Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | E15 Kathryn Ward on why growth mindset beats a perfect CV in charity leadership
Transcript
- Kathryn Ward: that to be in an HR job you have to like people. Adam Stacey: isn't there? Yeah, that's right. Kathryn Ward: There's quite a lot to unpack. I mean, I do like people. I am a people person. I absolutely am. I love them. I think they're fab. I think exploring different people, a little bit like the disproportionate joy question. I like meeting new people. get a lot out of it. But you don't have to have that to be good at HR. So it's that classic thing when somebody says, I want to be in HR because I really like people I'm going with. that is not the right motivation. it's not necessarily going to help you either. Adam Stacey: I'm really pleased to welcome Katherine on to the Charity Changemakers podcast today. Katherine, thank you so much for joining us. Kathryn Ward: Hello, hi Adam, nice to be here. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, it's great to have you. And I say this most weeks, but I can't do justice to an introduction. So slope your shoulders. I pass it, pass the responsibility on. If you can take a minute or so, just introduce who you are and what you do. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, absolutely. So the short version is that I am a people leader and I work as a consultant, an interim, a fractional and a coach in the charity space. Adam Stacey: and there's going to be lots that we cover through the conversation and pick up on. And it's one of the areas that I don't feel we've had enough guests that have got HR background qualifications. That's where they're working on the podcast over the last three seasons. So I'm really particularly pleased to you on the show. One of the things that we obviously do with all of our guests for the listeners to get the opportunity to get to know you a little bit before we start the conversation is to ask some of our quickfire. Quick fine question. So before we get into the big stuff, what does a good weekend or a day off look like for you? Kathryn Ward: Fantastic. So what would it look like? I'd start with some yoga in a yoga class. I'm rubbish at doing myself but I'm really good at being told what to do in yoga. It's one of the few places my family will tell you that I do what I'm told. So I'd head off there relatively early, come back slightly sleepy, blinking everything out of the way and then have a good brunch with the family. Possibly pancakes, definitely some bacon, lots of fruit and a nice nice coffee. And then I would probably drag my kids around something historical or archaeological, if I can even say that word. And they would roll their eyes at me getting caught at information boards, good views, geeking out over a couple of things and telling them a whole load of facts that they never knew that they really wanted to know. But they would find themselves passing them on and then cursing me a little bit later. So, yeah, probably rounding off with a bit of a walk around some gardens, I do love the National Trust English Heritage RHS place, and maybe a nice meal out with the family to finish or just end up back in the garden with a glass of rose. Adam Stacey: Sounds great. It's a long day though. Kathryn Ward: Well, yeah, and I'm not naturally an early person, but I will get up for yoga, which is why I put Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: it in. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really interesting as well that, yeah, in a hands case, yeah, good to be told what to do rather than, you know, something that you could do, I Kathryn Ward: Mm. Adam Stacey: guess, in the privacy of your own home, but that there's something improperly about a group element and yeah, that, yeah, I it's happened. Kathryn Ward: Yeah. There's something about being guided through for me that's really, really good. and I completely forgot there would definitely be a couple of hours at some point with a book. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Kathryn Ward: But if it's with the family, then we'll all have books and we'll all be kind of just hiding for a few hours. Maybe just take a picnic blanket to the historical venue. And when the family get bored and tell me to shut up, I'd just be like, right fine, okay, book time. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Good. So lots of opportunities to switch off. Yeah. Which is, yeah. Yeah. Which Kathryn Ward: Yeah, absolutely. Adam Stacey: is brilliant. Good. And what's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Kathryn Ward: You know what? There are two answers to this. So the daily thing that happens is that I've got three cats. We've got three cats in the family and the latest addition to the family is a kitten who was meant to be for my son. He chose her. She's decided that I am the only person that she will actually give love to. It gives me a disproportionate amount of joy that this little kitten has decided that I'm the one she loves. Adam Stacey: to. Kathryn Ward: I mean, it is rare that we get anything and unlike the rest of the family. She is the only person in the family that gets more friendly the more hungry she is. Everyone else gets less friendly and a bit Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yes. Kathryn Ward: more hangry. But yeah, just those little interactions with her. So generally, if I'm outside, she'll be, particularly this summer, she's been sleeping in little nests in garden. She Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: loves that. But if I go and put the washing out or go and check out on plants, she'll just run up and demand a cuddle. honestly, it's one of the reasons I do love a dog, but I do love a cat. And partly because they just are so independent. So when she chooses to give love or receive love, it's yeah, it's really special. The big thing for me though is I like having an interaction with a person, often a random stranger. So was walking past somebody last night on the way home from current work, walked past mansion house and there was a woman standing there obviously waiting for a date, looking a little bit nervous. had a huge pair of heels on, she had a dress on that was just a stunning cobalt blue and I just walked past her, stopped, turned and went. You look amazing. And just like the smile on her face at that point was fabulous. And it wasn't that I kind of went out of my way to think it. That was Adam Stacey: Yeah. Kathryn Ward: my reaction. But then to pass those things on or to have a little moment with somebody where you have a laugh or catch somebody's eye on the tube when it's being just hideous. Yeah, I love those interactions with people, Adam Stacey: Yes. Yes. Kathryn Ward: preferably just really random and just tiny moments. it does make that was what I missed most during Covid was those little interactions. But it gives me a disproportionate amount of joy. Adam Stacey: Yeah, Yeah, that's lovely. No, I really like that. And those moments don't happen enough, do they? I think we can be so head down thinking about the next thing that we're getting to, that we can miss the opportunity to either interact in those or engage in those moments. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, and it's a bit like networking. My view is you always go into that thinking, what can I give? What can I help people with? And actually you get so much more out of it that way. And I think you pick up on it, you know, because you're going in with that attitude, you also get helped and you get that joy and get those bits from people. So, yeah, it's really nice. Adam Stacey: That's one thing that people always assume about your job that just isn't true. Kathryn Ward: that to be in an HR job you have to like people. Adam Stacey: Yes, What with that diamond? There's a lot there to unpack, isn't there? Yeah, that's right. Kathryn Ward: I don't know if you want me to expand on that at all. There's quite a lot to unpack. I mean, I do like people. I am a people person. I absolutely am. I love them. I think they're fab. I think exploring different people, a little bit like the disproportionate joy question. I like meeting new people. get a lot out of it. But you don't have to have that to be good at HR. So it's that classic thing when somebody says, I want to be in HR because I really like people I'm going with. that is not the right motivation. it's not necessarily going to help you either. But there seems to be an assumption that to be in a HR people leader, people role, you have to be a real people person. And there's space for that, but there's also a huge space for a lot of other skills. And the more we move into this hybrid world of AI enhanced working, the more we look at how, you know, HR. got the place at the table during COVID, I think we've still got it in most cases. The ways of working, the intelligent conversations around culture. You've got to understand people, but it doesn't mean you always have to like them. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. And I suspect this might be a come out a little bit more through the conversation as we as we move through it. So that's really, really helpful. And how did it all, and this always feels like a big question, but how did it, how did it begin for you within the charity sector? Because, you know, one of the things we see consistently with these conversations is that very, very rarely people sort of planned for a career within the sector, and it just came about or they fell into it or it just just just happened. So always interested as to how how it started out for individuals. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, so I consider myself incredibly lucky. I am a late joiner to the charity world. I didn't join until my early 40s and I had a commercial career before then. And I think that gives me some huge advantages in the job I do and how I approach it and the kind of skills I bring to the the board tables that I sit around. And I'm so glad I'm here. I'm so glad I'm here. It's both the hardest and the most fun I've ever had. Hardest job, most fun, most fun on that side of things. So how did I end up in it? I had a call in January of 2019 from a headhunter who was looking for the next director of people for guide dogs. And I said to them at that point, no, no, you don't want me, those aren't skills I've got. Fortunately, by the time they called me back in April, they had neither found anybody else and they'd been through a number of interviews at that point with different people, nor had I kept that mindset. I got more into a growth mindset. I got more into a space of going, actually, what are my values? What am I looking for? And I had some push factors from the job I was in at that point. And I said, yeah, you know what? I was sitting on the balcony of a place we were staying on holiday. It's just like, you know what, let's have a chat. Let's see what's going on. And I was incredibly lucky that Tom Wright, who was the CEO of Guide Dogs at that point, took a chance on somebody who didn't have charity background, but who had all the makings of, who hadn't been a director of people previously, but had had all the makings of. And I was able to bring to bear all of the things that I was loving in the HR leadership pieces and the HR hands-on business partnering jobs that I'd done previously. And at the time, was the point where wellbeing was expanding. Gender pay gap had just come in a couple of years previously. Modern slavery had just come in. So anybody who was in corporate services was thinking about those things. But if you were clever, you were also thinking about employee experience. You were thinking about retention. You were thinking about the culture and how that was going to enable you to deliver on strategy. Adam Stacey: Mm-hmm. Kathryn Ward: And that was what they wanted was somebody who was going to help modernize the then kind of people services team. They were going to think about bringing volunteering and HR, internal employee HR together, think about culture, think about diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership. And I said, okay, I'm going to think about lobbying as well. And he went, if that's what you need to me to sign off on, not that he Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: didn't care. And thank the Lord they did because I started that in the autumn and obviously COVID arrived very early the following year. So it was very timely. Adam Stacey: Yes, that's right. I guess I'm interested a little bit in that initial, know, that initial approach from the recruiter and where you was like, no, that's it's not me. Was that, was that a part of a, I don't know, working in a commercial setting and some expectations of what maybe it was like in the charity world or? Kathryn Ward: No, nothing to do with that. was more about imposter syndrome, I think. They wanted somebody who could lead on redesigning the leadership and thinking about what kind of culture they needed to deliver on the strategy, the rest of the strategy they had at that point, and then take them through into the next strategic cycle. It was a sense that I knew that I was interested in charities. mean, we were just to be clear, was also a voluntary unpaid part of my role was I taken on head of CSR. So all the voluntary work and the kind of charity aligned work for Sotheby's who was working for at that point for the employees. you know, they had and still have a lot of work that they do for charity auctions. There was nothing really going on with the employees and I'd started that. was a great work, a lady called Elise had started in the US. I saw it and went, we should be doing this. You we've got galleries that are empty for months over the summer. We've got staff who really want to see what the impact of art can do out there in the world who care about that. Let's go play with it. You know, let's work with the Custard Trust. Let's work with the art room as they were. They're now part of the place to be. And so it started that kind of conversation. So I knew that charity and charity alignment was really important to me and it was really important to companies as well. So the opportunity of switching over to the other side, that was the thing that I was like, yeah, I could do that. But I doubted myself as being able to tick the boxes. And again, I mean, you know, there is a gendered element to this in terms of it's always the classic thing of a man thinks they can do 60 % of the jobs they'll apply if a woman thinks they can only do 80%, they might go, I might hesitate. And I didn't think... that I had everything, so I wasn't confident in saying let's take the step up to the next level and learn some of these other things. in the end, fortunate, and who knows if I'd applied in January, maybe we would have said, no, you don't have everything and you haven't done this before. By the time they spoke to me in April, they'd spoken to a whole load of people and they clarified what they wanted and who they wanted. And I think they were just ready for somebody who had the right values and the right approach and who could work. with the leadership team on those beds. So yeah, was incredibly lucky. The opportunity to move into a Chief People Officer role, as it then became, from being in HR leadership. I'd never played with risk and compliance, hugely. I'd never led it. I'd never led safeguarding. I'd never led volunteering. And I hadn't been a chief in Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: a charity. And I think they got to the point where they were like, no, this is the right person. She can learn it. I was very lucky, right place, right time, skills. But the values were, the charity piece was never a question. And after Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: that, I started thinking maybe this is where I want to go. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's really, I mean, really interesting reflection. I think helpful Kathryn Ward: and Adam Stacey: for people that are thinking about making that transition, because there is something about the importance placed on that value, the value alignment, obviously transferable Kathryn Ward: Hmm. Yep. Adam Stacey: skills. But if there's that clear value alignment, that's, you know, that's in many ways, it's half the battle, I think, when it comes to recruiting in the charity sector. Kathryn Ward: It is. I mean, if I go back decades, I studied archaeology and I studied history and a lot of medieval history. And you talk about kind of population movement at that point, and you need both a push factor, a pull factor and a vector for the middle. So if you're talking about, you know, Viking or Anglo-Saxon invasions of the UK, you're talking about there are push factors of economic and environmental factors, a lot of second sons, a lot of, you know, there was... there was less for them to be doing and less demand on them and some peace so weren't fewer of being killed. You can go down less. historians are going to sit here and wince because I'm misremembering it and butchering it. But you then want to pull factor as well. And I had the push factors, which had increased. I didn't really like what the the way the CEO was running things, the kind of decisions that were being made, partly because he kept cutting the things that I wanted to do that were slightly outside of core HR. I had a new leader who came in who, she's perfectly good, she was lovely, but she was just less, less what I wanted than the previous leader. And I wanted to step up myself. And then to be in a position where the things that I was going to bring, I was going to work on were exactly where the team. wanted a reliable HR leader who knew what she was talking about, but they had a good head of HR at that point as well, who could look after the BAU while I focused on, let's be a change maker for this piece, this piece and this piece. And it's partly why I described myself as a consultant, a coach and a change maker on my LinkedIn is because I like effecting change and guide dogs wanted change at that point. But I'm also very keen to take people with me. and I think they recognise that in an organisation that is nearly 90 years old at that point, has been around for long time, some of the volunteers have been there for half that, some of the staff have been there for half that, you needed somebody who's going to be thoughtful about how you change, what you change and how you take people with you. So, place, right time and a boss who was willing to take a chance. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's right indeed. Well, an organisation that can see, you know, like say where there's that value alignment and someone that they can invest in to help support, understand the charity sector and to bring those skills from another, obviously from commercial corporate background into the organisation. But yeah, like you say, massive role because it's a household name organisation and you know, not as a... Yeah. Kathryn Ward: I used to collect bottle tops for them when I was a Brownie. I've Adam Stacey: It's true. Yeah. Kathryn Ward: always seen and been around some of these big names in the sector. It's got incredible spontaneous awareness is the official marketing term, but basically it's a household name. It's an icon as well. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Kathryn Ward: The thing I would recognise is that I did have some of the makings for it and I did have some of the jigsaw pieces without even necessarily realising it. I had worked with charities. I was starting to understand what they needed and why they were partnered with organisations. I was thinking about the value of that kind of voluntary work and that kind of outreach work for employees as well. And then I was looking at some of the nuts and bolts which are HR across the board, is well-being, leadership, training your managers so that they can be part of the reason that good HR and good people management happens rather than perhaps HR being fully accountable for that. I had the nuts and bolts of I'd been a business partner for ages, I'd done core management, I'd done all the pay cycles, I'd seen lots of different versions of HR in commercial and I could extrapolate what was going to be good to take with me and what was frankly something that I was going to leave behind and go that's not going to work in a charity setting. So good conversations but also some of the making. So if anybody is in commercial and wants to move across, I think the big things are look at becoming a trustee, even of a tiny charity, make sure you're aware of what voluntary work is and the value of it within your own organisation so that if you go into a volunteer led, volunteer involved in charity that that's part of your thinking already and then make sure your nuts and bolts of HR knowledge and understanding and technical expertise is there. those things will stand you in good stead. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things I quite often talk to candidates who are thinking about making that transition, because even, you know, putting together your CV and having a volunteer section, I think actually, when you apply for something in the charity sector is a really important thing to do to be able to demonstrate, you know, whether it's, you know, from, you know, helping coach the local football team to being a trustee on a, you know, local museum board or whatever it is that you've got to demonstrate that affinity for the sector and that understanding. And I think trusteeship is massive because it gives you that ability to demonstrate working at a strategic level within the sector. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, it also allows you to think about how you work with a board because it's really different. So if you're working with an executive team as an HR leader, you might have a CPO on the board, you might have a COO or a chief of staff that the team reports into. But then you don't tend to know the non-exec board that well. There might be some interaction for a remunerations committee. but it's a really different way of looking at it. Whereas there is a more symbiotic relationship with most trustee boards that I know, even the big charities. I've been incredibly lucky with the kind of trustees that I've worked with. Sir John Rathouse, Emma West, who've been the HR trustees at Guide Dogs over the last couple of years. Incredibly giving of their time and that's something that's expected. So I think the other thing is an attitude that you'll step in. And that's where the volunteering piece comes in. It's more about the attitude. So I am, I mean, you often get the whole thing of, you know, if you want someone to do something, ask a busy person. So was I on the PTA? No, that was the one thing I didn't do. But I've learned how to coach cricket because my daughter was coaching cricket and I saw it was all male coaches and went, you know what, I think this is like, let's get some women in there. I can now bowl really badly, although I have got wickets. And I play a bit of cricket still and now I play with my daughter who I started when she was seven. And now I play with her in the W10s, which is softball cricket, really short, really short things, great fun, really recommend it. I still help organise the hockey. I will admit it was when we'd been drinking on a New Year's Eve, but a friend and I decided to restart the Village Fete. We're a team, we're village of 500 people, 500, 600 people. It's tiny, the point of the fate is to raise enough money to have another fate. We actually have some surplus, but the ability to step in and go, I'm going to do that, stands you really good stead because charities are often really short of staff, really short of ideas, really short of expertise. So if you're going to be a trustee or you want to be an exec in whatever order, the willingness to go, yes, of course I'm going to do that because it's needed, or I know somebody can help us achieve that because it's needed. That's really valuable and that's a great attitude test for anybody entering the sector from commercial is, how much do you just go, that's not my job. And how much do you go, actually let's have a conversation about that, might not be me. Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: But how can I help? Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. And there is something about that. Well, it's aptitude, isn't it? And also attitude as the people that make that transition Kathryn Ward: Mm. Adam Stacey: and transition, you know, to from a commercial world to charity sector and can do it well. Are there things that, as you made that, that change, made that swap, Kathryn Ward: you Adam Stacey: things that helped you in the early days in the role, things that I guess helped you to settle into a new setting? Or did it just, just, did it just feel quite natural quite quickly? Kathryn Ward: So the leadership Adam Stacey: Thank Kathryn Ward: bit felt natural. I really enjoyed that. I really enjoy being part of board conversations, executive and with trustees. And I've actually I've leant into that bit. So the next thing for me will be looking at non-exec roles alongside the two and a half trustee roles that I have. So I currently work with Wessex Archaeology, chair of RemCom and NonCom. work with the charity's HR network so that's very much given back into the sector on a matrix level as well because there are some unique elements that charity has that HR could really do with some kind of peer guidance, peer support, a little bit of purchasing power so I believe in those two. I've also for the last 10-12 years worked with one of the worst colleges, one of the Oxford colleges who've been through a huge transition, they're quite right at the forefront of bringing in more state school students, trying to get more people to think about applying to Oxbridge and being part of that story has been really valuable. But I was part of the first Audit Risk Committee that they ever had, external advisor. And now I just use my expertise in a more formal sense of them. So those bits were natural. think the bits that perhaps were harder were the breadth. and the scope and the amount you have to hold in your head at any one time. As an HR professional, I think it's easier than perhaps other people stepping up into exec roles because you can't mentalise and you Chinese all things anyway. We all know that we have things in our brains that other people can't know about and that need to go through process or they need to go through a system or they need to be individual support. so knowing things that other people didn't know and then having to hold those But that was absolutely fine. So for example, I was working with the CEO, second CEO I worked with for a number of months on a massive restructure and financial kind of rescaling for the organization before we brought anyone else into that because we were thinking about the theories, the kind of principles of design, what are we going to do, how are we going to do it, what are the ambitions we've got for the exec team, how are we going to bring the leadership, how much consultation, what's the timing. how we're to take the board through this, what do we need to prep for that. So were only a handful of other people that knew about that. And yet I had to hold conversations about other things in the light of that and make sure we didn't overcommit on certain things or undercommit and make sure we didn't do anything that was going to be wrong, what we knew we were going to have to move on that we hadn't fully determined yet and scoped. But the breadth of it, there's so many different things that come up. And sometimes you can think about sitting in an exec team and everybody has their silo leadership and that's it. But a really effective leadership team has that enterprise management piece as well. And that's quite a commercial phrase to use for charities. But you're basically T-shaped. So you've got to go in there and you've got to think about being a great leader for your own team and your own segment and to hold the, whether it's the DEI portfolio or the the kind of finance head or the culture piece or whatever it is that you see yourself as being the role model for within that team. Plus your own individual expertise and bring in other people to supplement that. But then you've also got that collective responsibility for, e.g. safeguarding. That in a corporate role you just don't have. is a lot more siloed and a lot less. We are collectively responsible for the success of this organisation. Maybe I've just never worked at that level in corporate. Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Kathryn Ward: The only other thing that really helped me was in the early days when I was, you know, I went for a drink with a friend and clearly my brain was so full that my eyes were popping out my skull. was just like wide-eyed staring off into the distance going... What have I done? What am I doing? And she just gave me the one piece of advice that I've passed on to anyone stepping up or moving across to something totally different, which can be that it can be really, really hard and you can still be doing a good job. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it probably remains like that quite a lot of the time through people's careers, isn't it? that particularly in the sector, I think where, you know, you're always juggling so many different moving pieces with, like you say, at times might feel under resourced or under financed and, and still trying to deliver the best results for, know, whatever the beneficiary is, you know, whatever the cause of the organization, cause the organization is. So yeah, that's a brilliant, brilliant piece of advice for sure. So, so yeah. What about sort of peer to peer support? I'm always interested as to whether there's that, you know, networks that as you, you know, made that transition into the charity sector and get to know people either, you know, in organisations or, you know, different places that, I guess that network of people that you can call upon, I guess have those conversations maybe or bounce ideas around. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, I really value that and I didn't do it enough in my early days. It's one of the reasons why I'm a trustee at Charities HR Network is because I think that is incredibly valuable. But I think there should be a charities, insert word here, network for everybody. I think there should be a charity CEO network and there isn't really one. I think there should be a Charities Trustee Network. I think that would be incredibly powerful. Something that is non-profit there for the benefit of the members. and there to help people both understand what it takes to get into it but also then have the peer-to-peer conversations, the pure data bits that what are you thinking about for cost of living versus progression pay this year? What do you think of this software as opposed to that software? How are you approaching this problem? This law change is coming in, is anybody else thinking about that yet? What are we doing? All of those things are incredibly useful and that's what the charity's actually at my HR network. Therefore, I am incredibly lucky to sit on board. I will say I'm of two people out of five or six of us who are not on the HR most influential list. So Adam Stacey: Yes, right. Kathryn Ward: I clearly have some work to do because I sit alongside Wishrather, I sit alongside Martin Dicker, Michelle Clark, Perry Timms. You know, there are some incredible people in there who have got. such thought leadership but also generosity of spirit and that's the piece again is take into any peer networking relationship or peer to peer conversation a concept of how can I help you? What can I do for you? It's kind of that classic last not what you can do for your country but what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. I truly believe that the best relationships pay you back in many fold when you go into them saying, okay, how can I help? You know, I'm here to advise. I've had the joy of mentoring a whole load of people in the past. I worked with a little charity called, charity, not for profit for sure, called Leaders Plus, who are supporting parents with young children, with young children who want to step up and continue to grow in their careers. And I've had, you know. a couple of mentors within that, some of whom are still working in the charity sector, some of whom have moved on to other things, but Adam Stacey: Mm-hmm. Kathryn Ward: the conversations have always been great. Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: And the ability to support each other in that is fantastic. You need to choose to start with where not only you want the relationships to be, but what the focus is for you. So for people doing Leaders Plus fellowships, they're going, I am struggling with how I marry being a parent of a young child. with still being really dedicated to my career and determined to continue to develop that. Or in my case, I could have done with some really early conversations with fellow directors of people. And partly because I spent six months, first six months getting my feet under the table, working on what am going to do? How am I going to change things? What are the priorities here? How are we going to achieve that? And then COVID came. Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: And so we went super insular. We start, you know, we had to be very thoughtful about what we were doing with our people. with our services. We couldn't even breed guide dogs at one point, it got to the point and that had a knock-on Adam Stacey: Yeah. Kathryn Ward: effect on supply, on how we delivered services years later. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Kathryn Ward: But you're right, peer-to-peer networking, absolutely superb. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Kathryn Ward: And what I would love to do is see, you know, there is the Charities Finance Network, which Sarah Lomax is one of the co-CEOs for, she's fab. I think anybody should be thinking about, what is the charities network for what I do? And if there isn't one, how can I get involved in one? And if Adam Stacey: Yeah. Kathryn Ward: that's something they feel they know really well, and it's actually... How do I as an individual make this work for me? What are my values? What do I care most about? How do I lead? Go get coaching. Go talk to somebody about that. Go and do some courses. Network in that way and find the right person for you to give you that sounding board. So you've got some little bit of external sanity and clarity and space to make Adam Stacey: Yeah, I'm staying. Kathryn Ward: sure you're doing the right things and the right things in the right order. Adam Stacey: Yeah, I think it's one of the real strengths of the charity network, know, charity sector is that people are willing to help and support to support others. yeah, quite often you've got to ask. But people are quite open, quite open, quite open to that, for sure. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, absolutely. Adam Stacey: So yeah, that working together. So that's really, really helpful. obviously, time at Guide Dogs. What came next for you? Kathryn Ward: So I got to the point after six years where we were always coming out of one big cycle, but I'd already Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: been through that previously. So we did a massive restructuring, rescaling, resizing, pivot to look at certain priorities. It was great. I re-recruited the entire executive team and been part of that process over the course of six years. I had two CEOs. And I was the longest standing exec member on the board at that point. I also had my youngest child who's got autism, was starting secondary school, we weren't sure how that was going to go. And we had kind of almost a gap of 12 to 18 months where the people projects weren't going to be the primary projects, they were going to be kind of secondary or can we wait because we need to get fundraising marketing really working together or so on. And that was right. But it was very annoying for me, but it was right. So there was almost a hiatus where it was going to be the right thing from a talent management point of view to say somebody could come in and learn this job and do it for a year and then have all the complex projects come back and go, well, now you need to lead something alongside the day job. So wonderfully, they then found Siobhan who came in and I think we had about a week's handover, possibly even less than that. But I was still writing board papers till 6pm on my final night. Adam Stacey: Yes, yes. Kathryn Ward: So the commitment was still there, love them to bits, will always support them. I'd done volunteering all the way through, saw the guide dog last weekend actually, still was a successful guide dog candidate. And then I took a little bit of time out, so spent most of rest of the year just accepting invitations to things that I could never have had time for previously. Got my son settled into secondary, he's doing really, really well. spent some time just sitting still after six years of sprinting, sitting still. Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: And at the start of the year, I then sat at my desk and went, what do I want to do? And I have created a consultancy that has space for all sorts of different things. I'm declining the LinkedIn opportunity to be just one thing to one group of people. So I am a consultant for charities, charity execs and boards. wanting to define and deliver on their strategy through people projects. And they may not know it's the people side of things, so I've helped facilitate new five-year strategy sessions with trustees. I've helped organisations to think about how they deliver on a decision to close in two, three years' time so that there's a charity I'm helping who are a spend-out fund. Literally, they've got a certain amount of money that's been given to them, and their strategy is to spend that and spend it to the best effect. But of course that has an impact on the people. And then a couple that have got huge growth plans, a couple that have just got individual kind of, okay, how do we actually make this work? So some almost project-based, some fractional work with small to mid-sized charities, bringing in my commercial and charity experience to bear. Adam Stacey: Yeah, honestly. Kathryn Ward: And then I'm qualifying as an ICF coach. So Adam Stacey: Yeah, okay. Kathryn Ward: that will happen this autumn. I've done quite lot of work on burnout and trauma informed coaching within that. I believe that's hugely important for the charity sector as well because people self actualise so much. So, sorry, technical term, you end up associating yourself so strongly with the cause that it almost becomes morally injurious when things don't go to plan or when Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: somebody says, OK, we need to move the cheese around and move the deck chairs and move this and change things. You see so many people in charity not necessarily being great with change because there is a sense you have to spend every penny well. So if you haven't, if you've got to change surely that means you haven't been doing it right. Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Kathryn Ward: And there's a lot of leaders who will go above and beyond with less resources as we've discussed. And that can stretch people. And when you associate with a cause, you've got another reason to go, well, it's incredibly important that we cure cancer, help children, support people coming out of care, think about poverty and the impact on that in the rest of the world, raise money to help parents who've been bereaved or children who've lost their families. There's so many things out there. And that's before you get into kind of the social pieces of disability and inclusion which is where I was working, it is really really hard. So short story, Zephyr People was born at the start of the year, that's basically me. I do Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: some associate work with a couple of other organisations and I'm delighted at the moment to have stepped in as a short-term interim Director of People and Culture for Prostate Cancer UK. somebody unfortunately is, their normal leader, their substantive leader is ill. and they needed somebody who could step in care take, but also move things forward. Adam Stacey: Yeah, Yes. Kathryn Ward: And they have a new 10 year strategy coming in. They've got a fabulous people and culture team, but they've had quite a lot of sickness and some gaps Adam Stacey: . Kathryn Ward: in the team over the last six months. So it's a lovely challenge, short term, part time, help them out, but also continue with the coaching, supporting individuals in those threshold moments. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Kathryn Ward: see you lots of different things and I refuse to be one thing. I decline the invitation on LinkedIn to post about only one thing and get my brand up. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's exciting. clearly there's opportunities there for a whole range of different projects and bringing your experience and skill set. So we'll make sure obviously, you know, people that listen to the part, we'll make sure that you're tanked up as well so that they can come Kathryn Ward: Excellent. Adam Stacey: and find you and yeah. Kathryn Ward: Katherine Ward with the slight unusual K-A-T-H-R-Y-N is the weird spelling on Katherine, but Katherine Ward on LinkedIn and there aren't many of us. We're very welcome to connect, very happy to chat with anybody. Adam Stacey: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. As you reflect on your career to date and I Kathryn Ward: . Adam Stacey: guess all the things that you've gone through, there something that you've learned the hard way that's helped shape who you are as a leader today, do think? Kathryn Ward: That's such a good question. I think there's been moments where I felt very lonely, either in a team, so at the start of my career, I was in a startup, some really great people in there, but also some people I just didn't get on with. They didn't, for whatever reason, didn't feel like I was one of them. And I'm always trying to notice whether somebody is noisy because they need support or noisy because they're enthusiastic or quiet because they're reflective or quiet because they are not confident in their voice being heard. We just had the interim presentations from the summer at Prostate Council UK yesterday. And what I found wonderful was how many people had confidence in them having something to say. So whether they were a second year student or had graduated, they all felt confident that we wanted to hear what they were saying. Now, that's partly the prostate cancer UK culture and how the team worked with the interns. But I think it can be really hard for people to know that their voice is going to be valued. And the diversity of thinking doesn't come through unless people can. can talk. So as a leader it is incumbent on me to make space for contributions from people whether they are introvert or extrovert, junior or senior and in the right way and appropriate ways the most valuable relationships I had in Guide Dogs were with my staff reps. I'm still in touch with many of them in a way that actually I'm not in touch as much with some of the senior leaders that I worked with. They were a joy to work with, were a joy to see develop, they were an absolute pleasure to watch some of them go from very siloed thinking and understanding of their own world to thinking about the organisation and what it meant to contribute to the success of that. And to be able to help them understand that change wasn't a dirty word, we're going on an occasion and we're going to talk about change today. We're talk about pay change. Adam Stacey: Yes. Kathryn Ward: And they go, for God's sake, stop doing that to us. But it was a lovely way of saying to them, change is normal. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. Sometimes you get pay rise, sometimes you, you know, we can't afford it. But there was a, there was such a symbiotic relationship by the end of it that allowed us to take the temperature of the organization, use them in the purpose they're meant to be doing, but also develop these people in a way that they started thinking much bigger picture about the whole organization and the holistic business. dynamics that were going on that meant that we stopped talking about whether we had sun cream in offices and we started talking about a change methodology. Really different, really different levels. So yes, I think that early understanding that you're not everyone's person and that everybody Adam Stacey: Hmm. Kathryn Ward: has a different style means that I lead in a way that I try to make it very inclusive and to know that that is also because it is best for the organisation. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. That's really, really helpful insight. And Catherine, so incredibly grateful for you coming on to the podcast. These conversations seem to fly by before we've unpicked everything. And I'm sure we could have spoken for much longer, but so grateful for your time. Like I say, we'll make sure that you're tagged on LinkedIn and people want to Kathryn Ward: Thank you. Adam Stacey: be in touch and reach out. yeah, Kathryn Ward: Absolutely. Adam Stacey: really look forward seeing how the consultancy and the interim projects continue to develop. and go for you. Kathryn Ward: It's been an absolute pleasure and I would encourage anybody who's in the commercial sector to look at either jumping into a trustee role or to think about moving across to, is it the dark side or the light side? don't know. But it's it's certainly, Adam Stacey: Yes, that's right indeed. They can work that out themselves. Kathryn Ward: yeah, exactly, once you're here, you'll never leave. But it is certainly the most satisfying set of work that I've ever done. And I'm just so glad that I have the skills in the right time at the right place to be able to do it. Adam Stacey: Yes, no, that's brilliant. yeah, brilliant advice. So yeah, really grateful. I'm sure it's been really insightful for people that are considering considering that move and for those that are working in the sector as well. So yeah, thank you for coming on. Kathryn Ward: Yeah, and if anybody wants a random fun historical fact, just tap me up on LinkedIn. Adam Stacey: Yes, excellent. We'll make sure the tanks then come and do that. Catherine, thanks again. And yeah, I forward to Kathryn Ward: Thanks, Adam. Adam Stacey: speaking soon.