Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 94. Freedom in Mental Health Part 3 with Samuel Stephens

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94. Freedom in Mental Health Part 3 with Samuel Stephens · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:04
Welcome to the for Freedom podcast.
0:32
This podcast exist to bring the freedom of the gospel for
0:36
everyday, Christians, with everyday issues.
0:40
Now, here are your hosts John hollifield and Jay safer.
0:47
Welcome back to the for Freedom podcast here.
0:50
Again with you myself James and John are co-host and excited to
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come to you today. In our Mental Health Awareness
0:57
Month. Highlighting this month of what
1:00
is mental health - what is mental health?
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Mental issues psychological labels how that all affects our
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psyche, our body and our soul and we're having a guest today
1:10
before we get to him. John, how is your week going
1:14
going? Well going well just finished up
1:16
preaching. The Book of Jonah And we've been
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preaching through the Minor Prophets.
1:19
We started that and and had a good Mother's Day and and so
1:25
just it's we're recording this on a Monday.
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And so it's sort of like feeling that Monday.
1:30
Fuck if you if you understand that but but yeah like James how
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about you? That was good.
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I gotta preach yesterday as well on Mother's Day which you know
1:39
I'm as an associate. I don't mean to preach often
1:41
especially at our church but our pastors on vacation and so I
1:44
preached on Priscilla and making an impact.
1:47
And so it was pretty, pretty great time.
1:49
They're talking to our moms and we have just a, it was a great,
1:53
great time. Got to spend time with my mom
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yesterday, and I know you've been out of North Carolina.
1:57
You're not able to be here with your mom and I know that stuff.
2:00
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, like James said, that this
2:04
month we've we tried to do a different topic, each month in
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this month month of May. And our in our world is sort of
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known as mental health, awareness month.
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And so, since we sort of speak into the area of counseling and
2:17
a Look at worldview. We wanted to sort of address
2:20
this on the podcast and if you've stayed with us until last
2:25
two episodes, the James's James and I did then you have it
2:29
abandoned ship and you're interested to hear a little bit
2:33
more and so that's what we want to do.
2:34
We want to bring a couple of guests to you.
2:36
They can speak to this a little bit more in detail than what we
2:40
can. And so the guests we have today
2:43
is Samuel Stevens Sam Stevens and he he is the director of
2:48
training center certification at a CBC the association of
2:53
certified biblical counselors and he's also an assistant
2:55
professor at biblical counseling at the midwestern Baptist
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Theological Seminary. And so Sam, it's wonderful to
3:02
have you on today. Thank you for making time with
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us. How are you doing?
3:06
Yeah, I'm doing well, John. Thanks for having me and James.
3:09
Appreciate both of you guys and what you do and for having me on
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this morning. Yeah.
3:13
Sam. Would you mind taking just a
3:14
minute or so? Tell a little bit about just
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your family. And you're there in.
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Is it Kansas City? We're in Kansas City, Missouri,
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the Missouri side. That's important to note that
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people used as confused as so. Yeah.
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Love to you mentioned a couple of things that I do.
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I'll note the most important parts of me as an introduction.
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My wife, Hannah speaking. About Mother's day yesterday,
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we've been married nine years. This summer, we have three
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children, Audrey Alice, and Ethan 75 and to.
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So we're a busy household. Old right now but the Lord has
3:48
been good to us. And that and I would say the
3:51
another part of my role that to me is even more dire and I love
3:55
a CBC love what I do at Midwestern, but I'm a Leo Elder
3:59
at our church. Local church here and Missouri
4:02
at Liberty. Baptist Church in Liberty.
4:03
Missouri, been an elder their layout or there for about a
4:08
year. Now, working on a year, love our
4:11
church level, we do locally. So yeah, so that's little bit
4:15
about me my family. We've been up here.
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Now for about five years. So I moved up when a cbc's home
4:22
office, moved to Kansas City from Jacksonville?
4:25
Awesome. Well, Sam Brody, he's wrote a
4:28
couple of booklets for a CVC and one that we wanted to discuss
4:32
today. He wrote was titled the
4:35
deception of psychological labels and man, a booklet with
4:39
that title right there is already going to initiate a
4:43
reaction to somebody when they pick it up, but I was able to
4:47
get it. At the last conference and I
4:49
read through it and I thought it was absolutely fantastic.
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I took a couple of copies and I put it out at our church.
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Wanted some people just because what we've been talking about in
4:57
the last two weeks has really been approaching this subject of
5:01
mental health with the world view, a Biblical worldview.
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And so, I really think that that what your work did Sam was
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really push that forward a little bit with a saying.
5:12
All right, what's your worldview?
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How are we approaching this, right?
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Well, I Like what you said the way I think about those titles
5:20
are conversation starters, what it is, it's meant, it is meant
5:24
to grab the attention. I'm not, you know, the purpose
5:28
of the booklet wasn't to be controversial for controversy
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sake, but to help prompt some thinking because I think you
5:34
guys should mention this and previous podcast.
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This whole point of even this Mental, Health Awareness Month
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largely, which is recognized Nationwide.
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This isn't just a few people recognizing this.
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This is built into the fabric of our Our culture in our society.
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And so we want to help equip, you know, Christians to council
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Faithfully biblically, right? But they're going to address
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these issues. This is not an if situation.
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It's when when they have counselors that come in that
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have your have either self-diagnosed or have been
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given a diagnosis or some sort of label or some sort of
6:09
description on their mental, anguish that isn't necessarily
6:13
built into a Christian worldview.
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We've got to be equipped to handle that.
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We've Be equipped to be yes, Winsome and engaging, but
6:21
knowledgeable. And so, this booklets not, you
6:23
know, exhaustive or comprehensive by any means, but
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I'll tell you a nice story of how it came about actually most
6:29
people kind of find this surprising because again, the
6:32
title itself can be a little deceptive, it's not necessarily
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A polemical work, it's not meant to kind of spark again, like I
6:41
mentioned controversy, it actually came out of a
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conversation. I had with the gentleman on an
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airplane. I was flying out to North
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Carolina and to do research for my dissertation and I was
6:52
sitting next to a gentleman that had actually worked out in the
6:55
oil fields of Texas. He was heading back home to
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Georgia. We were flying into Atlanta and
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we struck up a conversation and people always ask.
7:02
So what do you do at that point? I was a Seminary Student which
7:06
always elicits all different types of responses.
7:08
But when I tell them, I'm studying counseling, he just
7:11
turned towards me and the rest of the the plane, right?
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We had an in-depth conversation about problems, his Problems
7:18
life struggles and I welcome that.
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I thank the Lord for that. I always like to throw that out
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whenever I have conversations because it's an open door to the
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gospel and he began to share with me.
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Not really about himself, necessarily is more about at his
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time, at that time, his fiancee who had had a lot of mental
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health issues had been in and out of different facilities.
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Had had a lot of different counselors, and he was really
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concerned about her. He was really concerned about
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her spiritual State and out. Out of that long conversation.
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And some experience I had already had with counsel.
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He's that had have these issues. This book was born.
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I, I landed literally we landed. I went to my hotel room and I
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wrote this book. I didn't want me to, you know,
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was it didn't come out, perfectly added edited a lot,
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but the main pieces were there from that conversation.
8:08
So it's born out of a desire to be helpful to people.
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I want that to be the if you know, your listeners kind of
8:14
walk away with that. That's that's what we're trying
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to do. We're trying to help People.
8:18
Yeah, exactly. So in your words, how would you
8:21
define a psychological label when it even in this
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conversation with this man? Well, you know, did he throw out
8:28
labels? You know, was there somebody
8:29
said that sort of spark that interest or what would be your
8:33
definition there. Yeah, these labels are
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essentially diagnostic term. So I so I don't get into all the
8:40
the, you know, into the weeds necessarily in the booklet.
8:44
But basically, these represent mental As Robert talking about
8:48
mental health. Well, the other side of that
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coin is mental illness. That's that's the whole point of
8:54
General. Psychiatry of the psychology.
8:56
So they're trying to address a problem that they've identified
9:00
as mental illness. So the way that it's come about
9:03
through the history of psychiatry, in the development
9:05
of that profession is a list of diagnostic criteria.
9:09
Different diagnosis of disorders.
9:12
They're not diseases their disorders that's by Design and
9:17
these two Orders have different labels.
9:19
Now, sometimes people come in and they're giving something a
9:22
bit more official, right? I've been diagnosed with, you
9:25
know, bipolar 1 or 2 or something like that other other
9:30
times, it's more General. I mean again like I mentioned
9:32
earlier in, I would say, in Western Society, although it's
9:36
getting into the East to now, psychology is a pretty dominant
9:41
Force. Its and I mentioned in the book
9:44
popularly digested by people through me.
9:47
Media social media in more clinical settings when they're
9:51
going to a doctor. And so you find it in different
9:54
ways, right? People talk about personality
9:57
types, they talk about their own, you know, you know
10:03
disorders, however, they want to put it or they've got actual,
10:07
you know, medically provided descriptors.
10:11
So, that's generally what I'm talking about.
10:13
When I talk about these labels, there are fixed to People by
10:17
Professionals doctors or by the people themselves are very
10:21
deterministic in a sense. Yeah, one thing that we
10:25
mentioned in one of our last episode was not sparked my
10:27
interest as you were talking there.
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What? John had been a statement.
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He said that, you know, when someone is labeled as bipolar or
10:35
whatever, mental whatever illness, it may be, that they
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begin to take on that identity. I am bipolar.
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I am but you made the statement when someone is diagnosed with
10:45
cancer, they don't say I am cancer.
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Right, right? Yeah.
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That's part of the reason that came out of this book.
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I mean, it's and this, this is, again, this is a little bit
10:55
broader conversation, but it's what marks Psychiatry as a
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quote-unquote. Medical profession marks.
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It's so different from what I would identify as traditional
11:05
medicine, a more classical medicine.
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It's these these types of disorders are about.
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The inner man, that's the primary focus and so when people
11:14
are given these types of things, it's very dominating.
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I think it becomes not just how they think about themselves,
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it's who they become and they are very deterministic.
11:23
They're very limited people. Believe they can only operate
11:26
within the parameters of the diagnosis.
11:27
They were given and you don't find that people have cancer,
11:32
they have, you know, kidney problems, whatever that maybe
11:36
they have migraines but they don't, they're not those things.
11:39
They're not the some of those parts.
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And with I find with psychiatry in general, the way it operates
11:44
is whether it's intended or not, I'm not Necessarily speaking to
11:48
motive. But it that's how it that's how
11:50
it comes across. They they are a, some of those
11:54
independent Criterion and and that's who they are.
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It's part of their identity. Yeah, you know Sam I think it
12:02
may be a before I was born but I think there came a time in our
12:07
country where I think people people realize that there's the
12:13
cancer had become such a widespread thing that Whether
12:18
you've had it or not, you knew somebody within your, your
12:22
reach, your touch, your vicinity of circle that had some type of
12:27
cancer. And then we saw this happen with
12:30
even divorce, like divorce had become so widespread that, you
12:34
know, wherever you were, you knew somebody who have been
12:38
affected or and I feel like it may be rapidly.
12:43
Now we're sort of getting to that point with people with
12:48
psychological disorders to where, you know, maybe you don't
12:53
have one. But you know, somebody who has
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been given that label it's become.
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And how do you think that that's happened?
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Very quickly? Well, I absolutely.
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And, and, and interestingly enough we get part of the answer
13:08
as to why that is from within the psychiatric Community
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itself. You know, Jay talked about this
13:13
many, many years ago when he's writing early early writings, he
13:18
had, but he identified as co-belligerent see, identified
13:21
people within the fields themselves that were critical of
13:24
the way the field. Operator, these weren't
13:26
Believers. Well, actually within psycho
13:28
Psychiatry is a fragmented struggling profession.
13:32
It doesn't seem like it from Mostly people side of things.
13:35
But it is, it is it is conveyed, it is very fractured, it's going
13:39
a lot of different directions. It's been in one in one in terms
13:43
of A Critic who are self is a pretty well-known psychiatrist.
13:48
It's a, it's a field in search of a science to defend itself.
13:51
It's always been that way. And one reason why.
13:54
It's, so it seems like, I think you're bringing up a good point.
13:57
John, the reason why it seems like it's become.
14:00
So widespread is because the parameters by which we Define
14:03
mental illness. Has become broad, it's become
14:05
it's becoming ever more broad when you look at the DSM-IV.
14:09
I've used that term a few times for your listeners who weren't
14:12
familiar too. The diagnostic and statistical
14:15
Manual of mental disorders. It's a massive text.
14:18
That's published by the American Psychiatric association, now in
14:21
its fifth or sixth iteration. It is exploded it.
14:27
It's over 500 diagnosis now and it's, there's no, there's no
14:31
stopping that trajectory. And so the, the task force
14:36
chairman of the DSM for Alan, Francis probably one of the most
14:40
prominent psychiatrists in America even today very Critic
14:44
of Psychiatry still, a practicing psychiatrist,
14:46
definitely believes in the systems that it purports and
14:49
these I don't believe he's a Christian but he himself was
14:53
very critical of the way. The DSM is structured, the way
14:56
that it doesn't rely on any type of scientific design.
15:01
It is literally diagnosis and criteria that are put together
15:05
by committee and it's just so it's built on a worldview that
15:08
says expanding the the notion that problems Are actually
15:14
diseases that we shouldn't have any problems.
15:17
And so when we do it's because it's a disease, it's something
15:20
organic is going on. That's wrong, right?
15:22
And that gets into the word disorder and I think the area
15:26
about it that were not thinking about is.
15:29
So, what is their standard of what they're saying is ordered,
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right? Well, that's the issue with
15:36
mental health and this is why it's a term.
15:38
I find to be pretty problematic even for Christians to use.
15:41
What's the standard? What does mental?
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Look like, how do I know someone's mentally healthy
15:45
versus not? And again the other side of the
15:48
same coin mental illness is the same moving Target is the way I
15:52
put it. It's always changing it really
15:54
depends on who's using it. Interestingly enough, when you
15:57
read the DSM, which is about as authoritative in the field, as
15:59
you can get there, very clear that the term mental illness and
16:02
mental health are just fictive placeholders.
16:05
That's what one critic put it. But there, they don't, they
16:08
don't have consensus of what those terms mean.
16:11
And so, you know, You have to read the read the preface no one
16:15
ever does that. I do because I'm a nerd, but
16:17
it's there. They, that it's philosophical.
16:19
This is a philosophical Pursuit. It's not a scientific Pursuit.
16:23
When you read The Physicians Desk Reference, you're not going
16:25
to find that type of talk about what constitutes a disease, but
16:30
you do in the DSM, you do when it when it comes to the
16:32
psychology's and psychiatry in particular, so they're not the
16:36
same and I think that most people, this is something else
16:38
in the book. I'm trying to, at least, get out
16:40
and have a conversation started with us.
16:42
Let's just be With the fact that we can, we can put aside its
16:46
helpfulness or its usefulness, but let's at least put before
16:49
us, that they do not operate within the same rules.
16:52
And so for us to say that it's science or there's consensus or
16:55
that there's even the same way to operate or see these things
16:58
across the Spectrum. No that's why the DSM even exist
17:02
in the whole purpose of the DSM exist.
17:03
At least in its current form. Since the 1980s is to help
17:08
standardize the diet that the diagnostic process because You
17:13
would have this, you can take the same person, put them in
17:16
four, out of five or six, or seven, clinicians and get
17:19
potentially six or seven different diagnoses.
17:22
And that's because there's no science or stability, or
17:27
consistency behind how that's often diagnosed or brought out.
17:32
Yeah, I remember here in David Palace and The Late Late.
17:35
David Palace and talk about this in a way that he said that.
17:39
There's the problem is, is people's to think that there is
17:42
psychology. It's not theirs.
17:45
It's actually psychology's because there's like over 200
17:48
approaches. There's not anyone agreed upon
17:52
scientific method of how you approach these issues.
17:55
It's like over 200 of them, right?
17:58
The they're based in worldview and is gets to kind of what you
18:01
mentioned before, right? So in and again I want to be
18:04
clear here, I'm not in the business of impugning motive.
18:07
I believe at, you know, I want to believe that for the most
18:11
part, all these people are trying to Be helpful to people
18:14
that are in anguish. The problem is they're they're
18:18
they're defining the problem, initially, wrongly, and then
18:21
they're coming about it, built off of that wrong, those wrong
18:24
perceptions. And so that's what we're trying
18:27
to do. Right?
18:27
Is biblical counselors, we want to be helpful, but I think it's
18:30
important. I always tell my students, you
18:32
need to Define first off what help means, you know, biblical
18:36
counseling, the goal of biblical counseling is not to relieve
18:40
anguish. Now I don't I didn't mean I
18:42
enjoy people being an Champagne. I don't but the Lord uses that
18:45
there's the Theology of suffering.
18:47
There are purposes behind those types of things.
18:49
And if my whole framework of counseling is to eradicate any
18:53
as one social commentator, put it any Dizzy's, not disease.
18:58
But any disease. If my whole goal is to eradicate
19:00
that or two to alleviate that in any kind of way, that's my
19:04
intentional goal. I'm a very well.
19:07
Sidestep the gospel. I'm a, I'm a very well, sidestep
19:11
essential teachings of the Bible because there are Certain things
19:14
that were called to do that. Not necessarily invite pain and
19:17
suffering, but may include it and the Lord uses those types of
19:20
things. So worldview is extremely
19:22
important in those types of conversations.
19:25
Let's continue on that road James.
19:28
Yeah, actually I want to flip the two questions John.
19:31
Yeah, I think that's a great idea to us.
19:33
They just don't leave that one for the last thing.
19:35
Yeah, so when we encounter a counseling, we encounter someone
19:39
that has a psychological label are the labels.
19:43
Two or can they be deceptive and elaborate a little bit if you
19:47
answer yes or no? No, that's that's a good.
19:49
That's a good question. I want to go back to what I said
19:53
earlier. When I use this term deceptive
19:56
and I'm not necessarily trying to impugn, you know, the motives
20:02
of those utilizing those systems.
20:03
So there are there are some Christians, obviously I would
20:06
disagree and how we utilize, you know, psychology and view it.
20:10
There are Christians that we would identify as
20:11
integrationists who see. Value in the systems that were
20:15
talking about. I believe, they're trying to
20:17
help people. I think there's some misguided
20:18
nasaan. There's a lot of misguided in
20:20
this but I don't impugn their motives and even the secularist
20:23
the professional. I'm assuming I read a lot of
20:26
these books or I don't just read books written by people who
20:31
agree with me. I read you know people that are
20:33
in the field currently what they're talking about.
20:36
And I'll tell you one takeaway that I get from a lot of these
20:38
books is they seem to really care for the people that they're
20:43
trying. To address.
20:44
Whoever there is reading her text and trying to advance the
20:46
field. So I by deceptive I'm not mean
20:48
that they're necessarily being malicious.
20:50
Now, with that being said, I think the whole framework, the
20:54
whole psychiatric framework, the Mental Health Complex.
20:58
That whole, that whole Paradigm, I do not believe it's helpful.
21:01
I do think it's deceptive. I think it points away from the
21:05
true realities that the Bible lays in front of us and
21:08
especially in the three areas. The three schemes that I bring
21:10
up in the book with purposes of entity responsibility and
21:14
purpose. I definitely think that, you
21:18
know, giving a lot of credence to the psychology's and
21:22
psychiatric language and terms and Concepts and diagnosis and
21:26
particularly these labels there at best or not helpful and at
21:31
worst, they are deceptive. They blind people to what were
21:34
called to look at in the scriptures and that's the
21:36
sinfulness of our own heart. We cannot ignore San directly
21:41
done by us. Of course, but the impacts of I
21:43
mean, we live in a fallen world. So some of these things are
21:46
expected not to say, they're not disordered II, don't mind that
21:50
the term disorder. I use it in the Puritans since
21:53
they used a lot and I love the Puritans but it's disordered in
21:56
the sense that things are not as they ought to have been and that
22:00
since Genesis 3 and so we don't ignore that.
22:02
We see that for what it is. So in terms of that that that's
22:06
why I use that term deceptive. I don't think that they're
22:09
helpful. Are there certain insights that
22:13
even? A secular psychologist can make
22:15
that could be marginally helpful short, not even a CBC.
22:21
Most people are kind of surprised if they're not
22:23
familiar with us or maybe they know a little bit about us that
22:26
we would say that but you know you take someone and even you
22:29
mentioned, John Paulson mentioned this several years
22:31
ago. You know you take someone who
22:33
studies something for several decades, they're going to make
22:36
some general observations about human behavior.
22:39
It may be motive to a certain extent that are going to be
22:41
somewhat accurate. But you know, At the same time,
22:44
I would say that a broken clock is right, twice a day or once a
22:48
day, however, you want to view it.
22:49
So there's going to be some things that are right, but on
22:52
the whole I believe what the scriptures say the natural man
22:55
does not discern the things of God and they're missing on the
22:58
most fundamental aspects of who we are.
23:00
As people anthropology is definitely skewed from a
23:04
psychiatric perspective. There's no doubt about that in
23:06
my mind and so if we're going to utilize any of it, do.
23:10
So very sparingly and wearily, I I would urge though that if we
23:14
spent half of the time spent in trying to redeem some of these
23:19
Godless ideologies in studying the scriptures and making them
23:21
helpful, we would be much further along in our progress as
23:25
a field and so I'm you know I'm a Biblical counsellor.
23:28
I love what we're doing is a field there have definitely been
23:31
Avenues in areas of use being one of them where we have not
23:34
developed it as much as we could have in the past 30, 40 years
23:38
and I'm excited to see that these are areas that we are
23:40
going to be growing, and we're going to be moving for because
23:42
the Bible speaks about these Shoes.
23:44
But I would like to see us focus on building, a Biblical Theology
23:48
of suffering and all these different particulars of the
23:53
issues that people face and stop trying to focus so much on
23:57
trying to make other systems work.
23:59
They don't, many of them are contradictory to biblical
24:03
worldview, that kind of answers your question.
24:05
Yeah, I love the way you said that they're not intentionally
24:09
been malicious and they genuinely want to help.
24:12
I knew yeah. Yeah, but when you don't have
24:15
the truth, it's hard to help the the nature of, man, when you
24:19
don't understand the nature of Man based on a Biblical
24:22
worldview, which is where we're going to get to it in a minute.
24:25
It's hard to help. And, but they genuinely, like
24:27
you said, want to help. We went through an article when
24:30
last two episodes on through Psychiatry.com.
24:34
And we agreed with a lot of what they said, because they
24:37
genuinely want to help, but they just don't understand the,
24:41
again, the nature of suffering, the nature of, man.
24:43
And I do want to just say this as a side, comment.
24:45
I mean, and I do believe that's true that there's but we cannot.
24:51
And this is gets back to what I said earlier.
24:52
We cannot forget that if we're going to talk about what helped
24:56
really means, we've got to Define that term for me.
25:00
Reading the scriptures, there is no help outside of Christ.
25:05
And that's not just an S scattered, you know,
25:08
eschatology, eschatological comment right into times in the
25:12
fullness of Of time, Comet it's here and now people cannot live.
25:17
Fruitful purpose. Filled functional, the way that
25:21
we were designed to function lives without being born again,
25:25
without the truth of the Gospel relating to everything that they
25:29
are experiencing in life. And so in a sense yes they want
25:33
to be helpful but they can offer help not really they can they
25:37
can offer some alleviation of pain.
25:40
I said there's a there's an extra four letter word that All
25:44
Christians should adopt that we can't say, and that's the word
25:46
cope. We don't do that.
25:48
It's a four-letter word. We don't like that word.
25:50
Why? Because we're not called to
25:51
cope. That's not, that's not a
25:53
Christian idea, but the world is built around that.
25:57
I mean, it's all about whatever it takes to cope, whether that
26:02
be through distractions, you know, whatever it may be, you
26:06
can do that, you've got to get through, you know, fake it till
26:08
you make it keep calm and carry on and that's not that's not the
26:12
Christian that's not the Christian Life.
26:14
The Christian Life is the call to actually count may know a
26:17
call to pick up your cross and follow Christ.
26:19
It's a call to come and die and so it.
26:23
So I think there's a lot to even that can be a whole different
26:25
topic. But I really want to press upon
26:28
my students. They come and they want to be
26:29
helpful and I'm all about it. I really am.
26:31
I'm all about helping people. That's why I do what I do, but
26:34
we've got to get that. We even have to get that, right?
26:37
Because if we get help wrong, it may seem pretty insignificant
26:42
from the outset, we're End up in a place that's far away from
26:45
where we want our Council has to be.
26:47
Yeah, I had somebody along that lines.
26:51
As me a question it was it was in regard to a totally other
26:53
subject. And and I said, well, I said the
26:57
reason why I don't want to go that route is because if I had a
26:59
young person, come to my office and said that they were
27:03
struggling with their gender identity and that kind of thing,
27:08
if I go to them and begin in Genesis and start talking about
27:13
the They're made in the image of God and the fall and, and the
27:17
sin and start to, I said, then a lot of what the state guidelines
27:23
would say would be. I would be very much in trouble
27:27
and the person replied to me this Sam.
27:29
They said, well, don't you think?
27:31
Maybe that would be something that you could put aside in
27:34
order to help them further. And I said, No, I said because
27:42
that's where I'm going to start with the gospel I said and then
27:45
I'm going to take him to the gospel.
27:47
I said that's like giving somebody a blanket and a pillow
27:51
and trying to make them as comfortable that can be when the
27:54
planes going and crashed into a mountain.
27:57
I said you're making them more comfortable on their Road to
27:59
Hell. I said, I don't want to do that.
28:02
I said, we that's not help. I love that you said that.
28:07
And in fact, I often say this any counseling system that does
28:11
not bring Christ. You know, first foremost, the
28:15
gospel is not the center. Really the center of all the
28:18
council provided, you can call it whatever you want, but it's
28:20
not Christian and and and I don't, I don't say that in a
28:25
maligning way, but we've got to be very clear about that in any
28:30
kind of situation that I may be and that would say, You know,
28:32
you can share the gospel but only when it's brought up by
28:35
your client or only in a roundabout way.
28:38
I'll just say this personally, I don't want to be involved in
28:40
that. Why would I choose to do that?
28:42
If I believed Christ is the most.
28:44
I'm, it's like me saying, well, I'm going to keep this back for
28:47
when I can really find a way or at best.
28:49
I may never bring it up at all and current integration
28:52
literature. Now has just gone off the deep
28:54
end. It's already its way, it's
28:56
always been kind of that direction, but now they're
28:58
openly advocating for a, Universalist type of approach to
29:01
things. I've read a book, That was
29:02
published back in 2020 that said, you know, written by
29:06
integrationist. I mean key foundational Lawns.
29:08
It's not a, this is not a marginal book and they're
29:11
talking about. Well, we're just going to work
29:13
with with, whatever, whatever worldview or religious
29:16
background our clients have. And that's just, that's
29:19
unchristian. And that's, that's just that's
29:21
right, that's blasphemy. So we can be very careful about
29:25
that. And that's what James and I have
29:26
sort of hammered hammered, at the idea.
29:30
Even couple months back in some episodes that The worldview
29:33
matters because honestly and under this could get us
29:36
sidetracked a little bit of but I believe that the secular
29:40
worldview is not going to hold any prisoners.
29:44
I mean you either you were either with them or you're not
29:48
and I think that the the area of gender identity is one of those
29:52
topics that is really going to separate.
29:55
I mean, I know that there is a large world of the
29:59
integrationist world but I I see it shrinking because you're
30:03
either going to be on their side or you're not.
30:05
Well, and I'm actually, to say, I'm looking forward to, it's not
30:09
the right way to put it. But I think that the day, the
30:13
days already here, frankly, where you're going to find the
30:16
people that truly do, trust in the Lord, and his word, and
30:20
they're willing to, because sufficiency of scripture is an
30:24
easy thing to throw out and people you talk to anymore.
30:27
They're like yeah sufficiency of scripture but when the rubber
30:30
hits the road that looks very different Different.
30:32
I mean you have people like Mark yarhouse, who is the leading
30:35
Evangelical voice for integration in terms of people
30:40
with quote-unquote gender dysphoria.
30:41
That's another psychological deceptive label, right?
30:44
And he he at, he advocates for two things.
30:47
Sufficiency of scripture and in some unique situations, Surgical
30:52
and involvement for gender transition would be.
30:56
It would be okay for people that struggle with gender dysphoria,
31:01
Ibp, publishes his books, he openly advocates for this, so
31:06
that's not sufficient. So you can call it whatever you
31:07
want, snots efficiency because there's no way that you could
31:11
counsel that, right? So that's why it, you know, when
31:15
you get down to the particulars, you're going to really see a
31:18
clear distinguishing line and I think it's going to be helpful.
31:20
Think some clarifying? It's definitely gonna bring
31:23
persecution. I don't think that's.
31:24
That's not me being dramatic. That's just true.
31:26
You go to our brothers and sisters in Canada.
31:28
They can tell you that right now.
31:29
You go to search. So the us they can tell you that
31:31
right now and it's coming to the Midwest is coming to the South
31:35
it's coming and so I think that soon it's going to be not just
31:39
difficult. It's going to be untenable for
31:41
someone that truly has biblical convictions, and they really do
31:44
want to help people with God's word to operate in the secular
31:48
sphere at all. In a professional setting.
31:51
Yeah, well I think maybe we could sort of say we've been -
31:56
we've tried to have positive, but I say, like, maybe this
32:00
final Question James sort of, just sort of wrap it up in a
32:03
more positive spin. Yeah, I don't think I'd only -
32:07
the were I think realistic is the word that you're looking
32:09
for. I mean we're just we're just
32:11
talking what's happening? What's real was actually coming
32:14
down the pipeline and it's not necessarily a negative.
32:17
Take on one point, it's just reality.
32:20
And we're at as a nation where we are as a people and where we
32:23
need to get back biblically aligned to.
32:26
Yeah. And so with that being said, go
32:29
ahead Sam. Why would you say I'm actually
32:31
encouraged? Because I know, I know the end
32:33
of the story. Yeah, I know that the church is
32:35
going to be victorious. The Gates of Hell will not
32:37
Prevail against her, and so it's not a call to retreat.
32:40
Back to the church, it's a call to let the church be who she
32:44
always was supposed to be and that is involved.
32:47
It does include, I mean, we're all pastors here.
32:50
Our role is not just to preach God's word.
32:52
It if that is essential, it is important.
32:55
We're to counsel God's word where to help Shepherd the
32:57
flock, this is what Biblical counseling is.
33:00
And Not even that are our brothers and sisters who are
33:02
church members, who were redeemed people, they're also
33:05
called to to be about the one another's.
33:08
All those things are biblical counseling.
33:10
It's about count. And this is again, I love what
33:12
Palestine has always articulated, right?
33:13
It's bringing counseling back to the church and and Counting back
33:18
to Christ where it always belonged.
33:20
So I'm very encouraged. He will sustain his his
33:22
followers and the world is passing away and its lusts, but
33:26
the word of God will stand forever so we can we can take
33:29
confidence in them. Now.
33:31
Well, I was going to say, give us a word of encouragement to go
33:35
on for a Biblical worldview, but I think you just did it.
33:37
I don't think you could add on that but I wanted to bring up
33:41
that and yeah I will say that. I will I can't add just this you
33:46
know, take heart. You know the the passage that
33:50
come to mind don't grow weary in doing good and you know for your
33:55
listeners for both of you, we're always the world's always been
33:58
opposing, you know. God's word is, that's not new.
34:02
There's nothing new Under the Sun.
34:04
And so, as we continue to do this work, I had a mentor tells
34:07
me this long time ago and it was shocking.
34:10
When I heard it because I had a very naive view of all this this
34:13
ministry, but it's been probably one of the more encouraging
34:15
things that I've kept in my mind and it's Sam, you need to
34:19
measure your Effectiveness, your success in Ministry, not on the
34:24
results, but on your obedience and I love that because I have
34:30
Counsel. He's that do take God's word,
34:32
they take my counsel and there's wonderful change, and God be
34:35
praised. Its that's what I want to see in
34:36
every life that I get to impact. But I don't always see that.
34:41
And but it's about might be me, just being obedient not me,
34:44
being pragmatic, or looking at the results.
34:47
Not looking at acceptance from the world, the world will never
34:50
accept what we're proposing here that I'm under No Illusion that
34:54
that would ever happen or frankly that maybe even the vast
34:57
majority of the Evangelical Church.
35:00
In the United States, what ABS would absorb what we're doing.
35:03
Although I will say that there are many schools and churches.
35:05
I'm not working for. A CBC has been such an
35:07
encouragement. There are faithful brothers and
35:09
sisters everywhere and they're all over the world and they're
35:13
Faithfully counseling. God's word.
35:16
It's wonderful. I mean, we're out there, you
35:18
know, you're not alone, but I would just say to your listeners
35:21
and to you to all of us. I just day in and day out, just
35:24
be faithful. And let the consequences.
35:27
Let those be up to the Lord. He'll deal with those one of our
35:30
work. About the state or with
35:33
secularists would say, or people who oppose God's word, they
35:36
will. Those people have always been
35:37
there, but his word, it remains forever.
35:39
So praise the Lord. We're going to be cleaned up
35:42
here, James. Yeah, any closing comments?
35:46
I'm good. I appreciate you coming on, Sam,
35:48
and it's thank you all of us. Appreciate your time going.
35:50
Thanks a lot for having me. Yes.
35:52
Thank you. And until next time to start,
35:54
son off to God. Be the glory.
36:29
Thanks for listening to the for Freedom podcast.
36:31
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