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The Fragile Power of Wealth · Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: To be able to say,
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I fly private,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I charter,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I holiday on a yacht,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm still really sad.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, it's like hard for me to get out of bed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've presented with so many options.
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  SPEAKER_00: I could do anything.
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  SPEAKER_00: I could do like anything that I want to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And instead of like filling me with joy, that fills me with like sadness.
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  SPEAKER_00: And having somebody who can be like, yeah, I get it, right?
• 0:37
  Instead of saying,
• 0:38
  oh,
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  but you should be grateful and appreciative for your life,
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  you know?
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's an element of gratitude.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: we certainly don't want to operate in the realm of gratitude,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: but at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_00: look,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if you're poor,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you're middle class,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you're rich,
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  SPEAKER_00: life is life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Stuff happens, you know?
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  SPEAKER_00: Everybody struggles.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the time
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  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome back to Reasonably Happy.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Paul Ollinger.
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  If you have ever wondered if having everything you've ever
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  wanted would make you
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  SPEAKER_01: feel like a complete human being,
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  SPEAKER_01: this episode is for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Dr.
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  SPEAKER_01: Paul Hokemeyer,
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  SPEAKER_01: a psychotherapist who works almost exclusively with ultra high net worth
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  SPEAKER_01: individuals,
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  SPEAKER_01: the kind of people most of us assume have life completely figured out.
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  SPEAKER_01: Spoiler alert,
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  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hokemeyer is the author of Fragile Power,
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  SPEAKER_01: this book right here,
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  a fascinating look at the emotional and psychological
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  challenges that come with
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  SPEAKER_01: extreme wealth,
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  SPEAKER_01: fame,
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  SPEAKER_01: status and success.
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  SPEAKER_01: In his work, he's seen firsthand
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  SPEAKER_01: Today we talk about why power is more fragile than it looks,
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  SPEAKER_01: how wealth can complicate identity and purpose,
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  SPEAKER_01: and what it actually takes,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether you're worth $10,000 or $10 billion,
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  SPEAKER_01: to build a life that feels meaningful.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is Dr. Paul Hokemeyer.
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  was working with a wealthy family and simultaneously working in
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  a free clinic in
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  SPEAKER_00: Hollywood and seeing that two sides of the economic bell curves,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  That while the externals of these people's lives were quite
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  different internally,
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  SPEAKER_00: there are things that were very much the same,
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  SPEAKER_00: like the sensitivity and vulnerability about being a human being.
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  And the field of behavioral health did a good job of looking at
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  people who live in the world
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  SPEAKER_00: in our society and positions of powerlessness,
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  but a terrible job of looking at people who live in the margins
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  of society and
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  SPEAKER_00: positions of power and wealth.
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  And then I decided to really investigate what it means to be a
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  person of wealth,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I went back to university,
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  SPEAKER_00: did a PhD,
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  SPEAKER_00: in ultra-high net worth identity constructs,
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  SPEAKER_00: how people of wealth manifest their identities intrapersonally,
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  SPEAKER_00: interpersonally,
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  SPEAKER_00: and socioculturally.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I took that,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was in New York,
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  and then I took that into the field of addiction treatment and
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  was working for the
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  SPEAKER_00: Karen Treatment Centers in New York City.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had a townhouse on East 58th Street and just kind of got pulled in.
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  It was just kind of like there was a need and kind of a hunger
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  for the work and
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  SPEAKER_00: It can be polemic though, right?
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  Because people have such a schizophrenic relationship to wealth
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  and they idolize it
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  SPEAKER_00: and demonize it all at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it causes so much stuff to come up.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sorry to interrupt you,
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  but one of your potential dissertation advisors even asked you
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  why you waste your
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  SPEAKER_01: time studying the wealthy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: so I said for that very reason that you just had,
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  SPEAKER_00: because dismissing the population is worthy of any investigation.
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  SPEAKER_00: But he didn't get it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Even when I pushed back there, he didn't get it.
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  So I was pulled deeper into the work and started doing a lot of
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  work in Europe.
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  SPEAKER_00: Europe has...
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  a very deep understanding and hunger for understanding cultural
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  differences because
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  I think Europe is so small and because it's made up of so many
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  different cultures.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then my work,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was really what I do,
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  SPEAKER_00: my why every morning,
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  why I get out of bed is to place an identity of wealth amongst
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  other salient
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  SPEAKER_00: identities in the provision of mental health services.
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  So if we know we're dealing with a minority population,
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  which we are,
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  we talk about it
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  SPEAKER_00: and this minority all the time,
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  SPEAKER_00: top 10%,
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  SPEAKER_00: top 1%,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we know like other minority populations,
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  SPEAKER_00: there are cultural markers that define this group and make them distinct.
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  And so my research and through my work,
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  I have identified three of those cultural markers.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk about that a little bit later.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so looking at this population, looking at my work as a clinician,
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  SPEAKER_00: through the lens of cultural competency and cultural humility.
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  So providing mental health care services for people of wealth
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  that recognize them
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  in the entirety of their being and understanding wealth as a
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  salient identity,
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  SPEAKER_00: it means something.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just like if I'm a woman, that means something.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just like if I'm a Muslim, that means something.
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  Just like if I'm queer,
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  that means something and something significant in terms of my
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  identity.
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  in terms of how I view myself,
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  how I'm viewed by other people,
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  and how the world views me.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  I heard about your work in this New York Magazine article that
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  came out maybe two
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  SPEAKER_01: months ago,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the title of the article was,
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  SPEAKER_01: What Does Extreme Wealth Do to the Brain?
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to ask you, what does extreme wealth do to the brain?
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  SPEAKER_01: or fame or power,
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  SPEAKER_01: these things that we covet,
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  SPEAKER_01: that we pursue,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that we worship and yet demonize all at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_00: It does something quite significant.
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  SPEAKER_00: It changes it in really, again, three different ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: How we view ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_00: how we're viewed by others,
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  SPEAKER_00: and how we're viewed in our society and our culture.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I have found through my work is that wealth
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  SPEAKER_00: is very isolating.
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  SPEAKER_00: The people of wealth tend to live very isolated lives,
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  self-selectively and just by virtue of the fact that they have
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  an identity of
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  SPEAKER_00: wealth.
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  And what that happens is your world gets smaller and smaller
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  and your reference
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  SPEAKER_00: point gets tighter and tighter and tighter.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so because human beings are tribal, we orient ourselves
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  SPEAKER_00: around the common interest and against common foe.
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  People of wealth,
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  just like other minority communities,
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  congregate in smaller communities.
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  And there starts to become this echo chamber where there's a
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  normalization that
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  SPEAKER_00: occurs in that process.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's also,
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  SPEAKER_00: in terms of if we want to look at neurophysiology,
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  SPEAKER_00: neurochemistry,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we want to talk about dopamine,
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  SPEAKER_00: serotonin,
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  SPEAKER_00: and oxytocin,
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  SPEAKER_00: which are
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  SPEAKER_00: Endogenous Opioids.
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  Those are the things that make us feel good that our body
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  generates on its own.
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  SPEAKER_00: We talk about dopamine.
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  So money enables us to have pleasurable experience and buy
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  really great things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that gives us a dopamine rush.
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  SPEAKER_00: What happens over time, there's something called
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  SPEAKER_00: Hedonic Adaptation.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it used to like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you get a Rolex and then you're like,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I want to like a Paddock Fleet.
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  SPEAKER_00: And now I want some other watch that costs like $750,000 or something.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you're smiling.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a knowing smile on your face.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  I have a couple of nice watches and I realized not long into my
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  watch interest is
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  SPEAKER_01: that there's no end to that game.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: and and that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's and when you start talking to somebody who's really into it,
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  SPEAKER_01: it goes from like,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: a five thousand dollar Rolex.
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  SPEAKER_01: How cute.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  as soon as you're talking about half a million dollar watches
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  and you're like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't afford a half a million dollar.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can afford a couple of Rolexes maybe, but half a million bucks.
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  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's it's a microcosm of the whole issue.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if you if you are trying to compete on the basis of money,
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  with the exception of one person,
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  there's always somebody who's got more.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  There's no there's no there's no winning in that game unless
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  you can say to
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  SPEAKER_01: yourself,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have enough and I'm good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or understand why you're doing it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
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  SPEAKER_00: listen,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that as a society in our culture,
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  SPEAKER_00: we are too invested in this narrative that money ipso facto is evil.
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  SPEAKER_00: Money is not ipso facto evil.
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  SPEAKER_00: Money and wealth
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  SPEAKER_00: are pretty amazing.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they can accomplish really terrific things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we have to start talking about the power that money has to heal,
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  SPEAKER_00: not hurt.
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  I think we need to recognize the fact that power and money are
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  and have been used to hurt.
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  But I also think that we need to start having conversations
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  about how money and
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  SPEAKER_00: wealth can be used in productive ways to heal.
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  SPEAKER_00: And
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  SPEAKER_00: One of the best things that money can do is to heal.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: before we started recording,
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  you were talking about your journey in terms of how when you
• 10:21
  had your liquidity
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  SPEAKER_00: moment,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  you went out into the world and you began experimenting and
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  trying on different
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  SPEAKER_00: things and seeing what fit.
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  And the reason why you're able to do that,
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  I imagine,
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  is because you had a cushion of wealth.
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  SPEAKER_00: Correct And so using that wealth as a floor,
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  SPEAKER_00: as a cushion,
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  SPEAKER_00: as a way to go out and be productive in the world is beneficial.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to be having more of these conversations.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I know we will obviously keep everybody's identity secret and,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: family details,
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  SPEAKER_01: non public and all that stuff.
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  Can you share a little bit about the kinds of engagements you
• 10:59
  you work on when
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  SPEAKER_01: you're engaged by high net worth individuals,
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  SPEAKER_01: ultra high net worth individuals or families?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm licensed as a marriage and family therapist.
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  SPEAKER_00: So my work is systemic.
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  SPEAKER_00: I look relationally.
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  SPEAKER_00: I look at context.
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  SPEAKER_00: I look at relationships.
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  SPEAKER_00: Those are very important to me.
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  One of the relationships that I look at is a person's
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  relationship to money.
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  SPEAKER_00: So typically what will happen is I'll get called in.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'll get a call.
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  SPEAKER_00: by either a client directly or a referral source saying,
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  I have Joe Smith and Joe Smith just sold his business for half
• 11:37
  a million U.S.
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  and he's suffering from some depression and he started drinking
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  too much and it
• 11:48
  feels as though he's starting to engage in some sorts of
• 11:52
  self-destructive behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can you have a chat with him?
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  and so so and who might that who sorry to interrupt again but
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  who might be making
• 12:01
  that call to you it can be a spouse it can be the financial
• 12:05
  advisor it could be
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  their lawyer um no when you operate on those this level of
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  wealth there are lots of
• 12:15
  people around there are lots of people around you the team
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  there is a team and um
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  SPEAKER_00: Usually,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's a vetting process where,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the person who runs the family office will bring me up and say,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I read your book or read X,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Y,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: and Z and looked at your videos and would you have a chat?
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  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  I hear about the case and if it's something that I'm interested
• 12:40
  in working with and
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  SPEAKER_00: something where I think I can add value,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: then,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: we'll proceed and then a month later,
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  SPEAKER_00: two days,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll get a call and there'll be an initial meeting.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then the initial meeting is basically like figuring out chemistry.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: is this something where,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can provide value and you feel like I can provide value?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or I'll get an email from somebody saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I read about your work and I inherited all this money and
• 13:16
  I gave you know I don't know 50 million to my kids and they
• 13:20
  blew through it 30
• 13:21
  million like in two weeks you know and can you help my kid and
• 13:25
  I'm like well maybe
• 13:27
  I can help you like so it's you know it's all those sorts of
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  things it's managing
• 13:33
  help people manage the power inherent in wealth because there's
• 13:39
  an enormous amount
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  SPEAKER_01: of power in it certainly can be
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: or or it can or it can be something that owns you in the in the end.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like electricity, isn't it?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 13:51
  you can be used to really productive objectives or it can be
• 13:57
  used to destruct and
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: it can be used to kill.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've seen I've seen things not go well.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you're when you're dealing with ultra high net worth
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: individuals or very successful, famous celebrity type folks.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: How does that power dynamic work between counselor and client or patient?
• 14:24
  Because these are people that are used to telling people who
• 14:26
  work for them what to do.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not your job as a therapist, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can be.
• 14:34
  I kind of do coaching and I was trained as a lawyer so I tend
• 14:38
  to be a little I've
• 14:41
  been known to tell people what to do Clinically directed No but
• 14:45
  that's what I mean
• 14:46
  is they're not used to having people They're used to giving the
• 14:50
  orders They're not
• 14:51
  used to having their flaws pointed out In fact they've
• 14:55
  surrounded themselves with
• 14:56
  people who it's not in their best interest to point out the
• 14:59
  boss's flaws Exactly So
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is where the art of the work comes in.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that my work is an art based on science delivered relationally.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me,
• 15:14
  the science bit is all of my work is grounded in empirically
• 15:17
  based science,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: what's in the literature.
• 15:19
  So understanding clinical diagnoses,
• 15:22
  understanding which treatment modalities are effective.
• 15:26
  The key,
• 15:27
  though,
• 15:27
  to successful outcomes is having an effective delivery system.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So in the field of mental health and field of behavioral health,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: there's something called a therapeutic alliance.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the therapeutic alliance is basically akin to a needle in a vaccine.
• 15:45
  So if you don't have an effective therapeutic alliance with
• 15:48
  your patients,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: you're not going to be able to deliver the medicine,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: which is the relational repair,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: which are the clinical interventions.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Just like if I have the most effective vaccine.
• 16:00
  for COVID and I have a faulty needle or I have a patient who
• 16:03
  doesn't believe in
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: vaccines,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: then the medicine is not going to be delivered effectively.
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  SPEAKER_00: So my job as a clinician is figuring out how can I earn your trust?
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  How can I get you to understand that I can hold the enormity of
• 16:27
  your challenges
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: that you're going through?
• 16:30
  um and that's a dance one of the things that I found through my
• 16:34
  work and one of the
• 16:35
  things one of part of the clinical formulation that I've
• 16:38
  developed in my work is
• 16:42
  based upon post-modern theory feminist thought feminist
• 16:45
  thinking and and and so
• 16:47
  feminist theory looks at feminist psychology in particular
• 16:52
  looks at power dynamics
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: in society and the hypothesis the premise is that women
• 16:59
  are not genetically predisposed to higher levels of anxiety for
• 17:01
  which they suffer
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: when compared to the general population.
• 17:05
  It's because they live in our society and our culture in a
• 17:08
  place of diminished
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: power,
• 17:10
  and they haven't been able to effectively negotiate those power
• 17:14
  dynamics to a place
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: of positive well-being.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm working with a client,
• 17:21
  when I'm working with the CEO of a Fortune 500 company who are
• 17:24
  an Oscar winning
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: actor
• 17:26
  those power dynamics are very I need to be very cognizant of
• 17:29
  those power dynamics
• 17:31
  as they are used to being on top the reason why they there is
• 17:35
  because they're
• 17:36
  always on top right I mean how many of my clients have said to
• 17:39
  me we've talked
• 17:40
  about you know like how they've been so successful it's like
• 17:42
  because I learned
• 17:43
  early in the game that the only option to be safe really to be
• 17:48
  safe in the world is
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: to make sure I'm on top right so now I come in and I'm a clinician
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, talk to me about your vulnerabilities.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who are you?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's figuring out,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: A,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: that working collaboratively with that client,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: understanding when to push,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: when to pull,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: when to advance,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: when to retreat,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: figuring out when I have enough trust in,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: when there's enough trust in the relationship where I can challenge
• 18:26
  the patient in a way that moves them in a reparative direction
• 18:31
  without breaching
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: our therapeutic alliance.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, this is a case-by-case situation.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I view the work as an art.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that it can scale.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that there are certain
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Fundamental premises that,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: like understanding,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: approaching the work through a postmodern lens,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: understanding power dynamics,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: understanding the importance of working collaboratively.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I often say,
• 19:04
  I think the value that I most provide in my therapeutic
• 19:09
  relationship with these
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: clients is not the advice I give or the data that I present them,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: but it's in the questions that I ask them.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: How so?
• 19:26
  By enabling them,
• 19:27
  it's asking them questions that get them to think differently.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And being able to understand,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: part of my work is understanding patterns and connecting,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: connecting different things.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then once I can see some connections,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: then asking them,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: this is interesting,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I see X,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Y,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Z,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: do you see
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: this or how do you or even more open-ended saying something like huh it's
• 19:56
  interesting that these all kind of happen these all played out
• 20:00
  the same way like
• 20:02
  what's the common denominator there and they're like oh I
• 20:06
  thought that would be me
• 20:09
  and so because these people you know the clients that I'm
• 20:13
  privileged to work with
• 20:14
  they're super smart I mean like the smartest people you've ever
• 20:16
  met and highly
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: motivated um
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's an amazing group of people.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's an amazing group of people.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everybody, we'll be right back with Dr. Paul Hokemeyer.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to say thank you for listening so far to this episode.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you're an old Reasonably Happy slash Crazy Money listener,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: thank you for your longtime loyalty and support.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you're new,
• 20:37
  this is about episode 280 of the series of podcasts I've been
• 20:42
  doing since January
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: of 2019.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about money and happiness and success and fulfillment and family.
• 20:50
  College Admissions Sometimes And Sometimes We Talk About
• 20:52
  Politics Not Everybody's
• 20:54
  Real Happy About That But I Think It's Important For
• 20:56
  Understanding Our World And
• 20:58
  There's Some Very Important Thinkers Out There Whose Viewpoints
• 21:01
  I Think Are Worth
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sharing So I'll Have Those On Here Occasionally
• 21:04
  You Want To Find Everything Paul Ollinger On The World Wide Web
• 21:08
  You Can Do That At
• 21:09
  Words.paulollinger.com That Is My Substack Words.paulollinger
• 21:17
  And That's Where All
• 21:18
  My Writing Is It's Been Dozens Of Essays A Year Over The Last I
• 21:24
  Don't Know Six
• 21:25
  Years Or Something Like That It's Always Supposed To Be Fun And
• 21:28
  Informative
• 21:29
  Sometimes Provocative But Something That Will Make You Think
• 21:32
  Make You Smile That's
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: The Idea
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know if you've been successful?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: First,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: an early indicator is when a client says to me,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Paul,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been able to say this to anybody.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I mean, I just like talk about dopamine, serotonin.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm like, yes, this is what we do.
• 22:19
  Because,
• 22:20
  you know,
• 22:20
  people of wealth,
• 22:22
  you can't really talk about it to anybody.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: if you talk about it to even your peers,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: they can get jealous and envy and competitive.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you talk about to people outside of your social circle,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: then you feel like you're bragging and like they don't understand.
• 22:36
  And then we have,
• 22:38
  you know,
• 22:38
  this whole eat the rich thing that's going on out in the world.
• 22:43
  And so being able to come forward with the fullness of your
• 22:48
  identity and to be able
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: to say,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I fly private,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: I charter,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I holiday on a yacht.
• 22:59
  and I'm still really sad like you know it's like hard for me to
• 23:03
  get out of bed and
• 23:04
  and I've presented with so many options I could do anything I
• 23:09
  could do like
• 23:10
  anything that I want to do and instead of like filling me with
• 23:16
  joy that fills me
• 23:18
  with like sadness and having somebody who can be like yeah I
• 23:24
  get it you know I
• 23:26
  Instead of saying,
• 23:28
  oh,
• 23:28
  but you should be grateful and appreciative for your life.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an element of gratitude.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: we certainly don't want to operate on the realm of gratitude,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: but at the same time,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if you're poor,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: if you're middle class,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: if you're rich.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Life is life.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Stuff happens.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody struggles.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: You said something.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Pain does not have an economic threshold.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:00
  Billion a billion dollars doesn't doesn't immunize you to your
• 24:04
  insecure your own
• 24:05
  insecurities I completely can help I mean let's not pretend
• 24:11
  that money you know
• 24:13
  like but but but but having a billion dollars that's a lot of
• 24:16
  money you know I sort
• 24:18
  of see money in kind of like trunks I see like like one to 20
• 24:24
  million something 20
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: to 60 something
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: 60 to 100.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you get into hundreds of millions,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: and then when you're a billionaire,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: that just puts you in a different stratosphere.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: You are just,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: you're a billionaire,
• 24:40
  which is sort of like talking about a person like they're an
• 24:43
  alien or a zombie or,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: it's just,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: and we have all this mythology and we have all of this
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: stuff for this non-clinical word,
• 24:54
  but about who billionaires are because there are a number of
• 24:57
  billionaires who suck
• 24:58
  up all of the energy in the world and whose narrative is not
• 25:07
  one that we would want
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: our children to live.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so then there's something called faulty generalizations, right?
• 25:13
  So that when we generalize,
• 25:16
  all billionaires are like a malignant narcissist.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not true.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some billionaires are malignant narcissists.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Some middle class people are malignant narcissists.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some poor people are malignant narcissists.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think society and our culture,
• 25:35
  an identity of wealth is still an identity of culture where
• 25:40
  it's okay to demonize.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can you say more about that?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think if we look at- Hey, sorry, Paul.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I got beeped over on that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can you say more about that?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think if we look at sort of,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I live in Telluride,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Colorado,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: which is a pretty affluent ski town.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And on the mailbox,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: post box outside the grocery store,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: there is a sticker alongside of all the ski board stickers that says,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Eat the Rich.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: and so I think that,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is that just,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: is that somebody,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: is that somebody's idea of an ironic joke in Telluride of all places?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Telluride is like,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: is actually,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:27
  Telluride is one of these places where the middle class is
• 26:29
  being squeezed out and,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: doctors,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: teachers,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: nurses,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: there's,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: you can't find any place to live.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's real economic tension there.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: and forget being like,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: a worker,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: like working in the grocery store or anything like that.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's real issues.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Look, there are real issues about wealth inequality.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's real and I think it's pernicious and dangerous.
• 26:56
  I also don't think that we should demonize capitalism and I
• 26:59
  don't think we should
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: demonize wealth.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we need to be,
• 27:03
  it's a much more nuanced conversation about why we have wealth
• 27:08
  inequality and how
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: we got there.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to be talking about
• 27:12
  the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands and how
• 27:16
  when you have that,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: the predatory aspect of capitalism does come out more.
• 27:22
  But I don't think we should be demonizing capitalism just
• 27:26
  because of that.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that these conversations are important.
• 27:32
  I think that they need to be nuanced,
• 27:34
  though,
• 27:34
  and I think that they need to understand
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Paul Ollinger paulinger
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: and not just go and live behind gates and edges,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: how how being a part how using their wealth in a constructive,
• 28:15
  healthy way to be a part of humanity is is a really healthy
• 28:21
  thing to do for
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: themselves,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: for the loved ones,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: people they love and for the world that we're all privileged to live on.
• 28:29
  You were talking about narcissism just a few minutes ago,
• 28:31
  and that's a big theme in this book.
• 28:34
  And one of the things that you point out is that the tendencies
• 28:37
  or the inclinations
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: that one has that leads to inordinate success in life to to,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: the point one percentile of wealth,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: fame,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: power,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 28:55
  Like so many things in a Greek tragedy,
• 28:58
  the our strengths become our weaknesses.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: this is a 360 degree individual who's accomplished a lot,
• 29:07
  but is susceptible to their own appetites or insecurities that
• 29:13
  were the things that
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: motivated them to get to the mountaintop.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we need to understand again, like we tend to
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Don't develop, you know, we think too simplistically.
• 29:25
  And we do that because our brain's reductive and it takes
• 29:28
  energy to think.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're like, I don't have all that energy.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just eat the rich.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's sort of, that's a line that I want to call.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's the three-word heuristic that society is really digging.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I get it.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, listen, I get it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that maybe if we don't eat them,
• 29:49
  like if we kind of bring them into the world and help them
• 29:52
  understand why it's
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: important for them to be in the world a positive way.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Just marinate them a little until they soften up.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: There you are.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So getting back to the narcissism, because we can go down bunny trails.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: The narcissism thing.
• 30:07
  So again,
• 30:07
  we generalize narcissism that all narcissists are malignant
• 30:10
  narcissists,
• 30:11
  right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And malignant narcissism is a combination of antisocial personality,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: tendencies, narcissism, and Machiavellian-ism.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so narcissism occurs on a spectrum.
• 30:23
  And,
• 30:24
  you know,
• 30:24
  we have a lot of great,
• 30:25
  like most,
• 30:27
  like Michelangelo was probably a narcissist.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we have like wonderful works of literature, of art, of businesses.
• 30:36
  You know,
• 30:37
  narcissism has produced a lot of great value in our society,
• 30:40
  in our culture.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Anxiety gets shit done.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anxiety gets shit done.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Fear, scarcity mentality.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: These are things that get things done.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it gets people out of bed in the morning.
• 30:53
  And so I think that we need to talk about narcissism again in a
• 30:59
  way that where to
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: look at the value proposition in here and in narcissism.
• 31:03
  Narcissism occurs on a spectrum from adaptive to pathological
• 31:08
  and destructive.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so one could say that in the most adaptive
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: point, healthy narcissism is a strong self-concept and self-esteem.
• 31:19
  And then on the other side,
• 31:21
  on its most destructive,
• 31:23
  is malignant narcissism.
• 31:25
  And people who suffer from malignant narcissism destroy
• 31:31
  everything they touch.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like everything that they touch, they just ultimately destroy it.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot of gray area in there.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think looking at the population that I work with,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: of course everyone has narcissistic tendencies or is a narcissist.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's an assumption that comes in with it.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not going to change that.
• 31:54
  I'm going to help them sort of...
• 31:57
  What do you want them to recognize in themselves?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want them to really understand...
• 32:05
  I always say sort of my like throwaway,
• 32:08
  not throwaway line,
• 32:09
  but my like elevator pitches.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: I work my clients to have peace of mind and sense of place.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Where does that come from?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from internally.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, it helps to have money to live in nice places.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, live in safe places.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that certainly helps.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're a middle class and you have friends and relationships,
• 32:37
  you belong to a church or a civic club and you contribute and
• 32:40
  you're useful in your
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: community,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: you don't have to be rich to have a sense of place.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or to feel valued,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: inside,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: whether or not you think about it or talk about it very much.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just something that has been important in my life,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: finding a sense of place and peace of mind.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: and I derive an enormous amount of gratification from my work,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: like being able to do the work that I do is a real privilege.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is important.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's also important for me to live in like a safe home,
• 33:20
  beautiful surroundings and have a strong community and have
• 33:24
  relationships with
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: a few key people in my life.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need a lot.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the data show like three to five.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're married, you get extra credit.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we really don't need like three.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's important.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: What I see happen when people,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: what wealth does,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's the opposite of what general society thinks it does.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: It robs people of a sense of place and peace of mind.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because they isolate themselves.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because the money takes over and then they start accumulating things.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so they have five cars,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: one of which is always in the shop and needs a flatbed tow truck to go.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or you have all these watches, right?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they have to keep running.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to get a machine to keep the watch running.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or you have these houses and something is going on.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so the money begins to really... And then you have all of these...
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to have all these layers of staff and help.
• 34:26
  And that erodes your sense of place because I have one family
• 34:31
  that I work with that
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: they have like a lot of nannies and the husband is like,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: why don't we have all these,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: there's never any peace in our house because we have,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's like Elizabeth Hilton,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: like coming through.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think understanding
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think getting clear about what you want money to do for you.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you wanted to buy you things, it's okay.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to stand a judgment of that.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you wanted to provide sense of mind and peace,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: peace of mind and sense of place,
• 35:05
  then I think you should look at like your consumption and your
• 35:08
  expenditures and why
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: you're buying the things that you're buying.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: You make the point that well,
• 35:16
  you cite a study that said that men of high net worth report
• 35:20
  that their wealth and
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: status afford them better and more exciting sex.
• 35:26
  Is there an equivalent between a person's right to be wealthy
• 35:34
  and a right to enjoy
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: the fruits of the world that they didn't necessarily earn?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you look at personality types,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you look at like an alpha male,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: if you look at being a predator in our society,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: there's a thin line,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: isn't there,
• 35:52
  between being like aggressive and being a predator and those
• 35:56
  sorts of things.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess there's a weird thing because,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 36:01
  I don't think it's controversial to say that women are
• 36:04
  disproportionately attracted
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: to men of power and status.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's evolutionary.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's been evolutionary proof.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's like Chris Rock says,
• 36:14
  men are only as faithful as their options and wealthy men have
• 36:16
  more options.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Very well said.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:21
  And so how do you how do you help them see what's good for them
• 36:25
  as opposed to
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: what's fun or enjoyable to consume?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think you look you do it in terms of like a risk analysis like.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can do this.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: What's the risk?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's the risk proposition?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: What do you stand to lose?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then have a conversation.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if they can articulate clearly that I'm going to lose my marriage,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to lose respect to my kids,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to lose,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: if you're in a faith community,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: if you're going to lose the respect of the faith community.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I don't know, like fairs and mistresses and misters
• 37:08
  Take up a lot of headspace Take up a lot And do you I joke with
• 37:16
  my wife I'm like I
• 37:17
  just don't have the time I'm sorry My spouse I said yeah I just
• 37:23
  No I can't I can't
• 37:24
  But you know So Yeah So I think it's there I think it's just
• 37:29
  getting clear I mean
• 37:30
  Like I said you know Like I draw a lot of my training As a
• 37:33
  lawyer And we were As in
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: law school We were trained in like The Socratic method of inquiry
• 37:37
  and it's really like asking questions and and I like putting
• 37:41
  things in language
• 37:42
  that people understand like entrepreneurs understand risk
• 37:46
  analysis like they get it
• 37:50
  expected expected value things like that yeah yeah yeah what
• 37:54
  are you getting out of
• 37:55
  this were you yeah I've been talking about like what do you do
• 37:58
  what are you getting
• 37:59
  out of it like what is this doing for you and a lot of it's all
• 38:02
  your gratification
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of it is this is you know like
• 38:07
  If you're a powerful,
• 38:09
  rich man,
• 38:09
  if you're a powerful,
• 38:10
  rich woman,
• 38:12
  the world genuflects to you.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: The world gives you a lot of attention.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, again, there's tolerance.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: You build a tolerance and then you keep wanting more and more and more.
• 38:26
  There's something in the field of addiction where we talk about
• 38:30
  tolerance,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: where you need more and more of the high to get the same
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Baseline Level of Gratification.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so thrill-seeking, doing something that feels dangerous.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: These are neurochemicals, right?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're stimulating cortisol and a lot of neurochemicals in your body,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: and you get dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin.
• 38:53
  So,
• 38:54
  you know,
• 38:54
  like,
• 38:56
  you're getting those,
• 38:58
  and there's a risk associated with it.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Are you willing to, you know, are you willing to make that bet?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you really have people who have more money than you can imagine,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: jets,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: yachts,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: and they're bored.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it crazy?
• 39:21
  Well,
• 39:21
  I just,
• 39:22
  I think it's a crazy concept that most people could not get
• 39:26
  their head around.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the, yeah.
• 39:30
  that society expects that that is exactly what we should all
• 39:34
  strive for right even
• 39:35
  if even if even if you're a person of if you're a very
• 39:38
  reasonable person to look at
• 39:41
  somebody who's achieved everything they've ever you know gone
• 39:45
  after and that person
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: is unsatisfied that is it is uh it does it doesn't seem logical
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we would say in the field that it's egotistonic.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's, it's, it's, it's not consistent with your senses of self.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because, listen, hope is a wonderful thing.
• 40:05
  And one of the great things about living in America and living
• 40:08
  in a capitalistic
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: society is that we think that if we work hard enough,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: we have enough lucky breaks that we can transcend class.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: listen,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was the first person in my college,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: in my family,
• 40:19
  my brother and I were the first people in my family to go to
• 40:22
  college and like to
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: get advanced degrees.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so
• 40:25
  We Were Able To Transcend Social Class You Know And And And So
• 40:31
  And And It Was A
• 40:31
  Very I Grew Up In A Very Aspirational Household You Know My
• 40:35
  Parents Had Friends Who
• 40:36
  Were Wealthier And Drove Cadillacs And Lived In Houses With
• 40:40
  Swimming Poles And We
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't Have Any Of That And So Like It Was Kind Of Nice Like I Was Like
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is really nice And so there is an element of that And look,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: we always want to be striving for increments of better As human,
• 40:57
  that's how we advance society This is hard baked into who we
• 41:01
  are And so having a
• 41:03
  carrot out there that we can strive for is meaningful And it
• 41:08
  helps us produce And
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: it helps us be productive in the world
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we learn that,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: like pulling back the curtain of Oz,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: it's kind of,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: we don't like that.
• 41:25
  Our psyches don't like that because it's like,
• 41:30
  well,
• 41:30
  what do I have to work for?
• 41:32
  And then again,
• 41:32
  our society and our culture tells us drive the ultimate driving
• 41:37
  machine,
• 41:37
  right?
• 41:38
  You're not happy until you have a BMW or you have a Rolex watch
• 41:41
  or you have a Louis
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Vuitton bag or
• 41:43
  you know these markers these Belbin goods and so so you know we
• 41:48
  we internalize all
• 41:49
  of that and we you know and and by the way in many ways
• 41:56
  quantitative value is
• 41:59
  easier to attain than qualitative value like striving for a
• 42:06
  million dollars could
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: be a lot easier and more appealing
• 42:14
  than trying to find a sense of place and peace of mind in a
• 42:16
  chaotic and destructive world.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's less threatening.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I can look outside myself and say,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can go make a million dollars doing this,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: but to achieve that kind of sense of place,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I have to look inside.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's scary.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can be scary.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: I also think, too, we have to go back to evolution and look at this.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're hunter-gatherers.
• 42:44
  We Since We Were Able To Walk Around Probably Before We Would
• 42:49
  Go Out And We Would
• 42:50
  Gather Berries And Sticks And Rabbits And Bring Them Home And
• 42:54
  We Would Determine
• 42:55
  How We're Doing Based Upon Our Neighbors Berries And Sticks And
• 42:58
  Rabbits Right They
• 43:00
  Had A Rabbit More Than We Did Then All Of A Sudden We're Not
• 43:02
  Doing Very Well
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't You Know It Changes But It's It's All Pretty Much There
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you said one of the people you cited was a woman.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think she was an actress who said that,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: deep down,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: she's still the poor girl from Indiana.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so when she looks in the mirror,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: she might,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:25
  she probably looks past the Oscar and the adulation and she
• 43:29
  just sees that girl
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: that didn't get a hug from her dad or whatever.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's driven her.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's been her fuel.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's been her reason her whole life.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:41
  and if that ever goes away who would she be and she would
• 43:45
  devolve she would she
• 43:46
  would be nothing and so we all have we off we have drives we
• 43:53
  have we you know we
• 43:54
  have we're we dress up well and you know someone's doing it and
• 43:59
  we but we're primal
• 44:00
  beings we're driven by primal needs and primal instincts all
• 44:06
  right couple more
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: questions I want to let you go
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: What are three things I can do to help raise good affluent children?
• 44:15
  Never tell them they don't have to worry about money and they
• 44:18
  don't have to work
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: because they have to do both.
• 44:24
  I think have them develop an identity independent of wealth
• 44:29
  that they can really
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: grab a hold of and own.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times that comes from sports.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times that comes from some talent, painting, theater, something.
• 44:39
  But if kids have a primary identity as being a rich kid,
• 44:42
  it's not going to go well.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in terms of parents,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: modeling,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: modeling the values that you want your kids to have,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: I see parents who like fly private because it's convenient for them.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then they like don't want their kids to become entitled.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: going to be hard to get your butt through TSA, man.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we're understand what you're doing.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like understand what you're doing.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that I feel conflicted about is this, you know, the best.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: The kids like have to have the best.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: They always have to have the newest iPhone.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: They always have to have like the best sports equipment.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: They,
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:35
  they start playing golf and they have to have like a new set of
• 45:37
  the best golf
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: clubs.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I don't know about that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think finding out whether you like to play golf,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think finding out whether,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: dealing with your,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: your
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: iPhone 11 or whatever.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think mine's an 11.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think, I think that, I think those things.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you'll indulge me, I want to play a little word association.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Throw out a phrase.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing controversial in here.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: If it's terrible, you want me to cut it?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: We'll cut it.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a word association with Dr. Paul billionaire.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Conflicted.
• 46:22
  Affluenza Real Private jet Luxurious Wealth Import Success
• 46:43
  Necessary All right Dr.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Paul,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: where can our listeners find out more about you and your work?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Best place to find me is really on LinkedIn.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just Google me.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: My family name is Herc Hokemeyer.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: There aren't many of us.
• 46:59
  Just put it in and you'll find out way more than you ever
• 47:01
  really wanted to know.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my guest this week is Dr. Paul Hokemeyer.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: He is the author of Fragile Power.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: The link to his LinkedIn and his book is in the show notes.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Paul, enjoyed it.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was great being here.