Latest / LifeAudio / Christian Parent, Crazy World - Wrestling with What God Allows—Is It OK to Question Him? (w/ Dr. Erin Barry & Susan Frost) - Ep. 196

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Christian Parent, Crazy World - Wrestling with What God Allows—Is It OK to Question Him? (w/ Dr. Erin Barry & Susan Frost) - Ep. 196 · LifeAudio

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome, everybody, to Christian Parent, Crazy World. This is a
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: podcast that tackles tough topics to help you be a
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: godly parent in an ungodly world. I am your host,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Katherine Seegers, and in today's episode, we are going to
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: wrestle with a provocative question that actually has to do
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: with wrestling. That is, are we supposed to wrestle with.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: God in this life? Is it okay to be confused, hurt,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: even angry over what He.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Allows us to do? Now, some would say no, but.
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  Speaker 2: I believe scripture gives us a powerful precedent.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: For wrestling with God. And today, I've invited the women
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: who have stood by me through some of my hardest seasons.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: They know me deeply, and together we've wrestled through tough theological, cultural,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: and relational issues. But most of all, we've wrestled with
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: the suffering that God has allowed in our lives. So today,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: we are going to explore the biblical precedent for wrestling
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: with God, and then we're going to show you what
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: that wrestling looks like in real life.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: Together.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: That's the plan for this episode of Christian Parent Crazy World.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: So a few weeks ago, I.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Was sitting with my husband, Brian, in our new home
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: here in the Nashville area, and I was working on
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: an outline for this episode that I was going to
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: have with my two closest friends, Dr. Erin Berry and
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Susan Frost. And Brian asked what we were going to
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: be talking about, and I said, wrestling. And he said, like, WWF?
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: And I said, pretty much, only with God. And here's
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: the thing.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: A lot of.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Believers would say, you shouldn't wrestle with God. He's God,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and you're not. His ways are higher than your ways,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: and his thoughts are higher than your thoughts.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: And you may not.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Understand why he allows certain things, but you need to
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: trust God. his sovereignty and submit to his will and
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: believe that he's working all things together for good. And
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: wrestling with him is only going to get in the
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: way of that trust. And let me just say, I
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: agree with all of that. But the last part, the
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: part about wrestling, I agree with everything else. But others
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: would say, okay, now wait a minute. Look at the Psalms.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Look at Job.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Look at Jacob wrestling with God through the night.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Scripture is awesome.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Full of people who brought their anguish and their questions
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: and even their complaints directly to God. Faith doesn't mean
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: pretending you're okay when you're not. Sometimes trusting God means
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: being honest with them about how much you're hurting.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: So which is it?
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  Speaker 1: Because when it comes to suffering, we have to reckon
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: with three truths that seem difficult to reconcile.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Number one, God is all-powerful. Number two, God is all good.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: And number three, evil and suffering are present reality in
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: our world and in our lives. So how do we
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: square that theological triangle? Yeah, that is a tough question.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: In fact, I recently re-aired.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: An episode with Dr.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Douglas Groteis. It was called, How Could a Good God
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Allow Evil and Suffering?
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: And Dr.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Groteis in that episode with me explored that question from
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: a theological perspective. So if you haven't heard that conversation,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I encourage you to go back and check it out.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: But today, we are going to approach suffering from a
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: different angle. We're going to ask, how do we actually
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: wrestle through suffering in this life as believers? And my
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: guests today are the women I wrestle through all the
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: tough stuff with.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Erin Berry is a licensed Christian counselor who has an
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: incredible ministry walking alongside people in their hardest hours. And
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Susan Frost is a certified trauma coach who also does
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: a great deal.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Of in-home ministry. But more than that, these are my
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: closest friends. You could say... You could say that they
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: are my WWF partners when it comes to wrestling through
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: the tough stuff. And over the next two episodes, the
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: three of us are going.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: To explore this together. First, we are going to establish
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: the biblical precedent for wrestling with God. Because like I said,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: some believers have been taught that questioning what God allows
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: is somehow a failure of our faith. So we're going
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: to look at what scripture actually shows us. But we're
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: not going to stop at just the theology. We're also
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: going to model how to wrestle with God when suffering
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: hits close to home. We're going to talk honestly about
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the questions, about the disappointment and the confusion. And we're
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: going to explore four things we can lean into during
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: seasons of suffering. And I want you to know something
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: about this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: I did not want it to feel like three women
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  Speaker 2: trying to teach a lesson about suffering.
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  Speaker 4: No.
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  Speaker 1: I wanted it to feel like you have pulled up
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  Speaker 1: a chair and are listening in on the kinds of
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: deep conversations that the three of us have had together
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: for many years. Because when you're wrestling through something, you
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: don't always have tidy questions or tidy answers and you
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: don't need a sermon.
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  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you're just confused and you're disappointed and
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: you're angry and you wonder where God is and why
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: he hasn't shown up the way that you hoped and
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: prayed that he would. And I don't think that makes
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: you a bad believer. I think that makes you an
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: honest believer.
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  Speaker 3: And we want to.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Be honest about all that you go through when you're
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: suffering while remembering.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: That the goal isn't to wrestle away from God. It's
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: to wrestle our way toward him. And I truly believe
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: that when you do that, when you wrestle through the
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: tough stuff with God, you're going to walk away with
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: a stronger faith and a deeper relationship with your Heavenly Father.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: So with that said, I will take you to my
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: conversation with Susan Frost and Dr.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Erin Berry. Susan and Erin, welcome to Christian Parent Crazy World.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: I am so honored and excited to have you both
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: here today.
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  Speaker 3: It's always an honor to be here, Katherine. Thank you
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: so much for inviting us.
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Erin and Catherine, for including me in
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: this conversation.
• 6:35
  Speaker 6: It's going to be so good. Well, you are always
• 6:37
  Speaker 6: in all of our conversations. So Erin's been on the
• 6:40
  Speaker 6: show a couple of times. Erin was my very first
• 6:42
  Speaker 6: guest on Christian Parent Crazy World. I had you on
• 6:45
  Speaker 6: the show, first and foremost, because you are eminently qualified
• 6:49
  Speaker 6: to be. And the conversations that we've had, those first
• 6:53
  Speaker 6: conversations we did on sexuality, and then we have done
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: some really incredible conversations since then. But I wanted a
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: soft place to land unless I screwed the whole thing up.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: And then, so Susan, actually Susan introduced us years and
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: years ago, and the three of us are on text
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: chains all the time, just talking about life, wrestling through
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: all sorts of things, theological issues, cultural issues, everything. family issues,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: and a lot of the time it's usually me like,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going through this, help me. The two of you
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: are my inner circle of people that I wrestle through
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: things with, and I think vice versa. We all go
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: through a lot of things together. And so I couldn't
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: think of a better combo to have here today to
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: talk about what, when we're wrestling through the things that
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: God allows in this life. I wanted to add to that, though. So, Erin,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: you were my very first guest, period. And we did
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: a Zoom call. Susan, you are now my very first
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: in-studio guest. kind of creating a studio now that we've
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: moved to the Nashville area. And so this is the
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: first time we've done one in person. We had some
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: technical hoops we had to jump through this morning, but
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I can't think of a better first in-studio guest to
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: have than my other bestie here. So I'm so glad
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: to have you here. It's a little sparse. Don't have
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: the paint up or any pictures yet, but it's going
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: to get the job done. So welcome, to the studio
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: or studio. Hopefully it'll look a little more like one eventually,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: but I'm so honored to have you both here. Like
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I said, you're the ones that I come to to
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: wrestle through all sorts of things. And I can almost
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: see perhaps in the future. This becoming a thing, like
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the three of us, because we talk about all the
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: theological stuff. Oh, did you see this interview? You know,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: even if it is like hours long and we both,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: we all listen to it and then we get back
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: together and chat about, you know, that theological issue or
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: a cultural issue. But I would say where we spend
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of real estate, if not most of the
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: real estate, and this is probably due to me, is
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: the stuff that we're wrestling through in terms of sufferings.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: And the evil that's in this world and the things
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: that we're going through and we need our inner circle
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: to talk to about that. So I love doing that
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: with you guys. Why don't you introduce yourselves to the audience?
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Just very quickly tell us who you are, what you do,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: a little bit about your family and ministry. Go ahead, Erin.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm Dr. Erin Berry. I am a clinical
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: Christian counselor. So I spend a lot of time just
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: obviously seeing clients. My husband and I have been in
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: ministry our whole life, and he's a worship pastor, and
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: we've done lots of concert ministry and family ministry and
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: marriage ministry, worship ministry together. We have three grown children
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: and two little granddaughters.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, down here near us, where you need to be.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: We are willing and praying for you to get back
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: down to the Nashville area with Susan and me. Okay, Susan,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: I am Susan Frost. I'm a certified trauma-informed life coach
• 10:18
  Speaker 5: through Freedom Organization with Carrie Garcia. I'm married to Brian
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: and we have one son, Drew, who's married to Faith
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: and they are lovely. Brian and I do a lot
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: of just in-home ministries, counseling. We do a lot of mentoring,
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: married couples, a lot of young adults, people who are in, um,
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: places where they're just trying to figure out life. Yes.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: We, we just kind of do it. We, we love that. We're,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you know, the only real credential we have is the
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: certification and the life coach, but it's, uh, it's been
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: pretty fun. Uh, yes. You're, definitely one of my great
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: soft and wise places to land. I'll reverse that. You're
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: very wise and a soft place to land. Erin has
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: gifted me so much free counseling over the years and
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: you as well, Susan. I am in a Bible study
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: with Susan right now. This is so cool. We met
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: each other in a Bible study. How many years ago
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: was that?
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: It's been a long time. Our kids were very young.
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Still homeschooling. Yes, we were. So it's been definitely what
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Over 15 years ago, at least. So we met in
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: a community Bible study, and now we are doing community
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Bible study again, studying the book of Acts. And so
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be a part of that. And
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Aaron and I have been in a prayer group for, goodness,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: four or five years now, where we meet once a
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: month and get together for prayer needs.
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: And so.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I'm just so excited to have this conversation with the
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: two of you today because actually recently I re-aired a
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: pretty important interview I had early on in the show
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: where I was talking to Dr. Douglas Groteis.
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: Dr.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Groteis wrote my Christian Apologetics textbook. I was like beyond
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: thrilled to get an interview with him. This book is
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: over 800 pages long where he really makes a comprehensive
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: case for biblical faith. And I had... any number of
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: topics I could have asked him about because he's eminently
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: qualified to talk about anything in the field of Christian
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: apologetics or philosophy or theology. But the topic I landed
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: on was one that was the biggest barrier to Gen
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Z coming to the faith.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: And that was.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: How could a good God allow so much evil and
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: suffering in the world? And So we processed that together.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: He gave us a really great theological case for that because,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: by the way, every worldview has to deal with this
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: in terms, you know, no matter what the religious view
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: is or the worldview is, even if you're atheist, you
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: have a really hard time understanding or making a case
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: for why evil exists if you're just a materialist and
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: all you believe is that there's the natural world. So
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: we wrestled through all of that, and he also shared
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: a very poignant story of his own suffering. His wife, Rebecca,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: contracted dementia at a very young age. I think she
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: was still in her 50s, maybe early 60s, but it
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: was definitely a lot younger than one would expect. And
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: while I say all of these brilliant things about Dr. Grothuis,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: because he is brilliant, his wife edited all of his books.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: And she was a MNSA member, which is the International
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: High IQ Society. And he joked about the fact that
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: they asked her to be a part of it, not him.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: And he still had her Mensa card. She tragically did pass.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: It was a very difficult journey for him to watch
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: her mind deteriorate like that. So we had a really
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: powerful and poignant conversation about that. But I wanted to
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: invite you guys back on. Well, you, Erin, and you, Susan,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: for the first time. Because I wanted to show our
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: audience kind of how we wrestle through this together. The
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: things that God allows in life. Because... we have deep
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: and abiding faith in God. And one of the things Dr.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Grotai said that really touched me in that interview, he
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: was like, I knew too much to go anywhere else.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: I'd studied all of the other religions. I considered them all.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: I understood what they all taught. I certainly understood the
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: claims of agnosticism and atheism and naturalism, materialism. He's like,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I knew that the words of life are contained in
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: our holy book. So I have to wrestle through this
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: as a Christian because it's true. And that's what we
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: do together. The three of us do that together. And
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: so I kind of wanted to give the audience a
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: taste of that. So recently I did an episode. It
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: was episode 191. It was kind of the flip side
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of this. And that's why I wanted to come back
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: to this part of the conversation. It was when a
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: giant is standing between you and God's promise. And I
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: kind of walked through what had happened in the last
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: year of my life, which you guys were front row
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: seat for. And just the struggles, the heartaches, the difficulties.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: But then all of a sudden it was like, hold
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: your horses, whiplash. God starts moving and threading needles that
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: were so tiny that I could barely even see them.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And you're like, clearly God, when he chooses to, when
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: it's his will, he moves heaven and earth to do things.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And we've all seen it. We've all can look back
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: over the course of our lives and we can see
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: these miracles and that God has sovereignly ordained, and yet
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: on the other side, you're like, I'm praying for this thing.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: It seems so simple. Sometimes it may seem so small,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: or maybe it's big, and it feels like, God, where
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: are you? You're silent. You didn't show up. I rolled
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: out red carpet for you to be here. I'm just
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: speaking personally of some of the things I've gone through recently.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: On the other side of this, I'm like, it's so
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: hard to make sense of how God can, on the
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: one hand... just show up big and strong and it
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: feels like firework shows are going off because he is
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: so big and so evident in this one area of
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: my life in particular moving to Nashville the things he
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: did was just like I just my head was spinning
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: everybody's head our realtors were like I've never seen this
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: before this is crazy that this happened the way you
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: ended up here and then on the other side I'm
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: like I'm praying for this seemingly simple silly thing That
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: would have meant the world to my daughter and one
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: of her friends. I'll get to this later. I rolled
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: out red carpet and I'm like, it ended in tragedy
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: and heartache. And so that's why we're here today. And
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the concept of wrestling with God.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: There's this really incredible passage of scripture where Jacob wrestles
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: with God. There's this story where Jacob is wrestling. It's
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: a mysterious man. He shows up. This is in Genesis
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: chapter 32. And he wrestles with this man through the night.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: And as daybreak approaches, the man, this mysterious man, touches
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Jacob's hip and he dislocates it. But Jacob still, he
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: refuses to let go. And I think that's how we
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: feel sometimes in these seasons. Like, I'm in pain. I'm hurting,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: but I've got nowhere else to go. God, you're true.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I know you're true. Your word is truth. I know
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: you're real. I know that I have to, like Dr.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Grotai said, wrestle through this as a Christian, as a believer.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: And so he does, he insists, he says, I will
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: not let you go until you bless me. And that's
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: when God, you know, of course, this mysterious man is God.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: changes his name to Israel. And I love the meaning
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: of that name because he tells them what it means.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: It means one who wrestles with God and man and overcomes.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: And so I want to talk about how we do
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: that together. Thoughts that you might have on everything I've
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: said up to this point, Erin, and the story of
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Jacob in Scripture. Why don't you enlighten us with your
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: brilliant thoughts on that?
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Well, I think... The first thing I think about is
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: that he's, so he wrestles, he won't let go, but
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: then he's marked, right? So he, the angel of the
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Lord touches his hip and he's never the same. And
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: the way that he walks is not the same. And
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: that's in my, like the physical manifestation is that way
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: that he walks, but it makes me think symbolically that,
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: When we wrestle with God, and I think you pointed
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: that out, that we wrestle because things don't look like
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: we expected them to look. So in a way, we're
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: walking one way. Then we encounter this difficulty. We wrestle
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: with the Lord. Once we pass through it, our walk
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: looks different. And when I think about it... I love that.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: I think, too, that he... Everybody else noticed too. And
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: in a way, it's a vulnerability and a humility, right?
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: That walk would look like it's a vulnerability and a humility,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: but a strength. I think that it's sort of an awe.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: And the reason I say that, I remember there was
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: a time that we saw some men from China, and
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: they had been in the Chinese church and they came.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: And when you saw them physically, this is a little different,
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: but their bodies reflected prison, beating. Like physically, they looked weakened.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: But when they got up to speak, there was a
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: power and an authority in their words. It was just...
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: it blew you away. So that's what I kind of
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: think of when I look at that passage. I think
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: the wrestling is real and hard and long and feels empty.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: But like you said, where else do we go? What
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: do we do? But once you're through it, there's a
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: power and authority that comes on the person.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Beautiful. I love that imagery of the Chinese man. I've,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: been able to hear Dr. Yoon, uh, brother Yoon, brother
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Yoon speak, who wrote the heavenly man a couple of
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: times and his suffering in China was immense. Uh, and
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: just how did you even survive that and things we
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: don't fully understand in the West here. Uh, but wow,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: that's incredible. Susan, what are your thoughts on that wrestling
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: of Jacob with God and anything else?
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: So when I think about this story, I often go
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: back to a Bible study that I did years ago,
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: probably in the 90s, somewhere in there, where we were
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: studying Genesis and obviously the story of Jacob came up.
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: And one of the questions in our study was, do
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: you think that Jacob would have gotten the blessing of
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: God had he not wrestled all night? And the leader
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: of the group, I think she was well-meaning, but she said, okay,
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: we'll just all answer this one together.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And everybody said yes.
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: And I was like, and then she said, well, just
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: on the off chance that somebody has a different opinion.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Which, you know, this is always me. This is why
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I gravitated towards you so many years ago. Because in
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: that class, when we met, there were always two. It
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: was the two of us. And we're like, there was
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: a kindred spirit here. Yeah, we're going to be friends.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Good ones.
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: Good. I just told them, I was like, no, I
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: don't think that we just have this automatic path. That
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: God just has this big plan and he's going to
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: do whatever he wants, no matter what.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: No matter what we think.
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: I think that, you know, I, I was like, sometimes
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: I think God wants to invite us into something and
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: work it out with him in us and with.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Him to accomplish his plan. Of course, it's always that way.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: But also I think sometimes we just have to ask ourselves,
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: how bad do we want something? How, what are we
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: willing to do to get to the, from point A
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: to point B, you know, with the, with the Lord
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: and with ourselves and how do we navigate that pathway?
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: And sometimes I think that the reason that people say
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: yes to that question is because, well, that's pretty and
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: that's easy and that's, you know, theologically simple.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to question your.
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: Beliefs or you don't have to question your thoughts or
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: your actions or even question somebody else's Where they might be.
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: But when you answer that question as a no, it
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: brings about this whole idea of like suddenly it feels messy.
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: It feels like, well, are they really a Christian? Like,
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: you know, the eyebrows go up.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: The whole thing. But life sometimes is messy.
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: And I think that we have to have the permission
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: to wrestle. And I think that's where a lot of
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: people fail. You know, just because... they don't want to
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: make a mistake or they don't want to be off
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: in some form or fashion. And so it's just easier
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: to say the broad sweep of, well, of course God
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: would do that. God's sovereign and he does what he wants. And,
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: and while that is true, I do think that there
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: is an invitation for us to come into that. I
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: do think that God is wanting to partner with us
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: and he's wanting us to, like Aaron said, allow him
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: to mark us, allow him to, put this seal on
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: us or this stamp on us that says, I've wrestled
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: with God and my life is forever changed.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Wrestled with God and man and overcome.
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: Go ahead, Erin.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: I like what she said, too, because I also think
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: that is so pervasive in our society. We don't want
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: anyone to suffer. So much so that our children, we're
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: seeing some real weakness of character.
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: Because we think that Pain and suffering is what we
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: want to avoid. But the reality is mistakes, pain and suffering,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: that's actually how you get to what really matters and
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: how you become who you're intended to be. But if
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: you don't suffer, then the little things of life take
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: you out. And like Susan is saying, it's messy.
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: Yes, it can be very messy. And sometimes I think,
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: you know, if we don't allow ourselves to wrestle, then
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: we're not going to let our friends wrestle.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: We're not going to let our kids wrestle.
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: We're not going to let, you know, it just, it
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: just snowballs to where we just want everything to be
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: easy and perfect.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: And that's, that's not real life. I mean, scripture says.
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart.
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: I've overcome this world and he is going to, we're
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: going to overcome because he's overcome and, But it can
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: and it often is messy.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Yes. There's this really crazy verse in Hebrews chapter 5, 8,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: where it says that Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered. So, yeah,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: we are going to have suffering. The key is like,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: and like you said, it gets messy and people don't
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: want to walk with you through that. That's why you guys,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: you have gone so many rounds with me through the
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: things that I've suffered and, and, You have to have
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: a circle of people that are willing and able to
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: not call you a heretic, to not say you're walking
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: in sin or disobedience because you're really having a hard time.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: with this this season of suffering that you may be
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: in and you guys are those people for me which
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: is exactly why I invited you on the show so
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: what I want to talk about and this is this
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: is probably going to be a two-parter at least because
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I am there's so much richness and what both of
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: you said and I love that you really highlighted Susan
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: how hard it is to walk through these seasons sometimes
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: in the body of Christ because everybody wants to get
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: it all fixed and And that's what your whole job is.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Aaron, you sit around all day and have
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: to listen to people who are coming in. And I'm
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: sure a large part of it is their circles aren't
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: supporting them. They aren't allowing them to walk through the
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: grief and the suffering that is legitimate and real. And
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: that's one of the things I've always so appreciated about
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: both of you. You validate the suffering. You don't minimize
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: the suffering. And you allow me the the space to
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: really work it out. I'm going to get there. Yeah.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I know you guys are going to get there. We're
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: going to get there. Like Peter did. That was a
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: verse that Dr. Groteis brought up. And when he was
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: talking about the suffering of his wife was this John 6,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: 68 and 69. It's this really fascinating passage where Jesus
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: is just like dropped a bomb on all of his followers, right?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: He's like, unless you, eat my body and drink my blood.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: You can have no part of me. And they're all like, wait, what, what,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: what did.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: He just say?
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: What did we sign up for? Is this some cannibalistic
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: cult that we're in? They didn't understand. Of course he
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: was speaking spiritually and somewhat metaphorically, but a lot of
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: his followers deserted him at this point. And he turns
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to Peter who doesn't understand it either. But what does
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Peter say?
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Lord, Where else are we going to go?
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: To whom shall we go? You have the words of life.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: We believe and know that you are the Holy one
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: of God. And that is the place where I believe
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: suffering hopefully gets us to this place where we're like,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I don't understand what you just said or what you
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: just allowed. I don't understand what you're asking of me.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know why this didn't get answered the way
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: that I hoped and prayed that it would. But where
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: else am I going to go? Because I know that
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: the word is true and nothing else out there makes sense.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And the one thing I know I've got going for
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: me here is that, you know, the suffering exists, but
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: you are going to make something good come out of it.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: That good will come out of it if I'm submitted
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: to your process and I let you mark me and
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I'm going to walk with a limp, but I'm going
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: to have a testimony of your faithfulness in the middle
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: of it. of this difficult season. So I want to
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: talk about four things that we can lean into in
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: our suffering. The first thing we're doing right now, we
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: lean in to God's family. And we'll probably get to
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: the first two in this episode and the second two
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: in the next one. We lean into God's family. And
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: as Susan so astutely pointed out, it doesn't mean the
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: whole family. There may be some family members out there
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: that can't handle it.
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: It.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: And I have experienced that a lot, which is why
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: sometimes when you're going through a really difficult season, I
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: know when we first started going through the prodigal season
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: of my daughter, I say the prodigal season. She was
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: prodigal in her belief. She wasn't out there wild and crazy.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: But I realized very quickly on, as I shared with
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: some people, maybe some family members or some close friends, that, okay,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I've got to draw this circle pretty tight. And it
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: consisted of Brian and the two of you at some points.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: We have the group that Aaron and I have been
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: meeting with for a number of years. It was a really,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: really tight group where I shared everything with and really
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: wept with and prayed with. So let's talk about leaning
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: into God's family. Why don't you start, Erin? Give us
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: some cautions and some advice on that. Because like I said,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: you can lean the wrong direction, even in God's family,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: and find yourself with some other wounds that you need
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: to find your counselor. I came to you with so
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: many of those wounds, like licking those wounds.
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And you helped me so much, Erin. Thank you. But
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: give us some advice when we're going through a season
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: of suffering, leaning into God's family. How do we do that?
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: And I like how you said we choose, in a way,
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: the safe people, I would say, and those that don't
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: try to fix.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: You need people that will sit with you. And I
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: think we talked about on a different podcast, I love
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: that part in Job. Where at the beginning, the friends
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: are good. They sit in silence for a week. They
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: don't say anything. And I think when somebody's suffering, number one,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: you want to find people that will do exactly what
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: you said. Give them space. Give you space to be
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: and to pour out your heart without judgment and honestly
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: without input. I mean, on occasion might be one, but
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: that will listen and will just let you get it
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: out because you have to. And I think also it's,
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: like you said, a very small group because otherwise you're
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: going to get all kinds of input. And that's what
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: I even tell my clients. Like I had a client
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: once and she was seeing another counselor. And I actually
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: told her, I said, let's just pick one or the other.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: I said, because you need to have some people that
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: are close that you trust and listen to. Um, but
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: too many voices. I mean, the Bible does say in
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: a multitude of counselors, right? But in this case, you
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: actually need a smaller circle so that it's not too confusing.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: And then people, you just, and different people are helpful
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: for different, different sufferings.
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: Right. Right.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Um, if it's a health thing, maybe they've gone through
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: that before. If it's a loss of a, somebody they've
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: gone through that before, kind of, it doesn't have to
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: always be the same people. Although in your case, Catherine,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: it does.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And it is.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: Because Susan and I like, like that. No, but seriously,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean? So you kind of look
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: at that and you don't need a lot of people.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: You just need people, like I say, that are safe.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: And then the other thing is time.
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: There are some people say, I'll listen, but then after
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: a couple weeks, a couple months, it's like, okay, I'm
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: done with this. Well, that's not reality. Suffering and pain
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: and loss can go on for a long, long time.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: And so it's nice to find people that are comfortable
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: sitting in that pain as long as you need it.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Amen to that. That is so true. And when you
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: were talking about that, there may be some people that
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: you can lean into in the body of Christ that
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: they can carry some of the logistical pain of what
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: you're going through. Like we had a kind of shocking
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: job loss a while ago, and there was a lot
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: of logistical pain to that. And there were certain people
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: in my circle that were really good with the logistical
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: pain of what we were going through, the financial pain
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: of what we were going through, but not the emotional pain.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: And so lean in, figure out, okay, this person is
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: really great with helping out with the kids or with
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the house situation or even the financial situation. But maybe
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I need the long heart-to-heart coffee talks that I need
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: to have to get through the emotional pain of what
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going through. That may be a different circle. So
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: thank you for pointing that out. And recognize that when
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: you're going through suffering. And lean into those circles. Don't
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: discount the logistical circles because they can't handle the emotional pain.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Those logistical circles, praise God for them. Because when you're
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: going through a time of suffering, sometimes you just need
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: somebody to come and get the kids.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: And also as people, to recognize what is your gifting. Yes.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: And think, okay, for example, like what you're saying, people
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: that make meals.
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Right? Yes.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: So needed and so valuable. I will make you a meal,
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: but you would prefer somebody else to do it.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: Same.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: And so I.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Think that also that's just for, you know, recognizing what
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: am I good at and offering that. That's where the
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: body comes in.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: Amen.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Hey friends, it's Katherine here.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: If you're trying to be a godly parent in this
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: wild and wacky world, you need.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: All the help you can get. And I've got you covered.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: When you subscribe to my website, you'll get instant access
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: to tons of free resources made just for Christian parents.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: You'll get my prodigal bundle, which is packed with every podcast, article,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: and scripture list I've created for parents walking away. that
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: tough prodigal road. You'll also get my free e-book, Beyond
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: the Lies, uncovering five.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Myths that culture spreads to mothers.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Plus, powerful scripture lists to.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Pray over your kids and even scripture songs to help
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: your family hide God's word in your hearts without even trying.
• 36:07
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• 36:10
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• 36:14
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• 36:17
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• 36:19
  Speaker 1: That's katherineseegers.com and subscribe today because Christian parenting may be crazy,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: but you don't have to do it alone.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Amen. Susan, your thoughts?
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: I just think that knowing who your people are, like
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: when you're already suffering, you really don't need an extra.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Layer of judgment.
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: And so we really want to be people who understand
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: that just because somebody is wrestling or suffering through a
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: hardship doesn't necessarily mean that the core of their faith
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: is at risk. And I think a lot of times people,
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: when they see somebody who's wrestling, they worry about the
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: core of their faith. And so they're wanting to come
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: in and fix that. But again, it's just an area
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: where they're not really wanting to allow you to wrestle
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: through because it kind of messes with their own theology.
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: It just makes it, it makes it, there's just this
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: unsettling that happens. And so really what you need are
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: people who in your circle, who are confident in what
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: they believe, confident that in what, in where you are
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: with the Lord and just allow the Lord to defend himself.
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: Like we don't actually have to defend God. We don't
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: have to defend his honor. We don't have to defend
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: his word. We just have to trust it. And we
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: have to allow it to be evident in our lives.
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: And we also have to give it some space to
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: work itself out. And I think a lot of people
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: are uncomfortable with that.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that. That is so true.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: I think it messes with their own theology, their own
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: faith to see somebody in that kind of area. And frankly...
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Let's just point out there are different personality types, too.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Like my husband, he doesn't have to go to the
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: depths of understanding that I require. And certainly not the
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: depths of verbal processing that I require. He will listen
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: to it. He is so gracious and so patient with me.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: But he doesn't have to. He's just not hardwired in
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: a way where I need an answer. I need an answer.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I need to make sense of this the way that
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I am. Because we get in bed at night, five
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: minutes later, he's snoring and I'm still, you know, the
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: hamster wheel is still going in my brain. That's what
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: the two of you are for. So, but I think
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: it messes with some other people's theology. It doesn't mess
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: with his theology. It's just not a need that he,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: it's not a itch he needs to scratch. I am
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: hardwired in such a way where I'm like, God, I've
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: got to make some sort of theological sense of what
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: is happening here. and um it's really hard when you
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: go to a group of people who you love and
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: and who are part of your circle maybe they're part
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: of your family and they can't handle that and you
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: just need to recognize where you can go and i
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: just want to be really vulnerable and transparent here to
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: to share with the audience an area where i really
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: it was crazy i hit, I don't want to say
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: rock bottom. I wasn't like, I was still going to
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: wrestle through it, but it got ugly. It got ugly.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And it was this last year. And my regular listeners
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: know my husband lost his job last summer and had
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: to move to Nashville ahead of us. A whole year
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: ahead of us. So it was a pretty difficult year.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: This was coming off of a season of a good
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: bit of loss. Susan, you and I have been to
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: all the same funerals. Yeah. And it's like, you're like, God,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: I'm on all these prayer teams and these people keep,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I want to believe and I'm praying for
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: these people to live. And there we are. It's another,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: you know, the movie Four Weddings and a Funeral. I
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: think we were... The inverse of that. Did we go
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: to a wedding? I'm not sure. But I know we
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: went to a lot of funerals together. You and I
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: were in the room with our dear friend Shane when
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: he passed, and you helped me. Even still, in the
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: midst of all of that.
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: I.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Was able to lean into the fact that I really
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: believe that God took him at an opportune time for
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: him and his faith. so here these friends are dying
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: around me and where did I kind of hit my
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: lowest point was with a couple of cats. Like, how
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: is this? But what happened was I've been praying for
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: a long time for my daughter.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: My daughter, um, was struggling in her faith, was agnostic
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: for the better part of a year and was, you know,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: kind of had a friend circle that was all struggling.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: And I care about all of these girls. And she
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: has this friend. I don't want to say her name.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: I'll call her Brianna.
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: And Brianna came just from a hard background with a
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: mom who was at least, at the very least, emotionally,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: very severely emotionally abusive.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: And here's this young girl who the one thing she
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: has in life, she has a heart like mine. I've
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: always been a huge animal lover. So she collected these
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: little cats. And they were the only things in life
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: that really loved her unconditionally.
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: It was really sad and she was planning on moving out.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: She's now roommates with my daughter, but the plan was
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: to move out and to find some good homes. She
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: had three cats. One of them was disabled. His name
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: was Derek. He had one eye and I fell in
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: love with him, but I wasn't in a position to
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: keep him. And, um, there was another cat, uh, named Josie.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: She was pregnant and it, and she was pregnant because
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: the mom let the cats together. They were supposed to
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: be apart. She was just Anyway, she said that she
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: was lamenting the fact that her daughter was moving out.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: She wanted to exert some control. So on the coldest
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: night of the year, she took these cats and she
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: dumped them somewhere and wouldn't tell her daughter where they were.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, good grief.
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: Really?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: And she was begging her. Like, Brianna was begging her mother.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I'll pay. I'll give you money. I'll do anything. Just
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: tell me where they are. And my daughter and Brianna
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: went out that night and they couldn't find the cats.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: They couldn't find it. And we were particularly worried about
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Derek because of his eye. Let me tell you, this cat,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: like he would jump in your lap. It was the
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: sweetest cat I'd ever met. Well, so what happened was
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: Brianna came over to our house. And I was letting
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: her stay there. And I'm like, I've been praying so
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: hard for these girls. And I'm just going to bring
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: this to the Lord right now. And I'm going to
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: pray publicly. I'm going to like, I'm going to be
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: bold here. And so I said, girls, let's just pray.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Let's pray over the situation. I'm like, God, I just
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: ask you to be here in this situation. I ask
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: you to protect Derek and Josie and Amir. That was
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: the third cat. And I ask for your hand to
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: be involved and that you would just cover them and
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: you would send angels to protect them. And I pray, Lord,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: that you would just, you know, and secretly and sign
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: them like, God, please show up for these girls. I've
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: been praying for these girls to have an encounter with you.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: This seems like the perfect opportunity.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: And it's really small, right?
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: It's just some cats. Well, it was a pretty fitful night,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: and we found out the next morning where she had
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: dropped the cats. And they went to find them, and
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Derek was on the side of the road, and he
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: had died. He'd been hit by a car. He only
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: had one eye. Josie, we never found again. I don't
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: know where she is. I don't know what happened to
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: her and the kittens. And I know it's just a
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: couple of cats. And here I was with you, Susan,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: in a hospital room watching one of our dearest friends die.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: And somehow the cats brought me to this break. Because
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: I was like, it wasn't just the cats. It was
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: attached to these girls. And I wanted, I'm like, God,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like I rolled out a red carpet for you.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: And you didn't come. You didn't, that's how I felt.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm not questioning
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: whether God is present or he loved me, but it
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: didn't feel loving. I'm like, if I had the power
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: to change this for my child, I would have, but
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't do it for me and for them. So
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: first off, I was trying to wrestle through this. And frankly,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: this one really got my husband too.
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: Hmm.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Shane was one of his best friends as well. But
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: this one, because it just was like so little in
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: the grand scheme of life, I wasn't asking him to
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: heal a terminal illness. I was asking him to protect
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: a couple of cats. And Brian and I both really
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: struggled through this. And we pray over our kids every
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: single night. And sometimes if I'm sick, he will pray.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: And sometimes if he's sick, I will pray. But there
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: were a few nights that night or that week where
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: I wasn't physically sick, but I'm like, Brian, you got
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: to take it. Cause I'm, I just, I felt like
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: I wasn't even on speaking terms with God for a
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: few days. And I just want to be like, I'm
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: just laying it all out there. And I realized I
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: may get criticism for that, but where we're going to
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: be going in the next episode, I think is going
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: to show how scripture gives us permission to do this,
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: to wrestle like this. And so when I came to
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: the two of you, um, You sat with me. You
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: grieved with me. You didn't say I was being disobedient
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: or disrespectful or a bad Christian. You didn't question my faith.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: You gave me the time and the space to wrestle
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: through this. And I did. I still don't understand why.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: But I had to come back around and say, God,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: somehow in your sovereignty, I choose to trust you. that
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: you have a good reason for this, that you love
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: these girls more than I do, that you are going
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: to show up in a big way in their lives.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And maybe, maybe, maybe Brianna just needed to see a
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: mom who cared that much about what she cared about
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: because she doesn't have that. And maybe she needed to
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: see a mom who weeps with what she weeps over.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: because she is a God who weeps with what she
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: weeps over. Anyways, that's the kind of wrestling that you
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: need to have an inner circle to talk with. And
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: you guys were it for me. And you never once
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: made me feel, and there were others that really did
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: make me feel like this, this wrestling was disrespectful or
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: insubordinate or, or unchristian, unchristlike. Um, Stay tuned to the
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: next episode because we'll show how it's all in Scripture. But, Erin,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: just anything. You were there with me through all of
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: this moment. Or share one of your own stories. You're
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: welcome to share your thoughts on that kind of wrestling.
• 47:35
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I always do this. I start to throw a question
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: and then I keep going on. It's one of my
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: ADD things, which I'll put up with. Laughter through tears.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Isn't that out of Steel Magnolias? We're each other's Steel Magnolias,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: aren't we? But it just, the depth and the breadth
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: of the suffering can sometimes lead other people to really
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: question your faith in ways, and they can't handle it.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: But you guys can, and thank you for that. Thank
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: you for being here and reliving it all with me again.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: Well, I love what Susan said. You know, people want
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: to fix it to make it so that God fits
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: in a bowl.
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: But we don't know.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: What the Lord is doing. We don't know. And so
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: when we sit with people in pain, I think sometimes it's,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: it's a, it's a discipline to not try to fix
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: it and to not try to say, this is why. And,
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: you know, I have a client right now going through
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: something and I I think in our last session, I,
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: I think I have to apologize. I don't think I
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: did a good job because it was so, it was
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: so painful. And I, I mean, I, I don't think
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: I went too far, but it was hard for me
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: to sit in it and not want to try to
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: explain why this happened. So I just confess that to say,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard to sit with
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: people's pain as well. So just grace there. And I
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: will go back. to this client and just say, I
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: think I was wrong and I'm sorry. You know, when
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: a person, I think you said too, when a person
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: is hurting, you weren't, you were hurting over the cats.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: You were hurting over your daughter. You were hurting over
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: the deaths. You were hurting over the loss. And, That's
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: the other thing, too, is that the pain is, like,
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: it's related to these other pieces. And so that's where
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: it sort of has to be processed, too, you know.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that really answers your question.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I had a question.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: But just as I think about it, I just think,
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: you know, we don't always do it perfectly.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Mm-mm. But you guys, you just let me have that space.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: And I always want to let you guys have that space.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: I feel like y'all are always processing my issues more.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: I'm such a verbal processor. I think y'all help me
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: way more than I help you. I'm pretty sure.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: And one more thing I liked. I loved your understanding
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: of Brian's role. And I think that's a good piece
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: for people to hear. Because we sometimes put too much
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: pressure on our spouse or family members that we think
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: should help us.
• 50:43
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: You're my sister. You're my mother. You should help us.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: And I love that you were able to recognize who
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: he was and know that you needed to go to others,
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: you know, as well. But anyway, Susan, what's your thought?
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: I think that when we are in a season where
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: it just feels like loss after loss after loss and
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: hardship after hardship after hardship, or just whatever the struggle is,
• 51:07
  Speaker 5: you know, and you just wonder, oh, am I ever
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: going to get out of these things? And some of
• 51:11
  Speaker 5: them are very permanent, like with death and with other
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: things and job losses and just all of these little things.
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: And they're so big and they're so important. And you
• 51:22
  Speaker 5: want to pray and you want to be honorable with
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: the Lord. And you want to have that experience that says, God,
• 51:28
  Speaker 5: I trust you in these things. I trust you to
• 51:31
  Speaker 5: be in the big picture. You know, but oftentimes I
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: think that the enemy knows that. And so what he
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: does is he brings in those little things. He brings
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: in the cat situation. And then it just, as a Christian,
• 51:45
  Speaker 5: it's just like, it kind of brings us to that
• 51:48
  Speaker 5: breaking point of like, are you kidding?
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: It's the straw. It's the straw that broke the camel's
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: back right there. Yes. And it also is like, it's
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: something that really doesn't matter.
• 52:01
  Speaker 5: But yet it's so important. And that's the place where
• 52:04
  Speaker 5: we can just be like, OK, fine, whatever. I'm just
• 52:07
  Speaker 5: really irritated by this because it almost feels like it's
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: so insignificant.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't matter.
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: I can't really, you know, the average theology says, well,
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: I have to trust God in the timing of people's
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: lives or I have to trust God.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: In the bigger things.
• 52:22
  Speaker 5: And really, I've learned that the question that we're always
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: coming back to is, is God good? and is he
• 52:30
  Speaker 5: good to me and will he be good to my
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: children yes you know and so when we look at
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: these things i mean is god good yes he is
• 52:40
  Speaker 5: good is he good to me yes he's good to
• 52:42
  Speaker 5: me he provides he does all these things is he
• 52:44
  Speaker 5: good to my children i don't know my kid my
• 52:46
  Speaker 5: kid is hurting right and that's the place where as
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: a mom we're just like so vulnerable and we want
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: our kids to have the encounters with god we want
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: our kids to be walking with god to be strong
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: in their faith and to You know, and.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: The world is so cruel right now. And we just
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: want God to have like a touch of goodness.
• 53:06
  Speaker 5: And that's the place where we just become unraveled because
• 53:09
  Speaker 5: we are like, it was so small. You could have
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: done something better. But we fail to see that God
• 53:17
  Speaker 5: has a bigger picture. He's working out these things in
• 53:19
  Speaker 5: our own kids' lives. And we don't know how they've
• 53:23
  Speaker 5: been praying and how they've been wrestling and how maybe
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: they've even just been ignoring or walking away.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: And he's trying. to draw. He's trying to get their
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: attention and he's trying to do something different. And I
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 53:34
  Speaker 5: I mean, the wrestle is real. The pain is real,
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: but I often think it's the little things that kind of,
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: you know, where people are just like, oh, I've tried God.
• 53:44
  Speaker 5: It was just this and he didn't.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: That's exactly it. It was like, it was, it's like, okay,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: so I've been to all these funerals. I prayed that
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: all of these people would live, but this was just
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: it was just so small God and but and yet
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: it was important to the people that are so important
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: to me and to God and like don't you want
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: to show up for them and I'm not saying that
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: he didn't but it felt like that right and and
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: that's all the perspective I have and he knows that
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: I'm dust he knows that I'm human and you guys
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: allow me to be human yeah yeah well and we
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: have to recognize too that It's in those small moments
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: where we have to remind ourselves, yes, God really does
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: care about that cat. He really does.
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: Scripture talks about how there isn't a sparrow that falls
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: to the ground without God being aware.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: He knows. But I don't always know.
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: Why he chooses to do what he does and chooses
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: to not do what he doesn't do.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: And there's a huge question.
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: There's a lot of debates. But it really comes down to...
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: a few really anchoring scriptures. And we talked about the one,
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: you know, where else do we go? You have the
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: words of life. Like, I'm not going to go anywhere else.
• 54:57
  Speaker 5: But there's also that scripture that says, Lord, I do believe,
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: but help my unbelief. Like, I believe that you can
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: do all things, but in this one particular situation, I
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: really need you to come through.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: And I don't know what you're going to do, but
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: help my unbelief.
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: You know, help me here in this space where I
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: might really be questioning what you're doing. But, you know,
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: when that father of the little epileptic boy in Mark
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: 9 talked about that, and Jesus was talking to the father,
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: you know, of the little boy, not to the little
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: boy who was convulsing in front of him. He was
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: talking to the father. And when the man said, I
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: do believe, help me unbelieve, Jesus didn't criticize him.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: You know, he addressed that deeper need. And then he
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: healed the boy. you know, and then he moves. So
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: I'm always saying that when things don't work out the
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: way I want to, I'm hoping that God is dealing
• 55:51
  Speaker 5: with those areas in me that need to be worked out.
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: And then he's going to do whatever it is.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: That it was so crazy because it was the season
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: of nose, nose, nose to all the things I was praying.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: And to the point where I'm, I'll just share with
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: the audience. I kind of laughingly said, don't put me
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: on your prayer team. Cause I felt like I had
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: so many no's. Of course I'm going to keep praying
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: and I do. I pray. I'm such a fierce advocate
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: for prayer. I'm so passionate about prayer. We've moved to
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: a new state and I'm not on a prayer team
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: at my church anymore. And I'm like, I was just,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: I've been missing it cause I believe so much in prayer.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: And yet I felt like I was so beaten down
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: and it was, it was the, straw that broke the
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: camel's back. And so you guys were the ones that
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: allowed me to be in that place and didn't judge me.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: You didn't judge me for it. And I wanted to
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: share that example because I think there's some in our
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: audience would be like, well... you know, you guys, you know,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: you probably don't struggle with the same kind of stuff
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: that we do and silly stuff or these things. And
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I'm like this. And it was, it was silly, but
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: it was, it was, it's seeming, it's not silly. It
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: was seemingly insignificant, but that was, that was the part
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: that hurt so much was that it was like, it
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: was so little, what would have.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Cost him nothing.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And we're going to get to in the next episode,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: a portion of scripture that literally like, I can't believe
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: how much it mirrors so much of, of the struggling
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I know that I've had, but we're getting towards the
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: end of this one. So I think what we're going
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: to do is we're going to leave the other three
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: things we leave into and lean into in the next episode,
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: because I think there's something we do need to talk about.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: That's important. What is the difference between healthy wrestling and
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: losing hope? Because I think there is a line you
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: can cross and, At some point, and people have crossed it,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: and usually when people leave the faith, it's not over
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: some big theological issue or philosophical issue, or they just
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: finally got convinced from some scientific argument that, well, God
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: can't exist or I can't prove it enough, and so
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: therefore the preponderance of the evidence is somewhere else. It's
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: not those issues. It's usually something deeply personal and impacting.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: And so let's lean into that in our final moments
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: here to talk about the difference between healthy wrestling and
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: losing hope. And some people may get to that place
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: where you feel like you have completely lost hope. And
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: I understand that Susan's going to borrow the Bible. So
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: I know we're going someplace good now. Erin, what are
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: your thoughts on that? Because I'm sure you see this
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: a lot in your counseling practice. And maybe, you know, we're...
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: not just losing hope in your faith or Christianity, but
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: just losing hope in general. This is never going to
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: get better. This is always going to be this way.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: So what's the difference between those things?
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: So wrestling is a process. So I think that it's
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: normal to see some back and forth as well. It's
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: not a straight line, you know, and so you might like,
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: I loved how you said, I'm not praying, Brian, you
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: have to take it tonight. To me, that is healthy
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: and right. You're being honest with your feelings, but you
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: actually still leaned into God. You just let somebody else
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: do it.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is what I did. Thank you for pointing
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: that out because I kind of felt a little bad
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: about that. But I just I needed him to take
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: the lead because he was in a he wasn't in
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: a great place. It really hurt him, too, because he
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: saw what it did to the girls. And and he
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: really was confused by it as well. But I was
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: able he was doing a little better than I was.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: So I leaned into him.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: Well, and the next night he might have leaned into you.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: That's the beauty. But you both went to the Lord.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: And then I think about the scripture that says, even
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: when we're faithless, God is faithful. And so I think,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: and Susan, I think mentioned that, you know, the Lord
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: understands us. He understands our plight. He understands the human heart.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: He understands suffering. And he is not judging. We kind
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: of think, oh, you dropped off there.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: You're done.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: Whereas.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: He's long-suffering, and He carries us when we can't carry ourselves.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: So I think healthy wrestling keeps coming back to God.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: And it's healthy even to go, I'm not talking to you.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: You're still acknowledging God, right?
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: You're still acknowledging, but you're just like.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: So I think healthy wrestling continues to engage with the Lord,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: however that looks. and keeps coming and keeps turning back
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: to him. Unhealthy is when we begin to take a
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: heart somewhere else. And what I mean by that is
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: potentially an addiction or alcohol or something else that soothes
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: or we harden our heart. And there's a difference between
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: a hard heart and a hurt heart.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: That is kind of what I would say. And then
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to go back and say, too, that
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: our life is made of small moments. So there's nothing
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: small because some of our greatest answers to prayer are simple.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: You know, so I think that makes sense, too. And
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: I think as people, that's another thing I notice in
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: counseling is that we will judge a pain.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: OK, that's a big pain. You have a right to
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: feel bad. That's not a big pain. You should be
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: over it. But that's not how the Lord works. It's, it's, um,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: what are you, you know, he's personal to our suffering.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: I remember one time a friend of mine, we were
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: sitting in church and they were talking about some suffering.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: I can't remember exactly what, but if you're hurting to
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: stand up. And I said to her, I said, stand up,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: you know, because she was going through something. And her
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: answer was, well, it's not as bad as what that
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: person's going through.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, I do that all the time.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: And I was like, you know what? This isn't a competition.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: This is an honest relationship and God cares. You're where
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: you're at suffering with what you're suffering and it matters.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: So stand up. So I think that too is important
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: that we don't judge people's suffering because we don't know
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: what's going on inside.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: No. Well, and I think too, that wrestling with God
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: is fine.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 5: You know, I, I want to take the hard questions
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 5: in life and I want to, I want to ask God, Hey,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: what's your, what are your thoughts on here?
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: What are you doing? How are you working this out?
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: Rather than being like, okay, I can't trust you anymore.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: I would much rather wrestle with God than walk away
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: from God. You know, I'm just not going to do that.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: Because where else am I going to go? First of all,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 5: And then the other scripture that I love so much,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 5: and it's in Zechariah 12, 9, and I wanted to
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: make sure I had the right scripture reference. It says,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: this basic overall thing that's happening in this time is when,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 5: you know, the Israelites have been at war.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: They've been held captive.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: They've been all of these different things, you know, and
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: they're right at the edge of things shifting. And it
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: says in Zechariah 12, 9, return to your fortress, O
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: prisoners of hope. And I think that that describes me
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 5: so often. I just perpetually hope. I trust God is
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: going to do these things. And my hope is in
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: the finished work of the cross. My hope is in Jesus.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: And sometimes my life doesn't look like that that's where
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 5: my hope is. But I have to keep returning there.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: I have to return and understand that no matter what
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: else there is, I am a prisoner of hope. I
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 5: am always hoping and trusting that God is going to
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: do something in the big things, but mostly in the
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: little things.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: Like I want that. And I, sometimes I feel like that.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 5: Sometimes I feel like I live as a prisoner of hope.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: You know, I, that's why, that's why you're in my
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: inner circle because you're always so positive. Both of you
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: are actually, but it, Sometimes I feel y'all are the
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: hope and I'm the prisoner. Sometimes I feel like in
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: those seasons of suffering, but I love that a prisoner
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: of hope. We, we always come back to hope and
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: you actually leaned into the next thing we need to
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: lean into. So I'll tease that out. You were talking
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit earlier. I'm always trusting in the, the
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: goodness of God, that God's going to be good to me,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: that he is good. He's going to be good to
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: me and he's going to be good to my children
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: and And that's the next thing we need to lean
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: into that we'll pick up in the next episode. Three
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: other things we're going to lean into, but the first
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: one is God's character. We have to lean into his
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: character in those moments. So any final thoughts you have, Erin,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: before we wrap this one up and we'll pick it
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: back up and finish this conversation. First off, before, see,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: I did it again. I started to ask you a
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: question and then I interrupted myself. Couldn't grieve. Sorry, but
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: I just want to, I think we both want to
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: commend Susan here. Is this your first podcast?
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: Is she not a pro? Hear me. Standing ovation, even
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: though we're sitting down, we're standing in our hearts. Your
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: insights and you're just so incredible, like incredible. I'm so
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: in awe of both of you. We easily have a
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: conversation with the two of you, no matter.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 5: What we're doing.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: I know, this is going to have to be a thing,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: you guys. It's going to, because there's some theological topics
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: that I would really love to wrestle through on the show,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: because we do it all the time, right? Did you
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: see this? What do you think of that? What do
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: you think of this book? We're always going back, but
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: I think this needs to be a thing, the three
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: of us, on the show. I think we're going to
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: have to come back and hash out other topics as well.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: But anyway, any final thoughts, Erin? I'm actually going to
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: throw it to you this time. Yeah, no.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: I think that we have said, well, God is, I
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: love that Prisoner of Hope, and I love that when
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: we are faithless, he is faithful. And that the point
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: of suffering is to draw us closer to him and
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: to get a good eye on what really matters. And
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: we're going to live with questions. Not everything's going to
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: be answered. Because as Susan said, the hope is the
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: cross and the hope is this isn't the end. This
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: life isn't the end. The better is yet to come.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Well said, Erin. There we go. Well, we
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: will pick this back up and dig into three other
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: things that we need to lean into when we're going
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: through a season of suffering with the ladies who have
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: walked me through it all.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: If this conversation helped you today, I want to encourage
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: you to share it with a friend who might need
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: to hear it too. So Susan has a young woman
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: who is a friend and she told her what we
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: were going to be talking about in this episode about
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: wrestling with God through the things that he allows in
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: this life. And she said, oh my goodness, I was
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: just talking with a group of women about this and
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: they were telling me, no, you can't wrestle with God.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: You just have to accept what happens in life and
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: trust that he is sovereign and All the things I
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: said in the beginning, and she really was so excited
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: that we were going to be talking about this. Our
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: other Bible study, the one that Susan and I are
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: in together, one of.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: The ladies there asked what we were going to be
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: talking about. And I told her, and she said, Can.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: I be in your studio audience? I'm like.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: I don't have one of those yet, but who knows?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: Maybe we will now that we are in the Nashville area.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: But I know that this is a topic so many
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: of us need to understand biblically. How do you approach
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: these seasons in life? Because they can really derail us.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: Maybe it doesn't take us all the way out of
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: the faith, but I know for a lot of people
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: it does. This is where they get hung up and
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: maybe even walk away from the faith altogether. But if
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: it doesn't derail us from our faith in God, it
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: can certainly derail us from our purpose. And we don't
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: want that to happen.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: So definitely tune in next week because that's when we're
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: going to bring all of this together, you guys. there
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: is a chapter of scripture that God led me to
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: in a pretty extraordinary way during a recent season of suffering.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: It was after the loss of a very, very dear friend.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: And what I discovered in that passage, honestly, it just
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: blew my mind. It literally is a roadmap for wrestling
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: through disappointment over what God has allowed to happen in life.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: And what he showed me confirms that. everything we've been
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: talking about today. I cannot wait to share that with
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: you next week. So if you're not convinced yet, next
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: week we are going to make what I believe is
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: the most powerful biblical case for why wrestling with God
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: isn't a failure of faith. No, I think it's actually
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: an invitation to go deeper in your faith. And our kids,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: they need to see us. They need to see us
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: wrestling through.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: These tough issues.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: I believe it's going to help them to stand strong
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: as well. You don't want to miss it.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: And as always, remember, God gave you your kids, your
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: specific kids for a reason. That's because you hold the
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: key to unlocking who God created them to be.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 6: Christian Parent Crazy World is a production of Life Audio
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 6: and Salem Media.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard today, please take a second.
• 1:10:26
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• 1:10:30
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• 1:10:30
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• 1:10:33
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