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The Passionate Pursuit of Revival: Martyrn Lloyd-Jones | John Piper · Reformed Thinking

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Welcome to Reformed Thinking and to the Deep Dive.
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We take stacks of information, unpack them, and give you the
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understanding you need quickly and thoroughly.
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Today we're diving into the thinking of, well, a real giant
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in Protestant Christian thought. You asked us to look into
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revival and the Holy Spirit as Martyn Lloyd Jones understood
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them, the doctor, as many called him.
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It's a topic that touches on God's actions, spiritual
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experience, really the whole health of the church.
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It really does. We've gathered quite a bit,
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excerpts from his writings, bits about his life to give us a good
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look at him and how he thought. Our aim today is to clarify his
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specific theological points, see how they differ from other
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views, and maybe think about what they mean for us.
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We'll look at what he taught, why he taught it, and even, you
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know, how his own ministry practices lined up with his
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preaching. OK, quite a task.
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Let's unpack this, starting with the man himself.
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It feels right to begin there. Martyn Lloyd Jones, born in
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Wales, 1899. But he didn't start out as a
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preacher, did he? He was a medical doctor first.
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Tell us about that journey. Yeah, it's quite a start, and it
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says a lot about his mind. He moved to London when he was
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just 14. Big move from Wales, went to
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medical school at Saint Bartholomew's, the top place.
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Got his MD in 1921. And he wasn't just any doctor.
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He became chief clinical assistant, Sir Thomas Hoarder.
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Hoarder was a big name physician to royalty even, and Hoarder
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said Lloyd Jones was the most acute thinker that I ever knew.
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That's high praise. Wow, from someone like Hoarder.
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So clearly a sharp analytical mind set for a big career in
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medicine. What changed?
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What prompted such as well fundamental shift?
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Well, somewhere between 1921 and 1923, he went through a really
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significant conversion experience.
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It wasn't just intellectual agreement, it was something that
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really hit him hard spiritually, changed everything for him.
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It gave him this incredibly strong desire to preach, a
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desire that, as the sources say, completely overshadowed his
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medical calling. He felt this pull, this divine
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call almost to go back to Wales and preach, delivered his first
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sermon there in April 1925. So it wasn't like a gradual
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career change. It was radical, driven by this
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powerful spiritual encounter. And from that very first sermon,
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was there a core message, a central theme that he sounded
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right from the beginning and kept coming back to?
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Absolutely. From day one really, and all
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through his ministry, his main point was clear.
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Wales, and by extension the whole world, didn't just need
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social programs or political fixes.
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What it needed more than anything was a great spiritual
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awakening. This deep longing for revival,
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for genuine spirit, filled life in the church.
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That was his constant focus. It shaped everything.
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He married Bathan Phillips in 1927.
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She'd also been a medical student, interestingly.
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Then he moved to a really prominent pulpit in London.
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How did that come about? What was his ministry like
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there? Right.
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So after starting in Sandfield's Aberavon, his preaching started
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getting noticed. Then in 1937, G Campbell Morgan,
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a major figure at Westminster Chapel in London, heard him
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preach in Philadelphia. Morgan was so impressed he
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wanted Lloyd Jones as his associate.
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Now Lloyd Jones almost took a call of presidency.
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Back in Wales he was turned down, apparently because his
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main supporter missed a train. Lloyd Jones called it a
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so-called accident, seeing it as God's Providence, you know,
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guiding him. So after that he accepted the
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position at Westminster Chapel. And he stayed there for 29
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years, became the sole preacher from 1943 until he retired in
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68, almost 3 decades. That's a long time in one place,
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especially such a visible one. What was his style like?
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What impact did he have week after week?
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He had this really unique blend. People described it as having
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Khalsen's love for truth and sound reform doctrine, but
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combined with the fire and passion of the 18th century
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Methodist revival that wasn't a common mix back then.
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His sermons? Crystal clear, doctrinally
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solid, logically built, but also described as being on fire.
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He just wore a simple black Geneva gown.
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No gimmicks, no jokes. And yet he held these huge
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audiences. Thousands were coming by 1947.
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They weren't drawn by flashiness, but by the sheer
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weight and intensity of his vision of truth, the substance.
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Pull them in. Ji Packer, another well known
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theologian, hurt him in the late 40s.
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Packer said his preaching had the force of electric shock.
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You need more of a sense of God than any other man.
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That's an incredible thing to say about a preacher.
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An electric shock. What was that about?
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What created that sense? Well, the sources suggest it was
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a combination of things. His medical training meant his
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logic was rigorous, hard to argue with.
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But crucially, that intellectual clarity was paired with this
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deep spiritual conviction. He really believed he was
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speaking God's words. So the delivery was intensely
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serious, intensely earnest. People often talked about
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feeling God's presence very strongly when he preached, like
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God was speaking directly to them.
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So that electric shock, it wasn't just intellectual, it was
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spiritual, a feeling of God being near, making himself
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known. It changed lives.
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Right. So from that medical background,
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that intense call to preach, he dedicated his life to seeking,
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as he put it, depth in biblical doctrine and depth in vital
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spiritual experience, Light and heat, logic and fire, Word and
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Spirit. He saw the world as desperate
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and the Church, well, he felt it was failing lamentably lacking
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the necessary authority and validation.
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Yeah, he saw the Church kind of caught between 2 problems, 2
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extremes that were hindering real spiritual life.
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On one side you had what he called dead.
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Formal institutional intellectualism.
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Doctrine was there, but it felt dry, disconnected from
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experience. Light without heat, you could
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say. On the other side he saw
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superficial, glib, entertainment oriented, man centered
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emotionalism, maybe some excitement but lacking depth,
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lacking biblical roots. Heat without light.
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And for Lloyd Jones the only real answer to that whole
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situation for the world and the struggling church was a God
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centered revival. Nothing else would do.
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OK, so if he's rejecting both dry intellectualism and shallow
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emotionalism, what did he mean by revival?
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How did he define that term and why does he think that
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understanding was basically lost?
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He was very, very specific about it.
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He called revival a miracle, something that can only be
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explained as the direct intervention of God, and he drew
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a really sharp line. He said men can produce
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evangelistic campaigns, but they cannot and never have produced a
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revival. So for him, revival wasn't
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something humans could organize or manufacture.
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It was purely an act of God's sovereign initiative, a divine
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visitation. That's a really stark contrast
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to just say, successful evangelism or church growth
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programs. Why was that distinct so
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critical for him? What difference did it make?
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Oh, it was foundational because it dictated the church's whole
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posture, insisting it was God's act alone, kept human pride in
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check, avoided manipulation, stop people relying on, you
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know, human cleverness or techniques.
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It meant the church's focus shouldn't be on producing
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results, but on desperate, humble prayer seeking God's
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face. It shifted the whole mindset
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from human effort to relying completely on God.
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And he felt that specific understanding had faded away.
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He really did. He lamented it deeply.
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By 1959, he felt that this historical view of revival as a
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sovereign outpouring of the Holy Spirit, a direct visitation, had
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mostly disappeared from evangelical thinking.
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And he thought the main theological reason for this was
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the common view that the Holy Spirit was given once for all at
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Pentecost. And so every believer
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automatically has the Spirit at conversion.
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If that's true, the logic went, then praying for some further
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special outcouring for revival seemed, well, unnecessary.
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Or even wrong. Like asking for something you
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already had. Right.
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So that leads us straight into his views on the Holy Spirit's
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work, specifically the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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This is a point where he really differed from many evangelicals,
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wasn't it? How did he understand it and how
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did it differ from Regeneration being born again?
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Yes, this is absolutely central to his thinking and where he
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parted ways with a lot of common evangelical teaching, especially
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within some Reformed circles of his time.
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He strongly pushed back against the idea that the baptism of the
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Spirit mentioned in Acts 2 and 1st Corinthians 12.13 two is
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exactly the same thing as regeneration or conversion.
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The common view was you become a Christian, you automatically get
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the Spirit, maybe unconsciously, and that is being baptized into
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Christ's body. Full stop.
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Nothing more to seek in that specific way.
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But Lloyd Jones didn't see it as a one time automatic, maybe even
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unconscious event tied only to conversion.
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No, definitely not. He stated it very clearly.
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You can be a believer that you can have the Holy Spirit
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dwelling in you and still not be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
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He argued that this baptism with the Spirit is a distinct act,
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something done by the Lord Jesus Christ separate from becoming a
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Christian, separate from regeneration itself.
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He felt that equating it with regeneration made the baptism
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non experimental and unconscious, and he thought that
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flatly contradicted the New Testament accounts which often
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describe very tangible, powerful experiences.
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He believed that view actually ended up quenching the Spirit,
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discouraging people from seeking A deeper felt experience of
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God's presence. For him.
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The experiences and acts were obviously experimental.
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People knew something had happened.
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That's quite a claim that a common view might actually be
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hindering A vital spiritual experience.
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So if this baptism is distinct and experiential, what does it
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actually do? What are the effects?
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What does someone experience? OK, so for Lloyd Jones, this
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baptism brings what he called exceptional assurance or unusual
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assurance of salvation. He was careful to say this was
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different from the sort of ordinary assurance A believer
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might have. It brings a sense of the power
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and presence of God that they have never known before.
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And crucially, an overwhelming knowledge of God's love to you
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and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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It's like a fresh, direct awareness of God and experience
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of his love, not just knowing about it.
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It does sound like something quite well noticeable beyond the
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everyday Christian walk, perhaps.
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Very much so. He described it as experiential,
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undeniable, immediate. It results in this overwhelming
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joy. And he believed this joy was so
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real, so visible, that the outside world would have to take
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notice. He said something like the world
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won't pay much attention to our organized efforts, but it will
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pay attention to a group of people filled with the spirit of
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rejoicing. This experience, he argued,
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makes people compelling witnesses.
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They speak about what they've actually seen and heard, and it
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arrests people's attention. He used that illustration from
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Thomas Goodwin, the Puritan, about a child who knows his
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father loves him but then gets this extra warm embrace.
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It's not new love, but a new undeniable experience of that
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love. That's kind of how he saw this
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baptism. And how did this individual
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experience his baptism connect to the larger idea of revival
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for him? It was a very direct link.
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He basically defined revival as a large number, a group of
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people being baptized by the Holy Spirit at the same time, or
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the Spirit falling upon a number of people assembled together.
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The only difference, he said, was the scale.
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Revival is simply the same dynamic baptism happening
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collectively, sweeping through community or church, bringing
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that same sense of God's presence, joy and assurance on a
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wide scale. You mentioned earlier he saw the
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world as desperate and the church as failing, lamentably
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lacking authority. What was the core of this need
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he perceived? Why did things seem so dire to
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him? Well, he saw beyond just
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materialism and indifference. He even talked about a
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resurgence of darker spiritual things like black magic and
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devil worship. So he felt the church needed
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much more than just correct doctrine, though he insisted on
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that or standard outreach methods, and needed a power
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demonstration, a clear, undeniable display of God's
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reality to breakthrough to a hardened world.
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It was about God making himself known in a compelling way.
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So not just about getting more converts through regular means,
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but about a genuine display of God's presence that would
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actually stop people in their tracks, make them look up.
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That's exactly, he argued, the need of the hour was for
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something stunning. Now he didn't dismiss the
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regular work, the preaching, teaching, caring, seeing
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individuals converted. That was vital, but he felt the
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situation was just much too great for that alone.
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What was needed was some mighty demonstration of the power of
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God that will compel people to pay attention.
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And he added that powerful line. When God acts, He can do more in
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a minute than man, with his organizing, can do in 50 years.
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It really shows his conviction that human efforts, however
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sincere, couldn't compare to a sovereign move of God.
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That paints a very stark picture.
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He truly believed the church needed God to intervene
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dramatically. He really did.
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He saw it as the only way for the gospel to regain its
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authentic impact in a world that was increasingly tuning it out.
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His longing wasn't just for numbers, but for a genuine
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spiritual breakthrough authenticated by God himself.
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When you talk about a power demonstration, that immediately
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brings up spiritual gifts, especially the more, shall we
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say, extraordinary ones. Where did Lloyd Jones stand on
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things like healing, miracles, prophecy?
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Did he see those as part of the picture for the modern?
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Church, absolutely. He affirmed that these
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extraordinary spiritual gifts were a direct result of the
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baptism with the Spirit, and he saw them as a part of the
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authenticating work of revival. They provided, in his view, a
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supernatural authentication for the gospel message, just like
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they did in the New Testament. He believed they could capture
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attention, breakdown cynicism, and point people towards Christ.
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They weren't just historical artifacts for him.
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OK, that leads to a really key question, especially given the
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theological climate he was in. Was he a cessationist?
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Did you believe those miraculous gifts stopped with the apostles?
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No, he strongly rejected cessationism.
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He particularly took issue with what he called the Warfield
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kind, referring to BB Warfield's view that sign gifts were
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specifically tied to the apostles to authenticate them
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and ceased thereafter. Lloyd Jones said it was quite
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without spiritual warrant to claim all these gifts ended
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then. He believed undoubted miracles
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had happened throughout church history and argued the Bible
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itself. Never anywhere says that these
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things were only temporary. He saw cessationism as based
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more on assumptions and arguments from silence than on
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clear scripture, and thought it risked quenching the Spirit.
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And he pointed to historical examples.
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Back this up didn't. He Yes, he did.
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He'd bring up figures like John Welsh, John Knox's son-in-law
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reportedly raising someone from the Fed, or Alexander Peden, a
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Scottish covenanter apparently giving accurate prophecies for
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Lloyd Jones. These accounts weren't just
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quaint stories. They were evidence that God
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continued to work in these ways long after the 1st century.
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They showed the gifts persisted. And he himself reported some
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unusual experiences, didn't he? Things that seemed like direct
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spiritual intervention or guidance.
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Yes, he did share some personal accounts.
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He spoke of times preaching at Westminster when there was this
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almost physically tangible sense of God's presence.
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One person described feeling like a hand were pushing me
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through the Pew. Another time, the whole
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congregation sat in absolute silence for nearly 10 minutes
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after he finished, just overwhelmed by the sense of
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God's presence. He also told a story from his
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earlier ministry about a former spirit medium who came to his
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church. She said she felt a supernatural
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manifestation there, similar to Spiritist meetings.
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But this one felt clean, pointing to its divine source,
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and he mentioned having prophetic premonitions himself,
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like a sudden strong conviction about a friend's recovery from
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illness before it was medically confirmed.
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He really believed believers could and should expect leadings
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and guidance from the Spirit, and that denying this
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possibility was again potentially quenching the
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Spirit. So given all this, his belief in
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the Spirit's baptism is a distinct experience, His
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rejection of his personal experiences.
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You might think he'd fit right into the modern charismatic
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movement. But he also had criticisms,
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didn't he? What were his concerns?
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Right. It's important to understand
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that distinction. He wasn't just, you know, a
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closet charismatic. He had very specific concerns
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and boundaries. His biggest one was that genuine
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revival. Any true work of the spirit must
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have a sound doctrinal basis. He worried that some charismatic
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movements downplayed doctrine, and he saw that as dangerous,
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leading to shallow or even false experiences.
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The Spirit is the spirit of truth, after all.
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Experience couldn't trump sound teaching for him.
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OK, but doctrine was primary. What other concerns did he raise
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about what he was seeing? Well, he felt some groups put
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too much emphasis on what people could do, like trying to conjure
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up gifts. Rather than stressing the
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freedom and sovereignty of the Spirit who gives gifts as he
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wills, He believed gifts were sovereignly given, not produced
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on demand. He specifically rejected the
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idea that speaking in tongues was the necessary sign of being
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baptized in the Spirit. Scripture didn't teach that, he
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argued, and he questioned the idea you could just speak in
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tongues whenever you wanted, pointing to Paul saying he spoke
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in tongues more than you, all implying it wasn't always under
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Paul's conscious control. So the experience shouldn't be
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sought just for the feeling or as proof or something, but for a
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higher. Purpose, exactly.
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He warned against seeking experiences just for the
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sensation. The real goal, he insisted, was
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empowerment for witness and for the glory of Christ.
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He gave that key test from John 16.14.
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He'll glorify me. Does the experience, Does the
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gift being manifested ultimately point people to Jesus Christ and
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exalt him? If not, he'd question its
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origin. He also made the point that
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having powerful gifts doesn't automatically mean someone is
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morally mature or sanctified. The baptism was primarily about
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endowment with spiritual ability for witness, while
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sanctification becoming more Christ like is a separate,
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ongoing process. And finally, he cautioned
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against relying too much on subjective feelings over solid
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biblical teaching and against losing rational control.
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He believed you could be deeply moved by the Spirit and still be
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fully in control, always testing things by Scripture.
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Now on the other side, he didn't just critique the charismatics,
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he also had strong words for what he called spirit quenching
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formalists. What did he mean there?
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Who's he warning? He was warning those who might
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quench the spirit through fear of the unusual or supernatural,
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people who are maybe overly concerned with discipline and
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decorum and control in church life, to the point where it
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stifled any sense of spontaneity or manifest spiritual life.
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He even said something quite provocative.
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It is better to be too credulous than to be carnal and to be smug
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and dead. His point being an overly
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cautious, skeptical attitude could be more spiritually
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damaging than being perhaps a bit too open.
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Better erring on the side of openness than shutting the
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spirit down. And he linked this to
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institutionalization too, didn't he, believing that rigid church
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structures could actually prevent the Spirit from moving
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freely. Yes, that was a significant
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insight. He argued that when church has
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become too rigid, too focused on human structures and control,
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they can inadvertently quench the Spirit.
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It wasn't that humans could stop God entirely, but they could
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certainly act in ways that usually keep him from coming.
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Things like spiritual fear, rigid formality, relying solely
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on human plans, these could create an atmosphere where
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manifestations of the Spirit were well nigh impossible.
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The Spirit needs freedom, he believed.
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OK, so if humans can't produce revival, but they can hinder or
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quench the Spirit, what was his advice?
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How should believers actually seek this baptism of the Spirit?
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Seek revival. His core advice was centered on
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prayer, but prayer born out of a recognition of God's
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sovereignty. He said you cannot do anything
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about being baptized with the Spirit except to ask for it.
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You cannot do anything to produce it.
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But he immediately followed that by stressing the need to labor
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in prayer to attain it, to be persistent, fervent and patient,
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not trying to dictate terms to God.
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He really admired DL Moody's constant prayer.
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Oh God, prepare my heart and baptize me with the Holy Ghost
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power. That kind of earnest dependence
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seeking was key. Beyond that fervent prayer, were
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there other things, other ways to prepare or contribute to an
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environment where the Spirit might move?
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What did a prepared heart involve?
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Yes, while acknowledging God's freedom, he did believe human
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factors mattered. A prepared heart was vital, and
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that heart gets prepared through the regular means of grace.
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Things like meditating deeply on scripture, letting it soak in,
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receiving encouragement and challenge from other believers,
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and really importantly, the mortification of sin.
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Actively dealing with sin in your life, not just ignoring it.
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Unconfessed sin could be a real blockage, he thought.
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He also warned against that barren institutionalization.
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We mentioned churches becoming too rigid or self reliant.
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And personally avoiding things like fear of the supernatural or
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even an aversion to emotive music if it hindered genuine
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spiritual expression. These things could also quench
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the spirit's freedom. Interestingly, he seemed OK with
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reading books that stirred emotion, but more wary of music
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doing it in public worship. That leads to a really
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interesting, maybe even difficult question the sources
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bring up. Did Lloyd Jones himself, in his
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own ministry, fully practice what he preached about creating
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an environment open to the spirits manifestations,
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particularly Westminster Chapel? Yes, that's a really important
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point for reflection and it does highlight a potential tension.
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While he preached so passionately about needing these
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sovereign outpourings, questions are raised about the actual
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environment at Westminster. His biographer mentions the
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congregation often being quite formal and anonymous group of
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listeners where people didn't typically interact much.
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That doesn't immediately sound like a context designed for,
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say, the spontaneous sharing of spiritual gifts described in
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First Corinthians. So maybe not much emphasis on
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smaller groups or structures specifically designed for people
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to minister to each other using spiritual gifts.
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Well, the sources do question if he implemented significant
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changes that gave any real open context for the exercise of the
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spiritual gifts across the congregation, or actively build
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up small group networks for that kind of mutual ministry.
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And that comment he made? I never trained a single convert
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how to approach others, but they did.
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So while perhaps intending to highlight the spirits work could
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also suggest a certain lack of hands on mentoring and actively
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using spiritual gifts or participating in ministry.
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The implication is that perhaps it's very strong warnings
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against charismatic excesses might have unintentionally made
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ordinary folks hesitant to step out or expect such experiences
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themselves. What about his views on emotion
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and music and worship? Did his personal preferences
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maybe hinder the kind of joyful expression he himself said was
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so attractive to the outside world?
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That's another area where there seems to be some tension.
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He had this special dislike for certain kinds of emotive music,
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feeling it could manipulate feelings.
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He thought singing and preliminaries aimed at working
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up emotions were unnecessary helps for the Spirit.
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The Spirit doesn't need our help, was his view.
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But this rather austere and suspicious attitude toward
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emotion, and the music that may evoke it, might well have
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unintentionally inhibited the congregation from freely
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expressing the kind of overwhelming joy he associated
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with the Spirit's baptism. It's a bit paradoxical, as you
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noted, given his allowance for emotions stirred by books in
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private. And the prayer aspect, given his
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stress on laboring in prayer for revival, did he actively foster
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large scale corporate prayer movements for it?
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Well, despite emphasizing prayer is the main thing believers can
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do, his biography notes an instance in 1959 where he
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apparently didn't support calls for all night prayer meetings
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aimed specifically at seeking revival.
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Now, he certainly prayed extensively himself and with
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individuals. But this this incident raises a
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question about whether he fully encouraged or organized the kind
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of widespread, sustained corporate laboring and prayer
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for revival that his theology seemed to call for, at least
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within his own church context. And finally, there's that
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tension with First Corinthians 14.1 about desiring spiritual
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gifts. How did his teaching square with
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that specific instruction? Yes, this is a key point noted
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in the sources Lloyd Jones that often taught that believer
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shouldn't actively seek phenomena and strange
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experiences. He said we should seek God's
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glory and power and leave the specific manifestations entirely
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up to the Spirit. But that stance does seem to sit
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uneasily alongside Paul's explicit command in First
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Corinthians 14.1 to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts,
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especially prophecy. So the question arises, could
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his caution against seeking phenomena have inadvertently
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discouraged the very desiring of gifts that Paul commands?
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Could it have subtly quenched the potential for those power
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manifestations? He himself said we're so
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valuable for authenticating the gospel.
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It's a complex balance between trusting God's sovereignty and
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obeying the command to desire his gifts.
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It really is a fascinating point to consider, especially for a
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leader who himself clearly longed for God's manifest
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presence and power so deeply. It shows how complex applying
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these deep convictions can be. It really is fascinating how
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Lloyd Jones, coming from such a strong, Reformed, doctrinally
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rigorous background, developed this very specific and urgent
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vision for revival and the Spirit's baptism.
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He was always striving for that balanced light and heat, Word
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and Spirit, pushing back against dead orthodoxy on one side and
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superficial emotionalism on the other, always calling for a
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genuine God initiated work that would authenticate the gospel
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and change lives. His distinctions were careful,
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trying to navigate the theological landscape of his
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time. His core desire was for God to
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truly show up. So thinking about all this, what
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does it mean for you, the listener, in your own context
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today? Lloyd Jones's own story
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physician to preach her, his insistence on a felt post
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conversion experience of the Spirit, bringing assurance and
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joy, his vision for God, authenticating the gospel.
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It all challenges us, doesn't it?
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It pushes us to think about the depth of our own faith, our own
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understanding and experience of God's active presence.
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Yeah, and if you look at the bigger picture, his life and
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teaching really prompt us to examine how open we are to God
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acting in ways that might be surprising, ways that are
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outside our normal routines or expectations.
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He reminds us that while we can't force God's hand, our
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attitudes, our church structures, our personal habits,
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they can either create a welcoming space for the spirits,
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manifest presence, or maybe, without us even realizing it,
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hinder it. It's definitely a call for some
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honest reflection. Which leads to a final question
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for you to think about. In what ways might we in our own
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churches, our traditions, even our personal spiritual lives, be
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unintentionally putting up barriers?
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Might we be hindering the kind of divine intervention that
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Lloyd Jones prayed for so passionately?
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Are we truly, earnestly desiring all that God wants to give,
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expecting Him to act? Or have we perhaps subtly put
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limits on His freedom and His working among us?
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Thank you for joining us for this deep dive into the thought
26:12
of Martyn Lloyd Jones. Until next time, keep digging
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deeper, keep seeking to be well informed, and stay open to God's
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work.