Latest / Simply Christ Podcast / The Study of Communion - Simply Christ Podcast

Transcript

The Study of Communion - Simply Christ Podcast · Simply Christ Podcast

0:07
Welcome back to the Simply Christ podcast hosted by Leon
0:11
Martin, along with Aaron Keaton, Melvin Martin, Andrew Schrock
0:14
and Dan Blatz. Let's get right to it.
0:18
That shit right off to you Dan here.
0:21
So when we think of taking communion again, like probably a
0:27
lot of subjects, I, I feel as if they're, if they, oftentimes
0:33
they've been, you know, manipulated by, by humans.
0:39
I don't know if it's by churches or just by people.
0:43
Sometimes, sometimes probably in a good way, other times in a, in
0:46
a way that kind of skews our view of what it actually is.
0:51
According to the Bible. We, we look at the subject often
0:55
times with some kind of a preconceived idea that was given
1:00
us from not the word of God, you know, just from influence and
1:04
and suggestion and what different things have done.
1:08
So like, you know, kind of overview to start off, just tell
1:13
me kind of what kind of like we started off the the whole thing
1:17
on baptism, like why, what's it for?
1:20
And you know, why, why are we why should we be?
1:24
Why we should we care about this, the subject of community
1:26
that way that. OK, yeah, that's a fairly broad
1:31
question that I'm not quite sure how which angle to to chase it
1:36
down from. But very much like community,
1:40
like baptism, it's one of the things that the church does
1:44
right. Most people will say that the
1:45
church is supposed to do communion, is supposed to do the
1:47
Lord's Supper. Some would throw in by foot
1:50
washing in there. And these are basically the
1:53
things that the church ought to do when they get together and
1:58
it's I it's because it's so misunderstood the Catholic
2:02
system. They believe something that they
2:04
called transubstantiation, meaning that they believe that
2:08
the body and blood of Jesus was actually physically present in
2:13
the mass. When the priest hands out the
2:16
bread and the wine, he's actually literally physically
2:18
handing you the actual body, the actual blood of Jesus, so that
2:22
you have to take communion in order to stay in fellowship with
2:25
God. You have to eat the body, drink
2:27
the blood to gain access to God, to keep in favor with God.
2:31
You go and confess your sins to the priest.
2:34
You take your mass and then you stay in good standing with God
2:36
because you're physically eating it.
2:38
Then the reformers during the and we could go further back.
2:42
The biblical answer is probably coming hopefully in this study,
2:45
but the reformers came at it and said we don't believe
2:48
transubstantiation. We refer to it rather as
2:51
consubstantiation. I don't know what the trans and
2:53
con exactly mean, they probably Greek or Latin, but they
2:57
believed rather than the physical body and blood of Jesus
3:01
being present in the communion, it was more the spiritual body
3:05
and blood of Jesus. So that when you eat the
3:08
physical bread, it's not actually his body, but while
3:11
you're eating it, you're taking in spiritually the body of
3:14
Jesus. While you drink, you're taking
3:16
in spiritually the blood of Jesus.
3:19
And that still the communion service was somehow getting you
3:23
closer, giving you access, keeping you safe in some way.
3:27
And then I believe the Mennonites and many others broke
3:30
away from that and basically said it's not either of those.
3:34
It's not transubstantiation or consubstantiation.
3:37
And just like baptism, the water does not save.
3:40
You get saved, then you get baptized.
3:43
Once you're a saved person, you remember the Lord's death till
3:47
he comes, you continue to remember it.
3:49
And, and as we read through some of these passages, like in John
3:52
chapter 5, I believe in six, when Jesus talks about eating
3:56
his body and drinking his blood, he said he, he equates that to
4:00
believing in him. And so I believe by believing
4:03
the gospel, by trusting in Christ, you have all that you
4:07
need. And then the the bread and the
4:09
wine is literally just for your memory's sake.
4:12
It's a constant reminder to you that, hey, I'm desperately
4:16
needed a savior and Christ's body was broken for me.
4:19
My sins had left a stain on me and Christ, his blood shed for
4:25
me, washed it away. And then secondarily
4:28
individually, I looked to God in communion and thank God for his
4:31
broken body has shed blood. But then corporately the the
4:35
breaking of the body of Jesus and the crucifixion of Jesus and
4:39
then us being baptized into Him spiritually makes us all one.
4:44
So Communion in common union is us together corporately.
4:49
When we gather together, we we take bread, we break it, we take
4:54
wine, we drink it all in memory of the fact that we corporately
4:58
were lost and we all had no hope.
5:01
And I can look across the room and see that brother there, he's
5:04
also coming to God by faith. That sister over there is coming
5:07
to God by faith. So we corporately remind
5:10
ourselves and remind each other that we're right with God
5:13
through the broken body and shed blood of Jesus and that we can
5:16
have relationships with one another because again, the
5:19
broken body is shed blood of Jesus, but there's nothing
5:22
spiritually happening. You're not becoming more holy or
5:25
staying holy. You're not somehow becoming more
5:29
Christ like by eating the body and drinking the the wine,
5:33
eating the bread and drinking the wine.
5:35
I think it's rather just a spiritual reminder.
5:39
It's a symbol, I believe, of what has happened and we're
5:43
reminded by it. Yeah, that's very good.
5:47
Aaron, anything to add to that in regards to kind of overview?
5:51
Yeah, I know That was, that was. But I hate, I said this last
5:54
week, I hate to dilute that in any way.
5:56
I don't. You guys agree?
5:59
With that, the only thing I would say that's not a, it's not
6:03
anything necessarily related to what Dan said, but I would, I
6:06
would also say this, like we said about baptism, I don't
6:11
think it's something that people should just say, let's forget
6:16
it. It doesn't matter.
6:17
You know what I mean? Like I think it's in that same
6:19
boat that it's obviously a thing that he passes on.
6:23
I mean, obviously the First Corinthians 11, he's saying I
6:26
delivered unto you, which I also received.
6:28
So it's not something to be brushed aside as though it's
6:32
meaningless or we don't care if you do it or not like that.
6:35
That would be the only thing I would add to that.
6:37
And I don't think like that's not a disagreement with Dan.
6:40
I'm just saying that would be the that would be the thing that
6:42
I think it would relate to baptism as is.
6:44
We don't want to just brush it off and pretend it's not
6:47
relevant or talked about or a Bible thing.
6:52
Yeah, 100% and and again, it's like he says, as often as you do
6:57
this, do this in remembrance of me like so did the goal looks
7:02
clear. You know, this is this is
7:04
something kind of like baptism to remember what it is that we
7:07
were baptized into and what that actually represent what it looks
7:10
like in the in the spirit, you know.
7:12
So Melvin, anything else on? Yeah, The only thing that causes
7:17
my mind is I kind of what I see going around the churches as a
7:22
whole and bodies around the that I am in contact with.
7:27
It seems like a lot of them will go two ways, so to speak.
7:32
They're either doing comedian every week and like doing it all
7:36
the time. And then it almost becomes like
7:40
something that you just do go through the motions doing or can
7:45
become that it seems like. And then I see the other side
7:51
where there's some people that say, you know, it really doesn't
7:55
matter. We don't have to keep, you know,
8:00
remembrance or do communion and remembering, you know, it's just
8:04
not a big deal. So I guess when I read the
8:08
scripture, what I want to point out that scripture, you said it
8:12
Lien as well as where he says he says and do this in remembrance
8:20
of me. He, he tells his disciples to,
8:23
you know, to as he, he says as often as you do it, do this in
8:29
remembrance of me. That's in Luke where he says
8:32
that Luke, Luke 22. And so to me, he's saying, you
8:36
know, he doesn't say how often we should do it necessarily.
8:41
He's just saying as often as you do this, make sure that you're
8:44
doing it and remembered for me. So that really stands out to me.
8:47
So it, it's like it's not a thing that we should take
8:51
lightly necessarily when we do it is in my mind, you know, But
8:56
then again, it's not something that we do like you were saying,
8:59
Dan, to be more spiritual or to be more holy because it's Christ
9:03
who makes us holy, not doing community.
9:09
Yeah, that's that's really good. And and I so I'm good.
9:14
I'm just going to pose some questions here that that we were
9:18
kind of talked about a little bit.
9:21
One of them is so in probably almost all mainline Christian
9:31
churches denominations, you will see that communion is somehow
9:37
tied to church membership. I don't know of any that or, or
9:42
very few probably that are not somehow tied into that.
9:47
Tell me, Dan, your experience with that or what do you think
9:50
about that being tied together with Chameleon?
9:54
I, I, I, I personally don't believe that that is at all
10:00
biblical, but I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say
10:05
about it. Yeah, again, there's, there's
10:08
all kinds of little trails that on my mind is going to because
10:12
because of if you think of it as a, an actual physical taking in
10:18
of the body of Jesus or even a spiritual taking into the body
10:21
of Jesus and you recognize that someone who eats it and drinks
10:26
it unworthily and that's very misunderstood.
10:28
Hopefully we'll get to that. People think then, well, I don't
10:32
want that person to eat and drink damnation to himself.
10:36
So I need to make sure that they're in good standing, that
10:38
they're walking with the Lord, that they are worthy of the body
10:42
and blood of Jesus. It doesn't say you ought to be
10:44
worthy. It says you ought to eat it and
10:45
drink it worthily. But if that were the case, then
10:49
I would feel the need to police it and say, hey, look, I don't
10:52
know where you're at. We guard our communion closely.
10:54
We, we're caring for your soul by not allowing to partake
10:58
because we don't know where you're at.
10:59
And that's how most people think of it, because they put so much
11:02
emphasis on the physical act of doing it, but they think it
11:06
actually adds something to them spiritually and that if you
11:10
suddenly let somebody in who isn't quite worthy of God, then
11:14
you might taint the whole of Lord's Supper, right?
11:17
And so a lot of that has to be clarified to understand what
11:20
we're talking about. If we go back to the whole a
11:25
frequency of it, I grew up Old Colony Mennonite.
11:28
We took it twice a year and it was this huge ordeal.
11:31
The church packed up with people who never come to church all
11:33
year long. They'd come for the Sunday
11:35
before to prepare for it. We call it Fubareathunk.
11:39
And then they would come for the Sunday of because they got it or
11:42
else they might not be in God's good graces anymore.
11:44
And then we, the church that I was a part of for many years, we
11:47
did it every other month, I believe it was.
11:50
And now we've been attending a church for a couple years that
11:52
does it every Sunday. I thought too that I would maybe
11:55
kind of feel like, OK, it's just becoming monotony, but it's
11:58
become a really neat, almost like a ritual reminding
12:01
ourselves again and again and again, hey, it's the blood of
12:04
Jesus. Hey, it's the broken body again
12:06
and again, right? So to me, the idea to answer
12:09
your question, we don't add people to the Lord's body.
12:14
And if somebody makes a claim to faith in Christ, it's not up to
12:18
me to try to check to see where they're at.
12:20
Because if you understand the worthy and worthily part
12:23
correctly, you realize you don't.
12:25
It's not up to you to try to check if somebody's worthy.
12:29
That's neat how you tied that back to that one kind of
12:32
pinnacle that where that hinges, although that word worthy and
12:35
worthily. And yeah, we'll get there.
12:37
I got a few other questions kind of along this line, but Aaron,
12:40
anything else of that regarding like church membership and
12:43
community would be almost synonymous in a lot of ways.
12:46
Yeah, I can. I can kind of speak from my own
12:49
experience that which was different than your alls.
12:52
The churches that I grew up in didn't there was no book like
12:59
they didn't keep records of who was members or not.
13:02
It wasn't it wasn't that way like they they would have
13:06
thought that you needed to be in that Church of Christ.
13:09
You know like that they was thought you need to go to that
13:11
name, but there was no record book.
13:14
There was not you never heard membership talked about like it
13:17
was just you was either a baptized believer you is not in
13:21
their eyes. And that was the only thing that
13:24
that decided whether you would take communion or not is whether
13:29
you in you know, like I said, theirs would have been just
13:33
mostly hinged on baptism. But as Dan said, it would have
13:36
been hinged on you being a believer or not, right.
13:39
That was the way that I kind of grew up.
13:40
So I haven't had the the experience that you all have in
13:45
that it was kind of policed or whatever.
13:47
We didn't it just wasn't done that way.
13:49
Like it was a police nobody, nobody would not pass the plate
13:53
to this person or tell them they shouldn't be taking of it or
13:55
something like that. But.
13:57
How about if you had a visitor, just some random person came in,
14:01
could they take? Yeah, they would have offered it
14:03
like they would have just they not knowing what they would,
14:06
they would have just passed the plate by them, you know, and
14:08
they it would have, it would have been left up to the person
14:11
like they would have kind of let you made your own call on that.
14:14
But so yeah, that that's how we practice it now for the post
14:18
part. And but yeah, they'll.
14:22
Yeah, I mean, so we, I obviously grew up where, you know, in the
14:27
Mennonite setting where you got baptized, you didn't take
14:31
comedian until you were baptized and you got baptized in front of
14:34
the whole church, right. So everybody seeing you get
14:38
baptized and then you were allowed to partake in comedian.
14:43
But the biggest thing that I see with the, as, you know, not
14:47
allowing someone to take communion because they're not
14:51
obeying the rules, it's it's like they have, that's the only
14:56
way that they, those settings with rules have to control that
15:01
or to police that, right? I mean, what else are you going
15:04
to do? And it's not, it's not biblical
15:07
because if, if the, if that were the case, right then Jesus in
15:13
Luke 22, he says this, he says this cop, and this is when he
15:19
was with his disciples before he was going to go to the cross.
15:23
He says, This cop is the New Testament in my blood, which is
15:28
shed for you. And behold, the hand of him that
15:32
betrayeth me is with me on the table.
15:35
And truly the Son of Man goeth as it is determined, but woe
15:40
unto that man by whom he is betrayed.
15:44
And they began to inquire among themselves who which of them it
15:48
was that should do this say this thing.
15:52
And so we know that that man was Judas that portrayed Jesus
15:58
there, you know, to that he would go to the cross and be
16:02
crucified. But it gives when I read that, I
16:06
see that as a picture, you know, Jesus didn't withhold him from
16:10
partaking in that, right? And he, Jesus knew that that
16:14
what was going to happen. And so that's the picture I see.
16:20
And it's just not. It's just not biblical like you
16:23
guys pointed out. It's not biblical to be allowed
16:27
to tell another person that they can or cannot partake
16:32
inconvenience. Can I, I, I told you my
16:40
experience, but yet as we were talking about it, I, I'm not
16:46
saying that I think that this is only related to communion.
16:49
I think in fact it's more of a fellowship like over each
16:54
other's house. But this has to mean something
16:56
in First Corinthians 5 when he says, 5 First Corinthians 59 I
17:00
wrote unto you an epistle not to company with fornicators, yet
17:04
not all together with the fornicators of this world, or
17:06
with the covetous or extortioners, or with idolaters.
17:10
For then must she needs go out of the world.
17:12
But now I have written unto you not to keep company.
17:15
If any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or
17:19
covetous, or idolater, or railler, or drunkard, or
17:22
extortioner, with such a one know not to eat.
17:26
For what have I to do to judge? What have I to do to judge them
17:32
that are without? Do you not judge them that are
17:34
within, but them that are without?
17:36
God judges therefore put away from among yourselves that
17:40
wicked person out. I'm just I mean, I'm just trying
17:44
to look at all sides of this and there has to be a place for
17:48
that. Like obviously it fit.
17:49
I don't know if it fits in our exact conversation, but fits
17:52
somewhere, right? I mean it like they're, it's
17:55
like, it's like, obviously there is a call when and I'll see what
18:02
you all think about this. But I would put this more in the
18:05
boat of someone that seemed to be one way and now has went down
18:11
a different road and the the purpose would be to call him
18:15
back to repentance, right? I mean, that's the story that
18:17
he's talking about here. This seemed to be a Christian.
18:20
All of a sudden he takes up his father's life and now we got to
18:24
do something to make him repent. So I'm not trying to make the
18:29
word eat always mean communion. I wasn't trying to do that, but
18:32
I'm just saying that that is, you know, that would be part of
18:37
it, right? I mean, I think we'll get to
18:38
that later on. But I feel like I saw more
18:42
clearly tonight that there is a it seemed to me like that there
18:48
was a eating of a meal and then a communion afterward.
18:53
Now I don't want to jump ahead, but it seemed like that that was
18:56
kind of the way that when Christ instituted anyway, they ate the
18:59
Passover and after that they ate, you know, he, he holds up
19:04
the bread and the wine and does something different.
19:07
So I don't know. I just, I just didn't want to
19:09
throw that out there. See what you all thought about.
19:12
No, that's, that's really good. And I think that is relevant to
19:14
the discussion actually, maybe not directly related to
19:18
communion, but in a sense. And that's that's a good segue
19:22
into the next question. Should somebody confess their
19:25
sins before taking commute here again, in in a lot of in a lot
19:29
of situations, you will see that that is expected.
19:33
It wasn't ours for sure. I I I know, I mean, that was one
19:37
of the main goals of comedian, I think for the Bishop was to get
19:42
some reformation going on is in the members kind of that was
19:45
kind of the goal. I don't know that it really.
19:48
Yeah, it seemed that way to to the young me, you know, and so
19:53
is is it should this be linked to some sort of expectation of
19:58
sinlessness? You know, because I I sometimes
20:03
wondered and we've talked about it being my wife is what we talk
20:07
about an open community like who actually is, who is biblically
20:12
allowed or to to take in community.
20:16
You know, it's a remembrance of Jesus and what he did on the
20:20
cross, his death. Death and burial, right?
20:24
I mean that that's what it that is what it is.
20:26
And who in the world would we not want to remember that, You
20:30
know? So I guess Dan, on, on, on that
20:35
like is there, should we expect some kind of a repentance?
20:40
Yeah. Before or self evaluation?
20:46
I'm going to open up every time I speak with this idea of I
20:49
could go different, different ways here.
20:52
But yeah, Aaron brought up some really good points there.
20:54
We we shouldn't wait till communion to see if somebody can
20:58
sit down and eat communion with us.
21:00
If somebody is an adulterer or fornicator, an idolater, we're
21:05
not supposed to keep company with them.
21:07
If they call themselves a Christian, if they label
21:09
themselves a Christian and they're looking at pornography,
21:11
they label themselves a Christian and they're yelling at
21:14
their wife or their whatever. I need a list of those sins.
21:17
Getting drunk regularly. We're not to eat with them.
21:20
You don't wait to communion and then say, OK, now we're going to
21:23
make an example of you and all that.
21:25
But if if somebody is committing those kinds of atrocious sins
21:28
that First Corinthians 5 talks about where to put them out of
21:31
the church, it's not about whether or not they can have
21:34
communion with us. Yeah, I agree.
21:36
But in in second Peter and in Dude, they both refer to this
21:41
idea of spots and blemishes in your feasts.
21:44
They they, they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear
21:48
clouds, they are without water, carried about of winds, trees
21:52
without fruit, you know that kind of thing.
21:54
And and it sounds like these are like diabolical men who are
21:57
claiming to be Christians and are fakes.
21:59
But what the Mennonite confessionalism and Protestant
22:03
confessionalism has produced is someone, any one of us who is
22:08
clearly has their hope in Christ.
22:10
And they now go a week before and try to become worthy of the
22:14
gospel or worthy of the body of of Jesus and worthy of the blood
22:18
of Jesus. And then they they think that by
22:20
the time they present themselves on Communion Day that they're
22:24
now clean. You know, they stand before God.
22:27
Here I am, Lord, there's nothing wrong.
22:29
I'm like, dude, you haven't examined yourself anywhere near
22:32
enough. You know, like you're, if you
22:35
think you're going to get clean to come and partake, we could
22:39
analyze every one of your motives, every one of your
22:41
thoughts. We could break apart everything
22:43
you've ever done and say disqualified, disqualified,
22:46
disqualified. What we're doing at communion is
22:49
recognizing, Hey, I've got a ways to go.
22:52
I'm trusting in the blood, the body and blood of Jesus more
22:54
than ever. Like I, I remember one time
22:56
years ago, because we had this mindset that we were at a
22:59
charity style church and there was guys that would come up and
23:02
say, brothers, I failed this week.
23:04
I got too frustrated with my wife and I don't think I can
23:07
take communion this week. I'm going to sit this one out.
23:10
And I, I was starting to understand this concept of
23:14
eating and drinking unworthily and recognizing I'm always
23:17
unworthy. And I, I one day felt very
23:19
convicted. I had become a Christian.
23:21
I had lost 60 lbs because I stopped overeating.
23:25
And then I slowly gained some weight back and I'd stepped on a
23:28
scale just before communion and I was 30 lbs heavier again.
23:31
And I'm like, oh man, I, I've been letting myself go.
23:35
I, I'm not gauging myself. I'm not monitoring, I'm not
23:39
checking to see when I'm full. I'm overeating.
23:41
I'm sitting. And so I got up before the
23:43
congregation and I said, brothers, I just want to let you
23:45
guys know this and this and this, this is what happened.
23:47
And I, I actually genuinely felt ugly.
23:50
I'm like, what am I doing? I should have control of myself,
23:52
right? And I said, I'm, I'm telling you
23:55
guys this, I have this problem and I'm repenting of it.
23:58
And I am in need of the broken blah body in the shed blood of
24:02
Jesus as much today or more today than I ever have been.
24:05
And so I'm going to take communion remembering that he
24:08
was crucified for me, that I'm not made right by taking
24:13
communion. I'm not made right by stopping
24:15
overeating. And I'm also not put out of
24:17
God's favor by overeating. I'm but I do recognize that had
24:23
it not been for the broken body in the shed blood, I'd be lost.
24:27
I would have been locked then and again I'd be lost now.
24:30
And I'm thankful. So I think it's a remembrance of
24:33
thankfulness. It's like grateful for who went
24:36
before and took our sins and we're punished for them.
24:39
I don't know if I answered your question, but.
24:41
No 100% you did. Should someone confess their
24:45
sins before they take a comedian?
24:46
I like that there's no harm in doing it.
24:50
Well, sure, but I agree with you very much that it you should
24:53
definitely should wait till the day before communion to to
24:55
address something that's going on that's ungodly.
24:58
You know, Aaron, your thoughts on that?
25:00
Well, I, and I think Dan said this, but I think that that's
25:03
the point that people are missing is when they hear that,
25:08
when they hear confessing their sins, it's like Dan said,
25:11
they're thinking I am cleaning myself up so that I'm worthy to
25:15
take of it. It's actually a remembrance of
25:18
your need of it is what I would say, right?
25:20
I mean, it's not a it's not a I'm getting in the shape or I'm
25:24
now good enough to take. It's, it's a remembering that I
25:26
needed this body and this blood to be broken and shed for me.
25:30
It's kind of like this may not be a great verse, but I thought
25:33
of it as he was talking 2nd Corinthians 13 and verse 5.
25:38
He says it this way. Examine yourselves, whether you
25:42
be in the faith, right, Lord? I can look at myself and
25:47
determine whether I am believing God.
25:49
That doesn't mean I'm looking at myself.
25:51
And I have cleaned myself up to this perfect state in which I'm
25:55
now worthy. I'm just examining whether I
25:57
believe God or not, not if I'm perfect.
26:00
I'm just determining whether I'm in the faith.
26:02
I think that'd be good. I think if you examined yourself
26:06
and considered whether you're in the faith or not before you take
26:09
community, that's a good idea. Even though it's not in 1st
26:12
Corinthians 11. I think that that would be a,
26:15
you know, examine yourself in that way, because that's what he
26:18
does say in first Corinthians 11/28 is but let every man
26:22
examine himself. And so let him eat of that cup
26:25
and drink of that or eat that bread and drink of that cup,
26:28
right? Examine yourself.
26:29
Not I don't think it's a like a like you said now now I guess I
26:36
started to say I don't think it's one of these I'm going to
26:39
set this one out deals. Now granted, I would accept
26:43
somebody saying that if they had brought like open shame on their
26:48
self or on, you know, like if they had, I don't I don't know
26:52
how I started to say something. Maybe I shouldn't say, but it's
26:54
like I would almost accept that thought if they had done this
27:00
public thing and it's like they felt like they needed to bring
27:04
bring out something public. I don't know, I don't know what
27:07
I think about that. I probably shouldn't throw stuff
27:08
off the cuff like that, but I don't know.
27:11
But like I said, I'll forget that, but I'll stick with what I
27:14
said. I I have no problem with
27:16
somebody examine their self whether they're in the faith and
27:21
and I would say. This.
27:23
There's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with using
27:29
this opportunity. You know, like we're coming
27:33
together, we're going to take communion.
27:34
I hope I'll I'll say it for my own particular way that I do it
27:40
is I always before we take communion where I preach, we
27:44
always have some specific lesson word on directing our minds
27:50
towards Christ like something specific that he did.
27:54
I have no problem with somebody really refocusing re falling in
28:00
love, if you will, or re appreciating what Christ has
28:04
done for them. And so, so like I said, that
28:07
would be my, I know that's not really in the in the question of
28:11
confession or sins, but I think it's appropriate and I would
28:17
even say necessary to direct people's minds towards Christ
28:21
when you take this community, because he says as often as you
28:24
do it, do it and remember it's me.
28:25
In other words, I don't like this is what I did grow up
28:28
seeing. They did it every Sunday, but it
28:30
was sometimes totally off the cuff, like there was nothing
28:34
mentioned to Christ, no remembrance.
28:36
It's just the next thing in the, you know, it's like the next box
28:40
to check. And I have a problem with that.
28:42
Like I have no problem do it every Sunday.
28:44
I just have a problem with. We're not directing or trying to
28:48
indicate who this is about or what this about.
28:52
We're just doing it because it's the next thing in line to do.
28:55
Yeah. I think that's a good point,
28:58
Aaron. I appreciate that because I
28:59
think often as you consider or behold, maybe like Christ or one
29:07
of his principles or something, you're often maybe convicted of
29:11
something that you didn't really consider prior to.
29:14
That's happened to me where you, you're studying an element or
29:18
you're, you're studying something for to preach on it or
29:20
whatever. And you're just convicted of, of
29:22
something that you just freshly saw, you know.
29:25
So in that sense, definitely, you know, if you that consider
29:30
this this communion ordinance or whatever you call it and it and
29:35
it convicts you to righteousness, then and by all
29:37
means use it as as that, you know.
29:40
But yeah, Melvin, on on that on, you know, confessing your sins
29:45
before you're. Good enough?
29:48
Well, the Bible doesn't say that, right?
29:51
The Bible doesn't put confessing your sins and communion
29:56
together. And where the people get this is
29:58
is in First Corinthians 11 where it talks about taking it
30:01
unworthily. And you would you guys?
30:03
Already touched some on that, but I just want to point out one
30:06
thing. If you read first Corinthians 11
30:09
in the context that it is talking about here, what Paul is
30:13
addressing, he is addressing the Corinthian church that they were
30:19
making a party out of the communion.
30:23
Like he says when you come together into one place this is
30:27
not to eat the Lord's Supper for an eating everyone taketh before
30:32
other his own supper and one is hungry and another is drunken.
30:36
What have you not houses to eat in and to drink in or despise
30:41
you, The Church of God and shame them that had not like that's
30:45
what was happening like they were there was people overeating
30:49
like they were turning the communion part, the remembrance
30:53
of Jesus blood and body into this big party where those that
30:58
were higher ups or whatever were taking more and those that were
31:03
poor were going hungry, right. And it was just a mixed up mess.
31:08
And that's what he's saying because then he goes into the
31:10
unworthy, the unworthily thing. And so that's what he's talking
31:15
about because then right after he says that he says, but let a
31:21
man examine himself. And so let him eat of that bread
31:26
and drink of that cup, for he that eateth and drinketh
31:30
unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to himself.
31:35
And here's the key. It's the key part of this
31:38
Scripture. It says not discerning the
31:40
Lord's body. In other words, when you're
31:44
doing this, you're supposed to be doing it in remembrance of
31:47
what Jesus has done. And it should be strengthening
31:49
you in what? In what Christ has done.
31:52
It should be strengthening your faith.
31:54
It's not this big party, right? And so that's where I think the
31:59
mix up comes in about that. Yeah, yeah, that's good.
32:04
And I'm going to just jump right into that, Dan, about that
32:09
eating and drinking damnation. I know we've kind of touched on
32:12
it, but I'd like to have your take on that, on that verse as
32:15
well. And and then air too.
32:22
Yeah, I think Melvin did a good job with that.
32:25
They're just kind of pointing out what the actual issue with
32:29
taking communion unworthily was. They were doing it in an
32:33
unworthy manner. And on one hand, like Melvin
32:37
said, they're not considering not discerning the Lord's body,
32:40
which is the broken body to shed blood of Jesus.
32:43
They're not recognizing what he's done.
32:45
But I think on the other hand, he's pointing out that they're
32:47
not remembering each other. If we are doing communion, we're
32:52
remembering that we together corporately are all dependent
32:56
upon the Lord Jesus for his great work for salvation.
33:00
And we're remembering that fact. And now if I'm taking communion
33:04
and I don't give a RIP about the guy that's not even here yet.
33:07
And I, I just, I got to get my communion in that now you're not
33:10
discerning the Lord's body, you're shaming someone else and
33:13
you're not considering other people and you're despising the
33:17
Church of God. And you're, you know, shaming
33:19
them that have not. And it's, that was the whole
33:23
concept. And I think they're, like we've
33:26
said already, I think the remembrance of communion has
33:30
more effect than what a lot of evangelicals think.
33:33
We kind of think it's just this glib taking of bread and
33:36
drinking of wine. But I also don't think it's
33:39
salvific. Like it doesn't save you,
33:41
doesn't keep you saved, but it is a, a serious, what's the
33:46
word, a reverence before God and before the people that we
33:51
commune with. We should be remembering one
33:54
another and we could get into things then about the size of
33:58
your church and knowing the people.
33:59
First Corinthians 5, like how do you know if the brother is a, a,
34:03
a whoremonger or a heretic? I'm sorry.
34:05
We don't know if you're everybody's eating out and 1000
34:09
people are there, right. So I think he's, he's reminding
34:13
us to consider the Lord's body, his church, and, and continue to
34:20
operate in a way where we're recognizing that all of us come
34:23
to God in the same way. It doesn't matter if you're rich
34:25
or poor. It doesn't matter if you're good
34:27
looking or ugly. It doesn't matter if you're, you
34:30
know, high class or low class, male or female, we all come to
34:34
God the same way. Christ had to be broken for us.
34:37
His blood had to be shed for us, for us, us, us is kind of the
34:41
emphasis here, right? So he says whosoever shall eat
34:44
this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily.
34:48
And it's important to note that he does not say unworthy shall
34:53
be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
34:55
Because you're kind of you're kind of putting aside what
34:59
Christ actually did and making it of no consequence because
35:05
you're ignoring the very people that Christ died for, or you're
35:08
shaming the very people Christ died for, or you're, you're
35:12
doing it without recognition of other Christians.
35:15
And that's kind of where you're, you're bringing that shame to
35:20
the body of Christ. And that's where people will
35:22
probably at times, like he says here, many are weak and sickly
35:26
and many sleep and you're not considering the Lord's body.
35:30
When you're not discerning the Lord's body, you're not caring
35:32
for the other people in the congregation within the church.
35:35
And so, you know, there's probably good reason then to
35:38
know each other well, right. And so I can, this is where
35:42
people start to get into some of these nuance things of, well,
35:45
then should we have a close communion?
35:46
Because I don't know, I don't know who's who is or who isn't.
35:50
But I think Melvin mentioned this before too.
35:52
He says, let a man examine himself, and so let him eat so
35:57
you and I can drink damnation to ourselves.
36:00
If we're partaking of communion without proper reverence,
36:04
without proper care for our brothers and sisters, with this
36:07
carefree attitude, kind of that party atmosphere almost of
36:11
communion, we can eat and drink damnation to ourselves.
36:14
So judge yourselves to see if you're doing this in a worthy
36:18
manner, worthily, and then in with Thanksgiving and joy.
36:22
I don't think we need to go timidly, fearful, wondering, do
36:25
I do it? Am I doing it right?
36:26
If you're gathering with the body of believers, you're
36:29
together corporately taking it. You're together remembering the
36:33
broken body in the shed blood of Jesus, then we should do it with
36:36
Thanksgiving and joy and the deep reverence in awe of what
36:39
He's done. It's not something we need to be
36:40
afraid of. But if you are like Melvin
36:43
described, eating and drinking and getting drunk and who knows
36:47
what all else and having it before the others even show up,
36:50
and you're just doing it in this chaotic manner or an unreverent
36:53
manner, then you probably should examine yourselves and to see if
36:56
you're doing it correctly. And would that be a place where
37:01
a rebuke from a brother, like if there are those that are doing
37:05
that, if like if we're reading this in context then and the
37:08
unworthy part is, you know, eating all the gobbling, all the
37:12
care pudding and doing Kang stands and stuff like that.
37:15
Like is it is it in our place to rebuke somebody like that?
37:20
You know that in that case, then yes, it would be something that
37:24
we should pay attention to a little bit.
37:27
Aaron, any additional thoughts on that idea?
37:31
Yeah, I guess just to kind of follow the rest of the verses
37:35
out. I think it's interesting what he
37:37
actually says on the on the individual basis side of it.
37:42
He goes on to say verse 28, let a man examine himself.
37:47
So let him be that bread drank of that cup, he that Edith and
37:51
dranketh unworthily Edith and dranketh damnation to himself,
37:55
not discerning the Lord's body for this cause.
37:57
Many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep.
38:01
And as Dan said, he already kind of mentioned that God is saying,
38:05
and we'll read the next two verses.
38:08
God is saying that there are people that are sick needlessly.
38:13
In other words, they're only sick or dead because of the way
38:18
that they were doing this. The the in consideration and the
38:21
lack of reverence is what caused him to be sick.
38:25
Like for this 'cause they are sick and and some sleep.
38:29
He says verse 31 for if we would judge ourselves, we should not
38:33
be judged well. Was he mean by judged?
38:36
Well, the next verse is, but when we are judged, we are
38:39
chastened of the Lord. And here's the purpose that we
38:42
should not be condemned with the world.
38:46
So God, I mean, if you put all that together, what he just said
38:50
was they weren't doing it right. They weren't waiting on each
38:53
other and they were not discerning.
38:55
Like they wasn't even thinking about the Lord's body.
38:57
I think they were almost thinking, well, here's the next
39:01
big potluck, you know what I mean?
39:03
Like they were just looking at it and next big meal to to lust
39:07
after or to in, you know, have a partake of.
39:12
And he says when they did that, God brought sickness and early
39:17
death on those people and he called it he like named it as
39:21
they as he was judging those people.
39:24
But the purpose was like his goal was for bringing that
39:28
sickness and stuff in was that they wouldn't be condemned,
39:31
right? He's he's bringing in a
39:32
chastening. So they would examine themselves
39:37
and consider the the lack of worthiness, worthiliness that
39:41
they were taking it in. Like that's the way I read those
39:44
verses. 100% that's exactly consistent with what we were
39:48
learning in the latter part of Hebrews there about the the
39:52
reason why, why why chasing you know, you know, so Melvin any
39:56
additional on that? I I just want to finish that
40:00
because it it goes on there a little bit.
40:01
I'm just going to finish the next couple of dorses and hit
40:05
the very next verse where you stop there and it says where for
40:08
my brethren, when you come together to eat a tarry for one
40:13
another. So a little bit like what Dan
40:15
was just describing, like look out for one another, right to be
40:18
a tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him
40:23
eat at home. That ye come not together onto
40:26
condemnation like that just right there just kind of ties it
40:30
all together. And then he says and the rest
40:32
will I set an order when I come? And so Paul is saying when I
40:37
show up, you know, physically, he's obviously wrote this to
40:39
them in the letter. So that just to me that sums it
40:43
all up. And what you guys were just
40:45
describing, basically, yeah. And Aaron, you got a point
40:50
there. Hang on a second.
40:51
I want to I want to break one point down here real quick.
40:54
Still, still kind of all the same exact thing.
40:56
So another thing that a lot of things that this isn't in our
41:00
notes at all, but for this cause many are weak and sickly among
41:05
you. I have almost always heard that
41:09
preached as spiritual sickness and weakness.
41:12
Is that as spiritual sickness and weakness?
41:14
Aaron, go ahead. You kind of mentioned it already
41:17
what you think, but yeah, I agree with you, but point that
41:21
out. Yeah, I just, well, I think if
41:25
that was true, he wouldn't have said, he wouldn't have called it
41:28
a chastening, right? If you're just spiritually sick,
41:32
if God didn't make you, he's not chastening you into some
41:35
spiritual state, right? He is.
41:37
I think he's chastening with a literal sickness or a literal
41:41
sleep, because it's like, how how am I, how am I even
41:45
spiritually asleep? Like what is that?
41:48
You know what I mean? Like, I don't even know what
41:49
that means. I think it's very literal.
41:51
I do. I mean, I know I'm, I mean this.
41:53
I don't know. I guess I'd hear what you all
41:55
would say, but no, I'm confident that's an actual an actual
42:00
dealing with. I'll tell you what it's like.
42:02
Let me compare it to something. It's like God doing this on his
42:07
own, but it's like what Paul said for them to do to the guy
42:11
that had his father's life. He said you get together and you
42:14
pray, you take your gut, your protection off of him, Let the
42:17
devil come in, make him sick, bring him to the point of death
42:21
so that he repents. And I think it says the same
42:23
thing here, right? I mean, I think it just
42:25
basically says the same thing but.
42:28
Yeah, well, that's a lot of people can be spiritually sick
42:31
and not realize it, right and and not come to that realization
42:36
that they are spiritually sick. So if it is spiritually sick,
42:40
then yeah, yeah, like you pointed out it to me, it says
42:44
there that is a chastening from the Lord.
42:47
So. Yeah, I guess I would just say
42:50
God. It doesn't even to me, it
42:53
doesn't make sense. Like I could, if there is such a
42:56
thing, I could make myself spiritually sick like a not
43:00
drawing now to God or something, but God's not going to like send
43:04
spiritual sickness on you. That doesn't make sense to me.
43:07
I mean. But you know what it you know
43:10
what you feel like if you drink too much of fruit of the of the
43:14
vine and eat too much pudding, right?
43:16
I mean, you're going to feel sick.
43:18
Well. That was actually, that's
43:23
actually why I raised my hand. This is another one of those
43:26
places that I think, and I don't mean to jump ahead on your if
43:30
you had this in the notes, but that's why I think that they
43:35
were, I think they were coming together to eat a meal and and
43:42
they were supposed to at the at the end of it, I think possibly
43:48
do something that was separate from that meal and say how here
43:51
the mod, this bread is going to be the body of Christ.
43:53
This through the vine is going to be the blood of Christ.
43:56
And the reason I say that is because I think he's correct in
43:59
it. I think he's saying what you all
44:01
did was you came together for the meal and there was no
44:04
thought about Christ body blood out of that.
44:07
Just the way I think about it. But let me can can I say this
44:11
right quick and then you are going to the the reason I say
44:13
part of what I said there is because if you look in the
44:17
different accounts, Matthews first, Matthew 26 and verse 21,
44:24
they, they go to the upper room and all these are the same
44:26
account. Christ tells them to go, you'll
44:28
find this upper room. It'll be prepared.
44:31
That's where we'll eat the the Passover meal together.
44:35
Matthew 2621 says, and as they did eat, he said, verily, I said
44:40
to you that one of you shall betray me.
44:42
You know, he tells about how one of you is going to betray me as
44:46
they're eating. So they're eating this Passover
44:48
meal together. Then in verse 26, it says, and
44:51
as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it and break
44:54
it and so on. Go to Luke Mark's account in
44:57
Mark 14. It says in verse 18, Mark 14 and
45:04
verse 18 it says, and as they sat and did eat, Jesus said,
45:10
verily, I send you one of you which eateth with me shall
45:14
betray me like we're eating this Passover meal.
45:17
They were doing that go down to verse 22.
45:19
It says, and as they did eat, Jesus took bread and blessed and
45:23
break it and gave them and said take, eat this my body.
45:26
So again, they're they've already started eating a meal.
45:29
And then somewhere in that he says, now here's this body and
45:32
blood. OK, go to Luke's account and he
45:35
actually says something that none of them, none of the rest
45:37
of them do. Luke 22 and verse.
45:45
Well, I'm going to start in verse 14.
45:48
Luke 22 and verse 14 says, And when the hour was come, he sat
45:52
down and the 12 apostles with him.
45:53
And he said unto them with desire, I have a desire to eat
45:57
this Passover with you before I suffer so right.
46:00
I'm going to eat this meal with you.
46:02
For I say unto you, I will not anymore eat thereof until it be
46:05
fulfilled in the King of God. And he took the cup and gave
46:08
thanks and said, Take this and divide it among yourselves.
46:12
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine
46:14
until the King of God shall be shall come.
46:17
And he took bread and gave thanks and break it and gave
46:20
unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you.
46:25
This do and remember to me. And I almost think he backs up
46:28
like Genesis sometimes do. The book of Genesis will kind of
46:32
tell you the story and then back up and give you detail.
46:35
Listen to the next verse. Likewise, also the cup after
46:41
supper, saying this cup is the New Testament, my blood, which
46:45
is shed for you. It's like he retells it and adds
46:49
in the detail that it was after supper after the the main meal.
46:53
You know, like if you look the word supper up, it basically
46:56
always refers to the main evening meal.
46:59
So I don't know what you all think about that, but that I
47:02
guess I'm more just saying, would you agree that they ate a
47:06
meal and then he almost like, maybe I don't know if they
47:11
stopped the meal, but then after they had already started eating,
47:14
he he did something separate, like here's the meal.
47:19
He he does this thing separate and takes here's this bread,
47:23
this cup, which technically is not the only thing they would
47:26
eat in the Passover out. They had these bitter herbs and
47:29
so on and so forth, right. It's not the only things on the
47:33
menu, if you will, but it is the only two things he mentions.
47:37
And like I said, that Luke 22 just said after supper he did
47:41
this. So I don't.
47:43
I thought that was interesting and I think, let me make the
47:46
circle. I think it's relevant because I
47:48
almost think that that's the Corinthians we're doing.
47:53
They were coming together for a meal, but they had stopped
47:57
making any point that recognized Christ in it.
48:00
They had stopped taking the bread and the wine, separating
48:03
out and and letting it point to Christ.
48:07
But that's just my thought. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm
48:09
just saying it seems like what I thought of it.
48:11
But. Yeah, no, I, I that's, that's
48:15
good stuff. Dad, did you have any, any other
48:19
comments on the, on the weak and sickly or, or what?
48:23
Yeah. I'll try to comment on both the,
48:26
the weak and sickly, the condemnation thing, and on
48:28
Aaron's comment about the meal. I do wait.
48:31
I think it was relevant that you pointed out that communion is
48:35
kind of an extension of the Passover.
48:37
And they ate the Passover in haste.
48:38
They ate it standing up. They ate it with their shoes on.
48:41
They, you know, I could, there was a very deliberate reason for
48:44
it. Now our reasons have shifted.
48:45
We're no longer thinking about the lamb that was slain in Egypt
48:49
and the, the Passover, the the death Angel passing over.
48:53
We're thinking rather about Christ very relevantly, very
48:57
similarly crucified for us and his blood is applied so that we
49:02
don't have God's judgment on us as well.
49:05
And so there is that thing about coming together to enjoy this
49:10
meal. Maybe we should do the whole
49:11
Passover thing. But in First Corinthians here he
49:14
almost seems to say, let's not do that.
49:17
I agree, I only have. Houses to eat in, like don't
49:20
come here hungry thinking that we're going to have this big
49:23
feast. And so he almost says, when you
49:25
do this, it's not to fill your belly.
49:28
It is it is strictly to do a remembrance.
49:31
It's we're doing this because we're remembering something that
49:34
took place and remembering who he did it for.
49:36
And so he said, don't come here hungry, go eat in your houses
49:40
and then come here and then do it.
49:43
But yeah, I if, if they were doing it like the Passover, then
49:47
they would have had the meal. Then afterward, the bread would
49:50
have been broken, the wine would have been poured, and that would
49:52
have been this more deliberate ceremonial type of meal towards
49:57
the end of the meal, I think, right?
50:00
Yeah, that's what I was going to say is I I agree.
50:02
I think he was correcting what they were doing right.
50:05
And I totally agree with you. I think he I think that that I
50:07
think they had that impression and he's like, like you just
50:10
said, no, no, no, no, no. You're kind of missing the point
50:14
here, but. It's well, it's not a feast.
50:16
Like, I mean, if you could look back at, at a lot of the feasts
50:19
that they had, we did a couple for fun as a family.
50:23
There was a book and I don't remember what it was, but, and
50:26
so we went through a, a complete, well, we did it with
50:29
you guys, Melvin a couple of times or, or we did it by
50:31
ourselves too at a time or two. And the feast, the remembrance
50:36
part was tied into the entire meal.
50:40
You know, it started with, with quoting scriptures and
50:44
recognizing Aaron and Moses and all these different rituals and,
50:49
and, and the entire meal lasted what, 2 hours, I suppose, or
50:53
close to it. But the, the entire meal was
50:56
tied into this remembrance thing.
50:57
And, and so when you think about these feasts, like the Passover
51:00
feast would have been like that. And now he said this community,
51:05
this cup is, is separate. I, I agree with you, Aaron.
51:08
I think that's a really key distinction there.
51:11
The in second Peter, Ann and Jude I quoted this before.
51:14
They both seem to refer to a feast and a spots and blemishes
51:19
that the Christians were having because of these sinful people
51:23
that were participating with them.
51:24
And Jude in particular, Jude, 12 spots in your feasts of charity.
51:29
So I, I would personally have no trouble with people doing a more
51:33
ceremonial, very deep remembrance of what he did and
51:37
kind of said this resembles this.
51:40
This is why he was crucified. This is what he accomplished and
51:43
so on and so forth. So that that could be a very
51:45
good process to go through at times. 12 little things I wanted
51:50
to point out is first of all, if communion is salvific, like
51:55
meaning it does keep you in favor with God or gives you
51:59
access to him or gives to you a bit more of him, then we should
52:03
be doing it an awful lot. I mean, I would prefer to do it
52:05
every day if you definitely shouldn't wait every other month
52:11
or every, you know, twice a year or something like that.
52:14
But secondly, he does use this language in First Corinthians 11
52:18
that you eat and drink condemnation to yourselves.
52:22
And most modern Christians are very quick to say Romans 8 says
52:26
there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ.
52:29
But as we, you know, who read the King James Bible reread just
52:32
a little bit further, it says there's no condemnation for them
52:35
that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but at
52:39
spirit. And even in all the modern
52:41
translations, he goes on to say that if you live after the
52:45
flesh, ye shall die, but if he through the Spirit do mortify
52:49
the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
52:51
So I think the same thing is happening here in Corinth, where
52:54
they were sinning against the Lord's body, against one
52:57
another, and against the great sacrifice that Christ had made.
53:01
And therefore condemnation was coming on their body.
53:04
And why? So that they would not be
53:07
condemned with the world. We're still not condemned in
53:10
Christ. We're not condemned to hell.
53:12
Our sins are forgiven, but He's not going to let us sin against
53:16
His body. He's going to come after us.
53:18
He's going to chasten us. The Lord loves everyone whom he
53:20
chastens or how he says he chastens everyone whom he loves.
53:24
And so he he is chastening them physically because some of them
53:28
had a fallen asleep. And and like you said before,
53:30
Leon, it's almost like the argument of sinful nature.
53:34
Like if if you sin against me, I'm going to make you sin
53:38
against me for the rest of your existence.
53:41
What kind of punishment is that? Like, you know, if you ever dare
53:45
disobey me, I'm going to make you disobey me and then I'm
53:47
going to punish you for it. Like it seems very vindictive.
53:50
So the same thing would be happening here.
53:52
You're sitting against me. You're acting like a weak
53:55
Christian. You're not living the way you
53:57
ought to. You're not respecting the Saints
53:58
like you ought to. Therefore, I'm going to make you
54:00
spiritually weak. So that what?
54:02
So you do more of the bad stuff. What's the point of it, right?
54:06
That's clearly not the case. He he physically goes after, and
54:10
you see it in the book of James too.
54:11
If any has sin, they can confess to the elders, they'll pray for
54:15
them, and then they will be forgiven in the sense that their
54:17
sickness will be healed. And so it seems pretty prevalent
54:20
throughout the Scriptures that you sin against God.
54:23
He will come after your body, your flesh, your, you know,
54:27
temporal, temporal body. And it's kindly a problem that
54:30
we we do this all the time. We, we relate a word to always
54:35
mean the same thing because it uses the word damnation.
54:38
We think that must be Hellfire, right?
54:40
You know what I mean? Like people, because the word
54:42
damnation appears, they always equate that with being cast into
54:47
hell instead of just saying condemnation on the body itself.
54:53
Yeah, there's. So there's a difference.
54:57
Oh, that's good. That is some rich stuff right
55:00
there. I'm loving it.
55:02
I did want to touch on we've we've briefly kind of, I don't
55:06
know, we all over the the questions to that.
55:08
But one of the things that that was questions that I had on the
55:11
notes here is should community be open to all or conditional
55:14
and who decides what conditions? That's kind of, and you know, we
55:17
talked about that a little bit, but really, if, if it's like,
55:25
how do you view of that in regards to your children?
55:29
Like how, how, how do you, how do you look at that?
55:35
You, you, is it open to all the kids or is it open to your your
55:40
children that you as the father think is lame?
55:46
Or how do you slice and dice them?
55:49
Anybody. I don't care if dad or Dad or
55:52
Velvet. I mean, I can only speak from
55:55
experience. And like I said that that is
55:57
what I have personally done in my own family is when a child
56:03
professes faith, then I, I, I would say then you need to take
56:09
communion now. And that's, and I've not, I've
56:12
not had any rebels yet. So I've not had to deal with
56:14
whether or not I'm going to tell them they can't.
56:17
But but you know, that's kind of the point in which I have, I've
56:22
said, yeah, it's but but on the same hand, I have people in
56:28
where I preach at that have young kids that do not that far
56:33
as I know, have not professed faith.
56:35
And I'll see them give it to their kids.
56:38
And I don't feel the need to go over there and say you shouldn't
56:40
do that. So that's just personal
56:42
experience, but. Yeah, like, I mean, it's kind of
56:45
hard to like find a verse that that really kind of says, well,
56:48
this is how you ought to do. And that's that's just kind of
56:50
what I was wondering on your opinion as people that read the
56:53
Bible, study the Bible. What do you what do you think of
56:55
that? Well, I'll tell you how I slice
56:57
it and dice it. I this is the way I look at it
57:00
is like we let our chill, but we do it in our setting in our
57:06
group. We kind of leave it up to the
57:10
families like the father to, you know, decide that.
57:14
But for for myself, I let my children take it because this is
57:19
the way I kind of look at it. It says as often as you do this
57:23
to this in remembrance of me. So if we're doing it in
57:27
remembrance of Christ, then to me it should be like our
57:34
children that are doing it are doing it when we are doing it in
57:41
remembrance of Christ and only in remembrance of Christ and
57:44
what he has done for us, then it's OK.
57:47
In my, in my mind, that's the way I slice it, dice it because
57:51
I can't find a verse that says, you know, thou shalt not let
57:55
your children do this unless whatever you know, I can't find
57:58
that. So that's just the way I see it.
58:03
Yeah. Yeah, a couple quick thoughts.
58:06
I've been in both camps. I formerly, we would go up in
58:10
front of the church and have communion.
58:11
We'd walk up front, take the bread, and then it was only
58:14
those that had professed faith in Christ.
58:17
Hopefully they've been baptized. If they hadn't been, if they
58:19
were clearly professing faith, we still let them.
58:21
It wasn't like we were policing it that way.
58:24
But my children that were not saved would just watch us
58:26
participate. Now at the church where we're at
58:30
now, the bread and wine gets passed around and they just say,
58:33
if you are not professing faith in Christ, we prefer that you
58:36
don't partake and just let the elements pass you by.
58:39
Right? And then I think about the
58:41
Passover and how the whole family was, you know, ready to
58:44
go. They're all eating.
58:46
They're all remembering. Not all of them have the same
58:48
recognition of what God is doing or understanding of it, but
58:52
they're all remembering. And so we talked to our children
58:54
about the broken body in the shed blood and why we're doing
58:57
it. And so it becomes this really
58:59
good reminder them as well, even if they're not quite professing
59:03
for yet where they're saying, hey, look, this is I'm doing
59:06
this ritualistically, but it's because of something, something
59:09
happened a long time ago. Some man was crucified and so
59:12
on. But I can also see how if you
59:16
take that, you can, you know, add 1 + 1 and people start
59:19
thinking, well, then why not baptize infants right at work?
59:22
We're baptizing them into the family.
59:24
They're all remembering that the the work of Christ, right, but
59:28
so I can see Aaron's perspective in that it should be an when you
59:32
come individually to faith in Christ, then you partake, then
59:35
you get baptized, then you partake.
59:37
But I also appreciate the whole family setting of hate.
59:40
Together as a family, we're remembering the work of Christ.
59:44
So I don't I again, I wouldn't police that, but it's
59:46
interesting conversation. Yeah, it is.
59:48
I mean, it just, in my mind, it doesn't seem quite like right
59:54
necessarily to to be able to participate in this special, you
59:59
know, because it should be special in it to me, right?
1:00:02
It should be a special. It's not just a ritual that we
1:00:05
do. And it doesn't seem quite right
1:00:08
to to not have your whole family participate in that special.
1:00:14
But that's just there. Again, I respect Aaron, your
1:00:17
view as well. You know, I see.
1:00:18
I get it. Well, that's what I said.
1:00:20
I'm not policing it. I just you know that that I
1:00:23
didn't mean that I was. I just said that's what we
1:00:24
personally do because there is people that will because that
1:00:28
was kind of my thing is I see people in in my particular
1:00:31
church basically feed it to the kid that don't even know to
1:00:34
reach in the thing and get a piece.
1:00:36
And I'm just not going to do that.
1:00:38
Like I just personally, I'm not going to do that.
1:00:41
But I'm thinking of my little 6 year old.
1:00:43
She has not publicly professed faith in Christ, but you ask her
1:00:47
if she believes in Jesus. Of course we're Christian.
1:00:49
She's automatic, she knows. So I'm like, hey, This is why
1:00:53
we're Christians, right? But.
1:00:54
Now we. Are yeah, yeah, that's I I
1:00:56
stand, I stand at that camp too, kind of like what Melvin said.
1:01:01
I I believe that, you know, as long as, as long as you even
1:01:07
even some kids that maybe don't know all the right words, but
1:01:10
they obviously love Jesus. They're in a family that loves
1:01:12
Jesus. Then why not let them, you know,
1:01:15
take of this, this sober thing that we do, you know, but again,
1:01:21
I just, I don't want this to be a good discussion And and the
1:01:24
reason I just for people that that listen to this, I want you
1:01:28
to be free to. To.
1:01:30
Remember, Jesus, you know, and, and if you see it fit that your
1:01:36
kids should or shouldn't or whatever, I, I think we're
1:01:39
totally free to, to do what, what we see.
1:01:43
I do know one thing, you know, in regards to like policing it,
1:01:46
like Aaron mentioned, I don't know that anyone can necessarily
1:01:51
police this thing because that the that would necessitate the
1:01:55
need to be able to see and read people's hearts.
1:01:57
And we don't have that ability. So I think it's something that
1:02:01
each person must kind of decide on his own based on what he can
1:02:06
read is what he should do. Let it be fully persuaded he
1:02:10
that he does not have faith to have already right.
1:02:13
Kind of so anyway. This was it very encouraging and
1:02:19
and informative. I think so anyway, but our hour
1:02:23
is up and gone past five. So anyway, thanks guys.
1:02:26
Appreciate your time that you put into this and God bless you
1:02:30
guys. Have a good week.