Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / Breaking the Silence: A Sports Broadcaster's Journey Through Male Infertility with Sam Hargreaves

Transcript

Breaking the Silence: A Sports Broadcaster's Journey Through Male Infertility with Sam Hargreaves · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:04
  Liz Walton: Welcome to the home of fertility, a space for real conversations and expert insights about fertility, healing and creating family.
• 0:14
  Liz Walton: I'm Liz Walton.
• 0:17
  Helen Zee: And I'm Helen Z.
• 0:18
  Helen Zee: We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey emotionally, physically and spiritually.
• 0:28
  Liz Walton: We talk about it all fertility treatments, holistic support, relationships, mindset and the emotional highs and lows.
• 0:38
  Helen Zee: Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you we are so glad you are here.
• 0:52
  Liz Walton: Let's dive in.
• 0:55
  Helen Zee: Hello, hello to all of the amazing listeners out there and welcome to the home of fertility.
• 1:01
  Helen Zee: And what's wonderful about this is I get to speak to some of the most amazing people, and today I'm speaking to a lovely gentleman and his name is Sam Hargroves.
• 1:11
  Helen Zee: How are you, sam?
• 1:12
  Sam Hargreaves: I'm really well.
• 1:13
  Sam Hargreaves: Thanks Liz.
• 1:13
  Sam Hargreaves: I appreciate you having me.
• 1:15
  Helen Zee: Oh, I am.
• 1:16
  Helen Zee: I'm the one that's very appreciative, so thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to chat to me.
• 1:22
  Helen Zee: So let me share a bit about Sam.
• 1:24
  Helen Zee: Now, sam, if you're Melbourne-based, you might know a lot about him and for me it was great to find him.
• 1:30
  Helen Zee: I found him through Instagram, but he is a sports broadcaster.
• 1:35
  Helen Zee: In fact, he is a man of loving of all sports from footy to golf to hockey, volleyball, basketball, you name it and I think he's quite passionate about it and he does a lot of broadcasting and he's a sports broadcaster commentator.
• 1:52
  Helen Zee: He's got his own golf podcast.
• 1:55
  Helen Zee: From what I understand that he just told me Been in radio for 10 to 12 years and is passionate about what he does.
• 2:03
  Helen Zee: And the reason why I found him and he popped up for me is because he's also had his own fertility journey and I'm really honored that he's happy to share this because he's a guy and he's a guy that had his own fertility journey.
• 2:21
  Helen Zee: And when I saw him on Instagram instagram it's something that really literally made me laugh out loud with joy, with love, with just um such acknowledgement as he his one thing is it takes balls to talk about infertility.
• 2:34
  Helen Zee: So, sam, bloody good on you, mate oh, no, it's um.
• 2:39
  Sam Hargreaves: Well, thank you for all of that.
• 2:40
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, yeah, it's.
• 2:42
  Sam Hargreaves: Uh, it's probably not something that gets discussed a whole lot in the world that I inhabit in terms of sport, broadcasting, professional sport and the media or just any really walk of life that men find themselves in.
• 2:56
  Sam Hargreaves: There are conversations that just aren't happening enough for blokes, and there's a statistic that says it's around 41% to 43% of infertility issues are male infertility issues, but I think we all know that that number is probably not accurate, given so many men just refuse to get tested.
• 3:11
  Sam Hargreaves: So we've got to change that.
• 3:14
  Sam Hargreaves: We've got to sort of take the stigma away from male infertility.
• 3:20
  Sam Hargreaves: And I say that knowing full well that the stigmas around women's infertility run far deeper.
• 3:25
  Sam Hargreaves: They've been inherently harsher for centuries when it comes to a woman's ability or difficulty in conceiving.
• 3:37
  Sam Hargreaves: So I'm really conscious of all of that.
• 3:38
  Sam Hargreaves: But when it comes to the male space, just men haven't ever wanted to really admit that the problem could be with them and the idea that, just like it is with women, that sense of if I can't conceive, then what does that mean about me?
• 3:51
  Sam Hargreaves: For men, the whole idea that everything you are as a man is only to be found with what's ever in your Jats crackers, I think is your nuptials.
• 4:01
  Sam Hargreaves: Yes, whichever word we want to use, I think we need to break down the fact that that's just not the case at all.
• 4:09
  Sam Hargreaves: It doesn't it's got nothing to do with who you are as a man, whether or not you can or you can't conceive.
• 4:14
  Sam Hargreaves: I don't know anybody that puts it on their resume what their sperm count is.
• 4:18
  Sam Hargreaves: I don't know anyone that puts it on their.
• 4:21
  Sam Hargreaves: Twitter or their Instagram profile, their Bumble or Tinder account when they're looking to meet someone.
• 4:28
  Sam Hargreaves: But yet when it comes to the moment of trying to conceive, then apparently all of our ideals and ideas about what it means to be a man is wrapped up in whether we can or cannot procreate.
• 4:39
  Sam Hargreaves: So got to change that.
• 4:42
  Helen Zee: Well, I so agree, and I know, look it's it's.
• 4:44
  Helen Zee: You know, again it's.
• 4:46
  Helen Zee: These things get passed down from generation to generation.
• 4:49
  Helen Zee: You know who are we and what makes us a woman, who are we and what makes us a man, and the inability to procreate can have deep impacts on how we feel about ourselves and our sense of self, isn't it?
• 5:03
  Helen Zee: And, and I know with my husband, my poor husband, when this happened for us and he was given the diagnosis of anti-sperm, antibodies, he really didn't know how to deal with it.
• 5:18
  Helen Zee: It kind of shut down.
• 5:19
  Helen Zee: And so, hearing you saying, let's talk about it, let's do something, and you, being a person that is, you know, a podcaster, and talking about it, I just really take my hat off to you and thank you so much.
• 5:39
  Sam Hargreaves: Oh no, that's fine.
• 5:40
  Sam Hargreaves: And I think the other big part of all this is that you know men's mental health, everybody's mental health is really important.
• 5:46
  Sam Hargreaves: But when you extrapolate out to the most jarring statistic in regards to men's mental health is that you know, seven out of ten suicides in Australia are men you wind that back and start to look at what could be some root causes of that.
• 6:01
  Sam Hargreaves: No, I'm not saying that fertility is the major cause of that, but I think that we'd be naive to think that that things like this aren't contributing factors to that overall number.
• 6:11
  Sam Hargreaves: So whatever we can do to eat away at that number to reduce that number.
• 6:15
  Sam Hargreaves: And I think the conversations like this are really important because they feed into that overall conversation around mental health and and looking after our mental health.
• 6:30
  Sam Hargreaves: And I suppose I started to really get passionate about having these conversations when I'm someone who has battled depression, anxiety throughout, pretty much from, I think, probably at the age of 12 onwards, and have had some really really low moments and really really difficult moments.
• 6:47
  Sam Hargreaves: That were times I wasn't really sure whether I was going to see the other side of or stick around to see the other side of.
• 6:54
  Sam Hargreaves: But through all that and having grown up in a household that really valued and spoke a lot and openly about mental health, my stepmum, who came into my life at the age of 12, is, you know, one of the greatest people I know and have had the privilege of knowing.
• 7:09
  Sam Hargreaves: She's a mental health professional.
• 7:12
  Sam Hargreaves: So we spoke really openly and honestly about this stuff and through her encouragement and the work that she did so I've had an understanding of, I suppose, my own mental health and an insight, I guess, into what other people may or may not go through, but the value of therapy, counselling, coaching, and I've tapped into that and it's been an invaluable part of my life and a saviour in my life at times.
• 7:40
  Sam Hargreaves: And so I sort of came into this thinking, geez, if I've got that base level of understanding and knowledge and resource and want to explore that place and to value that and have had the experiences I've had and be able to benefit from it, and still went through what I did when I found out I had zero sperm, I really do worry about men who haven't had the benefits of those things that I have, when they get that news and then how they process it, deal with it, navigate through it, what support.
• 8:18
  Sam Hargreaves: They go and do they even try to get any support?
• 8:21
  Sam Hargreaves: So I suppose that was the key thing for me, because I immediately went, when I got my reading um, to that place of I'm not a real man, I'm worthless, I'm, and I'm thinking, gee, I know better than that, but I still went to that place, yeah.
• 8:37
  Sam Hargreaves: So I really, I really my heart sort of started to go out to to blokes who who't haven't had the benefit of what I've had, and I really worry about that.
• 8:48
  Sam Hargreaves: So I really want to take the stigma away from all of this and, like a lot of blokes, I do that through jokes you know self-deprecation, but not self-flagellation, I suppose and sort of try to take the sting out of it.
• 9:03
  Sam Hargreaves: I suppose for me, and hopefully you invite other people to do the same.
• 9:06
  Helen Zee: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 9:07
  Helen Zee: I love that and I think, you know, when anything is not spoken, there becomes a stigma.
• 9:11
  Helen Zee: So the more we speak about it and come out of you know, come out of the cave, come out of the dark, the conversation then allows it to be more okay, the stigma can start to disappear and dissolve.
• 9:26
  Helen Zee: So, yes, the conversation on all of this is powerful and good.
• 9:31
  Helen Zee: And so, sam, tell me, please do share a bit about your journey and you know, what brought you to this space of you know, having your own journey brought you to this, this space of, um, you know, having your own journey.
• 9:50
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, so I reckon for the most of my adult life I was single.
• 9:52
  Sam Hargreaves: I'd had some long-term relationships, but I'd had a?
• 9:53
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, pretty much a single life as an adult for most of that time, some wonderful relationships throughout, but, um, it had never been on my cards to have kids.
• 10:06
  Sam Hargreaves: But when my partner, beautiful evie, and I started to talk about, uh, wanting to start a family, she said to me have you ever had any almost moments?
• 10:17
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, you know, did you ever get one through the keeper?
• 10:19
  Sam Hargreaves: And I started thinking, I said, gee, I know I never did and did, and that sort of surprised me a little.
• 10:25
  Sam Hargreaves: I'd like to say that I was always meticulous in making sure that that could never happen, but, you know, you're not always perfect in that space.
• 10:36
  Sam Hargreaves: And so then, when we started trying to conceive, naturally I was always sitting in the back of my mind.
• 10:43
  Sam Hargreaves: We'd been a couple of months in and I just didn't have a great.
• 10:47
  Sam Hargreaves: There was just something gnawing away at me, like I don't sort of buy into the fact that I had a premonition for it.
• 10:54
  Sam Hargreaves: Others might, but I just had a bad feeling, yeah.
• 10:58
  Sam Hargreaves: And so I just said, look.
• 11:01
  Sam Hargreaves: And Evie said, well, look, I'm going to go get tested.
• 11:03
  Sam Hargreaves: And I said, look, and Evie said, well, look, I'm going to go get tested.
• 11:06
  Sam Hargreaves: And I said, well, you know, I reckon I should go get tested as well.
• 11:11
  Sam Hargreaves: And again, that never really.
• 11:14
  Sam Hargreaves: I still at that point didn't really think that it was going to be the result that I got.
• 11:18
  Sam Hargreaves: I just thought, well, let's just take something off the table.
• 11:22
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 11:22
  Sam Hargreaves: And given that I was almost 40, or was 40, and my partner's three years younger than me, so you know which this is an awful phrase, but we were both conceived.
• 11:32
  Sam Hargreaves: She, you know, it was concept to conceive would be considered a geriatric pregnancy, which we, we really need to change I totally understand under 40, yeah and uh.
• 11:42
  Sam Hargreaves: So I just said, oh, let's just take that off the table and that's one less thing to worry about.
• 11:47
  Sam Hargreaves: And so I went and got tested and I've got to say, for all the fears about getting tested, the actual act itself is the easiest thing that any bloke will ever do, because they've been training to do it since they hit puberty.
• 12:01
  Sam Hargreaves: So you've never done anything as much in your life as you've done.
• 12:06
  Sam Hargreaves: As this I wouldn't have thought for most blokes.
• 12:10
  Sam Hargreaves: So that part very easy, albeit there's a little awkwardness to it.
• 12:16
  Sam Hargreaves: And this has been part of the, I think, the really joyful side of the conversations that I've had with people about this.
• 12:23
  Sam Hargreaves: And I was actually at the back of a footy commentary box the other day speaking to someone who had not exactly the same as mine but had been through the IVF journey as well, and we were both just laughing about that.
• 12:36
  Sam Hargreaves: You know, did you sit on that couch?
• 12:38
  Sam Hargreaves: No, I didn't, I stood in the middle of it, you know.
• 12:41
  Sam Hargreaves: And again, you might think, if you listen to this, we're working a bit blue here, but this is just the cold hard facts of it.
• 12:48
  Sam Hargreaves: So this is.
• 12:49
  Sam Hargreaves: You know, we're not being gratuitous, this is just the process and what you need to go through.
• 12:53
  Sam Hargreaves: So that in itself I think and I've sort of worked in radio for such a long time and had the privilege of working with a whole lot of Australia's best comedians at various times so I love to try and find the funny in everything and I think there is funny in everything and there's certainly funny in infertility.
• 13:10
  Sam Hargreaves: As strange as it may seem, ivf, there is a lot to laugh about and to you know, to share those laughs with.
• 13:19
  Sam Hargreaves: But anyway, so I went and got that done and I remember my partner had got her results and her infertility was the fact that she just produced very, very few eggs.
• 13:33
  Sam Hargreaves: She had very few eggs.
• 13:34
  Sam Hargreaves: It was going to have very few eggs at her disposal and that really hit her quite hard.
• 13:41
  Sam Hargreaves: But we knew that that didn't mean that it was impossible, we just knew that it was going to be a little bit more difficult.
• 13:47
  Sam Hargreaves: So she had been through that and all the time I'm saying you know, no, there's nothing wrong with you, this is just what it is, it's not anything you've done.
• 13:55
  Sam Hargreaves: Because she started to think well, have I not looked?
• 13:57
  Sam Hargreaves: And she was someone who exercised twice a day, you know eats really healthily and well and heartily.
• 14:04
  Sam Hargreaves: You know eats really healthily and and and well and heartily, and um, and so she went through all of that.
• 14:07
  Sam Hargreaves: What if I?
• 14:08
  Sam Hargreaves: You know, it's just something I've done and you know not, she's not a big drinker or anything like that.
• 14:12
  Sam Hargreaves: So, um, and I threw out the whole time going, no, no, don't think like that, don't think like that.
• 14:18
  Sam Hargreaves: And then, as soon as I got my results, um, and I thought that maybe there was going to be something like.
• 14:23
  Sam Hargreaves: I thought maybe I'll just have a low number or maybe it'll just be like I just, you know, it's not ideal, but there's something to work with.
• 14:30
  Sam Hargreaves: And I was about 10 minutes to go on air to do my show on SEN.
• 14:37
  Helen Zee: Really.
• 14:38
  Sam Hargreaves: Wow.
• 14:38
  Sam Hargreaves: And I saw the call come up and I thought it was someone calling about one of the interviews.
• 14:44
  Sam Hargreaves: I was trying to tee up, so I answered the call and they said oh, it's um, it's um, you know dr palmer, and that was our fertility specialist, dr shandrika palmer, who's a superstar, rock star, um, anyway, and she goes have you got a minute?
• 14:58
  Sam Hargreaves: I said yeah, yeah, I've got about 10 minutes before I go on.
• 15:01
  Sam Hargreaves: And she goes oh, maybe, maybe I'll call back.
• 15:03
  Sam Hargreaves: And I said no, no, no, no, no, it's all right, what are we?
• 15:04
  Sam Hargreaves: She goes well, your results will come back.
• 15:08
  Sam Hargreaves: And I said okay.
• 15:09
  Sam Hargreaves: And she said yeah, there's zero sperm, wow, and it didn't, I don't, I think, I just didn't quite it didn't land.
• 15:20
  Sam Hargreaves: And I just said oh, so when you say zero, do you mean just like that we can use on this occasion?
• 15:28
  Sam Hargreaves: Or I couldn't, it didn't compute.
• 15:30
  Sam Hargreaves: And she goes no, sam, you've got zero sperm.
• 15:36
  Sam Hargreaves: And I just went into shock and I got off the phone and I just it really hit me like a ton of bricks and it's amazing what happens at the age of almost 40, but the first thing I could think of was and I'm getting, I need to speak to my dad Where's my dad?
• 15:55
  Sam Hargreaves: You just go into this childlike.
• 16:00
  Sam Hargreaves: I just went into this very childlike place and I was walking out to go, and I'll never forget this.
• 16:03
  Sam Hargreaves: I was walking out to go and this is part of what made me want to do things like this is because the compassion that I was shown in this particular moment, bob Murphy, who's a Western Bulldogs legend, you know, and just a legend of a human being he was coming out during an ad break of his show and I go on after them, and he just took one look at me and he said oh, something's happened, are you okay?
• 16:27
  Sam Hargreaves: Like he, just the empathetic, lovely soul that he is, he just took one look at me and said you look like, and he grabbed me by the shoulders because I just must have had the most stunned, and you know, I don't know what the expression was and I just and in that he goes are you okay, can I help you, do you?
• 16:45
  Sam Hargreaves: The expression was and I just and and in that he goes, are you okay?
• 16:47
  Sam Hargreaves: Can I help you?
• 16:47
  Sam Hargreaves: Do you need what?
• 16:47
  Sam Hargreaves: You know what's happened?
• 16:48
  Sam Hargreaves: And I said I just need to get out, I need, I need to go.
• 16:50
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, I need to speak to my dad, and he did so, he let me go, and it wasn't till um, a couple years later actually, um, about a year and a half to two years later, after um and spoiler alert after our uh, first son, charlie, was born that I rang him and told him about what that day was and what had actually just happened and thanked him for the care that he showed.
• 17:10
  Sam Hargreaves: But I went outside and I rang my dad and I just went straight into that place of I'm not a real man, I'm less than I'm.
• 17:18
  Sam Hargreaves: It's you know the shame, yeah, that's probably the word.
• 17:22
  Sam Hargreaves: I just felt the shame and and then started to think, well, what did I do to create this?
• 17:27
  Sam Hargreaves: What?
• 17:27
  Sam Hargreaves: What have I, you know?
• 17:28
  Sam Hargreaves: And then I started to look at all my life choices.
• 17:30
  Sam Hargreaves: Have I had too much of a good time in my life?
• 17:33
  Sam Hargreaves: You know, I drink too much and and all those things start, you know, just like attacking your sense of self and your, your identity and all that stuff.
• 17:45
  Sam Hargreaves: And my dad just said, well, look, you know that that's not true.
• 17:49
  Sam Hargreaves: You know that none of that's true.
• 17:50
  Sam Hargreaves: And why are you on the phone to me?
• 17:53
  Sam Hargreaves: You need to go and speak to Evie.
• 17:55
  Sam Hargreaves: So I did and, yeah, she was just.
• 18:01
  Sam Hargreaves: I just think you know that you're going to be with someone for the rest of your life when you have those conversations, and for some people who have been through some horrible things in their life, this might all sound trivial, but for us this was the most important thing we were doing at that point and she just said we'll get through it, we'll find a way.
• 18:23
  Sam Hargreaves: And we just started using language like it wasn't my infertility or her infertility, it was our infertility and we were going to.
• 18:32
  Sam Hargreaves: It was for both of us.
• 18:33
  Sam Hargreaves: So we went and sat down with our fertility specialist and she just said look, yes, I'm not going to lie to you.
• 18:39
  Sam Hargreaves: This is going to be really difficult.
• 18:41
  Sam Hargreaves: It's going to take a miracle for you guys to conceive, but it's not impossible and I believe we can do it.
• 18:49
  Sam Hargreaves: And all you need is one and one.
• 18:51
  Sam Hargreaves: You just need one sperm and one egg and I think we can do it.
• 18:55
  Sam Hargreaves: I wouldn't undertake this if I didn't believe we could get a result and we trusted her, because people can tell you a lot in life and you go.
• 19:04
  Sam Hargreaves: No, I think you might just be trying to fleece us here.
• 19:07
  Sam Hargreaves: We never had any doubts about her integrity, her intentions, her priorities, her support.
• 19:16
  Sam Hargreaves: And so we just went.
• 19:20
  Sam Hargreaves: What do we do?
• 19:20
  Sam Hargreaves: And she said, right, well, there's medication, sam, that you can be taking.
• 19:26
  Sam Hargreaves: And I asked in those moments, have I done this to myself?
• 19:29
  Sam Hargreaves: And she said no, and a lot of blokes might again start to do that.
• 19:37
  Sam Hargreaves: Self the blame, the blame game, she said, to damage the sperm in the way that it is with you to be the number that you are, or the lack thereof.
• 19:47
  Sam Hargreaves: You would have had to have been.
• 19:49
  Sam Hargreaves: You know the amount you would have had to drink.
• 19:53
  Sam Hargreaves: You know you would have to be doing every drug, every like, whatever it was.
• 19:56
  Sam Hargreaves: She just said I would wipe that clear.
• 19:59
  Sam Hargreaves: And she said has anything ever happened in your life that?
• 20:01
  Sam Hargreaves: Have you ever had any trauma to that area?
• 20:04
  Sam Hargreaves: And I just it just like a light bulb.
• 20:06
  Sam Hargreaves: I went, oh, yeah, when I was playing, and so I used to be a rollerblader, not the lycra along the beach kind, but back when it was cool in the late 90s, uh, you know the grinding stairs and jumping, grinding rails and jumping off things, and I was a rollerblader and, uh, or inline skater, and there's a few times when, uh, the legs went either side of a handrail and that hurt, sort of like the funniest video show type things.
• 20:28
  Sam Hargreaves: But there was one moment that stood out.
• 20:30
  Sam Hargreaves: I was playing footy in under-16s and accidentally one of my opponents slid in to get the ball.
• 20:36
  Sam Hargreaves: On a wet day I did the same.
• 20:38
  Sam Hargreaves: Our legs sort of came together but his knee went straight into the Jats crackers.
• 20:44
  Sam Hargreaves: And at under 16, you don't back then when you got to that age, you would sort of shower just in your jocks.
• 20:54
  Sam Hargreaves: You hadn't got to the age yet where you felt comfortable showering in the nude with all the other lads, but even with my jocks on.
• 21:00
  Sam Hargreaves: One bloke said look.
• 21:01
  Sam Hargreaves: One of my teammates just said I don't mean to look here, but have you had a look down?
• 21:07
  Sam Hargreaves: Have you had a look at your balls?
• 21:09
  Sam Hargreaves: And I just looked down and I went holy shit.
• 21:13
  Sam Hargreaves: And I reached and they had swollen up to like I would say, larger than cricket balls both.
• 21:24
  Sam Hargreaves: And it didn't look good, like the kind of thing where you just go when you look at something on your body and go.
• 21:32
  Sam Hargreaves: That's not supposed to be like that.
• 21:34
  Helen Zee: Yeah, that's a big trauma on the body.
• 21:37
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 21:38
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah.
• 21:38
  Sam Hargreaves: So we went up to hospital and I've got great mileage out of this story too.
• 21:44
  Sam Hargreaves: We might be going for another day, but the nurse who came in was quite nice and then she left and I'd had a natural 16-year-old reaction to that and then I would say he was in his 60s.
• 21:57
  Sam Hargreaves: She was very lovely.
• 21:59
  Sam Hargreaves: She said I'll take that as a compliment.
• 22:00
  Sam Hargreaves: The doctor that came in just sort of had a bit of a befuddle.
• 22:03
  Sam Hargreaves: I remember saying that's not for you.
• 22:05
  Sam Hargreaves: He said well.
• 22:07
  Sam Hargreaves: He said well, the good news is the swelling should go down.
• 22:10
  Sam Hargreaves: I missed a week of school because of this and um, probably because it sounds so painful it was, and I and I, and so a lot of frozen peas.
• 22:18
  Sam Hargreaves: Uh, we went, we've gone through, but what we, what she was able to say, is he goes well.
• 22:24
  Sam Hargreaves: Well, that's it.
• 22:26
  Helen Zee: That's your thing.
• 22:26
  Helen Zee: That trauma would have had a massive effect.
• 22:28
  Sam Hargreaves: And she said did you get surgery?
• 22:29
  Sam Hargreaves: And I said no, and she did the thing in her head and sort of went and had a look at it.
• 22:33
  Sam Hargreaves: She said, well, from my understanding of anything like that, at that age, in that period of time, they wouldn't have operated because they would have believed that a younger body would have healed itself.
• 22:44
  Sam Hargreaves: And she said I just don't think yours ever did Right.
• 22:47
  Sam Hargreaves: So there was clearly a contusion, a rupture, and I just wasn't creating any healthy or any sperm.
• 22:54
  Sam Hargreaves: Really yeah, but I know I'm sort of rambling here.
• 22:57
  Sam Hargreaves: But we then she just said look, there's medication.
• 23:01
  Sam Hargreaves: And then we got on two different types of medication.
• 23:03
  Sam Hargreaves: I started doing acupuncture, I stopped drinking, redoubled my efforts to exercise better.
• 23:10
  Sam Hargreaves: We just went through a full, whole lifestyle overhaul, both Evie and I, and she was the same, she was on medication, acupuncture, and then we just dived in feet first and into this IVF journey.
• 23:29
  Sam Hargreaves: And it's not an easy and for anyone that's been through it, it's really difficult, especially on women.
• 23:36
  Sam Hargreaves: My part, as I said before, is easy.
• 23:39
  Sam Hargreaves: Evie had to do all the heavy lifting, just like in a pregnancy, just like in a birth.
• 23:43
  Sam Hargreaves: A woman does all the heavy lifting, just like in a pregnancy, just like in a birth, the woman does all the heavy lifting but after a few goes, we were able to get our one and one and yeah, and we were able to have our first boy, charlie.
• 23:59
  Sam Hargreaves: And I think once we started doing IVF I just started talking about it.
• 24:03
  Sam Hargreaves: I would get on air and start talking about it and I was overwhelmed by the amount of text messages that we.
• 24:11
  Sam Hargreaves: When you're on air at the SCN, a lot of radio stations there's a text machine that in real time comes through.
• 24:16
  Sam Hargreaves: Oh wow, really it can be quite confronting when people are not liking what you're doing and you know it's like social media anonymously they can text in and some of it can be pretty nasty.
• 24:28
  Sam Hargreaves: Majority of it's great because it's just contributing to the conversation of a talkback sports station.
• 24:32
  Sam Hargreaves: But I was just really surprised about the amount of men that text and said, oh, I had some drama too, please don't read this out.
• 24:39
  Sam Hargreaves: And that was the part that I really.
• 24:40
  Sam Hargreaves: That really made me sit up and take notice of the amount of men who not only just said that happened to me, but also how many didn't want it read out, even though I would never.
• 24:50
  Sam Hargreaves: We don't identify people fully when we read these out.
• 24:52
  Sam Hargreaves: But they were so that shame and that a bit embarrassed.
• 24:55
  Sam Hargreaves: But the appreciation and I think, without sounding like a flog admiration for me being so open, because I was sort of on there saying I'm shooting blanks and you know this and I've got to go and do this and and talking about it very, very openly and, um, you know, like you talk about going to the dentist, um, that was sort of our thing that we both were really open.
• 25:19
  Sam Hargreaves: Our families jumped on board my parents actually I'll get to them in a minute, but in in that moment.
• 25:25
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, one thing that really stood out to me about why I wanted to have conversations like this was there was a guy who, ever since I joined sen, had trolled me relentlessly in in the station could, could put up something on social media that would say how many weeks should such and such get for this dangerous tackle on such and such, and he would write sam Hargrove should get life from SEN.
• 25:47
  Sam Hargreaves: This guy just despised me.
• 25:49
  Sam Hargreaves: Everything I did.
• 25:50
  Sam Hargreaves: He would tell me.
• 25:51
  Sam Hargreaves: He would text in when I was on air and tell me how bad I was, tell me I couldn't you know how awful a commentator presenter, all those things you would get into.
• 26:00
  Sam Hargreaves: A mate would send me some stuff he wrote on Twitter about, like this guy.
• 26:05
  Sam Hargreaves: Just there was nothing redeemable about me in this guy's eyes.
• 26:10
  Sam Hargreaves: And I remember the first time I jumped on air and started talking about my infertility and the shooting blanks and all that and doing IVF, he texted in and said, sam, my son was through IVF, good luck with your journey and thank you for sharing.
• 26:24
  Sam Hargreaves: And I couldn't believe it.
• 26:26
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, 24 hours later, he was back to telling me how bad I was.
• 26:30
  Sam Hargreaves: But in that moment, in that moment, liz, we came together and we had a common ground.
• 26:36
  Sam Hargreaves: Awesome.
• 26:37
  Sam Hargreaves: I just thought it actually, and not that I would really want to give this bloke credit for much, but it was one of the things that had me thinking.
• 26:44
  Sam Hargreaves: I reckon we need to be having more conversations, um, like this and the support that I got, that we got our family, my parents, became experts in ivf, like to the point where they're even saying to evie, now you should be here in your cycle that's how my that's how my yeah, that's how my family operate, but um and her parents were just amazing in their support and, um, yeah, we we now have actually two boys, because we did ivf again and it was hard of the second time, but, um, yeah, we were.
• 27:22
  Sam Hargreaves: I was able to freeze some sperm and and so that the so when we started doing all of this, everybody sort of got in behind us.
• 27:27
  Sam Hargreaves: My friends and I had mates that I'd known, a couple of people I'd known for my whole life really, or you know, through school and through adult life who just quietly came up to me when I was, we had a bit of a.
• 27:39
  Sam Hargreaves: We went up to Bendigo, where I'm from, and we were about to go in for what.
• 27:44
  Sam Hargreaves: We had a few false starts and it hadn't gone well.
• 27:48
  Sam Hargreaves: We got no result the first time we did IVF, but we'd gone up, we were confident that maybe we had turned a corner with some things, and I remember getting a few people together and we were at the pub and I was telling them all about this, and a couple of people that I had no idea about, who had kids and who said, yeah, we had some trouble and this is what we did and it's, you know, good on you for being so open, because we didn't really tell anybody and I wish we had of and and that really stuck out to me.
• 28:16
  Sam Hargreaves: But, um, I think the second test that I got done, I had seven, seven sperm, and I remember being not as deflated and disappointed, but still like seven, like of all I've done all these things over the last you know, a couple of months and I said, okay, so is that seven sperm we can use?
• 28:47
  Sam Hargreaves: And Dr Palmer said, oh, no, no, we can't use any of these, these are no good.
• 28:52
  Sam Hargreaves: And I likened them to that scene in the Wedding Singer with Adam Sandler where he points to the freaks on table nine I think it was.
• 29:00
  Sam Hargreaves: Those were my swimmers at that point.
• 29:03
  Sam Hargreaves: They were bumping into each other, they couldn't swim in the right direction, they weren't great.
• 29:08
  Sam Hargreaves: But she just said I got really flat.
• 29:11
  Sam Hargreaves: And she just said, no, this is good.
• 29:12
  Sam Hargreaves: She said we've gone from zero to something.
• 29:15
  Sam Hargreaves: So clearly, what we're doing with this medication, all that you're doing, has sparked something Great direction.
• 29:21
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, so keep going.
• 29:22
  Sam Hargreaves: And then finally, yeah, yeah, she said sam, I'm.
• 29:28
  Sam Hargreaves: This is one of the more pleasing phone calls I get to make, but we have usable sperm wow and from that point, we felt like we were on and, um, as I said, we had a few false starts, um, but we just kept doing what we were doing, and, and, and we got our miracle, we got our one-on-one and that's all we had.
• 29:47
  Sam Hargreaves: Like I said, okay, we've got the one egg and the one sperm.
• 29:50
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, and that was Charlie.
• 29:55
  Helen Zee: Awesome, awesome and many congratulations.
• 29:57
  Helen Zee: And you now have two boys, which is freaking awesome.
• 30:00
  Helen Zee: I'm so happy for you both.
• 30:01
  Sam Hargreaves: Thank you, charlie and Alfie.
• 30:05
  Sam Hargreaves: And yeah, they're just incredible.
• 30:06
  Sam Hargreaves: And you know, I couldn't be any more grateful and I think we were talking before about that concept of not being a real man and what it means to be a man.
• 30:22
  Sam Hargreaves: And I would, hand on my heart, say that I'm a better man than I ever was before I found out that I had zero sperm now than I was before that.
• 30:37
  Sam Hargreaves: And I'm a better man now undoubtedly because the work I did on myself, undoubtedly because the work I did on myself, the support that I got given I gave everything that we went through and we did to get our two miracle boys and now, as a father, as a partner, I felt like I'm better at my job now.
• 31:07
  Sam Hargreaves: So it is amazing that that concept of you know, that whole idea and my first thought of I'm not a real man, to where I sit now and think if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be the man I am now and I'm telling you that this man is far better than the one that existed before.
• 31:26
  Sam Hargreaves: I got that zero sperm count news.
• 31:29
  Helen Zee: Yeah, and I hear you, I so hear and it's lovely to hear, Like I had my own 10-year journey and, as I say that that was a gift, it was a gift because it helped me come home to myself and heal myself and just become more aware and learn more.
• 31:45
  Helen Zee: So I 100% hear that I became a better person, better mother, better partner, better.
• 31:51
  Helen Zee: You know all of these things and that's what I say.
• 31:54
  Helen Zee: You know, although it feels awful, it is a gift and beautiful things will come out of this.
• 32:00
  Helen Zee: You know, when times are tough, we actually grow the most, don't we?
• 32:05
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, yeah, we do.
• 32:07
  Sam Hargreaves: And I think that, when it comes to and I have heard some stories about some other people who have gone through IVF and one thing I'd really say to blokes is that if you put your head in the sand about this, yeah if you refuse to think that it could be you, or if you do get the news that I got and then just disengage with it all, then your partner goes through it by herself and it is a really really and you know this, liz, it is, it is really.
• 32:42
  Sam Hargreaves: It can be invasive, it can be very confronting, physically, emotionally, taxing and draining the whole IVF process.
• 32:52
  Sam Hargreaves: So I just would really love to encourage men again to take the stigma away so that when you do get that news, you don't think it doesn't put you into a pit that you can't see the other side of and can't be able to not the other side of it, because you don't see the other side of the pit, but you can't climb out of and you can't get yourself out of, because there is a set of hands there waiting to pull you out, and that's your partner, and she is waiting for you to do the same for her.
• 33:23
  Sam Hargreaves: You out, and that's your partner, and and she is waiting for you to do the same for her.
• 33:27
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, so I would just really encourage men to to, even if you get the worst news, even if your camp is, like mine, zero, yeah, it doesn't.
• 33:33
  Sam Hargreaves: It's not the end.
• 33:33
  Sam Hargreaves: There are so many things you can do, um to to turn that around, and if you and and and you you know this from your partner's experience, liz, there's a whole lot you can do and there are so many options available to you.
• 33:46
  Sam Hargreaves: But the most important thing about all this is the getting tested.
• 33:52
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, we spent a couple of months trying, naturally, and again when we wanted to have our second, yeah, and if you don't know, you're sort of fumbling around for a light switch in the dark.
• 34:07
  Helen Zee: Yeah, you don't know what you don't know.
• 34:09
  Sam Hargreaves: You don't know what you don't know, and you might be absolutely fine, but take this off the table as quickly as you can, or be aware that it is absolutely what's on the table as quickly as you can, because the strain that your relationship goes under and if you speak to so many people that and I know you have that go through infertility and difficulty conceiving is the pressure that it puts on the relationship, the fact that sex becomes a chore and a task rather than a joy rather than a joy.
• 34:43
  Sam Hargreaves: The fact that it becomes, you know, a job that you have to do as opposed to something that you want to do.
• 34:54
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah yeah, and then you almost then you start to fear it, both of you, and that's a really unhealthy place to be in as a couple, let alone what you're trying to do as a family.
• 35:04
  Sam Hargreaves: And again, I'm not a therapist, but I just know what we went through and I know what other couples have been through.
• 35:07
  Helen Zee: It's not about connection anymore, is it?
• 35:09
  Helen Zee: No, it's not.
• 35:10
  Sam Hargreaves: And how many people have you spoken to?
• 35:12
  Sam Hargreaves: That said, I wish we had got tested earlier, because then we just would have known.
• 35:15
  Sam Hargreaves: Then we just kind of jumped into what we needed to do to turn it around.
• 35:18
  Sam Hargreaves: But the time that you waste, or the time that you spend trying to conceive naturally, when you may or may not have fertility issues that you're not aware of because you haven't got tested, that's a massive strain on your relationship for one and two, and this is the best way I think I could describe it.
• 35:35
  Sam Hargreaves: I know couples have tried for two, three, four years.
• 35:38
  Sam Hargreaves: That's two, three, four years that you don't get with, hopefully, your eventual children, and so I just can't encourage men in particular to get tested anymore because, again, what you will go through from a mental health point of view over a sustained and protracted period of time will be far less, will be far more damaging than that news of you've got zero sperm, if indeed you do, or low sperm, which I know people have got.
• 36:09
  Sam Hargreaves: That's a kick to the you know what, of course, ironically, but what you?
• 36:16
  Sam Hargreaves: Well, the damage that you will do to your self-esteem, to your relationship, to a whole range of things over time, yeah, yeah, it's far worse.
• 36:27
  Sam Hargreaves: So I just yeah again that message of just.
• 36:29
  Sam Hargreaves: You know it takes balls to get tested it really does so go and do it.
• 36:34
  Helen Zee: Yeah, no, thank you.
• 36:35
  Helen Zee: And thank you so much for your passion.
• 36:39
  Helen Zee: I feel it coming out of every core and being of yourself.
• 36:41
  Helen Zee: And you know, just to reiterate, you know, have the test as early as possible if you're thinking of getting pregnant, or even before, just so that you know, because things can be done.
• 36:53
  Helen Zee: And luckily we live in this age where, medically, there's so much support, as well as holistically, you know, with food, with health, with exercise, with understanding who we are as the healthy being, there's a lot that can be done.
• 37:11
  Helen Zee: And also, you know, when you're both going through this, we're both feeling the same, we're both attacking the self.
• 37:18
  Helen Zee: You know whether it's a female going through their fertility journey.
• 37:22
  Helen Zee: We look inside and like, oh my God, what have I done?
• 37:24
  Helen Zee: And it sounds like from the man as well.
• 37:26
  Helen Zee: We look inside.
• 37:27
  Helen Zee: So allow yourself to have the conversation with each other and connect in some ways on a much deeper space than you would ever realize, because then that opens the being, the self, the heart, into a whole new way of being able to connect and also understanding each other on such an amazingly beautiful level.
• 37:51
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, absolutely, and I think just the whole idea of it being the thing that defines you it can, because I feel like for me, it has been in the most positive of ways, as opposed to feeling like it's something to be ashamed of or something that you should be embarrassed by or, you know, something that dictates who you are as a person, because it's not, it's got nothing to do with your value as a person and who you are as it will only do that if you let it.
• 38:27
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, um, and that's really easy.
• 38:30
  Sam Hargreaves: That that might sound really easy to say, but we were really big on that in our house.
• 38:34
  Sam Hargreaves: If ever we were, if ever each of us started using that language of or even apologizing to the other I'm sorry, you know I'm, you know we would we would nip that in the bud straight away, and that was part of the support that we gave each other.
• 38:48
  Sam Hargreaves: We just didn't allow that to be part of our narrative, our conversation, our language in and around that, and I really want that for everybody to say, that it can really knock you around if you let it.
• 39:09
  Sam Hargreaves: And the great thing about a lot of the IVF places that you go to and the fertility specialists that you see, is they will really encourage you to use the counselling services that are there because this is as much a mental thing as it is a physical thing is the counselling services that are there because this is as much a mental thing as it is a physical thing.
• 39:24
  Sam Hargreaves: So, to be looking after your physical health, your mental health, all through this process is of the highest importance.
• 39:31
  Sam Hargreaves: But I think it all starts with the way that we talk about it and the fact that you know I know people that went through IVF 10, 15, 20 years ago and you had to hide it, um, so this whole thing of secrecy, that that sort of surrounds, that which I think we just need to strip all that back.
• 39:53
  Sam Hargreaves: And that's essentially, I suppose, what we did.
• 39:55
  Sam Hargreaves: I just I just started.
• 39:57
  Sam Hargreaves: It was just how are you?
• 39:58
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, not bad.
• 39:59
  Sam Hargreaves: What are you up to this week?
• 40:00
  Sam Hargreaves: Oh, I've got to go in and do a um, do a, an ivf treatment.
• 40:02
  Sam Hargreaves: I've got oh, I've got to go in and do an IVF treatment.
• 40:04
  Sam Hargreaves: I've got a sperm thing.
• 40:05
  Sam Hargreaves: We just started to speak about it as it was as commonplace as going to the GP or going to the dentist, or going to the supermarket, or you know wallet keys phone when you leave the house.
• 40:17
  Sam Hargreaves: I mean, it just needs to be much more of a part of our conversation.
• 40:23
  Helen Zee: And I love that.
• 40:25
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, because then it removes that idea that there is something to be embarrassed about here or something to be ashamed of and there's not.
• 40:30
  Sam Hargreaves: There's not.
• 40:31
  Sam Hargreaves: You wouldn't allow someone to be ashamed and I certainly know that people obviously go through that with any medical issue that they have, and I certainly know that people obviously go through that with any medical issue that they have but you wouldn't allow someone to be ashamed by, you know, the colour of your eyes or the colour of your hair, or the fact that you've got a freckle in a certain spot.
• 40:58
  Sam Hargreaves: I mean, these are just things that for so many people, can't be helped.
• 41:01
  Sam Hargreaves: So why would we allow and why would we create this place where there is something to be ashamed of?
• 41:08
  Sam Hargreaves: Whether you can or you can't conceive how many eggs you have, how many sperm you have.
• 41:12
  Sam Hargreaves: It's just ridiculous, it's just harmful and it needs to really stop.
• 41:18
  Helen Zee: It needs to change.
• 41:19
  Helen Zee: Yeah, and what if it's an opportunity to grow, to learn and to be more, which is what it ends up being.
• 41:43
  Helen Zee: And with this, because I know we're running out of time with this, what I'm, but they are awesome and open up this conversation about men's fertility emotionally, physically, spiritually, in all ways, and that's going to be awesome.
• 41:59
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, I can't wait.
• 41:59
  Sam Hargreaves: I'm really honored to be asked to be involved and I was really excited when you guys reached out.
• 42:08
  Sam Hargreaves: We've done a couple of videos and articles through our IVF provider and our fertility specialist, and the response that I got from a couple of those articles that I put out on my instagram and social media was really, really positive.
• 42:25
  Sam Hargreaves: Um, so I think that what you guys are doing to just and I love even the term expo because you've taken it when you think of expo, I think about expo.
• 42:36
  Sam Hargreaves: I'm old enough to have expo 88 and things like that so are something.
• 42:41
  Sam Hargreaves: There's a really positive tone and vibe to all of that.
• 42:47
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 42:48
  Sam Hargreaves: I reckon even better that if it was even a seminar sounds too serious.
• 42:51
  Sam Hargreaves: So I love the fact that this is an expo.
• 42:54
  Sam Hargreaves: We're going to talk openly and passionately and supportively and humorously about fertility.
• 43:03
  Sam Hargreaves: It's going to be incredible.
• 43:05
  Sam Hargreaves: I can't wait to facilitate the panel, to share my stories, to hear everybody else's, from very different perspectives and lived experiences.
• 43:15
  Sam Hargreaves: It's going to be great and hopefully through that people are able to take something away from it and hopefully help them in what they're going through.
• 43:24
  Helen Zee: Absolutely, and continue the conversation.
• 43:27
  Helen Zee: And so the Melbourne Fertility Expo is happening on the 8th of November 2025.
• 43:32
  Helen Zee: Go to the AustralianFertilitySummitcomau webpage and all the tickets are there.
• 43:38
  Helen Zee: Early birds are happening at the moment and so, Sam, if people are listening to this and they want to go, where can I find Sam?
• 43:45
  Helen Zee: Where is he Share, where people can find you.
• 43:49
  Sam Hargreaves: Well, if they're big golf fans, they can listen to the Course Language podcast, but my Instagram is at SamHargrove99.
• 43:58
  Sam Hargreaves: I'm pretty bad at social media, to be honest.
• 44:01
  Sam Hargreaves: I need to put more time and effort into it.
• 44:04
  Sam Hargreaves: I get told by the radio stations I've worked at and TV and things like that that I should be doing more and I am trying to get better in that space.
• 44:14
  Sam Hargreaves: But I'm a country boy from Bendigo.
• 44:16
  Sam Hargreaves: It's not part of our DNA to be as self-promotional as social media needs you to be or requires of you.
• 44:27
  Sam Hargreaves: So find me there.
• 44:28
  Sam Hargreaves: I still call footy for SEN.
• 44:30
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah, I commentate golf for the Golf New South Wales events.
• 44:37
  Sam Hargreaves: I just did the Australian Oceania Cup for the men's and women's hockey, so the hockey won.
• 44:44
  Sam Hargreaves: And, yeah, it could be any number of places if it's cricket, footy, golf, any of the sports that I'm doing.
• 44:51
  Sam Hargreaves: But my primary role in life is a stay-at-home dad and that's, I think, the greatest privilege that I've ever had in my life that when we had Charlie and now Alfie, that we made the call that my partner is the major breadwinner of the family.
• 45:08
  Sam Hargreaves: She's the superstar of the family, the beautiful Evie, and when she went back to work we decided that I was going to be the one that stayed at home, and that's the greatest title that I could ever put on my Instagram page, or greatest title that I could ever put on my Instagram page or on the bottom of an email signature stay at home, dad.
• 45:27
  Sam Hargreaves: And it wouldn't have happened, I don't think, if we hadn't gone and got tested, so yeah, that's where you'll mainly find me at home.
• 45:35
  Helen Zee: Yeah, no, I love it.
• 45:36
  Helen Zee: And always that opportunity to grow.
• 45:38
  Helen Zee: You know, life is an amazing teacher, isn't it?
• 45:40
  Sam Hargreaves: Yeah.
• 45:41
  Helen Zee: It really is.
• 45:42
  Helen Zee: So, sam, thank you so much for sharing you with such heartfelt words, your journey and just about, you know, letting everybody know it's okay to have the conversation.
• 45:57
  Helen Zee: So thank you so much for your time.
• 46:00
  Sam Hargreaves: It's my pleasure, Liz.
• 46:00
  Sam Hargreaves: Thanks for everything that you guys are doing in this space.
• 46:08
  Helen Zee: And I look forward to seeing you at the Melbourne Fertility Expo and also meeting your family too, because please bring them all down and, yeah, let's break all this stigma and support everybody to know that there's always an opportunity to grow and to create the health and the fertility that they want.
• 46:23
  Helen Zee: Absolutely All right.
• 46:30
  Helen Zee: Then with that I will say goodbye and thank you very much.
• 46:31
  Helen Zee: Thanks for joining us at the Home of Fertility.
• 46:34
  Helen Zee: We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort and connection.
• 46:41
  Liz Walton: If this podcast resonated, please share it, leave a review or subscribe.
• 46:53
  Helen Zee: This helps us support more people that are on this path, and if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook.
• 46:57
  Helen Zee: At Australian Fertility Summit.
• 46:59
  Liz Walton: Remember, the missing piece might be waiting in a story, your body's wisdom or something new just made for you.
• 47:08
  Helen Zee: Take care and we'll see you next time.