Latest / No Mess, No Magic / The Mindset Shifts That Help You Finish Your First Book
Transcript
- Monica Hay: hello and welcome back to the Mess, No Magic podcast with Today I have Rhonda Douglas and I'm fucking thrilled have this conversation. Rhonda is a colleague of mine who I've been working, ⁓ around for, it's been many years now, hasn't it? Yeah, it's been, it must be five years at least we've known each other. It's been five years? Oh my goodness, I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's, that's crazy. So Rhonda is an award winning author of fiction and poetry. She's the host of the resilient writers radio show and the founder of the first book finish program. Rhonda Douglas: Yeah, it's been, must be five years at least we've known each other. Yeah. Yeah, it was 22. So how many years is that? Six, so it's four. It's four anyway. Yeah. Monica Hay: So welcome Rhonda, I'm really thrilled to have you here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so I wanted to talk about mindset shifts for writing a first book because you do such good work here with your First Book Finish program. ⁓ The fact that you serve a lot of people, you serve women and non-binary folks, right? That's your people. I want to first ask you, Rhonda Douglas: Thanks. Thanks for having me. good. Mm. Monica Hay: And this might be like a big question, so bear with me. When start working with somebody who's writing their first book, what is the biggest identity shift ⁓ has to make from going ⁓ like, want to write a book to actually, I'm a writer. What do feel like that looks like with your clients? Rhonda Douglas: I experience people coming to me often. It's not exclusively this, but often I get people. So I tend to work a lot with people in their, I would say late thirties, forties, fifties and older. And I sometimes experience people coming to me feeling like they don't have permission to own their own creative dreams, you know? And I think this is a culture that devalues art. Monica Hay: Mm. Rhonda Douglas: And so feel like it's selfish to want to write a book. I should be earning a living. should be, you know, for women, I should be nurturing my family. I actually had a woman say to me once, well, you know, I meant to write last week, but my husband had a really busy. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Rhonda Douglas: week at work and it was like, I don't understand what your husband's busy week has to do with you. But that's kind of how things, you know, happen sometimes. And so, ⁓ Monica Hay: Mm. Mm-hmm. Rhonda Douglas: It's about owning your own creative dream. It's about deciding that I have the right to, I'm not just here to like wash the dishes, pay bills and die. Like I the right to own my own creative dreams. And for some people that is harder than for other people. I think the younger you are, the easier it is to kind of own it. But if you're, you know, of a generation that was really, you know, more taught that the role Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: of a woman is to support her family. And their return to that, right? Like the whole tradwife thing in the United States in particular. ⁓ And so, you know, people coming from that background can sometimes struggle to own what it is they want to do. So that's the first thing I would say. It's something I see a lot of, yeah. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what was that a journey for you when you were becoming a writer? Was that a journey that you had to learn to own your own dreams? No. Interesting. Rhonda Douglas: No, that was not a thing. Yeah. ⁓ I think I came into my identity as a writer as a teenager. I was writing poetry. I won some awards early on for my poetry. And then I started to get serious about fiction in my, pretty much in my late 20s, I would say, in terms of studying it ⁓ and taking it seriously. And so I always had in my head that I was a writer and I was going to be a writer one way or another. ⁓ Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: So I didn't have that issue. ⁓ The other thing I see people struggling with sometimes is ⁓ the feeling that you're not a quote unquote real writer, which is a phrase I hate, unless you're published. So if you're actually, until you're published, you're not really a writer. And there's just so much BS. ⁓ It's perpetuated. Monica Hay: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Rhonda Douglas: Not as much now, think. Maybe, you know, especially with the rise of indie publishing, think that has softened a little bit. do think I'm not legit until I'm published. you know, whereas I think a real writer is anybody who's actually writing anything. Monica Hay: Yeah. Right? Yeah, I think that's a very important distinction because yeah, there is this weird cultural phenomenon of, know, if you go to a party and you're like, I'm a writer and they're like, well, what do you what have you published? That's like the first question that people ask is like, where is your books or where can I find your work? And for a lot of people, they're not at that stage yet, especially if it's their first book. It's like they're still writing their first book and it can feel very, very invalidating. Rhonda Douglas: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And I don't think people mean it ⁓ in a harsh way when they're asking because they just don't know. They don't know the writing process. They don't understand the art. And so I try to remind myself when I hear that, like, they're not saying it to like, you know, gatekeep. They're just asking because they just don't know. But it's very embarrassing, I think, for people to be writers and beginners in art and in writing in general, because we don't allow people to be beginners in our society. Rhonda Douglas: Yes? Hmm. No, no, we don't. And I think also, you know, not everyone reads in every genre, not everyone reads widely in every genre. so when people say like, I've been asked, for example, have you written anything I would have heard of? It's like I'm not Rebecca Yaros, you know, like I didn't write Fourth Wing. ⁓ Monica Hay: No. You're like, don't know. Right. Rhonda Douglas: So I think that can be invalidating as well. People, when you say you're a writer, they want to hear best-selling writer or award-winning writer, and they mean certain things by that. You say you're a writer, and in their head, it's like you're either Stephen King or you're Nora Roberts. And you're not. Monica Hay: Yep. Right. Yeah. they, it's, it's, you're not. And it's also, it's so strange because I feel like people immediately expect your art to perform when you, when they, when you talk about it, they're like, ⁓ well, like it has to be something now because you have the audacity to do this or, know, you've chosen to do art. And so many people, think also want to make art or want to be writers and don't do it. And then they, Rhonda Douglas: Yes. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: They kind of project their own insecurities onto other people. Yeah, I find it very fascinating because I feel like this is such a, this is going be a whole podcast episode itself. It's just like how culture treats artists and writers and things like that. But we won't go down that whole rabbit hole. I am curious, you kind of touched on this a minute ago, but why do you think so many women especially wait for permission before they take themselves seriously? Rhonda Douglas: That's true. Mm-hmm. you I just don't think that this culture treats women very well. know, we're kind of, there's a lot of inbred sort of misogyny that even women themselves can take on. Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: And the feeling that, it's legit if you have a job and you're making a living. And it's good if I'm supporting my family, but anything outside of that, like if I'm not taking my kids to soccer practice or earning a living, shouldn't I be doing something for my kids or my family? You know, and the idea that we can have our own lives and our own dreams and our own secrets, even outside of our family, you know, ⁓ is, is tough for some people. ⁓ Not everyone. Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: And again, I do think it's a little bit generational. ⁓ But there is now, you know, there is a bit of a, there's a way in which that's coming back. ⁓ Monica Hay: Yeah. Hmm. Rhonda Douglas: I would say in the United States in particular, ⁓ and fostered through online influence, ⁓ both in terms of the so-called Manosphere and the whole trad wife thing. ⁓ So I don't know if that's as prevalent in Europe, ⁓ but I think in the United States, it's a big deal. So ⁓ yeah. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, were you raised in that kind of way of like making sure that you put the man first and all that type of stuff or was your family not at all like that? Rhonda Douglas: So I was raised in rural Newfoundland. so there definitely was like in the, and I was raised in the seventies, you know, my childhood was in the seventies in early eighties. So there definitely was a gender divide. Like if you, you know, if there was a big family dinner, the women are in the kitchen. Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: cooking, cleaning, and the men are seated with their drinks at the dining room table or in the living room having a chat, you know, that's changed now. ⁓ But when I was growing up, it was very much the case. So definitely the world was was, you know, when I was growing up was gendered. ⁓ And and it still is like, let's still Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. It still is, yeah. I'm curious, when you meet a person in your programs who's struggling to get themselves permission, what do you, I mean, I'm sure there's a million things that people need to hear, everybody's different, but what is something you usually tell them to help them give themselves permission to actually make art instead of focusing on everybody else? Rhonda Douglas: I talk about a couple of things. The first thing is the bit I said earlier about, you're not just here to do the laundry, pay bills, and die. You wouldn't put here for that. then also, I do an exercise with them in my, I do this book finishers boot camp. And I do an exercise where we focus on why it's important to you to finish your book. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: That's important. And then the other thing is, ⁓ I talk a lot about boundaries. like, you know, having a conversation with your partner and your kids to say, I really, you know, I really want to finish this book, it's really important to me, and I need your support to do it. And what that looks like is Wednesday night at seven o'clock, I'm going to go write for an hour, and I'm going to close the door and I'm not available. And, you know, you go do that. And then if someone interrupts you, Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: Then later on, have, again, another loving non-confrontational conversation about, remember when I said, this is what that needed to look like. Then if you get to the point where your people, and I have worked with people whose family can't respect their boundaries. I worked with white women. Monica Hay: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rhonda Douglas: She was working to finish a book and her brother, she lived with her brother and he just kept coming in and interrupting her all the time. And then she had a neighbor who would come over and knock on the door and like the phone would go and And so I was like, unplug the phone from the wall. She had a landline, like take it out of the wall, plug it in when you're done. and the other thing is if your people don't respect your boundaries, you leave your people. I don't mean divorce. I don't mean that. I mean, now. Monica Hay: Mmm. Rhonda Douglas: you go write in a coffee shop. can't, you don't let me write at home at seven o'clock. Okay, I'm at the local coffee shop writing. And, you know, and that way, you know, and you turn your phone off, nobody can reach you. And, and you get the work done, you know. ⁓ Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Yep. you I love that. Rhonda Douglas: It usually doesn't come to that, but in a really busy, busy house, with, you know, if you had like three or four kids, it can get to that point because, you know, it's a lot of chaos when you have a lot of kids. So it can get to that. But ⁓ most people can get there by having conversations with their loved ones about how important this is, you know, to me that I finished this book and that this is what that looks like in terms of you helping me do that. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I am very curious about this. What are some of the most common fears that you see in first time writers with the people you work with? Rhonda Douglas: ⁓ my gosh. We could be here a very long time. I feel like, you know, there are some common ones and then they, you know, every person has brings their own, ⁓ their own shading, coloring to it. ⁓ I think the, Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: Really, the hardest thing is to sit in the mess. So when we're drafting, we're just trying to get the story down. And there is a part of us that knows that it's not good enough yet. Right? So a lot of people will say to me, I'm just worried the book's not good enough. I'm worried that I'm not good enough as a writer. And it's like, you are the person in charge of when the book is done. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Rhonda Douglas: So if it's not good enough yet, you have many more opportunities to make it good enough until it is a book that you are proud of. So I'm not good enough, the writing is not good enough, that's a huge fear. Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: There's fear of success and fear of failure as this double-sided coin. Most people have fear of failure. What if it comes out? I got a one-star review on Amazon. People don't like it. It used to be we were worried about the critics. There aren't really that many critics left, but critics left anymore. ⁓ But the one-star review on Amazon. ⁓ Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: is a fear people have or ⁓ maybe being canceled or attacked ⁓ by putting work out there, being judged, fear of being judged. And the truth is people will judge you. Most people will look at you and be like, you wrote a book, that's awesome. And then some, like not all books are for all people. Monica Hay: Yep. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Rhonda Douglas: Like I'm writing a historical mystery with a romance subplot. If you don't read mysteries and you don't like historical, you're not my person. Monica Hay: you. Yeah. All right. Rhonda Douglas: So I expect you to like my book. I'm writing it for people who love to read historical mysteries. And I'm also writing it for people who like a romance subplot. So if you're like, oh, god, not like another woman falling in love, I can't take it. It's not for you either. And I don't expect it to be. And I think that often new writers have this idea that their books should, everybody should love it. Monica Hay: Yep. Right. Rhonda Douglas: And the sad thing is like most people are not even going to read it. Like you think your family is going to buy it and read it and most of them are not. Like they're just not. Let's get real. No, they won't. Some of them too, but no, they won't. Monica Hay: Yeah. They won't. They won't. No, I'm curious when, what was your fear when you first started out? What were some of your common fears? Rhonda Douglas: I think it is that fear of exposure, you know, for me, like, because, and when I first started writing, I was writing poetry. The work I was doing was fairly confessional in that it drew on my own life. ⁓ And so I think, you know, there was this idea of being exposed. I think now, ⁓ Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: You know, I was trained in the literary tradition, so I did my Masters of Fine Arts. I was trained in poetry, short story, novel, creative nonfiction. Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: there is this idea in the literary community, I think it's breaking down, but it's really freaking slow. And that is this idea that, you know, literary writing is the best writing. And genre writing isn't really, you know, it's for the masses, but it's not serious writing, which, you know, I think most of us know to be BS. But ⁓ when I finally was like, you know what, I love reading mysteries, so I'm going to write one, because Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: it was the pandemic and I was like, let me do something fun for a change. ⁓ I did have this idea that, you know, did I just, like, will I lose the respect of my peers? As long I'm no longer writing quote unquote serious stuff. Now I was never gonna be the next Shakespeare, you know, like, let's be real about that. ⁓ Monica Hay: Mmm. Rhonda Douglas: But I think that there's this idea that writing a genre is less. And those of us that write a genre and read genre, ⁓ for years I read romance and I read it like in secret. I secretly wrote romance. ⁓ And now I'm quite open about it. Monica Hay: Yep. Rhonda Douglas: But I think that's a big thing for those of us who write. I've worked with a lot of people writing their first romance who are afraid to tell people because they feel like someone's going to think they're writing a silly little book. But those of us who read romance, we want your book. We need it. And romance readers like, Monica Hay: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yep. Yeah. Because that's how a lot of the world treats them. Yeah. We want your book. Rhonda Douglas: They read three to five books a week. You better type quick because they need a book. Monica Hay: I know. Well, it's interesting how the world can be very cruel. I think what I've had to learn is to just delete the cruel, like remove it from my screen. I'm just like, ⁓ you're being a dick, like delete, remove. you know, I don't think that, this was in my first episode talking about how like some of the unsexy truths about being a writer. Rhonda Douglas: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And one of them was that, you're going to have people be dicks to you on the internet when you are exposed, when you're a public figure, when you have your books out. you're going to, you know, I have, I have peers who write like LGBTQ books and they'll get like the weirdest fucking emails of like people who are homophobic and like pissed off at them for promoting the gay agenda or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, like when you have a presence on the internet with your work, that does happen. And I. Rhonda Douglas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Monica Hay: like to think of that as hell yeah, I'm getting so much exposure that I'm also attracting people who aren't really meant to be in my world, but that means that I'm getting my workout and that people are seeing it. Rhonda Douglas: Yeah, I mean, I have brilliant news for you. So I am in my early 50s and I'm a post menopausal woman woman. And you know that like, we do not care club. Have you seen those memes? It's true. Like you hit your 50s and you're like, I just don't care what anybody thinks of me. And for someone who like spent, I spent a lot of my life really worried about what people think, think of me. I could sometimes be triggered into that again, but for most of it, like, if you don't like my book, I don't care. I don't care. Like, ⁓ it's not for you. Don't care. You know, there are lots of people that like my work and great, I'm going to focus on that. And I think that learning to do that is really important. Monica Hay: Yeah. Hell yeah. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: learning not to focus on the people who are complaining. ⁓ And a lot of folks, they complain because they wish they could do it themselves and they haven't. And that to me is the saddest thing in the world. Someone who wants to write and can't for any number of reasons. Monica Hay: Yeah. I know. Yeah, I agree. I have a fun question with a mindset shift. So what's a mindset shift that helps people keep going when they feel like everything they're writing is trash? Rhonda Douglas: So, I talk about riding the roller coaster, right? So we all have writing sessions where we sit down and we're like, this book is great. Like, you know, it feels good. I, uh, I'm in the flow. I'm writing this scene and I'm really excited about it. And then like, you'll sit down literally the next day and the same amount of time you will write, you know, instead of writing 1200 words, you'll write 50 words and you will hate 49 of them. And it's just the roller coaster of being a writer. And it's really easy. to believe everything your brain tells you, to kind of be at that space where you're like, oh my God, this is awful. No one's ever gonna wanna read it. It's not interesting. I sometimes talk to folks in my program who are memoir writers and they're like, I just don't think this is interesting. It's like, well, you lived it and then wrote it. You're over it. But like, somebody a chance who hasn't, you Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: doesn't know anything about it. Like give somebody to engage with it and see if it's interesting. And if you send it to beta readers and they're like, you know, that scene in chapter 18 is not interesting, take it out. Like the book is not done yet. You know, you've got a lot of opportunity to shift it. So. Monica Hay: for sure. Rhonda Douglas: I think that you have to get to a place where you stop believing everything your brain tells you. And you're just happy to like, I don't believe there are any bad writing sessions. I think that time you show up for yourself and your creative dreams is a win. And if it means you wrote 50 words and you hate 49 of them, that's awesome. Like you don't have to keep those 49 words, right? You can get to revision. can line edit them. You can delete them. You can. Monica Hay: Yeah. Great. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: you know, you've got a lot of opportunities to keep making the book better before you release it into the world. And I often when we sit down and we're like, everything is trash. It's because we have in our head that my every every writer I've met has this in their head, whether they admit it or not. My draft needs to be as good, as brilliant and as polished as the my favorite book that I just pulled off the shelf, you know. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: we don't realize that that person went through 13 drafts. And at one point, they wanted to set the book on fire on their lawn. And so the fact that you think it's trash and you're like, nobody should read this. I wouldn't inflict it on my worst enemy. It just is part of the process. I was talking to someone in First Book Finish this week, and she was like, I don't finish because I and this is really common, I bounce to a new shiny idea, right? So I'm in it and I'm uncomfortable. And so I go write a short story instead. And we have to learn to sit in the discomfort. And it's very hard, know, like sitting in the belief, you know, when your brain is telling you the book is a mess. Monica Hay: Hmm. Mmm. Yep. It is really hard. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: and you really feel like the book is a mess. But like, it's a draft or you're only in your first revision. Like, of course it's a mess. Of course it is. You know, I'm in revision number three of my mystery novel. I'll probably do five before it's done minimum. And that's where it ends up with a publisher who I'm sure will also want changes, revisions, updates, whatever, you know? So. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Rhonda Douglas: You know, this is just the way of the writing life and learning to sit in the discomfort of it not quite being ready yet, it not quite being good enough yet. That word yet is everything. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yes. I love that. That word yet is everything. I'm obsessed with that. I might use that on my Instagram and tag you. You said it. Rhonda Douglas: Mm-hmm. What? Monica Hay: I'm really curious, because you work with a lot of people who are, you said in the 50s or 60s, right? Or 40s or 50s, 60s. And how do you help writers who feel like they're too late or they're not talented enough yet and it's like, oh, my life is so over. Rhonda Douglas: So it's not over. If you're breathing, it's not over. And I believe that there's the writer we become to finish the book. So there's the book, but then there's who we become in the process of finishing the book. And so the reading copy of my first book, Monica Hay: Agreed. Rhonda Douglas: is has things crossed out, new words written in, like, you know, like, this is just the nature of it. You if you wrote your first book five years later, it would be different. And so just being OK with I have a phrase I say to myself all the time, which is I'm always learning and growing as a writer. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Rhonda Douglas: So anytime, like if I sit there in the mass and I'm like, the scene isn't working, I say to myself, it's okay, I'm always learning and growing as a writer, I can come back to this scene and do what I need to do with this scene. ⁓ Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Rhonda Douglas: And so if you're not dead, it's not done. And what I often see is people in their, women in particular in their 40s, 50s, 60s, they gave themselves over to making a living and in many cases, both making a living and raising children. And that is a busy life. I was a single mother making a living and going to graduate school. And for my sense, I was also volunteering from time to time. What? Monica Hay: Yeah. Right. You Rhonda Douglas: And when I think of it now, like my daughter's 32, but like when I think of it now, I just get tired thinking about everything I was doing, you know? And the only times I could find for writing were, you know, some occasional times on a weekend. And that it never felt like enough and it wasn't enough, but it was what I could do at the time. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: And so I see a lot of women in their 40s and 50s where like, now their kids are grown or they're teenagers. so, you know, teenagers don't want to be with their parents. And so they have more time ⁓ and and they're more determined. They're like, I set this aside. It's an important part of who I am. I'm no longer willing to set it aside. So let's get done now. And they also have a lot of experience, you know, like. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: Writing a book is basically just a project, right? It feels like it takes forever, but it doesn't. You can write a draft in three months. You can revise in four or five months, depending on ⁓ the length and scope of your book. And so it's a limited time project. And... ⁓ Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: We've all done projects, right? So, you I work with career women who've done projects. I work with, you know, stay at home moms who like basically ran the whole PTA. ⁓ And we've all done different kinds of projects. Like you renovated your kitchen, that's a project. And so we know how to get things done. We really do, yeah. Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Yep. I really love that mindset shift. It's a project. It's it's taking this thing that feels very maybe vague and just turning it into this is a project that you can do and you can finish. Rhonda Douglas: And the thing is, sometimes people come to me, often people come to me, and they're like, I have been working on this book for seven years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And I just like, I just want to say with love, no, you haven't. You worked on it for a month and then you felt really uncomfortable and you put it aside and you didn't go back to it for like two years. And then you couldn't take it anymore because you feel like it's really important. And so you pull it out and you work on it for a month. You feel uncomfortable. You put it aside for another year. So, you know, we're talking about two months of work that you've done on it, not 10 years worth of work. And so if you commit and dedicate yourself to it, you can finish it. But when a book has taken a long time, people tend to feel like, oh my God, it's going to be forever. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: And then the other thing I think, Monica, I don't know if you've seen this, but there's lots of stuff online now about like, write your book in a weekend using AI, write your book in 30 days. There's this one person who's like doing a write your book in 30 days. And every time I see the ads and I'm a writer, so, you know, I see the ads. I'm so mad. Like, why would you tell someone they can write a book in 30 days? Could they like? Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: cancel a lot of other shit in their life and write a draft in 30 days? Yeah, probably. A lot of folks didn't at a limo, you know? And so could you? Yeah, sure, you could. But like most of us need to make a living, care for our people, make sure there's toilet paper in the bathroom and groceries in the fridge. So we are fitting our book into the rest of our lives. Monica Hay: Yeah, for sure. Yep. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: And so I just feel that write a book in a weekend, write a book in a month is not true. Could you do draft? Sure. But are you going to revise it in a month as well? No. No, you are not. And so I think there's a lot of misinformation in the world about what it actually takes to create a work of art. Monica Hay: No. No. Well, I think it's really interesting that you brought this up because I think in the marketing world, people want these quick results, right? Like they want to know they can write a book in a weekend or in 30 days. Like that's a sexy result. That's a sexy feeling of like, ⁓ I could do that. And that's just really untrue marketing. That's like false ass marketing. Okay. And it's because you've, yes, people do NaNoWriMo and you can do 30 days a draft, but I feel like Rhonda Douglas: Yeah. Monica Hay: most people don't know the scope. They just don't know the scope of what it's gonna take. And that's not to say that they can't make the project happen, right? We just talked about that. But that also is to say that, you know, this like shiny, like you can do this thing in like two weeks. No. Rhonda Douglas: No, no, no. And if you did it in two weeks, you would not be proud of it. Like I think, you know, in the time of AI, there's a lot of slop out there. ⁓ Someone will like write a first draft, run it through a spell check, go get a cover from get covers.com and put it up on Amazon. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm Rhonda Douglas: Okay, but that's not the book I want to write. I want to write a book that's going to captivate the hearts and minds of readers. And that takes effort. It takes learning how to write great scenes and how to create a compelling character and all of that. And so, you know, ⁓ it's not a two week process. I wish it was. I wish. Wouldn't it be great? It would be great, but it's not really what I Monica Hay: Yeah. No. It does. No, it's not. It'd be fucking great if it was. ⁓ my God. That would be amazing. Rhonda Douglas: It's not reality, you know, I mean, we're all sitting here, you know, waiting for the next Sarah J Maas book to come out in, it's coming out October, right? And like, okay, but, you know, those, they all take time. We've all had experience of like being in a series and getting to the end of a series. And, and you're like waiting for the next book, and it takes time to write the next book. Monica Hay: Yeah, it takes time. But it's, know, people want that result of like, they want to press the button that it doesn't take time, right? And that's why these marketing tactics work on people because they don't wanna have to go through the pain to get the result. And that's the reality of being a writer is that you're gonna go through ups and downs and that includes pain. Rhonda Douglas: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And it takes time. was talking to someone this week in my first book finish program, and she was saying, so basically I just have to slog it out. And I was like, yeah, honey, you just have to slog it out. You just have to, I think of it like building a house out of bricks, right? Every writing session is a brick. How many, to build your average house, how many bricks do you think it takes? Thousands. Monica Hay: Mmm. Rhonda Douglas: But just sit there and do the work. And it's in every writing session is a brick and you're just layering brick on brick on brick. ⁓ And that's what it takes. and anybody saying anything else, it's just BS. Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. And that's what it takes. It's just BS. I mean, it's, you know, I know some people who can write really fast and I'm like, I love that for you. But those lot, a lot of times those are outliers, right? People who can write really quickly and like write a book in 30 days and it's, it's done. Like those are typically people who are outliers and I've been doing it for a very long time. ⁓ but yeah, I, I'm curious, what is the belief that you had to unlearn in your own writing process throughout your Rhonda Douglas: Yes, yes. Monica Hay: Alright, your journey. Rhonda Douglas: I have this very romantic idea, probably from like watching too many versions of Little Women, ⁓ that every writing session needed to feel good or something was wrong with me. So that if I sat down and it was a quote unquote hard writing session, right? The kind of where you get 49, you get 50 words and you hate 49 of them. That wasn't valuable, you know? And now I just think every time I show up for myself in my book, I'm doing the work and that's all that's required. And so I just think that... Monica Hay: Mmm. Rhonda Douglas: That was the biggest thing I had to do was to unromanticize my writing life. And it's funny because I am very romantic about my writing life. So I have a whole like writing ritual. I have like Charles Dickens, Fingerless Mittens for the winter when my hands are cold, I write candles and bright by the light of candles. Like I romanticize my writing life in certain ways. Monica Hay: Love it. Rhonda Douglas: I no longer expect that every time I sit down to write, the muse is sitting with me and it's just all gonna flow and it's always gonna feel good. I know I'm gonna have sessions where I question my entire being and should I even be doing this kind of stuff? And that's just how it is. And to me, the session will feel completely different and that's fine. Monica Hay: Hell yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, I like, it's interesting because this is kind of getting at the question I had, but I think they connect of what types of emotions do people not expect when they write books or when they write their first book. And I think it's getting at the fact that, like you said, people want everything to feel good. And that's just not the realities of a creative process. And a lot of time, Rhonda Douglas: No. Monica Hay: Like you said, when we have to sit with discomfort, because it's uncomfortable, we want to run away. We want to go to the next shiny thing. it's, think life is already so uncomfortable that it feels very impossible to sit with discomfort in the thing that you imagined it's supposed to be this like perfect thing for your life. Like you're like, ⁓ this is like my writing life. And like, this is what I've wanted to do with my life for so long. Rhonda Douglas: you Yeah. I that just coming to terms with the roller coaster of how you're going to feel about your riding on any given day and understanding that Monica Hay: Yep, that's very interesting. Rhonda Douglas: Especially with the first book, like your brain goes looking for evidence that you can do something based on the fact that you've done it before. And so it looks around. It's like, well, she's never written a book before. This isn't going to end well. I better protect her from this. And so then it starts feeding you all of these thoughts that are, you can't do this. Who do you think you are? You don't know what you're doing. The book isn't good enough. You're not good enough. It feeds you all of these thoughts in order to keep you safe. And that's an autonomic process. It's just going to happen. And so really for me, it's about understanding that the thoughts that my brain sends me about my writing are not true. Both like, ⁓ my god, this book is brilliant. It's the best thing ever. Probably not. Monica Hay: Right, they're not true. Rhonda Douglas: You know, yet. And ⁓ and also the, you know, it's horrible. No one's ever going to read it. Also not true. And so I just think that. The more that we understand how our brain works, the easier it is to kind of get into that place of. You know what the what a Buddhist would describe as detachment, like I'm just following the process. Monica Hay: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: putting in the time and enjoying the practice and the process. And eventually what's going to result from this is a book. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yep, yeah, I really like the, I used to really dislike this, the idea of like, life is suffering. I used to really hate that. And as I've gotten older, I'm like, I love that quote so much because it's not just saying all of life is suffering. It's not saying every moment is suffering, but it's saying, it normalizes the fact that we're fucking humans and that it's not just like a party every day. And, Rhonda Douglas: Yeah. Thanks. Monica Hay: we experience pleasure and pain. And sometimes that pain is in places that we love being there. We love writing. We love these different things about our life. For example, I moved to the Netherlands and I'm an immigrant here and I love living here, but do you think it's all sunshine and daisies? There's gonna be pain and pleasure in that process of being an immigrant and living abroad. And so I... I really like that we're kind of getting at the fact that there's going to be a roller coaster and that doesn't mean it's a bad process. That doesn't mean you're bad writer or not supposed to be a writer. Yeah. So where can people... Oh yeah, you talked about a DIY retreat. You mentioned this in your booking. Do want to tell me? Rhonda Douglas: Totally. Hmm. So this is something that we do ⁓ in my first book finish program. call them I call them page booster writing retreat weekends. And we've got one happening this weekend. And we're it's basically where you set up your life to clear as much time as possible for writing on a weekend. And when I did this, I used to do this with a friend and we did it like every six weeks or so. And we would book a place go away. Monica Hay: Cool. Rhonda Douglas: And we used to go to this place that was a ⁓ silent sanctuary. And so we couldn't walk during the day. And so we would get there on Friday. We'd work all day Friday. And then we'd work all day Saturday. And then Saturday night, we would leave and go to a local bar or restaurant and like drink, talk about, a glass of wine and talk about our writing. And then Sunday, we would continue writing. And so I think it really helps to have Monica Hay: Nice. Love it. Rhonda Douglas: dedicated time to just immerse yourself in your project from time to time. And so every month we do this in First Book Finish. ⁓ And so we're writing all over the world. There's someone in Finland. There are people in Europe, people in all over basically New Zealand, Australia, America, Canada, all over the place. And we're in our own time zone, in our own location. ⁓ I send out Monica Hay: Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: what I hope are motivating inspirational emails that we can check in with. And then we meet on the Sunday and I host a session that's like an accountability session where we can connect and talk about how it went. And most importantly, not just how it went because... Monica Hay: you Mmm. Rhonda Douglas: you know, sometimes they go great and and you know, I'll be I'll be on a call and there'll be like 50 of us and everybody was great. It was great. It was great. And then you have the one person was like, it wasn't great. You know, and that can feel really bad. But it's about what did you learn? Right. What did you learn about yourself and your creative process? Like, did you learn that actually your writing is better when you go for a walk first or meditate first? Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Rhonda Douglas: Or you just need to get a frozen lasagna in the fridge so that you don't have to stop and figure out what you're doing for dinner. That it's better when you connect with other writing friends, which I often will do over the weekend, just to remind me and be in community. ⁓ So that's how we do it. I do have a guide for how I think about them on my website. And maybe you can pop that in the show notes for people. ⁓ Monica Hay: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yep. Rhonda Douglas: Because I think for a long time I just set those up for myself. So that's why I call them DIY retreats. And you can just set them up for yourself. I used to use my credit card points to book in at a hotel that had room service, which. And now I do them at home. And it works at home. It's just you've got a clear. Monica Hay: Nice. Rhonda Douglas: your agenda for the weekend. And it's also about getting more done than you normally would do. So like, you don't have to write all day Saturday and all day Sunday. ⁓ If you get in a couple of hours on Saturday and an hour on Sunday, congratulations, you've done more than you otherwise would have done. You won the weekend, you know, that's really what it's about. Yeah. Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. I love that. I love that so much. it's funny, I just did that without realizing I was doing that last weekend. What was it weekend before? I don't remember. I had a day where I was like, I'm gonna go to a cafe and I'm gonna bring my being your own keyboard, just like little device that's distraction free writing. And I ended up writing for two hours. Then I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't, if I brought my laptop, I would have been like, oh, let's do some work emails. Let's do some work. But I was like, no, I'm gonna do my writing. That's what's coming first. Rhonda Douglas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Monica Hay: today. So I love that so much. Where can people find you Rhonda? Rhonda Douglas: a few places. mean, I'm at resilient writers.com. If you, listen to podcasts, which obviously you do, if you're listening to this, ⁓ my podcast is called the resilient writers radio show. And I interview, ⁓ writers about their process and their books, ⁓ on that show. And so every interview is a new. you know, discovery. ⁓ And then I am on Instagram at resilient writers. And I've just started a YouTube channel. There's not much there right now. There's some shorts and my podcast is up there. ⁓ But yeah, but I'm hoping to do more with that this year. So yeah. Monica Hay: Love it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here and answering all my silly questions. Rhonda Douglas: It was great to chat with you. Enjoyed it. Monica Hay: Yeah.