Latest / Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement / #016-"Moore...about Brady List"

Transcript

#016-"Moore...about Brady List" · Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement

0:23
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, Blue Grit family.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: We have got a special guest today, uh, one of our regional TMPA uh attorneys, the man, the myth, the legend, Randall Moore.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Man, welcome.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: Glad to be here.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm waiting for that applause that you hear in the background.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh man, before we dive off into uh into kind of what we're going to talk about today, you guys hit that subscribe button.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh hit the hit go ahead and download these uh these podcast episodes.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Again, this is kind of how we you know we grade our uh analytics.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: My uh co-host is uh he's out of town today, Clint McNear.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: He's got some business to take care of.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: So uh man, we're we were, you know, it's it's unfortunate he couldn't be here today, but he is here in spirit, and uh, you know, I'm sure he'll be tuning in and grading me whenever he listens to this episode.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: So you are such it's such a pleasure for uh you to join us today.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I'm glad to be here.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: This is a a topic that I'm very passionate about.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: It's a big topic across the state.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I know that.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: So, Randall, what uh let's let's let's before we dive off into the topic, let's uh where did you grow up at and how did you get involved involved in TMPA and and uh where'd you grow up and and let's just dive off into that first.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean I was born in West Texas, but we uh we moved to the Arlington area.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: I went all the way through college at Arlington, uh University of Texas at Arlington, then went to SMU law school.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh I've I've practiced in the Fort Worth area, or that's where I've based out of my my whole almost 40 years now.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: What what part of West Texas did you do grew up in?
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Lubbock and then uh Amarella, and then my dad was a trailer salesman, so he went from Lubbock to Amarella and then we came back to Fort Worth.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I got you.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I got you.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: And what brought you guys to Arlington?
2:09
SPEAKER_00: He got transferred to uh uh the regional office at that time, which was based in Fort Worth.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: I got you, I got you.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: And then did did you always know that you wanted to be an attorney?
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh no.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: I I I tried several things, I actually tried to get it into federal law enforcement, and it was just uh it was too hard at that time to do it without either a uh an accounting degree or a law degree.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: So I went to law school to get in with the FBI and interviewed, and I was I think I was 230 pounds at the time, and they said I had to weigh 195.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: They were doing the actual tables at that time, and uh I couldn't do it.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: So uh uh my wife's dad was a professional baseball player, and she said she didn't want to move, so I joined the Tarrant County District Attorney's Office and started out there.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow, wow, that's amazing.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh did you enjoy working there?
3:02
SPEAKER_00: I loved working for the district attorney's office.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh I did it for three to four years for going out, and uh it was a it was a great place to start, great place to learn.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: We had some excellent uh prosecutors at the time and some excellent defense attorneys.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: And so uh that's where I I actually started out working with law enforcement very careful uh closely at that point in time.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, we had district attorney uh Harrison County District Reed McCain, Harrison County District Attorney Reed McCain on several episodes ago.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And he actually made the recommendation that he believes people that are getting into the law uh profession uh as attorneys, he feels like it's it's it's instrumental for them to be somewhat introduced as far as working inside of DA's office as ADAs uh as as a part of their internship, I guess you could say it, or to to to start off working there because it's so instrumental.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Um and there's actually a recruitment crisis going on right now with state offices.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh did you see that whenever you worked for Tarrant County?
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Actually, when I started back in the the mid-80s, uh you know people getting out of law school were going for the higher paying jobs, and uh the district attorney's office paid relatively lower than the the bigger firms.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: But my opinion on it is you know the medical profession has an internship and a residency, and the legal profession doesn't.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: So I viewed my time at the uh Tarrant County Criminal District Attorney's Office as an internship.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: By the time I got out three to four years after starting, I was three to four times ahead of anybody else in my class as far as experience.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: And I just think that that's been a a major uh foundation for my uh my law practice uh today.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, and for the listener, watcher, viewer, uh some people don't, and I I didn't certainly until I went to work for the sheriff's office and and became really in tune with our DA's office there in East Texas.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: They may not know uh really how a DA office is is really structured.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got misdemeanor felony and kind of how that structure is chief deputy or or the chief uh prosecutor.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Can you kind of explain how the Tarrant County DA's office was trying to kind of structure and where you fit in uh there in that puzzle?
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, at the time, the Tarrant County's office uh was split into a criminal section and a civil section.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: I started out uh in the criminal section uh and then uh moved over into the civil section.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: And uh because it wasn't nearly as exciting as the criminal section, I would wander down and do uh some criminal cases uh as well.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: We had misdemeanor felony courts with court chiefs and ADAs assigned to each court.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: And then we also had special units starting at that time.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: We had the gang unit that started uh about the time that I was there.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: We had uh we had uh prosecutors that did nothing but uh uh forfeitures and things of that nature.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: We had an appellate section, and uh then family violence came uh came into being.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: So uh it's a it's a very complex organization in a county like Tarrant or Dallas, you know, where you've uh Harris County, where you've got, you know, I think at the time I was there, we had 250 people working at the DA's office, and that was in the mid-80s.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: And what what would a civil side of the DA's office, what would that include?
6:22
SPEAKER_01: So that way the listener and reviewer wouldn't that don't know uh what what all would that include?
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Well it it's changed um a little bit uh now as I understand it.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: But back when when I did it, we did uh we did protective orders uh on the family violence, we did uh breath test refusal cases, we did uh uh parent parent-child termination cases, we represented.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we represented the hospital district, represent represented the county in uh tort claims, and we represented uh Tarrant County in the civil rights uh 1983 causes of action because you have jail.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and uh there wasn't enough lawyers to go around, so everybody got their their civil rights cases to work on.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh we we did mental health commitments and um we just and we just we did a whatever overflow was there.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how you got your, I guess, your introduction to uh law enforcement, you're really your your contacts.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Is that really what your introduction with TMPA was with working in the DA's office then, or or was it uh kind of later on down in your career path with TMPA?
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, I started representing police officers, law enforcement officials, firefighters, things of that nature while I was at the district attorney's office because in Tarrant County, the criminal district attorney represents the sheriff and and the constables.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: And so uh we had cases where we represented them when I got out.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: Whenever they had a conflict and the and the DA couldn't represent the officer, then I would I did work for several cities representing officers and uh as and firefighters as well.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: I started doing work for TMPA uh I believe about 10 years ago, um when um I think it was about the time that Arlington uh started having a large membership of TMPA members and they were looking to add some uh some legal help in the Tarrant County area.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: I in fact, just just recently they just hit their 20-year mark.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh there, you know, there's two chapters there in Arlington.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: You've got the the the other side uh uh Arlington uh municipal police association, which is us, and then there's the other uh you know POA that's that that's there, and they're they just hit the 20-year mark uh late late March.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: So congrats to them, uh Arlington POA, congrats to you guys.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: And and you're right, they there has been a big growth there at Arlington, uh, as well as you you're very you know impactful there at Grand Prairie.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: A lot of legal calls that come in asked for you.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh so that's kind of where you got your your start with TMPA was about 10 years ago, you said, right?
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: And and I think one of the things that that uh Randy Dubrava appreciated was that uh being a former trial lawyer, you know, trying complex medical malpractice cases.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh that you know, uh TMPA does have litigation, and you know, there are just not that many lawyers that are younger than me that have gotten the kind of experience that lawyers of my era got.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: We had workers' compensation cases.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: We tried a lot of cases.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: And of course, at the DA's office you try, I think I tried 120 cases in three years.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, they weren't all big cases, and then some of them were you know like half-day cases, but we tried a bunch of cases.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: And so TMPA sends me to El Paso, to San Antonio, uh Amarella, wherever, uh wherever they need uh somebody with that type of litigation experience.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I like about it, the fact that I know that whenever, you know, whenever I do take a legal call and it's a bulldog type case, and now now don't get me wrong, we do have some phenomenal, you know, attorneys.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, but one of your strengths is that you are a bulldog and you're a go-getter.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: And you're a non you you don't you don't really put up with bullshit uh for all intents and purposes.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: And so that's one thing I I do love about you.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and it it does have to meet you know the the the right atmosphere.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Your style of representation in certain situations may not be best, but when it does fit, you're the right person for the job.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I I find it, it's it's it's awesome.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a great fit for the right situation.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's uh you know, people ask me how I got to be that way, and I said, I guess it's just a gift, you know.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, you some people can like can they can walk in a room and I piss them off.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And uh, and sometimes there's nothing really wrong with that.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I one of my favorite books is the 33 Strategies of Warfighting, which I read because when I first started practicing law, it was all out assault, you know, never surrender, no retreat.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And I I read this book and it started talking about how in military-wise, that retreat is sometimes an effective strategy to set up an offense.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: And so as I've gotten older, uh, you know, you can only lose your arms and legs so many times, you gotta you can't regroup like you used to.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: So I've tried to do things the second half of the game a little bit more wisely than I did at first.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: But uh and in this arena, uh there's more of a market for aggressiveness than there is in uh uh in a courtroom where you gotta be more civil, which I can be, and I have done that, and it's very painful, but I've done it.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Um But you know what I found is a lot of times, you know, when I first started doing this, I had to call Randy Jabravo and say, Do we win any cases?
11:55
SPEAKER_00: It seems like I lose most of my cases, you know, and because the odds are stacked against us so many times.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and what that officer wants is they want someone to stand up and talk to the other side for them because they can't.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: And so when you go in and you give your officer an aggressive representation if that's what they ask for, and that if that's what the case calls for, they may not win, but they walk out of there and they think, you know, I've had my day, and and they can start getting closure towards whatever was taken from them.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't they don't go sell their job and they don't give it away most of the time.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Somebody comes and takes it.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: And the psychodynamics of that are are just like someone burglarizing your house.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, giving an officer that opportunity to say what they can't say in a chain of command uh meeting is uh a lot of times that's really what they need to move forward.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what we do.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, and the the fascinating thing is that you're one of many, again, uh phenomenal attorneys that we do have on staff.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, as far as contract.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And you really are the extension of our motto uh of the voice of Texas law enforcement.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think you're right.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: I think that sometimes that you know, we the reality is that we don't win every single case that comes through here.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: That's the reality.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Take it for what it is, right now, on record, I will say right now that we do not win every single case that comes through here.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: We don't.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: But by God, we do stand up and say, like, right is right, wrong is wrong, and you're gonna get to stand up and say this is not this is not right.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think that some members want that.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: I think that they would rather, I'm not gonna say lose their case, but I would say that the member wants to have their day to where they get to call their admin to the carpet with their attorney right there with them.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And and what makes TMPA unique, in my opinion, uh, and when I first met with the gang and told them, you know, that I wanted to do work for for TMPA, you know, the my the only condition I had was is if you give me an officer to represent and there's a lieutenant or somebody else above them that we also represent, don't call me off, you know, because I'm gonna take care of my my officer.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: And and you know TMPA will hire two or three different lawyers on a case if they have to, so each officer can get that representation they deserve instead of we're looking out for the good of the association over the good of the officer.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh and and that's Bill, I wouldn't have done it any other way.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't I don't want to sacrifice my client's defense because of the greater good of the association.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: That's not something's gonna happen.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, I know that one of the things that you're extremely passionate about is this huge topic that is going on across the state, uh, and it has to deal with Brady.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I know that it's it's it's plugging the Tarrant County area, it's plugging Dallas County, and quite honestly, it's it's an issue statewide.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh so what's your thoughts on Brady and kind of dive off into what's your thoughts on?
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so let's let's talk about first of all, what is the Brady list?
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people um they think that there's this document in the district attorney's office that they unfold and it's hear ye Brady list.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And they may have a database or a document that they call the Brady list, but there's there's per se there's not a Brady list.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: Um Brady uh originated with Brady versus Maryland, a 1963 Supreme Court case, where the court, uh Supreme Court of the United States ordered that in a criminal case, the def the prosecutor is required, has a has a duty to turn over uh all evidence that might uh exonerate the defendant.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: And so uh what I noticed is that really wasn't that big of a deal.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: All DAs have had that duty since 1963, and and maybe sooner than that, based on case or state law.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: It started becoming a big deal about seven or eight years ago with the St.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Louis uh incidents that were going on when it became uh socially acceptable and desirable to target police officers for political reasons.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: At that point in time, uh the the uh outcry for reforming what was going on in these prosecutions, that's when I really started become seeing it become a big deal.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Um the Texas legislature passed uh 39.14 of the code of criminal procedure, and that is a um that is a discovery uh procedure.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: So basically what is required is that um the uh district attorney shall produce, and they have there's this long list of materials that they have to produce to to the defense.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: And then subpart H, which is the part that I think we're here to talk about mostly, is notwithstanding all this other stuff that you have to turn over, the the state, the prosecution shall disclose exculpatory impeachment or mitigating evidence.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: And so that's when it started amping up and district attorneys started uh requiring police departments to report disciplinary actions against police officers, not just the ones that they found out about through investigating the case, because if you don't ask and you don't know.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: But now now the uh the district attorney's office, you know, now most of them require their departments within their jurisdictional area to report to them disciplinary actions taken against police officers.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: So when I'm talking about the Bray list, I'm talking about just a police officer that has a disciplinary issue or some other issue that gets to the attention of the district attorney that then has to be disclosed to the defense because it might uh be exculpatory impeachment or mitigating evidence.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Now, the intent of that was was good.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's make sure that we're not you know running people through criminal trials and taking away their life and liberty without making sure that they are given due process.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And if you're hiding evidence that would otherwise uh uh result in an innocent verdict, then that's just not right either.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: So the intent was to make sure there was a level play and field that the defendant uh got the evidence that that the state was aware of so that they could get a fair trial and their constitutional requirements could be met.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: The problem with that is is twofold in my opinion.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: Number one, um it has been turned into a political weapon in some cases.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: Now, the majority of the time, you know, most district attorneys uh mean well, they do the right thing.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's not that they don't make a mistake, not that we don't have differences of opinion, but every now and then, and I get a lot of Brady cases, I see that it's being used as a political tool.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, why else would you bring up something that happened 20 years ago uh against a guy that's about to run for constable and put him on the Brady list?
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Because now his political opponent can say, Well, so-and-so is running against me and he's on the brady list, and then they'll start saying things that are misconceptions, which we'll talk about in just a second, and it's being used as a political tool.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: When uh it hadn't been a problem for 20 years or 10 years, or and I've got examples of things being brought up when uh somebody was going to take a position in another department that somebody wanted their friend to have, then they start bringing up, well, he lied on this you know report, and so we need to put him on the Brady list.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Um is it simple disciplinary issues, for instance?
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Let's just say that because I'd heard this and I'm taking legal calls on it.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I had I had a guy in the very I don't want to let I don't want to say the name of the city, a very large metropolitan city in the southeast side of Texas, starts with an H, ends with an N.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay, called in to go to a baseball game.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Called in the sick.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Calling in sick is not something that I think every single listener, watcher, viewer, everybody's done that and may have not felt 100% if you tried what I'm saying.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: And gone to the baseball game.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: A certain supervisor watched this person on the baseball TV.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: It was on my at the game.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: He was braidied for that.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: That's not in my opinion, that is not a brady offensive type situation.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's a good point because you know I've had that exact same scenario.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh officer takes off, goes to Six Flags, you know, wife posted on Facebook, look, we're having a great time at Six Flags, and everybody sees that he's at Six Flags and not sick.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that gets to the the the gray area here, because if you take the the Brady law and to the extreme, anything that you say is untruthful would put you in the disclosure category that would have to be disclosed to the other side.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Um but in in in reality, everybody out there, including probably all 12 people on that jury panel, have done the same thing.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: And they don't consider That untruthfulness, even though you know it, you know, by definition, and it depends on which definition of untruthfulness you use, it is.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: It is a untruthful statement that was put on a police document that was was used uh uh and became part of a government document.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: So the problem that police officers have that that someone that outside of law enforcement uh does not have is that everything they touch is a government document for the most part.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the example that I use contrary to that is you know, your supervisor says that there will be no overtime.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: So your shift starts at 6 in the morning, you get there at 5.45, you clock in at 6 o'clock, so you don't report overtime.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: You've just given the city 15 minutes, but you've lied.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Technically, you've lied because you have uh you falsified a government record.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: You said that you got there at six when actually you got there at 545.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's where one of the things that I'm trying to get people to become more aware of is we got to get back to the days of reason.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And let's let's use some common sense here and quit taking things to the extreme and making everything political.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, do you do you really think that uh that's gonna make a difference in a guilt or innocent verdict?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: It it's probably not going to.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I I represented a doctor who did that very same thing and they were trying to keep her from testifying.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: And uh I said, get up there and say it.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, tell tell a jury that you did that.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And I guarantee you that to the extent I can guarantee anything, I guarantee you the jury's not going to care because 12 of the people on that 12-person panel probably did the same thing last week.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: So let's get back to being reasonable here.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And listen, part of the problem with politics is they're not always reasonable.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: So technically, that would be uh a violation that would require disclosure.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: Um and um but that's what I think the problem has shifted to the to this extreme that it's it's being abused.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I think that's an abusive the system.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: You've got a rule that says we got to do this, I'm gonna use that to get somebody fired and uh or put them on the bra list.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's to me, that's not reasonable.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: That's something you say, don't do that again.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: And you discipline them and or whatever you have to do.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: So part of the problem, in addition to the politics that come into it, is the the ability to abuse it because uh there's a lot of gray area, and I mean some most of the stuff is gonna fall in the gray area.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: But there are some things that are so blatant that everybody knows if you falsify your problem cause affidavit and and somebody gets arrested, you you should be put on the disclosure list.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you accidentally put that you reported to work, it's you know, you came in at 6.12 and you put you came in at 6 a.m., you know, that does that make you a liar?
25:21
SPEAKER_00: No, it makes you a human.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: And and so I don't I I don't think that that's the type of thing that the law was intended uh to cover.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: But the the last part of the problem is there's no way to get somebody, there's no way to fix that.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: Once you put somebody on this, whatever this disclosure list is or whatever this panel is, there's there's no way to uh there's no way to get them off.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And and we've gone and had conversations with the district attorneys.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: We've gotten polygraphs.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: We have, we've had, I've had assistant chiefs go talk to the district attorneys, and um it's complete discretionary.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they pull them off, sometimes they don't.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes they put them on and we'll disclose, but we'll still call you as a witness list, as opposed to we're gonna disclose and we'll never call you as a witness because you know you falsified five PC affidavits.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: So that's the other another part of the problem is there's no standardization, there's no uniformity, and and it's done different in every county that I've I deal with.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: In my opinion, I think that the district attorney, which I think for the most part across Texas, and and it and and what I see in my opinion is that your our biggest problems are at the biggest larger cities, okay?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And because larger cities are becoming far left.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: That's just the reality.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: That's the reality in Texas is that our larger cities are becoming woke and they're becoming far left, and they are starting to you know scrutinize police officers.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: The district attorneys, for the most part, instead of Texas, have been given far much far too much responsibility.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Now for far too long these district attorneys have treated that responsibility with care and respect.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: And now that we're seeing that they're not treating that with the respect that it's is needed.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: What I find interesting is police officers and our members across the state are scrutinized from the general public, from their sometimes their own administrations, and now from the district attorneys.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, police departments have to release stats, UCR reports, body cam footage, everything that they do from the start of their day to the end, everything is recorded.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: Everything on video, on cameras, whether it's in their police department, everything is on camera.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Audio, video, period.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: These district attorneys that put these guys on these brady lists have too much power.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: But where's their recordings of these mistakes that they make?
28:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, and that's one of the things that I was gonna mention later is uh you know, how do we fix this problem?
28:11
SPEAKER_00: And and it's based on the quality of the individual that gets elected into the district attorney's office.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Um and and I've seen it abused in smaller counties almost uh worse than in the bigger counties.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Really?
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Um because in the smaller counties you have a DA and a couple ADAs, and then you have uh elected officials, sheriffs, constables, the chiefs.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: They're all, and even though the chiefs aren't elected, they're still most of the time in a political position because they answer to a city manager or city council.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And and I see it abused on a regular basis in smaller counties.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the larger counties have a process where it's vetted before it's put on the list.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, I know one of the counties near us has a panel, it's got an ADA, it's got a DA investigator, it's got a former uh law enforcement, uh longtime police officer, and somebody else in this four-person or five-person panel listens to the the testimony or the evidence and per looks at it and then makes a recommendation, and then that person will get put on the disclose but called to testify or the disclose, and we will not call them as a witness list.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: That's a pretty good problem.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that that's at least a process.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: That's a process, and you've got you know four or five people that are looking at it, and I think you know, most I don't know how Dallas does it, but I think that that's similar to how they do it in Dallas.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and that that's way stunned up in our area.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that's pretty fair.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: But when you have a district attorney that can say, uh, I'm putting you on the bra list, and I'm not gonna ever uh allow you to testify in my cases.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Then and I started looking for somebody that oversees the DAs, and I can't find anybody.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe the state bar does, but they don't seem too compelled to go after the district attorneys.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: Now, if one of the ADAs messes up, that's different.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: But the elected status of a district attorney gives them some type of you know uh hands-off approach from law enforcement as well as from other politicians.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And district attorneys are politicians, they get elected and they've got an answer to people, and that is the problem right there.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, if they decide to put somebody on their disclosure list and try to ruin their career, there's there's nobody that we can appeal to other than the the masses, the election, you know, the people who elect them.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: And uh that I found yet, and I'm still looking because I'm trying to find a way to deal with a couple of these rogue DAs in a couple of my cases.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: And they just they exercise complete authority and they're they're they're unaccountable, really, and it's kind of scary.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Um because you know, you basically you could indict a ham sandwich, and you can get somebody indicted, you can put somebody on a braid list, you can ruin their career.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Not what not not even mentioning what you do to them mentally when you put a police officer you know on a list like that, and when we haven't even touched that part of it, yeah.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: But um that is part of the problem.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: And and I think you know, there's a lot of misconception out there about what the braille list is.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, first of all, there is no official Brady list.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: We've tried to ask for an open records, and no one's we haven't gotten one yet.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: We're still trying to figure out if we can give us the people that you put on your list and why the process involved so that we can look into it to see if there's anything that we can do.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: And then so far, we've the the AG's office has not compelled a district attorney that I know of to produce their Brady list data.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Do you know of any DA's office in Texas that has an appellant process for the Brady list at all?
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Whatsoever?
32:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't know of any.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, I mean, I know of a few that have the vetting process that we talked about, but but not an appellant process.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: No, and I mean I've and I consider you know Tarrant County to be a pretty reasonable county when it comes to that.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: And and I've gone to their their folks that are in charge of the Brady material and it's and appealed to them like, hey, I've got a polygraph, I've got a file, can we come sit down and talk to you?
32:35
SPEAKER_00: And and they'll listen to you.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: But you know, in the end, this shall release language is so powerful that they fall behind that and say, hey man, I got to turn it over.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: And they don't want to take the chance that if they don't turn it over, and then someone gets convicted and someone raises that issue that they've got a bad conviction.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: So there's no way to appeal it at this point in time.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned a while ago that you've seen an increase within the last several years of the Brady.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Was it the spark of the Michael Morton?
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and for the listener, viewer, watcher that doesn't isn't really familiar with the Michael Morton Act, you may not know this.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh I was I was a detective uh for many years and then was over a uh an investigation unit.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: Anytime that you write down any notes, anything at all, on a traffic stop, uh as a as an investigator, detective, technically that note should be attached to the case file and submitted to the district attorney's office.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: That's all a part of the Michael Morton Act uh over a mishap uh through a district attorney's office some years ago.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: So when that act was was was established, is this what we're seeing as a result of the Michael Morton Act with the I guess not enhancement, but the encouragement or the um I'm trying to look for the words the increase in the Brady lists.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: I I think a lot of it has to do with that it's a multifactorial problem.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this has been momentum has been building for years on this, um and it all just hit the perfect storm, and we started getting this legislation and we started seeing an increase in the Brady cases.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Now, I tell a lot of my officers, you know, I know you're gonna worry about it, but try not to, because in five years it's not gonna be a big deal.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Everybody's gonna be on the Brady list in five years anyway, so it's not gonna make any difference.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that you know, not that's not necessarily true if you lose your job and you can't get hired somewhere, so I understand that.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: But you know, generally speaking, you know, there's a lot of energy in it now.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: The energy will eventually run down, I hope, if we can't get a fix to it.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Um and the more people they put on the brave list for the more you know mundane reasons, the less effect it has.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that that it's gonna, in the end, it will potentially help do itself in because of the abuse.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Now, part of the problem is the misconception that if you're on the list, you can't testify.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have officers call all the time and say, I try to get a job so-and-so, and the chief city can't hire me because I can't testify, or it's illegal to hire somebody on the Brady list.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And and that, and that's not true.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Um the the disclosure law is just that.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: It's a discovery in a criminal case.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: In other words, the things that I can get in discovery in a civil case or a criminal case may be 90% more than what I can put in.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: If I get 100% of evidence, I may put in 10% of it.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: And the other 90% may be inadmissible.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: So uh one thing that needs to be carefully looked at in a brave situation is um keep it in its proper perspective.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, the it's it just requires the district attorney to disclose the information.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Now, if they want to go a step further than that and say, I'm never gonna call you as a witness, then, and I'll talk about that later.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: That that should be on them.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: If they want to let the bad guys go, you know, and stand behind this as a reason to do it, then let them do it and they should be called out for it.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: Let the police officer do their job and present a case.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Because just because you get disclosed doesn't mean it's admissible.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Like in Tarrant County, um I've had officers that have been on the braylist testified five times.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: And one officer was accused of something, uh, he went through the internal affairs process, internal affairs sustained all the allegations.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: We challenged it in arbitration, we won.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: And he just takes that arbitration decision with him to the courthouse and shows it to the, you know, shows it to the judge.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: And and so the DA, the DA there will disclose, then they'll file a motion and limiting to keep it from going in front of the the jury.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: They'll try they'll fight to keep it out of evidence.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And then if the judge allows it in, then they've done everything they can do.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: But they don't they were they were telling me that they're not gonna let a bad guy walk just because a police officer got some discipline.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Because in the end, the jury decides credibility.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's really all the Brady list is, is it goes to the officer's credibility.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Unless they get convicted of a felony, right?
37:28
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole different ballgame.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: But if we got an officer who's accused of untruthfulness and it gets sustained at the internal affairs or the department level, and it goes to DA's office, then the DA has the option of trying to keep that out of evidence because under um Rule 608, uh the only evidence of truthfulness is reputation for untruthfulness.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: You can't get into the specific instances of conduct unless it's a conviction, under and that's in Rule 609.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: So you know what is one incident on the displa on the braid list gonna allow someone to say, well, this officer has a reputation for uh uh not being credible.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: So so just because someone gets on the list doesn't mean that they can't testify, because there's this the rules of evidence still apply.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: And even if it comes in, like in our example of calling in sick, the jury gets to decide the credibility of the witness, and they may decide, you know what, he messed up on that occasion or she messed up on that occasion, but they're not a liar.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: And and that's what I think should be done, and that's what I see a lot of the people around us that are doing it like they're doing it like that.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: So that uh the heads of the department need to be educated on what Brady is and what it's not.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: And it it doesn't mean you can't testify.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's what we're trying to push right now uh for legislation to be changed.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I know that we're working with our legs team right now.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh there is some talk and discussion with bills trying to be pushed for that appellant process, which I think is very, very, very important.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: But to also maybe relinquish or kind of repeal uh or pull back some of that authority with the district attorney and not give them so much power.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because these sheriffs uh here in Texas think that they're the God almighty and law enforcement guy within the counties.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: But the reality is the district attorney is the sitting uh you know, they are the highest power law enforcement officer within that county.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: And think about this the district attorney is part of law enforcement.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're the highest ranking law enforcement officer, not peace officer, but law enforcement officer in that county.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: They have the power to reject or take any case.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: They're the only they're the only person that can actually try that case and get that conviction.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, they they need to be more accountable.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: And um, and that's what we were talking about earlier.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: There's there's no way, there's no oversight of of the district attorneys in that um in that situation.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Um if one of the things that we can do, I think we can, number one, we need to make the district attorneys more accountable.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: And and I and and some there's got to be some agency that over oversees what is going on because it eventually affects the ability of a department to provide public safety if if you've got a DA dictating who and who can and cannot be hired because of the brady list issues.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: And which is in fact what they're doing in some of these cities.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: You can't hire that officer, I'm not gonna call him as a witness.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: You can't hire that one either because I don't want I'm not gonna call them as a witness.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: You have the DA is running the police departments, and that's and that's not right.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: So we could we could do that, we could make DAs uh more accountable by having some kind of oversight.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: Um or or actually we start calling them out when they are gonna let a bad guy go just because somebody reported uh a police officer lied.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: Take this example.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, most of our cities aren't local government code 143.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: There's no objective appeal process.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: If someone says you're lying, you go through the internal affairs process and they conclude you're lying, then you're lying.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: And that gets reported to the DA, and there's no objective evidence of it.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: It's all speculation and conjecture.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: If that, most of the time it's vindictiveness.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: And um, and so you know, there's got to be some something that that can be done about that in 3914.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh which cases are are gonna put police officers on the brain list that are gonna rise that constitutional protected area?
41:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, is it is it one police officer's opinion, one chief's opinion?
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Or do you have to have you know an arbitrator or a panel or a commission decide that uh that the person was untruthful?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we could we could redo 3914 to define what situations are covered on the impeachment part of it, because you know uh by and large, most impeachment evidence probably not admissible in reality.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, all the things that you'd like to impeach somebody with, most times not even relevant.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: So um and I I think that that you know there's 3914 could ref require an appeal process, some kind of objective um review by somebody outside of the district attorney's office.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that the uh legislation or the peace legislation that we were that we were discussing with our ledge team was the either the district judge or somebody higher than the district judge.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: It could it could be a tr it could be a district judge, it could be you know uh even T C Cole or it could be State Office of Administrative Hearings.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean if you can appeal your driver's license to state office of administrative hearings, why why what so why couldn't you appeal something this important to them as well?
43:09
SPEAKER_00: And and that's not, I mean, that's a non-elected person that is a lawyer that's making a decision.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: It's better than what we've got right now.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And you know, because if you get terminated for untruthfulness, you can file your soul appeal, and if you win, then you can use that.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: But if they bring it up 20 years, you know, from when it happened, you're still there.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: You're not you there's no way to challenge that.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: Um we've got to educate our our department heads on what it is and what it's not, and they need to start fighting for officers that they believe in that get wrongfully put on any kind of disclosure list.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: I've got that situation going on right now.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Officer gets terminated for untruthfulness.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: There's absolutely no objective evidence for it.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: In fact, the objective evidence is exactly opposite of that, and another department looked at that file and said.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Said, this is purely retaliation for something you've done.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't place any merit on it, and uh we're gonna hire you.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: And they did.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: And then the department sends it the information to the district attorney.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: New employer goes to the district attorney to fight for its officer.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen that happen a couple of times.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: Most department heads don't do that, but they could do that.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: They could start standing up and saying, we're not gonna fire this officer just because you're not gonna use him.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna let this officer do his or her job, present that case, and if you choose not to do your job and you choose to let the bad guys go, and you want to blame it on this officer who was untruthful based on conjecture and speculation, then you need to answer for that.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh we could we could we gotta have some way to fix this problem, yeah, in my opinion.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: I agree, I agree.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, so uh you you've you've you've touched on Brady.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh you you've you've represented a ass ton of law enforcement officers with TMPA.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: What would the much older, wiser uh Randall Moore tell the younger Randall Moore about law enforcement uh representing officers?
45:21
SPEAKER_01: What would you tell the younger Randall Moore 20 years ago starting up starting in this profession?
45:27
SPEAKER_00: I would say uh tape your ankles and prepare to play hurt.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: And don't get into it unless you're ready for a fight.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Because you know, you gotta be you got to define victory.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: And and victory is not always defined with wins or losses.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Victory in these cases to me is um have I gotten, have I done my best job for my officer?
45:53
SPEAKER_00: Have I given them a voice?
45:55
SPEAKER_00: And do they feel like they had a voice even if they didn't win?
45:58
SPEAKER_00: That's what I would tell the younger people who think that winning a case is is the measure of victory and it's not.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Winning a case is great, and and to some degree you have to win to keep to keep doing the job.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: But uh if you base your level of satisfaction and and success on whether you win or lose in this job, you're gonna be sorely disappointed.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, you got anything else?
46:26
SPEAKER_00: Now what I I would uh I whenever I speak to POAs, I tell police officers they want to know what is it that gets officers in trouble more than anything?
46:39
SPEAKER_00: And I tell them that if it weren't for social media and girlfriends, I wouldn't have a job.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's not hard to remember those two things.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Social media and girlfriends is what keep me in business.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: And everything you touch is a government record, everything you say is uh something that someone's gonna evaluate your credibility for.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if everybody else is doing it, and it's you know, ask yourself, when is it not gonna be okay?
47:12
SPEAKER_00: And if you can't define the time that it stops being okay, then it's not gonna be okay when it's not okay.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: So don't do it.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Just do the best you can, you know, trying to follow the rules and regulations, and and uh you're you're always gonna step in it somewhere.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: But if you're if you're motivated to do the the right thing and and you're careful and you acknowledge that there are landmines that you can step on, um, and this is one of them, then you that's something you can avoid if you see it.
47:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's the best advice I can a solid advice to give.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: And there's some truth behind it, believe me.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: As a guy taking legal calls, there is some truth behind that.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, listen, I'm gonna shoot off three rapid fire questions.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: You ready?
47:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm ready.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: Best line from a cop movie or best cop movie, best police police vehicle, and best adult beverage.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: All right, best line from police movie is Mel Gibson when he says maybe five people in the world could have made that shot.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: I've always changed it to three, and it may have been eight, but it's I tell people like three people in the world could have made that closing argument.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: And so I live that line.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: I I think it was the second uh movie that he made when he was a cop.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, I can't remember the name of the movie now.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: It's uh but you know which one I'm talking about.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: And then uh best police vehicle.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: The one you're not riding in.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: Never heard that answer before.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: The one I'm not riding in.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good one.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: I like the uh I like the DPS Mustangs.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: I thought that the late 80s model.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: I think those were that was the way to go.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: Five O's.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those were awesome.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: And then best adult beverage.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: Um tequila.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: The good kind.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: The good kind.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: They come with a little bell on top.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: Ding the bell.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: With the worm.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, brother, man, I've had a blast.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: This has been a good episode.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Great topics that we've touched on.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: And uh, man, they're they're in the in and important topics.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: Things that needs to uh they they need to change, honestly.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: They're uh they're just important to our profession.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: So you got anything else?
49:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think we're good.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: I think we just gotta keep fighting and fight.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, Blue Grip family, this wraps it up.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: You guys hit that subscribe button and again download these episodes.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: Again, it kind of uh gives us a measure of our analytics.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you guys stay safe.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: God bless you, and as always, may God bless Texas.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: Be safe out there.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: We're out.