Latest / Reframe First / Pat Cormier, Founder of Intarsia Solutions | Leadership, AI & Navigating Change
Transcript
- Oleksij Rak: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Reframe First. I'm Alexey Khasov, the podcast. Let me welcome our today's Pat Korngeir, founder of Fintarsia Solutions. So, hi Pat, it's great having you here. Pat: Hi Alex, it's great to be here, thank you. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, thanks for joining. So ⁓ could you tell us ⁓ about like ⁓ solutions altogether and what you're there, you're trying, what you're building, what you're trying to achieve, what your mission is? So, please. ⁓ Pat: or absolutely. I started about five years ago my own practice of executive coaching ⁓ management consulting. Primarily, I work in the space of change and transformation. I work with leaders of organizations, any size, any industry for that matter, global. ⁓ And work with them as they navigate change. I've spent my last... Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I'm all about that. That's the only thing that I'm not allowed to 15 years, nothing. Okay, I'm gonna answer. Sorry, I'm not allowed to answer. not allowed to I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Pat: 15 years working with change leaders and started ⁓ with Cotter International, which is a consulting firm that was started by John Cotter, who's thought leader in leadership and change and started consultant practice about 15, 16 years ago now. Really working with organizations to differently as ⁓ they go through and market shifts and everything else. Oleksij Rak: . Pat: That's what I've been doing for the last 15 plus years. Oleksij Rak: That's a lot of working with leaders. Pat: leaders and teams and everywhere in between. Oleksij Rak: what are the typical questions that leaders come to you? Pat: how to move faster. How to move faster. How to help my employees embrace change and new vision to move faster. Usually it's about moving faster. Oleksij Rak: All right, yeah. I have the same request, know. Now that I hear like, yeah, we need to embrace change and we need to start moving faster. And I have no clue how to achieve that. what's the typical approach? How do you do it? Pat: Ha ha ha ha! the art? So you're asking what the secret sauce is for that, right? ⁓ Yeah, well, I ⁓ I think ⁓ first thing is ⁓ lot of leaders within the business space, and I work with business government nonprofit as well, and a lot of folks sort of look at dealing with people as the soft skills. ⁓ And I actually they're hardest skills of all. Oleksij Rak: maybe. Mm-hmm. Pat: and they're the most important. so, you know, when you approached me to have this conversation about reframing, I was intrigued by ⁓ the that you used, because I actually think the ability to reframe in this today is the new superpower, because ⁓ that's how help people within organizations that are dealing with significant pace of change, significant uncertainty. not knowing what the future is going to hold. We have ⁓ issues, right? And so how we help them deal with the fear, the anxiety and all of those things to be able to move through it, even if you're not necessarily fully embracing it, but at least move through it is important. And I think we have over time, through technology and automation and other things, we've kind of put people at the back burner for a while now. been focusing on systems, we've been focusing on AI, we've been focused always about productivity and technology and how do we increase our productivity. And a little bit to the detriment of how do we help people, the individuals, the ⁓ actually ⁓ handle Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah. When I came up with this idea of reframing, it was first of all reframing the business models because business models are not functional anymore. And since you mentioned the world is changing, it's changing indeed. All this geopolitical uncertainties and like age of ⁓ AI then like new regeneration of people and like a lot of everything. Like money is expensive. ⁓ Pat: Yeah. Yeah. Oleksij Rak: All of that together brought to the fact that previous for frame is not functional. ⁓ Pat: Well, yeah, you're right. mean, think the business models, know, one of the things that I learned with Cotter in the work that I did with them leading into the work that I'm doing now you know, there really is a science to ⁓ and helping people navigate it. The one is from a business model perspective, what I'll say is even from a business structure perspective, it's no longer working. If you think about the traditional ways in which businesses are structured, it's very hierarchical, it's very top down, least has been traditionally. And if you think of the speed in which communication now travels, and that structure of how long it would take from the CEO all the way down to the frontline staff and back again, how long that communication would take. to be able to act on it in today's pace and change, too slow, it's too cumbersome. So how do we work more collaboratively? How do we break down the silos? How do we make it more, or more, but ⁓ and at the same time as providing those efficiencies and structure processes of the hierarchy? So that's one thing from a business model perspective. The other thing that I would say that's no longer working is our on leadership is no longer working. You know, it used to be within that hierarchy, the way that it worked the higher you up, the more information you got. You hoarded that information because that information was power. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Pat: That power then allowed you to continue to move up. we have to really, I think, reframe the we look at leadership to be more grassroots, more collaborative, more empowering, less control, more trust, so that we can move faster. Because the more that we control things, it just impedes speed. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, sounds very like fortune something kind approach because yeah, all this information silos and all this stuff is like, it sounds like huge organizations, but you know, it still affects ⁓ all organizations of all ⁓ sizes ⁓ Pat: absolutely. It affects all sizes. It's just the degree, the scope and scale and degree. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like modern ⁓ of like AI ⁓ you're so much becoming so much capable and capable horizontally because like in the end, like previously you were supposed to dive deeper ⁓ certain field to be specialist there. Now you can extend your horizons and you are capable of much more. And the question of leadership comes play, like, why do we need the leader? Or why do we need the manager? Everything changes. ⁓ one of goals, to understand what the new rules of the game are, because we don't really understand it yet. Pat: Yeah. When it's interesting that you mentioned the manager and why do you need the manager, know, in traditional, in the past, that middle manager was sort of the linchpin that allowed organizations to grow, right? Because senior most person or the founder or whomever could not possibly, you know, make decisions and manage everything. So eventually that middle manager role was created. Well, to your point now, is AI threatening that middle manager? And what I would challenge is, at least in the near term and the immediate future, we need ⁓ and from a behavioral perspective across the up and down and throughout, right? ⁓ And what done... is my feeling, is ⁓ we've done over the last several decades is we've somewhat stunted the ability and the capability of our people within organizations to be able to lead because we focused on management so much. And so there's a ⁓ contingent of people that have simply just been told what to do. They've stopped trying to come up with ideas because they get shot down. They've stopped thinking creatively or holistically about the organization because they haven't been encouraged to do that. And so they're just waiting to be told what to do. challenge ⁓ you need people who can... Oleksij Rak: you Pat: think creatively, think creatively. We don't want to to underdevelop that side of it, not only ⁓ our structure and current leadership styles, but we also don't want to do that with AI. mean, AI could literally people even further by their reliance on it in terms of how they think creatively and innovatively ⁓ and picture. those are all leadership behaviors that we need to cultivate in everyone in all of our organizations, not just positional leadership. Oleksij Rak: I agree with you. Maybe next one be with ⁓ companies which did you work the most and how do like current trends ⁓ affect them? Because definitely saw something ⁓ and trends being new generation Gen coming into play, they are behaving. they're expecting different approaches. Then the same AI, how the companies adapt to that. I know, ⁓ like these uncertainties, job insecurities, ⁓ how do of this, like what do you see the most that the companies, that the businesses are affected by and how and like in which industry. just. Let's start from that and like dive deeper some. Pat: Yeah, sure. In terms of the industries that I've worked in, I have quite a bit of experience, ⁓ me, healthcare, whether it's pharma or manufacturing within healthcare providers. On the provider side, it's primarily US-based, but in the pharmaceutical ⁓ and it's on a global perspective. I've worked with... nonprofits, like I've said, I've worked within government industry, what would say is the work that I do from a leadership perspective and a change perspective, it's somewhat industry agnostic, right? ⁓ Everybody's experiencing it. from that perspective, I've worked in a broad sense. What I will say, ⁓ Oleksij Rak: I lost. Pat: in terms of what they're facing now from a generational perspective. Right about now, ⁓ could actually, because people are living longer, ⁓ you could work for an organization that has four to five different generations Oleksij Rak: Mm. Pat: You could be a Gen X leading a boomer or having boomers report to you or vice versa, right? And Gen Z on coming in and everything else. So, how you lead and how you manage is challenging because each of those generations have different ways of communicating and Oleksij Rak: ⁓ Pat: in ways of communicating. They have different ideals and beliefs about privacy. They have different thoughts around ways in which they should approach work and what you leave at the door when you come into the office, right? Different ideals about that. They have different desires around purpose and purpose-driven work. And so all of that leads to complexity when not only when you're just trying to get a product out the door, but more importantly, when you're trying to get a product out the door and deal with something as massive as AI, becomes challenging. Even the words you use, the way that you communicate, the that you use, ⁓ which is one of the reasons why when I work with organizations, Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Pat: I tell them that how you communicate becomes really, really important. different vehicles, methods, there's nothing, what I would say, there's nothing ⁓ stronger than communication. So the more you can involve others in the organization, Oleksij Rak: Okay. Pat: again as leaders of the organization to help communicate the vision, what you're trying to do, why you're trying to do it, why will you be better off for it. That messaging becomes critical to helping people accept it and embrace it and help you. Oleksij Rak: Which generations do you think are more easy to... easy too, but ⁓ we talk about curiosity on one hand and script on the other hand, what it's like. Because a lot of businesses are ⁓ about working through the script. So you have your own description and you step by step execute what's expected from you. Current tool is all about curiosity, it's about learning something new every day. because it's evolving so fast that we just need to keep up to keep being effective. And of generations are easy to adapt to. Pat: Oh, that's a tough question. I'm gonna split it up a little bit because I think, you know, look, there are not, this is gonna sound like a sweeping generalization, but obviously younger generations are more digitally inclined, digital natives. They've grown up in their life always having one of these, right? So, you know, Oleksij Rak: Sure. Pat: from a technology perspective, think right now younger generations pick it up and it and ⁓ to it differently. But a curiosity perspective, which I think is different, ⁓ I would say ⁓ that generation is curious. think I would put that more on an individual level. I do think that the curiosity Oleksij Rak: Okay. Pat: may be different, right? And it's different by the person, perhaps not generationally, right? So someone might be inclined to be really curious about the human aspect of technology and what is driving the human behavior and whatnot. And then someone else may be entirely curious about the technology and how to make the technology better, faster. I think curiosity is in all of us. ⁓ And ⁓ believe as we age, I ⁓ would to believe, as I'm aging, I believe this to be true for me, is that I'm ⁓ as curious I was when I was younger, ⁓ I'm now that curiosity with a different wisdom. than I did when I was younger. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, ⁓ see ⁓ reason why I asked is because this pace, it's not only about curiosity, it's about that push to get to the end, to get to know it because some people ⁓ are quite to give up and they do not this immediate result, this first result. are quite easy to give up. ⁓ people are about to push further. I maybe there is some generational differences, but from what I hear, it's quite likely not. ⁓ Pat: Well, think, and I also think too that before making sort that generalization, I think also ⁓ what we often do ⁓ is create environment where people can move faster, right? ⁓ So you talking about, I noticed on your website and talking about Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Pat: leaving corporate, you mentioned bureaucracy, right? And bureaucracy gets in our way all the time too, in terms of moving fast. So does lack of focus and clarity, right? So if I don't know what the priorities are for the organization and what the vision is, I'm gonna move slower than someone else, right? And so, Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Pat: There's a lot of variables that go into quickly we move and the term that ⁓ use from my days ⁓ Cotter and still the work that I do with Cotter because I'm an affiliate with them still is do we create a sense of urgency for the people in our organization on what's important for our organization? And in to do that, we have to help them have clarity around what it is we're trying to do and why, and why it's important. And also for the individual, why should I care? And I don't think we spend enough time doing that to help people. And by the way, here's where it gets tricky. What I would say to that last piece of why should I care, that is where the multiple generations is gonna have a significant impact because why a boomer should care is vastly different than why a Gen Z-er should care, right? Because there are different places in their lives. So we have to find a way in which we can communicate the benefits to all the stakeholders of multiple generations, not just one over the other. Oleksij Rak: There. Yeah, I understand. And that's good coins that you raised. Yeah, we removed the bureaucracy from the company. We do not have it. But still, are burning out with this current pace. ⁓ ⁓ cannot give them the answer why. Our demand the change. We asked for the change, but people are resistant to the change. Pat: Yeah. And burnout, you mentioned burnout too. And I do think that that's a real, it's a very real, real thing. and, know, oftentimes when I work with organizations and I do a lot of leadership development courses as well with, with people from a variety of different organizations and I will ask them and they can be anywhere from a senior leader to, you know, sort of middle manager level often. And I will ask them, how many of you go to the same people all the time because you know they will get stuff done? And almost always everybody raises their hand. And then the next question is, okay, so let's say that's three or four people on your team that you always go to. And then the next question is, how many people do you have on your team? Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Pat: And it's more, it's usually double, whatever. And ⁓ point is twofold. One, then you have reduced your capacity by that number. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Pat: Right, yet most people, I haven't worked with anyone yet that has ever said, I have plenty of resources, I'm okay with that, it's not right. And yet you are reducing your capacity by always going to those four people. then the other point is, well, you're training the other people on your staff that they don't have to do anything because those other four people are gonna do it. And so how do we start to really, again, coming back to how we lead and work with our people, how do you develop those people so that they are wanting to help, we are distributing the work effectively, we are looking at developmental ways to encourage to share the work, right? Because that's partly why people are burning out. you've got those people that you're always tapping, so does the next person and the person next to them. And guess what? Those 20 projects you're working on that are important to the organization are being worked on all by the same people across all the different functions. And then we scratch our head wondering why they're burning out. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. people are quite often burning out because of the place because they cannot keep up Yeah, yeah Sure, with like coming back to the market, right? like we touched on some ai ⁓ generations ⁓ and ai stuff What what else do you see happening right now in the corporate world in the world? What's touching the businesses most? Pat: Well, you I will say in ⁓ healthcare space, AI is a big one ⁓ in terms of how utilize it, how to help people want to use it. You know, it is, right now I'm seeing people ⁓ sort of it as a task-based tool, if talking broadly across organizations. Oleksij Rak: for sure. Pat: In the health space, obviously, they're using it from a science perspective, which is really exciting. And I think from a research point of view and in other, whether it's radiology or other areas, it really is. They're looking at the vast opportunities of what it can help from a diagnosis and a cure perspective, which is really, really exciting from a. broad across all function kind of perspective. It's still really task oriented people are afraid of it for the most part. lot of people, some people are excited by it. Some people are afraid of it. I'm also you know, I think AI is going to be really interesting from a supply chain perspective from a, you know, I was just reading an article about an air craft company using it for luggage and routing luggage and, you know, at an airport, you know, prioritizing what bags needed to get put on different planes sooner and because of delays and whatnot. it cut down their loss luggage by 30%. ⁓ So like that are going to continue. Proof points like that I think are going to be really, really valuable to show what it is possible of. And how we bring people is going to be ⁓ really important in regard. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Pat: People are afraid of losing their jobs. Another article that I read was, there was a gentleman and this is To me, this is why leadership is going to matter for the next generation. just read an article about a CEO who owns a founder of the company, I believe. He fired 80 % of his staff because he did not think that they would be able to adapt to accommodate for AI fast enough. And so he fired 80 % of his staff to rehire for people who had the skills and the and curiosity that you were just talking about, He it was better, faster and easier to hire, rehire for that than to try to work with the people within his organization to be able to adapt and embrace it. To me, ⁓ ⁓ one way to go, but to me, I look at that as a failure of leadership and detriment to society. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Pat: like to believe it doesn't have to be that way. And ⁓ that's what up against. Oleksij Rak: How do we lead the people through the change? Because I have also examples. ⁓ about firing people. You diagnosis. If a friend of mine is selling some equipment with some AI tools that are helping to do diagnosis. He's coming to a clinic to sell this equipment or install that equipment because it's already sold. He's trying to train them and they're like, nah, we are not using that. And that just sounds like job insecurity because they're afraid that they will be replaced with that equipment. But still, people are not ready to accept that. AI and all these tools are here to stay. So they're going anywhere. They're becoming even more powerful every day. Pat: Yeah. Oleksij Rak: I have the same issue in our company because some people do embrace the change as I mentioned, but others are like on the opposite end. And they're like, man, it's AI, it cannot write good code or whatever. So, and like, how do we lead the people through that phase, through that period? How do we make them embrace that change? it's not, you know, it's not... Pat: Yeah. Oleksij Rak: AI that will replace human. It's human with AI that will replace another human. Pat: Well, ⁓ great point and a great way of looking at it. And by way, that was a quick example of reframing right there to help people understand that. If you, is here stay in some form or configuration. so how do you them see that? Oleksij Rak: Hmm. ⁓ Pat: there's something called Roger's Law of Diffusion, right? For technology and technology adoption has been around for forever. And you talk about innovators and laggards, right? they amount to about the same amount of people percentage-wise. And there's always gonna be folks that are late and laggards that are gonna take a while to get on board. We tend to focus our attention on them and they tend to demand our attention. when you're trying to shift organizational culture or even a broad culture, the best approach is to focus on the people that ⁓ innovating and adopting it and trying to go up that curve to get the ⁓ ⁓ the early majority to help start to create critical momentum. So how talk about it. Oleksij Rak: Hmm. Pat: and the way in which we can talk about it, just like what I was here, showing the benefits, the tangible benefits, the proof points, because that's what people are looking for. They're looking to understand why, and they're looking to see that and show me how this is going to work and how I'm gonna be better off for it, right? So ⁓ using example ⁓ of airline in lost luggage, can communicate to just about anyone who's ever lost their luggage to say 30 % reduction and lost luggage just because of AI. Isn't that fantastic? And there was a tool that was given to a baggage handler. So to your point, it's people ⁓ AI that are going to be putting who's ⁓ not to adapt and use AI out of a job. Right. And so the more we show those small, tangible, relatable examples will help people understand why there's benefit to this. we have to do more of that. because new, we have keep doing that over and over again. How long have you been working ⁓ with AI? ⁓ Oleksij Rak: Thank since 22. Pat: Okay, so since 22, you've been working with it for about four years. There are people who have never touched it. just know the term. And so while we're comfortable with it, we have to get those folks that are further away from it comfortable too. this is gonna, it's gonna have its own arc and the question is how deep we make that curve to adoption? Oleksij Rak: Yeah, exactly. So that was my follow-up question, because that sounds like a cultural change. And cultural change in a company usually takes year, like 12, 18, 24 months. So from a year to two years. That's the pace of cultural change if everything is fine. But right now everything is not fine first, and second, I am not sure if have that year or two years time. Pat: Yeah Oleksij Rak: We need to move faster, we need to adapt faster because us as a business can be out of market, because market is changing too fast. And that's the reason probably of this podcast, I tried to understand how to refine the business, but also we need to bring people up to speed because with new tools, with new approaches, if you do not adapt, we might be out of business. That's it. Pat: Yeah, I would say is length of time for culture change really depends on, I say a lot with clients, until they're probably sick of me ⁓ of hearing it, how you go about doing it matters, right? So oftentimes we spend more time ⁓ on the execution. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Pat: of it as opposed to more time on the people aspect of it. And what I will say is if you spend more time on the people aspect of it, the execution actually goes faster. So for example, how many people are in your organization? or the companies you work with? How many employees do you have? Oleksij Rak: I would like 50 to 60, please. Pat: Okay, so I've worked with organizations that have had 18,000 employees in the area that I've worked in, right? They were going about a significant cultural change. When we started working with them, they had just laid off half their organization and they needed to really... recover from that and they were making a significant shift. This was an ⁓ auction company. They were making a significant shift to automation and digital and online auctions as opposed to in-person auctions. So, I would say within six months we were able to ⁓ urgency. ⁓ And what I mean by urgency is at least it's aligned in what the organization is trying to do. People are bought into it, whatever. Within about six months of these 18,000 people, what is, is that mean, does that mean that everything has gone from zero to 60, we're now good, don't worry about it in six months? No, but it means that a meaningful shift has taken place within the cultural mindset of what's possible. started working differently. They focused on one particular area that ⁓ meant to drive revenue, drove revenue significantly, right? So it's a combination ⁓ not aligning the employees, it's also from a leadership. perspective aiming those employees on what going to drive the needle. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Pat: Right? Because if they aren't aimed at what's going to drive the needle and, and kind of shown how this makes us better off, then they're just going to wake up in the morning and keep doing what they've always been doing. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Yeah, that's about some shared goal and motivation to get there Yeah, I hear you Awesome. Like what are your bets about the future? Where is it going? Where are we going to be in like year time two years of time? Pat: Yeah, yes, yeah. In a year's time, two years time, oof. Oleksij Rak: to yours is too far, ⁓ moving so fast nowadays. Pat: I'm Wow, that's such a question, such a question. not good prognosticator. ⁓ I what I'll tell you is where I hope we are is I that we have more leadership, behavioral leadership in the world, that people, whether it's ⁓ within... countries within organizations within communities feel empowered to recognize they have. more power and ability than what they probably believe they have right now. I hope that the business world recognizes that they have a responsibility beyond just shareholders. That is what? ⁓ Not a year's I don't. Oleksij Rak: Do believe that? ⁓ Pat: But I do believe that that's... know, some of that is driving what we're facing today. Right? Like, people have to have... People have to have a reasonable leave. And if they don't, then what's the point? Oleksij Rak: I believe that corporate world thinks about profits only, about revenues only, about how to drive change. ⁓ Pat: Well, and to be quite frank, that's one of the problems that we face today. John first started, John Cotter first started his research and his work, it was years ago studying General Electric and other major corporations that were facing significant change. And research showed that 70 to 75 % of the change efforts that corporations were taking on failed. They failed to reach their expectations and failed to reach the goals that they set out for. Right? And of the 25%, 30 % that were successful, a number of them were moderately, like they didn't reach everything. Only 5 % roughly were fully successful. Now, Think about the pace of change back then. This was 35, 40 years ago. The pace of change back then. Think about the change efforts, technology that was driving it. You'd probably change it ⁓ once 10 years, right? ⁓ McKinsey did a research similar, now probably 10 years ago. That number hadn't changed. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Pat: So that tells us, those two data points tell us that we aren't getting any better at this. And yet change is happening more and more and we're not getting any better at it. And the reason why we're not getting any better at it is because of what you just said. We're focusing more on the profits, more and more, less and less on the people, less and less on our employees. The talk about generations. The younger generations have learned from the mistakes of the boomer generations where they stayed with companies yeah, they might've been employed ⁓ 40 years for ⁓ company for their entire life. Next generation came and that promise went away. Now ⁓ ⁓ getting laid off and whatever. so younger generations are like, I'm not making that mistake. I'm not going to do that. So. what's their reason to believe and what is their belief in their future. And as leaders, if we don't start to think about that as our employees, because that's what our employees are thinking about, that's what they care about. And if we aren't starting as leaders to start to think about that, number is not gonna get any better. And that's what I worry about for the next year, two years, five years, 10 years. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and we was, it won't change. So that's why I still believe. Pat: Well, so I don't like to believe that because change is inevitable. So something is going to change. Something is going to change. And I prefer to think that we are as humans, hopefully smart enough to change and we have to do it one human at a time. And that's the interesting thing about cultures everybody looks around and say, you know, if we're in a company and we don't like the culture, everybody looks around and says, Yeah, it won't change here. That's just our culture. as long as you believe that, it won't change. And so we have to own how ⁓ we show up differently and how do we change it. You your own company. Hopefully you're running your company differently than the companies that you came from. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Maybe. Maybe I'm better, maybe I'm worse. I don't know. Pat: Well, you're doing this, so I like to think that you're doing it better. So I still have to believe that we can do better. Oleksij Rak: Awesome. that an interesting discussion. Is there anything you would like to add up on top of that? Pat: No, just wish you well. I wish your colleagues well. who, and I said this to you when you first approached me, anyone who has part of their brand ⁓ as had enough, companies, corporations eating fun and taking the fun and effectiveness out of things and no bullshit ⁓ as part of brand. you're doing things differently and you're being transparent and you're being honest ⁓ I think that's what people need to have a reason to believe. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, thanks, Ben. Appreciate it. Well, thanks a lot for your time. Thanks for joining. And wish you good luck in changing the corporate environment, in changing the leadership approach. Yeah, thanks a lot. Have a great day. Bye. Pat: Sure. Sure. All right. Stay in touch, please. ⁓ Same. Same. You too, bye bye.