Latest / Conspiracy! The Show / Welcome to Jonestown Pt. 4 - The CIA, Guyana, and the Other Jonestown

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Welcome to Jonestown Pt. 4 - The CIA, Guyana, and the Other Jonestown · Conspiracy! The Show

0:10
Speaker 1: Winter insurance, true the troth, I'm a check both insurance.
0:15
Speaker 2: Get Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy the Show. I'm Adam
0:34
Speaker 2: Todd Brown.
0:35
Speaker 1: And I'm Olivia Haidar, and we're.
0:37
Speaker 2: Your goddamn hosts. I'm gonna edit that long silence out.
0:41
Speaker 2: But there's there's a little delay. But I I catch
0:45
Speaker 2: people off guard. I don't I don't point, I don't point.
0:48
Speaker 2: I don't throw it to anyone. I just say my
0:51
Speaker 2: name and expect Olivia to say her name, and here
0:54
Speaker 2: we go.
0:55
Speaker 1: It was it was an element of suspense. You know, yeah,
0:58
Speaker 1: it's good.
0:58
Speaker 2: How's it going?
1:00
Speaker 1: Oh? Oh, things are great. You know, things are great.
1:04
Speaker 1: I would say, all told, I can't complain back on
1:08
Speaker 1: my meds. Very nice, very nice. And that is my
1:13
Speaker 1: biggest news for the last few weeks.
1:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like we're all just kind of in
1:19
Speaker 2: that holding pattern, waiting, yeap for enough people to be
1:23
Speaker 2: vaccinated so we can go out and watch movies in theaters. Again.
1:28
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't I do miss movies in theaters.
1:31
Speaker 2: I don't know why I said it that way, but.
1:34
Speaker 1: No, absolutely we are.
1:36
Speaker 2: We're hit round and third heading for home. That's a
1:39
Speaker 2: sports reference. Audience in terms of our deep, deep dive
1:44
Speaker 2: into Jonestown. And here's the thing, I'm starting to realize
1:49
Speaker 2: this could be like twenty five to thirty episodes long
1:54
Speaker 2: if I let it get that way, just.
1:56
Speaker 1: A whole separate Jonestown podcast.
1:59
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all already kind of been, Like the
2:01
Speaker 2: past seven or eight episodes have all been Jonestown related.
2:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we got.
2:07
Speaker 2: One more after this, and I'm telling you it could
2:11
Speaker 2: go on forever. Jonestown is such a wide ranging thing
2:17
Speaker 2: that just I don't know, there's so much shit that
2:20
Speaker 2: spins off of it, and yeah, you just kind of
2:23
Speaker 2: end up like at some point there's almost more interesting
2:27
Speaker 2: stuff as crazy and weird as Jonestown is. Like, one
2:31
Speaker 2: of the things I'm finding is that this idea that
2:34
Speaker 2: Jonestown was a CIA medical experiment, that's a mainstream theory.
2:38
Speaker 2: It's just been lost to history.
2:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was like the narrative at the time, but
2:44
Speaker 1: it's kind of been forgotten.
2:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like right after it happened, we were fresh off
2:49
Speaker 2: of the Church Committee, which is the panel that investigated
2:55
Speaker 2: MK Ultra, and that happened in seventy four, So Jonestown
3:00
Speaker 2: happens four years later, and obviously people are like, hey,
3:03
Speaker 2: is this that again? Was this you? And they were like,
3:09
Speaker 2: why don't you ask the people who survived since seventies.
3:13
Speaker 1: Seventies of course also a high point I think of
3:18
Speaker 1: general distrust in government agencies and the intelligence apparatus in general.
3:25
Speaker 2: So honestly, it might have been the healthiest point in
3:30
Speaker 2: our relationship with the government as American people. Like, yeah,
3:35
Speaker 2: we were doing the things we needed to do as
3:38
Speaker 2: a people. It's just that the government won basically.
3:42
Speaker 1: Right, essentially, Yeah, seems to be the case.
3:46
Speaker 2: So let's just kind of retrace our steps here in
3:50
Speaker 2: the Jonestown story. Our first episode was just about like
3:54
Speaker 2: a general overview of the official version of events. I
3:58
Speaker 2: recorded that with Physic Decide, and from there we started
4:02
Speaker 2: where the book starts, which is Operation paper Clip. You're
4:06
Speaker 2: familiar with Operation paper Clip, right.
4:08
Speaker 1: Of course, of course, it was, yeah, the Nazi you know,
4:11
Speaker 1: the American program to bring Nazi scientists over.
4:14
Speaker 2: Of course, Operation paper Clip ends up spawning one the CIA,
4:19
Speaker 2: which half of the CIA when it launched was former
4:22
Speaker 2: SS agents. So it's very comforting. I'm sure none of.
4:26
Speaker 1: Them are those number up since then?
4:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure they all renounced their Nazi ways immediately
4:32
Speaker 2: upon setting foot on American soil. And it also spawned
4:36
Speaker 2: MK Ultra, which is what a lot of people suspect
4:41
Speaker 2: spawned Jonestown. So we we covered Operation paper Clip. We
4:45
Speaker 2: covered the Layton family. The Laytons are a family that
4:50
Speaker 2: seemed to have some Nazi connections, and they definitely were
4:55
Speaker 2: the chief financers and architects of Jonestown. And they also
5:00
Speaker 2: just happened to have a lot of American intelligence connections,
5:04
Speaker 2: like the mom worked for the CIA, the dad worked
5:07
Speaker 2: for the CIA, the dad was on the fucking Manhattan Project.
5:11
Speaker 1: Right, And of course, uh, the Professor Layton, you know,
5:15
Speaker 1: solved the mystery of the Diabolical Box and a lot
5:19
Speaker 1: of other mysteries throughout history. Yeah, they believe one was
5:23
Speaker 1: on a train. What's half Master Layton was a video
5:25
Speaker 1: game character. Sorry, then a game. There's a whole there's
5:30
Speaker 1: a whole series of like puzzle games about Professor Layton
5:37
Speaker 1: called the Professor, Like it's just called Professor Layton, man
5:40
Speaker 1: the Diabolical Box.
5:42
Speaker 2: Or twenty five to thirty people listening to this are
5:44
Speaker 2: just losing their ship right now.
5:47
Speaker 1: It's a popular game. I would say.
5:50
Speaker 2: I'm gonna look it up. It might might be named
5:52
Speaker 2: after this guy.
5:53
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe they were he loved he loved puzzles where
5:57
Speaker 1: you slide tiles around this screen to make sure the
6:01
Speaker 1: path was unobstructed.
6:02
Speaker 2: Those games were just funding all kinds of horrible covert
6:07
Speaker 2: ops in South America.
6:10
Speaker 1: That the amazing if Japanese developer Level five Games was
6:13
Speaker 1: involved in this CIA plot.
6:16
Speaker 2: And it'd be amazing if the CIA wasn't funding that
6:19
Speaker 2: shit selling crack.
6:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway.
6:24
Speaker 2: Anyway, so that was the third official Jonestown episode, was
6:28
Speaker 2: the Layton family episode. And today we're talking about the
6:33
Speaker 2: CIA's involvement in the overthrow of Guyana and their activities
6:39
Speaker 2: in Guyana in the seventies in general, and the other
6:42
Speaker 2: Jonestown that was happening at the exact same time. But
6:45
Speaker 2: before we get into that, let's talk about this book
6:48
Speaker 2: a little bit. I'm not sure if I trust this
6:50
Speaker 2: book anymore, Olivia. Yeah, don't get me wrong, I very
6:54
Speaker 2: much believe the CIA was involved in Jonestown.
6:56
Speaker 1: Still sure, Yeah, seems clear, It.
7:00
Speaker 2: Seems pretty clear. Yeah, I've I'm just not sure about
7:04
Speaker 2: all the details in this particular book. I mentioned on
7:08
Speaker 2: an earlier episode, the guy who wrote this book is
7:12
Speaker 2: essentially a ghost, like he showed up. He wrote this
7:16
Speaker 2: book in like eighty eight or eighty nine, and we
7:19
Speaker 2: talked to the publisher who didn't want to appear on
7:23
Speaker 2: the show, a guy named Herb Richardson, and he said
7:25
Speaker 2: the guy showed up wrote the book, and then they
7:29
Speaker 2: just completely lost contact and the guy fell off the
7:32
Speaker 2: map after that, and then the guy who wrote it
7:35
Speaker 2: Michael Myers from Halloween and Canada.
7:40
Speaker 1: And yeah, of course right, he pops up again in.
7:44
Speaker 2: Twenty fourteen and writes another book about how the CIA
7:48
Speaker 2: started AIDS in Africa, and then disappears again like he is.
7:53
Speaker 2: He has no website, he has no social media, nothing,
7:57
Speaker 2: And I feel like that's that's I mean, get it, Like,
8:00
Speaker 2: if you're actually exposing for real CIA shit, like I
8:05
Speaker 2: guess you would raybe want to be secretive about it.
8:07
Speaker 2: But also this is a thing, like I've also mentioned earlier,
8:11
Speaker 2: San Diego State University has a whole website dedicated to
8:16
Speaker 2: the idea that jonestown was a CIA thing, and they
8:20
Speaker 2: updated every year. It was most recently updated in October
8:24
Speaker 2: twenty twenty. If they feel comfortable keeping the flame alive
8:29
Speaker 2: for this, Like, why would this guy need to be
8:32
Speaker 2: that secretive about it?
8:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always kind of a red flag when the
8:36
Speaker 1: publisher goes, yeah, we published his book, and then we
8:40
Speaker 1: have no idea what happened after that? We you know,
8:44
Speaker 1: what happens to his I mean, does he not get checks?
8:47
Speaker 1: Does he not get anything? Like he just totally vanished
8:51
Speaker 1: and then pops up and publishes another book.
8:54
Speaker 2: I actually I have a theory. I have a theory
8:56
Speaker 2: on what's happening, okay with this book. The publisher they
8:59
Speaker 2: submit it to Edwin Mellon Press. Their books are intended
9:03
Speaker 2: to be sold to college libraries, and because of that,
9:09
Speaker 2: they go through like an actual academic review process. This
9:13
Speaker 2: is all according to the publisher. This book never went
9:17
Speaker 2: through that process, and he says that's why they didn't
9:20
Speaker 2: sell a bunch. You can still buy it on their
9:22
Speaker 2: website and without looking at it, I can't confirm the
9:25
Speaker 2: exact number, but it's somewhere around four or five hundred
9:28
Speaker 2: dollars like textbooks often are. And Jesus, so they didn't
9:33
Speaker 2: sell a lot of copies of this. What I think,
9:36
Speaker 2: no shit, Yeah, what I suserpect might have been happening
9:42
Speaker 2: is maybe someone wrote this book with a lot of
9:46
Speaker 2: weird factual errors in it, because I did catch a
9:49
Speaker 2: thing in the Layton Family episode where this book says
9:53
Speaker 2: the parents and that family stayed behind in Italy to
9:57
Speaker 2: work on the Nazi rat lines for a couple of
9:59
Speaker 2: years before where they came to the United States. But
10:01
Speaker 2: then the year they come to the United States is
10:03
Speaker 2: like two years before those Nazi rat lines, which were
10:07
Speaker 2: the routes they used to get Nazis into Argentina and
10:10
Speaker 2: shit like that, It was like two years before those
10:12
Speaker 2: even started. So where were they? Were they there or
10:16
Speaker 2: were they here? And even those ones that start like
10:18
Speaker 2: two years later were in Spain, they weren't in Italy.
10:21
Speaker 2: So what I think might have happened here is I
10:25
Speaker 2: think someone was hoping this would go through that academic
10:29
Speaker 2: review process and get rejected, because then you'd have that's
10:33
Speaker 2: almost as definitive of a debunking as you can get,
10:38
Speaker 2: is if they send it through an actual fucking textbook
10:41
Speaker 2: review process and they come out the other end and go, no,
10:44
Speaker 2: this is full of shit, that's wrong, then you'd just
10:47
Speaker 2: forever point to that and be like, yeah, see we
10:50
Speaker 2: didn't do it.
10:50
Speaker 1: Sure, but it's interesting that they if that was the plan,
10:56
Speaker 1: that they didn't anticipate that it might not get a
11:00
Speaker 1: proved you know, that it might not go through that process.
11:03
Speaker 1: That seems like something that like a CIA investigator might
11:08
Speaker 1: like uncover as a possibility.
11:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. The possibilities are endless.
11:15
Speaker 2: I just I really wish I could find the guy
11:18
Speaker 2: that wrote this book and for nothing else, asked why
11:21
Speaker 2: he chose Michael Myers as a fake name, Like, if
11:23
Speaker 2: you're gonna choose Michael Myers as your fake name, at
11:27
Speaker 2: least make it the same spelling, so then you're impossible
11:30
Speaker 2: to google. But no, this is E I, E. R. S. Whatever.
11:35
Speaker 2: And no it's not the guy at UC Davis Relax Internet.
11:38
Speaker 1: But is it the guy who founded the midwestern Walmart
11:43
Speaker 1: style superstore Meyer.
11:45
Speaker 2: Oh that I don't know. I've been to a Meyer.
11:48
Speaker 1: I used to.
11:49
Speaker 2: That was my first job, Oh wow for Metak Steak
11:53
Speaker 2: and Shake was my first job.
11:54
Speaker 1: Oh classic drive The first job.
11:58
Speaker 2: I work, oh every weekend five pm to three am,
12:02
Speaker 2: which I don't think was legal given that I was
12:05
Speaker 2: like sixteen at the time. Yeah, now, yeah, it was weak,
12:11
Speaker 2: it was rough, But I fucking love a stake Burger.
12:13
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm kind of concerned that leaning on this
12:16
Speaker 2: guy's book as the and I haven't been leaning just
12:19
Speaker 2: on this book as the only source. I usually when
12:21
Speaker 2: I dig into a book like this, I try to
12:23
Speaker 2: at least confirm the shit they're talking about. But like
12:27
Speaker 2: a lot of times, they're talking about books that are
12:30
Speaker 2: also impossible to find. But you can still if you
12:32
Speaker 2: do the legwork, you can you can find some stuff.
12:36
Speaker 2: But one thing we know that the government does is
12:39
Speaker 2: they will if someone is kind of onto something, they'll
12:43
Speaker 2: sometimes send someone out to give that person more details
12:46
Speaker 2: and be like, yes, you are onto something, here's more
12:48
Speaker 2: information about it, and then that'll all be fake and
12:51
Speaker 2: then that person will publish it and they'll go, see
12:54
Speaker 2: that person's a liar.
12:55
Speaker 1: And right, this has come up a lot, Yeah, as
12:59
Speaker 1: a as.
12:59
Speaker 2: A thing, and I could see this book kind of
13:02
Speaker 2: being one of those things where it's about a thing
13:05
Speaker 2: that is true, which is the CI. Because the CIA
13:09
Speaker 2: was involved in Jonestown. There's no fucking way, like, once
13:12
Speaker 2: we start getting into what else was going on in
13:14
Speaker 2: Guyana at the time, there is literally no way the
13:18
Speaker 2: CIA wasn't involved in this in some way.
13:21
Speaker 1: And it's you're not saying and you're not specifying any
13:25
Speaker 1: direct like actual actions or whatever. It's just like there's
13:29
Speaker 1: no fucking way that they weren't involved, like at the very.
13:33
Speaker 2: Least, yeah, or even just knew like they definitely knew,
13:38
Speaker 2: right like we have.
13:39
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's that is what be concrete proof.
13:42
Speaker 2: And like Jim Jones was a big public figure before
13:47
Speaker 2: he went to Guyana, like he was until people started
13:51
Speaker 2: defecting from that group and telling the press what was
13:54
Speaker 2: happening there. People really viewed him as this progressive guy
13:59
Speaker 2: who had the best interests of black people in mind.
14:03
Speaker 2: And then once that all started falling apart, that's when
14:06
Speaker 2: he high tailed it to Guyana. But everyone in the
14:09
Speaker 2: United States knew who he was, like he was a
14:12
Speaker 2: media figure.
14:13
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's why it was such a big story
14:15
Speaker 1: in one way, like or one reason why it was
14:18
Speaker 1: such a huge story at the time.
14:20
Speaker 2: You kind of have to figure that either way, the
14:23
Speaker 2: CIA would know about Jonestown because if it really was
14:27
Speaker 2: this experiment to set up this socialist utopia in our hemisphere,
14:33
Speaker 2: our part of the world, well you got you just
14:35
Speaker 2: look at your CIA history and you know they're not
14:37
Speaker 2: going to let that happen, like, oh, of course they
14:40
Speaker 2: are absolutely not. We don't let it happen now, Like
14:44
Speaker 2: look at Venezuela since they elected Hugo Chavez. Yep, we
14:48
Speaker 2: have been trying to put a halt to that ever since.
14:51
Speaker 1: So it's our favorite pastime.
14:53
Speaker 2: It really is, Yeah, fighting communism with the help of Nazis.
14:58
Speaker 2: And so like either he the CIA was going to
15:01
Speaker 2: know about Jonestown at the very least, but I think
15:03
Speaker 2: they more than new. We'll get into it. But this book,
15:07
Speaker 2: some of the things that he brings up what makes
15:10
Speaker 2: me nervous is this theory really is pretty well documented
15:14
Speaker 2: and it's been covered by a lot of people. It's
15:16
Speaker 2: been suggested by a lot of people. But there's just
15:19
Speaker 2: stuff in this book that doesn't come up anywhere else,
15:21
Speaker 2: like Jim Jones being a key figure in the Bay
15:24
Speaker 2: of Pigs operation, right, But at the same time, he
15:28
Speaker 2: did go to Cuba in nineteen sixty after the Cuban Revolution.
15:31
Speaker 2: So it's like, sure, I don't know who's to know.
15:34
Speaker 1: Which is sketch, that's sketch, it's sus as the kids
15:38
Speaker 1: say it is.
15:39
Speaker 2: It is highly sus that he goes to Cuba about
15:44
Speaker 2: a year before Bay of Pigs happens year or two.
15:47
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know. I don't know if
15:48
Speaker 3: people know this, but in nineteen sixty going to Cuba
15:53
Speaker 3: as an American uh not like you know, super cool,
15:59
Speaker 3: not loved.
16:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't just go. That's why when Dennis Rodman
16:03
Speaker 2: and Vice went to North Korea, I was like, oh, Vice,
16:07
Speaker 2: because that's what the government calls having fun. That's VICE.
16:11
Speaker 2: There a wing of the government. I get why we're
16:13
Speaker 2: going to North Korea. That's the CIA.
16:15
Speaker 1: And I didn't know. I went to a CIA back
16:18
Speaker 1: house party. That's pretty crazy.
16:20
Speaker 2: I wrote an article about Prince for the CIA and
16:24
Speaker 2: it was about how the movie Purple Rain sucks. So
16:27
Speaker 2: I got paid to sow division is what I got.
16:29
Speaker 1: Wow? Paid Wow.
16:31
Speaker 2: I am a chaos agent. So yeah, I don't know,
16:34
Speaker 2: it's weird that he was there. I mean, the Bay
16:36
Speaker 2: of Pigs operation did involve US sending people in to
16:40
Speaker 2: like recruit people to come out and get training to
16:44
Speaker 2: go back and invade Cuba, right, And that was kind
16:47
Speaker 2: of Jim Jones's bag, was rallying people up to do things.
16:52
Speaker 1: I just we were mostly sending Cubans. Cuban Americans to
16:57
Speaker 1: the Bay of Pigs though, right, like a lot of
16:59
Speaker 1: that people. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. I
17:03
Speaker 1: don't know that whole thing is That's a whole separate disaster. Yeah,
17:07
Speaker 1: the Bay Pigs.
17:09
Speaker 2: Either way, the CIA was involved in Jonestown, Like, I
17:12
Speaker 2: don't need Jim Jones to be a CIA agent for
17:16
Speaker 2: this theory. Yeah, And I think the biggest proof that
17:22
Speaker 2: this was a CIA involved thing is where it happened,
17:26
Speaker 2: which was Guyana. You have to take into account how
17:30
Speaker 2: involved the CIA was in Guyana at the time. Like
17:35
Speaker 2: everything that happened in that country once they tried to
17:40
Speaker 2: elect a communist, everything that happens in that country is
17:44
Speaker 2: basically the result of CIA covert action. Even JFK was
17:50
Speaker 2: just so enthusiastic about toppling Guyana. It starts in sixty
17:55
Speaker 2: two when JFK is still in office and this guy
17:58
Speaker 2: named Cheddy Jiggan who is running for office in Guyana
18:03
Speaker 2: in the elections are gonna happen in nineteen sixty four.
18:06
Speaker 2: He comes to meet with Kennedy and is like, look,
18:10
Speaker 2: I get that, you know, I'm a communist or whatever,
18:13
Speaker 2: but I don't have any plans of teaming up with
18:16
Speaker 2: Russia and Kennedy was like, cool, you do you And
18:19
Speaker 2: then as soon as the guy left, he was like,
18:21
Speaker 2: fucking take that guy out. I don't like this.
18:24
Speaker 1: I never want to see that man again. Well he
18:27
Speaker 1: was more like, I never want to see that man again.
18:30
Speaker 2: Oh. The CIA is like all right, but we're gonna
18:33
Speaker 2: kill you anyway in a few years. And like, this
18:37
Speaker 2: isn't that JFK signed off on. This isn't speculation or rumor.
18:42
Speaker 2: It is documented. We'll link to an article where you
18:46
Speaker 2: can read all the details. That article is on a
18:51
Speaker 2: on a government run NSSA archive website. It doesn't get
18:55
Speaker 2: more definitive than the government telling on themselves. And that's
18:59
Speaker 2: base what that article is. And this the o that
19:03
Speaker 2: we overthrew this government. It's so well known that it
19:06
Speaker 2: became a scandal again under the Clinton administration, like everyone knows,
19:11
Speaker 2: the CIA installed their chosen leader in Guyana. And yeah,
19:18
Speaker 2: that guy's name was Forbes Burnham, which come on, what
19:21
Speaker 2: a name that really?
19:24
Speaker 1: It's really an incredible name. Uh, it's just not what.
19:28
Speaker 1: You don't think of a Forbes Burnham as being a dictator.
19:32
Speaker 1: You think of a Forbes Burnham as being more of
19:34
Speaker 1: a rich like, you know, kind of an oil baron maybe,
19:40
Speaker 1: or someone who comes from generational wealth.
19:43
Speaker 2: In La comic with rich parents, something like that.
19:46
Speaker 1: Oh, exact, exactly.
19:49
Speaker 2: So to give you an idea of how well known
19:55
Speaker 2: and how well documented the CIA's activities in Guyana are,
19:59
Speaker 2: this is a quote from the New York Times from
20:01
Speaker 2: the mid nineties, when the US for some reason, refused
20:05
Speaker 2: to declassify documents relating to the country. Here's the quote.
20:09
Speaker 2: Still classified documents depict in unusual detail a direct order
20:13
Speaker 2: from the president to unseat doctor Jagon, say government officials
20:18
Speaker 2: familiar with the secret papers. Though many presidents have ordered
20:21
Speaker 2: the CIA to undermine foreign leaders, they say the Jigon
20:25
Speaker 2: papers are a smoking gun, a clear written record, without
20:30
Speaker 2: veiled words or plausible denials of a president's command to
20:34
Speaker 2: depose a prime minister. And like, all I've ever known
20:38
Speaker 2: about the CIA and Kennedy is that they were kind
20:40
Speaker 2: of at odds. So I can just imagine if you're
20:43
Speaker 2: in the CIA and Kennedy's like, no, you can do that,
20:46
Speaker 2: They're gonna be like, Okay, let's have fun.
20:50
Speaker 1: Really okay, great.
20:52
Speaker 2: You can do anything anything we want.
20:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, And here I thought you were just some
20:57
Speaker 1: Catholic you know, papists. I guess you're a good guy
21:01
Speaker 1: in some ways.
21:02
Speaker 2: Good in air quotes, Yeah, exactly. And as soon as
21:08
Speaker 2: he signs off on this, we start doing some crazy
21:12
Speaker 2: shit in Guyana. Well, well, once we get Forbes Burnham
21:16
Speaker 2: in office, because we basically what the CIA did is
21:20
Speaker 2: they went to labor unions and basically had labor unions
21:25
Speaker 2: form the opposition against Chetty Jigan. And then like at
21:30
Speaker 2: one point they start a fire that consumes a bunch
21:33
Speaker 2: of the city and like they were really going to
21:35
Speaker 2: the fucking matt to get this guy out offic Yeah,
21:38
Speaker 2: and once they get Forbes Burnham elected, they start doing
21:42
Speaker 2: all kinds of crazy shit. One of the things they
21:45
Speaker 2: start doing is trying to recruit people in the United
21:51
Speaker 2: States to move to Guyana or wherever to fight as
21:57
Speaker 2: mercenaries in Angola.
21:59
Speaker 1: Sounds like a good you know, hard, hard to to resist.
22:03
Speaker 2: Three hot get shot.
22:10
Speaker 1: That's how they've gotten people for decades, centuries.
22:14
Speaker 2: One of the rumors about Jonestown is that the compound
22:18
Speaker 2: before it became Jonestown was used for something else, and
22:22
Speaker 2: that something else was to train mercenaries to fight in
22:25
Speaker 2: Angola and that is hard to find information on. It's
22:31
Speaker 2: called Project Shalom, And there's still a Project Shalom out
22:35
Speaker 2: there that I think is kind of tied to whatever was.
22:38
Speaker 2: But now it's just like a Christian organization as opposed
22:41
Speaker 2: like they don't have They're not like training mercenaries on
22:44
Speaker 2: their website these days.
22:46
Speaker 1: Christian organization. Interesting, interesting name.
22:49
Speaker 2: The CIA loves a Christian organization. They they do a
22:54
Speaker 2: lot of work with missionaries. That's why whenever a missionary
22:57
Speaker 2: gets taken by a foreign government on suspicion of being
23:01
Speaker 2: a spy. I'm always like, listen, send them home. But yeah,
23:04
Speaker 2: you're right, he's probably a spy. Yeah, why was he
23:07
Speaker 2: that close to the border of Iran? No one needs
23:11
Speaker 2: to be there, Honestly.
23:13
Speaker 1: It's not to do the invoke the year thing, but
23:17
Speaker 1: it's the year twenty twenty one. Do we really need
23:20
Speaker 1: missionaries in general, regardless of whether they're CIA spies. I
23:26
Speaker 1: think the information's out there. It's okay, guys, you can
23:30
Speaker 1: take a break.
23:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think public opinion has turned on trying to
23:35
Speaker 2: convert Muslims to Christianity, and we just let that ride
23:39
Speaker 2: and just yeah, let everyone stay on their own respective sides.
23:44
Speaker 2: It's for the best. It's really for the best if
23:47
Speaker 2: we would just get out of the middle, and it's fine.
23:49
Speaker 2: But so this project shallowm thing. There's not a ton
23:55
Speaker 2: of information about it, but there is a declassified State
24:00
Speaker 2: Apartment document that says the following. In July nineteen seventy four,
24:04
Speaker 2: embassy officers visited the two agricultural communities being established in
24:10
Speaker 2: the vicinity of Kaituma, which is the port that Jim
24:14
Speaker 2: Jones used to get stuff into Jonestown, the People's Temple
24:18
Speaker 2: Agricultural Mission and the Shalome Cooperative. So, yeah, it probably
24:25
Speaker 2: was exactly that. And you have to like, clearly the
24:29
Speaker 2: CIA was doing shit in Guyana. They deposed one leader,
24:35
Speaker 2: put their leader in charge, they start training mercenaries there,
24:40
Speaker 2: And when you consider that, you have to consider the
24:44
Speaker 2: CIA's main areas of interest after World War Two, which
24:48
Speaker 2: I think come down to four things, mind control, oppressing
24:53
Speaker 2: black people, toppling foreign governments, and making sure United States
24:57
Speaker 2: business interests in foreign countries are ten too. And yeah,
25:01
Speaker 2: all of those things intersect in Guyana, even at Jonestown. Yeah,
25:06
Speaker 2: and with all the other stuff they were doing, like
25:09
Speaker 2: there's no way, there's no way, Jonestown was not a
25:12
Speaker 2: c I a thing because everything else in the country
25:16
Speaker 2: was except for the political party they wanted to squash.
25:21
Speaker 1: Everything else was the I mean, yeah, they definitely had
25:24
Speaker 1: their fingers, I would say, in a lot of pies.
25:29
Speaker 1: And it seems like mind control is really the only
25:32
Speaker 1: one that ever got rumbled, like in the big way,
25:35
Speaker 1: the only one that ever like got so so much
25:40
Speaker 1: public attention that they like just were like, hey, all right,
25:43
Speaker 1: all right, all right, we gotta we gotta chill out
25:46
Speaker 1: on this. But everything else is still pretty much the
25:50
Speaker 1: motus upperendi.
25:51
Speaker 2: And the argument I've always suspected it and I've actually
25:57
Speaker 2: seen it. Said in researching this, one of the main
26:01
Speaker 2: proponents of the CIA theory at first after Jonestown happened
26:06
Speaker 2: was a guy named Joe Holsinger who was an aide
26:09
Speaker 2: to Leo Ryan. Leo Ryan is the congressman who was
26:12
Speaker 2: killed at Jonestown, and he immediately after getting back was like,
26:16
Speaker 2: that was some CIA shit. CIA did Jonestown. They probably
26:21
Speaker 2: killed all those people, and we should look into this.
26:25
Speaker 2: And one of the things he suggested or claimed was
26:29
Speaker 2: that after mk Ultra got found out as being a
26:33
Speaker 2: thing that was happening at just colleges and hospitals all
26:36
Speaker 2: around the US and Canada. The CIA was like, all right, well,
26:40
Speaker 2: we can't do that in public anymore, so we'll just
26:43
Speaker 2: take it to fucking cults and communes and shit. And
26:47
Speaker 2: it seems like Jonestown was that because it that move
26:50
Speaker 2: to Guyana happens right when those church committee hearings are happening,
26:54
Speaker 2: when everyone's finding out about MK ultra and they're not
26:58
Speaker 2: just gonna listen. They're clearly onto something when it comes
27:02
Speaker 2: to mind control. Sure like they stuck with that shit
27:06
Speaker 2: for decades, right, and we're supposed to think they just
27:10
Speaker 2: gave it up in seventy four.
27:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. They had all those
27:15
Speaker 1: guys staring at goats and you know, it just maybe
27:19
Speaker 1: that was just too costly. I don't know, the heat
27:24
Speaker 1: got too bad.
27:25
Speaker 2: There is video out there. I didn't put it in
27:29
Speaker 2: the notes because I think I want to do an
27:30
Speaker 2: entire episode about it. But there is this doctor who
27:34
Speaker 2: in the sixties fought a bull using a box. He
27:39
Speaker 2: connected electrodes inside this bull's brain. It was all wireless.
27:43
Speaker 2: He put these electrodes in this bull's brain and then
27:47
Speaker 2: goes out into the bullfighting ring and has this box,
27:51
Speaker 2: and the fucking regular bullfighter guy does the red cape
27:56
Speaker 2: thing and the bull starts charging at him, and the
27:58
Speaker 2: guy just hits a button and that motherfucker stops and
28:01
Speaker 2: just turns around and walks away. And that was nineteen
28:05
Speaker 2: sixty three.
28:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and that guy he got the Nobel Price
28:11
Speaker 1: for someone finding a way to make bullfights less ethical.
28:15
Speaker 1: It was actually really impressive.
28:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that is true. It's that probably
28:19
Speaker 2: is the less ethical reason. It's also terrifying that he
28:22
Speaker 2: figured that out.
28:23
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, cause for sure there.
28:25
Speaker 2: Have been so many years since to figure out even more.
28:29
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. The CIA was so into mind control,
28:32
Speaker 2: and they were especially into controlling groups, like it would
28:37
Speaker 2: be really inefficient to put all of this energy into
28:41
Speaker 2: controlling like one person at a time, So they were
28:43
Speaker 2: trying to control groups, and they especially wanted to control
28:49
Speaker 2: black people and poor people and people who might bitch
28:53
Speaker 2: about the government not treating them properly.
28:56
Speaker 1: And uh, what.
28:59
Speaker 2: It seems like they were doing in Guyana was trying
29:04
Speaker 2: to get as many black people as possible to move
29:08
Speaker 2: there under the guise of This is where black activists
29:12
Speaker 2: go like this is this is a utopia, like Jim
29:15
Speaker 2: Jones I think was supposed to be one of the
29:18
Speaker 2: faces of that, because almost up until the very end,
29:23
Speaker 2: that was his whole public image was this guy is
29:26
Speaker 2: building a utopia for black people, and what he was
29:29
Speaker 2: really doing was forcing them into slavery.
29:33
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and it it is generally usually a warning
29:38
Speaker 1: sign when a white guy starts building a utopia for
29:42
Speaker 1: black people, usually a red flag.
29:45
Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, we would, We would certainly question it. Now,
29:50
Speaker 2: that's for goddamn sure, Like yeah, yeah, but.
29:53
Speaker 1: Back then Jim Jones would get yeah, he would get canceled.
29:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, but back then, like people were buying, people really thought.
30:01
Speaker 2: And here's the thing. That's the other thing that makes
30:04
Speaker 2: me feel like this was obviously a government plot of
30:07
Speaker 2: some sort, because it didn't take much to know that
30:12
Speaker 2: Jim Jones was a fucking criminal way before he moved
30:15
Speaker 2: to California, like any of that, Like it was so obvious,
30:19
Speaker 2: and he clearly had some level of protection that allowed
30:24
Speaker 2: him to just be this egregious, terrible criminal for years
30:29
Speaker 2: and years and years, but also become kind of a
30:30
Speaker 2: media celebrity, Like right, right, someone has to be overseeing that.
30:35
Speaker 1: But yeah, the media has always been obsessed with with
30:40
Speaker 1: charming monsters, though at the same time that's true.
30:45
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know, I just I wish I
30:49
Speaker 2: could go back and see more of like the original
30:54
Speaker 2: coverage of Jim Jones. I mean a lot of it's
30:56
Speaker 2: out there. Yeah, but what a weird fucking guy. What
31:00
Speaker 2: a weird guy to like rise to that level of
31:04
Speaker 2: fame and then yeah, just to get you and all
31:07
Speaker 2: your followers murdered by the c I A at the end.
31:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the footage that at least that I've seen
31:14
Speaker 1: of him, which is not admittedly not like an extensive
31:17
Speaker 1: but he's he's one of the like most unappealing of
31:24
Speaker 1: these like charismatic cult leader types. I don't find any
31:29
Speaker 1: I don't you like sometimes you know, like you know,
31:31
Speaker 1: you're David.
31:32
Speaker 2: Koresh's I was just gonna says.
31:37
Speaker 1: Like Koresh is up there, but like, just you know,
31:42
Speaker 1: even though they're you know, you know that they're bad
31:44
Speaker 1: people or whatever, you can at least see what other
31:48
Speaker 1: people see in them. And with Jim Jones, it's just
31:52
Speaker 1: really tough. It's a tough sell for.
31:54
Speaker 2: Me, it is, and I think that's part of why
32:00
Speaker 2: he went for the demographic he went for because one
32:04
Speaker 2: characteristic about Jim Jones is he wouldn't come to a
32:07
Speaker 2: community and start trying to recruit everyone in the community.
32:11
Speaker 2: He wanted impoverished black people. That was his demo. And
32:17
Speaker 2: I think he was just trying to get people that
32:21
Speaker 2: one were desperate obviously and looking for a way out
32:25
Speaker 2: of the situation they were in, and also someone who
32:29
Speaker 2: would go, yes, it is actually the government's fault, like
32:33
Speaker 2: this is everything is coming for you in the United States,
32:37
Speaker 2: so we should probably get the fuck out of here
32:39
Speaker 2: and we can hide from the government. All the while,
32:43
Speaker 2: I think it was the CIA going, yeah, I get
32:45
Speaker 2: black people to move to Guyana, because even Forbes Burnham
32:49
Speaker 2: when he takes office, he starts trying to get black
32:52
Speaker 2: people to move from the UK to Guyana. And there's
32:55
Speaker 2: a quote from Forbes Burnham where he says, exploit the exploitable.
32:59
Speaker 1: Crass dicter slogan I would say.
33:02
Speaker 2: And I honestly think that is what I think. Forbes
33:06
Speaker 2: Burnham and the CIA were trying to team up and
33:10
Speaker 2: make Guyana a place that black activists would flee to,
33:13
Speaker 2: thinking it was some kind of utopia and then they
33:16
Speaker 2: would get there and basically be slaves. That's what happened
33:20
Speaker 2: at Jonestown, Like it was sold as one thing, and
33:22
Speaker 2: then you were forced into sixteen to eighteen hours of
33:26
Speaker 2: labor a day once you got there, right. And the
33:28
Speaker 2: thing about Jonestown, even where it's at, is important because
33:33
Speaker 2: there's a whole two thirds of Guyana that Venezuela claims
33:37
Speaker 2: is theirs. And yeah, it's a border dispute that's been
33:40
Speaker 2: going on for decades and decades and even flared up
33:43
Speaker 2: again in like twenty nineteen. Jonestown was in that disputed area,
33:48
Speaker 2: right near the border of Venezuela. And I think there
33:52
Speaker 2: were two reasons for that. One shit ton of resources
33:55
Speaker 2: there gold, like all kinds of minerals, and like that's
33:59
Speaker 2: that's where Venezuela eventually found all that oil. So if
34:03
Speaker 2: you're gonna set up a big forced labor operation, you
34:06
Speaker 2: might as well do it on top of a goal,
34:08
Speaker 2: a literal gold mine. But also putting it there meant
34:12
Speaker 2: if Venezuela ever wanted to claim that territory, they would
34:17
Speaker 2: have to go through an encampment of Americans first, and
34:20
Speaker 2: then that would give us a reason to get involved.
34:23
Speaker 2: In that conflict because we're not gonna let Venezuela have
34:26
Speaker 2: all those resources even though they have them now exactly.
34:29
Speaker 1: And that's a that's that is a classic American foreign
34:34
Speaker 1: policy maneuver to put Americans, you know, make sure you situate,
34:38
Speaker 1: like US bases and these sorts of things, you put
34:41
Speaker 1: them in a place where, you know, so if it
34:45
Speaker 1: maybe it's contested, maybe both sides are just antsy, and
34:49
Speaker 1: then you know, if you want to make sure it
34:51
Speaker 1: swings one way or another, you put a bunch of
34:53
Speaker 1: Americans there, and then that makes people think twice.
34:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. And when it comes to just conspiracy theories in
35:00
Speaker 2: general in this country, a lot of times the really
35:03
Speaker 2: fantastical shit is just kind of covering something also atrocious,
35:09
Speaker 2: but a little more mundane, like how Bush did nine
35:13
Speaker 2: to eleven? The government would love to have us believe that,
35:16
Speaker 2: because then we're not saying, well, did Saudi Arabia do
35:18
Speaker 2: nine to eleven?
35:19
Speaker 1: Right? Exactly?
35:20
Speaker 2: Most of them were from Saudi Arabia, because that's our
35:23
Speaker 2: ally and we're not going to question that. Yeah, And
35:26
Speaker 2: I feel like with Jonestown, it could be as simple
35:30
Speaker 2: as okay, we want that there, so Venezuela won't invade,
35:35
Speaker 2: and we can do whatever we want in Guyana and
35:38
Speaker 2: we don't give a fuck what you do. Just stay
35:41
Speaker 2: there and try to recruit Americans and that's it. Like
35:45
Speaker 2: I think the CIA sometimes does shit that gets away
35:48
Speaker 2: from them. We covered a group called the Finders not
35:54
Speaker 2: too long ago. I still owe people a second episode
35:56
Speaker 2: about that. But the Finders, it seems like the CIA
36:01
Speaker 2: started them as a propaganda thing and it just on
36:05
Speaker 2: its own spun off into a sex cult that was
36:08
Speaker 2: like trafficking kids, and the CIA like once it was
36:11
Speaker 2: found out, the CIA was like, whoops, but you can't investigate,
36:15
Speaker 2: and they just shut all the investigations into it down.
36:19
Speaker 2: And like Jonstown could just as easily just be that.
36:22
Speaker 2: It could just sure like that could have been the
36:25
Speaker 2: beginning and end of it is strategic location, so we
36:28
Speaker 2: can do whatever the fuck we want in Guyana. Even then,
36:30
Speaker 2: it's pretty fucking crazy.
36:32
Speaker 1: Oh sure, absolutely, very plausible also.
36:35
Speaker 2: But something about all the drugs that were found there
36:38
Speaker 2: make me think it's more than that, because it's not
36:40
Speaker 2: like they found party drugs. They found massive stockpiles of
36:45
Speaker 2: the exact same drugs that the mk Ultra experiments were
36:50
Speaker 2: centered around, like there's not a single true crime show
36:53
Speaker 2: cop that would let a murderer get away with a
36:56
Speaker 2: coincidence like that. Those are the moments where you would
36:59
Speaker 2: hear I always say there's no such thing as coincidences,
37:03
Speaker 2: but I don't know the drugs. It's the drugs, not
37:07
Speaker 2: just the drugs, but just the fact that it's in
37:09
Speaker 2: Guyana at a time when the CIA is actively trying
37:14
Speaker 2: to recruit black people to come to Guyana to be
37:17
Speaker 2: trained as mercenaries, and then there's also this shady quasi
37:23
Speaker 2: religious figure who at the exact same time is trying
37:27
Speaker 2: to recruit black people to come to Guyana to be
37:31
Speaker 2: forced labor. There is no way those two things are
37:35
Speaker 2: not connected. There's no fucking way. I don't care what
37:39
Speaker 2: the rest of this book says.
37:41
Speaker 1: There's no goddamn way, right, it would be unlikely, I
37:44
Speaker 1: would say, very unlikely.
37:46
Speaker 2: And what's crazy is Jonestown wasn't even the only Jonestown
37:50
Speaker 2: in Guyana. For one thing, it's brought up in one
37:55
Speaker 2: of the articles that will link to for this episode.
37:57
Speaker 2: There are maps of Guyana from around that time that
38:02
Speaker 2: some of them show Jonestown in a completely different spot.
38:05
Speaker 1: Huh.
38:06
Speaker 2: But then there's also one that shows Jonestown, and then
38:09
Speaker 2: like twenty five miles away there's a place called Johnstown
38:11
Speaker 2: and what the fuck was that?
38:13
Speaker 1: But confusing naming.
38:15
Speaker 2: Then there's the House of Israel, which is what a
38:18
Speaker 2: lot of people came to call the other Jonestown. That
38:22
Speaker 2: was another weird community that popped up in Guyana, and
38:26
Speaker 2: just like Jonestown, headed up by a shady American criminal
38:31
Speaker 2: parading as a religious figure, except this guy was more
38:34
Speaker 2: of an actual religious figure. That doesn't mean he's yeah,
38:39
Speaker 2: good and honest.
38:41
Speaker 1: But sure also like you know, he was you know,
38:45
Speaker 1: on bail for like extortion or something. Right, Well, you know,
38:49
Speaker 1: I don't know, but when we talk about I mean
38:53
Speaker 1: the fact that, well you'll talk about who he was,
38:56
Speaker 1: but I don't know, seems a little less shady in
38:59
Speaker 1: general than Jim Jones.
39:02
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, definitely. For one thing, his followers don't really
39:07
Speaker 2: report any of the beatings and abuse that the Jonestown
39:13
Speaker 2: people were getting. But this group, they were called the
39:16
Speaker 2: House of Israel, and they were run by a guy
39:18
Speaker 2: named Rabbi David Hill, and he decides to move to
39:22
Speaker 2: Guyana after they start propping Guyana up as this place
39:27
Speaker 2: where black activists should come to escape the oppressiveness of
39:32
Speaker 2: the United States government, and he ends up fleeing after
39:35
Speaker 2: these extortion charges, which even then, the extortion charges are
39:40
Speaker 2: in relation to this campaign. He went on about how
39:44
Speaker 2: McDonald's had almost no black franchise owners in the city
39:49
Speaker 2: of Cleveland, and somehow that campaign ended in extortion charges.
39:54
Speaker 2: So even then, I'm like, I need to read that
39:57
Speaker 2: fucking court report before him sold on that.
40:01
Speaker 1: I would say citation needed, Yeah, I would. I would
40:04
Speaker 1: love to love to know more about that, because yeah,
40:08
Speaker 1: that sounds like some some bullshit.
40:10
Speaker 2: And personally, I think this guy, unlike Jim Jones, did
40:16
Speaker 2: go to Guyana believing it was a haven for black revolutionaries.
40:20
Speaker 2: For sure, I don't think I think Jim Jones feels
40:24
Speaker 2: like a more deliberate and insidious thing. But I feel
40:28
Speaker 2: like this guy maybe just bought it because he's black.
40:31
Speaker 2: He's right, another big difference between him and Jim Jones. Yes,
40:37
Speaker 2: always always a lot more comforting when a black person
40:40
Speaker 2: is leading a group of thousands of black people. He's
40:44
Speaker 2: opposed to the one white guy in the room, and he.
40:46
Speaker 1: Was like a black power revolutionary, like you know, this
40:50
Speaker 1: is a this is a pretty ethical track record, I
40:54
Speaker 1: would say before going to Guyana.
40:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, then he then they get to Guyana and yeah,
41:00
Speaker 2: they basically become the muscle for Forbes Burnham's government. So
41:07
Speaker 2: if like they would break up strikes, they would break
41:11
Speaker 2: up protests, they would not they were bad. They would
41:16
Speaker 2: influence voting, all the bad stuff, very bad things were
41:21
Speaker 2: they were like Forbes Burnham's side police.
41:23
Speaker 1: Basically it's yeah, it's disappointing, Like it's very anti revolutionary.
41:28
Speaker 1: It's just very you know, seemingly against the ethos that
41:33
Speaker 1: drove them there in the first place.
41:35
Speaker 2: And it's part of the reason why I feel like
41:38
Speaker 2: they didn't know this was a CIA thing, Like I
41:42
Speaker 2: feel like they legitimately moved there because one of the
41:45
Speaker 2: reasons that they give for why they took this turn
41:48
Speaker 2: and start becoming like this violent side wing of the
41:52
Speaker 2: Burnham regime is that they saw him also as a
41:57
Speaker 2: revolutionary and someone who legitimately was trying to set up
42:02
Speaker 2: Guyana as a place where black activists and revolutionaries could
42:06
Speaker 2: go and thrive. And little do they know, he's working
42:10
Speaker 2: pretty much directly with the CIA. Right, there's a book
42:14
Speaker 2: that I'm gonna do an episode about soon called The
42:18
Speaker 2: Cult of Intelligence and the or The CIA and the
42:21
Speaker 2: Cult of Intelligence by Victor Marchetti, first book the government
42:24
Speaker 2: ever censored, and one of the things that they wanted
42:29
Speaker 2: censored from this book was Victor Marchetti's claim that the
42:33
Speaker 2: CIA had been directly paying Forbes Burnham the whole time
42:37
Speaker 2: he was in office. And this was in seventy seven,
42:40
Speaker 2: so it was a year before Jonestown even happened. So
42:44
Speaker 2: I don't know if this group knew what kind of
42:47
Speaker 2: involvement Forbes Burnham had with the CIA. Like, right, I
42:52
Speaker 2: will definitely give this group credit for not slaughtering all
42:54
Speaker 2: of their followers. Yeah, no, big ups, big ups on that,
42:59
Speaker 2: especially because there were more like eight thousand people in
43:02
Speaker 2: this group.
43:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, a small army.
43:05
Speaker 2: But you might say they were still even though they
43:08
Speaker 2: were an actual religious group and they were a little
43:10
Speaker 2: more mainstream, they were still viewed as being a cult
43:14
Speaker 2: in Guyana, especially after Jonestown happens. After the Jonestown massacre,
43:21
Speaker 2: then of course people are like, there's the new Jim Jones.
43:25
Speaker 2: You know, whether it was fair or not, but I
43:28
Speaker 2: think just the fact that that was running at the
43:31
Speaker 2: same time as Jonestown and the same time that the
43:35
Speaker 2: CIA is paying money directly to Forbes. Burnham Like, I
43:39
Speaker 2: feel like it's not that Jonestown was a CIA experiment.
43:43
Speaker 2: I feel like Guyana was a CIA experiment, like the
43:47
Speaker 2: whole fucking country.
43:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean really, you could even broaden that to
43:52
Speaker 1: say that South America was a CIA experiment for a
43:57
Speaker 1: good period of the twentieth century.
43:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, colonialism, baby, it's what we doly like that
44:03
Speaker 2: is kind of what Guyana was. We showed up, we
44:06
Speaker 2: started bringing a lot of Americans there and set to
44:10
Speaker 2: exploiting the people in the resources.
44:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't use smallpox anymore. We just use cults
44:17
Speaker 1: and information technology and that sort of thing.
44:21
Speaker 2: A tale as old as time.
44:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're gonna wrap this up with the next
44:26
Speaker 2: free episode. It's just really getting unwieldy. And I don't
44:32
Speaker 2: know about anyone who's listened to these episodes, but I
44:34
Speaker 2: really don't need to be convinced any further that the
44:38
Speaker 2: CIA was in fact in Jonestown.
44:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:40
Speaker 2: Like I said, by nineteen eighty, if nothing else, this
44:44
Speaker 2: was mainstream talking points.
44:46
Speaker 1: But yeah, we've just it's just fallen out of favor
44:49
Speaker 1: to talk about that sort of.
44:51
Speaker 2: Thing, conspiracy theories in general, Like we've we've come out
44:55
Speaker 2: that other end now where anything that has the tag
44:59
Speaker 2: cons smpariracy theory attached to it, like people are hesitant
45:03
Speaker 2: to even bring it up, or it's not treated as
45:06
Speaker 2: a serious thing. But this is very serious.
45:10
Speaker 1: It is, it's interesting, it's it's really not even in
45:13
Speaker 1: our media anymore. I like political thriller used to be
45:17
Speaker 1: like a full genre that especially you know, in the
45:20
Speaker 1: seventies was like the height of it. Uh And I
45:24
Speaker 1: don't feel I can't even remember the last successful political thriller,
45:30
Speaker 1: you know, like there just aren't very many usually there,
45:32
Speaker 1: or if there are, they're about deep history, not about
45:35
Speaker 1: anything even resembling current events.
45:38
Speaker 2: Fucking Da Vinci code or something like that.
45:41
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if we could call that a
45:44
Speaker 1: plow Come on, come on. The Opus day. I don't
45:48
Speaker 1: think is quite on the same level as the CIA.
45:52
Speaker 2: They're probably run by the CIA, and for all I.
45:56
Speaker 1: Know, you know, I don't think the CIA is trying
45:59
Speaker 1: to hide that may coat yard is Jesus's like great
46:03
Speaker 1: great great granddaughter or whatever.
46:05
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about the CIA. People make jokes at
46:09
Speaker 2: me a lot about Oh, don't get disappeared by the CIA.
46:13
Speaker 2: There is nothing that could ever be done in the
46:15
Speaker 2: history of the world that would bring the CIA to
46:19
Speaker 2: justice over Jonestown. That ship has fucking sailed. This is
46:24
Speaker 2: not a cold case that's going to be solved by DNA.
46:27
Speaker 2: We are basically admiring the work of master criminals by
46:32
Speaker 2: doing that.
46:32
Speaker 1: This podcast, it's like exaamining Alexander's conquest of Persia, Like
46:39
Speaker 1: you're just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I mean millions died,
46:42
Speaker 1: you know, he conquered that whole region. Uh, It's fascinating.
46:46
Speaker 1: Really when you look at.
46:47
Speaker 2: The CIA is not only I think the most effective
46:51
Speaker 2: and lethal intelligence agency ever, they are by far the cockiest.
46:56
Speaker 2: And here's why I say that. What I'm finding about
47:00
Speaker 2: out Jonestown and pretty much every conspiracy theory is if
47:03
Speaker 2: you write a book about it, CIA put that shit
47:06
Speaker 2: on their website Like they are not They are not
47:09
Speaker 2: hiding from most of this. Like that book I just
47:12
Speaker 2: mentioned that the CIA wanted censored, It's on their website.
47:17
Speaker 2: There's a series of magazines that came out over a
47:21
Speaker 2: span of ten years that were all super critical of
47:24
Speaker 2: the CIA, written by former CIA agents, exactly forty six
47:29
Speaker 2: pages of those are censored by the CIA. The rest
47:33
Speaker 2: they're like, we don't give a fuck, tell.
47:35
Speaker 1: People, Yeah, what are you gonna do about it?
47:37
Speaker 2: Like I think that they're proud of this shit.
47:40
Speaker 1: Of course they are, because I would say, you know,
47:44
Speaker 1: taking away like a super villain motivation. It's they look
47:49
Speaker 1: at it as, you know, a long legacy of protecting
47:54
Speaker 1: American interests at home and abroad or whatever. Like they
47:58
Speaker 1: they've got in their mind they've got no reason to
48:01
Speaker 1: be ashamed of any of the atrocities that they've committed
48:04
Speaker 1: because they've done it for the public good or whatever.
48:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, they would probably post all of these
48:13
Speaker 2: episodes on their website if I asked, Like.
48:16
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah you should. You should ask, and you know,
48:22
Speaker 1: maybe that'll happen, and I would be happy for it.
48:25
Speaker 1: I would love I would love to be on the
48:27
Speaker 1: CIA's website. That would just be so great for me personally.
48:32
Speaker 2: I guarantee we're there. We're both on ACIA website of
48:35
Speaker 2: some sort, just like an intron.
48:37
Speaker 1: Absolutely, one hundred percent. I am an Arab in the
48:44
Speaker 1: United States. I I know that I am on a
48:47
Speaker 1: watch list somewhere, even if it's like a really long one.
48:52
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I'm at the top of
48:54
Speaker 2: any watch list right exactly. But if things get really
48:58
Speaker 2: out of things get out of handle, get to me eventually.
49:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know that when I go to an airport,
49:04
Speaker 1: there is like somewhere in some database, a little thing
49:09
Speaker 1: goes off, like it's a little a little thing, just
49:12
Speaker 1: like oh this happened, okay, all.
49:13
Speaker 2: Right ah yeah, but so yeah, the c I A there.
49:17
Speaker 2: We're not going to crack this case if you think
49:19
Speaker 2: it's coming to that, if you think the big reveal
49:22
Speaker 2: at the last episode is gonna be and now we're
49:24
Speaker 2: ready to bring them to justice. Now we're just gonna
49:28
Speaker 2: end this and be like, fuck, oh heavy.
49:30
Speaker 1: That should that'll be a bigger Patreon goal. You'll need
49:34
Speaker 1: to you'll need to really boost that one up.
49:36
Speaker 2: So I think that's our episode. Uh, next time around,
49:41
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about the White Night. That's what they
49:44
Speaker 2: called it, the night that everyone committed suicide right now,
49:48
Speaker 2: they were all murdered. We're gonna talk about that next
49:50
Speaker 2: and then we're gonna be done because here's the thing.
49:53
Speaker 2: Here's the here's the other thing about Oh, was the
49:56
Speaker 2: CIA involved in Jonestown. I don't know. The first reports
49:59
Speaker 2: of what happened that Jonestown came from the CIA, so
50:03
Speaker 2: they obviously had some connection to it.
50:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, and they just caught it in the local newspaper.
50:10
Speaker 1: They were like, oh, did you see this?
50:12
Speaker 2: It just happened. Crazy, just happened to be in town. Crazy.
50:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
50:16
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, there is one of the top people at Jonestown,
50:19
Speaker 2: a guy named Richard Dwyer, for one, was in a
50:23
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight publication called Who's Who in the CIA.
50:26
Speaker 2: And also Jim Jones can be heard on recordings from
50:31
Speaker 2: the massacre right before all the killings started. He goes,
50:34
Speaker 2: get Dwyer out of here. Uh huh weird, yeah, whoo whoop, whoops,
50:39
Speaker 2: and then Dwyer probably shot Jim Jones on the head
50:42
Speaker 2: on the way out. Who knows?
50:44
Speaker 1: Who knows Dwyers. Dwyers very good with guns.
50:48
Speaker 2: We do know?
50:49
Speaker 1: Now what's that?
50:50
Speaker 2: What's that? Is that?
50:51
Speaker 1: Another?
50:51
Speaker 2: Is this another board game? Like Doctor Doctor?
50:56
Speaker 1: I'm just referencing my one of my favorite references is
50:59
Speaker 1: a Bud Dwyer. That's it.
51:00
Speaker 2: Oh you ever you ever watch that documentary?
51:06
Speaker 1: No, I did not watch the documentary. I've seen the video.
51:09
Speaker 1: It is not the document.
51:11
Speaker 2: The documentary is very sad.
51:13
Speaker 1: He yeah, you've we've talked about it. It sounds sad.
51:17
Speaker 2: It's very depressing.
51:18
Speaker 1: I mean, it resulted in a man killing himself on TV.
51:21
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it's a laugh riot.
51:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so that's usually gonna be gonna be a
51:27
Speaker 2: bummer series of events that leads up to that. So, uh,
51:31
Speaker 2: what do we have to plug? Patreon dot com, slash
51:33
Speaker 2: on pops on Pops, networked out, Supercast dot tech. You
51:36
Speaker 2: can also follow this show on Instagram now at Conspira
51:40
Speaker 2: Pops and also on Twitter at Conspira Pops. Uh, what
51:45
Speaker 2: do you got to plug? Uh?
51:47
Speaker 1: You know, find me on on Twitter at high there
51:50
Speaker 1: hidar I Live Indiana announced. So no, and and you
51:54
Speaker 1: know stand up is illegal, so no, none of that
51:56
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, uh you know, if you if you,
52:00
Speaker 1: if you watch my Twitter, there'll be some stuff going on. Eventually.
52:04
Speaker 1: I got some stuff cooking in the pot, stir in
52:08
Speaker 1: the pot, that sort of thing, all sorts of pot.
52:11
Speaker 2: Things, cooking up the gumbo.
52:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, That's exactly how I would praise it.
52:19
Speaker 2: All right, let's get the fuck out of here. Olivia
52:21
Speaker 2: say goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, everybody, we love you.