hmm. You know? And it's like, it, it, it... But I think like for most of us, it's a really hard place to get to. It's foundational.
• 46:45
  It's, it's uprooting everything you've ever known, and all these friends that you've made, and all this kind of stuff. That's why I think, like I had to get the hell out of Knoxville when I got sober. Yeah.
• 46:54
  Like, you talk about a tough ask, man. It was gonna be tough for me to try to get clean in this town. Way too familiar. You know? And that's why for my situation,
• 47:05
  I had to end up in freaking Brandon, Mississippi- Brandon... at freaking COPEC- [laughs]... with a bunch of lunatics. Yeah, I'm talking to you guys. Yep. If you guys remember me, y'all were lunatics.
• 47:16
  [laughs] And I was one of you, okay? Like, I get it. We're all lunatics at that place. But yeah, you know, that's what it, that's what it took for me to finally realize that like, yeah, this power
• 47:27
  that, that this book is referring to, that this book is talking about, does have my good intended. How far did we get, a page? A page. [laughs] That's good. Another page. That's right on.
• 47:39
  We, we got longer than the first time, actually. Yeah we did. [upbeat music] No, I think that's good.