Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / Coming Out When You’re Married ft. Anshita Koul

Transcript

Coming Out When You’re Married ft. Anshita Koul · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Love Matters. We're coming to Life
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: from Berlin with a live audience for the first time,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: so this is a very special episode. We're at the
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: House of Podcast Festival, feeling very lucky to be here,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and I have an extremely special guest, Anshita call Anshatha
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: is an internationally touring stand up comedian, someone I've known
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: for a long time, and someone with a very interesting
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and groundbreaking in many ways given the social norms we've
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: grown up with personal story and journey that she is
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: going to be sharing with us today. Anshatha is in
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: a marriage, but she came out as queer in her thirties.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: To today, we're going to be talking about what that's
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: like coming out as queer in your thirties when Indian,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: you know, married. It's a lot and we're going to
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: dive right into that. So Anshatha, let's start at the beginning.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your upbringing, your childhood
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: and the journey that you know till the point of
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: getting married.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me here, Lisa, It's
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: really great to sit here in Berlin doing this with you.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I think I'm still on that
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: journey and it's like I'm learning on the go. But
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: to give you a little bit about my background, So
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I come from a place called Jamu and Kashmir in India,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: and I'm a nineties kid. I know that's a very
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: cliche statement, but I am a nineties kid. I grew
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: up without you know, cable TV, sex education, so all
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: my opinions were very you know, very influenced and shaped
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: based on the lack of sex education. I did not
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: have access to a lot of vocabulary that we use now.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I'm a pre internet child. Thank you for Internet. Yes,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: it's given me a lot of nightmares also on many days,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: but I'll still be very grateful for it.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's me, Thanks so much. But Anheta, you know,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of us in our twenties, there's this pressure
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: to get married as an Indian woman. It's almost like
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: it's your social duty. You owe it to the country
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: and society and everybody, right to get married, to have kids.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: All of these things are almost like planned out for you.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: So how did you view marriage when you know you
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: found yourself getting married.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Don't do it. Don't do it. If you really want
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: to do it, still, don't do it. I would say,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: as someone who is married, who got married in a
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: very traditional setup, and who will fight for the marriage
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: equality rights of anyone who wants to get married, don't
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: do it. So because I personally don't believe in the
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: institution of marriage, because it's very heteronormative. It's castists, it's patriarchal,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: it's ablest, it's all of the terms that if you
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: cansider yourself progressive, you should run from. Yes, there are
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: reforms that happen in a marriage the institution of marriage,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: but I sometimes feel, uh, sometimes we need more revolutions
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: than reforms. So I feel like we don't approach marriage
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: as a as a culture for the good parts of marriage,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: which is the companionship, which is the partnership, which is
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: the attack benefits. Right, we don't. We don't always view
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: marriage like that. But it's more of a norm and
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: more of an obligation sometimes cognitive dissonance if you're a
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: female presenting person. So that's why I feel like, yeah
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: for me. Also, if you ask me my personal and
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: political opinions, I would say, don't do it. But if
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: someone has to do it, then there are so many
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: norms and stigmas around it that we have to address.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: And yet that self awareness around the costs write what
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you lose when you get married, something that often as women,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: we only acquaint ourselves with in hindsight, right, And so
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I mean growing up, you're kind of made to believe
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: that this is the ultimate milestone in your life, right,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: which is I mean you got married? Yeah, and so
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about that, like what
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: was the sort of mindset that you had getting into
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: that marriage? Obviously there's been an evolution, yeah, yeah, So.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: One thing I always talk about when I'm also talking
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: with my friends. I never knew growing up that there
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: is an option to not get married. So I grew
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: up in a comparatively liberal household where education was given
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of importance, or where you know, a lot
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: of times I was told that, oh, you have to follow,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: you have to be financially independent, you need to have agency,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: and then get married. Right, So the marriage was always there,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: you know. So I never knew that there could be
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: a life without getting married. So when you grow up
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: surrounded with that conditioning, you never think about life without
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: being married. Right, And now that you know that, okay,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: one day I have to get married, there is no
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: other way. Then you look around yourself, and this is
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: I can speak for myself. I looked around myself and
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I saw happy marriages, unhappy marriages, but all of them
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: were straight marriages, so they were unhappy on So so
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: you know, I just all the marriages that I looked
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: around and that looked really happy to me. What really
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: stood out was that, you know, happy marriages had less
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: of patriarchal things going on. Unhappy marriages had a lot
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: of patriarchal things going on. So I inclined towards what
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: makes that happy, and most often the answer was if
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: it was a love marriage. So if you marry for love,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: if you marry someone you love or you've been with
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: for some time, what I understood and internalized was that
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: love is going to save me from the patriarchy. I
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: was wrong. So then, you know, from a very delicate
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: age of fourteen or fifteen, I started auditioning for the
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: perfect husband, which you should not be doing at the
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: age of sixteen, you know. So all of that kind
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of influences how you look at marriages as an institution
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: or even for partnership, because these are not the conditions
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: that you should care about when you want to marry someone,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: you should ask more important questions rather than you know, Okay,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: it's going to be love. I'm going to be rebellious.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be happy because it's going to be
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: a love marriage.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I think that also one of the sort of dominant
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: conditionings that is thrust upon women is that you know
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: you have to get married, but also you must not
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: think or know or in any way acquaint to yourself
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: with your sexuality up until that point. Right, your sexuality
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: is not even yours. It belongs to your family, and
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: then it belongs to your husband. Yes, right, So you
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: must not even try to investigate who you are sexually
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: or what your sexuality means to you, and you must
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: get married. It's kind of like just laid out this
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: is how it works, and it takes so much work
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: to try to unpack that and find out who you
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: are sexually. Right, So I think that you know because
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: this is not talked about so much. It's tempting to
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: think of someone like you as the exception, as if
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: like most heterosexual couples are truly heterosexual, But in fact,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: there's so many people who either have never interrogated their
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: sexuality or might in fact be queer, but having to
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: live within a heterosexual marriage, particularly in India where that's
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the only kind of marriage that's legal and is enforced
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: in this way, that is very difficult to opt out of.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Do you think that you were able to sort of
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: understand your own sexuality only after marriage? Yep, that's right, right,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, So what was it like for you
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: in terms of just your own self perception pre marriage?
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: You know, I think we want to get the opportunity
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: like so late.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. So for me, I identify as pan sexual now,
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: and before understanding this about me, I always kind of
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: knew that I'm bisexual, but I never you know, I
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: never really reflected on what that really means to be bisexual.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Because if you're a cis gender bisexual woman, you have
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: gender privilege, you have sexual sexuality privilege. You can navigate
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: spaces where nobody can figure out if you're bisexual, so
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: you just know. But if you are in a relationship
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: with someone who is not, for example, queer and is strait,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: so you often, especially bisexual women, often tend to align
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: towards heteronormativity because that's the norm. You look around yourself,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: even if you are in love with a woman, but
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: you're like, but you know, if I have to marry,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I have to marry a man at the end of
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the day, because the systems are in place. So even
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: if I liked so many women in my twenties and
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I felt an attraction to them, I never thought that
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: I can marry someone or even move in with someone
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: and be like have a partnership, which is, you know,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: two women living together. So even if I had crushes
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: and if I like them, it was always, you know,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: especially in India growing up, whenever you know, women got
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: cheesy with each other or cute with each other, you know,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: everybody likes it, even the men because they feel it's
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: for them. You know, it's the male gaze, right, oh yeah,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: do it for us? So yeah, So I was surrounded
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: by that environment. So I even if I knew that
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: I like women from very early age, but I just
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: didn't know what to do with that chile you know,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: where to take it. I just knew I liked women,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: and who doesn't like women? I mean, so I had
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: the chance and the privilege of being in a marriage
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: where even though it was a heterosexual marriage at first,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: but both me and my partner. We were very open minded.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: We were friends for a very long time, and we've
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: really wanted to get married to actually just live together.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: That was our number one reason to get married because
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: before that we were in long distance or we were
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: you know, not living together, and we really wanted to
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: live and move in together, be in one place and
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: then start living our lives, which also meant, you know,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: exploring what our interests, what are the likes and dislikes,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: And one thing led to another, and you know, I
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: realized that, okay, like you know, I just don't like
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: like women. I mean I'm attracted to them sexually, romantically, emotionally,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: and that was one of the ways I realized that, okay,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I'm bisexual. But then also again because I did not
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: act on it, it was just a feeling that I,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: you know, I lived my life with and only after
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: coming out and understanding myself a little more in therapy,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: talking to friends, being surrounded by a queer community, I
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: can say that I'm a gender non confirming person and
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I identify as pan sexual because I know all of
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: these things now I understand because I feel like bisexual
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: was also limiting in a way because you know, So
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: whenever we say bisexual, you often think of, oh, you're
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: attracted to both men and women. But what if I'm
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: attracted to CIS women and non binary people. So I
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: think bisexuality also limits you to think in terms of oh,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: man and woman, But what if I'm attracted to two
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: other different genders which do not come into man and women. So,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: and that's why pan sexuality felt more closer to what
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: my sexuality tear is and I know it now, but
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: again in hindsight, which is a curse. I think hindsight
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: is a curse. I don't know what to do with
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: the hindsight.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, would you be comfortable sharing what coming out was like? Oh?
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Because I mean I think sometimes, at least it sounded
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: to me. I could be wrong that you didn't have
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the vocabulary. You have the feelings, but you didn't have
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the vocabulary to I did sort of explain what you
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: were feeling even to yourself? I don't know. I have
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the feelings but not the word. But was that a
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: sort of moment in your marriage when you came out?
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah? It was never so okay, I have to also
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: address here, and I agree, like coming out can mean
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of different things for a lot of different
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: queer people, but personally, I feel it's an auxymoron because
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: queer people coming out to straight people doesn't make sense
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: to me because straight people never come out to me,
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: and no straight person has ever come out to me
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: and said, Hey, by the way, do you know I'm straight?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: So I don't feel obligated to come out to straight people.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: So I've never really officially come out, come out, you know,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And I really want, I really hope that we live
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: in a world where nobody has to ever come out,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: or at least straight people start coming out, then we
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: can you know, be there. But which is why, you know,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I never really have a moment, but it's just more
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: of like a flowing conversation, you know. During when I
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: started doing comedy, I met a lot of different artists
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: in the field, and I realized I met a couple
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: of bisexual pan sexual people and when they told me
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: that they are bisexual pan sexual, and I asked them
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: a few more questions and what they said really aligned
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: with what I think, and it just, you know, it
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: just hit me, Oh, then I'm also bisexual or pan sexual, right, so,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: and then I just conveyed that information to my partner
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: as it is. You know, it was never oh, you know,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: let's sit down. I need to tell you something. It
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: was never like that is like, hey, by the way,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm just washing dishes. I think I'm a
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: sexual and my part was like, yeah, I think I
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: know that. So it was more of like that. So
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you can call it coming out,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: but yeah, it was so I really want people to
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: come into my world rather than coming out to everybody.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: So I've never really officially come out anywhere. I think
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: this is a coming out ends I'm queer.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: You know, did the dynamics of the marriage shift or
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: change in any sort of way as you became more
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: aware of your own sexuality, you know, perhaps outside of
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: the confines of I don't know the twenty year old
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: ampsif are getting married or I'm not sure how we'll
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: go up, but I'm assuming that it was in your twenties.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it got better the dynamics before it
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: got worse, then it got better again, So it got
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: better because you know, I think I really believe that
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: whether you are in a marriage or you are in
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: a partnership, you cannot give or received love until you
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: love yourself or you feel free, because then one person
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: can keep giving a lot of love or whether it's
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: really true love or it's a conditioned love, but if
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: the other person is not feeling free to be themselves,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: that love means nothing to them. So for me, it
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, understanding the more I became true
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: to myself and the more I started connecting with that true,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: authentic self, I became freer, and that elevated the quality
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: of my marriage because I was, you know, truly in it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: But then I think because my partner and I both
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: came out, but seeing me being so free also kind
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: of led to this point where there was a lot
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: of resentment because my partner saw someone very free right
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: in the same marriage, and that was one of the
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: reasons that kind of also pushed them to understand their
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: own sexuality and gender identity within this system. So of course,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: you know, so it was a lot of euphoria, then
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of resentment, and then you know a lot
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: of self discovery, rediscovery and understanding what it means for
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: our marriage and then coming back together again with all
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that relearned knowledge about ourselves. So yeah, it definitely got
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: better than got really bad and then got better again.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: So and what sort of road do you think the
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: environment or sort of context of where you live has
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: perhaps shaped or factor into your experiences, Like you lived
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: in India, you've lived in Germany. Do you think that
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: you have to be different in either place? Or I'm
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: just curious. I don't have to make any assumptions.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: No, So you know, it definitely helped. Moving to Germany
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: was helpful in the sense that you know, the LGBTQ
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: rights are definitely more like in place here. But again,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: in the beginning it was very help because I feel
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: like I did not many and any queer person here
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: who was not supportive of LGBTQ movement or the rights.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: But then the more I realized what my identity is,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: what my sexual orientation is, and the more I started
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: taking space in the world, these are you know, there
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: are other intersections like you know, race and class that
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: comes into picture. So I'm welcomed in pretty much all
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: the queer rooms in Germany as a light skin person
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: of color who's queer. But what I have to always
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: say is not always welcomed, is what I can say. Also,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: so then it shapes your opinions. It shapes your So yes,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: coming out was easier to myself because I also believe that,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: you know, the only coming out that really matters is
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: coming out to your own self. And that was very
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: easy because I was living far away from a lord
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: of you know, no relatives and no intrusion, no interference,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of time to reflect on what do I feel,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: how do I feel without feeling any need to make
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: other people comfortable. So that gave me a lot of
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: headspace to kind of understand myself better. And that happened
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: because I moved to Germany, So there is definitely I
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: got a lot of space to be who I am
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: in when I moved here, and the more I became
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: who I am, then I started seeing the other obstacles
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: that can also come irrespective of whether you're queer or not.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: So definitely where you live makes a lot of difference
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: in shaping who you are as a person. But it's
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: not something that is going to be there forever, so
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: you know, so there is a price to pay. You know,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: when people say be yourself, I often want to ask
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: how much? Right you know? How much can I be myself?
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: You know, what's the limit? So I think yes, So
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: it did help. But also, like now that I am
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: I understand who I am as a queer person, as
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: an artist, as someone a person of color living in Germany,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I cannot. I have to consider all of this to understand,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: you know, where I am right now. I don't know
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: if that makes sense or not, But.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit about that the price
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: one pays to be oneself?
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I think that for a lot of people that cost
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: us too much to bear. Yeah, you know, especially when
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: you have to choose between things like your country or
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: your family and you know, your sexuality or your relationships.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: So whatever.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: It's horrible choices to have to make. And I think
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: for so many people, just hearing lived experiences from people
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: who look like them or you know, have a similar
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: background can be so affirming and just that gives you
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: a little bit of hope. Yeah. So, I mean, I
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: feel like we poke on the joyful aspects of all
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: of this, and I want to, I really do want to.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: But I think that for so many people, the stigma,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: the fear of judgment, the fear of what will other
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: people think. Low Kakayenge is like such so much in
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: your so much a part of you know, the sort
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: of background noise around even admitting to yourself, even coming
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: out to yourself. Yeah, you know, and so how do
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: you how does one deal with that? Did you have
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: to deal with that?
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I think for me personally, comedy played a very
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: big role because when you get up on stage every
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: night and you're talking, you're making jokes, you're often kind
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: of digging your own trauma and digging your own personal,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: shared and lived experiences, and you know you're trying to
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: cope through them. For me, comedy played a very important
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: role in my life. I don't know what I would
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: have done without a sense of humor, because sometimes you know,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: you need to zoom out and look at it like
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: a big cosmic joke. Some I mean, I always say this,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: not everything is material, but everything is a joke, because
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: you know, even though I came out in my marriage
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: and I'm still married to the same person who also
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: came out as square. So if you zoom out, we're
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: still married. Everything is good in the world, right, nothing happened.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: But if you zoom in, I've lost so much, so
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: many of my family, I've lost a lot of my
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: audience because I'm being just myself and because there is
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: no you know, a lot of homophobia and transphobia and
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: queer phobia exists all around the world, and particularly in India.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: We are not there yet where we should be, where
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: we were before colonization happened. So I think we need
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: we there's a lot of there's a lack of discourse
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: around the whole chosen families, right. I feel like India
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: as a culture operates on chosen families, whether you're queer
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: or not. We all have chosen families. So many of us,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: especially the nineties kid, we grew up in like you know,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: with grandparents and grandparents, friends and neighbors. Sometimes we didn't
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: like most of them, but we still grew up with
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: them around us. So in times of emergencies, in times
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: of families, so that was very you know, it was
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: a sort of a strength. But what I learned as
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: a queer person is that even those chosen families are
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: also you know, they are there based on conditions of
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: whether you're straight or not, whether you're following the template
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: of heteronormativity or not, whether you are upholding the patriarchal
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: values or not. Unless you're not doing that, you know,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: you will not even have your cousins who are pretty
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: much of your same age, similar mindset, even they can't
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: help you because you know, the systems around us are
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: still following that old regressive thing. So I feel like,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: for me the loss, I'm still sing the ambiguous laws
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: that came with this because it meant, you know, like
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I had this conversation with one of my family members
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: where they insisted on, you know, why do you have to,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: you know, act on your sexuality now that you know,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: can you just not be happy with that? You know,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: because if you do act on it, and if you
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: do out loud be there, you know, everybody will know,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: what will people say, what will happen? So if you
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: just know, can you not just be happy with that?
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Because then everybody would be a little bit happy. And
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: that was a moment for me when I realized that
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: that's what I've been doing all my life. You know,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: I've been trying to make everyone happy but myself. And
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: so I told them that, you know what, let's just
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: is it okay if I can be happy for a
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: decade and all of you be miserable. I think I
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: would like that bargain because I've been uncomfortable all my life,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: so I would like everybody else to be a little
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: bit uncomfortable until I figure out my things. I mean,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: of course, they always think that I'm joking, but I
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: was not joking. I'm very serious. I would really like
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: to be comfortable. I have never met relaxed women in
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: my life. I would like to be relaxed. I would
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: like to make art. But the loss is so much
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: that it makes me want to fight a bit more,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: you know, stand up and use my platform, use my
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: comedy to talk about all these things. Because I've had
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of privileges to navigate this, even though it
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: was heartbreaking to lose a lot of family through this,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: so many friends, and you know, and also work hard
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: in your mid thirties to make new friends. Right nobody
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: talks about that labor like you know, I had to
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: find out friends who have the value system. I'm not
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: saying like it has to be same, but it needs
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to Like, you know, someone's sexuality is not a difference
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: of opinion. You know, I cannot be friends with you
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: if you disagree with with me on LGBTQ rights. You know,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: that's not a difference of opinion. So for me to
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: find out that community, find out that chosen family and
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: then work at it like it's any other relationship. All
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: relationships need work right to also do that and then
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: lose everything that I had built until then and to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: start with a broken heart all over again. And you know,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: there's an opportunity cost to that, and people don't talk
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: about that. Oftentimes a conversation gets limited by coming out.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: But what happens after coming out? Nobody's talking about that,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: you know, the whole the conversation is kind of stuck there. Oh,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: you know, more people should come out, but then what
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: do we get jobs, do we get the support system right?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: All of those things are missing. So for me, I'm
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: still navigating it, but on the same side on the
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: like you know, in parallel, I'm also trying to create
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: a discourse using my comedy around these small nuances that
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: often gets missed whenever we speak about LGBTQ marriages or
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: queer rights.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I know that chosen family and kinship,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: the idea of kinship, and you know, challenging the normative
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: ways that that tends to be defined very endogamously and
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: in many parts of the world, including Aaron, is important
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to you. So I'd love to hear from you about
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: your chosen family and how you're redesigning kinship.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: So many of them are here now I'm getting emotional.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: No no, no no, but I have makeup on. I
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: have makeup? Is that God here? And makeup done to
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: make sure that I don't cry. I think it was
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: life saving for me to put myself out there. Not
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: everybody reacted the way I wanted. I face a lot
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: of heartbreak and rejection in that as well. But if
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: there is any queer person here or listening, and you
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: like the biological family, or you know, if you have
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: people around you right now who cannot understand what you're
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: going through, stop making them understand and go find other
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: people you know. And it may feel like a very
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: vigorous exercise. It may feel like why do I have
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: to do this, especially if you're in your late twenties, thirties,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: you know, or forties or any age you know. I
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: think the age becomes such a big factor, like, oh
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: my god, I have to do this because you know,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: we've been building friendships since children, but I think most
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: of us have been not really thinking about what friendships
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and kinships mean. Like it either happens very organically or
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: you try to fit in certain groups and then if
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: you feel you're different, you get rejected from those groups.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: So it's not something new. I think at every phase
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: of life, you have to kind of understand how you're changing,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: how you're evolving, and you have to also live with
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: the fact that some people maybe you know, may not
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: always be in your life and you have to part ways.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: And the only way to do it politely and without
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: a big drama is to kind of, you know, start
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: looking for new friendships, new communities, new people who can
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: at least you know, you feel safe to talk about
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: what you're feeling and don't feel gaslighted or dismissed, because
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I feel that's very, very important. If you already feel
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: you're different from people around you, you need to get out.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: You need to leave that circle right if you're because
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: if you are someone let's say, if you're queer and
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: you only have straight friends and you don't feel different,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: you feel just like you know yourself with them, that
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: means they're a good support system. But if you constantly
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: feel that nobody knows what I'm going through. My friends
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: don't know what I'm going through, they are not your friends.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: You have to Unfortunately, you know, it's painful, it's heartbreaking,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: but you have to find people who will at least
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: let you reflect on your own emotions. You know, people
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: don't save us. People just basically just hold our hands
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: while we try to save ourselves. And you need to
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: find people who can hold your hands while you figure
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: out your thing. My chosen family has never tried to
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: fix my problems. My chosen family has always believed in
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: my ability as an adult to fix my problems because
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I know what I'm really going through one hundred percent
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: all the time. Not everybody can know what you're going through,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: even your chosen family and friends. But because they believe
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: in me, and I know wherever I am I will
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: not be able to figure things out, I can then
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: lean on them. Right So, even when I was for example,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: I knew I have to do this podcast and it's
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: a topic that is very personal to me. And when
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: I went through, you know, when I was prepping for
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: this podcast, I went through the the cycle of emotions,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of grief that came from what I've experienced.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And yeah, they came through. They all came through, and
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: I send them some questions. You know, can you please
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: answer these questions, I'll just memorize them or you know,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: like what do what do you think I should say here?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: And what do you think I should reveal here? You know?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so I think I'm very grateful that because
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: sometimes people might work a lot but still not find people.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I think that's also one of the realities. But yeah,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: I think I was very lucky that I put myself
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: out there and I found all the Quados and Wardo's
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: like me, and it's a chosen family.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for sharing that, were there any I mean,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: I think we like to try and leave listeners with
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: some actionable tips since we're on this very important matter
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: and you already pointed to how hard it is to
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: make new friends in your thirties.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I mean I think it's really hard. I mean, in
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: a very it might sound like a silly question, but
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: like where do you find this chosen family?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: And also unfortunately they're usually all around the world, right,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: so you're always like in a long distance.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Resources or sort of you know, I mean, you spoke
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: of therapy also earlier. What are some of the tools
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: or resources that you've found sort of helpful in navigating
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: both identity as well as you know, finding people when
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: you have lost your community and are looking for one
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that understands.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Number One Reddit Reddit. I think you should all start
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: from Reddit because Reddit is a wild place, but I
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: think you will find find most of the answers to
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: your questions. If I mean I when I was going
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: through my coming out and then dealing with a loss
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: of family and loss of community, there was a lot
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: that I was processing, but I felt like I did
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: not have the right too. And because I've followed a
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: lot of people on social media who spoke about therapy
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: and mental health, so I immediately started looking for professional
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: help to understand better, you know, what my sexuality and
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: gender identity means, and couple's therapy therapy, like I was
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: very open to it immediately from the day one when
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: I felt I cannot take it anymore, and I wrote
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: a sample email where you know, I just said that
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: this is what I'm going through and I need help
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: with this, and I just spam emailed all the therapists
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: resources I could get from Instagram, you know, Facebook, and
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: through my friends friends of friends, so I got all
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the email ideas. I just randomly send an email thread
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to and then two people replied saying, and one of
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: them is the longest relationship I've had my therapist, I replied,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And they're also queer, so yeah. So they're replied saying,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: oh god, you know, let's meet. So yeah. So I
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: think if you are in a situation where you feel
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: like I cannot talk to my family, I cannot talk
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: to my friends, I think it would be wise to
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: see professional help. Having said that, therapy is not always accessible, inclusive, intersectional, affordable,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: all of that, I couldn't even though I have it
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: in insurance here, I couldn't find the right therapist. So
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: my current therapist is in India, so we have a
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: zoom session as well. So I think it's very important
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: to find support groups, and social media can be very
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: helpful in that credit for example, and then of course
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: get professional help if you can afford or if like
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: I was, it was happening in the middle of the pandemic,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: so I was broke. I was not earning a lot
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: of money, so I couldn't afford therapy. So I asked
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: my friend for help. Can I can I borrow some
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: money from you? Because I really need to get this
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: instead of you know, projecting it on my friend like
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: you be my therapist, and I think it worked better
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: for her as well. And she's like, yeah, I think
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I think you should really seek professional help. I can't,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I cannot help you beyond this, So professional help. And
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I think then when you start vocalizing your feelings and
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: thoughts in a safe space, then you get even more ideas,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: you start looking at solutions. So the first step would
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: definitely be to speak to someone you really trust. Get
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: professional help if you can afford and or read it.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, these are my treamps of resources I think
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: that you can use.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, my last question, what is your vision for equality?
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: And sort of I know, I know it's a big question,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: but we've got to at least imagine the future that
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: we desire, right, what would a you know, the utopian
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: future that Ata imagines in the Indian context but also everywhere.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: So because we started with you know, even though this
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: is a conversation about coming out as queer when married,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the first ten minutes we talked about how nobody should
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: get married. You also marriage equality, but like, do we
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: like don't get married even if we even if we
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: successfully kana that?
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: So, what is your sort of radical vision for an equal.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Future, everybody's gay, everybody's non binary. Everybody's gay. That's the
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: future is non binary.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we just haven't admitted yet.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, nature is gay, right, so we are part of
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: the nature. I think so, uh no, but I feel like, yeah,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: I think I already I think addressed it. Like we
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I would like to live in a world where nobody
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: has to ever come out, come out, but you know,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: there is more equality, There is more equity, And I
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: do not personally like when people say, oh, this place
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: is LGBTQ friendly, I don't understand that. I don't. I
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: think we need to live in a world where you know,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: every place, at least a public space is friendly to everybody.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: So we have to with with being queer. Of course, again,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of sex education, and thanks to you for
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: doing that really groundwork that you're doing in India. We
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: need so much more queer affirmative sex education because even
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the sex education we have so far in Tier one
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: cities in India is also very like heteronormative right if
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: it's even present, So we need to talk about our
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: queer affirmative sex education. We definitely need that a lot
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: because until and unless representation is important and it matters.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Not always means equality, but it is important to you know,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: have someone to talk to, whether it's in your school
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: or families who will not judge you, who will not
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: you know, exploit you for your feelings and thoughts. So
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: we need to work towards that as as as individuals,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, changing the world cannot be something that every
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: person can do, but like we need to speak up right,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: you know, we need to not be an audience to homophobic, transphobic,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: you know, interactions or content online. Sometimes people don't have
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: the privilege to speak up or take a stand because
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: their own safety might be in danger. But even during that,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: I think the least everybody can do is not become
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: an audience to any kind of homophobic, transphobic, querophobic, whether
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: it's online or offline. And that's like the bare minimum
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: everybody can do. Leave the room and make sure that
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: the person who says something like that knows that they
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: have made someone uncomfortable with what them saying, instead of
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: normalizing it or glorifying it or you know, making jokes
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: about it. So sex education is important. A lot of
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of people fighting on the ground
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: for the rights amplifying their voices and yeah, trying to
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: become an ally but not just for the performativeness of
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: being an ally. You know, there's a difference between ally
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: ship and solidarity. Right, allyship centers the ally solidarity centers
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: the person who needs the allyship. So I think we
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: need to also start looking at that. If you know
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: someone is queer, if you go to more queer comedy shows,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I would say, like, you know, if I have to say,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: go to more you know, queer events and don't be creepy.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: But sometimes people can get creepy. But yeah, like you know,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I think educate yourselves. There's so much information available online.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Before you ask a queer person how do you know
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: your queer? Figure out if you are straight or not?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Like you know, you will find out a lot of
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: interesting things, like I did, Like you know, so I
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: think that is that are some of the things we
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: can do.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Ah, this has been wonderful. Thanks so much for being
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: here today and thank you for joining us on Love Matters.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Love Matters is produced by The Indian Express and Data W,
• 39:00
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• 39:06
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• 39:13
  Speaker 1: and I believe love matters.