Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Safety as a System (SaaS): Building Better Track Cars

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Safety as a System (SaaS): Building Better Track Cars · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

• 0:00
  Grand Touring Motorsports started as a social group of car enthusiasts,
• 0:04
  but we've expanded into all sorts of motorsports disciplines, and we
• 0:08
  want to share our stories with you.
• 0:10
  Years of racing, wrenching, and motorsports experience brings
• 0:13
  together a top notch collection of knowledge and information
• 0:17
  through our podcast, Brake Fix.
• 0:22
  What's going on, everybody?
• 0:23
  Tonight, it's your host, Brad, and with me as always is Eric.
• 0:27
  If you've been following along with our previous episodes, you'll note
• 0:31
  that we've been focusing on what it takes to get involved in motorsports.
• 0:34
  We've covered everything from picking the right starter car to getting
• 0:37
  ready for your first event and different programs and organizations
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  that exist in this community.
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  And on tonight's episode, we continue this talk track as we dig in
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  deeper, talking about the questions that's always on everyone's mind.
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  And with us tonight, we have returning guest Crutch on behalf of the GTM
• 0:53
  coaches, along with our special guest, Mark Francis from OG Racing,
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  one of the largest motorsport safety distributors in the US, to discuss a
• 1:01
  concept we call Safety as a System.
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  Welcome to the show, Mark.
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  Hey, Eric.
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  Thanks for having me.
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  I don't think we can deny the fact that we all get excited over buying
• 1:11
  yet another mod for our cars.
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  And lots of people buy items like seats and belts and steering wheels
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  without really knowing what the impact to them or their vehicle might be.
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  So our plan tonight is to address some of the more popular safety items
• 1:27
  with Mark and explain the do's and don'ts, as well as talking about how
• 1:31
  they're designed to work together.
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  So how about we get into it?
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  So Mark, first up, let's talk about steering wheels.
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  Should drivers be changing them?
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  Should they be going to a smaller size, a larger size?
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  Is there a debate about leather versus suede?
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  I found that leather versus suede really for drivers picking aftermarket wheel
• 1:49
  for their car comes down to preference.
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  I generally tell guys when they're looking at wheels, if it's a dual purpose car,
• 1:56
  you know, it's a car they drive to work or at least sometime on the street.
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  A suede wheel with the oils and things from our skin will
• 2:04
  eventually wear on them over time.
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  Where, you know, in a race car, you got gloves on, so you don't have that issue.
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  On my track car, I prefer suede.
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  I just like the feel for some reason.
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  The two really comes down to preference.
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  I do discourage guys sometimes think they want to go down to like a smaller
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  wheel, which, you know, if you drive a car without power steering, that
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  smaller wheel requires more effort to turn the car as you're turning in and
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  exiting the corner, especially in like air cooled 911, no power steering.
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  It's better to have a 350 millimeter wheel because it
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  gives you a little more leverage.
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  I've, I've no guys who like bigger three 80 or so when you jerk around and call
• 2:40
  them a school bus wheel, but Sparco makes, yeah, we have the, we have the opposite
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  problem on the front wheel drives.
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  We always go with smaller wheels, so they'll turn in quicker.
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  It just makes, makes life a little easier.
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  So I guess it comes down to the type of car, but you know, what you've said
• 2:54
  so far makes a heck of a lot of sense.
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  Should people swapping wheels be concerned that they're losing their air bag?
• 3:00
  That's, that's a good question.
• 3:02
  Yeah, I'll take the official line that if the car is a street car
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  registered in a state that has a safety inspection, you are not supposed to
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  remove the airbags steering wheel.
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  Now they're saying with the new cars with the smart airbags being part of
• 3:14
  the system and built into the seats, that debate has raged on the forums.
• 3:19
  I don't own a car new enough to have that problem.
• 3:22
  You know, the cars on the track have airbags in them.
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  I have seen car have a single car off at some point years ago.
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  You know, 80s car had, you know, early first generation airbags in
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  it and he didn't even hit anything.
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  He hit a bump, you know, going through the gravel trap and turned three at summit in
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  the airbag deployed, burned his wrists.
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  It was a summer event where they were allowing short sleeve shirts
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  and he drove into the pits and tossed it out onto the ground of the pit
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  lane and went back on the track.
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  I have seen, there was some car.
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  One of the recent generations, it was, it was some performance car was like a
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  Corvette or Mustang or something that was actually, I think it was one of the
• 3:57
  Corvettes was actually having a problem with accidental airbag deployment during
• 4:01
  spirited driving where people were driving around racetracks and the airbags would
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  just happen to trigger in some situations.
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  And this wasn't just the wheel airbag.
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  I think it was one of the side curtains too.
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  So there's always the risk of that, but then that gets back to the
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  whole safety as a system thing.
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  Whereas if you're taking out that Steering wheel airbag, you know, that's part of
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  your defense against the type of neck injuries that the full harness hands
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  and helmet and all would take care of.
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  So Exactly are taking a risk by swapping out just that steering wheel when not
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  going with the rest of the system as we're going to talk about I mean, I
• 4:36
  think you're taking a risk if you have a car equipped with Takata airbags to
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  begin with so I have removed all of mine and we'll move on from that statement.
• 4:44
  You mean claymores?
• 4:45
  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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  So with that actually, I got the recall for my m3 I need to make
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  the appointment of the dealer.
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  It's in stock now to replace mine Yeah, my recall is right in the waste
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  bin But uh with that being said so people the next thing people really
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  get excited about for their car, you know I'm going to the track.
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  I gotta buy seats And they don't realize what they're getting themselves into
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  And it blends itself to a conversation not just about seats and proper
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  seats, but belts You And harnesses and all sorts of other things.
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  So let's begin to slowly unpack that.
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  Let's talk about seats.
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  There's all sorts of different kinds of seats out there.
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  Be them fixed back metal fiberglass, Kirky aluminum, and then you have
• 5:30
  your adjustable seats, et cetera.
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  Let's talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to
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  these different seats, especially in the context of motorsport.
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  I'll share a conversation I usually have when I get a say like an
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  HPD to, you know, PCA blue group.
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  I'm not sure how you guys break your run groups down, you know, the driver
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  that's maybe had his 1st solo, you know, he's talking about putting
• 5:54
  our compound tires on the car.
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  And then when we get into the discussion about seats, you know, they'll ask me,
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  but, you know, should I get like, what about like a reclining sports seat?
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  And I tend to steer them if they're going to do it.
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  You know, if this is a car that's primarily track, then a fixed
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  back seat is a better option.
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  The sport seats I've found don't provide as much lateral support.
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  And it's, it's amazing with these guys when they, you know, you have a
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  guy that's been driving with a street seat or even, even like a reclinable
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  seat that has at least shoulder pass throughs to run like a four point belt.
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  And I guess we'll discuss the belts in a little while, but when
• 6:31
  they get into the fixed back seat, that's when they realize how much.
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  They were holding on, you know, whether pushing their knee against the door,
• 6:38
  holding onto the steering wheel to keep themselves centered in the seat.
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  And they're like, you know, I should have done this two years
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  ago because it, a proper race seat keeps you centered, relaxed.
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  So you're, you're not using your, the muscles in your body to try
• 6:52
  to stay put and keep from sliding.
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  You know, I, I did it when I was a beginner knee pushing on the door
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  panel to try to keep me in the seat.
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  You know, my feeling has always been if, if you're gonna put seats in
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  track card, especially if you have.
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  aspirations for moving on to time trials or club racing at some level.
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  Skip the sports seat because you're going to get to the
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  wanting a fixed back seat anyways.
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  So how does one choose the right seat?
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  I know that's always a big thing, right?
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  It's like almost like buying shoes.
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  So in your opinion, how do you, how do you choose the right seat for
• 7:24
  you or for your car for that matter?
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  I tell people that I talked to that, you know, don't live near an
• 7:29
  OG racing where we have a showroom.
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  You know, seats out on display.
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  You can walk in there and spend three hours trying on seats just
• 7:36
  like you could try on shoes.
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  But I'll encourage him when you're at the track, you know, go talk to the guy who's
• 7:41
  there has got a race car there in cage.
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  Say, Hey, you mind if I sit in your seat?
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  And then I also tell him, you know, don't walk over there eating a chili dog.
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  and have food all over your fingers or screwdrivers in your pockets,
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  you know, be mindful of that.
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  A lot of guys will probably say, sure, man, have a seat.
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  You know, if you don't have an idea of what fits, it's hard to pick one.
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  They all fit a little differently.
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  You know, we have, you have a lot of manufacturers out there, Sparco, O&
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  P, Racetech, Recaro, some of the other ones that the tuner guys like, I think
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  the bride seats and Momo, Seibelt, the Kirky aluminum seats, Butler seat, you
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  know, the list goes on and on and on.
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  But they're all sort of shaped a little differently in the case of
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  like the fixed back seats that are FIA certified, they've passed the same
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  testing and of course, with exception being the race tech seats that have
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  that newer certification up to 60 G's.
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  I forgot the number on it, but our body types are all different.
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  So, you know, find one of these seats, you know, uh, SPARCO and O&
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  P Ricardo, they're all high quality.
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  They've all been designed properly, gone through the testing,
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  the safety testing on them.
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  I've seen the end results of rollovers, hits in the tire wall,
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  multiple hits in the tire wall, hits in concrete walls with all of them,
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  and it's amazing that they hold up.
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  They do.
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  I've got one in my basement.
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  The car was, and while at some point on the outside going into one, the
• 9:01
  car rolled three twice in the air and turned around and came down with
• 9:05
  the back end facing the skid pad.
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  Landed upright and the seat held.
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  The side mounts, as soon as we unbolted them from the seat, they sprung crooked.
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  But everything stayed in place, driver walked away and was in the
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  paddock, but go for fit because a race seat is just like a pair of shoes.
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  There's nothing worse than walking around all day and a pair
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  of shoes that don't fit right.
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  Or pants that are that don't fit right, you know, think of the seat that way
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  because, you know, that's your desk, you know, think of that as the business and.
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  When you're in the cockpit, that's what's keeping you secure, you know,
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  along with the rest of your safety system, you know, your harnesses and
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  everything, but, you know, that's the office you want it to be comfortable.
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  I was just going to piggyback on what Mark was saying about walking around
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  the paddock and talking to people and asking if you can sit in their seats.
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  If you're going to do that, look for someone that's got
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  a similar body type to yours.
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  Good point.
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  I meant to say that you'll hear it in our big guy, little car episode, but there's
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  several people that we're all six, four.
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  I mean, there's like five or six of us that are six, four,
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  six, five in the group, but we all have different body types.
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  We're all different sizes and we don't fit in each other's cars because of that.
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  So look for somebody that's of a similar build to you and then
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  ask if you can sit in their car, assuming they have this stuff that
• 10:18
  you're, you're interested in buying.
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  Okay.
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  Yeah, it's an excellent point.
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  A lot of people nowadays are shopping online for a lot of things.
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  And maybe, you know, I found that great deal on Amazon for that,
• 10:28
  you know, Corbo seat or something.
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  I don't know.
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  Is there a guide though that, you know, how to measure yourself and
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  then measure a seat for fitment?
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  Like, as an example, um.
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  I find the older Corbeau TRS is super comfortable.
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  A lot of people hate them.
• 10:42
  I also find the Sprint 5 extremely comfortable, but it's a very narrow seat.
• 10:46
  My sister has a Sparco Corsas.
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  I hate them.
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  They're way too narrow, right?
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  They're way too, just too thin.
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  I've also found like the Evo 2 US is more comfortable than the Evo 2.
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  You know, things like that.
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  But I also know my measurements because I've sat in a lot of different seats,
• 11:02
  like, you know, minimum, you know, so many inches on the bottom and, and
• 11:05
  height and all this kind of thing.
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  But is there a good reference or a guide out there for people that are shopping
• 11:10
  that aren't able to go to a showroom?
• 11:12
  Yeah.
• 11:13
  All the manufacturers do put out their own sizing charts where they'll
• 11:17
  measure, you know, width across the shoulders, torso length from bottom of
• 11:21
  the seat to the shoulder belt cutouts.
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  They'll measure in the hip area.
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  at the front end of the seat, you know, between your thighs
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  and your and your knees.
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  But they, they tend to measure some areas a little differently.
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  We've been trying to standardize it, you know, so you could
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  do a side by side comparison.
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  Right now with the manufacturers, you know, doing certain measurements on,
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  they vary, um, it's hard to compare a Recaro For SPARCO to an OMP because
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  of their sizing charts are different.
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  I've tried to take that data, one, put it in U.
• 11:52
  S.
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  standard of measurement, and also try to get the measurements from
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  the same points to do a comparison.
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  Where I try to give them a starting point is, you know, make sure it's not too tight
• 12:02
  in the hips where it's going to pinch.
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  Because, you know, that'll lead to discomfort over the course of
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  a 30 minute session on the track.
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  And also the, you know, the importance of making sure your shoulders are
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  not totally above the shoulder belt openings, where it makes the shoulder
• 12:18
  belts have to go in an incorrect angle.
• 12:20
  It would create compression when you tighten the belts.
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  You know, we try to avoid that.
• 12:24
  I tell them to sort of use that as a starting point.
• 12:26
  We've talked a lot about different kinds of seats.
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  And one of the next things that comes into question is whether those
• 12:33
  seats should be fixed or on sliders.
• 12:36
  What is your recommendation when it comes to that?
• 12:38
  If you're using a proper double locking slider available from Sparco,
• 12:42
  OMP, Recaro, and if you're sharing a car, you know, in a lot of cases,
• 12:48
  person's not able to fix mount it.
• 12:50
  And, you know, my race car, I had a slider in it because my wife drove it.
• 12:54
  And if you have a, you know, height difference, you know, it can't fit.
• 12:57
  You know, if Brad and I were to, if we're going to share a car, you know, we're
• 13:01
  going to have to have a slider in the car.
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  You know, being that he's 6'4 The times where I've seen people not use them is
• 13:07
  Person not sharing a car and it's somebody who's tall because someone who's short,
• 13:12
  you know, where their seats position when they're driving may now, but they have
• 13:15
  trouble getting in and out of the car.
• 13:17
  I've seen that too.
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  You know, in the event they had to get out of the car in a hurry, they're squeezing
• 13:21
  out because the seats fix mounted and you know, they're five foot three
• 13:24
  sitting right up on the steering wheel.
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  I've also heard some wives tales about sliders aren't safe because it's a
• 13:31
  failure point in the whole system there.
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  This is where you run into.
• 13:36
  People buying stuff on eBay.
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  Counterfeit sliders that aren't double locked that could fail.
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  The lock mechanism fails.
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  Now, if you have a race seat in the car with harnesses on and
• 13:47
  everything, the harnesses are attached to their mounting points.
• 13:51
  The seat can't go forward and slam you into the, you know, into the dashboard.
• 13:54
  You know, because the harnesses aren't going to allow it.
• 13:57
  It goes down to, you know, proper installation in most cases.
• 14:01
  You know, rarely have I seen a slider made by a motorsports manufacturer fail.
• 14:05
  The car I was telling you about that had the big hit at some point and
• 14:08
  the rollover, and it was airborne and came crashing down, fortunately right
• 14:12
  side up, that car had a slider in it.
• 14:15
  The slider was, you know, we threw all the, all the hardware was replaced
• 14:20
  afterwards, you know, because it was such a violent impact, but it did not fail.
• 14:24
  Everything was still locked in place where it should be.
• 14:27
  So that brings up an interesting question that often comes up, which
• 14:30
  is when you're using a fixed back seat without a roll hoop, without any type
• 14:37
  of roll bar, you now are in a seat that has no way of deflecting out of the
• 14:41
  way in a rollover crash, and you are.
• 14:44
  Also, held more upright in a rollover crash.
• 14:47
  My thoughts on that, when I have a person asking about seats, my
• 14:50
  next question is, Do you have a roll bar or a roll cage in the car?
• 14:54
  Are you going to be installing one when you put the seats in?
• 14:57
  And I'll tell people if they say, No, I'm going to do that later, that I
• 15:01
  tell them to don't do the seats now.
• 15:03
  The beginners don't see it as a system.
• 15:05
  They see it as, Oh, I can add this piece.
• 15:07
  And then next month I'll add that piece.
• 15:10
  If you're going to do it right.
• 15:11
  When you get to that crossroads, when you're driving on the track, you know,
• 15:15
  when people start talking about racing tires, Oh, I'm going to put a super truck.
• 15:19
  I'm going to, I'm going to do a flash on my nine, nine, seven turbo.
• 15:23
  Are you putting seats in a roll bar?
• 15:25
  Oh no, I'm going to use three point belts.
• 15:26
  That's what I'll tell them.
• 15:27
  Don't please don't do that.
• 15:30
  I tell them, you know, whether it's someone I'm instructing, who
• 15:33
  asks me or someone who's asking me.
• 15:36
  You know, in my role at O.
• 15:37
  G.
• 15:37
  Racing, you know, which there's so much overlap, you know, for me, it's just
• 15:42
  about one of the same at this point, I will tell them when you're going to a
• 15:45
  fixed back seat, you want to start using harnesses, roll bar or roll cage, you
• 15:50
  know, obviously, if it's a dual purpose car, you don't want to tell the output
• 15:53
  of, you know, put a cage with NASCAR bars and everything in a car, you're
• 15:56
  going to drive on the street, you know, that presents its own safety hazards.
• 16:00
  You know, like hitting your head on that section of the cage in the front
• 16:03
  with no helmet on , if you're driving the car on the street, it's very
• 16:07
  refreshing to actually hear someone in the business say that because we have
• 16:11
  had experience with other vendors that have toed the benefits of, uh, fixed back
• 16:17
  seats that'll hold you in place better.
• 16:19
  And you know, it's a cheap and easy upgrade and that's the only thing you
• 16:22
  need to do to get better lap times.
• 16:24
  It's good to hear vendor proper advice.
• 16:27
  I'm, if you have a person that's not putting the roll
• 16:29
  bar rollover protection in.
• 16:31
  And you're going to sell them a fixed back seat.
• 16:34
  And what are they using for?
• 16:35
  Are they using a three point seatbelt?
• 16:37
  A racing seat with the higher bolsters on the sides.
• 16:41
  There's another set of problems you're creating with the lap belt, not being able
• 16:45
  to, you know, that retracting locking.
• 16:47
  Part of your street safety system, not functioning properly.
• 16:52
  If it's not over your hips, Like you said, three point with a fixed back seat with
• 16:57
  will cause submarining in an accident.
• 16:59
  I've heard that, you know, harnesses with a, with a regular stock
• 17:03
  seat or adjustable seat, we'll break your pelvis in an accident.
• 17:07
  And I've seen people do that.
• 17:09
  I've seen guys get in the car and take their three point.
• 17:11
  It goes right over the top of those.
• 17:13
  Tall five bolsters, you know, like on a O and P WRC or a Cobra Suzuka seat.
• 17:18
  That's got those big, tall five bolsters.
• 17:21
  I'm like, you're going to slide right underneath it.
• 17:23
  You know, because the pretension thing that locks it, you know, in the event
• 17:26
  of the hard deceleration or an impact isn't going to be able to function
• 17:30
  because the belt's not across your hips.
• 17:32
  And I think that's the overarching theme of this entire
• 17:35
  episode is safety is a system.
• 17:37
  Yeah, you can upgrade your seats and your harnesses and you get your head
• 17:41
  and neck restraint and everything and the roll bar, that itself is
• 17:45
  a system, but your car's stock OEM equipment is a system in and of itself.
• 17:51
  Yes, so if you start mixing.
• 17:53
  That's in pieces of the two.
• 17:56
  They don't, the pieces don't fit.
• 17:58
  They become a disparate system.
• 18:00
  That's what they're known as.
• 18:02
  I think you touched on something really important here as we lead into
• 18:05
  the conversation about belts versus harnesses, but there's one more piece
• 18:08
  to the seat equation that I don't think a lot of people understand, but
• 18:12
  it does lean itself to another later part of the conversation where we
• 18:16
  talk about head and neck restraint, because again, this is all a system.
• 18:19
  The whole point of the conversation here is we are building up the To
• 18:22
  a kind of final package, what you should be really at and that, that
• 18:26
  investment that you need to make.
• 18:28
  So the other one here about seats in particular is halos and everybody looks
• 18:31
  at them and goes, Ooh, that's super cool.
• 18:34
  That halo seats really kind of neat.
• 18:36
  But the problem is there's a time and a place for a halo seat, just like there's
• 18:40
  a time and a place for a fixed back seat.
• 18:41
  So would you care to elaborate on the whys and why nots of a halo seat?
• 18:46
  Yeah.
• 18:46
  Okay.
• 18:46
  The whys.
• 18:47
  In a race car with the rest of your proper safety system, it's a good idea.
• 18:53
  It protects, you know, from that lateral impact.
• 18:57
  Pancake into a door, car hitting you in the door.
• 19:00
  You hitting it, hitting the tire wall into the door.
• 19:03
  You know, the head neck restraints are primarily focused on that forward motion.
• 19:08
  Now, with the advent of some of the newer ones, like the, you know, the Simpson
• 19:12
  hybrid s that the way the tethers are designed, it is To help sort of offset
• 19:17
  impact to keep your head straight.
• 19:18
  Halo seats in a race car.
• 19:20
  Good idea.
• 19:21
  Halo seats in a dual purpose car.
• 19:22
  You're driving on the street.
• 19:24
  Not so good idea because they limit some of your side vision
• 19:27
  that you need on the street.
• 19:29
  You know, that quick look over your shoulder, changing lanes, you know,
• 19:32
  where you go to check your blind spot.
• 19:33
  Can't do that with a halo seat in street driving.
• 19:36
  And we're not going to get into the extreme versions of these systems,
• 19:39
  but with a halo, the expectation is that there's a window net.
• 19:42
  And that there's arm restraints, there's all sorts of other things that a full
• 19:47
  club racing car would have that your normal HPDE driver just getting started
• 19:51
  with, who were, you know, catering to in this particular conversation, that's way
• 19:55
  beyond what they need to go to the track.
• 19:58
  Yes.
• 19:59
  Yeah.
• 19:59
  For, for our HPDE friends and students, customers, you know, wherever
• 20:04
  you want to refer to us, it's not something that's highly required.
• 20:08
  You know, it's, that's my personal feeling on it.
• 20:10
  You know, like your car, if you made the out of your full on race
• 20:13
  car, I would say, yeah, it's, it's another part of the system that
• 20:17
  reduces your chances of injury.
• 20:20
  You know, should you have an impact or, you know, an off that leads to an impact,
• 20:23
  you know, especially our guys with the dual purpose cars, we have a lot of them.
• 20:27
  I see a lot of them at the, you know, whether it's one of your events, PCA,
• 20:30
  driver's ed, BMW, CCA, HPDE, NASA.
• 20:34
  You know, there's a lot of guys driving the cars to the track.
• 20:37
  One of my coworkers does it.
• 20:39
  He's got race seats in his car and a harness bar, which I keep
• 20:42
  telling you need a roll bar, dude.
• 20:43
  You need a roll bar because he's getting up to the point he's soloing now.
• 20:47
  Now he's still on street tires, you know, so I'll give him that.
• 20:50
  He hasn't like slept Hoosiers on the thing yet.
• 20:52
  But what I want to talk about Mark next is really the difference
• 20:55
  between a belt and a harness.
• 20:56
  So do you want to explain 3.
• 20:58
  4 0.
• 20:58
  5 0.
• 20:59
  6 point?
• 21:00
  I mean, soon they're going to be up to 10 points, right?
• 21:02
  So what does all that mean to somebody that's just starting out?
• 21:05
  Well, of course I tell people, you know, we all use the term.
• 21:08
  Oh, what kind of belts do you have in the car?
• 21:10
  Even though what we are referring to are their racing harness.
• 21:13
  Obviously, belts to the beginner, three point seatbelts.
• 21:16
  I know that there are some four point ones out there now.
• 21:19
  It used to be that going on the track, a lot of car clubs would
• 21:23
  not let you use a four point with a race seat on the racetrack.
• 21:27
  Because it did not have, you know, an anti sub belt.
• 21:31
  Which is that belt that comes up between your legs to keep you from
• 21:34
  sliding out from under the belts.
• 21:36
  Now, I know that Schroth makes one that has that, where it,
• 21:39
  it tensions the shoulders.
• 21:41
  I, I forgot how they work.
• 21:42
  I, I haven't tried them.
• 21:45
  I'm pretty sure the way the Schroth four point works, in order to prevent
• 21:49
  you from submarining, there's a doubled over section of belt on
• 21:53
  one shoulder that breaks free in an accident so that it lets your body
• 21:57
  roll forward to not go under the belt.
• 22:00
  So it simulates a three point.
• 22:01
  Yeah, simulates a three point tensioner with a four point belt.
• 22:04
  Oh, so it breaks, so it breaks away probably on the inside
• 22:07
  one so your body can go.
• 22:08
  Yeah.
• 22:09
  You know, not towards the window.
• 22:12
  Yeah, it doesn't break away fully.
• 22:13
  It has like a section that's folded over and stitched,
• 22:16
  but not stitched as strongly.
• 22:18
  So that it then becomes longer on just that side.
• 22:21
  So the stitching were full if you were to have a hard impact.
• 22:26
  Because I've seen people get those and use them with a stock seat.
• 22:30
  I've just never been a fan of that.
• 22:31
  And I know in the old days, even in Porsche Club, you could use a harness with
• 22:35
  a stock seat and have the sub, like a sub belt, just go right up in front of you.
• 22:38
  Which, of course, now has been pretty much banned by everybody.
• 22:42
  Seat has to have a proper pass through.
• 22:44
  But I think the consensus here is four points are a no go, don't even
• 22:49
  bother, you know, I mean for the cost differential, buy a five point or
• 22:54
  a six point, whatever you can get.
• 22:55
  One of the things that I wanted to call into question was CG locks.
• 23:00
  What do you think of those for the folks still running three point belts?
• 23:04
  Um, I tried one one time, we don't sell them at OG, I don't think OG ever
• 23:09
  did, you know, it was nice that it did tighten the, you could get the left,
• 23:14
  you know, the portion of, you know, as you came over your, to snap into
• 23:16
  the receptacle, you could snug it.
• 23:19
  So it was firm on your, across your hips.
• 23:21
  I didn't see it as a bad thing, but I just, I, like I said, I never, you
• 23:27
  know, never really used one in practice.
• 23:29
  I know the people that bought them like them.
• 23:31
  I don't think they create any safety hazards.
• 23:35
  But as you know, as I tend to tell people, you know, if you're
• 23:37
  looking at that kind of stuff, start considering doing the safety system,
• 23:41
  you know, as your next upgrade.
• 23:43
  But back to harnesses, yes, you know, now there are these 4.
• 23:47
  1s that they say they are legal to use with race, seat, and tested,
• 23:50
  you know, the FIA has tested them.
• 23:52
  I don't know about SFI, since they're a European manufacturer.
• 23:56
  And I don't think I've ever sold a four point belt to somebody and then there's
• 24:00
  five and six point now rate six point Basically, you have a sub belt that's
• 24:04
  doing the same thing as your sub belt the five point harness But it's got two
• 24:08
  attachment points, which you know has more places to make sure it doesn't come
• 24:12
  loose or come out You know the better it's always a debate between what's better
• 24:17
  five and six and different companies don't even make fives anymore I mean, I I buy
• 24:22
  g force and they go either way depending on how you want to say They make Yeah,
• 24:26
  the SFI belts, they make either way.
• 24:28
  The European belts that I've been seeing, you know, the last five,
• 24:32
  ten years, are all six point.
• 24:34
  Racetech at one point made a five point, but they haven't for a long time.
• 24:39
  So I think the FIA standard now is six, you know, for competition.
• 24:43
  And it's, and it's basically two attachment points.
• 24:46
  You know, for the sub instead of a single, but yes, some people want to save a
• 24:49
  buck or two, like you said earlier, you know, go on the eBay router on Amazon.
• 24:54
  And so there are some manufacturers that are more expensive than others.
• 24:57
  I've priced out different ones.
• 24:58
  I have a tendency to like G force belts because they're wider.
• 25:03
  So some people don't take that into consideration, the width of the belt
• 25:06
  across their shoulders and across their hips and things like that.
• 25:09
  They tend to be a little bit wider.
• 25:10
  Sparcos are a bit narrow and this is just a personal thing.
• 25:13
  I dislike Shroff because of the placement of the cam.
• 25:16
  I don't like it on the sub.
• 25:17
  I prefer it coming across my hip.
• 25:19
  So there's all these other considerations when you're looking at belts and the
• 25:22
  way your car is set up, maybe the way your cage is set up, you know,
• 25:25
  my cars are set up for time trials.
• 25:27
  So I've got a different.
• 25:28
  Type of cage in my car.
• 25:30
  So all these things are taken into consideration during the setup process
• 25:33
  So I think that's it's very subjective when it comes down to that But I think
• 25:37
  we can all agree that five and six point are the way to go Especially
• 25:41
  if you're going to use a fixed back seat So the bigger question that
• 25:44
  is unanswered is the why should you never run harnesses with a stock seat?
• 25:49
  Because the shoulder belt, you know race seats have a pass through for a reason
• 25:53
  So they come straight over your shoulders and down You You know to where they attach
• 25:58
  to the laps and the sub through the cam lock in the case of those And they still
• 26:03
  make latch link ones too with them around this going around the seat There's where
• 26:08
  there's a chance for it to slip off your shoulder, despite how tight you get them,
• 26:12
  because they are not coming straight, they have, you've now created a curve.
• 26:17
  They have to go around that, you know, the back of the seat, and
• 26:21
  then come back over your shoulders.
• 26:23
  It's not a good way to go.
• 26:24
  Most of the track groups, and I'm guessing you guys are probably the same,
• 26:28
  Have it in the technical regulations.
• 26:31
  You cannot use a racing harness unless you have a racing seat.
• 26:35
  Yes That's true, right?
• 26:37
  Yeah, everyone's gotten away from that The other thing I wanted to say why
• 26:40
  we're talking about belts on is for your listeners to be very careful of what you
• 26:45
  buy Online, I don't know if you guys have seen the now semi infamous video of the
• 26:51
  guy Somewhere in Eastern Europe who bought counterfeit OMP harnesses for 40 euros.
• 26:58
  And they said these were OMP FIA six point belts, the guys in car video.
• 27:03
  It's all over YouTube.
• 27:04
  And I think it's been on Facebook and he had an impact into a tire wall.
• 27:08
  Those belts failed in multiple places, including the tabs.
• 27:12
  That you would, uh, you know, the, the snapping ends that
• 27:15
  would go into an eyeball, right?
• 27:17
  Those broke.
• 27:18
  Yeah.
• 27:18
  These were counterfeit belts.
• 27:19
  The guy's chest hit the steering wheel.
• 27:22
  The steering wheel was deformed.
• 27:24
  I mean, he went forward to the inside, came back and is sitting there, slumped
• 27:28
  over moving and obviously a lot of pain.
• 27:31
  So if you see a, what should be a 350 pair of harnesses for 50 bucks
• 27:36
  and they say they're brand new.
• 27:37
  Okay, so you mentioned that the slots in the seats and the sport seats are
• 27:44
  designed to allow the belts to pass through straight over your shoulder.
• 27:48
  Now, because of my size, There are very few seats where those inserts or those
• 27:53
  holes are straight over my shoulder.
• 27:56
  Is that something that I need to be concerned of as a larger person?
• 28:00
  Or is it the belt coming into the seat a little bit lower,
• 28:03
  going up over my shoulder?
• 28:05
  Is that still okay?
• 28:07
  In the car you drive now, are your shoulders, you know, an inch
• 28:10
  above the top of the opening?
• 28:12
  Or are they somewhat, somewhat close?
• 28:15
  I would say probably about an inch, Over the from the top.
• 28:19
  What seat do you have in the car?
• 28:21
  Well, i've got a corvo sport.
• 28:22
  I don't have harnesses.
• 28:23
  I've got i'm still using a three point I've got a corvo recliner, but this is
• 28:27
  something that i plan on doing over the off season So I want to make sure that I
• 28:31
  get you know, the correct seats for for my body type, you know, not just fitment
• 28:36
  wise but with the the inlets for the for the harnesses as well Are you tall in
• 28:41
  the torso, legs, or a little of both?
• 28:43
  It's a little of both, but primarily in the legs.
• 28:48
  Being long legged and tall is actually, it makes it a little easier.
• 28:52
  Most of the manufacturers now make a wide and tall or tall for,
• 28:58
  you know, people your height.
• 28:59
  It's 6'4 so there are certain seats you're not going to fit in.
• 29:03
  But there are seats out there that, and this would, this would
• 29:06
  be another thing to sit in.
• 29:07
  You know, a couple examples, Sparco makes this new one called the Pilot.
• 29:11
  It's a halo seat.
• 29:12
  You know, if I sit in it, my head is probably three inches below or four
• 29:16
  inches below the top of the seat.
• 29:18
  You know, I'm only 5'11 You know, the shoulder belt opening the bottom of the
• 29:22
  shoulder belt cutouts is probably three inches above my shoulders But I sat in
• 29:27
  one just for giggles in this showroom race tech make in some of their seats
• 29:31
  They make a wide then they make a wide and tall for someone You know someone
• 29:35
  your size that you would fit in it and be like wow, this is comfortable You
• 29:39
  know like it's made for you Now you have to be really careful because some
• 29:42
  of those seats get so big that you'll only be able to track and escalate.
• 29:46
  So if you want to, if you want to jam that in a new Mustang,
• 29:49
  it ain't going to happen, right?
• 29:51
  With a low roof line or a Supra or anything like that.
• 29:54
  So you got to be really careful.
• 29:56
  Sparco used to make the seat.
• 29:57
  They just stopped it after 2019 was called the Ergo.
• 30:00
  And they made three sizes, small, medium, and large.
• 30:03
  The large was for tall.
• 30:05
  It was wide.
• 30:06
  In a car that still had door panels and all its interior and sound deadening.
• 30:12
  It wasn't going to fit You know, we had a guy try to put one in a 997 and it
• 30:16
  just wasn't going to go to the stock mounting locations If you've got a car
• 30:21
  where you're you're gutting it It's getting a roll cage in in those cases.
• 30:25
  You'd be surprised how big a seat you can put You know, I I saw one of those larger
• 30:29
  goes put in a cayman Now, they had cut the original mounting out, they'd made
• 30:33
  a plate, welded a plate to the floor, basically had the thing down on the floor
• 30:36
  because the guy was 6'5 but that was the only way they could get the seat in.
• 30:42
  You know, with our friends who have dual purpose cars, yes, when you
• 30:45
  get into those larger seats, OMP used to make one called the Big.
• 30:49
  I did see a guy get into the Mustang, he tried to put two, wasn't gonna happen.
• 30:53
  They would touch in the middle and you couldn't close the doors.
• 30:55
  Ha ha ha!
• 30:56
  I mean, this is the point where you just say, all right, the heck with it.
• 30:59
  I'm cutting the windshield and the roof.
• 31:01
  I'm going eat prepared and it doesn't matter at that point.
• 31:04
  You got all the room in the world, but that's a whole nother story.
• 31:08
  But so, so when I, when it comes time for me to start buying my stuff, just to
• 31:12
  give OG a little plug here, I am going to go down and see the experts at OG and
• 31:16
  sit in a bunch of seats and they're going to tell me the right stuff for my car.
• 31:20
  So.
• 31:20
  I don't need to worry about it because I know OG's got me covered.
• 31:23
  I mean, he drives a flying brick.
• 31:25
  I mean, the golf's got all the headroom in the world.
• 31:27
  So yeah, I was going to say, you could, you would, if you strip out
• 31:31
  a golf, there's a lot of real estate in there to put a big seat in.
• 31:35
  And of course with the big tall roofline, he's got nothing on mic though at the
• 31:39
  beetle talk about headroom He's swimming in that thing But at any rate so we we've
• 31:45
  talked a lot about seats But let's kind of wrap up this conversation about belts and
• 31:50
  seats together because there's something really important here from a coaching
• 31:53
  perspective because a lot of organizations will lean on us as instructors to say
• 31:58
  You should really do a kind of ocular pat down of these belts, you know.
• 32:03
  Check them out, do an inspection.
• 32:04
  And I'm like, what the heck does that mean?
• 32:06
  Am I sitting here checking dates?
• 32:08
  I understand that this stuff apparently expires, but I don't think it's
• 32:12
  like a carton of milk where all of a sudden it's, it's gone bad.
• 32:16
  So can you really explain to us what it means when a belt
• 32:19
  expires or a seat expires?
• 32:21
  When I'm supposed to kind of do this inspection of these belts or
• 32:24
  these seats, what am I looking for?
• 32:27
  What you mainly want to look for is condition.
• 32:29
  You know, I'll give you an example.
• 32:30
  I have a pair of, a pair of belts in the, they're in the garage.
• 32:34
  I used them once in a borrowed car.
• 32:37
  I didn't like the belts that were in it.
• 32:39
  I bought belts, installed them, attempted to run the club race.
• 32:43
  You know, we had some mechanical issues that led to my retirement.
• 32:46
  Took my belts out, put his belts back in because I just didn't.
• 32:49
  I didn't like it.
• 32:49
  I didn't like the adjusters.
• 32:51
  I just didn't like him.
• 32:52
  You know, it was a total preference thing.
• 32:54
  Now, would those belts be unsafe if you took them in a car?
• 32:56
  You know, they expired in December of 2019.
• 32:59
  Would they be unsafe if I took them out on the track?
• 33:02
  Of course not.
• 33:03
  They haven't been used.
• 33:05
  Where I've seen old belts, belts that were expired five plus years ago,
• 33:10
  the car spent a lot of time outside.
• 33:13
  The material does degrade.
• 33:14
  It gets stiff.
• 33:15
  The adjusters start to bind, little things like that.
• 33:18
  The clubs required, Alan, I think probably has a lot to do with liability.
• 33:22
  Uh, when the expiration date's on the belt, they're, they're junk.
• 33:25
  You have to replace them and that, the sanctioning bodies go
• 33:28
  with that, the expiration date.
• 33:30
  And I know that SFI now has an expiration date on them.
• 33:33
  The labels used to have the date of manufacturer, and you'd go two years
• 33:37
  out from the date of manufacturer, now they have an expiration date on them.
• 33:40
  They'll say not valid past, you know, February 2021.
• 33:44
  And I just threw that in, it was a random date.
• 33:47
  But seats too, a lot of it is condition.
• 33:50
  You know, if it's, if it's a.
• 33:52
  car that's stored in the garage.
• 33:55
  Car gets taken out once or twice a year.
• 33:57
  Doesn't HPD.
• 33:58
  It's never had an impact.
• 34:00
  You know, I told people if you've had a severe crash where they
• 34:03
  required the car to be towed in and you had to go to medical to
• 34:07
  be checked out, replace the seat.
• 34:10
  It has been deflected stress within the g loading that they're tested for.
• 34:14
  Just put another seat in the car.
• 34:16
  So the last part of this triumvirate or trifecta here
• 34:20
  is the head and neck restraint.
• 34:22
  So we've talked about the seats.
• 34:23
  We've talked about the belts and you threw out there and kind of hinted at,
• 34:27
  you know, Hans and Simpson hybrids.
• 34:29
  And we talked about halos.
• 34:31
  I mean, there's even, you know, collars and things like that.
• 34:34
  How does that play into this whole system?
• 34:36
  One, not a fan of neck collars.
• 34:38
  You know, the old foam ones, like they give you at the cart track.
• 34:42
  In a car, at the speeds that you're going, I don't like it.
• 34:46
  I feel like, oh, it makes your helmet not feel as heavy, but I feel like
• 34:49
  in the event you do have a, you know, let's say you have an impact with a
• 34:53
  tire wall, you're going to get this sort of whiplash effect because it's
• 34:56
  going to compress and it's going to push back as your head goes back.
• 35:00
  I don't know, some people may say that's a wives tale, but I've
• 35:03
  just never been a fan of those.
• 35:04
  Of course, now a lot of the clubs, if you're using a harness, they've made
• 35:07
  a head and neck restraint mandatory.
• 35:09
  PCA does, it's required.
• 35:11
  I imagine BMW has done it.
• 35:13
  Not sure about NASA, but at this point, really, most people are wearing them.
• 35:19
  You know, guys who have race seats and harnesses on the car, even if
• 35:21
  they're HPD people are wearing a head and neck restraint at this point.
• 35:25
  I don't see a reason not to.
• 35:26
  The knock was, Oh, I can't turn my head.
• 35:28
  Oh, I don't like it.
• 35:29
  Oh, it's uncomfortable.
• 35:30
  There are multiple devices out there.
• 35:32
  You can find one that works for you, whether it's a, you know,
• 35:36
  a next gen, a Hans or Simpson.
• 35:39
  Simpson hybrid, the Schroft Flex, Sparco sells one that's made
• 35:43
  by Stan 21, it's like a Hans.
• 35:46
  They fit a little differently.
• 35:47
  You know, find the one that's comfortable, what I tell people.
• 35:50
  You know, they've been, you know, the Hans and the Stan 21, you know,
• 35:53
  the Schroft Flex, you know, the ones that are European or have FIA
• 35:57
  certification in addition to SFI.
• 36:00
  Sometimes you can get one that's either SFI, FIA, or both.
• 36:04
  I think it's the same device and, you know, they put both labels on it.
• 36:08
  Because I know a lot of people running in the oval track
• 36:09
  world, they require SFI stuff.
• 36:12
  And what's funny about the Hans is there's an expiration there too, but
• 36:15
  it's a giant piece of carbon fiber.
• 36:17
  Isn't that the padding and the tethers that need to be updated,
• 36:20
  but not the physical unit itself?
• 36:23
  Hans wants to see your device, I think, about every four years.
• 36:27
  Go examine it.
• 36:28
  You should replace your tethers.
• 36:30
  Clubs now will check dates on tethers.
• 36:33
  I think BMW CCA.
• 36:34
  I think they think it's like it's it's within two years.
• 36:38
  They'll make you replace them.
• 36:39
  It's I mean, they're cheap.
• 36:40
  They're 40.
• 36:41
  Despite you can buy a new tether, send you Hans wants you to send the device back.
• 36:46
  They will put a new SFI sticker on it with more current dates.
• 36:51
  And I know some clubs will enforce that some do not.
• 36:55
  If you're in an impact, I would have the device checked.
• 36:58
  If you're in a serious wreck, send it back to them, pay them, you know,
• 37:02
  they'll put new tethers on it, they'll, you know, they'll check to see if
• 37:04
  there are any cracks or anything that could render it unsafe and have
• 37:08
  it fail should it be tested again.
• 37:11
  You know, with another impact.
• 37:13
  Yeah.
• 37:13
  And I mean, I spent the extra money for the adjustable Hans, which I have adjusted
• 37:17
  once and never messed with ever again.
• 37:20
  So, you know, to your point about fitment, right.
• 37:23
  It, and I had to get the adjustable Hans because of the particularities
• 37:27
  of my car and stuff like that.
• 37:29
  And there was an issue with the regular one with clearance, with the seat and
• 37:32
  all that, again, reiterating the fact that all of this stuff works together.
• 37:36
  You can't just go pick it off the shelf.
• 37:38
  It all has to be fitted.
• 37:39
  It has to be fitted with you in the car.
• 37:42
  So we're talking about all this as a system and we've talked about them a
• 37:45
  couple of times, but is there really such a thing as a safe dual use car?
• 37:51
  If you're using belts with other hands, you're not safe, but if you're using
• 37:55
  three point, if you have fixed seats in the car, you need to use belts.
• 37:59
  To get proper safety.
• 38:01
  So therefore you'd have to use a Hans while driving on the street,
• 38:03
  which means wearing a helmet, which screws with your visibility.
• 38:07
  And technically it's illegal in a lot of States to run harnesses on the street.
• 38:11
  So you still have to have a three point belt if you have tags on the car.
• 38:14
  So it becomes a whole kind of cluster there at the day.
• 38:18
  I do know guys that will change out their seat.
• 38:21
  You know, their car has the wool bar in it.
• 38:22
  That wool bar is in the car.
• 38:25
  And they, a couple days before they leave for the track, they'll go out in the
• 38:28
  garage and take the stock seat out, put their race seat in, you know, all their
• 38:32
  mounting for their harnesses is there.
• 38:35
  install that, they will drive it out to the track.
• 38:38
  Some guys still trailer, even if it's a dual use car, they'll still trailer to
• 38:42
  a track event, you know, in the event something breaks so they can get home.
• 38:46
  If they want, they want to take the car out on the street,
• 38:48
  they'll swap the seats out.
• 38:49
  Some states will say you can't use your harnesses on the street.
• 38:53
  I still think you could have a safe dual use car.
• 38:56
  I think you can.
• 38:57
  I mean, Mike, I think I would want to redefine what dual use means because to
• 39:01
  me, I would see it as In the case of this particular conversation, we could have
• 39:06
  a dual use car that can do autocross and track, and it would be safe for both,
• 39:10
  but not street and track and not street and autocross or hill climb or whatever.
• 39:16
  And I will say, if you look at the different regs, especially if you
• 39:19
  go to SCCA or NASA or some of the organizations and read through like
• 39:23
  the GCR, I mean, it's, it's, it's an endless Bible of information there.
• 39:27
  There's a lot about how cages are built, how the restraint systems
• 39:30
  are supposed to be put together.
• 39:31
  And then they will have caveats.
• 39:33
  Based on the discipline.
• 39:34
  So if you're in rally cross, there's extra things you have to do.
• 39:37
  If you're in club racing, there's things you have other things you have to do.
• 39:40
  I would say the great compromise though, if you're looking to build a Swiss army
• 39:45
  knife from a safety perspective, and Mark, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
• 39:48
  If you follow hill climb slash time trial spec.
• 39:52
  It's kind of the best of all worlds, but you're not looking at a full cage,
• 39:56
  looking at a half back, you know, you're looking at full harnesses with fixed
• 40:00
  seats, partial fire system, you know?
• 40:03
  So the car is still usable in other instances like autocross and
• 40:07
  at DE and things like that, but it's not legal at club racing, but
• 40:11
  it's also not legal on the street.
• 40:13
  So it kind of sits in the middle.
• 40:14
  Well, then you look at some of the new cars that have those
• 40:17
  optional sports seats, you know, Porsche with the Corvette.
• 40:21
  The, I think the GT three 50 have those for cars in them, where they
• 40:25
  have provisions for you to use a racing harness on the track, the Porsche one.
• 40:29
  At least, you know, on the driver's side, there's a cutout for a sub belt.
• 40:33
  There's a sub bar to attach it to underneath.
• 40:35
  It's part of the mounting system for it.
• 40:36
  But now you're back in that hole.
• 40:38
  You're using an adjustable back seat again, still.
• 40:41
  So if you're saying, you know, ultimate safety is a fixed back seat.
• 40:44
  There's no way to have a safe street and track car with a fixed back seat.
• 40:51
  Unless you're swapping out seats like you described, you're, you know,
• 40:54
  people you know are doing well in the ca In the case of those, I know with
• 40:57
  the Porsches, I'm not sure about, I know BMW has that M 4G TS car.
• 41:01
  It's like a, a joke and say it's a BM BMW cup car or club sport like
• 41:05
  that came at the sport buckets.
• 41:07
  As Porsche calls them, they don't recline.
• 41:10
  You could tilt it slightly forward to put things in the back seat,
• 41:13
  but the seat will not recline.
• 41:15
  It's in a fixed position when it's upright.
• 41:18
  Interesting.
• 41:18
  It'll tilt forward just a couple inches.
• 41:21
  If you were to want to put a double bag, your gym bag into the back on,
• 41:25
  you know, where the rear seat would be like in a GT three to go to the gym.
• 41:29
  But yeah, the, the seats do not recline.
• 41:31
  They only have a forward where it moves forward a little bit to put packages
• 41:36
  in the, in the back where the rear seats would be the Porsche world.
• 41:41
  Those are popular guys, people buying those secondhand.
• 41:44
  So let's jump back to close out the whole idea of head and neck
• 41:47
  restraint there for a second.
• 41:48
  And you mentioned that there's multiple vendors in that particular space, but you
• 41:53
  know, most of us know two of them and you mentioned them at Hans and it's Simpson.
• 41:57
  So let's, let's throw it out there.
• 41:59
  Hans versus Simpson.
• 42:01
  What do you think is Hans passe now everybody's moving to the Simpson
• 42:05
  or is the Simpson, is it everything that it's cracked up to be?
• 42:08
  What do you think as a professional?
• 42:10
  I still wear Hans.
• 42:12
  I have for 15 years.
• 42:14
  I'm used to it.
• 42:15
  It's comfortable in the right seat.
• 42:17
  I was into the tire wall and turned 10.
• 42:19
  It wasn't a major hit.
• 42:20
  It had been a race weekend.
• 42:21
  The guy would have kept driving, but still had it, you know, we did have an impact.
• 42:24
  It worked.
• 42:26
  And there was a lot of science.
• 42:28
  I mean, years and years of development.
• 42:30
  It was the first one.
• 42:31
  A lot of the other ones came on the scene.
• 42:33
  That was really the impetus was Dale Earnhardt's crash.
• 42:37
  Then he saw that Hutchins, that crazy strap or contraption that some of the
• 42:41
  NASCAR guys were wearing that would basically crush your nuts and a wreck.
• 42:45
  But it was, cause it went up between your legs and it was like, you're
• 42:47
  wearing this like web gear thing.
• 42:50
  Never sold them, never saw anybody.
• 42:52
  You know, in our world of road courses wearing them, the Simpson hybrid s
• 42:57
  Simpson did for somebody paid to have that sled tested like a Hans device and they
• 43:03
  tested it with a three point seatbelt.
• 43:05
  It is the only device that was actually tested and S.
• 43:09
  F.
• 43:09
  I.
• 43:10
  Certified.
• 43:11
  For use with a three point seatbelt.
• 43:13
  If all you're doing is instructing, or even if you're driving on the track and
• 43:17
  you have no interest in putting a a roll bar, a race seat, going to harnesses,
• 43:22
  and there are a few instructors I've seen that do it that haven't, you can use
• 43:26
  that device with a three point seatbelt.
• 43:28
  I actually did a test ride with one.
• 43:31
  I had to jump in the right seat the last minute to go with the
• 43:34
  student, and his instructor had him shown, and the chief instructor
• 43:38
  said, here, you want to wear this?
• 43:39
  I'm like, sure.
• 43:40
  Might as well test drive it.
• 43:41
  Hans is owned by Simpson.
• 43:43
  Simpson also bought safety solutions, what got them that whole design for the hybrid.
• 43:47
  It was an evolution of the old, original safety solutions R3.
• 43:50
  Came out, I think, 607, somewhere there.
• 43:53
  It's been a long time.
• 43:54
  The, uh, the Simpson Hybrid S, not the Sport.
• 43:57
  They have another one called the Sport.
• 43:58
  It's cheaper.
• 43:59
  It's about half the price.
• 44:00
  It has not been tested.
• 44:02
  For, uh, three point seat belts.
• 44:04
  It really, it comes down to fit.
• 44:05
  I, uh, and it, maybe it's be just because I'm used to it that I, I
• 44:10
  feel naked without my hands when I get in the, when I get in the car.
• 44:14
  Like if I have to get in with a green, green student with three
• 44:16
  point seat belts and I can't wear 'em, and it, it feels funny.
• 44:20
  But I also know that, you know, I have things there to protect me in that car
• 44:24
  because it's got curtain airbags, it's got airbag in the seat, you know, these newer
• 44:28
  cars have airbag, you know, they come out of everywhere to keep my, my head's not
• 44:31
  going to snap forward, or I could have a, you know, the basal skull fracture.
• 44:36
  A lot of the other designs of, you know, the Stan 21, you know, Hans did allow some
• 44:40
  of the other manufacturers to make them under license when they were in Europe.
• 44:44
  OMP made a Hans device, said OMP on it, but it also said Hans on it.
• 44:49
  But they were allowed to produce it to Hans standards for a
• 44:53
  licensing thing, because I don't think Hans could sell in Europe.
• 44:57
  So there were a couple manufacturers who made them under license.
• 45:01
  It really comes down to what you're doing.
• 45:03
  If you're primarily instructing and you're getting, you spend a lot of
• 45:06
  time getting in beginner's cars, the Hybrid S makes sense, because you know
• 45:11
  that you can use it with a three point belt, or if your car is equipped with
• 45:15
  harnesses, it works with that too.
• 45:17
  Me personally, I still wear my Hans.
• 45:19
  There was a ton of science behind it.
• 45:21
  The one time I tested it, it worked.
• 45:23
  I didn't have any neck soreness or anything the next day.
• 45:25
  I was going to ask about the Simpson Hybrid S being as effective with
• 45:30
  these, you know, the harnesses as it is with the three point, because as
• 45:34
  an instructor, I actually over the winter just bought a Simpson Hybrid
• 45:38
  S because I am going to be in and out of students cars with three points.
• 45:42
  Some students do have harnesses because they've got full on
• 45:44
  race cars and things like that.
• 45:47
  I wanted the Simpson Hybrid S because of the flexibility,
• 45:50
  but it is just as effective.
• 45:52
  With harnesses as it is, is it careful with the wording?
• 45:55
  Cause I don't think that the wording that they use, they
• 45:57
  didn't say just as effective.
• 45:59
  They said it will reduce the chance of an injury.
• 46:02
  And I guess this is the legal use that you gotta be careful.
• 46:05
  You know, the, from the lawyer speak, be careful of how they word
• 46:08
  it because they've said that, you know, what they'd said is they.
• 46:12
  When it was tested, it worked.
• 46:15
  We'll be just at, like, 100 percent as effective with harnesses, I'm not sure.
• 46:20
  Because it's funny, and you ask them, I think you'll get a sort of a,
• 46:23
  well, it passed the test, it passed the test, and it was certified.
• 46:27
  Answer.
• 46:28
  I was gonna say, that's like 27 percent of all statistics are made up.
• 46:31
  But, uh, continue your thought.
• 46:35
  No, but Brad's right.
• 46:35
  Will it protect him if he's in the right seat of that beginner's car?
• 46:40
  Yes.
• 46:41
  Now, the thing I have with the Simpson is it looks wholly uncomfortable.
• 46:45
  Like, it reminds me a lot of the old spine protection that the kart
• 46:49
  racers had and stuff like that.
• 46:50
  So for me, I'm okay with the Hans being that yoke around my neck, but on the same
• 46:55
  token, I've seen it and it, there's a sizing issue with the, with the Simpson.
• 46:59
  To me, it always seems too small on everybody I've seen wear it.
• 47:03
  It's like, You know, it looks like a g string.
• 47:06
  I mean the hans kind of is like a one size fits all as long as
• 47:09
  you can Get it around your neck.
• 47:10
  It looks appropriate.
• 47:11
  It looks like it should fit at most everybody How do you
• 47:15
  size a simpson hybrid to me?
• 47:17
  Just again.
• 47:17
  It doesn't look right.
• 47:18
  If you're me you just buy the largest one The measurement for the you
• 47:24
  know, the strap that comes around It's almost like if you were buying
• 47:26
  a dinner jacket the medium is like 40 to 42, which I think, you know, I
• 47:32
  wear a 42 and the jacket and my suit.
• 47:34
  I just remember, not that I've worn one in a long time.
• 47:37
  And then they have the large for, it's, it's outfits around the torso area.
• 47:41
  And of course that little part that comes down part way down,
• 47:43
  you know, past your shoulders.
• 47:45
  It's really the strap that seems to be bigger.
• 47:48
  I think the one I borrowed was a medium.
• 47:50
  You know, but I'm like average Joe size.
• 47:52
  So what you're saying, Mark, is I got to go to my local Joseph A.
• 47:55
  Banks to get fitted for my Simpson hybrid.
• 47:58
  Yeah.
• 47:58
  You wouldn't want to know your jacket, like a size of like on a blazer.
• 48:01
  Yes.
• 48:02
  Yeah.
• 48:03
  It would, it would, would be helpful.
• 48:04
  That's fair.
• 48:04
  I mean, I I'm like you, I've had a Hans for a long time.
• 48:07
  I'm probably due for some tethers.
• 48:09
  So I'll come visit you soon.
• 48:11
  It's really a, how, how does it feel?
• 48:13
  Is it comfortable?
• 48:14
  Cause you don't want the distraction of it.
• 48:16
  Like you're sitting there and that portion of your brain is
• 48:19
  saying I don't like this thing.
• 48:20
  It's uncomfortable.
• 48:21
  It hurts You know my I don't like how my head feels.
• 48:24
  I don't like how it sits on my shoulders It really comes down to fit.
• 48:27
  I remember when the Precursor to the next gen when it was called the defender when
• 48:31
  that came out it had that You know piece that went over the belt sort of went in
• 48:35
  the piece that sat over your shoulders And they had that piece over it and I
• 48:40
  talked to a guy who bought one and he said, you know, it's neat I like it.
• 48:44
  I like how I I know the belts aren't going to slip off but I have a short neck.
• 48:49
  It's pushing the chin bar of my helmet up when I'm in the car.
• 48:53
  When he said he had a Spec Racer Ford, and when he'd sit in it, the seating
• 48:57
  position of the thing, because he had a short neck, it was pushing on the chin
• 49:01
  bar of his Bell Dominator or whatever he wore at the time that had the little, you
• 49:05
  know, lip spoiler on the, on the chin.
• 49:07
  And that, you know, that was an interesting observation and I, you know,
• 49:10
  when people would ask about them later, I'd ask them, do you have a, do you have
• 49:13
  a really short neck, you know, a lot of muscles on your shoulders and make it
• 49:16
  look like you have a short neck because you may not want to try this device.
• 49:20
  You may want to get, you know, go with the Hans because of that extra
• 49:23
  piece that went over the belt.
• 49:25
  So it really comes down to fitment there, you know, all the devices out
• 49:28
  there these days have all been tested.
• 49:30
  You know, with the crash test dummies and shown to work.
• 49:33
  And then of course, you know, Brad's case, he liked the hybrid S because
• 49:38
  he does a lot of instructing.
• 49:40
  And a lot of times it's in a car that doesn't have harnesses.
• 49:43
  So it makes sense for him.
• 49:44
  And he's, I guess, is it comfortable for you?
• 49:47
  Yeah, it's comfortable.
• 49:48
  I haven't had a chance to actually use it on track yet.
• 49:51
  This weekend, it's going to be my first time, but I've put it
• 49:54
  on and worn it around the house.
• 49:56
  Just for fun.
• 49:57
  And it was quite comfortable.
• 49:58
  I didn't know you, I didn't know you mowed the lawn with your helmet on Brad.
• 50:02
  That's pretty cool.
• 50:03
  Safety as a system, Eric.
• 50:05
  No, he was doing private modeling.
• 50:07
  He was only wearing that.
• 50:08
  Just, just the, just the Simpson in my helmet with a beer in my
• 50:13
  hand and the steering wheel of the lawnmower and the other.
• 50:16
  I mean, it does look like a combination jockstrap cod piece sometimes at
• 50:21
  the right angle, but that, that aside, So let's switch to Mike for a
• 50:25
  second from the coach's perspective.
• 50:27
  And there's this concept in the classroom and at tech and even pre registration that
• 50:32
  is this, this idea of equal restraint.
• 50:36
  So let's talk about it from your perspective, Mike, and
• 50:39
  what that means by definition.
• 50:40
  And then let's go to Mark to kind of back that up as to what equal restraint
• 50:45
  really means at the end of the day.
• 50:46
  So Mike, go ahead.
• 50:47
  So some of it will come down to instructor preference because.
• 50:51
  Some instructors are more tolerant of risk than others, but basically
• 50:55
  it means anything that the driver has available to protect themselves in
• 51:00
  terms of the seat, the restraints, and any other devices needs to be
• 51:06
  equivalent on the passenger side.
• 51:07
  So if the driver is using a five point harness and a fixed back seat, you
• 51:12
  can't have a stock seat and a three point belt in the passenger seat.
• 51:15
  I've seen cases where both sides had a Fixed backseat or even a reclining
• 51:23
  sport seat where the driver had like a schroth four point or maybe even a
• 51:29
  five point, but there wasn't equivalent on the passenger side and oftentimes
• 51:34
  I've seen, especially in the case where it's like sport reclining seats
• 51:37
  and where the instructor just made the student uses three point belt instead.
• 51:41
  Because when that student is using that three point belt rather
• 51:45
  than the harnesses, they actually become a little self conscious
• 51:47
  themselves and dial it back a bit.
• 51:50
  So that's the best compromise I've seen in a case where there was the ability
• 51:53
  to have equal restraint, but the maximum level was not available on both sides.
• 51:58
  So as we turn this over to Mark, Mark, does that mean when I come into OG
• 52:02
  and I'm shopping for seats, I've got to buy two Oh, and PWRCs, or does
• 52:08
  that really mean I just have to have what's known as like and kind seats are
• 52:13
  both black and they can both support five point harnesses or six point.
• 52:17
  And I have to have six point harnesses on both sides, or
• 52:19
  what's your recommendation there?
• 52:21
  If you're going to do it, troughs all around or whatever, everything matching.
• 52:25
  So what is, is it a loose interpretation of equal restraint?
• 52:28
  What does it mean to you as a distributor?
• 52:30
  What it means to me is.
• 52:32
  If the driver has a race seat, there needs to be one for the passenger.
• 52:36
  If the driver is using a harness, there needs to be one for the passenger.
• 52:40
  I see it all the I see it plenty of times and it's acceptable.
• 52:43
  I've gotten in cars this way.
• 52:45
  Where the driver may have an O.
• 52:47
  M.
• 52:47
  P.
• 52:47
  H.
• 52:47
  T.
• 52:48
  E.
• 52:48
  Halo seat.
• 52:50
  But on the passenger side, he's got a W.
• 52:51
  R.
• 52:52
  C.
• 52:52
  On his side, he'll have an O.
• 52:54
  M.
• 52:55
  P.
• 52:55
  Harness on the passenger side.
• 52:57
  Since it doesn't get used much, he's got a G force harness.
• 53:00
  Am I okay with that?
• 53:01
  Yes.
• 53:02
  Does it meet the rules?
• 53:03
  Yes.
• 53:04
  Because I'm in a fixed back racing seat with a harness that I can use my head and
• 53:10
  neck restraint as the driver is doing.
• 53:13
  Yeah, they don't have to be like a perfect match.
• 53:15
  Like, if you were to go to the track, I wouldn't do it.
• 53:18
  I've never seen anybody else do it.
• 53:19
  Oh, you have a Sparco Pro ADV.
• 53:23
  On your side, and only an Evo on the other side, no, I'm not getting in the car.
• 53:28
  Like, you don't have to have two halos.
• 53:30
  Having a halo over the passenger seat does restrict vision, but that second
• 53:33
  one over there really bottles up when you're, you know, if you're trying to
• 53:37
  throw that quick glance, you know, to the right, just to double check your mirror.
• 53:40
  You know, the way I've always interpreted it, and I think
• 53:43
  I've seen it with the clubs.
• 53:44
  I've seen cars go in the grid.
• 53:46
  That way, people with the passenger side, they're going to
• 53:49
  maybe seldom going to be used.
• 53:51
  You know, if it's an instructor that I'll throw a passenger seat
• 53:54
  in this weekend because I may want to take my student for a ride.
• 53:57
  Yeah, the seats don't have to be the exact same seat and the exact same belts.
• 54:01
  As long as you're providing the same type of restraint that you have as a driver
• 54:06
  to the passenger, that's acceptable.
• 54:08
  So use Tanya as an example again.
• 54:10
  She's tiny.
• 54:11
  She can have a tiny little seat.
• 54:13
  But she's not going to find an instructor who fits in that tiny
• 54:15
  little seat most of the time.
• 54:16
  So, or, or even a student, you know, if she's instructing.
• 54:20
  So having a more general purpose friendly equivalent size, equivalent seat, like
• 54:28
  a more accommodating fixed back seat in the passenger seat that will fit a
• 54:31
  wider range of people is actually a very good idea because you're more likely
• 54:36
  to be able to have someone safely.
• 54:39
  seat than sitting awkwardly on top of it or, uh, uncomfortably contorted in it.
• 54:45
  That's acceptable.
• 54:46
  I've seen it.
• 54:46
  I see that all the time.
• 54:48
  You know, you've got a driver who's a smaller guy.
• 54:49
  He's got his, you know, skinny European guy, Sparco circuit seat better be
• 54:54
  wearing your skinny jeans and a 30 inch waist to fit in it because it's
• 54:57
  tight, but for the passenger side to accommodate his range of instructors.
• 55:02
  Maybe he's got you've got an evo2 because it fits.
• 55:05
  I've seen people do that all the time Don't they want the brand to be the same?
• 55:08
  But it's not the same model and that I mean that's a prep You know have some
• 55:12
  people I don't want to have a omp driver's seat in a sparco passenger seat or vice
• 55:16
  versa They like to at least match the brand, but yeah, you can, you want to
• 55:21
  put a seat in that'll accommodate a wider range of passengers because your
• 55:24
  instructors are all different too.
• 55:26
  Well, maybe it's the stance bro in me.
• 55:28
  I'm vain.
• 55:28
  I want my seats to look the same.
• 55:30
  So I got matching seats for my car, matching belts.
• 55:33
  But to your point, Mike, about, about Tanya's car, not to call
• 55:36
  her out on the episode, but you know, she's on here enough.
• 55:39
  People have gotten used to hearing her, but yeah, she's got
• 55:42
  matching courses in that beetle.
• 55:44
  And I tell you Interesting story.
• 55:46
  We bought them at OG and the one she has on her driver's side was a floor model.
• 55:50
  So it had been sat in a bunch and somewhat, I would say stretched
• 55:55
  because the one that came out of the warehouse is really tight
• 55:58
  and it's really uncomfortable.
• 56:01
  I don't know what it is, you know, yeah.
• 56:03
  The padding, the padding compresses.
• 56:06
  You know, even the parts you can't take out, you can pull the bottom cushion
• 56:09
  and the, and the five bolster cushion.
• 56:11
  And even the, on the, the old days before they made it a one piece, you could pull
• 56:15
  that little pad that's behind your back.
• 56:17
  They call that stuff out.
• 56:18
  Interesting that one, the, the one she ended up putting on the
• 56:20
  driver's side was the display.
• 56:23
  And after being sat in by however many people over the course of a year or two.
• 56:27
  Padding got a little compressed.
• 56:28
  It is so much more comfortable.
• 56:30
  I've sat in the passenger one and it's like my whole bottom
• 56:32
  half goes numb after a while.
• 56:34
  I mean, it's a really tight seat.
• 56:35
  Yeah, the Corsa, Corsa is a tight seat.
• 56:38
  I've sat in those.
• 56:39
  But she's, you know, she's of, of, uh, a smaller stature.
• 56:42
  So for her, it's perfect.
• 56:43
  But for the rest of us, normal humans, it ain't going to fit.
• 56:47
  But with that being said, when talking about being stylish, let's talk
• 56:51
  about racing gear, because that's the next thing everybody wants.
• 56:55
  To look like a race car driver, right?
• 56:57
  So I got to get my helmet, my shoes, I got to get my driving
• 57:00
  suit and all that kind of stuff.
• 57:01
  So let's talk about, you know, helmet sizing and fitment and racing
• 57:04
  suits and cool suits alternatives.
• 57:06
  I want to piggyback on the helmet discussion.
• 57:09
  Cause Mark, you and I had a discussion a couple of weeks ago
• 57:11
  about this, but I'm looking at everything through the big guy lens.
• 57:15
  And so everything I ask is geared towards me.
• 57:18
  And Mike and the other people in the group, but the discussion of
• 57:21
  helmets and are there helmets that are lower profile than others?
• 57:25
  To answer your question, there are manufacturers who
• 57:28
  make a more compact shell.
• 57:30
  You know, like I've, I've found that, you know, out there in the market of
• 57:33
  the, of the ones that we carry and the ones that I put my hands on and put
• 57:36
  my, put my, you know, put on my head.
• 57:39
  The Arise and the Steelos have a more compact shell than say a belt.
• 57:43
  You know, the bells tend to be a little bit bigger.
• 57:45
  And in your case, being a six foot four big guy, you probably have a lot of
• 57:50
  issues getting fitted where you don't want your helmet button up against your
• 57:53
  roll cage and you can find some room in some of the, you know, the, of the
• 57:57
  manufacturers that do make a more compact.
• 58:00
  It still meets both the S.
• 58:02
  A.
• 58:02
  and the F.
• 58:02
  I.
• 58:02
  A.
• 58:03
  standards, you know, for, you know, the helmets that are, that are also get the F.
• 58:06
  I.
• 58:06
  A.
• 58:06
  certification, but in a tighter package.
• 58:09
  And that must be with some of the stuff they use on the inside for the padding
• 58:12
  that allows them to have the same amount of protection in a smaller shell.
• 58:17
  You know, I always tell people when we start with helmets, You know, because
• 58:20
  all our heads are shaped differently, you know, whether it's, you know, around the
• 58:23
  crown of our head, or some people have like fuller cheeks than other people, you
• 58:28
  know, some people have a like sort of a long skinny head, some people have a round
• 58:31
  head, and of course, a helmet manufacturer can't make three different shapes of
• 58:36
  each model of helmet, it's just not cost effective, so they try to get one that's
• 58:40
  sort of in the ballpark that'll, that'll try to fit a wide range of drivers,
• 58:45
  and then, but then will offer different thickness cheek pads, you know, on Stilo,
• 58:50
  you can remove the crown pad on top of your head and go thicker or thinner to get
• 58:54
  the helmet to sit properly on your head.
• 58:56
  Some manufacturers don't let you take the cheek pads out.
• 58:58
  I think they all should at this point, but not all of them do.
• 59:02
  You know, they're glued in and the one piece piece from the
• 59:04
  whole bottom half of the helmet.
• 59:05
  But that being said about our heads are different.
• 59:08
  When you go to try helmets on, Try for fit.
• 59:10
  So it's just like a pair of shoes.
• 59:12
  You're not going to buy a pair of shoes that are uncomfortable.
• 59:15
  You don't want a helmet that's uncomfortable.
• 59:17
  It's not only as a protecting your noggin, but you don't want the
• 59:19
  distraction of, man, my head's, you know, my helmet just doesn't fit right.
• 59:24
  And one common mistake, a lot of first time buyers make with a helmet, they buy a
• 59:28
  helmet that's too big and they slip it on.
• 59:31
  So you'll think, Oh, this feels pretty good.
• 59:34
  And then after you, you wear it and break it in and the padding compresses
• 59:37
  a little bit and you find out later.
• 59:39
  You know, I've seen people in a panic.
• 59:40
  I look at them like, your helmet's too big.
• 59:42
  Maybe they just went on a website, you know, googled, you know, whichever
• 59:46
  model helmet it was and hit the first link that popped up, purchased
• 59:49
  it online, didn't talk to anybody.
• 59:51
  You know, there, there are, you know, measurement you can take
• 59:54
  to get you in the ballpark.
• 59:56
  If you have the opportunity to, if you're at a track that has a track side store,
• 59:59
  like Summit Point has the Mach 5 Pro Shop.
• 1:00:02
  They have helmets in there.
• 1:00:03
  You can go try on a couple different brands.
• 1:00:05
  If you go to NJMP, the general store, she's got different
• 1:00:09
  brands of helmets in there.
• 1:00:10
  Try one, try one on if you can.
• 1:00:12
  Because there's nothing worse than having an ill fitting helmet.
• 1:00:15
  A lot of beginners will come out there with a motorcycle helmet that
• 1:00:19
  they borrowed from their buddy.
• 1:00:21
  And can you explain why that's a bad idea?
• 1:00:26
  Well, it's funny.
• 1:00:27
  I've seen, including PCA, will let you use a M rated helmet through Blue Group,
• 1:00:34
  which would be like, you know, the equivalent to HPDE 2 and NASA, or, and
• 1:00:38
  I'm sure like your intermediate group, I guess, with, with Hooked on Driving.
• 1:00:42
  It's not the beginner, but they, it's still, you're in an instructed group,
• 1:00:46
  but the drivers in there have experience.
• 1:00:47
  You know, once you get to solo groups, they require an SA or FIA rated helmet.
• 1:00:52
  I could see the beginner coming out for the first time.
• 1:00:55
  You know, he wants to check it out and see if the hobbies for him, you
• 1:00:59
  know, if the guy's been coming out to the track for two years and he's still
• 1:01:02
  wearing a motorcycle helmet, he needs to get a helmet because they're, I
• 1:01:06
  think they're crash tested differently.
• 1:01:09
  And of course, motorcycle helmets won't have a fire resistant lining to them.
• 1:01:13
  Like, you know, like a helmet made for motor sports comes
• 1:01:16
  down to having the proper gear.
• 1:01:18
  The beginners, I get it.
• 1:01:20
  You know, if you've been doing it, if you go through a first season of it,
• 1:01:24
  obviously you're committed at that point, it's time for the proper helmet.
• 1:01:28
  So I think you make a really valid point there.
• 1:01:30
  And I'm sure the listeners are probably scratching their heads going.
• 1:01:32
  When you talk about crash resistance, technically a motorcycle helmet would
• 1:01:36
  have better crash resistance than a car helmet would just because of the
• 1:01:40
  fact that you're in the open air.
• 1:01:41
  But I think what the major difference here is, is the fire retardant part
• 1:01:46
  of the helmet is much more involved.
• 1:01:49
  In a car because you're in an enclosed space, unless you're running
• 1:01:52
  that he prepared Miata, like we were talking about earlier, but
• 1:01:56
  so that's the real big thing here.
• 1:01:57
  And that's the reason why, you know, when we talk about a lot of this
• 1:02:00
  stuff, again, it works as a system.
• 1:02:02
  There's a lot of Nomex gear that we wear in motorsport that you don't
• 1:02:06
  wear on a motorcycle motorcycle.
• 1:02:07
  You wear leathers.
• 1:02:08
  I mean, granted there's.
• 1:02:08
  Probably some fire retardant stuff on motorcycles too, but it's very different.
• 1:02:12
  The, the, the race suits are different.
• 1:02:13
  Everything is different between those two disciplines.
• 1:02:17
  So in this case, car helmets for cars, motorcycle helmets for, for
• 1:02:20
  motorcycles, that is the rule of thumb, but I'm glad to see that some clubs
• 1:02:25
  to get people ingratiated into the sport are allowing them to at least
• 1:02:30
  not sacrifice their investment and say, Hey, for your first couple of
• 1:02:33
  events, come on out with your M helmet.
• 1:02:35
  And you're good to go.
• 1:02:37
  I've also seen that we're carting, we're carting for whatever reason requires
• 1:02:42
  SA helmets and not M helmets as well.
• 1:02:45
  Again, look at the different disciplines to see what the regulations allow.
• 1:02:49
  And go ahead, Mike.
• 1:02:50
  The cart, you're strapped into the cart that has gasoline behind you.
• 1:02:55
  Usually motorcycle, you just fall off.
• 1:02:57
  Yeah, skip it, skip it, skip it, skip across the ground like skipping a stone.
• 1:03:03
  Let's go back to fitment for a minute.
• 1:03:05
  Cause we, I don't think we closed that, that thought and to your point about
• 1:03:08
  bigger helmets and things like that.
• 1:03:10
  And this is why it's important to get fitted.
• 1:03:12
  There are companies that run small in terms of their cut.
• 1:03:16
  So it's like, you know, It's funny.
• 1:03:18
  A lot of this is like buying shoes.
• 1:03:20
  Once you know how you fit a certain manufacturer, you know what to buy.
• 1:03:24
  And you're always that, you know, let's say size 11 Adidas, even though you're
• 1:03:28
  actually a nine and a half, because a nine and a half is super uncomfortable
• 1:03:32
  just because they cut them small.
• 1:03:34
  So the same is true.
• 1:03:35
  I found of like Sparco and some of the other helmets, I prefer the bells.
• 1:03:40
  I want to try on a Rue.
• 1:03:42
  But I don't want to look like an astronaut with all those hookups either.
• 1:03:44
  And we'll talk about that in a minute, but I have found my actual fitment size.
• 1:03:51
  is an L and I have a large bell and it's, it becomes incredibly uncomfortable
• 1:03:57
  even after I've broken it in.
• 1:03:59
  So what I've done is I upgraded and I wear an XL and it's ridiculous, but at
• 1:04:04
  the end of the day, after a long day, I, I feel less claustrophobic and I don't
• 1:04:10
  have all that, that pushing and, and basically the headache that comes with
• 1:04:14
  wearing a helmet that realistically fits me, but really doesn't fit me comfortably.
• 1:04:20
  And so I think it's really important that people do try them on and try
• 1:04:24
  on all sorts of different helmets because a large sparco is not the same
• 1:04:29
  as a large bell is not the same as a large room at the end of the day.
• 1:04:31
  No, you know, like, exactly.
• 1:04:35
  I've worn, I'm on my fourth bell helmet.
• 1:04:37
  They're all size seven and a half and they're four different models.
• 1:04:41
  As they progressed over the years.
• 1:04:43
  They're consistent.
• 1:04:44
  They consistently fit me.
• 1:04:46
  If I put on, were to put on an Arai GP6, I need an extra large.
• 1:04:50
  I can't even get a large on my head.
• 1:04:52
  Stilo large plus.
• 1:04:54
  I don't remember what size Simpson I tried on, but Simpson just didn't fit my head.
• 1:04:58
  It was, nothing wrong with the Simpson helmet.
• 1:05:01
  It's my head, the shape of my noggin just didn't fit in the thing.
• 1:05:05
  Same with the Rooks helmet.
• 1:05:06
  Wanted one of those with the integrated communications gear.
• 1:05:09
  I was like, I was all about it.
• 1:05:11
  I tried changing cheek pads.
• 1:05:12
  What it was, was around the crown of my head.
• 1:05:15
  My head just didn't fit in it properly.
• 1:05:17
  Just not comfortably, or it was like it was sitting more on my
• 1:05:21
  head than my head being in it.
• 1:05:24
  Which is, you know, I like my, I feel like it's in it.
• 1:05:26
  You know, it's in, it's down, it's tight.
• 1:05:28
  You know, cause it's, you know, you don't want an uncomfortable helmet.
• 1:05:30
  You're distracted because that little portion of your brain is going to be
• 1:05:34
  going, man, I hate this helmet, man.
• 1:05:36
  I hate this helmet while you're going down the chute at some point.
• 1:05:40
  And just to add on to that, how should a helmet fit?
• 1:05:44
  Like, what is the proper fitting helmet feel like?
• 1:05:47
  It needs to be snug.
• 1:05:49
  It needs to feel like it's tight, slight pressure on your cheeks, but
• 1:05:53
  not that where you can't speak without fighting the inside of your cheek.
• 1:05:57
  You know, that's generally what I tell people where you
• 1:06:00
  don't want or the uncomfortable pressure right on your forehead.
• 1:06:03
  You'll know if it's too tight.
• 1:06:06
  If you're, you know, if you put it on in the, in the showroom and walking
• 1:06:09
  around and within two or three minutes, it starts to hurt because, you know,
• 1:06:13
  it could be that you have an inventory.
• 1:06:14
  I'll go to the adventures of Mark Francis for a second.
• 1:06:17
  I've had like this in between size head.
• 1:06:21
  I tried the size down and it was slightly too tight.
• 1:06:24
  And so the size I wear now.
• 1:06:27
  But the headsock is perfect.
• 1:06:29
  Without the headsock, it feels, after it broke in, it feels a little loose.
• 1:06:33
  You know, my old helmet that I raced in for several years, that I now use
• 1:06:37
  when I go karting, you know, I don't, I don't even take the balaclava anymore.
• 1:06:41
  But it's funny.
• 1:06:42
  It doesn't fit the same without it.
• 1:06:44
  You don't want it to feel like it without the chin strap.
• 1:06:47
  If you were to abruptly like flop your head forward, have the thing come
• 1:06:50
  off your head needs to stay in it.
• 1:06:52
  Since we're still talking about helmets, a lot of organizations
• 1:06:55
  allow you to run open face.
• 1:06:57
  How do you feel about open face helmets?
• 1:06:59
  Personally, I've worn one one time at a track day's event where I was asked to
• 1:07:04
  get in a car and I didn't have my gear.
• 1:07:06
  And I'll tell you what, it felt weird.
• 1:07:09
  Because I've always worn a full face helmet, I've always
• 1:07:11
  wanted that protection.
• 1:07:12
  You know, whether it's debris.
• 1:07:14
  You know, what happens if I hit a deer?
• 1:07:16
  And the thing comes, you know, the pieces of it come through
• 1:07:18
  the windshield or the side door.
• 1:07:20
  You know, I don't want to have my face messed up.
• 1:07:23
  Now, of course, there have been all these, you know, various discussions about open
• 1:07:28
  face or full face in a car with airbags.
• 1:07:31
  I don't know the right answer for that one.
• 1:07:33
  Because you hear on the forums, you hear everybody arguing both
• 1:07:36
  sides of that all day long.
• 1:07:37
  I mean, personally, I like the idea, I like a full face helmet.
• 1:07:41
  Open faced for autocross on the track.
• 1:07:45
  I don't know.
• 1:07:45
  It just it just feels weird It's just like why you know, I wouldn't go out
• 1:07:49
  on the track without a shirt on or barefoot So visors up or visors down
• 1:07:54
  when you're behind a windshield.
• 1:07:56
  I keep mine cracked at the bottom.
• 1:07:57
  I need a little airflow I just get I get claustrophobic when it's
• 1:08:00
  shot all the way but then again I've never driven an open car.
• 1:08:04
  Obviously an open car would be closed So i'd have to i'd have to learn how to deal
• 1:08:07
  with it You know, there's other parts to this whole setup The helmet is just part
• 1:08:11
  of it And nowadays the helmets are already pre drilled for hans weiss's and simpsons
• 1:08:16
  and all that for anchor posts and whatnot But yeah, they have the threaded they
• 1:08:20
  have the threaded terminals are molded into the shell during the manufacturing
• 1:08:24
  process Yeah, you're not allowed to drill any holes in a helmet right now.
• 1:08:28
  It'll void the certification You I know FIA has made that very clear, you
• 1:08:32
  know, the days of, you know, wiring up radios and popping a couple rivets
• 1:08:36
  in to rivet the connection for your earbuds onto the side of the helmet.
• 1:08:40
  You know, we used to drill helmets for Hans anchors.
• 1:08:42
  I've guys used to drill holes in the, in the chin bar to want to drink to, you
• 1:08:46
  know, you cannot do any of that anymore.
• 1:08:48
  It voids the certification.
• 1:08:50
  That's actually really good to know because I had a helmet drilled years ago.
• 1:08:54
  And so I didn't realize that that was the case.
• 1:08:56
  Well, back then, well, back then you could back the, you know, the pro team
• 1:09:00
  that you see the, the pros running the 24 hours of Daytona with a drink
• 1:09:04
  tube going right through the chin bar.
• 1:09:05
  Now you can't make any alterations to the shell for the, for the FIA.
• 1:09:10
  Um, that's why you see these manufacturers now like Stilo and Rooks, it's already in
• 1:09:15
  there and there's like a little cool shirt adapter on the side to plug a drink line
• 1:09:19
  into, you know, to get your hydration.
• 1:09:22
  You know, the threaded terminals are now in there to screw the Hans anchors into.
• 1:09:26
  No more getting painter's tape and a sharpie and a tape measure and measuring
• 1:09:30
  and drilling holes in it and putting a backing washer between the padding and
• 1:09:34
  the shell and screwing the anchors in.
• 1:09:36
  That went out with the SA 15 helmets.
• 1:09:39
  All the SA 15 helmets had Threaded terminals molded into the shell during
• 1:09:43
  the manufacturing process, trying to get in line with the FIA certifications.
• 1:09:47
  So since you brought that up, we actually talked about this a good bit on an episode
• 1:09:52
  called things I wish I knew as a new, where we discuss helmets and gloves and
• 1:09:56
  things of that nature with, with Brad and Mike, who are here with us tonight.
• 1:10:00
  And one of the things I wanted to talk about.
• 1:10:01
  Just bring up again, since we're talking about it, is the expiration
• 1:10:05
  and certification dates of helmets now.
• 1:10:08
  Mm-Hmm.
• 1:10:08
  , most people don't realize helmets are good for about 11 years, and
• 1:10:12
  that's because there's a one year grace period there where the new
• 1:10:15
  helmets generally aren't out yet.
• 1:10:17
  And so, you know, you aren't gonna buy your 2020 helmet until probably 2021.
• 1:10:23
  And that just has to do with manufacturing, logistics and,
• 1:10:25
  and all that kind of stuff.
• 1:10:26
  Yeah.
• 1:10:26
  Time.
• 1:10:27
  Time for the time for all the distributors.
• 1:10:29
  To have inventory for you to make a selection.
• 1:10:32
  Yes, exactly.
• 1:10:33
  I was made aware that two weeks ago, SCCA has said they will allow
• 1:10:38
  an essay 2010 helmet through next year to the end of the season.
• 1:10:43
  So I think other clubs will follow suit at least maybe to six months.
• 1:10:47
  I know in the past, PCA and NASA have said, you know, we'll let
• 1:10:51
  you use it till, you know, June 30th of the, of the next year.
• 1:10:54
  By then, we'll want you to have it.
• 1:10:57
  In 2015, there was a, there was a supply shortage when the SA 15s came out.
• 1:11:03
  Bell had moved their worldwide manufacturing.
• 1:11:05
  There was obviously logistical hiccups with getting that up and running
• 1:11:09
  and getting the helmets produced.
• 1:11:10
  Two other manufacturers didn't even release theirs till January of 2017.
• 1:11:15
  was by the time we received them.
• 1:11:17
  So we'd already missed a year, you know, going through the, uh, the, uh, essay
• 1:11:21
  ratings, you know, testing process.
• 1:11:23
  They were late, but yeah, generally you're right.
• 1:11:26
  A lot of the clubs will, we're going to give you that grace period.
• 1:11:29
  In this case, SCCA has said the end of 21, right?
• 1:11:34
  The other clubs have not made a decision yet.
• 1:11:36
  They've implied that, yeah, we're probably going to give you some extra
• 1:11:39
  time, but they haven't, they haven't put it you know, in an email blast yet.
• 1:11:43
  Uh, what it is.
• 1:11:44
  At least I haven't seen it.
• 1:11:45
  And correct me if I'm wrong, most of the reason the helmet quote unquote
• 1:11:49
  expires, I've heard two different things.
• 1:11:51
  One, the outer casing or, you know, the M& M shell there, holding all that gooey
• 1:11:56
  chocolate inside, gets brittle over time.
• 1:11:58
  And that's, and that wears down because, you know, and the enamel and all that
• 1:12:02
  stuff that's on the outside for the paint.
• 1:12:04
  But also your sweat, because it bleeds into the foam and the material inside
• 1:12:10
  the helmet, it accelerates the breakdown.
• 1:12:12
  Of the fire retardant material and all that kind of stuff.
• 1:12:15
  Yeah.
• 1:12:15
  They said that they say it could, and, you know, with each certification,
• 1:12:19
  they may come, they may come up with a new safety feature.
• 1:12:22
  That's part of that.
• 1:12:24
  You know, like when FIA came out, you know, the east side of the FIA 8859.
• 1:12:28
  And then when they came out with FIA 8860, there was more
• 1:12:32
  reinforcement in the chin bar and the frontal area around the eye port.
• 1:12:36
  And I think that was a, something that came out of after the.
• 1:12:40
  Incident where Felipe Massa took a spring off Rubens Barrichello's brawn
• 1:12:45
  that hit went hit him right where his shield was, you know, that that led to
• 1:12:49
  them putting that piece or one of the top and now these double pain visors that
• 1:12:54
  you see on some helmets, you know, more protection because it because it broke
• 1:12:58
  through and hit him, you know, it cracked his skull above his eye and it nearly
• 1:13:02
  killed him, but that led to, you know, changes in that reinforcement area around
• 1:13:06
  there around the front of the helmet.
• 1:13:08
  You know, here's a question you're going to hear from your.
• 1:13:11
  Probably new people showing up at your event this weekend.
• 1:13:13
  You know, when are the 2020 helmets coming out?
• 1:13:15
  Should I just wait and get a 2020?
• 1:13:17
  You know, the answer is, you know, I always tell people, it depends.
• 1:13:20
  How much are you going to the track?
• 1:13:21
  Oh, I go, I do like 12 events a year.
• 1:13:25
  And I asked him, are you good?
• 1:13:26
  Do you really, you really think you're going to wear the helmet for 10 to
• 1:13:29
  11 years of sweating in it, of, you know, getting paint chips, you know,
• 1:13:33
  bumping it against the roll cage, getting out of the car or whatever.
• 1:13:36
  And, you know, a lot of times they'll be like, No.
• 1:13:39
  So, you know, then there's a chance to pick up an SA 15 on sale because they
• 1:13:45
  will all be on sale, especially when the 20 start shipping, which will be October
• 1:13:49
  1st, by the way, is when, according for the, uh, snow foundation rules, they can
• 1:13:53
  start, manufacturers can start shipping them to the, their distribution network,
• 1:13:59
  starting on October 1st of this year.
• 1:14:01
  I will say I've used my 2010 helmet since 2014.
• 1:14:08
  And and eric knows just how many track events i've done in that thing Yeah,
• 1:14:11
  yeah, yeah, it could it could it could do its own track day at this point.
• 1:14:15
  It's measured in dog years at this point Yeah Typically typically admit
• 1:14:21
  the manufacturers will you know sort of a party line, you know for lack of a
• 1:14:25
  better term They'll say in five years.
• 1:14:27
  It's time to get a helmet if you're using it a lot now for the for the
• 1:14:30
  autocrosser That does a couple autocrosses a year and we know what's you know,
• 1:14:35
  typical autocross runs about a minute You Minute, 10 seconds, maybe less.
• 1:14:40
  You know, they're not really, the helmet's not getting the wear and tear
• 1:14:43
  of an HPDE or a club racer person.
• 1:14:46
  You're not wearing it for a long periods of time.
• 1:14:49
  You know, you put your helmet on, you do your autocross first of
• 1:14:51
  your three or four runs of the day.
• 1:14:53
  Come in, you take it off.
• 1:14:55
  I would not be surprised if my helmet has 160 days on it.
• 1:14:58
  Really?
• 1:14:58
  That's, that's good.
• 1:14:59
  You've had it for six years.
• 1:15:01
  The longest I've worn one is, uh, I think I wore one helmet for seven.
• 1:15:05
  But the funny thing is, is there was a stretch of about three
• 1:15:09
  of those years where I maybe I wore it once, once that season.
• 1:15:13
  So Mark, another big question that comes up, and this is again along the lines
• 1:15:17
  of wives tales and Mythbusters here.
• 1:15:19
  I've heard if you drop your helmet from any height, you
• 1:15:22
  know, be it an inch or ten feet.
• 1:15:25
  It's time to throw it away and get another one.
• 1:15:26
  Now there's always instances and I've heard swearing all over the paddock.
• 1:15:31
  Somebody had it on the roof and they didn't grab it right.
• 1:15:34
  Or it fell off the cage or off the hook, or, you know, you had it on the fender
• 1:15:38
  of the go kart and it hit the ground.
• 1:15:39
  I mean, what's, what's the truth here.
• 1:15:41
  I mean, you don't want to do it repeatedly or beat it into the ground.
• 1:15:45
  Can your helmet take a fall?
• 1:15:47
  And you don't have to rush out tomorrow and go buy another one.
• 1:15:50
  Depends on the fall.
• 1:15:51
  How many times have I seen it in 23 years of going to the track, where you
• 1:15:56
  know the guy gets out and he sits it on the roof of his car and it's Derek sits
• 1:16:01
  and then you know blue run group five minute call and the guy jumps in the car.
• 1:16:06
  Fires it up, throws it in gear, drives away in that helmet, rolls off the
• 1:16:11
  car, and bounces across the paddock.
• 1:16:13
  Yeah, that's not, it's not good for it.
• 1:16:15
  I'm very careful with mine, and I, I reinforce that with students.
• 1:16:19
  Be very careful with it.
• 1:16:20
  Don't, don't sit it there.
• 1:16:21
  Nope.
• 1:16:22
  Take it off, sit it, when I get out of the car, sit it on the
• 1:16:24
  passengers down on the footwell.
• 1:16:26
  Not even on the seat, you know, just so it doesn't bounce around.
• 1:16:30
  Now, is it true that if It were to fall off, say, sitting on the back, sitting
• 1:16:35
  on the wing on the back of your, of your, uh, TT, and fall and hit the ground?
• 1:16:40
  To be honest with you, I don't know.
• 1:16:43
  That's a, that's a question for an engineer.
• 1:16:44
  I would ask a manufacturer for definitive.
• 1:16:47
  Yes, I've heard the same thing.
• 1:16:49
  I was told that at one point, as, you know, when I was a beginner.
• 1:16:53
  If your helmet falls and hits the ground, it's done.
• 1:16:56
  And one of the people was a doctor.
• 1:16:58
  I don't know.
• 1:16:58
  I just I tell everybody just be safe.
• 1:17:01
  Don't leave it sitting on the top of your car.
• 1:17:03
  Don't leave it sitting on the, you know, the open tail gate of your
• 1:17:06
  pickup truck is if you decide, Oh, shoot, I gotta run to the gas pumps
• 1:17:10
  and you're gonna forget it's there.
• 1:17:11
  It's gonna fall off.
• 1:17:13
  And also don't leave it sitting out the sun.
• 1:17:14
  That is bad for you see too many people doing that sitting on the roof of the car.
• 1:17:19
  At some point in August, that's not a good idea.
• 1:17:21
  I can keep it in the shade.
• 1:17:23
  It's not good for it.
• 1:17:24
  And it's not good for you.
• 1:17:25
  I don't want to put a hot helmet on.
• 1:17:27
  Yeah, I've actually walked by people's cars and picked it up
• 1:17:30
  and set it like inside the car and then, Hey, I put your help.
• 1:17:34
  Don't leave it up here.
• 1:17:35
  Yeah.
• 1:17:36
  So, so listeners, if you've ever wondered why your helmet moved
• 1:17:38
  from where it was and mysteriously ended up in your car, it's Mark.
• 1:17:41
  Yeah.
• 1:17:42
  A hundred percent.
• 1:17:44
  The last portion of like our conversation here, now we're graduating into
• 1:17:48
  the clothing part of this because it is again, part of the system.
• 1:17:51
  And we're not advocating that everybody rush out tomorrow and go buy all this
• 1:17:55
  stuff, but they definitely need to be aware that it all works together.
• 1:17:58
  So just like the seats and the belts, you know, the helmet, the Hans and
• 1:18:03
  the neck restraint and whatever.
• 1:18:04
  Now we get into the clothing you wear at the track.
• 1:18:07
  And so Mike, Oftentimes the rules state you must wear long clothing,
• 1:18:12
  cotton, and things like that.
• 1:18:13
  Do you want to elaborate on that?
• 1:18:14
  The rules for long sleeves have especially been relaxed in recent years.
• 1:18:19
  Don't be, don't be surprised if you show up to a track event and you are required
• 1:18:24
  to have long, they might even get so hard as non heavily fire reactive material.
• 1:18:31
  I'll put it that way.
• 1:18:32
  You know, no, no, uh, Polyester sweatpants or anything like that.
• 1:18:36
  Uh, they'll probably gonna want you to have a cotton or cotton blend.
• 1:18:40
  And like, no, no, no juicy yoga pants while I'm driving my juicy van.
• 1:18:46
  Anyway, that's for another episode.
• 1:18:48
  They could, they could be cotton.
• 1:18:49
  You don't know.
• 1:18:49
  Yeah, um, yeah, uh, closed toed shoes and possibly requiring a
• 1:18:56
  long sleeve shirt for a while.
• 1:18:58
  You're in the car prize of all that.
• 1:19:00
  And jeans are usually preferred as well because there are heavy cotton
• 1:19:03
  material and cotton shirts, et cetera.
• 1:19:06
  And again, to your point, that's because of their, their flame.
• 1:19:10
  Resistance they will light on fire.
• 1:19:13
  It's just more difficult to light cotton on fire heavy cotton on fire than it is a
• 1:19:17
  lot of other materials So mark as a as a as an expert in this in this arena Do we
• 1:19:23
  all need to just run out and go buy fire suits tomorrow or are we going to be okay?
• 1:19:28
  If we're just wearing jeans in a t shirt when I instruct I still wear
• 1:19:33
  jeans and a long You know whether they're going long or short sleeve.
• 1:19:36
  I still I think Also, I'll wear a long sleeve cotton t shirt all too often.
• 1:19:40
  I see people wearing sports fabric, moisture, wicking stuff.
• 1:19:45
  Like you said, polyester.
• 1:19:46
  What happens to polyester when it gets, if it is exposed to flame, it melts.
• 1:19:51
  What happens when the polyester melts and on your skin, it sticks, you
• 1:19:56
  know, that's what I'll tell you guys.
• 1:19:56
  Don't wear that.
• 1:19:57
  You know, your cool sport fabric, body hugging.
• 1:20:00
  Workout clothes to the to drive on the track.
• 1:20:02
  Jeans are good.
• 1:20:04
  You know, long sleeve cotton shirt is fine There are if you want to wear a suit and
• 1:20:08
  and you know this there's been any of the last few years There's been a lot of talk.
• 1:20:12
  I'm seeing more people at drivers at events wearing a driving suit You can
• 1:20:16
  wear a a single layer fire of fire resistant material It's not going to set
• 1:20:21
  you back seven or eight hundred dollars.
• 1:20:24
  You know, they're about 150 I've seen guys wearing they go to the
• 1:20:27
  surplus store and get a flight suit You know, maybe the helicopter or
• 1:20:31
  fighter pilots wear in the military.
• 1:20:32
  Those are fire resistant and they're thin, a little more comfortable.
• 1:20:36
  So that kind of brings up some wives tales there, right?
• 1:20:38
  So is it true that the Nomex thread breaks down?
• 1:20:42
  I don't know a hundred percent.
• 1:20:43
  I've heard that, but eventually the treatment that's part of the, you know,
• 1:20:47
  when it's made can, you know, my suit is, was manufactured in 2005, probably worn
• 1:20:54
  it maybe 12 times, 15 times, maybe total.
• 1:20:59
  You know, I just, I had a block of years, I didn't race, I don't, you know, so
• 1:21:02
  it stayed in the closet, you know, I'd bring it home, I wash it properly, I
• 1:21:06
  let it dry, and then it goes back, hang, it's hanging in my closet, it's not
• 1:21:09
  balled up, you know, out of the garage, so that, that one I'm not 100 percent
• 1:21:13
  sure on actually, if it degrades or not.
• 1:21:16
  Now the, the newer FIA certifications that started with this, products made for
• 1:21:21
  this year, now have an expiration date.
• 1:21:23
  Before, as long as your suit met the current standard, you know, let's
• 1:21:27
  say in case of my suit, 8856 2000, it's still a valid FIA standard.
• 1:21:33
  So therefore, it, you know, if I were to go to a pro race, it would pass tech.
• 1:21:38
  You know, the stuff that had came out, you know, for 2020 models now
• 1:21:42
  have a new certification on it.
• 1:21:44
  And I think they're going 8 to 10 years max, obviously, if your suit's
• 1:21:49
  on fire, you need to, if you're in a car that's on fire, and you had to.
• 1:21:53
  Discharge your fire system and get out.
• 1:21:55
  Yeah, you need this shoe.
• 1:21:56
  You're not going to wear it again for other reasons You know the big
• 1:22:00
  thing, you know when the beginners ask me i'll tell them one thing that's
• 1:22:04
  important Get a good pair of shoes.
• 1:22:06
  Don't show up in your Nearly inch thick sole running shoes or shoes.
• 1:22:12
  You'd wear hiking on a trail Because you're, you're losing pedal feel, you
• 1:22:16
  know, I'll tell them you want to make your first investment in safety gear,
• 1:22:20
  get a pair of driving shoes and a pair of gloves, gloves that give you a more
• 1:22:24
  relaxed grip on the steering wheel, you know, leather steering wheel, hot
• 1:22:27
  day at the track, air palms, sweaty hands, you're going to be gripping the
• 1:22:31
  steering wheel tighter because your hands are slippery, you know, the gloves
• 1:22:34
  make you have a more relaxed grip, relaxed grip releases tension going up
• 1:22:38
  through your arms to your shoulders.
• 1:22:40
  When you're tensed up like that, your body's burning, expending energy.
• 1:22:44
  You know, anything to make you more comfortable so you're not
• 1:22:48
  holding on with the Vulcan death grip on the steering wheel.
• 1:22:51
  And the shoes, I like, you know, driving shoe for pedal feel so you can, you know,
• 1:22:55
  get a more sense, you know, you could, uh, the, you know, the, the gas brake
• 1:22:59
  clutch, you know, clutch, unless you have a, you know, PDK, you know, those are
• 1:23:04
  the two places I've generally, somebody asked me, okay, I'm ordering my helmet.
• 1:23:08
  What else do you think I should get?
• 1:23:09
  And I'll tell him, get a pair of shoes.
• 1:23:11
  You can buy, you can buy a Nomex pair of racing shoes that will be legal
• 1:23:14
  if you want to race for under 100.
• 1:23:17
  There, there's several out there.
• 1:23:19
  You know, you don't have to spend, you know, 250 on a Nomex shoe.
• 1:23:23
  Same thing with a pair of gloves.
• 1:23:25
  You can get a good pair of driving gloves, er, racing gloves for 60.
• 1:23:29
  All day long.
• 1:23:31
  Let me know when they have a 13 4E driving shoe.
• 1:23:34
  Ha ha ha ha!
• 1:23:36
  4E?
• 1:23:37
  Yeah.
• 1:23:38
  Well, I know that, uh, OMP makes a shoe.
• 1:23:41
  That the omp one it's it's like an oversized it's an it's an extra wide
• 1:23:46
  I don't know if it's for e i'd have to look but they make a wide shoe
• 1:23:50
  for people, you know Some people have wide feet for a second there.
• 1:23:53
  He said omp whatever that model was I thought he was telling you
• 1:23:56
  to put race seats on your feet
• 1:24:02
  Whatever omp omp makes driver gear too.
• 1:24:03
  It's really good stuff, too Let's talk about gloves again for just a second.
• 1:24:08
  We talked about this in our noobs episode, but Mark, best color for a glove?
• 1:24:13
  I'll tell people, get a glove that's HPDE setting, and there are a few manufacturers
• 1:24:22
  that make nice bright yellow.
• 1:24:24
  Easy to see when you're giving your hand signals that you got that we're all
• 1:24:28
  still doing it at HPD slash driver's ed.
• 1:24:31
  You know, if you have a black car, don't get a black glove, you know Oops, sorry
• 1:24:36
  and for the in the in the HPD setting now.
• 1:24:38
  Hey, i'll be the first to bed.
• 1:24:39
  I'd I had uh, Actually, I blew the first time but i've had black gloves, too Great.
• 1:24:44
  I look like darth vader when i'm out there.
• 1:24:46
  Everything's black.
• 1:24:47
  So They're all blacked out.
• 1:24:48
  Yeah, but you're also driving in the strucker group, too True but
• 1:24:52
  I tell the beginners, you know, if you have if you have a A yellow car?
• 1:24:55
  Then yeah, get a black glove or a red glove or, you know, does
• 1:25:00
  all your stuff have to match?
• 1:25:01
  Some people want it to.
• 1:25:03
  Doesn't have to.
• 1:25:05
  I'd say, uh, shoes stay away from red.
• 1:25:07
  I've noticed with the red shoes, eventually they start to turn
• 1:25:10
  pink, you know, as they fade out.
• 1:25:12
  You know, and they show dirt things.
• 1:25:14
  You know, get a darker color on your shoes.
• 1:25:17
  Especially if you're going to walk around in the paddock in them all day.
• 1:25:19
  So to your point, Mark, about shoes, uh, so I want to come, I want to
• 1:25:23
  kind of give you a little bit of rebuttal or counterpoint there.
• 1:25:27
  Couple things I found with driving shoes, right?
• 1:25:29
  I have a, I have a set of Sparco booties.
• 1:25:32
  I love them.
• 1:25:32
  I use them when I'm competing, but I also wear them with my race suit, with my
• 1:25:37
  long socks, with my whole setup, right?
• 1:25:39
  Because it's all Nomex and it all goes together.
• 1:25:42
  However, as a coach, I'm in and out of the car all day long.
• 1:25:46
  I'm running around the paddock like a chicken with my head cut off.
• 1:25:48
  They are not the most comfortable shoes in the world and they are
• 1:25:51
  not the most resilient, especially if the paddock isn't smooth.
• 1:25:55
  You go somewhere like Palmer where, or I don't know if it is anymore, where it
• 1:25:58
  used to be all gravel or some of these paddocks, yeah, it tears up the shoes.
• 1:26:03
  So I usually recommend people, if you want to get the same experience for even
• 1:26:07
  less money and save a couple bucks, go buy yourself Some Adidas Samba indoor soccer
• 1:26:13
  shoes or some classic Chucks or something.
• 1:26:16
  That's a flat shoe with a thin sole.
• 1:26:18
  And you can pick them up for 40, 40 bucks or 50 bucks or
• 1:26:21
  whatever at your local target.
• 1:26:23
  But the upside is they hold up better when it rains.
• 1:26:27
  They hold up better when you're walking around all day and they just kind of
• 1:26:30
  hold up better all together So I think when you're learning I I wouldn't really
• 1:26:35
  say get hung up on buying, you know off the shelf shoes They look really cool.
• 1:26:40
  Don't get me wrong.
• 1:26:41
  I mean it puts the whole package together, right?
• 1:26:43
  But what are your thoughts on that?
• 1:26:44
  I drove in wrestling shoes till I had to have nomex when I went to did my
• 1:26:48
  first club race because yeah They were 40 50 bucks at sports authority and I
• 1:26:54
  got the same thin sole feel You The one thing you notice would know when you
• 1:26:58
  do put on a pair of driving shoes and I, you know, I wear chucks around the
• 1:27:01
  paddock all the time and I've jumped in a car at the last minute to go drive.
• 1:27:05
  And my trucks, you know, from time to time at the track.
• 1:27:08
  The only thing is, is, you know, where you're sitting with, you know,
• 1:27:11
  with your feet basically resting on your heels, that's where you feel
• 1:27:14
  the difference, you know, the driving shoe has the sole that comes up over
• 1:27:17
  the backside of your heel and there is a little extra padding in there.
• 1:27:20
  So that is more comfortable, but you're right.
• 1:27:23
  Walking around in them all day.
• 1:27:25
  Got a pair that I wear driver's eds and I, my.
• 1:27:28
  Boots that I race in the race boots.
• 1:27:30
  I don't wear it at the E cause a lot of times, once I put my driving shoes on,
• 1:27:33
  I stay in them unless it's raining, then I will come in and take my shoes off.
• 1:27:37
  But I like mainly, I like having the no max on my feet just in case, you
• 1:27:42
  know, feet and hands and face to me, the three big places you don't want to
• 1:27:46
  have burned now, how likely is a fire seems like these days, not very, but
• 1:27:51
  just in case, you know, those would be the hardest things to deal with.
• 1:27:55
  But if.
• 1:27:56
  If let's say I happen to be in some guy's old older race car and we had a fire,
• 1:28:01
  you know I don't want my feet burnt.
• 1:28:03
  We need our feet to walk.
• 1:28:04
  We need our hands to do things And to feed ourselves and open
• 1:28:08
  doors and everything else.
• 1:28:09
  So that's where I tend at a, at a D every time I get in a car, that's usually
• 1:28:14
  where I have my nomex on all the time.
• 1:28:15
  And one last question about the suits, right.
• 1:28:18
  And what you should be going into battle with as we put all this stuff
• 1:28:22
  together, what should you, what's your recommendation for under a driving suit?
• 1:28:27
  If you decide to go down that path, what, what would you wear
• 1:28:30
  underneath of your racing suit?
• 1:28:32
  Commando.
• 1:28:32
  Um.
• 1:28:33
  I mean, if you want to go walk around a paddock like Elvis with the thing zipped
• 1:28:40
  down to your navel, I mean, that's fine, but you got to wear something under there.
• 1:28:45
  When I have my driving suit on, I have a short sleeved fire resistant
• 1:28:49
  shirt, but most of the time I'm wearing some sort of cotton boxer briefs.
• 1:28:53
  You can get Nomex underwear, and obviously the more layers you put
• 1:28:56
  on, the more protection you have.
• 1:28:59
  The technology has gotten as such that, you know, a three layer driving suit
• 1:29:03
  today feels paper thin compared to a three layer driving suit from even 10 years ago.
• 1:29:08
  As these manufacturers, it's like everything else.
• 1:29:10
  It's like with cars and electronics and cell phones and TVs and
• 1:29:14
  every whatever, everything else.
• 1:29:16
  You know, they've made it where the Nomex has become more, has become lighter
• 1:29:21
  and more breathable underneath them.
• 1:29:23
  Typically, you know, a lot of times I'll have a cotton t shirt, you know,
• 1:29:26
  I have a three layer driving suit now, cotton t shirt, cotton boxer briefs.
• 1:29:30
  So I will wear Nomex socks.
• 1:29:32
  Of course, it's required.
• 1:29:34
  So going back to what you said before about like the dry fit
• 1:29:36
  clothing and the underarmor, etc.
• 1:29:39
  Because of the protection that the race suit gives you, is it okay to wear that
• 1:29:43
  type of material under the race suit?
• 1:29:47
  Well, the race suit will keep the flames out, but you're still going to get hot.
• 1:29:50
  I would, my recommendation would be don't wear that, don't
• 1:29:53
  wear that fabric in a race car.
• 1:29:56
  Now, the manufacturers are getting more into, that make the Nomex, are
• 1:30:01
  now making these moisture wicking, but it is fire resistant material.
• 1:30:05
  And it's actually really nice compared to what it was.
• 1:30:08
  You know, I've got an old Nomex turtleneck from like year 2005
• 1:30:14
  that is, I wear it on cold days.
• 1:30:16
  Like if we got to, we were out on the track in February or March where
• 1:30:18
  it's 35 degrees in the morning, because it's a layer of warmth.
• 1:30:22
  But if you hold it up to something today on the shelf, You're like, good God, this
• 1:30:26
  thing feels like it's four times as thick.
• 1:30:28
  I understand what you're saying about the moisture wicking stuff, but if you
• 1:30:30
  look at some of the undergarments made by, you know, Sparco, O& P, Alpine Stars,
• 1:30:36
  putting that moisture wicking properties into a fire resistant shirt, and it works.
• 1:30:42
  And there was a company called Track Gear that, that had a really nice,
• 1:30:45
  I don't know how he came up with it.
• 1:30:47
  The, you know, the, the guy who founded or the guy that developed the stuff.
• 1:30:51
  And they were black, but I wore it underneath my suit and how
• 1:30:54
  cool, how much cooler I felt.
• 1:30:56
  I stopped wearing my regular t shirt, you know, whatever random t shirt
• 1:30:59
  I had on that day underneath my driving suit after seeing the newer
• 1:31:03
  undergarments and what they do and how much more comfortable it is.
• 1:31:06
  Cause they do allow, they, it's weird.
• 1:31:07
  It's they breathe, but they keep the fire out.
• 1:31:10
  Now they'll still get warm.
• 1:31:11
  Obviously fire makes heat.
• 1:31:12
  You're going to get warm.
• 1:31:13
  That's why I just don't like the idea of wearing.
• 1:31:15
  You know, the under, you know, under armor, whatever the
• 1:31:18
  sports fabric polyester stuff.
• 1:31:20
  I don't think it's the brightest idea.
• 1:31:21
  People do it, but there, there are motor sports undergarments that will give you
• 1:31:26
  those, some of those properties that you can wear and be safe at the same time.
• 1:31:30
  Nice.
• 1:31:31
  So Mark, before we wrap this up, is there anything that we didn't cover
• 1:31:36
  that you want to bring up that, you know, newbies and intermediates and
• 1:31:39
  even advanced drivers alike maybe haven't thought about in a while that
• 1:31:43
  we didn't cover in this particular episode that you want to mention?
• 1:31:46
  Well, I would say to newbies and you know, we're, we're obviously we're in an era
• 1:31:51
  now where the cars coming off the dealer lots faster and a lot of cases of cars
• 1:31:59
  that were raced at the professional level.
• 1:32:01
  10 or 11 years ago, right out of the box.
• 1:32:05
  They're faster.
• 1:32:06
  You know, the beginners are coming out to the to the track.
• 1:32:08
  Think safety first because I, we still see guys coming out beginners and they've
• 1:32:14
  got, you know, their brand new Corvette.
• 1:32:16
  Oh, and I just had it at such and such, and it's now 790 horsepower at
• 1:32:21
  the wheels and, but three point belts, you know, no head, neck restraint, you
• 1:32:26
  know, guys get out of the truck, drive the car a little bit, get used to it.
• 1:32:31
  You know, go safety over horsepower.
• 1:32:33
  You know, I've been, I've been preaching that as an instructor, even before I
• 1:32:37
  was in this business, you know, the business of motor sports and safety
• 1:32:40
  gear, don't, don't rush, I guess would be a lack, you know, lack better term.
• 1:32:46
  You know, Build up that your experience, the speed comes, you know, you're going
• 1:32:51
  to get there, you know, all too often we see guys that, you know, come out
• 1:32:54
  that first day and after that first day, they want to go buy a race car.
• 1:32:58
  Now, there are some that can actually pick up that fast where they could
• 1:33:02
  be, you know, they have that natural talent, you know, that some of that
• 1:33:06
  talent that we, you know, we as instructors can't teach that natural
• 1:33:10
  ability, whatever you want to call it.
• 1:33:12
  God given ability, take the right approach, take it slow, learn.
• 1:33:16
  Have fun at the same time.
• 1:33:18
  The speed comes.
• 1:33:19
  You'll get there.
• 1:33:20
  Absolutely.
• 1:33:21
  And Mark, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show.
• 1:33:24
  OG has been supporting GTM now since we started.
• 1:33:27
  I mean, thanks to you and thanks to people like Matt Yip and others.
• 1:33:30
  Yeah, I was going to say Matt Yip.
• 1:33:31
  Yeah, that we've been involved with forever.
• 1:33:33
  So, you know, OG has been a great sponsor.
• 1:33:35
  I mean, there's other distributors out there and other safety equipment
• 1:33:38
  manufacturers, obviously you're the closest one to us in the DMV and
• 1:33:42
  we'll continue to support you guys.
• 1:33:44
  Yeah.
• 1:33:44
  Hope to see some of you guys come by to OG racing.
• 1:33:47
  We are in our 30th year, three zero, since the company was
• 1:33:53
  founded in 1990 by Bill Love.
• 1:33:55
  We've come a long way.
• 1:33:56
  Everyone on staff are car people.
• 1:33:59
  We've got instructors, we've got racers, we've got former
• 1:34:02
  racers, we've got auto crossers.
• 1:34:04
  We've been doing this a long time.
• 1:34:06
  You know, we keep a large stock of inventory in the building.
• 1:34:10
  We're not a bunch of guys with a website and an iPhone.
• 1:34:13
  You know, we've a lot of experience.
• 1:34:14
  Bill's had a lot of experience in, you know, picking the best products
• 1:34:18
  that are out there in this industry.
• 1:34:21
  You know, we pride ourselves on our excellent customer service, having what
• 1:34:24
  you want in stock, getting, you know, 97 percent of the orders ship the same day,
• 1:34:31
  you know, just depending on the time of day they come in, you know, we really
• 1:34:34
  push our customer service and our long term relationships with our customers.
• 1:34:38
  And we've all made a lot of friends along the way.
• 1:34:41
  For the listeners out there, visit ogracing.
• 1:34:43
  com.
• 1:34:44
  They do more than just safety gear.
• 1:34:46
  As Mark alluded to, they've got brake pads and stock and fluids and all sorts
• 1:34:49
  of other things that you need for your track day or your track weapon or your
• 1:34:53
  autocross car or whatever it might be.
• 1:34:55
  But I, you know, we can't thank you enough for coming on the show.
• 1:34:57
  This thing could have been probably six hours long.
• 1:34:59
  Cause we could.
• 1:35:00
  Nosedive on any one of these topics, but we're hoping our listeners are
• 1:35:04
  getting more and more exposure to what it's like to be in motorsport answering
• 1:35:08
  some of these tougher questions and maybe just maybe after this conversation
• 1:35:12
  feel just a little bit safer about the whole concept of HPDE and track time.
• 1:35:17
  So again, thank you so much.
• 1:35:20
  Thanks for having me.
• 1:35:20
  Oh, uh, one more plug, uh, we launched our new website during the COVID lockdown.
• 1:35:25
  Inventory is live on the website, so come check us out, ogracing.
• 1:35:30
  com.
• 1:35:31
  But on that note, I think it's time to end.
• 1:35:33
  What do you think, Brad?
• 1:35:35
  Yeah, I think we've, uh, we beat this horse to death.
• 1:35:39
  But at least he's wearing a harness.
• 1:35:42
  Yes, yes.
• 1:35:44
  Guys, thanks for having me.
• 1:35:45
  This has been a great time.
• 1:35:46
  I'd love to do it again.
• 1:35:48
  Oh, definitely.
• 1:35:48
  Definitely.
• 1:35:49
  Absolutely.
• 1:35:49
  We'll come up with another topic.
• 1:35:55
  Hey listeners.
• 1:35:56
  Did you enjoy this particular episode?
• 1:35:59
  Did you know you can learn more about what we just talked about
• 1:36:02
  by visiting the GTM website?
• 1:36:04
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• 1:36:07
  episode, be sure to log on to www.
• 1:36:10
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• 1:36:12
  org today and search for this particular episode.
• 1:36:16
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• 1:36:20
  If you like what you've heard and want to learn more about GTM,
• 1:36:22
  be sure to check us out on www.
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• 1:36:26
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• 1:36:27
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• 1:36:42
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• 1:36:42
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• 1:36:44
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• 1:36:45
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• 1:36:49
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• 1:36:53
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• 1:36:57
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