Latest / gasp! the pod / the complete tily timeline & lore feat. logan

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the complete tily timeline & lore feat. logan · gasp! the pod

• 0:00
  July 19th the next year she's in San Tropez on Leo's yacht.
• 0:06
  And then? Fuck up?
• 0:07
  Really. Man single drops on Lily's
• 0:10
  birthday. Fuck up that he's crazy.
• 0:24
  I don't know a lot about Tilly, which is like really fun for me.
• 0:29
  So sorry, I'm bringing you on to like.
• 0:32
  No, I love I get nervous with like Tilly content because it's
• 0:35
  different than like Gaylor content, right, And it's so it
• 0:39
  can be tough with people like have the assumed facts about
• 0:43
  Kailer about, you know, whatever.
• 0:45
  And so it feels like non muse analysis is prioritized and I'm
• 0:49
  like but but Tilly but the romance but like sapphic
• 0:52
  romance. It's so interesting to think
• 0:54
  about other muses besides like the main ones.
• 0:58
  Like, I'm very Kailer heavy, but I've never been like, not open
• 1:02
  to it. Like a year ago I think I did a
• 1:05
  deep dive into Zoe Kravitz and I was like, yeah, there's like
• 1:08
  something going on here for sure.
• 1:10
  I just think interesting. Like we're never gonna really
• 1:13
  know for sure so. All of them are theories.
• 1:16
  They're right. Like we don't know anything.
• 1:18
  Not really totally. I just I love non muse analysis
• 1:22
  and and being able to also do Taylor as muse, but I also love
• 1:27
  I I don't think it's like less valuable to do muse analysis
• 1:30
  when you do it appropriate, right?
• 1:32
  Like when you do it respectfully, you're not trying
• 1:34
  to hack into private information to prove your point.
• 1:38
  Like I I tried really, really hard to be like evidence focused
• 1:43
  and like that first. I totally agree.
• 1:46
  And I think like it's hard to explain to people.
• 1:49
  I think like, oh, there's nuance, like it can be
• 1:52
  appropriate in certain times. I think that's not a very good
• 1:55
  answer for some people. Some people want like it's OK
• 1:58
  all the time this time and it's never.
• 2:01
  And like, that's just kind of like, not the way like life goes
• 2:05
  and it's. No.
• 2:06
  It is so different when it is a public person who is releasing
• 2:11
  public art. Right, right.
• 2:13
  The amount of times people are like, oh, so you're outing her.
• 2:15
  Oh, so you're not a good queer ally.
• 2:17
  How do you think this is like good community?
• 2:19
  And I'm like you and I see visibility very differently.
• 2:23
  Like, totally. Taylor is very aware of what
• 2:27
  she's putting out there. I mean, she had this interview
• 2:28
  where she literally says, I don't care if you speculate who
• 2:32
  my music is about as long as you're reading the lyrics.
• 2:35
  And I think if anything, gaylors are reading the lyrics.
• 2:40
  Right, right. I'm really going to put a lot of
• 2:42
  that in the podcast. OK guys, welcome back to GASP
• 2:48
  the pod, the podcast for the girls, the gays and especially
• 2:52
  the gay girls. We have a very special guest
• 2:54
  today and I'm doing 2 guests in a row, which is like, I don't
• 2:58
  think I've ever done that before.
• 3:00
  But we just had we had to have Logan on.
• 3:02
  We're talking about Tilly, which is the theory that Lily
• 3:06
  Donaldson and Taylor Swift have slash have had or maybe are
• 3:12
  currently in a romantic relationship.
• 3:14
  Tilly is not something that I am well versed on, which is why I'm
• 3:19
  bringing in an expert and I think it's kind of fun to talk
• 3:24
  about something that I don't know a lot about.
• 3:25
  I've had a lot of people request a Tilly episode from the
• 3:29
  beginning, so I feel like this is long-awaited for some and
• 3:33
  hopefully a lot of people are learning some new lore.
• 3:37
  What we have written down in this outline, a lot of it I've
• 3:39
  not read, so I'm hoping to gasp myself.
• 3:43
  Logan, thank you so much for joining.
• 3:45
  Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about it.
• 3:48
  I love talking about Tilly and so getting to like introduce you
• 3:51
  and your listeners to it makes me really excited.
• 3:53
  Yay. I'm really excited where we get
• 3:56
  into what we're going to get into, which is like a rough
• 3:59
  timeline. Any Easter eggs, romantic
• 4:03
  relationship clues pointing towards Tilly, and the general
• 4:08
  theory? Some reminders.
• 4:10
  Please subscribe on YouTube and Spotify.
• 4:12
  Even if you only listen on Spotify, please subscribe on
• 4:15
  YouTube. I'm trying to get to 1000 and
• 4:18
  that would mean I can monetize on my ads.
• 4:20
  I think I need like 80 more so that would be awesome.
• 4:24
  And also I have bonus episodes on Patreon and Spotify as well.
• 4:29
  Share the Pol with your friends. Also update for you Logan and my
• 4:33
  listeners. I do have like a cold.
• 4:37
  And the reason why I say it with a question mark is because I
• 4:40
  just came back from Panama for one of my friend's wedding and I
• 4:45
  went snorkeling, which sounds really fun.
• 4:48
  And I was putting on the snorkel and I was like, wait, should I
• 4:50
  be putting on a snorkel that many other people have used
• 4:53
  before? Probably not.
• 4:55
  But I'm like, I need to snorkel. Literally.
• 4:57
  I'm in Panama. I'm in Panama.
• 4:59
  A few hours after I get out of the water I'm like, why does my
• 5:03
  whole throat feel so weird and like like salt water, whatever.
• 5:08
  Apparently there's this thing called snorkel throat.
• 5:11
  Did you? And did you?
• 5:12
  At least see fun wildlife like. I did.
• 5:15
  I did. It was worth it.
• 5:16
  We saw like monkeys. We saw a rainbow fish.
• 5:19
  It was like seriously amazing. But I know glad.
• 5:22
  You had a good time. Thank you.
• 5:23
  You. Know I do have horrible throat.
• 5:26
  My girlfriend thinks I just have a normal cold so we don't even
• 5:29
  know. But if I have to cough, I'm just
• 5:32
  going to meet myself or I might have to run and get a cough
• 5:34
  drop. So just so you know, okay, I
• 5:38
  wanted to ask you Logan, like I think your content is so
• 5:41
  refreshing. Obviously on TikTok, I'm not
• 5:44
  sure if you post anywhere else and you can tell us where to
• 5:46
  find the other content, but I love how like like long your
• 5:50
  videos are and like deep, No seriously, like deep diving it
• 5:55
  is. I think it's so interesting and
• 5:57
  so much of this I had never picked up on before and I think
• 6:00
  it just goes to show like how many interpretations there are
• 6:03
  of Taylor's music. So I wanted to ask, like how you
• 6:06
  got into Gaylord Tilly? Like, yeah, well, thank you so
• 6:10
  much that that actually means a lot.
• 6:12
  I feel like I am very long winded and.
• 6:14
  So I seriously love it. But there's like so much to talk
• 6:17
  about and you have so many different layers and connections
• 6:19
  and how do you tie it all together and make somebody else
• 6:23
  see what you're seeing? Like I said it once, if like I
• 6:26
  wish I could just put people in my brain.
• 6:28
  I actually started as a Taylor Swift fan back in debut.
• 6:31
  We have a long lost video making an R song music video with my
• 6:35
  softball team like is so long ago.
• 6:40
  But then Gaylord. I do definitely describe myself
• 6:44
  as a Gaylord. I think that probably started
• 6:46
  around pandemic, figuring it myself out and then diving back
• 6:49
  into Taylor's music. And then Tilly really started
• 6:53
  around midnights, right? Like, I started asking a lot of
• 6:56
  questions once we started diving into performance Artler and what
• 7:00
  all of the music videos and the visual symbolism that we were
• 7:04
  getting, what all of that could mean.
• 7:06
  And then she dropped Lavender Haze on Lily's birthday and I
• 7:08
  was like, hang on, slow down. Like rewind, we need to dive
• 7:12
  more into this. And then it just kind of like I
• 7:15
  went down the rabbit hole and never came back up.
• 7:17
  Love it. What's so funny is like for the
• 7:19
  guests that I've had on here that our Gaylord guests, I asked
• 7:23
  them this question and like most people say midnights, but
• 7:28
  necessarily when they got into Taylor.
• 7:29
  But when it felt like holy shit the Gaylord is slapping you in
• 7:34
  the face, Midnight's was in my opinion the beginning of like a
• 7:38
  plan that started to. Yes, So I think Midnight's era
• 7:42
  is so fascinating because it's not just resetting Taylor's
• 7:46
  music, but it's the brand, it's the sound, it's the stage,
• 7:51
  right? Because like, I think of
• 7:53
  Midnight's as if she's the performer, director and set
• 7:58
  design for this Midnight's performance art era.
• 8:01
  Like she had to think of that during COVID.
• 8:04
  Plan it out, plan through the re record, set all of it up for
• 8:08
  them to just start with Midnight's.
• 8:10
  And that's just starting the rest of the few years.
• 8:13
  One of my favorite quotes of hers is that Easter eggs is just
• 8:15
  a flex on planning. And like if you think about it
• 8:18
  that way, you have to plan things out.
• 8:21
  And then if you need a certain amount of days in between
• 8:23
  releases, all of it is just like very meticulous planning.
• 8:27
  And that part is just interesting from like a project
• 8:29
  management timeline perspective. No, totally.
• 8:33
  And I don't feel like we're talking about her planning
• 8:36
  enough. You hear from doing this
• 8:38
  interview, I think it was the Apple interview during Life of
• 8:41
  Showgirl, where she was saying, I'm doing all of this for my
• 8:44
  legacy. Like I'm very aware of how
• 8:46
  everything is contributing to my legacy.
• 8:49
  And like, it's not just, oh, I'm going to release an album every
• 8:52
  two years. There's something larger there.
• 8:55
  And I feel like you'd be missing it if you were just thinking
• 8:58
  she's just planning for the sake of, I don't know, right?
• 9:02
  Planning like there's billionaire pop star, right?
• 9:04
  Like there's there's definitely an A portion of it that's trying
• 9:08
  to make the money. But if even pre performance
• 9:12
  Artler she was planning years in advance like there's some reason
• 9:16
  that she's doing this to this extent.
• 9:19
  Totally. So if you wouldn't mind, maybe
• 9:23
  we could do a brief summary of like what Tilly is, the general
• 9:28
  lore, and then you could tell me some more about the timeline
• 9:32
  because I'm hearing there's this 2016 birthday post.
• 9:37
  Is that the first time that we think that they met or did they
• 9:42
  know each other before that? So they could have met as early
• 9:46
  as like 2010, but they definitely met in 2013 and 2014
• 9:52
  with the Victoria's Secret Fashion show.
• 9:53
  And then they start running in the same circles in 2015.
• 9:57
  So around 19 to 89 era. So like if you think about the
• 10:01
  rough timeline of when people talk about Tilly, they talk
• 10:04
  about basically 2016 through 2019 ish, which means that
• 10:09
  there's a pre and a post. So there's stuff in 2015 leading
• 10:14
  up to them starting their relationship in 2016.
• 10:17
  And then we think that there was a break, a break up or a break
• 10:21
  in around 2018-2019. But it's such a private and
• 10:25
  secret relationship that's it's hard to kind of pin down when
• 10:28
  things declined. Is it true that Lily Donaldson
• 10:32
  didn't follow Taylor until 2016? Well, I do know that Taylor
• 10:37
  didn't follow Lily on Instagram until November of 2016, and
• 10:42
  they've obviously at least been friends since the previous July.
• 10:46
  So there was a reason that she waited until November 2016 to
• 10:50
  follow her and. Is it that November that they
• 10:54
  spent things Thanksgiving together?
• 10:56
  So that would be right. Insane that you're inviting
• 10:58
  someone to your Thanksgiving but you haven't followed them yet.
• 11:01
  Right. So I like to call it like LA
• 11:04
  spring, apocalypse summer and then Tilly fall and because then
• 11:08
  they go away to London at the beginning of January 2017.
• 11:13
  And so you think of like that timeline, why is she not
• 11:17
  following her, right? Like Taylor's too intentional
• 11:20
  with things. So I think that there was a
• 11:22
  reason she held off until that specific date to follow her.
• 11:24
  The other thing I just wanted to tell viewers, if you guys are
• 11:28
  totally unaware of what's going on, is that Lily Donaldson is a
• 11:33
  British model, Victoria's Secret model.
• 11:37
  So kind of was in these groups of pictures where Taylor's with
• 11:43
  all of her like, model friends. And it was like her friendship
• 11:46
  era and she was telling people, Oh my God, there's just like
• 11:49
  nothing on my horizon. Like I'm just like focusing on
• 11:51
  my friends. This Victoria's Secret Fashion
• 11:54
  show with all of these women is just heaven.
• 11:58
  I do think there is something missing in terms of the Kaylor
• 12:03
  perspective with all with everything going on with
• 12:05
  England, it just seems so apparent that there was some
• 12:09
  sort of breakup with someone right around the end of the
• 12:13
  lover era, like going into 2020. Like she did not write folklore
• 12:18
  and evermore for fun. Right, and we can talk about
• 12:23
  failed coming out, we can talk about like everything lover was
• 12:26
  supposed to be. We can talk about masters heist,
• 12:28
  but like all of the way that accumulated plus likely a
• 12:32
  sapphic breakup. I mean, that is just wrecking
• 12:36
  for. Sure.
• 12:38
  I never want to encourage like fandom infighting.
• 12:43
  And so I'm always really cautious about talking about
• 12:46
  Kaylor versus Tilly because I definitely think Kaylor
• 12:49
  happened, right? Like we we don't know what that
• 12:52
  level was between what I think was part of the PR for the
• 12:58
  girlhood and BFF and having the girl squad and then likely a
• 13:02
  situation ship as well, right? So I think they were trying to
• 13:04
  balance that. At the same time, Carly was also
• 13:07
  trying to figure out what she needed out of professional and
• 13:10
  personal life. Having this thing with Josh,
• 13:13
  where then Taylor probably felt like the other woman with Matt
• 13:17
  Gala and and a lot of streams and everything.
• 13:20
  So I try to be really careful about Kayla and Tilly, but all
• 13:25
  of the things about a London girl or do the girls back home
• 13:29
  touch you? Like I do made fun of the way
• 13:32
  you talked. Like there are things that don't
• 13:34
  line up for Carly. Just logistically Lily, she's a
• 13:39
  British supermodel, right? Like I actually just did a bio
• 13:43
  of her for her birthday. Whether it's pop culture
• 13:45
  analysis, whether it's Gaylor analysis, like we tend to look
• 13:49
  at the celebrity first and foremost.
• 13:53
  And then whoever their partner is ends up becoming
• 13:56
  one-dimensional. They're just Taylor Swift's
• 13:59
  partner instead of, OK, who is this person as an individual, as
• 14:03
  this whole entity of their own? And like, does that support what
• 14:08
  we think we know about who Taylor's talking about this
• 14:11
  relationship, their morals, their values, their public life
• 14:14
  versus their personal life. And so I think that's harder
• 14:18
  with Lily and Tilly because she is so private of a person
• 14:22
  anyways. Yeah.
• 14:23
  No, I think that's so true. And I think the fact that maybe
• 14:27
  Lily is so much more private and like, we don't see a lot of her
• 14:31
  posting on social media, like maybe as a Gaylord community,
• 14:35
  we're less likely to think of her as amused because we
• 14:37
  genuinely see her less. We see Carly constantly baiting
• 14:42
  Taylor. Is this because they're in a
• 14:45
  relationship and they're making fun of us?
• 14:47
  Is this because Carly is jealous?
• 14:48
  Is this because Carly wants fame?
• 14:50
  I don't know. But like, we're thinking about
• 14:53
  her more because we see her more.
• 14:56
  So I think that there's an element of like forgetting Lily.
• 15:00
  Easier to track something that's visible, right?
• 15:02
  So it's the same thing with like Kaler is most Gaylor's
• 15:06
  introduction, right, because of how visible they were.
• 15:09
  Like they're basically holding hands.
• 15:10
  Kaler was very much in your face and in the same way and like I
• 15:14
  can talk about it, Tilly was too.
• 15:16
  Like, they were actually very active towards each other on
• 15:19
  Instagram at the beginning until they decided to take a step back
• 15:23
  and be more quiet and be more reserved.
• 15:25
  And at that point, sleuths can't find stuff.
• 15:28
  I mean, you can, but it's not going into a Knicks game
• 15:31
  together, right? So it's intentionally private
• 15:35
  and secretive, which is also what her lyrics tell us.
• 15:38
  Like, I don't really know anything.
• 15:40
  So if you could tell us kind of like what we think, what
• 15:45
  happened in the relationship? So 2015, sorry, I'm going to
• 15:48
  start back at like 2015. Yeah, do it.
• 15:50
  And I'm so sorry I'm making you do so much talking.
• 15:53
  No, no, I love it. So, So 2015, you have the L
• 16:01
  Style awards at the very beginning of the year, right?
• 16:03
  And you have when she met Calvin and then later, that's right,
• 16:07
  Taylor's in that like beautiful green dress.
• 16:09
  And then later that night you have Carly's Co hosting of the
• 16:15
  fundraiser. Lily was at both events.
• 16:18
  She was in a dress, beautiful dress as well at the Elstyle
• 16:21
  awards and then changed into a different outfit with just dark
• 16:24
  jeans and a jacket and looks like effortlessly cool.
• 16:27
  And there's pictures where Taylor's just has eyes on Lily,
• 16:31
  like Carly's right there in the middle and you can see that Lily
• 16:33
  and Taylor are having a conversation.
• 16:35
  So they met, like I said, like could have meant 2010 definitely
• 16:39
  2013, 2014 start running in the same circles. 2015 so that's
• 16:43
  February and then March, Calvin starts by July.
• 16:49
  They're close enough friends that Lily comes on stage during
• 16:52
  the 1989 tour in Chicago. I.
• 16:55
  Remember this? So that was Chicago and we
• 16:59
  always go back to Chicago, right, because of how much has
• 17:01
  happened there, because of the Reputation tour and the Pride
• 17:05
  speech that happened before Delicate in Chicago because June
• 17:10
  3rd and June 4th, the first hits different in Era's tour happened
• 17:15
  in Chicago. The lesbian salute, the whoop,
• 17:18
  like all of that. When she screamed into the lover
• 17:20
  mic and no one heard her. That was all Chicago.
• 17:23
  The actual day was July 19th, which has shown up at least five
• 17:30
  other times, including like the Breakable Heaven game board box.
• 17:34
  So. They're friends by July at
• 17:37
  least, and then we get into the fall, which is a deep cut but
• 17:43
  where Lily likely had a fling with Rihanna, which is with Bad
• 17:48
  Girl. Oh my God, if.
• 17:53
  You search them, you'll see a picture where Rihanna is
• 17:56
  basically grinding on Lily on a dance floor.
• 17:59
  Yeah. Like, there's an interview where
• 18:01
  Lily said Rihanna was one of her celebrity crushes.
• 18:04
  And then it looks like a few months later, she made her move
• 18:07
  during the Fashion Week. And that's when you get like a
• 18:09
  little bit of something between Lily and really.
• 18:13
  My God. Which is the same time that
• 18:15
  Calvin and Rihanna record This is What You Came for.
• 18:18
  Oh my God. And if you.
• 18:20
  And if you look at the lightning, the lightning image
• 18:24
  for the single, it's remarkably similar to a picture that Lily
• 18:28
  posted in 2015 of a lightning in front of mountains.
• 18:32
  OK. And then then it's reminding me
• 18:34
  of the lightning of Coachella bomber jacket she's wearing.
• 18:38
  Taylor's wear. Right, right.
• 18:40
  And then the lightning indelicate.
• 18:42
  Right. Oh my God.
• 18:44
  Do you remember when This is What You Came For Single was
• 18:48
  released and sorry for fall for listeners.
• 18:51
  It was April 29th, in case you didn't remember that.
• 18:54
  So you have the end of 2015. If you want to intersperse like
• 19:00
  where in Kaylor timeline are we? You have moments where like
• 19:05
  specifically during the all you have to do was stay speech where
• 19:08
  Taylor's doing a lot of like just say yes or no.
• 19:11
  Like just say if you want to be here or not.
• 19:14
  And it seems like there was some rocky stuff there, right?
• 19:17
  You had some of the rumors going around about Carly was given an
• 19:20
  hour to get her stuff out of the apartment.
• 19:22
  Like it seems like there is some rocks going on in 2015
• 19:26
  regardless. Wait and what you're saying
• 19:29
  makes so much sense with like Lily, Rihanna like and Calvin
• 19:33
  being Taylor's beard. If Taylor is in rocky situation
• 19:38
  with Carly and Lily is having this fling with Rihanna like
• 19:43
  it's all kind of. It's like high school drama
• 19:46
  'cause they're. Yeah.
• 19:47
  They're all related to. Each other.
• 19:49
  I personally feel like there's a lot more open relationships in
• 19:53
  the arts than like people talk about.
• 19:56
  Even the way that like pop culture talks about Hollywood,
• 20:00
  they're spotted ones together. It doesn't mean they're friends,
• 20:03
  It doesn't mean they're in a relationship.
• 20:04
  They could be hooking up like we have no idea what's going on.
• 20:07
  So I think I think you're right. I think there's a lot more
• 20:09
  fluidity. I think there's a lot more
• 20:10
  queerness. I think there's a lot more
• 20:12
  blurred lines than what we interpret to be Hollywood.
• 20:18
  And a lot of open seats. Yes, I mean, OK, not to be this
• 20:23
  person, but like when I was living in Lai mean like I feel
• 20:26
  like I I met every lesbian in LA and you just hear all this
• 20:31
  stuff. You think everyone knows this
• 20:34
  stuff and then you find out no, and it's not that hidden like
• 20:37
  everyone's talking about it, but it might just not make its way
• 20:40
  to like. Mainstream.
• 20:42
  Yeah, right. It's it's a game of telephone
• 20:45
  get underwater, right? Like it's all watered down by
• 20:48
  the time it gets to us. And it might just seem so insane
• 20:52
  that how could that be true? And by so insane, maybe it's
• 20:57
  just that they're gay. Right, because when I try and
• 21:00
  talk about Tilly, people are like, wait, how does this work
• 21:02
  with Kaylor and how does it work with toe with like Zoe and
• 21:06
  Taylor? And I'm like, I know because we
• 21:08
  don't have one master dock. We have we have like Swift
• 21:12
  grown, we have Tilly, we have Taylor and everybody thinks that
• 21:15
  their version is more accurate. But like we said, like all of
• 21:19
  its theories, like. I in like 2022 I made a Gaylord
• 21:22
  master dock and I had this attempt of it really working.
• 21:26
  But the problem was the nights came out and my fingers were
• 21:29
  tired of fucking typing. And I was yeah, we're all trying
• 21:34
  to make it make sense with what we already think is true.
• 21:36
  And I think that that goes for normie Swifties too.
• 21:41
  Specifically after the OPA Light music video when Taylor and the
• 21:45
  extended version is saying girls night out with the rock.
• 21:49
  So many Swifties are like, genuinely, it doesn't make
• 21:51
  sense. And it's like, yeah, it might
• 21:53
  not make sense if you have taken information, but then you've
• 21:59
  believed it now to be true and you forget what you've decided
• 22:02
  to be true versus what is actually true.
• 22:05
  Like, what have we as a collective pop culture Swifties
• 22:10
  decided to be true in Time Lapse versus what have we actually
• 22:15
  just heard in the music? And then we've mounted it up in
• 22:19
  our own brains to make sense. Yes, yeah, we're all.
• 22:23
  Doing the same thing. None of us really know what's
• 22:25
  happening, but let's just admit that they're all theories and
• 22:28
  that there's not like one truth. So we're in 2015.
• 22:34
  Rihanna is hooking up with Tilly, maybe so at the.
• 22:40
  End of 2015, we have all of that and then we get into that LA
• 22:44
  spring. And so this is where you start
• 22:45
  seeing Lily and Taylor in the same places for the first
• 22:49
  basically five months of the year.
• 22:51
  They're both in LA. You have the Vanity Fair Oscar
• 22:55
  party, you have Coachella where Lily's also there, but she's in
• 22:58
  a different tent the same time. We have the Lightning and then
• 23:02
  you get into Snake Gate, right? So you so we have everybody's in
• 23:07
  LA. There's like a lot of stuff
• 23:08
  going on model wise for Lily in LA at the time.
• 23:12
  There's actually a picture from the beginning of 2016 of Lily
• 23:16
  with Mert Atlas because she was working with Mert and Marcus
• 23:19
  before Taylor because she's a supermodel.
• 23:22
  So there's a picture of Mert and Lily at Dog Pound at the
• 23:26
  beginning of spring and then Taylor starts going there.
• 23:29
  Like there's all of these little connections at the beginning
• 23:32
  that feel like cat and mouse to me.
• 23:35
  Totally. So after you have LA Spring, you
• 23:38
  have Kanye releasing famous, you have Taylor saying she didn't
• 23:42
  have anybody at 2016 Grammys, even though she's supposed to be
• 23:46
  with Calvin, right? So like LA Spring is pretty
• 23:49
  messy too. And then you get to May.
• 23:52
  So then you have the met guy when was.
• 23:55
  Drake's birthday was that in fall 2016.
• 23:59
  Yes, yeah. So that one, and I did a whole
• 24:03
  TikTok about it because people talk about the butterfly wings
• 24:07
  on Taylor's back during Drake's birthday and say that's the
• 24:10
  golden tattoo when you can trace when she started recording
• 24:15
  delicate to the same time she was wearing a golden choker
• 24:18
  necklace on the dates that we know she was with Lily.
• 24:22
  The receipts are receded. What I love about the golden
• 24:26
  tattoo is like now there's 2 Easter eggs pointing back to
• 24:30
  women and there's not a single Easter egg that's pointing back
• 24:34
  to a man with a golden tattoo. No, so we have Met Gala where we
• 24:40
  get introduced to Tom. There's snakes still appearing
• 24:43
  in Taylor's comments but like we haven't hit full snake it yet.
• 24:47
  May 18th, 2016 Lily attends Con Film Festival wearing an Aura
• 24:54
  Boris snake necklace from Bulgari and the exact bracelet
• 24:59
  that Taylor will wear during the Look What You Make Me Do music
• 25:02
  video. Not know she wore the exact
• 25:04
  bracelet. OK.
• 25:05
  Exact bracelet Taylor wears and look what you made me do.
• 25:09
  Holy shit, the only reason she's wearing a snake is because like,
• 25:12
  she's close with Taylor and knows that this is happening.
• 25:14
  So my background isn't consulting, right?
• 25:16
  So I'm always going to ask why, like you, that one layer, you
• 25:19
  ask another one. So why is she wearing Bulgari
• 25:21
  jewelry? Is that typically her style?
• 25:23
  Why would she pick the snake? Like would Lily have chosen to
• 25:27
  wear this or was this a partnership?
• 25:29
  And all of that to me is no, because Lily doesn't like when
• 25:33
  you look at her St. style, she's very casual.
• 25:35
  She doesn't wear super flashy glam and then was it just like a
• 25:39
  partnership? Also doesn't make sense because
• 25:42
  she continues to wear Bulgari jewelry, specifically Bulgari
• 25:45
  snake jewelry until a few months before Joe and Taylor go public.
• 25:51
  Oh my God. And then you add in the fact
• 25:53
  that Burton, Richard Burton, would give Elizabeth Taylor
• 25:57
  Bulgari jewelry while they were on the set for Cleopatra.
• 26:01
  And then how much of Burton and Cleopatra references do we get
• 26:06
  during reputation? And then again with Elizabeth
• 26:08
  Taylor. Totally.
• 26:10
  I'm just rethinking about summer 2016.
• 26:13
  Girl was busy. Holy shit.
• 26:15
  There was a lot going on. Your life was ending.
• 26:18
  I mean your career was ending. From the public eye, we see her
• 26:22
  go from Calvin to meeting Tom. And the whirlwind that was.
• 26:27
  The. Truly start Rhode Island and
• 26:30
  then world tour. Boom boom, another bus and then
• 26:34
  all of a sudden she appears with Joe.
• 26:37
  Wait, when was the picture of them in the Nashville apartment?
• 26:42
  That was 127 days after releasing the I Don't want to
• 26:47
  Live Forever music video on Lily's birthday of January 27th.
• 26:51
  I'm so glad I asked. Her first pap with her London
• 26:55
  beard was 127 days. Her Billy's birthday of
• 27:00
  releasing her first music video on Lily's birthday, January
• 27:03
  27th, 1987, which is hysterical to me that Travis's phone number
• 27:10
  is 87. We were in May and we had the
• 27:14
  Bulgari jewelry and then we get to June.
• 27:17
  So that's when we get the Tavin Hiddle Swift switch.
• 27:20
  We have Cornelia St. rental begin and we have Snake Gate
• 27:27
  where Tom and Taylor go to Nashville.
• 27:31
  Right after Snake Gate happens, they fly back to Nashville and
• 27:34
  then suddenly Lily is in Nashville.
• 27:37
  I would go on the Tilly Nation Tumblr if you're interested in
• 27:41
  this part because I can't get into all of it, but basically
• 27:44
  there is almost like a faux photo shoot they made.
• 27:48
  They basically made-up a reason for Lily to me to be in
• 27:51
  Nashville because the photo shoot has almost been wiped from
• 27:54
  the Internet. Yeah, what and when do models
• 27:57
  need to go to Nashville? Then I talked about July 19th,
• 28:01
  where Lily was in on the 1989 stage in Chicago on July 19th,
• 28:07
  July 19th, the next year she's in San Tropez on Leo's yacht.
• 28:13
  And then fuck up. Really drops on Lily's birthday.
• 28:18
  The fuck up That is crazy. We I had no idea she was on
• 28:23
  Leo's yacht in Saint Tropez. Get real.
• 28:26
  That's pretty. Do you think that like Tom at
• 28:31
  this point was like an attempt of a beer that didn't work out
• 28:34
  and then she moved to Joe? Like do you have any theories on
• 28:37
  on that? I do.
• 28:39
  I think they were trying to figure out what they needed.
• 28:42
  I think she was trying to figure out how to move on from Calvin.
• 28:45
  Let's say that Calvin was there because she thought she needed
• 28:48
  something for whatever she was writing, for the karma era, for
• 28:52
  the Carly era, for whatever it is.
• 28:55
  If she thought she needed a cover, she had Calvin beginning
• 28:58
  in 2015. Then whether Carly ended,
• 29:01
  whether there was a new muse, whatever, whether she was just
• 29:04
  done with Calvin and didn't want to deal with him anymore.
• 29:08
  He seemed like he was a liability at this point.
• 29:11
  She found a getaway car and she moved on and she found somebody
• 29:15
  who would have helped her, right.
• 29:17
  If he was pursuing Bond at that time, he was also British.
• 29:21
  It also worked well with the storyline.
• 29:22
  I think they were trying to find something in between.
• 29:25
  And you can see in interviews afterwards that like Tom doesn't
• 29:28
  regret the relationship. And he even said because like,
• 29:31
  hopefully everybody can oh God, he said something like can live
• 29:35
  as themselves. Because I lean towards she
• 29:39
  quickly ramped this up so that she had a British muse.
• 29:43
  And then it was just like too much too fast publicity.
• 29:46
  People were already questioning whether or not they were real.
• 29:49
  And then it was just it was too much, right?
• 29:51
  Like this summer is the apocalypse.
• 29:53
  Like there's we we can see that in 2016, Cato Swift everywhere.
• 29:57
  And then they break up and then all of a sudden you're into
• 30:00
  September and you have the breakup announcement.
• 30:03
  But at the same time she's writing gorgeous and king of my
• 30:06
  heart and we start seeing Lily around and then we get into
• 30:10
  October and when I tell you they're so so like right when we
• 30:13
  start getting into the fall, Tilly, it ramps up so much.
• 30:17
  You have them on Instagram tagging each other, posting
• 30:20
  pictures, commenting. You have Lily in Cornelia St.
• 30:24
  multiple times going out to dinner.
• 30:27
  You I have her there for Halloween where she is dressed
• 30:31
  up as an astronaut at one point. She has multiple outfit changes
• 30:35
  that Halloween. The only news to ever be
• 30:37
  pictured in Cornelia St. Maybe like they brought in Joe
• 30:40
  because it was getting really serious.
• 30:43
  So we don't even hear about Joe until 2017 in the middle of
• 30:47
  2016, in the fall of 2016, you have Cornelia St., you have how
• 30:53
  they're acting on social media. And then you have a huge shift
• 30:56
  after Thanksgiving and they're gone, right?
• 30:59
  So something happened there where they decided, no, this is
• 31:02
  real. This is like something we want
• 31:05
  to actually pursue this and to keep that, we want to keep it to
• 31:08
  ourselves. At least that's how I interpret
• 31:10
  it. So I think that they started
• 31:14
  typical sapphics. They start having feelings and
• 31:17
  then it snowballs. So then when they're actually in
• 31:19
  the same place in New York that fall and they really start
• 31:23
  hanging out and they really start developing those feelings
• 31:25
  in Cornelia St. in an East Side dive bar while Lily's living on
• 31:30
  the east Side, like, Oh yeah, just down the street from the
• 31:34
  bar that they went to the night of the Bowery Hotel.
• 31:37
  So I think that they really, I think that it really, really
• 31:40
  grew fast and furious and they decided that this was something
• 31:43
  sincere. And so she brought her home to
• 31:46
  meet the parents at Thanksgiving.
• 31:48
  They post quite a bit of each other that Thanksgiving.
• 31:51
  And then you get the first reputation Polaroid of how would
• 31:55
  you feel about a song written about you?
• 31:57
  And then December they go to so this OK, so you keep asking
• 32:01
  about the birthday post. So then December 2016 they are
• 32:06
  in Taylor is in London for her birthday.
• 32:09
  Sluice have figured out that Lily was also there that she
• 32:12
  tried to tag a post as New York but she was actually in the same
• 32:16
  rental as Taylor in London where Lily was there at the party that
• 32:21
  they have in London. And then you have the happy
• 32:24
  birthday AT Love You Mucho post. Yes.
• 32:29
  We're for Taylor's birthday in 2016, Lily posts a picture of
• 32:33
  them from that Halloween where she's like, I swear to God, all
• 32:38
  of their pictures together are so sad.
• 32:40
  Like what do you mean you're smelling another woman's hair?
• 32:42
  What do you mean your eyes are closed and you're like so close
• 32:44
  together on with them and Thanksgiving when she has her
• 32:47
  arm wrapped around her knee. And she keeps saying next to
• 32:51
  her, next to her parents, right? Yeah, yeah, She's in between the
• 32:56
  picture at Thanksgiving. Lily's in between Taylor and
• 32:58
  Scott Swift the same way in when she shows up at the Eris Tour
• 33:03
  Reputation weekend. Lily is in between Sabrina
• 33:06
  Carpenter and Scott Swift in VIP.
• 33:09
  People forgot people, for We Lose the Ancient.
• 33:11
  Texts, then they've now decided to go to to go to London.
• 33:16
  At this point, she's writing Reputation songs, yet she has
• 33:23
  not yet ever been spotted with Jeff.
• 33:26
  Correct, the last time Taylor was seen out publicly with
• 33:30
  Dakota Johnson was also the last time she was seen out publicly
• 33:33
  with Lily. And then the night that she's
• 33:38
  out with Dakota, May 29th was 127 days before the showgirl was
• 33:43
  released. Like I try not to do too much of
• 33:45
  the 120 sevens, but it's crazy. Doesn't naturally line up that
• 33:50
  way. You don't announce the Life of
• 33:54
  Showgirl album on Swift day 1027, Days after Midnight was
• 33:59
  released. Like there I can't find this
• 34:02
  many if it wasn't done intentionally.
• 34:04
  Like there's there's confirmation bias and then
• 34:06
  there's whatever the hell I have.
• 34:08
  She is queer or fate or God is queer.
• 34:12
  You can't reach this far like. No, the universe is a Galer.
• 34:19
  So December you have her birthday, you have the AT
• 34:22
  caption which she changes, which Lily will go on to change three
• 34:26
  more times. Once in once in 2020, once in
• 34:29
  2022 and once in 2023. You're not doing that for a
• 34:36
  random friend. Why are you changing a 2016
• 34:39
  happy birthday? Post the caption 3 different
• 34:42
  times over? What is that, nine years?
• 34:45
  That's so crazy. We're not the only ones that
• 34:47
  have picked up on it. Like people are in Middle East
• 34:49
  comments being like girl, what's up?
• 34:51
  Why do you keep changing this? What was the last time she
• 34:54
  changed it to in 2023, do you know?
• 34:56
  A week after being at the air store, she changed it on
• 35:00
  November 17th. And I have a lot of theories
• 35:03
  around the numbers. 117 show 117 was the first yellow brick road.
• 35:11
  Like there's there's just a bunch that you can do with
• 35:13
  11/17. So I don't really know why she
• 35:15
  chose it, but she changed it in January of 2020.
• 35:19
  She changed which was right before the man single was
• 35:22
  released on Lily's birthday and they were likely in a break.
• 35:25
  So don't know why she changed it, but she changed it in 2020.
• 35:29
  Then she changed it on June 9th 2022 which is 2 years before
• 35:35
  it's nice to have a friend in Dorothea.
• 35:37
  I try not to be crass, but playing It's nice to have a
• 35:40
  friend in Dorothea on 6/9 is such.
• 35:45
  I feel like we like don't talk about that enough.
• 35:49
  She's so funny and she slides them by and people don't realize
• 35:54
  it. We're like don't give her enough
• 35:55
  credit for how funny she is. She is a troll.
• 36:00
  Nice to have a friend in Dorothea after we're already
• 36:04
  doing hashtag friend of Dorothea like it is so apparent June was.
• 36:08
  So loud. Oh my God, pride, that was so.
• 36:10
  Crazy. I wish I could go back.
• 36:13
  And also how Pride Month 2023 was her only month without a
• 36:17
  boyfriend. Yes, yes.
• 36:19
  Oh, that was a good month. I thought it would last for
• 36:21
  longer. Back in December there we have
• 36:24
  birthday in London. Then we have I don't want to
• 36:28
  live forever single release here.
• 36:30
  Lily calls out Taylor and is like, Congrats.
• 36:33
  Like again there. You can go into the archives.
• 36:35
  You can go into the Tilly Nation Tumblr post or the Tilly Nation
• 36:38
  master doc on Reddit, which both of them I, I highly recommend
• 36:42
  great resources. And so same with Lily Donaldson
• 36:46
  archives on Instagram. If you're interested in more
• 36:49
  just Lily specifically, Those are all resources I use a lot.
• 36:52
  But then in December you find that they both are back in
• 36:56
  Nashville for Christmas because there's no pictures of her.
• 37:00
  But in an article, Lily is tagged as being there with
• 37:03
  Abigail with Taylor in Nashville.
• 37:05
  Oh my God. So then I always go back to that
• 37:09
  January 3rd lover diary because it's shaped in, it's written in
• 37:14
  the shape of a butterfly. And she says that her and her
• 37:17
  lover have been together for three months and no one has
• 37:19
  found out. Which ties you exactly back to
• 37:22
  October and November and Thanksgiving and the butterfly,
• 37:27
  which we haven't mentioned, but Taylor and Lily would use a
• 37:31
  butterfly to flag to each other on Instagram, commenting it in
• 37:36
  captions. Or at one point, Lily literally
• 37:39
  had a story. Like you know how at the top, I
• 37:42
  don't, I don't use Instagram, but you know how like at the top
• 37:44
  you can have your highlights. There was a highlighted section
• 37:48
  that the title of it was just the blue butterfly emoji.
• 37:51
  And all it was was pictures of she and Taylor.
• 37:54
  Shut. Up and then you have the
• 37:57
  Victoria's Secret ring which was given out in 2016 it can't have
• 38:02
  been Carly's ring because Carly had already ended her contract
• 38:05
  Lily still walked in 2016 then Taylor starts wearing the
• 38:09
  Victoria's Secret ring all throughout that fall so like you
• 38:12
  see her and wearing it to kinky boots.
• 38:14
  You see it Thanksgiving, you see it all the time starting in fall
• 38:17
  of 2016. And then eventually she starts
• 38:21
  wearing it with an evil eyepiece, which is also
• 38:23
  something that really wears is the evil eye jewelry.
• 38:26
  And then you have. Symbol she loves to be like this
• 38:30
  is my relationship symbol like the Daisy.
• 38:33
  That's insane. If he was dating Joe, OK, the
• 38:39
  idea of Joe is that oh, they were friends and she's pining
• 38:43
  after Joe What? And all of a sudden they like
• 38:47
  got together after a little bit. She would have just ended it
• 38:51
  with with Tom Hiddleston. That's insane.
• 38:54
  The timeline does not make sense for it to be Joe.
• 38:56
  No, no, it doesn't make sense for who it would be about
• 38:59
  because it's not about Tom, because you don't just break up
• 39:02
  with somebody and then start writing those kind of lyrics.
• 39:04
  And it's not about Joe because you're not for you're not
• 39:08
  breaking up with somebody And then within three weeks starting
• 39:11
  this brand new thing with this new unknown boy and writing this
• 39:14
  same type of like lyrics that then we can trace on for 10
• 39:18
  years, right? Like it's just.
• 39:21
  No for sure, it doesn't make any sense unless timeline is not
• 39:25
  even the real timeline. It's whatever's needed for the
• 39:28
  public facing brand that with paternity tests, make a
• 39:31
  semblance of sense because like, if you dive too into it, it
• 39:35
  doesn't make sense. But she's banking on people not
• 39:38
  reading the lyrics, not looking at the timeline, not thinking
• 39:40
  too much into it besides, oh, a love song from Taylor Swift, who
• 39:43
  always sings about all of her boyfriends.
• 39:46
  And didn't she say this in the reputation?
• 39:47
  Prologue that like people will do a paternity test.
• 39:51
  They only know what you want them to know or they only see
• 39:53
  what you show them or the version of them yourself that
• 39:56
  you show. Which is remarkably similar to
• 40:00
  something that she said on stage while Lily was in VIP, where she
• 40:04
  said that right before champagne problems, she said that she
• 40:08
  heard that the audience was camping out for seats because
• 40:11
  they I think they had like a first come, first serve in
• 40:12
  Argentina. And she said, and you could have
• 40:15
  just stopped it there. Would have said thank you so
• 40:17
  much for your dedication. Like I really appreciate it.
• 40:19
  She goes on to say, you know, if I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't
• 40:22
  have believed it. While the likely reputation and
• 40:27
  lover muse is in VIP 2190 days after reputation was released
• 40:33
  two days before the 1st karma change.
• 40:36
  Like it's it's too calculated it it it.
• 40:40
  It just works too well, especially when the speeches are
• 40:42
  like literally the same. She got all too well the Betty
• 40:46
  and the champagne problems. I transcribed almost all of the
• 40:49
  Betty speeches and it was so interesting to see how they
• 40:52
  shifted. Have this like recorded?
• 40:54
  I just haven't edit the video yet.
• 40:56
  That's not true, I did post it. I think that another one.
• 40:59
  The last time she mentions August during the Betty speech
• 41:03
  was the first three-way mashup where she included August.
• 41:07
  Like she never mentions August. This is just like a random tip,
• 41:09
  but she never mentions August again during the Betty speech
• 41:11
  after including it in that freeway mash up.
• 41:14
  Like, and then when she took James out, it's just tracking.
• 41:18
  That speech was really, really interesting.
• 41:20
  Wait, like she is way more calculated than I think people
• 41:24
  think. Right practice the pose so that
• 41:27
  it looks real. It's great so it's crazy to try
• 41:30
  and get us back to the timeline. If I'm like trying to group
• 41:33
  things like 2017, I would call like the bliss, right, 'cause
• 41:37
  they're, they're trying to figure out how to go from
• 41:39
  private to public. And so you have a few moments
• 41:42
  where like you have the lover diary entry, there's a
• 41:47
  basketball game that January that Lily attends with a
• 41:51
  specific man, which will be important in a few months.
• 41:54
  And then February we get some more social media moves because
• 41:59
  you can distinctly hear Taylor's voice on a Snapchat that Lily
• 42:03
  had. So it looks so it's on Lily's
• 42:06
  Snapchat and you see the move and it almost feels like Taylor
• 42:09
  is the one holding it when because she moves it directly
• 42:12
  and you hear Taylor's voice, but it's on Lily's Snapchat.
• 42:15
  And that was the same month that people swore up and down that
• 42:17
  they saw Taylor in London just in a wig.
• 42:20
  So we're so we're continuing to get like reinforcement that
• 42:24
  they're both in London, that they're both together in the
• 42:27
  following month. You have the last time that Lily
• 42:30
  wears Bulgari jewelry because then April and May you start
• 42:35
  ramping up into Joe because then in May that's when they say that
• 42:40
  they've been together for a couple of months and then it
• 42:43
  just doesn't a couple of months. 3 February, that's not fall,
• 42:47
  that's not been with your lover for three months in January
• 42:51
  doesn't make. Any sense?
• 42:54
  OK, so we're in May of 2017 and at this point, Oh my God.
• 42:59
  Oh yeah, I miss January. So so January you have the
• 43:05
  butterfly diary entry. You also have the first release
• 43:10
  on Lily's birthday, so she releases the I Don't want to
• 43:13
  Live Forever music video on Lily's birthday, January 27th,
• 43:17
  20170. My God.
• 43:20
  No other known or suspected muse has had this many drop on their
• 43:24
  birthday. Right, right.
• 43:25
  That's such a good point. Because you have I don't want to
• 43:28
  live forever music video, you have the man single the forever
• 43:33
  is the sweetest con chapter EP was January was like 11:00 PM on
• 43:37
  the 26th. So depending on what time zone
• 43:40
  you're in, it released on Lily's birthday and then officially
• 43:44
  then you have 2023 Lavender Haze music video like the story.
• 43:48
  That tells yeah. And 127 is like such a random
• 43:52
  date, like it's not a 13 obviously, like it doesn't have
• 43:57
  a three in it, like you can't. It doesn't add to 13.
• 44:01
  That's a good. Point and like so it's not like
• 44:03
  it would make sense in any of her other numerology
• 44:07
  explanations. Right.
• 44:09
  So then 127 days after releasing I Don't Want to Live Forever
• 44:14
  music video, which is to that at that time one of her most risque
• 44:20
  music videos, right? She's like, this is much more of
• 44:22
  an adult tailor than we have seen.
• 44:24
  She releases that. Then on June 3rd is when we get
• 44:27
  that Nashville pack of She and Joe.
• 44:32
  Just a quick glance ahead, she did the exact same thing in 2023
• 44:37
  when she released I Don't Want to Live.
• 44:38
  Nope, when she released Lavender Haze on Willie's birthday and
• 44:42
  then 127 days later in Chicago she plays I Don't Want to Live
• 44:48
  Forever and brought out Maren Morris to play You All Over Me
• 44:54
  as the 6th surprise guest. That's crazy.
• 44:59
  And then the next June 3rd was the only time that she played
• 45:02
  Glitch. And it would be one thing if she
• 45:07
  wasn't constantly being like numerology.
• 45:10
  Numerology deeds matter like. There's so many times where it
• 45:15
  feels like regardless of what language you speak, Taylor is
• 45:19
  also speaking it. When we start seeing Taylor and
• 45:23
  Joe beginning of them being together, where is Lily?
• 45:28
  Do we know if she's still in London at this point?
• 45:31
  And what'd you say about the her being in a basketball game?
• 45:34
  Yes, so the so that was June 3rd.
• 45:38
  So then you have the very next day, so back-to-back June 3rd,
• 45:42
  June 4th, Lily is packed with the same man that she went to
• 45:46
  the Knicks games with in January in Portofino.
• 45:50
  They do back-to-back beard paps that they had set up in January.
• 45:57
  Oh my God, when was the last time like Lily was packed?
• 46:01
  Oh. Very infrequently.
• 46:03
  I see. Yes, But you want to know the
• 46:06
  other funny one? Yeah.
• 46:07
  The next time she's packed with that same man is in Portofino 2
• 46:12
  weeks before the surprise folklore drop.
• 46:15
  Why in Portofino? In Portofino.
• 46:19
  What? That's crazy.
• 46:23
  That's like just like funny. Like I feel like that's like if
• 46:25
  you pick up on it, that's like almost like giving us a little
• 46:28
  bit. Why would why would Lily
• 46:30
  randomly need to pop up? She hadn't been seen since fall
• 46:34
  of 2019 and then she's randomly in Portofino and then surprised
• 46:38
  folklore's here 2 weeks later? Like what was.
• 46:40
  Do you think that like when folklore came out that her and
• 46:44
  Taylor were already on a break? My personal theory, right, and
• 46:49
  this this is now we're doing less evidence based and more
• 46:52
  theory. I think that they likely went on
• 46:56
  a break early 2019. I early to mid.
• 47:00
  I think Taylor knew about the master sale was in the works.
• 47:05
  And I think that there was already some anxiety around the
• 47:08
  coming out while she was preparing lover.
• 47:10
  And then I think she and Lily were already struggling with
• 47:13
  things, right? Like we see how anxiety ridden
• 47:15
  lover is. And so I think that they were
• 47:18
  already struggling. And then with the combination of
• 47:21
  how all of that went down, Taylor was like, Hey, pause,
• 47:24
  like I, I need to figure my shit out.
• 47:26
  I need to collect myself. And that's also where you see
• 47:28
  the change in lever area. You see all the black, like we,
• 47:31
  we very much changed the aesthetic, but I don't think
• 47:35
  that they were on bad terms because in November we still
• 47:39
  have a handful of Instagram likes from Lily.
• 47:42
  Like there's a few in November, there's a few in December.
• 47:45
  We have the man single in 2020 drop on Lily's birthday.
• 47:49
  Like there's a few threads here that makes it seem like they
• 47:52
  weren't on bad terms. If I was, if I was to throw
• 47:56
  something into the ring, I think that Zoe and Taylor was actually
• 48:01
  towards the end of 2019. That's what I thought too.
• 48:05
  I think that because they talk about when she was in London and
• 48:09
  she was in London at the end of 2019 before they got stuck in LA
• 48:13
  at the beginning of COVID. Yeah, they literally quarantined
• 48:17
  together. Right, so I think that like Zoe
• 48:21
  was kind of there to try and help pick up the pieces.
• 48:23
  And then when you hear not Diana the following year, that to me
• 48:28
  is she couldn't say not Lily. You're the same.
• 48:31
  You hear the same thing of like, I'm sorry, I'm not her.
• 48:33
  You keep talking about her like that, and that just screams
• 48:36
  like, I'm into you, but also I'm still pining, Right, Right,
• 48:42
  right. So then I think that 2020 was a
• 48:44
  lot of like collecting herself, trying to figure things out.
• 48:47
  And then I think they started talking again that summer.
• 48:51
  I don't know how quickly it escalated, but in my mind, based
• 48:55
  on like all of the research I've done and all of the things, I
• 48:58
  think that they were at the very least trying to be in a romantic
• 49:02
  relationship again at the beginning of 2021.
• 49:06
  Yeah, and I think that that would make sense in terms of
• 49:08
  like the music of Midnights, too.
• 49:13
  Like, I know a lot of people say that Midnight sounds like she's
• 49:16
  about to break up with someone. I disagree.
• 49:18
  I feel like if you hear it, it sounds like there's some
• 49:21
  darkness and then there's starting to be some light.
• 49:24
  Like Labyrinth is like, I'm falling in love again.
• 49:29
  Like Bejeweled is like I'm going to be happy again.
• 49:32
  Like I think it sounds like there's a beginning and like
• 49:36
  more hopefulness and planning and like things are less like
• 49:38
  scatterbrained. Like she literally just like
• 49:41
  threw up folklore and evermore. Yeah.
• 49:45
  You know. No, I I agree.
• 49:46
  I think Midnight's is like partial reflection of like tying
• 49:51
  loose ends and partially looking forward.
• 49:54
  And it's funny that you mentioned Labyrinth, because
• 49:56
  that was one of the songs that she played at Lily's show that
• 49:59
  got its special shout out when the airplane flew overhead and
• 50:03
  she said never beating the sorcery allegations.
• 50:07
  Oh my God. That was after the only play of
• 50:10
  the very first night, too. I'm seeing something about
• 50:14
  Lily's career shifts. What happens there in 2018?
• 50:17
  Is she still working for Victoria's Secret?
• 50:20
  So Lily's career trajectory and and where she shifted, when we
• 50:25
  talk about relationships, so much of it is looking at the art
• 50:28
  that we're given and then seeing how much of it also aligns with
• 50:32
  who the potential muse baby. And that is what really cements
• 50:36
  this time period and Tilly being used for reputation and lover to
• 50:39
  me. Because not only does it track
• 50:41
  exactly with what we know about Lily being like a private person
• 50:44
  and Taylor's shift towards private and secret
• 50:47
  relationships, but it also tracks with Lily's shift towards
• 50:52
  humanitarianism and away from modeling.
• 50:55
  So Lily was originally discovered in 2016 while at
• 51:00
  Camden Market, like she was not trying to pursue modeling. 2016.
• 51:05
  When she was 16. Sorry.
• 51:07
  Oh, OK. I was like.
• 51:10
  What? The only reason she said yes to
• 51:12
  the modeling was because she wanted to be able to buy a horse
• 51:15
  Like she she and she navigated that path, right?
• 51:18
  Like she went from model to supermodel.
• 51:21
  She helped close the 2012 Olympic Games and then was in
• 51:25
  the Midas touch photo shoot for that.
• 51:28
  Yeah. Shut the fuck up.
• 51:31
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you kidding me, Logan?
• 51:33
  No might be the biggest Easter egg for me so far.
• 51:39
  The Midas touch photo shoot. Yes.
• 51:42
  Yeah, I haven't even told you about high.
• 51:45
  Infidelity I just love. I'm having so much fun, first of
• 51:49
  all, and I just love that there's always new things to
• 51:52
  learn. Like I'm like a professional
• 51:54
  Gaylor. Like I didn't know any of this.
• 51:56
  And I honestly think part of me was like excited to like one day
• 51:59
  just hear about it and like the purity of what it is to like,
• 52:04
  learn about Gaylor for the first time.
• 52:06
  It's the best. I love hearing from people who
• 52:09
  know things that you don't know, right?
• 52:11
  It's so fun to hear their spin on it.
• 52:14
  And then like, oh, that was interesting.
• 52:15
  Let me research that a little bit more like that's I, I just
• 52:18
  love hearing from women. Just just tell me all the things
• 52:21
  you know. Just just give me an insight
• 52:23
  into your mind. Yeah, I'm just doing this
• 52:25
  selfishly for myself. I'm like just tell me
• 52:27
  everything. OK, in 2017, so Lily goes on her
• 52:33
  first humanitarian trip in 2017, so we start seeing a shift.
• 52:37
  She becomes a global ambassador to Ethiopia.
• 52:40
  And then we start and then in 2018, we start to see her
• 52:44
  professional life really dwindle.
• 52:46
  Like there's a handful of photo shoots.
• 52:48
  I think she walks in one Burberry runway.
• 52:51
  But other than that, we really don't see much of Lily
• 52:54
  professionally and her uncle Mick Fleetwood of Fleetwood
• 52:58
  back. I don't know if you know that
• 53:00
  connection to Stevie Nicks and. Yeah.
• 53:05
  But Mick Fleetwood says that Lily retired from modelling in
• 53:09
  2018, so that tracks. Right.
• 53:12
  So And then what did she do? Like, we only saw her again a
• 53:16
  handful of times in 2018. One of those was at the London
• 53:21
  show for Reputation, where Taylor played So it goes as a
• 53:24
  surprise song. And there's a video where when
• 53:28
  she's singing Gorgeous and she pans out to the crowd, she
• 53:31
  points directly at Lily and like, just like this in VIP.
• 53:36
  And meanwhile, Joe's over here on his phone, like not paying
• 53:39
  any attention. And then she was at the last
• 53:42
  shows in Tokyo for reputation. So again, we know that they're
• 53:47
  at least still fine by November of 2018.
• 53:50
  So we don't really know when when things happened.
• 53:52
  If I was dating Taylor Swift, I'd be like, yeah, I'm retiring
• 53:55
  from everything and I will be there whenever you need, like.
• 53:59
  What's that Diana quote of? I'll just follow her around and
• 54:01
  carry her suitcases. Like yes, sign me.
• 54:04
  Up right. It poses like an interesting
• 54:06
  question right? Because Taylor talks about how
• 54:08
  she wasn't good at relationships during tour.
• 54:11
  So I wonder if because they go from like 2016 secret 2017 to
• 54:16
  like some kind of something, they're figuring it out 2018 to
• 54:20
  tour to Lily's professional drop off to like being a little bit
• 54:25
  louder with Taylor's queerness. Do you think like the Tour may
• 54:30
  have like it? Could have strained them, yeah.
• 54:36
  I'm just like getting so emotional thinking like she
• 54:38
  going into the maybe the heirs to her if they're back together
• 54:41
  being like we're not going to do that this time like.
• 54:44
  Now that I know what's at stake. Right.
• 54:47
  Yeah, I am going to jump off of that Fresh Out the Slammer
• 54:50
  though, because that ties into High Infidelity because the
• 54:54
  debut play of Fresh Out the Slammer was the second time that
• 54:59
  she played High Infidelity on April 29th and then only played
• 55:02
  it one other time with Fresh Off the Slammer one year and 27 days
• 55:06
  later. Oh my God.
• 55:10
  And High Infidelity is one of my favorite rabbit holes with Lily
• 55:15
  and Taylor because of April 29th, 2022.
• 55:20
  So Midnights is released in October 2022.
• 55:24
  We have last seen Lily in the fall of 2021 and then she hasn't
• 55:30
  been seen in like a public setting, not like a fashion
• 55:34
  event or anything in months. And she shows up at Cat's Deli
• 55:39
  on April 29th, 2022 for a pre Met Gala party.
• 55:43
  So she's pictured there on April 29th, 2022.
• 55:46
  Six months later, High high infidelity is released as a part
• 55:51
  of Midnight's. The next year.
• 55:53
  We're into the arrows tour, right?
• 55:54
  So we have March, we have the toe break up where Taylor's
• 55:58
  first sighting after being after the announcement is wearing that
• 56:02
  butterfly cut out Jean. For very first sighting why I
• 56:07
  forgot about that. NYU commencement and Maddie's
• 56:11
  birthday and just like getting a planning.
• 56:15
  So then you get to April 28th, which is the day the Nationals
• 56:20
  albums released, including the Alcott on April 20.
• 56:26
  Right. Did you ever hear about stencils
• 56:29
  being around New York? Yes, I've seen this from your
• 56:33
  TikTok. OK, Yeah, yeah.
• 56:36
  So on April. 28th As a part of their promotion for The Alcott
• 56:40
  and for the Nationals new album, lyrics of The Alcott are
• 56:43
  stenciled around New York City, including Cornelia St., Electric
• 56:47
  Lady Studios, Coney Island and Cats Deli.
• 56:51
  The only one that doesn't make sense, right?
• 56:54
  Coney Island connects to Coney Island.
• 56:56
  We have Electric Lady Studios who have Cornelia St.
• 56:58
  Why Cats Deli? I don't know.
• 57:01
  Was was Lily just photographed there like she she has no
• 57:04
  connection to Cat's Deli? Cat's Deli was the scene of the
• 57:07
  Harry Met Sally orgasm. Cat's Deli is like a well known
• 57:12
  deli in New York. It was one of Lily's favorite
• 57:15
  haunts when she lived there. There's like proof of her saying
• 57:17
  that in an interview and then and then stencils are outside of
• 57:20
  it the next year. Oh my God, I did not realize it
• 57:25
  was like a year. So April 28th, Taylor plays
• 57:28
  Coney Island in the other side of the door, the day the Scent
• 57:31
  will show up, Electrowave Studio, Cornelia St.
• 57:35
  Coney Island Connection, and then Cat's Deli.
• 57:38
  And then April 29th, the next day, is the first time she plays
• 57:41
  a Reputation song, which is gorgeous.
• 57:44
  And then she plays High in Fidelity.
• 57:46
  Oh my God, on April 29th. On April 29th, that's also the
• 57:50
  last day we see the pink Karma jacket.
• 57:55
  Hold on because do you remember in the gorgeous lyric video,
• 57:59
  there's the pink writing? Everything else is in black and
• 58:02
  white except for Gorgeous explodes in pink.
• 58:04
  So we have gorgeous, the first reputation show, high
• 58:07
  infidelity, April 29th. Everything that we just had with
• 58:09
  the stem cells, the pink Karma jacket disappears the next time
• 58:13
  a pink costume is introduced. Is the pink lover bodysuit the
• 58:18
  day Lily is in VIP? Wait, there was a new bodysuit
• 58:22
  the day Lily was in VIP? Yes, the pink one.
• 58:27
  Shut the fuck up. And then the orange one is Paris
• 58:30
  night 1 like. He gets shot every time I say
• 58:33
  shut the fuck up. Do you really want to know?
• 58:38
  April 29th? She was at Kat's Deli and we
• 58:41
  don't have any other really significant time of April 29th.
• 58:45
  Like we haven't really been able to figure out that number.
• 58:49
  Besides, this is what you came. We're single.
• 58:52
  Right which? Goes back to Lily's playing this
• 58:54
  and then. That's insane dude.
• 58:59
  And then this is what you came for with Gold Rush.
• 59:02
  And people are like Gold Rush and Carly and I'm like Lily's a
• 59:05
  model. Lily had Midas touch photo
• 59:08
  shoot. Like have you seen Lily's hair
• 59:11
  like. The Midas touch thing.
• 59:14
  Even though I don't think Carly is necessarily the current
• 59:17
  romantic muse, I don't think there hasn't been reflection on
• 59:20
  that time period. Absolutely.
• 59:23
  I feel like after Midnight's, because Taylor was saying, oh,
• 59:26
  these are songs that I wrote about Midnight's in my life and
• 59:30
  about in the past. I think there's this idea that
• 59:32
  like, OK, now all of her music is now only about the current.
• 59:36
  Yeah, still think that there's reflections.
• 59:39
  I don't know how popular of an opinion it is.
• 59:42
  I really do think Showgirl is a genuine, like it's a, it's a
• 59:46
  personified and a glamorized version and maybe a little
• 59:50
  extravagant. But I do think Showgirl is the
• 59:53
  story behind the scenes. To me, a lot of Showgirl is, you
• 59:57
  know, this performance that I've put on like, I think of it as
• 1:00:02
  like a. Three-way diagram where you have
• 1:00:05
  like the performance art that she's putting on the New
• 1:00:08
  Romantics and then Lily because the songs that people attribute
• 1:00:11
  to Travis, you think about honey, you think about wish
• 1:00:15
  list. Like that to me is talking about
• 1:00:17
  an actual in my mind, the real relationship behind the scenes I
• 1:00:21
  think. So too, and in her interview
• 1:00:24
  about this in the docu series, she's talking about like she
• 1:00:28
  weaves multiple narratives like and I think also on a late night
• 1:00:32
  interview, she said the same thing.
• 1:00:33
  She moves in and out of character.
• 1:00:35
  Like I don't think it's just one piece of character art and all
• 1:00:40
  of this is not her like I think there's some things that are
• 1:00:43
  made for some other things. I think she's writing her real
• 1:00:46
  song knowing this is supposed to be a Teva song, like writing
• 1:00:51
  this for my actual muse, but also this is supposed to be for
• 1:00:55
  this like, and I think both of that can exist at the same time.
• 1:00:59
  And then also I'm writing this character of like Elizabeth
• 1:01:02
  Taylor, but it's also my real feelings.
• 1:01:04
  She swirls it all together and I think she does it geniusly to
• 1:01:09
  make everyone happy but also everyone confused because we're
• 1:01:13
  not getting. No.
• 1:01:16
  And depending on your angle and how much you've deconstructed or
• 1:01:19
  wanted to deconstruct, you see it in a different way.
• 1:01:22
  Like when when all the music videos come out, when
• 1:01:25
  everybody's own analysis is coming out, you're like, how did
• 1:01:29
  you read it that way? And then?
• 1:01:31
  It's like literally exactly like a parallax or 'cause it seems so
• 1:01:35
  obvious but or like what was that meme going around where
• 1:01:40
  it's like a white dress or it's a green dress?
• 1:01:43
  Have you seen that picture like? And I'm having flashbacks to the
• 1:01:47
  purple and gold or the yellow and gold for the.
• 1:01:50
  That's what I'm talking about. Yeah.
• 1:01:51
  So I guess I got the colors messed up, the purple and the
• 1:01:55
  gold. Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  It was like when I was in high school and I was just scared.
• 1:02:00
  I was like, how do you guys see that?
• 1:02:01
  I was scared. That's what being Gaylor is
• 1:02:04
  like. Oh, man.
• 1:02:05
  Can we get into late stage Kaylor for what there is?
• 1:02:10
  Oh, sorry. I thought you were going to
• 1:02:13
  pivot it like no. Late stage Tilly.
• 1:02:17
  Oh my God, I'm fucked up. Yeah.
• 1:02:20
  So for me late stage Tilly, like I said, I think that they really
• 1:02:25
  started rekindling in the beginning of 2021.
• 1:02:29
  I see like a change in demeanor in how some of those songs were
• 1:02:33
  written. Like it starts to see like a
• 1:02:34
  ramp was coming up. And this is at the same time
• 1:02:37
  she's doing the re recordings and I go back to an interview
• 1:02:40
  she did for fearless where she talks about re recording.
• 1:02:46
  That's when, because she says how almost all of the re records
• 1:02:50
  are written with the same lyrics, even the vaults, which
• 1:02:54
  maybe maybe not, but even the vault tracks are like written as
• 1:02:59
  however old she was at that age. I've written them except for
• 1:03:02
  that's when when she changes it to be like if you say you need
• 1:03:05
  space from somebody and that person gives you the space and
• 1:03:08
  the time to take it and to say come back whenever you like.
• 1:03:12
  Literally if you look at this quote, I'm like oh so the Tilly
• 1:03:15
  break, like it's she literally describes you have Taylor
• 1:03:20
  wearing the 2016 Victoria Sing Victoria's Secret ring, which we
• 1:03:24
  haven't seen since 2018, wearing that in the beginning of 2021.
• 1:03:30
  She. Wore it again in 2021.
• 1:03:33
  Then we have Lily attending a wedding that same year wearing
• 1:03:37
  the Look what you made Me do bracelet.
• 1:03:39
  We have Lily attending Cannes Film Festival while it was the
• 1:03:43
  75th anniversary and Truman Show focused.
• 1:03:48
  Oh my God, so you. Start seeing little layers and
• 1:03:52
  bread crumbs basically of Lily intentionally threading herself
• 1:03:57
  back into the narrative. In my wild imagination, we're
• 1:04:02
  getting Miss Americana Part 2. We're getting some type of
• 1:04:05
  retelling, whether that's the like Shelley Wright threefold, a
• 1:04:09
  book, a movie and the, you know, whatever it is like there's too
• 1:04:12
  many things that either they are very much still in touch and in
• 1:04:16
  friendly terms and Lily, Carly, Diana, Zoe are all part of the
• 1:04:22
  larger story and are all being used to like egg and move the
• 1:04:26
  story forward, which I do agree with.
• 1:04:28
  And I do think that they are all being used in a certain way.
• 1:04:32
  But the Tilly stuff that I found is at such monumental points
• 1:04:37
  within the rest of the narrative that Lavender Hayes drop is
• 1:04:40
  insane. You that that doesn't make any
• 1:04:42
  sense And then you trace back the June 3rd.
• 1:04:45
  People always talk about June 3rd glitch.
• 1:04:47
  Well June 3rd, 2016, 2017. The fact that Glitch was only
• 1:04:53
  played on June 3rd and Lily was in VIP 2190 after Love blackout
• 1:04:58
  like it's just. And with glitch and hits,
• 1:05:01
  different or not hits different glitch and high infidelity, they
• 1:05:05
  sound like so similar to me. Like I think there's a part in
• 1:05:10
  the where she's like humming or like at the end of the songs, so
• 1:05:16
  similar. Like I feel like there's a story
• 1:05:19
  of being told with those with like the last two years, I guess
• 1:05:26
  like into Tavis. Have there been any like she?
• 1:05:30
  Had a handful of runway walks. She did like this.
• 1:05:32
  She was the lead model for Burberry when she came back and
• 1:05:37
  was the lead model for their saddlebag campaign.
• 1:05:39
  And we go to. Sports kids.
• 1:05:41
  Yeah, all the. Horse stuff and also leading the
• 1:05:44
  fans to water and whether you're gonna come with a carrot or
• 1:05:47
  you're gonna come with like the bit we're.
• 1:05:49
  We're going, Yeah. We hadn't seen Lily.
• 1:05:53
  And then all of a sudden, the same day that Travis and Jason
• 1:05:58
  are in France, Lily's sister posts she and Lily 40 minutes
• 1:06:04
  down the road as a later Graham because the other people that
• 1:06:10
  Lily's sister had tagged in the picture already had active
• 1:06:13
  stories where they had moved on to the next spot.
• 1:06:15
  So it was obvious that it was a later Graham.
• 1:06:18
  Oh my God. There's a time when, like Travis
• 1:06:22
  Taylor Ross, SD, like others, were in the Bahamas and Lily
• 1:06:28
  happened to follow an account that was having an artistic
• 1:06:31
  exhibit at the hotel that they were staying at.
• 1:06:35
  Shut up. Do you remember the New Year's
• 1:06:38
  Day post where one of the Hames friends, Grover posted the
• 1:06:44
  picture of he and Taylor and said Taylor said I could finally
• 1:06:46
  post this Swifty's? We were.
• 1:06:49
  That picture was from that 2021 party where Taylor wore the
• 1:06:53
  Victoria's Secret ring so you can see it front and center on
• 1:06:57
  New Year's Day. And then I talked about the
• 1:07:02
  change in the glitter and I referenced that picture and then
• 1:07:05
  Grover posted my TikTok on his story.
• 1:07:09
  So like you don't take a screenshot of a obvious Gaylor
• 1:07:15
  post where the caption clearly said Taylor is no longer hiding
• 1:07:18
  her queerness and put it up on your story to direct people
• 1:07:25
  without approval if you had to get approval to post that 4 year
• 1:07:29
  old picture. Oh my God, that's, oh, I, oh, I
• 1:07:35
  freaked out for a while about that.
• 1:07:40
  Like when you think about the people that are involved with
• 1:07:43
  Taylor and people that know her, her friends and her muses,
• 1:07:47
  etcetera. There has been so much
• 1:07:49
  confirmation from from other people like liking posts
• 1:07:54
  specific or like this situation like reposting like liking
• 1:07:58
  specific posts like Muna being on stage talking about cascade
• 1:08:03
  like. I like gay girls.
• 1:08:06
  Like hey, it is unreal and and at bare minimum it shows that
• 1:08:11
  she and the people around her do not care.
• 1:08:16
  Right. So like if you want to just keep
• 1:08:18
  it at that, sure. But like.
• 1:08:21
  If she wanted to shut it down, she absolutely could, and she
• 1:08:24
  and the others around her do not do that.
• 1:08:26
  They actively inflamed it sometimes.
• 1:08:28
  I get on, they absolutely I get on.
• 1:08:31
  Oh my God, this has been amazing.
• 1:08:33
  I'm so excited to go back and edit this and rewind and I
• 1:08:38
  literally learned so much. Just wow.
• 1:08:40
  Like I'm at a loss for words. I think you fully convinced me
• 1:08:43
  if I had to say my theory right now for like what I think is
• 1:08:47
  going on feel like they had to have been romantically involved
• 1:08:53
  post 2021 at least. The fact that she left modeling.
• 1:08:58
  No one knows where she is. It makes sense for Taylor to
• 1:09:02
  have like a super super secret muse.
• 1:09:05
  Yeah, when when I look at what I know about Lily and what I look
• 1:09:09
  at like what we've seen of how Taylor writes about this person
• 1:09:14
  that we've seen basically from reputation, it just it matches
• 1:09:18
  to me. And I, and I understand it's
• 1:09:20
  like kind of far fetched to think all of this is going on
• 1:09:23
  behind the scenes, but I have seen so much evidence over the
• 1:09:28
  past four or five years that it's just I, I don't have any
• 1:09:33
  other explanation. But so thank you so much for
• 1:09:35
  like having me on and letting me talk about it and, and, and tell
• 1:09:39
  you all of the things. Thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:09:43
  Seriously. Like I know you carried the
• 1:09:45
  entire podcast and I was just like a listener, so I really
• 1:09:50
  appreciate it. I know that my listeners have
• 1:09:52
  been asking for Tilly content for a while so I delivered them
• 1:09:55
  an expert and if you could tell people your username and like
• 1:10:01
  where to find your content that would be great.
• 1:10:04
  Yeah absolutely. I would love to to have y'all
• 1:10:07
  and tell you anything else that you want to hear.
• 1:10:09
  I am on TikTok and on YouTube with the username Wolverina 55
• 1:10:15
  So it's like Wolverine cuz Logan but with an A and then 55.
• 1:10:20
  Hey I had so much fun, this was awesome.
• 1:10:24
  Too. Thank you, Haley.
• 1:10:25
  Thanks for having me. And a reminder for listeners and
• 1:10:29
  viewers to follow Logan to subscribe on Spotify and
• 1:10:34
  YouTube. And what else?
• 1:10:37
  I think that's it. I'll see you soon.
• 1:10:40
  Bye.