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28 - Being Single as a Married Man with David Kosciusko · Masculine Containment

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Masculine Containment Podcast.
• 0:02
  I am really excited today to be doing another member interview.
• 0:06
  These interviews have been so revealing and so interesting to hear the experience that men have going through the training, the martial art-like discipline of masculine containment and the experience in the brotherhood.
• 0:19
  And so today I am honored and privileged to be joined by David Kosciuszko, who is a member of the Brotherhood, who was in our second container.
• 0:29
  David, so good to have you here, brother.
• 0:32
  Thanks, Alex.
• 0:33
  I'm really grateful to be here myself and for all the training that you've provided for me.
• 0:40
  Oh, it's my pleasure.
• 0:41
  It's my pleasure, David.
• 0:42
  Let's actually jump in about that.
• 0:44
  So tell me, tell us, tell everybody who's listening, what was going on for you before you joined the Brotherhood?
• 0:55
  Well, I had been kind of on a spiritual journey.
• 1:00
  I got saved back in 2020 and was trying to kind of re-
• 1:09
  redefine myself in my new life.
• 1:13
  I made a lot of mistakes in my past that I regret and wanted to turn around.
• 1:18
  And I've gotten to kind of a point where, you know, things weren't bad and I'm, you know, I feel like I've grown a lot, you know,
• 1:28
  I read the Bible quite a bit.
• 1:30
  I go to church very regularly.
• 1:31
  I serve on a worship team at our church.
• 1:34
  I go to a lot of support groups.
• 1:35
  I've been going to therapy for years.
• 1:37
  I've been working on myself.
• 1:39
  And I'm not going to go to church.
• 1:41
  I still felt like there was some things that I was missing where I was kind of like at a plateau where things weren't bad.
• 1:48
  But I knew like to get to the next point where I wanted to be as far as intimacy with my relationships and for my wife, I needed more.
• 1:57
  But I wasn't getting the answers, even like in the support groups that I was in.
• 2:01
  It seems like that like.
• 2:04
  They were like advanced problems and it's kind of hard to describe, but like even, you know, even elders and stuff, it was tough to get the real answers that I needed that I was struggling with.
• 2:17
  My wife and I had a pretty decent marriage at that time, but there was some communication breakdowns and there were some blowups and some arguments.
• 2:26
  And I felt like, you know, I'm doing something wrong.
• 2:30
  Like if there's these kind of arguments and there's this friction between us, then I want to work on this.
• 2:36
  And there also was like repeated challenges that I was coming up with, like in my business, with other people, with friends, with church.
• 2:46
  And I'm like, there's something in me that's got to be healed, but I can't figure out what it is.
• 2:51
  And then when I saw your posts about –
• 2:55
  intimacy and some of the things that you were saying about, you know, issues with your wife and stuff like that, I started really connecting with that.
• 3:04
  And I said, you know, this is the kind of information that I'm really seeking right now.
• 3:09
  And...
• 3:11
  I started kind of diving into the, I started reading every one of your posts that you were making and, and it opened my eyes to a lot of things like, wow, there's a whole layer here that I haven't even realized.
• 3:23
  Like I thought I'm doing pretty good with this and I thought I was doing the right way because it's what the Bible says.
• 3:28
  But I think,
• 3:30
  My interpretation of it was probably immature, so to speak, at the point that I was at, not realizing there is a better level of this, a better version that feels better for everybody.
• 3:40
  And it's not with this kind of friction and tension that I was going through.
• 3:47
  I couldn't figure that out on my own, and I knew just something felt awkward.
• 3:52
  So your post really resonated me when I started reading that stuff, and I'm like, you know, I'm kind of like the exact person that you're talking to in these posts.
• 4:01
  I'm making these mistakes, and I'm not realizing that.
• 4:05
  I'm trying to be close to my wife but pushing her away because it's putting pressure on her.
• 4:10
  And I'm thinking that I'm trying to rebuild connection, and I'm trying to...
• 4:16
  Like my whole life was almost like trying to fix my marriage and I didn't realize how much pressure I was putting on my wife to the point of probably smothering her by putting so much effort even just on myself about that.
• 4:32
  And I started becoming aware of that.
• 4:37
  Yeah, no, that was a great, great description.
• 4:39
  What I'd love to understand, you know what?
• 4:42
  I think men find most relatable is like some of the detail and without disclosing anything that you feel uncomfortable disclosing, please.
• 4:49
  But like can you give us some detail on what the friction was?
• 4:52
  Where was the tension in the marriage?
• 4:54
  What was the repeated issues that were going on?
• 4:58
  Well, there was stuff as far as physical intimacy that was there.
• 5:02
  And –
• 5:05
  You know, it was kind of like trying to have that planned connection and time, but I think it was too structured and rigid and kind of expected rather than blossomed, I guess you could say.
• 5:19
  From, you know, through a healthy connection, through real vulnerability, intimacy, there was...
• 5:27
  It was more of like a checklist.
• 5:29
  And I could feel that and everything.
• 5:31
  I hated that checklist feeling.
• 5:33
  And I could feel the lack of warmth from my wife sometime, even though things weren't bad.
• 5:38
  And she loved me.
• 5:40
  And we were still pretty close.
• 5:41
  And we're doing a lot of things together.
• 5:42
  They still, hard to put my finger on it.
• 5:46
  But just that warm connection, I could see it in her eyes when she looks at me.
• 5:51
  And that endearing look.
• 5:57
  It was more just of just a checklist.
• 6:00
  That's how I felt.
• 6:01
  It was like a checklist.
• 6:02
  And and I didn't I didn't like that feeling.
• 6:04
  I didn't want that feeling.
• 6:08
  And I think as far as other things go to just.
• 6:13
  In daily interactions, things with like our kids and.
• 6:18
  just day-to-day duties doing life together.
• 6:20
  There were some communication breakdowns where we had a difference of opinion.
• 6:24
  And I didn't really know how to say that stuff without her feeling that she was being attacked by it.
• 6:29
  So, you know, I was thinking I'm bringing something up nicely and I'm saying something, but then...
• 6:34
  She would get really angry and upset, and then it would snowball from there because I didn't know how to contain that, and I didn't know how to provide the space for her, so it would turn her blow up, and sometimes I'd be storming out of the room or walking away, and I'm kind of ashamed to say this stuff, but in my head, too, I also saw her as part of the issue, not realizing how much I had to work on myself until I really started seeing those things that you were posting.
• 7:03
  So relatable, David.
• 7:04
  It's like once you see your responsibility in it, it's like it's challenging, isn't it?
• 7:08
  It's like you can't unsee it.
• 7:12
  So many men who come to the Brotherhood say that they're losing what you were saying, like that warmth, that connection, that playfulness.
• 7:19
  What did it feel like when you felt that slipping away?
• 7:27
  Well, to be honest, that slipped away a long time ago.
• 7:37
  I don't know if we actually ever really had it except maybe the first few months of our relationship.
• 7:43
  And I think there was a lot of work.
• 7:48
  I've been working on myself for 10 years now and realizing how much I really needed to change about myself in order to have more healthy connections with others.
• 8:02
  So it feels good.
• 8:04
  I'm starting to see results now from the stuff that you taught me and I'm seeing those things.
• 8:08
  But I can't say it felt to lose it because I don't know if I really had it up to that point.
• 8:13
  I just know it doesn't didn't feel right.
• 8:16
  It felt too cold to me, like not not emotionally charged, not not that spark.
• 8:23
  And that's what I was looking for.
• 8:26
  Yeah.
• 8:26
  So tell us about that.
• 8:27
  What did it feel like to be in that place?
• 8:29
  When you say emotional charge, what I hear is like, you didn't feel emotional connection or you didn't feel that deep level of connection.
• 8:37
  What does it feel like when you're in that place where you don't have the emotional charge?
• 8:40
  You don't have that spark.
• 8:43
  What does it feel like without that spark?
• 8:45
  Yeah.
• 8:46
  What did it feel like?
• 8:47
  Yeah.
• 8:50
  Uh...
• 8:51
  Here's the reason I asked, David.
• 8:52
  I think a lot of men are existing in that place where they don't feel that, but they don't realize it.
• 8:57
  You had the presence to realize it, to see that it wasn't there, to see that something was missing.
• 9:02
  That's why I asked that.
• 9:04
  The biggest thing I could describe it was like being single.
• 9:08
  as a married man, it felt very cold and alone.
• 9:12
  Lonely, I guess, is probably the biggest word.
• 9:14
  If I could describe it in one word, would be lonely.
• 9:17
  Being with someone next to you, being there with my wife, spending time with her, but being lonely while doing that.
• 9:23
  I think that was the feeling.
• 9:27
  Sounds difficult.
• 9:29
  Sounds like constraining, like kind of, I don't know, when you say that, I feel like kind of pressure all over my body.
• 9:39
  it's sad of me.
• 9:41
  It caused me to grieve quite a bit, and I longed for that and wanted it, but I didn't really know how to create that or give the space for it.
• 9:52
  And there was times for connection.
• 9:55
  There was genuine times where, especially from working for myself, I have learned a lot, and there have been moments like that, but the other moments were outweighing that, and I wanted that to be like that all the time.
• 10:06
  I wanted it...
• 10:07
  You know, we'd have like a few good days and then something would happen and it would, you know, any work that I did would be gone for two weeks now until I rebuilt that again.
• 10:18
  And it was just too long between those repair periods.
• 10:22
  What were those two-week periods like?
• 10:23
  Was it just distance living like roommates?
• 10:29
  You know, there's so many different aspects.
• 10:31
  One is like I would have a tendency to try harder because I want to fix it, you know.
• 10:35
  So I'm trying to get closer.
• 10:37
  I'm denying my own principles and myself because I'm trying to ignore all these things that –
• 10:43
  We did have an issue with just to repair quickly, but then I'm violating myself when I do that, you know, because I'm ignoring things that were probably, you know, real issues.
• 10:52
  And I'm just doing it for the sake of trying to repair a piece.
• 10:55
  But then it comes, it just comes right back.
• 10:57
  So I think I was living out of integrity with that.
• 11:01
  And then there's also the...
• 11:05
  just the cold stare at each other when you walk by, you know, just look like, Oh, don't say anything.
• 11:09
  I won't say anything.
• 11:10
  Let's just, just not do anything right now.
• 11:14
  And because we're just not there yet, that, that kind of thing.
• 11:17
  And, and that's worse too, because you want that connection and the other person's right there, but you just don't want to say anything.
• 11:22
  And then, and that's sometimes was better because if I did say something, it just start up again.
• 11:27
  And we were right back to where we were the day before arguing.
• 11:30
  And, um,
• 11:34
  And then it was just the time sitting on the couch watching a movie knowing that something feels off.
• 11:42
  It's like, okay, we just had a fight and you say you're fine, but you're not fine and I'm not fine.
• 11:47
  I could feel it, you know, and we're going to just pretend everything's fine and we're going to sit here and kind of numb ourselves in front of this TV together.
• 11:54
  But I don't think this is what either of us want and I don't know how to go forward from that, I guess.
• 12:00
  It's kind of the last thing I would say as far as those feelings.
• 12:03
  Yeah.
• 12:04
  Yeah, that totally makes sense.
• 12:06
  I think when so many men come to the Brotherhood, they're in a similar situation, but they feel completely isolated and they're like the only ones.
• 12:14
  And it feels like you kind of felt a lot of that isolation, that – well, you said loneliness.
• 12:20
  Did you feel like you were the only guy going through this?
• 12:24
  You know, it's not something a lot of people talk about, like even in church and support groups, I guess, especially like physical intimacy, it's a very sensitive topic.
• 12:34
  So a lot of people don't talk about that.
• 12:36
  And...
• 12:40
  it's a hard struggle because it's tough to find men that you can open up to, that you can feel comfortable, and that also can give you good feedback because there's a lot of people who are struggling, I think, trying to figure it out.
• 12:53
  So it's actually hard to get good quality advice and leadership as far as this goes and hard to seek it out too because, like I said, it's not like something that's easily spoken about by people, even in the church.
• 13:07
  So difficult to find the help, I guess, for it.
• 13:10
  Yeah.
• 13:11
  Yeah, no, I totally understand.
• 13:12
  Believe me, I've been very, very similar situation.
• 13:17
  What made you decide to join the Brotherhood?
• 13:20
  You said you read the Facebook post.
• 13:21
  Was that really the catalyst for you jumping in?
• 13:25
  Well, I know I had been following you for a while before that and I respected you in the business field.
• 13:32
  Yeah.
• 13:33
  And I saw that you were a man of integrity.
• 13:36
  And then I saw – when I saw those posts that really resonated, I'm like, oh, this is the help I really need.
• 13:41
  So when you said you were opening up a container group, I just jumped at that because I was like desperate for the help at that point, willing to do whatever I could.
• 13:49
  Yeah, I guess that's what we were doing.
• 13:52
  I'm so glad you did, David.
• 13:54
  Yeah, you were one of the most active participants in the group.
• 13:58
  Did you have any hesitations about joining him?
• 14:04
  No, I couldn't get in fast enough, honestly.
• 14:13
  I mean, honestly, I cried after you said I could do the – you let me in.
• 14:17
  I was like, wow.
• 14:19
  Because, you know – Take a second.
• 14:25
  Take a second.
• 14:25
  You don't have to rush, brother.
• 14:26
  You don't have to rush.
• 14:28
  I have been struggling for that for a while now and it's –
• 14:31
  It was like, all right, someone's going to help me with this.
• 14:34
  Yeah.
• 14:37
  Thanks for sharing your emotions, David.
• 14:39
  I appreciate you, brother.
• 14:40
  And thanks for being so raw and so open at what men are going to relate to.
• 14:44
  And that's why we do these podcasts.
• 14:46
  Thanks for expressing such a massive amount of masculine presence in this moment and being okay with just expressing yourself exactly as you are.
• 14:58
  Thanks, Alex.
• 14:59
  I appreciate it.
• 15:01
  Yeah, you got it, man.
• 15:02
  You got it.
• 15:03
  This is why I loved having you in the group.
• 15:07
  You never hit anything and I never felt like I was talking to you any type of masking.
• 15:12
  I just felt like I was always getting like the real you.
• 15:14
  And so I'm really excited for the people that are listening to this podcast to be able to see who you are and your character and how much you care.
• 15:22
  Oh, thanks.
• 15:23
  I appreciate that.
• 15:25
  Yeah, for sure.
• 15:28
  So you jumped at it.
• 15:29
  You got into the brotherhood.
• 15:32
  Give me an idea of those first few experiences.
• 15:35
  What came up for you?
• 15:37
  What did you experience when you started coming to the calls and seeing the content and meeting the other men that were in the group?
• 15:46
  Well, I think the first thing that hit me was hearing the other guys in the group having the same struggles.
• 15:51
  And I was like, oh, it felt like –
• 15:54
  I felt like almost like I was at home, like, all right, this is exactly what I needed.
• 16:00
  I'm so glad to be here.
• 16:03
  And the next thing that happened was when you asked us to commit for the next eight weeks and that we had to commit to just staying through whatever was happening and to not react, you know, I.
• 16:20
  Or get upset, you know, to stay present and to be contained.
• 16:24
  Yeah, the nonviolence commitment.
• 16:26
  Yeah.
• 16:27
  I think having the permission to do that was a big change for me because when I started just thinking, okay, this is, you know, at first I was like, oh, I don't know if I'll be able to do this because that sounds really hard and I've been struggling with this a long time, but I'll try.
• 16:41
  And I think just trying helped me a lot because the first time I got in an argument with my wife...
• 16:50
  You know, she actually was like, oh, look, now you're going to go walk away.
• 16:53
  You're going to withdraw.
• 16:55
  And I was like, you know what?
• 16:56
  You're right.
• 16:57
  I do that.
• 16:57
  And I'm not going to do that anymore.
• 16:59
  I'm going to sit down and I'm going to talk to you.
• 17:01
  I'm sorry.
• 17:02
  I was a jerk for doing that.
• 17:04
  And I shouldn't have done that.
• 17:05
  And I'm going to hear I'm going to sit here and I'm going to be president.
• 17:08
  And then it was it was like.
• 17:11
  I already saw progress just from doing that.
• 17:13
  Oh, tell us about it.
• 17:17
  Well, she looked shocked, like, oh, she didn't expect to hear that.
• 17:22
  And...
• 17:28
  And she actually talked to me.
• 17:30
  She actually opened up.
• 17:31
  And, you know, I didn't really love hearing some of the stuff she was saying to me.
• 17:36
  But I was like, okay, I promised Alex I'm going to stay with this and I'm going to stay.
• 17:39
  And then as I let her get it out, she was like, well, it's like, you know what?
• 17:43
  Actually, maybe I'm being a little bit harsh myself.
• 17:45
  And I think sometimes that...
• 17:47
  That's what it is, is we would escalate like that.
• 17:49
  And because I would withdraw, there was never the cooling off period for her to just get out her feelings and emotions and feel safe with me.
• 17:58
  And when I saw that, I was like, oh, wow, this really works.
• 18:02
  So I'm seeing some progress.
• 18:04
  So that was where I was really excited about learning more after that first call.
• 18:10
  That's so interesting.
• 18:12
  You know, what I hear you saying is like even in those early days of containment, even when you really didn't understand the whole process, all you did was just change your behavior and say, hey, you're right.
• 18:22
  I'm not going to leave.
• 18:23
  And you already felt a shift.
• 18:29
  I actually had to do that the other day too.
• 18:31
  I'm just going to be fully transparent because I've axled a couple times and I've really tried to do it.
• 18:38
  But you know how it is learning something new.
• 18:39
  Sometimes you make some mistakes.
• 18:41
  So the other day we were having a heated discussion and I ended up saying, all right, I can't take this anymore.
• 18:49
  And I walked out the door and was going to leave.
• 18:51
  And I stopped and I thought about my – just –
• 18:54
  breathe for a few seconds I said you know I can't do this and I I went back in and I said to my wife I said no I'm not gonna do this I'm sorry I I always do this I'm just I'm gonna listen to you I I'm I realized what I'm doing and uh it's it's not good I re and I I'm gonna be present and I want to have a good day with you and it completely turned things around so I'm glad at least I can catch it now that I'm not perfect
• 19:23
  It's what we always say.
• 19:24
  It's progress over perfection.
• 19:25
  Like when it comes to the discipline of masculine containment, there is no perfection.
• 19:30
  I mean, I lead these classes and I still slip, you know, and I have moments where I have to back up and say, hey, wait, this is a behavior from the past.
• 19:37
  I'm not going to do this anymore.
• 19:39
  But when you do, isn't it amazing how like the entire situation shifts?
• 19:44
  You get into that pattern.
• 19:45
  You're kind of off to the races.
• 19:47
  And when you pull the reins back and slow things down, it's pretty wild, isn't it?
• 19:54
  And I can feel it.
• 19:56
  The more contained that I am, I feel that warmth from her.
• 20:00
  I can feel that connection that I was looking for.
• 20:03
  And we've had some really good moments.
• 20:05
  I mean, despite some of the backsliding, there's been some really, really genuine moments of connection.
• 20:11
  And things have changed a lot since then, but I won't get ahead, so I'll let you continue with the questions.
• 20:17
  Okay.
• 20:17
  No, I'd love to know.
• 20:18
  Like, is there a moment of just I think I think people relate to stories.
• 20:22
  They relate to situations.
• 20:23
  Is there a moment of connection that you can remember and describe to us that would have been wouldn't have happened before?
• 20:35
  There's been quite a bit of those.
• 20:37
  I think.
• 20:42
  I think in general, like my wife sometimes will get really anxious and she has a pattern of anxiety or being stressed.
• 20:51
  And maybe it's me.
• 20:52
  Maybe it's because she doesn't feel safe expressing her emotions.
• 20:54
  So that's what causes the anxiety.
• 20:58
  Lately, and especially now, like she's, as I've been more contained, she's doing things that are a lot more out of her comfort zone than she used to.
• 21:05
  Like now her mom actually got diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
• 21:09
  So she's actually there supporting her mom now, which is really difficult, and her brother and sister and her family, which she's never done that type of stuff before.
• 21:17
  This is all new.
• 21:19
  And I've seen her grow a lot stronger because –
• 21:23
  And I don't want to take the credit, but I've just noticed me being contained has – it seems to have rubbed off or it's giving her the space to be a little bit more emotionally present and stronger.
• 21:33
  And it's like – it's having now like a ripple effect, I guess, in that.
• 21:38
  And there's been some times – and that's growing the strength in the container for me because some of those times –
• 21:44
  She'll come back and emotionally I can understand it's incredibly draining.
• 21:48
  It's very sad.
• 21:49
  It's depressing and awful.
• 21:50
  And I've tried to just be there for her through that.
• 21:53
  And the containment has really helped because sometimes I'm overwhelmed with business or work or I'm tired.
• 21:59
  And maybe in the past I might have been stressed or I've gotten selfish.
• 22:03
  And I just, you know, like, oh, I...
• 22:06
  You know, this is tough to deal with right now, but I've stayed present even when I was tired or struggling, knowing that this is really hard.
• 22:13
  And understanding just that sometimes even when it's really uncomfortable, just being there and being present, even when it's really hard, is sometimes the most important thing I can do, like you said, because that's where the growth really happens in that.
• 22:33
  when it's really difficult.
• 22:35
  And I think she knows that too.
• 22:38
  I think, because she said, there's been a couple times where the next morning she's like, you know, I just really appreciate you as a husband and for all the support that you've been giving me and
• 22:57
  everything you've been doing with my family.
• 22:59
  So, and, you know, those are the things that she never used to say that type of stuff to me before.
• 23:07
  David, take us into that moment.
• 23:08
  What does it feel like for you?
• 23:09
  Like, take us right back to that moment if you can.
• 23:13
  What does it feel like for you and your body?
• 23:14
  What does it feel like for you when you hear from your wife, thank you for what you've been doing for me and for being this type of husband?
• 23:29
  It's like peace, I guess.
• 23:32
  And I guess it's like you feel like you can do anything after that or you want to stick through it harder the next time.
• 23:48
  I want to be there for her to support her and I'm encouraged more to be present for her.
• 23:55
  and to care and also it's a wave of emotions.
• 23:59
  Part of me is like, you know, I think back to all the times where I didn't do this and now that I know it hurts really bad and I don't know if you ever went through this as you learned but it's like, oh, man, I screwed it up so many times and if I'd only known this, you know, the pain that I caused and the pain that I caused myself and her and others just by not knowing these things and what I could do.
• 24:22
  I get hit with that.
• 24:23
  But also the relief is amazing.
• 24:26
  The peace and the feeling of fulfillment of having that kind of relationship with my wife.
• 24:30
  It's like, you know, this is where my whole life has brought me to this moment.
• 24:34
  Like, I feel like I've got to win.
• 24:37
  Yeah.
• 24:38
  Yeah.
• 24:39
  David, I just want to remind you, brother, like when those feelings come up, those feelings of what happened in the past, those feelings of judging your past self, those feelings of like, man, the whole, how many times I screwed this up?
• 24:51
  Like, first I want to, I want to validate you and tell you like, I feel those things.
• 24:55
  And doing the work that I do and being with the brothers in the brotherhood, one of the things I have to constantly remind myself that I was doing the best I could.
• 25:02
  I was doing the best I could with what I had.
• 25:05
  And so many men never get to this place of awareness where you are.
• 25:09
  So many men aren't willing to do this work.
• 25:12
  And so in those moments, I just want you to remember that like self-forgiveness is one of the most important parts of containment, man.
• 25:19
  And I watched you in this container.
• 25:21
  You inspired me over and over again with your questions and with your – the way that you paid attention and the way you showed up.
• 25:28
  And so just know that.
• 25:29
  Just know that, man.
• 25:30
  You are a massive inspiration for me and I know the people listening to this podcast are going to feel the same way.
• 25:36
  And anything you can do to just remember you were doing the best you can and to forgive your past self, brother, because the amount of love that I feel you expressing for your wife and for yourself is so extraordinary.
• 25:55
  Thanks, Alex.
• 25:56
  I appreciate that.
• 25:57
  I guess it's hard to see that sometimes, you know, the.
• 26:03
  I do really appreciate you saying that.
• 26:05
  And honestly, it's great to be here with you talking.
• 26:09
  It's been a few weeks now since the container ended.
• 26:12
  And it's great to be actually talking about this again and be here.
• 26:17
  Yeah, same here, man.
• 26:20
  I have a question.
• 26:21
  So earlier you said –
• 26:24
  You said something that was really interesting.
• 26:25
  I'd like to understand like what your experience was in the brotherhood.
• 26:29
  You said, you know, you were in support groups, you were in groups, you did therapy.
• 26:32
  You sound like you did a lot and the church and Bible groups and that it was hard to find men that you could have these conversations with.
• 26:42
  Was it different in the brotherhood?
• 26:50
  I think in the brotherhood itself, it was a safe space for this type of stuff.
• 26:56
  So I think there's a lot of men that are struggling with the same thing.
• 27:00
  And I've seen so many things actually open up in our church now because I don't know if it's maybe some of the things that I've learned and it's having a ripple effect and everything.
• 27:09
  But –
• 27:10
  Men are now kind of like opening up to me a little bit more and talking about this.
• 27:14
  So I think I think that the safe space that you created through the Brotherhood gave permission to guys to be honest about like what we're going through.
• 27:24
  And just like I said, that was the first thing that resonated with me is hearing the other men in the group going through the same thing I was is like, wow, OK, I feel at home.
• 27:34
  And this is what I really want to learn this stuff.
• 27:37
  Yeah.
• 27:38
  And I think there's other guys out there because, like I said, at church, there's guys asking me a little questions like, oh, I see you guys.
• 27:44
  You know, I've really seen a lot of growth in you guys lately, you know, and like they want to go have a coffee or that type of stuff.
• 27:51
  And so I haven't really – I only told one person I was doing this group or anything, but I think they see some kind of shift maybe in the way I'm approaching things.
• 28:02
  Yeah.
• 28:03
  Well, earlier also in the call, you said before the brotherhood, you were having some issues.
• 28:08
  You shared the issues in your relationship.
• 28:10
  But you also said like in your business and your work and with your kids, has learning masculine containment improved things outside of your relationship as well?
• 28:21
  Oh, like my business has gotten so busy that I can barely keep up with the work.
• 28:29
  And, you know, that I think not to give away like that, I guess the secret sauce or anything.
• 28:39
  I don't know what to say.
• 28:39
  Give it all away.
• 28:40
  You're fine.
• 28:41
  Anything away.
• 28:42
  But like one of the things that you gave me permission in the group was to work on myself.
• 28:46
  Like I think I have spent the last four years trying to fix myself with the purpose of fixing my marriage that I forgot I'm a man who needs to take care of his body and also needs to provide for his family.
• 28:57
  Yeah.
• 28:58
  And I kind of neglected some of that stuff at the cost of being so involved with the church and trying to fix myself that I neglected the basics of keeping up with who I am.
• 29:12
  And so actually, I think that made a tremendous difference.
• 29:16
  My relationship with my daughter has gotten so much better.
• 29:20
  We're actually going on our first family vacation together.
• 29:22
  that we've gone on in years.
• 29:25
  This weekend, as a matter of fact, we're going to hike Mount Mansfield up in Vermont.
• 29:28
  We just hiked Mount Manadnock in New Hampshire a few weeks ago together.
• 29:33
  And our relationship has gotten so much closer.
• 29:36
  And because of these things, I've noticed a big increase in my relationship with my daughter and my other daughter.
• 29:51
  I could go off here about the different changes, but I don't know if you want me to spend that kind of time.
• 29:55
  Yeah, no, no.
• 29:56
  Let's share some more of them because, David, here's what I think is important.
• 30:00
  And I really wanted you to share this because I watched the development of this in the calls that we had together when you were in the container.
• 30:08
  I always share with men, if you focus on masculine containment, if you understand this discipline, it will improve your relationship.
• 30:16
  But it'll also improve your relationship with yourself and your understanding of yourself.
• 30:21
  And that will change everything around you.
• 30:23
  And I'd love for you to share, like, what are the other things that you've seen change and you've seen shift and you've seen move in a better direction?
• 30:30
  Well, when I started the container, I was doing some fitness stuff, but I was kind of very casual.
• 30:37
  And then when we had those goals, I know my daughter had asked me to climb Mount Washington with her in July.
• 30:42
  And this was back in maybe four or five months ago.
• 30:46
  She's like, Dad, I want to do some hiking with you.
• 30:49
  And I've been making excuses like, well, I serve a church and, you know, I don't know if I'm in shape for that.
• 30:54
  And I don't have time, you know, I got to be at the business.
• 30:57
  But when we were in the container, we had to set these goals for fitness.
• 31:01
  And I had set some pretty lofty goals for fitness because I know my daughter has been asking me about this.
• 31:07
  And I wanted to take it seriously.
• 31:09
  So I worked really hard and I...
• 31:13
  Probably doubled, I think, the point of where I was at when I first started the container with my results.
• 31:20
  I mean, I definitely – I could have a lot more to work on fitness-wide, but I've made a lot of progress from where I was.
• 31:27
  And I noticed that when we just hiked Mount Monadnock a few weeks ago.
• 31:32
  I was like, oh, wow.
• 31:33
  I haven't had this kind of like –
• 31:35
  vitality in a while.
• 31:37
  And it was really nice to spend that with my daughter and, and her boyfriend came with us too.
• 31:40
  So that was a great spiritual experience too, for me to just be out there in nature with them and share that time.
• 31:50
  So then it's like one thing leads to another.
• 31:52
  I think the fitness gave me the energy.
• 31:53
  So it made me a better provider for my wife because I could be more supportive.
• 31:57
  I was getting tired, like taking care of the house, taking care of the dog and all that stuff.
• 32:01
  Yeah.
• 32:02
  It was kind of a lot.
• 32:03
  And my wife is going through a lot too.
• 32:05
  So I was trying to like put pressure on her.
• 32:06
  But because I'm more fit, I can handle a little bit more and be kind of a little bit more of a rock.
• 32:13
  And then also still be awake and have the space to be there emotionally present too for her.
• 32:19
  So I think that really helped.
• 32:21
  As far as just like being contained though, I think overall humility has helped like been a lot better.
• 32:27
  Which is like...
• 32:29
  helped increase like business wise.
• 32:31
  Like I actually just started social media accounts from my pawn shop where before I was kind of like terrified to go back on social media because I was scared just to say the wrong thing and stuff.
• 32:40
  But all these little steps have been happening ever since I've started learning the containment.
• 32:45
  And it's not like I'm trying, it's just like being contained.
• 32:49
  It's like kind of flowing out of that, I guess.
• 32:52
  It's not like I'm actually trying to do these things.
• 32:55
  They're just kind of happening because I've been contained
• 32:59
  I don't know if that makes any sense.
• 33:01
  Oh, it makes all the sense in the world, David.
• 33:03
  When I started teaching this, I'm like getting really excited to hear all this.
• 33:09
  It's just so, so validating because when I started teaching this, I told the men in the early containers that my experience was the more contained I was, the more capacity I had.
• 33:22
  And, you know, it feels like you're doing a lot of work.
• 33:24
  But I told him, like, I did a lot of work.
• 33:26
  And somehow I ended up with more energy, more time, more getting done, more, more accomplishments.
• 33:31
  And I hear that's kind of the same thing that's happening for you.
• 33:34
  It's like, you were busy before and tired before, but now you're getting way more done.
• 33:39
  And there's more time in the day is what it sounds like.
• 33:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:45
  And you know, one of the things coming to mind now, because you mentioned about forgiveness, and I was just talking about social media.
• 33:52
  I made a lot of mistakes, not just in my relationship, but in business too.
• 33:57
  And I feel like I did, like before I was saved, I did things the way that I'm not proud of myself.
• 34:02
  You know, I wasn't always happy looking in the mirror the way I went about my life.
• 34:07
  And I guess there was some fear
• 34:10
  And shame in me because I didn't want to move forward.
• 34:13
  I was too afraid to, like, try to, like, increase my business or work in my relationship because maybe I didn't deserve it.
• 34:19
  I'm a bad person, which I –
• 34:22
  could have been a better person.
• 34:23
  And I did make some mistakes, but I think forgiving myself, I'm like, okay, well, the past is the past, but I've got a family to provide for and I have to move on.
• 34:35
  Being contained and having compassion, I think, let me grow in the way the person I want to be
• 34:42
  And do things in a way like you were with integrity and with the heart of service and with love for others rather than from my own selfish desires, but with a heart to serve.
• 34:52
  I think being contained is helping me flourish in those areas more.
• 34:58
  It's so beautiful, David.
• 34:59
  Congratulations, man.
• 35:01
  I've just got a couple more questions.
• 35:02
  This has been extraordinary.
• 35:04
  I just want you to know that this has been absolutely amazing.
• 35:09
  I just want to ask a couple more questions.
• 35:11
  One that I really want to hear your answer to.
• 35:13
  What would your wife say is different about you now?
• 35:18
  If you had to look at it from her perspective.
• 35:24
  There's a couple of things she has said to me.
• 35:26
  I think one, like,
• 35:30
  she feels definitely more safer around me.
• 35:33
  Like she, she says that I'm like her safe place.
• 35:40
  She says that I don't leave.
• 35:44
  I'm more committed, I guess, like willing to work through an argument and like a way that's not, that doesn't make her feel bad, I guess.
• 35:53
  Um, like I'm more willing to stay and work it out.
• 35:59
  Um,
• 36:15
  I think just overall, just caring, more supportive, more there for her.
• 36:32
  And I don't really know the right word for that other than just like providing that safe space, being there.
• 36:37
  Oh, that's enough.
• 36:40
  Yeah, doesn't it?
• 36:42
  I mean, you already said it earlier.
• 36:43
  When you hear stuff like that, it makes you feel like you can do anything.
• 36:46
  Hmm.
• 36:49
  And I want to do it more, and I still have work to do on it.
• 36:52
  You know, I haven't got it all figured out.
• 36:54
  I really try every day to do that better.
• 36:57
  And some days are harder than others.
• 36:59
  Some days it's like, man, oh, things are so good, good.
• 37:01
  But this is testing right now.
• 37:04
  Yeah.
• 37:06
  I think that's really where the containment training that we've done really helps because if I didn't have that, I know I would go a different direction with that.
• 37:12
  Some days I am tested and I, I, I, one of the best things that I've, I've learned from you too, is to just be okay with myself.
• 37:22
  Like what is Dave want?
• 37:23
  Where am I going in life?
• 37:24
  That's it.
• 37:25
  And, um, you know.
• 37:28
  I want my wife to come along on the ride with me, but not demand it or make my life so that she can, but be the best version of myself.
• 37:38
  So she just wants to come along kind of.
• 37:40
  And that's something that I remember in those hard times.
• 37:43
  It's like, OK, you know what?
• 37:44
  This is even if my wife isn't reacting to me the best right now, maybe she's having a hard day, but I still know who I am.
• 37:50
  And I know I'm still loved and I'm going to go play some music right now or I'm going to go work on my business and I'm going to find some fun.
• 37:58
  And that's that really helps my mental state to having those other things to do in purpose other than trying to fix my marriage.
• 38:05
  That that was my purpose.
• 38:06
  And that I think was a very lonely place.
• 38:14
  Oh, brother, I feel like so many men are going to relate so deeply to this.
• 38:18
  Last question.
• 38:21
  If there's a guy out there who's considering joining the Brotherhood and thinking about it, what would you have to say to him?
• 38:31
  I think everybody has to make a choice on where they want to be and what they want to do.
• 38:37
  Um, so I, I don't like to tell anybody to go do something because only they know the answers for that and what they want.
• 38:46
  But I know if you're like me and you are seeking and you're sharing those same struggles and there's things with your wife or others that you just don't understand.
• 38:55
  And sometimes things are just weird or awkward.
• 38:58
  There is a reason for that.
• 39:00
  And Alex showed me things to help where it's like it feels natural and it doesn't feel like I'm walking through tar in my life every day.
• 39:11
  It feels lighter.
• 39:15
  It feels warmer.
• 39:16
  And the reaction from people are better.
• 39:21
  So if you feel those ways, if you feel alone sometimes or if you're feeling like things just get awkward sometimes and you don't understand why and there's friction that you don't like, then this probably –
• 39:35
  I think would be helpful for you in that circumstance because I know that's exactly how I feel.
• 39:41
  And I would join on a heartbeat knowing what I know now.
• 39:46
  I wish I had done this 10 years ago, 20 years ago, my life would have been better.
• 39:51
  But then again, I don't know if I've gone through enough pain to even receive that.
• 39:55
  So that's why I say you have to decide for yourself.
• 39:57
  But if you've gone through enough pain and punishment, like I did up to the point and you want, uh,
• 40:03
  a solution to that.
• 40:04
  I know Alex helped me a lot with the information and the, and the coaching and the care.
• 40:10
  I mean, I just feel, I could feel the love Alex, just being here with you.
• 40:14
  And I appreciate it.
• 40:16
  And I'm also just really, I'm actually just astonished that you recognize me in the group.
• 40:22
  I sometimes wondered if you knew I was there, but the things that you said, I, it made me really feel good.
• 40:28
  And I appreciate you saying that stuff.
• 40:30
  Um,
• 40:32
  So I guess that's all I would have to say is if you feel that pain and you're looking for a solution, I know Alex has some pretty good solutions to those problems and pains and it's been helpful for me.
• 40:44
  Yeah, David, thank you for sharing that.
• 40:48
  And thank you for sharing it from such a real, grounded, like truthful perspective.
• 40:56
  Brother, I don't know how you wouldn't think I knew you were in the group.
• 41:00
  Like your participation, your questions, your inquiry, your desire to do better and to really understand what we were sharing and what we were discussing came through so loud and clear.
• 41:12
  And I think anyone who listens to this podcast is not just going to hear a story of transformation and not just going to hear a story of –
• 41:22
  like a lot of work being done.
• 41:23
  And, but I think what they're going to hear is a story of commitment to yourself and a story of commitment to your marriage and to the people around you and to the, to your kids and to your community.
• 41:36
  And it comes through so loud and clear, dude, if anything, you are not forgettable.
• 41:42
  You are one of the most memorable guys we had in that container and the way that you showed up and the way you applied and the way you shared.
• 41:49
  And it has been an absolute honor to spend this time with you, David.
• 41:56
  Oh, thanks, Alex.
• 42:01
  I appreciate that.
• 42:04
  Yeah, it's my pleasure, man.
• 42:05
  It's my pleasure.
• 42:06
  Thank you for taking the time to help other men who may be struggling like you were struggling and to help them understand this concept of masculine containment and how much it really can change not just your relationship, but your relationship with yourself, your life, your perspective of the world around you and how the world sees you.
• 42:26
  I think you're an extraordinary example of that, brother.
• 42:31
  Well, I am really grateful for what you've taught me.
• 42:34
  And obviously you can just from stuff I'm sure that I shared.
• 42:39
  I mean, it's stuff I think I'm going to remember the rest of my life now.
• 42:44
  And it has equipped me to...
• 42:47
  to grow in and and i think it's gonna take a little while to actually catch up i mean there's situations now months later that i'm like oh wow i remember alex talking about it but it wasn't like the level of awareness to really apply it well in that moment but i'm starting to get there i'm thinking sometimes like oh how would alex handle this and and i'm trying to like i see the light at the end of the tunnel and just trying to get closer to it i guess
• 43:14
  Well, that's – it's – I think the understanding of masculine containment and learning this discipline, learning this martial art, it's a lifelong journey.
• 43:22
  And I'm so thrilled that you're on it, David.
• 43:25
  And I want to say to anybody listening, if you're a guy who relates like I did to so much of what David shared –
• 43:35
  And you're in that place where things might feel weird or they feel awkward or they feel distant.
• 43:40
  There is definitely a way for you to change your perspective around it, change your behaviors around it, and understand that through training and training and discipline and really understanding this martial art-like thing.
• 43:52
  Um, discipline of masculine containment can change everything.
• 43:54
  David's an example.
• 43:56
  I know it's absolutely changed and radically shifted my entire life.
• 44:00
  And, you know, the two of us were in a group with over a hundred men where we saw men doing the same, same type of transformation, same type of transition, same type of learning.
• 44:09
  So if you're interested, you can go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com and sign up for our wait list or sign up for an interview if they're available.
• 44:17
  And we would love to see you in the Brotherhood Society soon.
• 44:20
  David, is there anything else you'd like to share?
• 44:25
  I think just one thing that I was thinking about as you were wrapping up, I just want to say one thing that I really appreciate is that, you know, I don't know if you're like a Christian.
• 44:34
  I know you've mentioned it when we talked about that stuff.
• 44:36
  And I know I, like I said, I'm a pretty devout Christian, but I think it's really great to see someone putting the principles in action without using scripture to, I guess,
• 44:52
  force and outcome, but more lead by example.
• 44:56
  I think that itself is like a container, seeing that and being, be the model that, you know, I've learned about and read about, but seeing it in action is helpful.
• 45:07
  Watching you interact with the men, showing the love, showing you giving space, that in itself, I think was a lot of value to me because I'm like, ah, I got, I, that's what I want to be like is, is like that.
• 45:19
  So thank you for that too.
• 45:20
  I appreciate it.
• 45:21
  And I guess that's all I have left to say on that.
• 45:24
  God, what a beautiful compliment, David.
• 45:28
  I'm actually a little taken aback by that, but thank you.
• 45:31
  I think I look to scripture for inspiration, not enforcement.
• 45:38
  And I think there's extraordinary inspiration, but when we try and force it on people, it can backfire completely.
• 45:44
  And when you use it for inspiration, you get the results that you did.
• 45:50
  So thank you, brother.
• 45:53
  Thank you for this time together.
• 45:54
  And thank you for that final thought.
• 45:56
  And again, anybody who's listening, who'd like to join us, thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
• 46:01
  We look forward to seeing you soon.