Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 37 - When Did Satan Fall?

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Ep. 37 - When Did Satan Fall? · Martyr's Row

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  This week on Martyrs Row. Is there one Satan
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  or two? How many are there? Do Seventh -day Adventists
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  have the Ark of the Covenant? Do all snakes eat
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  dirt or just the bad ones? Are angels still falling
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  out of heaven? I don't know! Let's find out!
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  Three, two, one! Shmona and Guria Saint Shmona
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  and Guria, citizens of Edessa and Mesopotamia,
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  suffered in the persecution of Diocletian for
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  their steadfast confession of Christ. Being accused
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  as Christians, they were brought before the governor
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  and commanded to sacrifice to the idols, which
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  they refused, saying that they would offer only
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  the sacrifice of praise unto the living God.
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  For this, They were bound and cruelly tormented,
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  yet bore all with meekness, praying for their
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  persecutors. When neither threats nor pain could
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  move them, they were cast into prison, where
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  after many days they were brought forth again
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  and strangled with cords. Thus these faithful
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  friends, joined in life and death, sealed their
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  testimony with one spirit, showing that the love
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  of Christ is stronger than death. and that no
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  bond is greater than the fellowship of the saints.
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  Anno Domini, 309. Hey, Paul. What's up? Devon.
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  Have you ever heard of a man named Ron Wyatt?
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  Yes. Really? But I couldn't tell you anything.
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  You don't know why? The name is familiar. Not
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  Ron White. That's a different guy. That is a
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  different guy. Ron White was on the... comedic
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  tour with the southern guys, the hillbilly guys.
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  Larry the Cable Guy. And the Are You Smarter
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  Than a Fifth Grader guy. Yeah, Foxworthy. Yeah,
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  Jeff, Foxworthy. Wait, was Ron White with them?
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  That seems right. I'm pretty sure he was. I think
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  he was. This is Ron Wyatt. But Wyatt, I've heard
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  of him, but I couldn't tell you anything about
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  him. All right, in 1978. to 1982. It sounds like
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  I just lied about that. No, no, I do, but like,
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  I don't know. I know the guy. I know him, just
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  don't text me on it. Like 1978, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Just don't text me on it. Like 1978. He's just
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  like repeating it as I say it. He's like, no,
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  19! Yeah, yeah. Okay, so from 1978 to 1982, over
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  this four year span, while exploring caves under
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  the Garden Tomb area, north of the Damascus Gate.
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  Wyatt said he found a cave system leading to
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  a chamber containing the Ark of the Covenant,
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  along with several other biblical artifacts.
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  He claimed the Ark sat beneath a crack in the
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  rock, directly under where Jesus was crucified,
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  and that Christ's blood had dripped through the
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  crack onto the mercy seat of the Ark. He identified
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  this as the literal fulfillment of the atonement
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  symbolism. The blood of the Lamb Christ sprinkled
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  on the Ark's mercy seat. Dang. Wouldn't that
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  be crazy if it was true? That's what I was gonna
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  say. I was like, that's actually wild, but it
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  sounds not true. Well, so a couple of things.
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  The garden tomb is a site that is a holy site
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  because of Constantine's mother -in -law. So
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  300 rough years after that. So here's the thing,
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  a simple thing about this is if you study or
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  you look at archeology in Jerusalem itself, there
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  are a lot of things that are inconsistent about
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  holy sites, particularly Christian holy sites.
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  to the biblical narrative. One really clear example
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  of that is Church of the Holy Sepulcher. So where
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  they believe that the cross was, there's a church
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  built around that site, and that site is inside
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  the old city gates. Problematic, because crucifixion
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  was a Roman, was a Roman death practice that
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  I think they nailed it. I don't think they practiced
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  it. That's true. They didn't need to practice.
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  They literally nailed it. So they would crucify
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  people and they would put the crosses up outside
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  the city gates. The reason they did that is because
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  being hung on a cross was the death of a failed
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  insurrectionist. So basically the death of a
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  false messiah. Because an insurrectionist would
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  be coming up against the Roman government saying,
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  with military force trying to overtake the Roman
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  government. And of course Caesar was God, so
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  thus a false messiah's death. So they would have
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  understood that crucifixions don't take place
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  inside the city walls, it takes place outside.
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  So that as people walk into the city, they're
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  seeing those crucified so they know not to raise
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  up an insurrection. So problem number one. Yeah,
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  I mean that's the thing that we see in other
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  cultures too where they'd, yeah, on spikes hang
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  up dead people outside of, people that they had,
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  killed outside of the gates. So yeah, as you're
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  walking toward, and this is, yeah, I mean, you
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  see this a lot of different cultures. Yeah, plus
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  you wouldn't leave someone hanging to die. Inside
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  where it's stinky. Yeah, you wouldn't do that.
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  No, no, no. Inside where it's stinky. It's like,
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  ugh. Wyatt said the chamber also contained the
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  original tablets of the Ten Commandments, the
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  table of showbread, golden altar of incense,
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  and other temple furnishings. A sample of Christ's
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  dried blood, which he claimed to have taken for
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  testing, allegedly showing a unique chromosome
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  count. 23 from the mother and one from God. That
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  is a unique chromosome count. How did he just
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  know that? He's like, hmm. That's interesting.
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  I'll, uh... I'll give you some more information
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  in a second. Wyatt said that during his excavations
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  north of Jerusalem's Damascus Gate in the area
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  of the Garden Tomb, he discovered a narrow passage
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  leading to a natural cave. He reportedly crawled
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  inside and found himself in a stone chamber that
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  contained a large stone box, which he said held
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  the Ark of the Covenant. Other gold -plated temple
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  objects and a black substance, dried blood, that
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  had dripped onto the lid of the ark through a
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  crack in the ceiling, a crack he believed extended
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  up to the surface of Galgotha, the crucifixion
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  site. He believed it did. He didn't know for
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  sure. Listen guys. No, that's not the information.
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  He claimed he saw the ark only briefly as the
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  chamber was cramped and covered in debris. He
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  said he did not remove the ark or any items from
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  the chamber, believing God did not permit him
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  to do so at that time. Wyatt said that later
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  on a return visit, four Israeli government officials
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  entered the cave, saw the ark, and were allegedly
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  struck dead by divine power. After that, he claimed
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  the authorities sealed the chamber for protection.
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  In recorded interviews, 1989 to 1998, he said,
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  when I first entered that chamber, it was very
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  tight. I could see the arc in the stone box.
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  The lid was cracked and the black substance had
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  run down from the crack in the ceiling onto it.
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  I knew what it was. He claimed that after this
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  experience, angels appeared to him in the chamber
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  and told him the contents would be revealed to
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  the world at an appointed time, specifically
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  after the Sunday law crisis. A reference to his
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  Seventh -day Adventist prophetic interpretation
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  Now it's all coming together and thus revealed
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  Yeah, so interesting guy very interesting, yeah,
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  I Love how a lot of this is just like yes. Okay,
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  so I went into this cave and I also I saw this
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  thing but only briefly Yeah, just real quick.
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  So and I saw this other stuff and I knew what
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  it was. Yeah It's like, oh, what was above it?
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  I'm pretty sure it was. Yeah. Well, and within
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  that, there's description of like, I didn't go
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  all the way into the cave because it was really
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  cramped. And I looked and I saw. But then later
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  in interviews, he says, I went in there and saw
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  everything. Yeah. So you're like, which one was
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  it? Which one? Yeah. But then also the assumption
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  that also four other guys got in there and they
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  all died. Yeah, they all died. Yeah. How did
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  you barely got in there? Four people squeezing
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  it. But also I love the idea that he dug underneath,
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  found the secret chamber, and then was like,
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  oh, there's some black stuff. That must be the
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  blood of Christ that came down and fell upon
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  the mercy seat, which is solidifying Christ as
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  the sacrificial lamb. Because that's definitely
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  the Ark of the Covenant. Yeah, and that would...
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  definitely not be recorded in scripture. I didn't
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  get close to it. I didn't touch it. Cause you
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  know, I didn't think I was allowed to. Like,
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  well then how do you know that's what it was?
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  Yeah. I just know. Trust me, bro. There is interesting
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  things about this. I feel like we could do a
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  whole episode on the arc of the covenant through
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  scripture. Which would be kind of fun. That would
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  actually be really fun. Yeah. And like figure
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  out where it was and where it went. Yeah. That
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  could be a fun one. Yeah, yeah. Because there's
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  a passage, I believe in Zechariah, where he basically
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  prophetic word of the idea that the ark will
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  no longer be in the temple and it will no longer
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  be necessary. Yeah. Is basically the paraphrase
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  statement, which is interesting. But, yeah, so
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  let me tell you who Ron Wyatt was. Okay, please.
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  Because right now it sounds like he's a Seventh
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  -day Adventist archaeologist. Right. Not what
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  he is. Ronald Eldon Wyatt was a certified nurse
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  anesthetist. Like anesthesia? Yes. Okay. He trained...
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  He trained in medical anesthesia, not archaeology
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  or theology. Even better. He was definitely an
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  American. He's a mill nurse. But he was a devout
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  Seventh -day Adventist whose faith heavily influenced
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  his explorations. Yeah, so beginning in the 1970s
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  Wyatt spent his own money to lead expeditions
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  to the Middle East claiming to have found Noah's
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  Ark Mount Ararat region of Turkey the red the
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  Red Sea crossing site the real Mount Sinai in
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  Saudi Arabia That's an interesting conversation
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  busy Saddam Gamora Asher mains in the Ark of
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  the Covenant beneath Galgotha in Jerusalem He
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  found his welcome. He's like I found it all.
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  I got it. He founded Wyatt Archaeological Research,
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  which is like where he promoted his discoveries.
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  Now, the interesting thing about this is you
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  might think, again, an amateur archaeologist,
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  which to me goes... I polished from rocks in
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  my day. If I right now in 2025 went over to Israel,
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  it was like, I'm just going to dig up underneath
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  this holy site. There's no way they would let
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  me do that. Good luck. I mean... To live in the
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  1970s, man, it must have been awesome. Freedom.
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  Honestly, that's the number one reason you wouldn't
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  be able to make Raiders of the Lost Ark now.
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  Yeah, they couldn't do anything. No, because
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  people would be like, what? How are you going
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  to believe that? Did you get a permit for that?
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  Yeah, exactly. Back then, you could do whatever
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  you wanted, apparently. They'd show up to wherever
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  the temple was in the end of... There's just
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  like they just show up and there's just like
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  a purple like stanza But here's the thing what
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  do I buy a ticket over here I brought my shovel
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  sir. You can't have that no. What are you doing?
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  You got to run through the scanner. Yeah You
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  can just look at it Yeah, if you want to make
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  things up you can I don't care, but there's glass
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  you can't go in there There's an invisible bridge
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  there, okay, but here's the thing I wanted to
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  look up like okay, if he's if he is Seventh -day
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  Adventist But he's not like he doesn't like he's
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  not a minister or anything of their He's just
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  a regular tender. Yeah Okay, maybe he has like
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  this cult following of but that maybe that's
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  a little bit too on the nose But um, he has this
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  uh group that falls very closely It listens to
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  every word or maybe like they support him. Yeah,
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  they don't at all. They don't They're they're
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  like the Seventh -day Adventists are like we
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  don't support anything that Ron Wyatt says So
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  even his own people reject his claims. I love
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  it, you just kinda like, no guys I found it all.
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  Like, okay. Yeah, exactly. Ron's got a story
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  again, let's let him share. Here comes all Ron.
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  But there are some - He's the guy you avoid.
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  You're just like, someone save me. Like, oh,
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  he's walking this way. There are some people
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  though that, with the Seventh -day Adventist
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  Church that, because some of the things that
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  he says lines up with their eschatology, it's
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  like, Okay, we kind of believe this guy like
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  we kind of believe these things. Okay, they run
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  along with it, but nobody else does It's just
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  interesting. That is very interesting, right?
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  But I love the image like because at the same
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  time he could be right about some of those things
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  Maybe I mean, but the thing is is like a lot
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  of that stuff was discovered around that time
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  Yeah, so like we do actually know where Sodom
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  and Gomorrah was because yeah like they're actually
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  are like balls of Is it sulfuric acid? It's like
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  you can actually find the, you can actually find
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  these places and they for sure like. Like that
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  is what that is. Like modern archeology has basically
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  said this is where this is. Yeah. And I think
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  it's around the same time. So it's just like,
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  yeah, me too. Uh huh. I said that. Yeah. Now
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  the real Mount Sinai, that's an interesting one.
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  That's a very interesting one. And then, but
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  we've talked a little bit about Ark of the Covenant
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  in. Yeah, in Mount Ararat region and all this
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  stuff. But, so anyways. Or Noah's Ark, not the
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  Ark of the Covenant. Yes, you're right, you're
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  correct. Different ark. What if the Ark of the
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  Covenant was as big as Noah's Ark? Be pretty
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  easy to find. How did we miss that? Oh wait,
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  we still haven't found Noah's Ark though, so
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  maybe not very easy to find. Okay, not that easy.
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  But, yeah, so Ron Wyatt, like, God rest his soul.
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  But I love the idea that like hey the Ark of
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  the Covenant is way down in this cave underneath
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  Galgotha Yeah, when Jesus died and his blood
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  ran down through the cave system and fell onto
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  the mercy seat Like let's just say that that's
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  true. Okay, my question is like how to get there
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  Yeah, because with the veil was and they just
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  kind of forgot it No, they would have put it
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  there wasn't like they put it there. They're
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  just like yeah, it's good Well, someone probably
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  went down was like what's this blood doing on
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  your thing? They'll wipe it off But but like
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  no one's there like guarding it not like there's
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  no booby trap set up Well, the blood would have
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  just ceased and put it there. Oh, you know like
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  there's no like over centuries like no one was
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  guarding this area Like this is a sacred area.
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  There's no like Any kind of obstacle to get to
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  it, besides this little bit of tight area. They
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  most forgot it was there. Like, how did they
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  get it in there? Yeah, I don't know. He held
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  it for such a time as this. Yeah. So tell the
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  Ron Wyatt fans out there, we apologize. But kind
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  of a cool idea. Hey, you gotta respect the hustle.
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  Interesting to say the least. But an episode
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  coming on the Ark of the Covenant through biblical
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  archaeology would be interesting. In Mount Sinai.
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  And Mount Sinai. Or Mount Era, I mean. No, Mount
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  Sinai. Both. Okay. Three, two, one. Truth still
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  breathes on the other side Gather hearts where
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  the fire once burned The song from saints that
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  we slowly learned Through the smoke new flowers
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  grow Rooted deep in mortars grow The talk of
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  grace echoes The ones who love this world the
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  most And every name the wind will know, Parvin
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  light on mortars grow. His laughter under the
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  gallows beam, Faith and fear both share the dream,
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  Every doubt a prayer hath said. Every truth once
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  left for dead We're the choir that time forgot
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  Singing hymns where the fires hide Turn the mic
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  up and let it show The saints still speak on
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  martyr's row We talk of grace and ghosts The
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  ones who love this world the most Every name
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  the wind will know Carved in light on Martyr's
• 20:02
  Row Carved in light on Martyr's Row Carved in
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  light Hey Paul. What's up? Genesis 1 verses 1.
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  That's the beginning, isn't it? In the beginning.
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  What? God created the heavens and the earth.
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  Verse 2. The earth was without form and void,
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  and darkness was over the face of the deep. And
• 20:45
  the Spirit of God was hovering over the face
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  of the water. Paul, when did Satan fall? And
• 20:54
  why was it between Genesis 1 -1 and Genesis 1
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  -2? Oh, did I just answer the question? Let's
• 21:04
  try that again. Let me try that again. First
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  John 3 -8. Whoever makes a practice of sinning
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  is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning
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  from the beginning. The reason the Son of God
• 21:20
  appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
• 21:24
  So Paul, when did the devil first send? Wait.
• 21:31
  I think you just answered your own question.
• 21:32
  Fall? When did the devil first fall? When did
• 21:36
  the fall of the devil occur? Devil fall? Devil
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  fall. Fall devil. Devil may cry? Is the devil
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  crying? Is he crying? Is he weeping? Is the devil
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  weeping? Is the ancient serpent in a corner somewhere
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  in the depths of the ocean weeping some sweaty
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  eyes So Paul, here's my question for you after
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  all of the questions I just asked My question
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  for you is Paul. When did Satan fall? This is
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  amazing You know, so We actually brought this
• 22:14
  concept up. Oh, you're right. So what we need
• 22:17
  to actually do is we need to ask the question,
• 22:20
  not right now. Yes. But from last episode. Exactly.
• 22:24
  So let's ask the question. So let's. But again,
• 22:32
  yeah, we literally see the constellation Virgo.
• 22:36
  Yes. Above the constellation Scorpio. And it's
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  as if. the virgin is crushing the head of the
• 22:45
  serpent. Yes. And I think I mentioned this on
• 22:48
  a previous episode, that literally happened.
• 22:51
  I know. We did. At the birth of Christ. Yes.
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  Yeah. Yeah, so if you look up when did those
• 22:56
  constellations line up, it happened around the
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  birth of Christ. Yes. So like, that's actual
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  signs literally in the sky that tell the story
• 23:06
  of what's actually happening on Earth. Yes. And
• 23:09
  Revelation paints that exact same picture. Yeah.
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  It's talked about in Genesis 3, then it talks
• 23:15
  about it in Revelation 12. Yes. And so the kind
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  of tease I want to pull out of here a little
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  bit for a future episode is, so what the events
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  that just happened here that Revelation's talking
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  about happened then. Yes. And that's where the
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  verse where we look at, okay, like he took a
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  third of the stars with him. That didn't happen
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  in Genesis 3. Potentially. Well, as far as like
• 23:39
  how we're reading it here, it's like what he's
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  talking about it right then so Paul what you're
• 23:44
  saying is There's a potential that Genesis or
• 23:49
  Revelation 12 gives us insight mm -hmm potentially
• 23:53
  to win the angels fell and When Satan fell like
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  lightning? Yes, because Jesus says he saw it.
• 24:02
  That's right So if Jesus saw us of that yes,
• 24:06
  yeah So that we got a lot of we have a lot to
• 24:10
  talk about we do you ready? I'm ready three two
• 24:13
  one All right, so and what So quick answer Just
• 24:24
  kidding wrong show Now you know my super short
• 24:30
  show did you know that no, that's great that
• 24:33
  I love that I think it's Nickelodeon Like back
• 24:35
  in the day. It was really like really quippy.
• 24:37
  He would go and now you know my super short show
• 24:40
  and then maybe like So Paul so Satan this guy
• 24:55
  what when did he fall? Why is he falling? so
• 25:01
  You know what's funny, I actually, I asked a
• 25:04
  similar question to a friend of mine recently.
• 25:08
  Perfect, I love asking that question to just
• 25:10
  a friend. And he's a very traditional, by traditional
• 25:15
  I mean mod norm. Okay, watch previous episode.
• 25:23
  Welcome back. This whole episode is every 10
• 25:26
  seconds, it's like we're snapping into it. Go
• 25:28
  back to the old show. And so I asked him a question.
• 25:32
  You asked your mod norm friend. It's a hard one.
• 25:37
  I asked my mod norm friend. And a very similar
• 25:42
  question. When did Satan fall? When do you think
• 25:44
  that happened? And he was like, well, in the
• 25:46
  beginning. Before everything happened. I was
• 25:50
  like, really? He's like, yeah. And that's why
• 25:52
  the serpent, then he could tempt everyone. I
• 25:54
  was like, hmm. Yeah, and you believe that And
• 26:00
  I'm guessing at the time you did not I Didn't
• 26:05
  and you may not now but we may never know but
• 26:07
  we're gonna we're gonna talk about it because
• 26:09
  it's a it became like a very complex question
• 26:12
  sure because it's like when And it's been like
• 26:15
  a thing for a while. It's like when someone says
• 26:16
  that it's like, okay But like where's that where's
• 26:18
  that idea come from? Exactly, and that's really
• 26:20
  my question. It's like okay. Well, let's for
• 26:23
  the past like 15 years of my life. Okay, that's
• 26:27
  not an exaggeration. Okay, fortunately or unfortunately,
• 26:30
  I don't know. Yeah, I mean you're only 16 years
• 26:31
  old. That's true. Thank you. I think? Is that
• 26:38
  a compliment? It's like you're not an adult.
• 26:42
  Oh yeah, I should have said 18. 16 was funnier
• 26:47
  though. It was pretty funny, it was good. And
• 26:51
  so I've spent like a lot of time just like looking
• 26:54
  at Genesis. And especially the first few chapters.
• 26:58
  Because it's like, what's happening here? We
• 27:01
  seem to keep going back to it. There's a lot
• 27:04
  in there. And the Old Testament in particular,
• 27:07
  it does a good job of condensing a lot of time
• 27:10
  in a few verses. Yeah, for sure. And it makes
• 27:14
  sense why. Yeah, I guess. Kind of. But also it's
• 27:19
  like, there's a lot going on in here. So even
• 27:23
  when we look at the serpent, which we'll come
• 27:25
  back to it again later, but it's like, okay,
• 27:29
  like it doesn't say that he was evil before.
• 27:34
  Yeah, sure. So before he caused, or before he
• 27:38
  deceived the woman. Yeah, at least it doesn't
• 27:40
  say that in Genesis one through three. Right,
• 27:43
  that idea isn't explicit. Yeah. And even throughout
• 27:46
  the rest of scripture, nothing supports that
• 27:48
  idea. Sure, yeah. Kind of. It doesn't support
• 27:53
  the idea like, oh yeah, he was a fallen being.
• 27:57
  Oh right, I see what you're saying. Before he
• 27:58
  deceived man and woman. Right, yes. Yes, because
• 28:02
  we do get some descriptions of this particular
• 28:05
  being. Yeah. But you do get the, you do get the
• 28:09
  like sly sideways statement of craftier than
• 28:12
  any other beast in the field. Right. So, well
• 28:16
  that doesn't necessarily mean like - But it doesn't
• 28:17
  mean evil. Yeah, or does it? And that's the thing
• 28:21
  it's like I think we'd be inclined to say yes,
• 28:24
  it does because of Mod norm right because of
• 28:27
  where we are now because how we're taught to
• 28:29
  read into it, right? But it's like all right.
• 28:31
  Let's like remove all of that sure and let's
• 28:33
  just like what does it say? Yeah, it's like well
• 28:35
  If you just read it for what it says it seems
• 28:37
  to say something different. It's like they both
• 28:39
  felt the same time Okay, you know what I mean
• 28:42
  in a sense. Yeah, and by both you mean like man
• 28:46
  and the serpent got it They all get cursed at
• 28:49
  the same time. Well, so that is an interesting
• 28:51
  piece. So in Genesis 3, when God curses them,
• 28:55
  he does it at the same time. Right. So you would
• 28:58
  assume that if that event is the fall of man,
• 29:07
  is it also the fall of Satan? Right. And do we
• 29:13
  have indication that they're different? In the
• 29:17
  punishment, it all seems to be at the same degree.
• 29:23
  Yes. Although it is different punishment for
• 29:26
  different people. Correct. Or different beings.
• 29:30
  Yes. Yeah, fair enough. But it doesn't necessarily
• 29:34
  say one was already evil. Yeah. And it's not
• 29:37
  necessarily like, well, you know the serpent.
• 29:41
  the one that was already evil. You know that
• 29:43
  bad guy? Yeah, this is something else that God
• 29:46
  did to him. Yes. He just doubled down on this
• 29:50
  guy. Right, or this was like a second offense.
• 29:53
  Right, we don't get that language. We don't.
• 29:56
  So we do kind of get the idea that there's some,
• 30:01
  I don't know, because the craftier idea is definitely
• 30:05
  one of those things where it's like he had an
• 30:08
  intent in the moment. Yes, but it feels more
• 30:12
  like temptation Exactly then intention of sin.
• 30:16
  Yes. It's like he has in when we look at that
• 30:20
  idea of like craftiness. It's like you have the
• 30:22
  Ability to be a certain way right, but doesn't
• 30:26
  mean you'll act on that thing which asks a larger
• 30:29
  question Yeah, that and this is part of the reason
• 30:32
  why a cut -and -dry answer of well Satan was
• 30:37
  just born that way Well, that brings up a whole
• 30:39
  other list. That's a whole can of worms. Because
• 30:42
  then it's like, well, who bore him? Right. So
• 30:45
  does that mean that, so if he was born that way,
• 30:49
  which is not the suggestion of the individual
• 30:51
  you were talking to, but if so, then God created
• 30:54
  him that way, and that's a whole other. Which
• 30:57
  some people do believe that. Well, it does fall
• 31:00
  a little bit in line with Job, where the Satan,
• 31:07
  is an accuser, but that's really like his day
• 31:11
  job. Well, so that's, we can talk a little bit
• 31:14
  about that right now. Well, so the thing I was
• 31:17
  thinking though is in the craftier than any other
• 31:21
  beast of the field, in that idea, you kind of
• 31:25
  get this opportunity for temptation. Yeah. So
• 31:28
  it's really presenting to us, as far as like
• 31:32
  if you're just reading the text, it's showing
• 31:35
  us that these individuals had the ability to
• 31:39
  fall or succumb to their temptation. Yes. Means
• 31:43
  that they had the ability to be tempted. Yeah.
• 31:46
  So that they were not infallible beings. Correct.
• 31:50
  So it's just an expression of their infallibility.
• 31:52
  And I think like - Or non -infallibility. For
• 31:55
  like a quick like dive into that a little bit.
• 31:57
  Sure. I think that's an example of same with
• 32:01
  man. It's like man wasn't born without the ability
• 32:03
  to sin. Right. Or was he? Well, obviously not,
• 32:09
  because we did. Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think
• 32:12
  that's one of those examples. That's God showing
• 32:17
  a love of, I want you to make a decision, and
• 32:21
  he allows his creation to make decisions. Yes.
• 32:25
  He doesn't make us infallible. If we were infallible,
• 32:27
  we would never have sinned. Correct. And so it's
• 32:29
  like he allows us to make the decision, are you
• 32:31
  going to choose me or not? And we get to make
• 32:34
  that decision. Which means that in the garden,
• 32:36
  in creation itself, pre -garden and in the garden,
• 32:41
  beings, created beings, seem to have the ability
• 32:46
  for choice and to choose a way that is against
• 32:52
  or away from Yahweh's designed order. Or Yahweh's...
• 32:58
  Preferred or what his yeah what his plan is or
• 33:02
  what his desired outcome is? Yeah, yeah, cuz
• 33:04
  I think that's that's like plan is even kind
• 33:06
  of a messy thing even with job like that's That's
• 33:10
  the that's the idea that we get there. It's like
• 33:12
  God didn't create a world without the capacity
• 33:15
  for suffering Sure, like that's that wasn't part
• 33:18
  of his plan, right? That wasn't part of what
• 33:21
  he created. Yeah. Yeah. So that capacity was
• 33:24
  there. It doesn't mean that's what he wanted
• 33:25
  to happen. Yeah, but the ability for that to
• 33:28
  happen was there. And I think that's the same
• 33:30
  thing we see. It comes to the idea of God doesn't
• 33:32
  violate man's or being's free will. We see that
• 33:37
  amongst the angels, we see that amongst humans.
• 33:40
  So he doesn't violate those things. And I think
• 33:42
  to elevate him in this is like, God's too smart
• 33:46
  to not have to do that. And it's like, yeah,
• 33:50
  when we start to kind of play these games of,
• 33:54
  oh yeah, he forced someone to do this, or he...
• 33:56
  You know made someone do this. It's like well
• 33:58
  now you're seeing us to cheat to get what he
• 33:59
  wants It's like he's too smart for that. He doesn't
• 34:02
  have to do that Well, and and in some ways why
• 34:05
  would the scripture be written the way it's written
• 34:07
  if that were the case exactly why wouldn't it
• 34:10
  be just that Moses is writing down the story
• 34:13
  of God created these people and he caused them
• 34:17
  to fall away from him, right? And then, like,
• 34:21
  why would it be so nuanced? Because that's not
• 34:23
  really, like, the Bible doesn't really give us
• 34:26
  those type of nuances where we're trying to distinguish
• 34:30
  between good and evil. It's telling us what is
• 34:34
  good and what is evil. To what you just said,
• 34:36
  too, it even goes to what Jesus himself says
• 34:38
  when he's casting out demons and they blame him
• 34:41
  of being a worker of Beelzebub. And he's like,
• 34:43
  well, a house divided can't stand. And it's the
• 34:46
  same idea of God created man to fall. With the
• 34:50
  ability to fall well no no like just by the idea
• 34:54
  of God It's like if God created man and the intent
• 34:56
  was let me create man so they fall and then I
• 34:58
  can redeem them And I get more glory. It's like
• 35:00
  that's a house divided Yeah, you know particularly
• 35:04
  you can't cast out Satan right particularly if
• 35:07
  God Creates a being and makes that being Evil
• 35:14
  yes in order to create that plan. Yeah, right
• 35:18
  it's like That's him working, that's the same,
• 35:22
  it's what he calls, what Jesus calls out in the
• 35:25
  gospels of saying, you know, why was this man
• 35:28
  born lame? Is it because of his father's sin
• 35:30
  or his own? It's like, neither. He wasn't created
• 35:34
  this way. It wasn't forced for him to be this
• 35:37
  way. And so I think that goes back to the idea
• 35:40
  again in the beginning. It's like, God didn't
• 35:42
  create us to do that. He created us, but we had
• 35:45
  the capacity to do that. He wanted us to choose.
• 35:49
  I mean, in that instance though, the person was
• 35:52
  born that way, and Jesus' response is, for this
• 35:57
  moment, for my glory. But he didn't make him
• 36:02
  that way. Correct. It was an allowance of that
• 36:05
  to be how... the birthing process resulted. Which
• 36:12
  exists in a fallen space. So a corrupted world
• 36:16
  allows for that ability. But the interesting
• 36:22
  thing about this, like kind of folding back in
• 36:25
  on the original thing is something you may not
• 36:28
  consider or may not think about is the idea that
• 36:33
  non -humans have the ability of free will. they
• 36:38
  do or they don't have the concept of free will.
• 36:41
  Because again, why would we, it would make Yahweh
• 36:45
  the most craftiest beast of the field or the
• 36:48
  most craftiest being in that he's creating the
• 36:55
  narrative in such a way that would lead us in
• 37:00
  a deception. Because otherwise it would just
• 37:04
  be saying, God created this, he created this
• 37:08
  person for this, he created this for that. That
• 37:11
  is actually what the Bible's telling us. It's
• 37:13
  telling us what is good and what's evil. And
• 37:16
  so for him to conceal how he created things specifically
• 37:21
  in such a way that is fully sovereign, in a everything
• 37:28
  is laid out exactly how it's supposed to be,
• 37:30
  but I'm going to conceal that I was Oz. and I'm
• 37:35
  the puppet master, and I'm gonna tell you that
• 37:38
  I'm good and everything that I do is good and
• 37:43
  that I am the definition of good, but I'm not
• 37:45
  gonna tell you that I was actually the one that
• 37:47
  orchestrated all this. You know what I mean?
• 37:49
  There's a craftiness there that doesn't seem
• 37:52
  to be consistent with the character of God in
• 37:54
  the way that the Bible's written. So that is
• 37:57
  a tricky thing, because I feel like that is the
• 38:00
  line where people go, well, God is evil. Can
• 38:03
  you imagine all of this? It's like, why would
• 38:05
  he create all of this? Well, I think in order
• 38:09
  for you to believe that, you would have to believe
• 38:11
  that the Bible is a deception given to us by
• 38:15
  God, which I think people do believe that. Some
• 38:17
  people believe that, yeah. Which you would have
• 38:19
  to come all the way to this conclusion and get
• 38:22
  to it from where we just got to it. And I think
• 38:26
  that's interesting in the sense that like, how
• 38:29
  do you argue out of that? And I think some of
• 38:32
  that comes to a poor understanding of sovereignty.
• 38:37
  And what does God know or control? And I think
• 38:42
  that's the, at least for me, and a short side
• 38:45
  of this, is my approach to this and how I've
• 38:48
  approached it going through scripture is, so
• 38:53
  God is not subject to anything. And that means
• 38:56
  like, Oh, logic exists, but God isn't subject
• 39:00
  to logic, but everything he does is logical.
• 39:03
  It's like he's not subject to knowledge. He knows
• 39:07
  more than what is capable of being known. So
• 39:11
  it's like there's no limitation to it. It's like
• 39:14
  the limitation of the idea, the concept that
• 39:17
  we have, he knows more than it. And it's like,
• 39:20
  well, how is that possible? The complexity is
• 39:22
  infinite. Yeah. And so with that, it's like,
• 39:26
  And we see moments of this throughout, especially
• 39:30
  in like Kings and Samuels, in those books, where
• 39:35
  God, he allows for other things to make decisions.
• 39:42
  And he even shows, he's like, hey, I know possibilities
• 39:45
  that won't happen. And we see that with David
• 39:47
  specifically, where David's like, okay, what
• 39:50
  happens if I go down here? He's like, oh, if
• 39:51
  you do this, that's gonna happen. But if you
• 39:53
  don't do that, then this will happen. and then
• 39:56
  David makes one decision, and the other thing
• 39:58
  doesn't happen. So it's like, God knows everything
• 40:01
  that could happen. And so with that, it's like,
• 40:05
  because - He's a chess player. Yeah, that's exactly
• 40:08
  the idea there. He's kind of playing chess with
• 40:11
  everyone at the same time all at once. Yes. And
• 40:15
  it's like, so God, since he knows more than is
• 40:19
  capable of being known, he knows how to get what
• 40:22
  he wants. So he's like, hey, I want the story
• 40:25
  of Jesus to happen. And it will happen. Now,
• 40:29
  how it happens, maybe some of it's a little bit
• 40:34
  different than maybe he wanted. It's like, I
• 40:35
  called someone to do this, but they failed. And
• 40:38
  so I called someone else to replace them. I mean,
• 40:41
  we even see that with Elijah. But in the sense
• 40:43
  that God is not playing a chess board where the
• 40:47
  people have to be moved by his hand. No, they're
• 40:50
  making their own moves. Yeah. And then he's going...
• 40:53
  Okay, well now I have to adjust. Yeah. So we're
• 40:57
  playing him. And that doesn't diminish his ability
• 41:00
  at all. Right. But it's showing he doesn't violate
• 41:03
  free will. Yes. He doesn't violate his intent
• 41:06
  for us to make decisions. Yes, or at least what
• 41:09
  the Bible is showing us is consistency in the
• 41:11
  action of God. Correct. Which, again, depending
• 41:15
  on how you read the scriptures, people would
• 41:17
  say, well, he seems to actually be different
• 41:20
  from here to there. And you go, Okay, let's read
• 41:24
  it again and find the consistency of where things
• 41:28
  actually do line up and repeat and themes over
• 41:31
  and over again, where there are themes like be
• 41:35
  fruitful and multiply that show up all the way
• 41:37
  through. There are themes like... We were talking
• 41:39
  about the promise of Abraham. Yes, exactly. That's
• 41:42
  consistent from beginning to end. Yeah, and then
• 41:44
  even themes like the theme of I don't wish for...
• 41:52
  sacrifice, but for obedience. I prefer obedience
• 41:56
  over sacrifice. What I want is obedience, not
• 41:59
  sacrifice. You see that in the Old and the New
• 42:01
  Testament. It's consistent throughout. It's like
• 42:04
  what God wants is relationship with us. And that's
• 42:08
  the beginning. And then he goes, you guys keep
• 42:12
  choosing, not me. And I've made everywhere for
• 42:17
  you to be able to choose me. And I'm telling
• 42:20
  you, please If you don't choose me, unfortunately,
• 42:24
  there's a place that I've made for those who
• 42:26
  rebelled against me, who you'll have to join
• 42:30
  them. Please don't do that. I don't want you
• 42:33
  to do that. No. And to be consistent, my love
• 42:38
  also has judgment because that is what creates
• 42:42
  consistency in love. is that there is correct
• 42:45
  judgment of what is right and what is wrong,
• 42:49
  and what will hurt you and what won't. Which
• 42:51
  gets back to the, which this would be a whole
• 42:55
  other question, but it's really going back, and
• 42:57
  maybe we can reset to this spot, is do other
• 43:01
  created beings have the ability to sin against
• 43:05
  God? And I think this is giving us an example
• 43:09
  of that, if we read it this way, if we talk about
• 43:11
  it this way. where the ancient serpent had the
• 43:16
  ability to fall into temptation and actually
• 43:19
  bear fruit in sin. And the thing that I think
• 43:23
  is interesting that I don't think I've thought
• 43:25
  about until the last like couple of years really
• 43:27
  is the idea that spiritual beings are already
• 43:31
  in their eternal state. So what that means is
• 43:36
  non -human beings, beings created by God are
• 43:40
  actively living outside of our timeline and they
• 43:44
  exist in eternity. So they are in existence in
• 43:47
  eternity, which means that the extension of God's
• 43:50
  grace is limited because they are not on a timeline.
• 43:58
  But because humanity is on a timeline, he can
• 44:01
  create an endpoint where people have can experience
• 44:05
  the grace of God over a period of time to eventually
• 44:09
  learn and receive salvation and choose Him, even
• 44:13
  though their life shows that they didn't choose
• 44:16
  Him until the point of receiving Him. Well, the
• 44:19
  proof text to that is, I believe it's the end
• 44:22
  of Genesis 3, where it says, let's kick them
• 44:26
  out of the garden. That way they can't have access
• 44:28
  to the tree of life and live forever. Yes. And
• 44:30
  it's like, well, why does he say that? That's
• 44:33
  his grace and mercy. Saying that if you can't
• 44:36
  die, I can't redeem you. I can't show you grace
• 44:40
  if you can't die. And so by him allowing it so
• 44:44
  we can't regain immortality, he's allowing us
• 44:48
  the opportunity to be redeemed to him. Yeah,
• 44:51
  which then you get like early church fathers
• 44:53
  like Origen who taught universalism. and he even
• 44:59
  believes so far as the grace of God would extend
• 45:01
  to the devil and his angels, that at some point
• 45:03
  all of created things would be redeemed back
• 45:07
  to the glory of God. But that's inconsistent.
• 45:10
  That's not what Jesus himself says. Correct.
• 45:12
  So it's inconsistent with biblical theology.
• 45:16
  And that's why the council's called him a heretic.
• 45:20
  I get it. But because the text itself bears witness
• 45:25
  to the opposite. of that idea. But I think that
• 45:29
  that is the simplicity of it. It's the idea that
• 45:32
  if a being is eternal, it is already in the state
• 45:35
  it's going to be in. That doesn't mean it has
• 45:39
  the inability to sin against God, but it does
• 45:44
  have the inability to receive salvation from
• 45:47
  God because there is no timeline for it to stop
• 45:51
  sinning. Once it has sinned, it has made its
• 45:55
  choice. But for humanity, closing the entry point
• 46:01
  for which man could then enter heaven again,
• 46:07
  where sinful cannot enter the presence of God.
• 46:10
  It can't happen. Because in some ways, if we
• 46:13
  tried to do that, it would destroy us in the
• 46:17
  process. It'd be like walking into a laser beam
• 46:19
  or something. Yeah, and it's like you get purified,
• 46:22
  which means you don't exist anymore. Correct,
• 46:24
  yeah. Yeah, so that idea is kind of interesting.
• 46:30
  I thought about that in the sense that the fact
• 46:33
  that we have time bears witness to the grace
• 46:36
  of God. Yes, absolutely. Because the time we
• 46:40
  have allows us the opportunity to sort through
• 46:44
  our shortcomings and to find Jesus and accept
• 46:48
  him. And I think that's why the verse in Ephesians
• 46:51
  is so important, where it's like, we do not battle
• 46:53
  against flesh and blood. Yes. But powers and
• 46:55
  principalities, it's like. Chapter six, yeah.
• 46:57
  Yeah, it's like, that's the big thing, it's like,
• 47:00
  we, from the moment someone's born to the moment
• 47:02
  they die, they have the ability to be redeemed.
• 47:04
  Yes. But supernatural beings don't have that.
• 47:07
  Correct. And so, we're not fighting. But they
• 47:10
  do have the ability to fall. Yes. Yeah. And so,
• 47:14
  when did. So when did Satan fall, Paul? Yeah.
• 47:19
  So Paul, we did Satan fall. Paul. Actually, could
• 47:25
  you pull your Bible app out? I can. This episode,
• 47:28
  by the way, is unsponsored, but it should be
• 47:31
  sponsored. Brought to you by Bible .com. Revelation
• 47:34
  12. You don't want to touch my phone. Icky germs.
• 47:39
  Okay, Revelation 12. And so we read this on our
• 47:44
  last episode. We did. And I kind of want to use
• 47:46
  this as... our drifting point. Yeah, kind of
• 47:50
  our starting point. Love it. And so I'll start
• 47:54
  here, this is verse one. We're in the middle
• 47:56
  now. We are definitely in the middle, which we've
• 47:59
  talked about a lot, which I think is a great
• 48:01
  setup. It is, yeah. That helps what we're gonna
• 48:03
  say. Yeah, and I think it answers a lot of things
• 48:05
  that people would be like, but what about this?
• 48:07
  Yeah. Or it makes you go, I'm lost now, can you
• 48:11
  reset? That's fair. So, reset. So Paul, when
• 48:16
  did Satan fall? I'm glad you asked. Revelation
• 48:20
  12, starting in verse 1. on his head's seven
• 48:45
  diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars
• 48:48
  of heaven and cast them to the earth, and the
• 48:51
  dragon stood before the woman who was about to
• 48:53
  give birth, so that when she bore her child he
• 48:57
  might devour it. She gave birth to a male child,
• 49:01
  one who was to rule all the nations with a rod
• 49:03
  of iron, but her child was caught up to God and
• 49:07
  to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness,
• 49:09
  where she has a place prepared by God. in which
• 49:13
  she is to be nourished for 1 ,260 days. So, we
• 49:18
  read that on the last episode. Yes. And a quick
• 49:20
  thing, it's like, okay, what are they talking
• 49:23
  about? Sure. Well, that's the birth of Jesus.
• 49:25
  It is, yes. And so we see all these events happening
• 49:28
  then. Yeah, yeah. So now it continues. Okay.
• 49:31
  And says, now. Go for it. War arose in heaven.
• 49:36
  When did war arise in heaven? Now at the birth
• 49:40
  of the Messiah now It's like right then when
• 49:44
  that was happening. Okay, interesting. Yeah Michael
• 49:47
  and his angels fighting against the dragon and
• 49:50
  the dragon and his angels fought back But he
• 49:54
  was defeated and there was no longer any place
• 49:57
  for them in heaven The great dragon was thrown
• 50:00
  down that ancient serpent who is called the devil
• 50:03
  and Satan the deceiver of the whole world He
• 50:06
  was thrown down to the earth and his angels were
• 50:08
  thrown down with him Okay, okay, so that's telling
• 50:14
  us right like just to take that alone It's like
• 50:17
  well saying that he was cast down at The birth
• 50:21
  of Jesus at the incarnation of Christ that there's
• 50:24
  a war in heaven in that moment. Yeah, and it's
• 50:26
  like that's when The dragon was thrown down that
• 50:30
  ancient serpent who is called the devil and Satan,
• 50:32
  but it's like wait Hold on a second if that's
• 50:35
  when he was cast down sure at the incarnation.
• 50:38
  Yeah Who's this who these other guys? Okay, what's
• 50:42
  going on here? Cuz obviously someone's been deceiving
• 50:44
  the whole world sure so then it's like well It
• 50:47
  raises a question was he allowed access into
• 50:49
  heaven Mm -hmm by saying this is a second moment
• 50:53
  Maybe but it's like well, let's say it's like,
• 50:56
  okay, let's say he was fallen but he was still
• 50:57
  allowed access into heaven Okay, but wait you
• 51:00
  just said it yourself How is evil allowed in
• 51:03
  the presence of the Lord? Okay, so how can an
• 51:06
  evil being be in heaven and then cast down later
• 51:10
  Sure So what's happening there? You know what
• 51:14
  I mean? So I'm asking the question. I'm not answering
• 51:17
  it So what I want to do is Let's put a pin right
• 51:23
  there. Okay. That is leaving a little bit of
• 51:30
  context out of going in and out of that chapter.
• 51:34
  Yeah. And so it's like, okay, I'm sure you're
• 51:37
  wondering how we got here. You'd have to be reading
• 51:39
  Revelation in a specific way. Yes. Yeah. And
• 51:43
  so there are things here around even just this
• 51:49
  alone. And one of them is, you know, Luke 10
• 51:51
  17 through 20. Okay, which is Jesus says I saw
• 51:55
  Satan fall like lightning and Then later he says
• 51:58
  I have given you authority to tread on serpents
• 52:01
  Yes, but it's like wait that's happening then
• 52:04
  because the 72 apostles that he or disciples
• 52:06
  that he sent out They come back like whoa, we've
• 52:09
  got some power over. I should just read it. Yeah,
• 52:12
  I'll just read I'm saying is like wait, I can
• 52:14
  just read this You can but that does make sense
• 52:18
  You have to unselect it. That's crazy. Hey, hey,
• 52:23
  Bible app. That's crazy. I'm too dumb to use.
• 52:29
  But sponsor us. Yeah, please. Luke 10. Yes, starting
• 52:35
  in verse 17. The return of the 72. The 72 returned
• 52:42
  with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject
• 52:45
  to us in your name. And he said to them, I saw
• 52:48
  Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold,
• 52:51
  I have given you authority to tread on serpents
• 52:53
  and scorpions, and over all the power of the
• 52:55
  enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless,
• 52:58
  do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are
• 53:00
  subject to you, but rejoice that your names are
• 53:02
  written in heaven. And so with this, in context
• 53:07
  to Revelation 12, he's talking about it all happened
• 53:12
  pretty recent. OK. Interesting. He also says
• 53:17
  whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
• 53:20
  Yes. Yeah. So. But it's interesting because it's
• 53:23
  like we don't see this language in like these
• 53:27
  ideas of like these exorcisms and like the fact
• 53:30
  they come back and say, hey, they're subject
• 53:32
  to us. Yeah. Like this is novel. Right. This
• 53:35
  doesn't happen. Yeah. So what's happening? Yeah.
• 53:38
  He's like, oh, I saw Satan fall. I saw him cast
• 53:41
  out. I see what you're saying. So now you have,
• 53:44
  now essentially what you're saying is I've overcome
• 53:47
  his authority. I've reclaimed the spiritual space.
• 53:50
  Got it. And now you have authority. Okay, I see
• 53:53
  what you're setting up. That's interesting. Oh,
• 53:56
  wait, but this is all happening then. Sure, yeah,
• 54:00
  yeah. This isn't Genesis 3. This isn't before
• 54:03
  Genesis 1. Correct. This is happening in Luke
• 54:06
  10. What? Okay. But what about the serpent? Yeah,
• 54:14
  so This is interesting Paul. Oh, thank you. I
• 54:19
  honestly don't I'm not sure where you're gonna
• 54:21
  go Me either And honestly even with that idea
• 54:28
  there's there's a lot of other verses to we could
• 54:30
  jump into yeah I'm just gonna I'm gonna stick
• 54:32
  with X. I feel like that makes the point pretty
• 54:34
  clear. Yeah, do it. Yeah. Yeah and so this is
• 54:38
  a long section, but I want to bring up Isaiah
• 54:42
  14. Okay, three through 23 Yeah, and so I just
• 54:45
  kind of wrote kind of highlights of it. Okay,
• 54:48
  cuz it's 20 verses, right? It's a lot to read.
• 54:51
  Yeah. Yeah, and we're already like 30 minutes
• 54:53
  into this So in my highlights moment quoting
• 54:58
  it is when the Lord has given you rest from your
• 55:01
  pain and turmoil And this is talking about them
• 55:04
  with Babylon. Okay, that's like the immediate
• 55:07
  context of it. Yeah Well, it's interesting, even
• 55:10
  with that first part, when the Lord has given
• 55:13
  you rest from your pain and turmoil. Sure. So
• 55:15
  it hasn't happened yet. Right. But when it happens.
• 55:18
  And this is in Isaiah. This is Isaiah. Right.
• 55:21
  Take up this taunt. So he's saying, hey, this
• 55:24
  hasn't happened yet. But when it does happen,
• 55:25
  do this. Yes. So it's like, OK, so it's future
• 55:28
  language. Yes. The Lord has broken the staff
• 55:32
  of the wicked that ruled the nations in anger.
• 55:36
  How are you fault? yeah, how you are fallen from
• 55:39
  heaven, you who made the nations low. So those
• 55:43
  are from a lot of different verses I kind of
• 55:44
  pulled together. So it's like, but okay, that's
• 55:47
  like the story of the taunt here that we're seeing.
• 55:50
  Is he saying, hey, this rest hasn't happened
• 55:53
  yet, but it will happen. And when it does, you're
• 55:57
  gonna taunt this guy. And we're talking about
• 56:01
  this being, and a lot of people, there's some
• 56:03
  debate on here, but... I feel like fairly consistently
• 56:08
  a lot of people are saying this points to a Satan
• 56:12
  figure, as well as the immediate Babylon. It's
• 56:16
  like, you have judged the nations unrighteously
• 56:20
  and you will be made low once the Lord has victory.
• 56:24
  Yeah, and this is in Isaiah when the two... pieces
• 56:32
  of Israel have split, the two kingdoms. This
• 56:35
  is during the two kingdoms. And the Lord is saying,
• 56:41
  one of you has followed me better than the other.
• 56:46
  And it's because of Babylon's corruption. And
• 56:50
  then in verse 12, I'll actually read some of
• 56:54
  this. So verse 12, Isaiah 14, how you are fallen
• 56:58
  from heaven, O day star, son of dawn. how you
• 57:02
  are cut down to the ground, you who laid the
• 57:04
  nations low. You said in your heart, I will ascend
• 57:07
  to heaven above the stars of God. I will set
• 57:12
  my throne on high. I will sit on the mount of
• 57:15
  assembly in the far reaches of the north. I will
• 57:19
  ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will
• 57:22
  make myself like the most high. But you are brought
• 57:25
  down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
• 57:29
  Those who see you will stare at you and ponder
• 57:31
  over you. Is this the man who made the earth
• 57:34
  tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world
• 57:38
  like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did
• 57:41
  not let its prisoners go home? all the kings
• 57:44
  of the nations lie in glory each in his own tomb
• 57:48
  but you are cast out away from your grave like
• 57:51
  a loathed branch clothed with the slain those
• 57:54
  pierced by the sword who go down to the stones
• 57:57
  of the pit like a dead body trampled underfoot
• 58:00
  you will not be joined with them in burial because
• 58:03
  you have destroyed your land you have slain your
• 58:05
  people may the offspring of evil doer Doers nevermore
• 58:10
  be named prepare slaughter for his sons because
• 58:13
  of the guilt of their fathers lest They rise
• 58:15
  and possess the earth and fill the face of the
• 58:19
  world with cities So you will be cast down so
• 58:23
  that you cannot be fruitful and multiply in your
• 58:26
  says Which is crazy. It's pretty crazy Yeah,
• 58:31
  and so what's what's interesting with this too
• 58:33
  because especially in Old Testament in the ancient
• 58:36
  Near East. Yes you had kings who ruled cities.
• 58:41
  And these kings across all of those cultures
• 58:47
  were viewed as not just human, but they were
• 58:51
  viewed as part human, part divine. And they were
• 58:56
  kind of these bridges between the divine world,
• 58:59
  the gods and humans. And so that's what allowed
• 59:03
  them to rule, because they could communicate
• 59:04
  with both. And actually we see this pretty explicitly
• 59:09
  in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where Gilgamesh is
• 59:13
  described as two -thirds divine, one -third human.
• 59:16
  And it's like, oh, where does that idea come
• 59:18
  from? And so in Mesopotamian cosmology, good
• 59:23
  old Mesopotamia, Many gods existed in triads.
• 59:29
  You have Anu, which represented heaven, Enlil,
• 59:32
  which represented the air, and Enki, which represented
• 59:34
  the water. And so two -thirds divine is an incomplete
• 59:39
  divinity, but allows him, Gilgamesh, to be the
• 59:42
  bridge. So he's not whole, which is the... A
• 59:49
  lot of ancient Nereus, they love numbers for
• 59:51
  symbols, and three represents completeness or
• 59:54
  wholeness, which is kind of cool why the Trinity
• 59:57
  is three. But anyway, side point. So with that,
• 1:00:01
  we see that same picture of three, but he's not
• 1:00:05
  three out of three God, he's two out of three.
• 1:00:10
  And so the part that he lacks is immortality.
• 1:00:14
  So this king, he... is able to enter the divine
• 1:00:21
  realm and commune with the gods, and he's able
• 1:00:23
  to be on earth and rule the humans. Yeah, so
• 1:00:26
  he has enough in his nature to be both enough
• 1:00:29
  divine and enough human to access both realms.
• 1:00:33
  Yes. And I think that's where, with Isaiah, I
• 1:00:37
  think that's why we can see kind of it... describing
• 1:00:40
  two different things. It's that blending of language
• 1:00:43
  where it's like, yeah, I'm talking about a human,
• 1:00:45
  talking about a city, Babylon, a real place.
• 1:00:48
  And I'm also talking about a supernatural place
• 1:00:50
  or supernatural beings. And we see that again
• 1:00:52
  in Ezekiel 28. We're talking about the king of
• 1:00:55
  Tyre and the prince of Tyre. And it's talking
• 1:00:57
  about the same thing but with two different beings.
• 1:01:00
  And it's like, yeah, because there's a link there.
• 1:01:04
  Yes, and it could also be... that the literary
• 1:01:07
  usage of this here is, and I don't know precisely
• 1:01:13
  if this is what it is, but I think this is, maybe
• 1:01:16
  this can reconcile some people bringing this
• 1:01:18
  together. Yeah, fair. But it's the idea that
• 1:01:21
  like, okay, what if we, in a literary sense,
• 1:01:24
  what if we read that idea from what you're saying,
• 1:01:28
  but go, okay, this is, essentially the idea similar
• 1:01:34
  to, that shale, the depths of shale, or what
• 1:01:39
  am I thinking of? What's the place that they
• 1:01:42
  go to? Tartarus. That Tartarus is made for the
• 1:01:46
  devil and his angels. That when that is mentioned,
• 1:01:50
  that that's not a place that we are supposed
• 1:01:52
  to go. Are you thinking of the Lake of Fire?
• 1:01:57
  That's the end place, but. Yeah. Well even, yeah.
• 1:02:02
  Oh yeah, yes. Because Tartarus, we don't go there.
• 1:02:05
  Correct, correct, sorry, yes. Yes, Lake of Fire.
• 1:02:09
  Yeah, so none of that stuff was like, it wasn't,
• 1:02:13
  we weren't supposed to go there. But in this
• 1:02:16
  sense, when we get the Isaiah passage, and then
• 1:02:20
  we also get the Ezekiel 28 passage, and we get
• 1:02:23
  this concept that maybe consider it this way
• 1:02:25
  in a literary form, it is, a narrative and a
• 1:02:30
  story all happening at once where it's saying
• 1:02:32
  like, what is going, what did happen to Satan
• 1:02:37
  will happen to you. It can be both things. So
• 1:02:42
  in a literary sense, maybe we are getting actual
• 1:02:46
  descriptors of what actually happened to Satan,
• 1:02:50
  past tense, and the Lord is relating it to what
• 1:02:55
  will happen to this natural leader, present tense.
• 1:02:58
  There is a possibility of that reading. And so
• 1:03:02
  that's why I would say I think we can consider
• 1:03:05
  that and that would put us in a place where it
• 1:03:09
  does happen before this moment. Or we can read
• 1:03:13
  it in the sense of this is a direct commentary
• 1:03:15
  on what did happen to the being and God is speaking
• 1:03:19
  past the human into the... ruler of that human
• 1:03:25
  in the moment, which I think is what you're suggesting.
• 1:03:28
  Possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think it's important
• 1:03:31
  to consider both, which is what we're talking
• 1:03:33
  about. Yeah. So there's a potential that God
• 1:03:37
  is speaking past the human ruler. Yes. And in
• 1:03:40
  the Isaiah instance, he's talking about the King
• 1:03:45
  of Babylon. Yes. But he's telling Them what they
• 1:03:51
  can say when something happens when something
• 1:03:54
  happens. Yes, and so it's it's this idea that
• 1:03:57
  like hey Maybe what he's saying is you can taunt
• 1:04:01
  him By telling him that what happened to the
• 1:04:05
  devil will happen to him Yeah, or who you're
• 1:04:08
  actually taunting Ephesians 6 is the ruler of
• 1:04:12
  the air in the moment. Yes, so It could be one
• 1:04:16
  or the other. Yes And that's an interesting idea.
• 1:04:21
  And part of me, it's like, again, going with
• 1:04:23
  consistency, how does it line up with the consistency
• 1:04:28
  of scripture and the character of God? Yeah.
• 1:04:30
  And it's like, well, it seems like it's probably
• 1:04:31
  the other. It could be. Because it's like, this
• 1:04:35
  is like Paul speaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The
• 1:04:37
  human right here in front of you, not the apostle.
• 1:04:39
  No, yeah, sure. And it's the idea of like, well,
• 1:04:43
  if we believe that scripture is true when it
• 1:04:46
  says, we do not battle against flesh and blood.
• 1:04:49
  It's like, okay, so that's not who we're fighting.
• 1:04:52
  But we see him calling out an actual human leader.
• 1:04:56
  So it's like, okay, so are we battling against
• 1:04:59
  flesh and blood? It's like, no, no, no, powers
• 1:05:01
  and principalities. But now, here's a natural
• 1:05:05
  thing that you can physically touch. And I'm
• 1:05:09
  speaking into a spiritual space through that.
• 1:05:12
  And I think that's consistent with the usage
• 1:05:15
  of poetic and prophetic language. It's these
• 1:05:19
  layers that go into everything. It's like, yeah,
• 1:05:22
  I'm saying this thing you can actually get the
• 1:05:24
  immediate gratification of. Same thing with the
• 1:05:27
  promise to Abraham. It's like, hey, this is what's
• 1:05:30
  going to happen, and now here's an immediate
• 1:05:32
  benefit to prove that I'm true to my word. And
• 1:05:36
  it's like, yeah, here's what's gonna happen,
• 1:05:38
  or maybe even here's what's happening. And here's
• 1:05:42
  an immediate thing you can touch to recognize
• 1:05:44
  what I'm saying. Well, and a witness to that
• 1:05:47
  is the beginning of what I read in Isaiah 14,
• 1:05:50
  12. It addresses them as, oh, day star. Yes.
• 1:05:56
  It addresses them as the spiritual being, not
• 1:06:01
  as the human ruler. Yeah. Which is the same thing
• 1:06:04
  we see in Ezekiel 28. Right. Where it shifts
• 1:06:07
  between We're talking to the king and then we're
• 1:06:10
  talking to the prince. Yeah, and one of them
• 1:06:13
  is human and one of them is not. One of them
• 1:06:14
  is a cherub. Yes. As he calls them. Who apparently
• 1:06:18
  walked on the mountain of God. In the garden.
• 1:06:22
  Yes. It's like, what? Yeah, the most interesting
• 1:06:26
  thing about that to me is considering what the
• 1:06:30
  garden looked like. Yeah. Which we did a whole
• 1:06:32
  episode on that. We did. So yeah, go back and
• 1:06:35
  watch that because that is a major thing to consider.
• 1:06:39
  It's like, yeah, if we read Ezekiel 28 and we
• 1:06:42
  go, okay, even if we go with the thing I just
• 1:06:47
  proposed, let's say Ezekiel 28 is talking about
• 1:06:50
  you're going to be like this guy. Well, this
• 1:06:53
  guy is a spiritual being that it says did what?
• 1:06:57
  It was a cherub guardian, a guardian cherub walking
• 1:07:01
  on the mountain of God in the Garden of Eden.
• 1:07:04
  Okay, so That's not a metaphor. That's who he's
• 1:07:08
  referring to. He's either talking to him in the
• 1:07:11
  moment, or he's talking to the guy and saying
• 1:07:16
  that you will be like this guardian cherub who
• 1:07:19
  once walked on the mountain of God. Either way,
• 1:07:23
  it's a descriptor of what happened in the garden.
• 1:07:26
  Which is, I don't know how we read that and go,
• 1:07:30
  oh, they're just making up stories. Because that
• 1:07:33
  would be the only explanation. The only explanation
• 1:07:36
  of the detail of an Ezekiel 28 is that someone
• 1:07:39
  is just making up a story of like it's a parable.
• 1:07:43
  Like there's farmers in the field. That's not
• 1:07:46
  what's happening. But even in that instance,
• 1:07:48
  the parable, there are actually farmers in the
• 1:07:50
  field who sow seeds. Like that's a real thing
• 1:07:52
  that happens. Well, I mean, that's interesting
• 1:07:54
  even with looking at the ministry of Jesus. He
• 1:07:59
  was known for telling parables. He was. But he
• 1:08:01
  was also known for not telling parables too.
• 1:08:03
  Also that. And we see both things. Yes. And the
• 1:08:06
  reason I say it that way is because he tells
• 1:08:09
  a story about Lazarus and Sheol, Lazarus, which
• 1:08:13
  is not the one he raised from the dead, a different
• 1:08:14
  Lazarus. Correct. In The Rich Man. And it's not
• 1:08:17
  a parable. No. So it's like, wait, then what's
• 1:08:21
  he talking about? He's talking about real things.
• 1:08:23
  Yes. And because even when he says, he's like,
• 1:08:26
  there's no preface. It's like, this is a parable,
• 1:08:28
  you know, like, but it's like none of that. Yeah.
• 1:08:30
  He's saying, oh, this is a real thing. Yeah.
• 1:08:33
  Yeah, because a parable is like, simply put,
• 1:08:36
  a parable is a story alongside reality. Yes.
• 1:08:41
  So that's literally what the word breaks down
• 1:08:45
  to mean. So what happens is Jesus is literally
• 1:08:49
  doing something in the moment. He's preaching
• 1:08:51
  that the kingdom of God is here and it's now
• 1:08:54
  and it's right in front of you. Yeah. And the
• 1:08:57
  people are going. Wait, what's going on? And
• 1:08:59
  he goes, it's kind of like this, right? And then
• 1:09:04
  he goes into a parable. And then what do the
• 1:09:07
  disciples do? Especially like Matthew 13 is a
• 1:09:10
  great example. Yeah, because the disciples go,
• 1:09:13
  well like the wheat and the weeds, right? And
• 1:09:18
  he explains like the wheat, the farmer plants
• 1:09:23
  the wheat and the next day someone came through
• 1:09:27
  the night and put weeds in, and then they woke
• 1:09:30
  up, and the workers are like, huh, what's going
• 1:09:33
  on? Did you also plant weeds? And he was like,
• 1:09:37
  no, I just planted wheat. He's like, weird, do
• 1:09:40
  you want us to go get the weeds out? No, because
• 1:09:44
  you'll take the wheat up. He's like, all right,
• 1:09:46
  so just leave it, let it grow together, and at
• 1:09:48
  the harvest we'll sort it out. And then after
• 1:09:51
  that, in Matthew 13, the disciples go, hey, by
• 1:09:55
  the way, What's going on with the wheat and the
• 1:09:58
  weeds? And Jesus goes, oh yeah, okay, so the
• 1:10:03
  wheat are the sons of, are the good guys. The
• 1:10:09
  wheat are the ones who follow after God. And
• 1:10:13
  then the wheat are the sons of the evil one.
• 1:10:18
  Yeah, the weeds are the sons of the evil one.
• 1:10:20
  And the person who sows the weeds is the evil
• 1:10:24
  one, Satan himself. and the workers are you guys,
• 1:10:29
  and then the reapers who will come and reap are
• 1:10:32
  the angels, and then the farmer is God. And they're
• 1:10:37
  like, oh. So in that way, that is consistent
• 1:10:47
  throughout the Bible. As you look at the Old
• 1:10:50
  Testament prophets and you see these visions
• 1:10:52
  of heaven and what happens is they go, or the
• 1:10:56
  Lord says something and he says something in
• 1:10:59
  a very descriptive manner, he's not just making
• 1:11:02
  up a story, he's referring to something. So that
• 1:11:08
  reference is not something we can just throw
• 1:11:10
  away, it's something we should consider that
• 1:11:14
  shapes the rest of what's happening. And so with
• 1:11:20
  that being said, I want to jump. Love jumping
• 1:11:25
  those jump to Genesis 3 Do you pull it one and
• 1:11:34
  14 specifically But yeah, what's yeah, let's
• 1:11:38
  Genesis 3 1 you've already mentioned, but it's
• 1:11:40
  worth saying again Says now the serpent was more
• 1:11:44
  crafty than any other beast of the field the
• 1:11:46
  Lord had made mmm But then if we jump to verse
• 1:11:50
  14 mention that you did yeah And we jump to verse
• 1:11:54
  14 here. It says, this is after he has deceived
• 1:11:59
  the man and the woman. The Lord God said to the
• 1:12:03
  serpent, because you have done this, cursed are
• 1:12:06
  you above all livestock and above all beasts
• 1:12:09
  of the field, on your belly you shall go and
• 1:12:12
  dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
• 1:12:15
  So let's just pause there. Cause we actually
• 1:12:18
  talked about something like more on the front
• 1:12:19
  end of this section, which was the It doesn't
• 1:12:24
  say that, yeah, in the beginning, he was evil.
• 1:12:27
  Oh, right. Or in Genesis 3, by the way, there's
• 1:12:30
  this really evil guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This
• 1:12:31
  really evil being, the serpent, who's just in
• 1:12:34
  the garden now. Yeah, yeah. It's like, wait,
• 1:12:35
  no, we don't get that. We just say he's crafty.
• 1:12:38
  Sure. He's a lawyer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then
• 1:12:42
  he does something, and God's response is, because
• 1:12:45
  you've done that. You know what I mean? He's
• 1:12:49
  like hey, you're gonna get cursed because you
• 1:12:51
  did that He doesn't say like hey, you're already
• 1:12:54
  cursed and here's another one or you're evil
• 1:12:56
  and now here's a curse Yeah, no because of your
• 1:12:59
  actions right now. You're getting a curse sure
• 1:13:02
  yeah, and it's like okay, so that's like happening
• 1:13:06
  then yeah, yeah It's like okay, so what's his
• 1:13:10
  curse? Yeah, it's like well, okay, so I mean
• 1:13:15
  Helps that he's cursed above all livestock. It's
• 1:13:19
  like okay, so like you are the worst of the worst
• 1:13:22
  But it says and the worst of the best that's
• 1:13:28
  true But so I'll let I'm gonna ask this question
• 1:13:35
  to answer this other questions about to pop up
• 1:13:38
  Okay, and the question I'm gonna ask okay to
• 1:13:41
  this is so where did the serpent go? Because
• 1:13:44
  we know with the man and the woman, Adam and
• 1:13:46
  Eve, they got cast out of the garden. They got
• 1:13:48
  kicked out of the garden. And there is cherubs
• 1:13:51
  surrounding it, set up at the opening. The gates.
• 1:13:57
  But it doesn't say anything more about the serpent
• 1:13:59
  after his curse. That's true. It stops talking
• 1:14:02
  about him. And so my question is, where did he
• 1:14:04
  go? Did he stay in the garden? Did he get kicked
• 1:14:07
  out with them? Good question. Well, we actually
• 1:14:11
  have a little bit of insight into here. Okay,
• 1:14:13
  and so let's get into here get into here A little
• 1:14:20
  bit of insight into here. I don't know why I
• 1:14:23
  talk this way. I like it Makes it more interesting
• 1:14:30
  So there's one phrase in particular, okay, and
• 1:14:35
  it's dust you shall eat This has been, I make
• 1:14:40
  fun of Answers in Genesis a lot sometimes. You
• 1:14:42
  make fun of what? The Ministry Answers in Genesis.
• 1:14:46
  Ministry Answers in Genesis. Answers in Genesis.
• 1:14:49
  Answers in Genesis. What is this? You don't know
• 1:14:52
  this with Ken Ham? No. You know what that is.
• 1:14:56
  They're the ones who have like the arc in Kentucky.
• 1:14:58
  I know who Ken Ham is. Yeah, that's his ministry,
• 1:15:00
  Answers in Genesis. Got it, okay. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:02
  Okay. You also said it so fast, I didn't even
• 1:15:05
  know what you said. I guess I'm just so used
• 1:15:07
  to everyone knowing what it is. That's fair.
• 1:15:10
  Sorry to assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've picked
• 1:15:13
  on them a few times. And one of them is - Well,
• 1:15:17
  they make a lot of glaring declarations. They
• 1:15:19
  do. They kind of leave themselves open to some
• 1:15:24
  pokes. And so with this one, they do a whole
• 1:15:28
  thing about like, oh, snakes actually do eat
• 1:15:31
  dirt and all this and that, but it's like, Not
• 1:15:33
  really like they don't eat dirt They probably
• 1:15:38
  get a little in their mouth they talk like oh
• 1:15:40
  when they're like, you know taste and stuff with
• 1:15:42
  their tongue Yeah Like they get a little bit
• 1:15:45
  of dirt. So like yeah, they're kind of like eating
• 1:15:46
  it. It's like you're really stretching that Yeah,
• 1:15:48
  that's not you're really stretching that point
• 1:15:50
  intentionally eating dirt. No So for me, it's
• 1:15:53
  like well, how about we just look into the culture
• 1:15:55
  in the language? Yes, like what do they think
• 1:15:57
  that met? Yeah, let's do it. And so that phrase
• 1:16:01
  is actually a Hebrew idiom that's tied to defeat
• 1:16:05
  and sheol. Okay, interesting. And it's like,
• 1:16:10
  okay, well, Paul, where do you get that from?
• 1:16:11
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, well, actually,
• 1:16:13
  we see this in a lot of different places throughout
• 1:16:15
  scripture, and I'm gonna try to pull up a few
• 1:16:19
  of them quickly. Perfect. You can tell them to
• 1:16:23
  me and I'll do it. Oh, that'd be awesome, actually.
• 1:16:25
  You're much quicker, probably. So the first one,
• 1:16:28
  this is in the category of the idea of defeat.
• 1:16:30
  So Micah 717. Micah. Way back there. Yeah, he's
• 1:16:36
  one of the miner guys. Not like in the coal mines.
• 1:16:42
  So I'll start in 16. The nation shall see and
• 1:16:46
  be ashamed of all their might. They shall lay
• 1:16:48
  their hands on their mouths. Their ears shall
• 1:16:51
  be deaf. They shall lick the dust like a serpent,
• 1:16:56
  like the crawling things of the earth. Sounds
• 1:16:59
  like pretty direct high end. Yeah. And then let's
• 1:17:03
  jump in. It's also interesting that it says,
• 1:17:04
  their ears shall be deaf. Yeah. Which what does
• 1:17:07
  Jesus say in Matthew 13? Those who have ears
• 1:17:10
  to hear, let them hear. Yeah. He says it over
• 1:17:13
  and over again. That's so true. Yeah. I never
• 1:17:15
  picked that up. That's really good. Thanks. I
• 1:17:16
  like that. I didn't write it. Isaiah 49, 23.
• 1:17:20
  Okay. But you quoted it well. That's true. Thanks.
• 1:17:26
  I'll take that. I love it. 4923. Yes. Kings shall
• 1:17:33
  be your foster fathers and their queens your
• 1:17:37
  nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground
• 1:17:40
  they shall bow down to you and lick the dust
• 1:17:43
  of your feet. So again, like in the next one
• 1:17:48
  is Psalm 72 9. So it's like this very clear picture.
• 1:17:52
  And even Micah ties it directly back to the garden
• 1:17:55
  in Genesis 3. And it's the idea of like, yeah,
• 1:17:58
  like defeat. You're laid low. You're down below
• 1:18:01
  everyone else. Psalm 72, 9, may desert tribes
• 1:18:05
  bow down before him and his enemies lick the
• 1:18:08
  dust. Yeah. Wow. So it's like, OK, we're seeing
• 1:18:12
  that. I got a few more for you on the Sheol side.
• 1:18:15
  Let's do it. So like we see this idea. It's like
• 1:18:17
  it's tied to this. This idiom he's used to be
• 1:18:19
  like, you are so below everybody. You have to
• 1:18:22
  literally lick their dirt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:18:25
  Genesis 3 19. Okay. We're not even going that
• 1:18:29
  far out of Genesis here. Out of when it was said
• 1:18:33
  that he shall eat dirt. Genesis 3 19. By the
• 1:18:37
  sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you
• 1:18:40
  return to the ground. For out of it you are taken
• 1:18:43
  for you are dust and to dust you shall return.
• 1:18:47
  And then jump into Psalm 22, 15. So it's like
• 1:18:52
  this idea, it's like, okay, so you came from
• 1:18:54
  dust and you're gonna return to dust. And it's
• 1:18:58
  like, yeah, that's death. That's what he's talking
• 1:19:01
  about. Yeah, Psalm 22, 15. My strength is dried
• 1:19:05
  up like a potsherd and my tongue sticks to my
• 1:19:09
  jaw. You lay me in the dust of death. And then
• 1:19:14
  Job 7, 21. So there we get it even a clearer
• 1:19:18
  picture of it the dust of death. It's like always
• 1:19:21
  tying it directly to death. Yeah Job 721 yes,
• 1:19:28
  why do you not pardon my transgression and take
• 1:19:31
  away my iniquity for now? I shall lie in the
• 1:19:34
  earth. You will seek me, but I shall not be There
• 1:19:40
  we are so it's like when we see this The way
• 1:19:45
  this phrase, you shall eat dust. It's tied to
• 1:19:48
  these concepts of you are below everything, you
• 1:19:52
  are defeated. You are humbled below everybody
• 1:19:55
  else. But also, you are to die. And death is
• 1:20:01
  sheol. That's the underworld. So he's saying
• 1:20:04
  you are subject to sheol and you're subject to
• 1:20:07
  defeat. There's no redemption for you. Where
• 1:20:12
  does the serpent go? He goes to Sheol. He dies.
• 1:20:16
  He dies. Yes. And it's like, oh, okay, that's
• 1:20:20
  crazy. Yeah, considering that, because the curse
• 1:20:26
  upon the man and the woman are that their job
• 1:20:30
  here on earth will continue, but it will be much,
• 1:20:33
  much harder. Yes. But to the serpent, he will
• 1:20:37
  be dead. Yeah. Yes. You will die. Like you are
• 1:20:43
  done. Yes. Yeah. But the serpent is not a biological
• 1:20:49
  snake. Right. The serpent is a guardian cherub.
• 1:20:54
  Correct. According to Ezekiel 28. Yes. And...
• 1:20:58
  I think we've talked about this in an episode
• 1:21:00
  as well, the nakash, that word, which is the
• 1:21:03
  word we see there for serpent. Is that Psalm
• 1:21:05
  82? Uh, this is Genesis 3. Okay. No, no, no.
• 1:21:09
  I'm talking about, oh, the Nikash in Genesis
• 1:21:12
  3. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That word serpent
• 1:21:14
  is kind of like, um, it's like triple entendre.
• 1:21:17
  Right. To refer to many different things. Yes.
• 1:21:20
  Um, but it points to the idea of this isn't a
• 1:21:23
  snake. Right. So, I mean, that helps because
• 1:21:29
  the idea that dust is death and that you... Meaning,
• 1:21:38
  if we go, alright, the serpent is not an eternal
• 1:21:43
  being, but instead has somehow taken the form
• 1:21:48
  of a biological snake, then that eternal being
• 1:21:54
  now is trapped in the snake and forced to roam
• 1:21:58
  the earth. So now we have to reconcile with the
• 1:22:02
  fact that Satan is actually just roaming the
• 1:22:04
  earth in a biological snake slither Yeah, if
• 1:22:07
  we're gonna follow that out, right, you know,
• 1:22:09
  that's true. Yeah, that's true But if we're not
• 1:22:11
  gonna follow that out because the rest of scripture
• 1:22:13
  talks about the ancient serpent. Yeah the the
• 1:22:17
  Satan That's Revelation 12. So if we see that,
• 1:22:23
  and then we look at Ezekiel 28, we look at Isaiah
• 1:22:26
  14, we look at all of these different passages
• 1:22:28
  that refer to the devil himself, then, well,
• 1:22:35
  even when we look at the temptation of Jesus,
• 1:22:37
  it's like, well, that wasn't a biological snake
• 1:22:40
  in the wilderness being like. Hey, Jesus. Spout
• 1:22:44
  sound to me. What? I'm just going to step on
• 1:22:48
  your head. Yeah, exactly. Like, that's not what's
• 1:22:52
  happening. So I think we have some understanding
• 1:22:55
  that, like, OK, yeah, this being took on the
• 1:22:58
  form of a snake and then spoke. It's like, all
• 1:23:02
  right, you're making a lot of leaps, right? And
• 1:23:05
  you're making a lot of leaps that don't have
• 1:23:06
  logical conclusion. Yes. Because if that's the
• 1:23:10
  leap you're going to make, then at least be consistent
• 1:23:13
  with it. That if that's your leap, then the consistency
• 1:23:16
  of that leap means that now either all snakes
• 1:23:21
  now have to live on the ground, but then where
• 1:23:23
  does Satan go? It still doesn't answer the question
• 1:23:25
  of where does Satan go. So that's one of those
• 1:23:28
  things where it's like, all right, well, Adam
• 1:23:31
  and Eve have to continue what they're doing,
• 1:23:33
  but now it's gonna be hard for them. The Satan,
• 1:23:39
  the ancient serpent, now is cast down. Yes. Which
• 1:23:46
  is to dust. Correct. Right? But the serpent is
• 1:23:50
  not made from dust. Right. Yeah. Interesting,
• 1:23:55
  Paul. But it's kind of these like, let's just
• 1:23:57
  take it from a level of like fallen -ness. Yes,
• 1:24:01
  okay. And so it's like, okay, so we see the serpent
• 1:24:04
  falling in Genesis 3. Mm -hmm. we see the dragon
• 1:24:07
  falling in Revelation 12. Yes. These are two
• 1:24:11
  very distinct and very separated events. Yes.
• 1:24:14
  So it's like, okay, so are there two falls? Interesting.
• 1:24:19
  How can the same being fall twice? Well, that's
• 1:24:21
  an interesting question. It is an interesting
• 1:24:23
  question. But then, I'm actually going to skip
• 1:24:28
  that one for today, but I was like, we could
• 1:24:31
  go a whole different direction. Is this a part
• 1:24:32
  two? This is probably a part two at some point.
• 1:24:37
  But so jumping back to revelation 12 actually
• 1:24:40
  before we do that Yes before we do that let's
• 1:24:48
  go to job Okay, and so job is kind of I feel
• 1:24:52
  like a touchy one for a lot of people should
• 1:24:53
  we pause and pick up? What do you mean? The should
• 1:24:57
  this be a part two? And I feel like we're close
• 1:25:01
  to like an actual conclusion for this part But
• 1:25:05
  we will definitely continue this conversation.
• 1:25:07
  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just the beginning of Jobe.
• 1:25:10
  Okay, Jobe 1. Yeah, Jobe 1. Let's see, actually
• 1:25:15
  not Jobe 1, 1. Jobe 1, 1. In the beginning, Jobe.
• 1:25:20
  In the beginning, Jobe was a man with lots of
• 1:25:23
  stuff. That's a summary by Paul. And he lived
• 1:25:28
  in... Job, I almost said Genesis, Job 1 starting
• 1:25:34
  in verse 6. Now there was a day when the sons
• 1:25:38
  of God came to present themselves before the
• 1:25:40
  Lord, and Satan also came among them. Okay. Pause.
• 1:25:48
  We don't get very far. But it's like, okay, pause.
• 1:25:52
  So we can look at that in the mod norm traditional
• 1:25:56
  view. Which is just, yeah, apparently Satan had
• 1:26:00
  some access to Go present himself before Yahweh.
• 1:26:04
  Yes. What? Right. I thought evil couldn't be
• 1:26:08
  in the presence of the Lord. Oh, OK. I see what
• 1:26:10
  you're saying. Yes. So explain that to me. Sure.
• 1:26:13
  How are both these things true? Yeah. Well, they're
• 1:26:16
  probably not. And so that jumps into the idea.
• 1:26:21
  And I mean, for the sake of how long we've been
• 1:26:23
  on this episode already, I'm just going to say
• 1:26:25
  it quick. But it's like we get this view. We're
• 1:26:29
  in here when we look at the Hebrew we see hasatan
• 1:26:31
  which we've mentioned a few times we have yeah
• 1:26:33
  Which is the definite article to the so it's
• 1:26:35
  somewhat the Satan. Yes and so that doesn't refer
• 1:26:39
  to a It's not a proper pronoun referring to a
• 1:26:42
  specific individual. Yeah, but it's referring
• 1:26:45
  to a thing that holds a title Yeah, and so it's
• 1:26:47
  like what is the Satan the accuser? It's like
• 1:26:51
  well, he's like a he's he's just that he's an
• 1:26:53
  accuser a little attorney Yeah over here just
• 1:26:56
  being like yeah, this person did a lot of bad
• 1:26:58
  stuff And that's exactly what we see happen in
• 1:27:01
  this part in Job, in chapter one, is he presents
• 1:27:04
  himself and God says, hey, Job is pretty good.
• 1:27:06
  He's a pretty good guy. He's like, hmm, doubt.
• 1:27:11
  That's his job. That is his job. He's accusing
• 1:27:15
  the righteous. Yes. Okay, so that is a job title
• 1:27:19
  in the counsel of God. Are you tying that into
• 1:27:24
  Genesis 3? potentially Well, so let's hold let's
• 1:27:29
  hold that thought okay, and now I want to go
• 1:27:32
  back to Revelation 12 This is not a presentation
• 1:27:36
  of theology. This is a presentation of consider
• 1:27:39
  this that's exactly right Yes, because it's like
• 1:27:42
  here are these verses in scripture. How do we
• 1:27:43
  keep these consistent with one another and it's
• 1:27:45
  also like Hey, there's more there than maybe
• 1:27:48
  you've read in that one verse that you randomly
• 1:27:51
  open your Bible to. Yeah. Well, and also it's
• 1:27:53
  the idea of these thoughts where like, oh yeah,
• 1:27:56
  Satan fell before the creation of the earth and
• 1:27:58
  then boom, boom, boom, boom, blam, who we are.
• 1:28:01
  And it's like, well, actually it doesn't say
• 1:28:02
  that. Right. So where do we get that idea from?
• 1:28:05
  Yeah, exactly. It actually doesn't say that at
• 1:28:08
  all. So what does it say? No. Yeah. And I think.
• 1:28:12
  Yeah. An actual traditional traditional view
• 1:28:15
  not a modern traditional view that does kind
• 1:28:19
  of makes make a lot of sense is that That Satan
• 1:28:25
  fell within the first hundred years of creation.
• 1:28:28
  Mm -hmm. It does make a lot of sense and doesn't
• 1:28:31
  at the same time. Yeah, because That would that
• 1:28:35
  would force a consistency of time frame But where
• 1:28:40
  people get that from which I find interesting
• 1:28:42
  is that we start learning how old Adam is after
• 1:28:47
  he's out of the garden. And we learn how old
• 1:28:52
  Adam is based on the birth of Seth. So we get
• 1:28:57
  that information and we go, okay, from the point
• 1:29:01
  of creation until the birth of Seth, I think
• 1:29:04
  is 120 years, which is an interesting number.
• 1:29:08
  Yes, it is. And so people go, all right, it's
• 1:29:12
  roughly 100 years from the beginning of creation.
• 1:29:17
  Somewhere in that time frame, Satan fell. Which
• 1:29:19
  is funny because, well, before the fall, man
• 1:29:23
  didn't die. Correct. So our biological clock
• 1:29:26
  hadn't even started. Right. So it would have
• 1:29:28
  to be retroactive from the birth of Seth. Yeah.
• 1:29:33
  It's like, so the fall happened. Like the birth
• 1:29:34
  of Seth was 120 years after the fall or after
• 1:29:38
  Adam's creation. We don't actually know that.
• 1:29:40
  Well, it also means that the literal time in
• 1:29:44
  the garden was actually 100 years. It was a century.
• 1:29:47
  Yeah. Which is like, all right, but I feel like
• 1:29:55
  people that do believe that, which I may or may
• 1:29:58
  not be one of them. would also hold consistent
• 1:30:03
  with a literal thousand year reign of Christ.
• 1:30:06
  Like there's a lot of literalists in numbers
• 1:30:08
  and things like that. So like, yeah, I get that.
• 1:30:12
  Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. Well, so, yes, hold
• 1:30:16
  that. There's a lot in there. Yeah, I know. But
• 1:30:20
  yeah, so Revelation 12 in verse eight. Again,
• 1:30:26
  we're talking about the dragon here. Yes, this
• 1:30:28
  is the dragon and the angels fought back. Okay
• 1:30:30
  And it says in verse 8 it says but he was defeated
• 1:30:34
  and there was no longer any place for them in
• 1:30:37
  heaven. Hmm Okay Hmm But it so we see in Job
• 1:30:46
  it's like we get this image of this is a this
• 1:30:48
  is this guy's nine to five It's to accuse the
• 1:30:52
  righteous sure and now we see in Revelation.
• 1:30:54
  It's like there was a place for him, but now
• 1:30:56
  there's no longer a place for him. Okay, so I'm
• 1:31:00
  gonna, so here's the thing. Yeah. If, that means
• 1:31:05
  that if Satan falls either between Genesis 1
• 1:31:10
  -1 and Genesis 1 -2, which is assuming that Genesis
• 1:31:13
  1 -1 is the creation of all things, which I don't
• 1:31:17
  find consistent, or is created and falls before
• 1:31:23
  Genesis 1 -1, which I would probably lean more
• 1:31:27
  that way, if that's where we're at. Well, that's
• 1:31:29
  even the one verse that I didn't bring up, which
• 1:31:31
  is, or chapter, which is Psalm 74, which we'll
• 1:31:35
  talk about it in the future. Okay. Maybe we should
• 1:31:37
  lead off an episode with that. We definitely
• 1:31:39
  could. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Write that down.
• 1:31:42
  But what that means is, in what can... be consistent
• 1:31:48
  with this, and I'm presenting another side to
• 1:31:51
  everything you're presenting as you go through
• 1:31:53
  it. Well, because my thoughts right now are pretty
• 1:31:56
  nuanced, I think, still, without any definiteness.
• 1:31:59
  Definitiveness. Yeah, but I think that it's consistent
• 1:32:04
  as they listen through. Because of the other
• 1:32:08
  side that I'm bringing up, it's like it keeps
• 1:32:11
  this in one line. If in Revelation 12 we see
• 1:32:17
  the fall of Satan and his angels as they no longer
• 1:32:21
  have a place in heaven, but then in Job 12, or
• 1:32:24
  Job 1, we see the Satan or the office of the
• 1:32:31
  accuser, someone from the office of the accuser,
• 1:32:34
  comes into the council of the sons of God. that
• 1:32:39
  would be inconsistent with Revelation 12, which
• 1:32:43
  means that the fall would have to happen after
• 1:32:45
  death or the accuser as an office still exists
• 1:32:54
  in heaven and there are angels or beings that
• 1:32:59
  are still functioning in that office, but the
• 1:33:04
  Satan or the ancient serpent and his angels are
• 1:33:10
  no longer in heaven. But the job of an accuser
• 1:33:15
  is still consistent with the job title that exists
• 1:33:19
  in heaven currently. Do you see what I'm saying?
• 1:33:22
  Does that make sense? Well, so it does. And so
• 1:33:25
  this is the thing that I guess where my thoughts
• 1:33:28
  have been led because of going through this is
• 1:33:31
  one, it makes me challenge the question, or the
• 1:33:36
  statement, that there was only one fall. And
• 1:33:41
  it's like, okay, well actually, in these moments
• 1:33:46
  and when they happened, there's evidence to point
• 1:33:50
  us to this isn't just one thing that happened
• 1:33:53
  one time. This is a thing that seems to have
• 1:33:56
  happened multiple times. And this isn't even
• 1:33:58
  bringing up Genesis 6 yet, where we see another
• 1:34:01
  potential fall. Yeah, but that one doesn't take
• 1:34:04
  place in the heavens Correct, but it does take
• 1:34:08
  place with heavenly beings. It does and so it's
• 1:34:10
  like, okay. So here are these moments where you
• 1:34:12
  see these Beings, I mean even again with like
• 1:34:15
  the Deuteronomy 32 takes place in the heavens,
• 1:34:17
  but not necessarily in heaven, right? Yeah, but
• 1:34:20
  it's like I guess I'm referring to like these
• 1:34:21
  beings sure So it's like but we also see with
• 1:34:24
  the in Deuteronomy 32 Yeah, the the sons of God
• 1:34:28
  that he places over the nations Yeah and then
• 1:34:30
  we see later in Psalms where they are ruling
• 1:34:33
  unrighteously. Yeah. Well, he didn't make them
• 1:34:36
  unrighteous. Sure. He put good beings, beings
• 1:34:39
  that were obedient to him. Yeah. And then they
• 1:34:42
  turned. That didn't happen before the fall, clearly.
• 1:34:46
  Yeah, yeah. Because the nations didn't exist
• 1:34:48
  yet. Yeah. So it's like we're seeing these these
• 1:34:51
  points of like several things happen. This wasn't
• 1:34:54
  a one time event. Sure. But there were these
• 1:34:57
  multiple events where things turned away from
• 1:35:00
  the Lord. beings turned away from the Lord. And
• 1:35:03
  that shouldn't be surprising, because we do that
• 1:35:04
  all the time too. That's true. It's like, why
• 1:35:07
  wouldn't it be consistent with the other creation?
• 1:35:12
  But then the other thing it makes me question,
• 1:35:15
  and it's specifically because of the book of
• 1:35:17
  Job, is there's a big thing where, I think this
• 1:35:23
  is in the New Testament, it says that the Lord
• 1:35:25
  does not tempt anyone to sin. Okay, and I know
• 1:35:29
  I'm misquoting that but yes, but it's like I
• 1:35:32
  I know I am That's the idea of it You could say
• 1:35:36
  right for me But it's the idea like he he tests
• 1:35:42
  people he tests their loyalty sure and what do
• 1:35:45
  we see in Job? Nothing in Job tempts him to sin,
• 1:35:50
  but it tests is he loyal to Yahweh? Yeah, that's
• 1:35:53
  a good point and who's carrying that out is The
• 1:35:57
  Satan. It's the accuser who's carrying it out.
• 1:36:00
  But if Satan, as we know him from the New Testament,
• 1:36:03
  the evil bad guy, wouldn't he tempt him to sin?
• 1:36:07
  Sure. Wouldn't that be his approach? Because
• 1:36:10
  that's what he does. He deceives us. We don't
• 1:36:14
  necessarily see that in the temptation of Jesus,
• 1:36:16
  though. Well, we see that temptation to sin.
• 1:36:21
  test the loyalty to God. Oh, I see what you're
• 1:36:24
  saying. You see what I mean? But not necessarily
• 1:36:26
  to sin. In the way that you're referring to it.
• 1:36:30
  Yeah. And this, it's actually a bit of a nuanced
• 1:36:33
  conversation as well. Sure. Testing versus tempting.
• 1:36:36
  Yes. But yeah, so essentially what I'm saying
• 1:36:40
  in overall, to kind of wrap this up a little
• 1:36:41
  bit, try to put a really nasty bow on it. This
• 1:36:46
  bow is way out of whack. Yes. is I think we're
• 1:36:51
  potentially seeing a lot of different things
• 1:36:53
  happening. One, we're seeing actual evil beings,
• 1:36:58
  beings that are disobedient to Yahweh, and we're
• 1:37:01
  seeing them being cast out. But we're also seeing
• 1:37:05
  beings that no longer have a job that's worth
• 1:37:09
  doing. And I think that's even this idea that
• 1:37:12
  in a way that we see where because of the cross,
• 1:37:16
  because of Jesus' death and resurrection, there's
• 1:37:19
  no need for an accuser. Because all accusations
• 1:37:23
  are rendered meaningless. Because of the sacrifice
• 1:37:28
  of Christ. So why is there no longer a need to
• 1:37:33
  accuse the righteous day and night? Because now
• 1:37:36
  the righteous are covered in the blood of the
• 1:37:40
  Lamb. So your accusations have no bearing. Yes.
• 1:37:46
  I see what you mean. Yeah, I see what you mean.
• 1:37:49
  So it's kind of like opening this up to like,
• 1:37:50
  well, when did Satan fall? It's like, what are
• 1:37:52
  we talking about? Yeah. Because in a way it's
• 1:37:55
  like, well, potentially Satan, in quotation marks,
• 1:37:59
  could have fallen many times. We see different
• 1:38:02
  events where things have cast out of heaven.
• 1:38:04
  Sure. But we also see at the rendering of the
• 1:38:07
  cross that the need for someone to accuse the
• 1:38:11
  righteous isn't necessary anymore. Your job is
• 1:38:15
  obsolete. Yeah, I see what you're saying, because
• 1:38:19
  even looking at Abraham, who righteousness was
• 1:38:24
  counted to Abraham, is what Genesis says. How
• 1:38:29
  was it counted to Abraham? Probably in the way
• 1:38:32
  of Job. A man also from us. That's true. Which
• 1:38:38
  is interesting. Yeah, and I get what you're saying,
• 1:38:42
  but I think I think maybe the main takeaway from
• 1:38:46
  this episode at the moment is the idea that there's
• 1:38:50
  a lot more going on and these like the tying
• 1:38:56
  in of all of this stuff creates the opportunity
• 1:39:00
  for maybe there are other things going on than
• 1:39:04
  we assume, and every time the Bible says Satan
• 1:39:06
  or the evil one, it may not be referring to the
• 1:39:09
  exact same person. Correct. Unless it literally
• 1:39:12
  says that it is, which is why I think it does
• 1:39:16
  literally say that it is. So in Revelation 12,
• 1:39:19
  I think it's specifically talking about... It's
• 1:39:23
  bringing up, it's tying all these things together.
• 1:39:26
  Yeah, it's trying to go back and say, this is
• 1:39:29
  the same person. Potentially. Oh, I don't mean
• 1:39:34
  in Job. No, no, I know in Revelation. Yeah, in
• 1:39:37
  Revelation it's saying the Satan, the ancient
• 1:39:40
  serpent, the devil, tying all this into one being.
• 1:39:44
  You're saying that may not be happening. That's
• 1:39:47
  something to talk about too, even like what's
• 1:39:48
  John's intent there. Yeah, I see. Okay. Yeah.
• 1:39:52
  I like this. It's kind of fun, but I feel like
• 1:39:55
  it kind of opens up this view of something that
• 1:39:57
  we haven't questioned a lot. Yeah. Wait, no,
• 1:40:00
  let's question that thought. It questions two
• 1:40:04
  main things, is what is evil and what is bad,
• 1:40:09
  in our view. And again, going back to Job, that's
• 1:40:12
  where the thing where, when he's monologuing
• 1:40:15
  to Job, he brings up things that cause destruction
• 1:40:19
  on the earth, that cause struggling and suffering.
• 1:40:22
  But he's not saying that they're evil. I'm specifically
• 1:40:26
  referring to Leviathan. The other one, I can't
• 1:40:30
  even think of his name right now, Behemoth. Yes.
• 1:40:32
  And it's like, these are these chaos monsters.
• 1:40:34
  Yeah. But God doesn't say they're evil. Sure.
• 1:40:36
  He said they're actually part of my plan. Yeah.
• 1:40:40
  Yeah. You know what I mean? So, I'm gonna wrap
• 1:40:43
  it up with this. Yeah, please. And then we gotta
• 1:40:44
  keep, we gotta get into this in a different way,
• 1:40:48
  on a different episode, and probably multiple
• 1:40:50
  episodes. And the funny thing is this whole conversation
• 1:40:52
  started with stars. Yes. And it's still on there.
• 1:40:57
  So... When did Satan fall? And I think the answer
• 1:41:01
  from this episode is, which Satan? Three, two,
• 1:41:05
  one. You beeped yourself. So you'll have to beep
• 1:41:26
  it. I love it!