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Melissa Sundermann: Run Your Own Bold Race · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or douse along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Dr Melissa Sunderman.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: She is a double board certified physician in internal medicine and lifestyle medicine and has been practicing for over 20 years.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: She also has trained in integrative medicine through the University of Michigan and has completed a professional training program in mind body medicine through the center of mind body medicine based in Washington DC.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Welcome, melissa.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Lee.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: I am so happy to be here today.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna jump into being bold, and I would love to hear your definition of bold.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: So when I think of bold, you know I automatically go to when I'm like writing an email and something I want to highlight, right, and I make bold it so it stands out.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: And when I think of being bold, I think of standing out to myself, for myself, and that means showing up authentically and unapologetically and it's really putting myself out to the world and out to my world.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: And what I've learned about showing up authentically, unapologetically is it requires vulnerability and it requires getting out of your comfort zone and it requires self acceptance and self compassion and self love.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's really what bold means to me.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: That's an excellent definition.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Some of those pieces are hard to do.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I'll just say from my own experience maybe everyone listening thinks all that's a piece of cake, but I doubt it yeah.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's easy at all, yeah yeah, being bold is easy.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I think that's something that people learn along the way, or they learn the continuum of boldness.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: You can be bold in a quiet way, you don't have to shout about it.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: But I think some of the things that you talked about by being authentically yourself, which we see a lot and you know having self compassion, having self love those things I don't know.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: In my experience, they get better over time.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: You shine a light on them differently, maybe in your 20s versus your 30s, or 40s versus your 50s, and so on.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So, speaking of this great definition, what's a memorable moment of boldness for you?
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: So I think one of my first memories.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't know I was being bold at the time.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: But I look back and I we're not on camera, but I'm not a very big person.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like maybe five, two on a good day, but now I'm in my 50s.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I don't want to measure myself.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Sure, you just made me sit up taller.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll do that too.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: But I, during elementary school, I was on a swim team and one season they set goals for us and we had goals in the freestyle and the backstroke and the butterfly and I was able to get my goals and but I had a goal for butterfly and, being a petite person, butterfly was not my strength and I just remember thinking to myself fourth, third or fourth grade like, oh, I'm going to get this goal, yeah, I'm going to do this.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: And it was not hard and I was really strategic and I remember my best friend was a really good butterflyer, so I would have her practice next to me and I'd try to chase her and eventually, after like months of doing this, I finally, you know, was able to get, was able to get my goal of this 50-yard butterfly.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: You know, age eight or nine, and what that meant was I actually got a really nice sweat jacket.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: It was like the first memory of being like, oh, there's a lot of odds against this because I'm just physically not very good at this, but I'm going to be bold and just believe in myself that I can achieve this goal.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: So that was a very early memory of being bold without really knowing it, and I think you're absolutely right that coming into whatever our definition of boldness is comes with life experience too, and living through life and certain chapters of our life that we think, wow, I would have maybe not written that chapter this way, but it is life and you learn from it come out the other side and learn the power of vulnerability and how to be true to yourself and just showing up.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: And so it's really allowed me and propelled me to.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: You know, put myself out there knowing that I could but putting myself out there.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: And I think that as we get into more of the conversation of how I pursued my passion as in lifestyle medicine, and what I truly believe about goes into wellness and healing and my passion for the outdoors and some of these things that I just feel so strongly deep, this deep connection that I want to share with others and allow that to come out of me and be brave enough to show that.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I think that's where I'm continuing to learn how to be bold about that.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I think what I think about integrative medicine and boldness.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I think being in integrative medicine and wellness is bold in itself.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Going back to when I was at Duke, we created the integrative center and it was a big deal and it's a beautiful building and it's still actually where I go to get my acupuncture.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: I remember it being bold because it's not something immediately that makes money.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: It's not something that immediately you can look at.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: You know, in anyone in healthcare or in any business, everyone looks at a service line or looks at something and says you know, how much profit can we make?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: What are the trade-offs?
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Not everything makes money in healthcare, of course, but when you're building something, you want to make sure you have a business plan for it.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: But out of the gate, it wasn't something that did that and I remember just feeling like, wow, we're being very bold by creating this center, by doing these things, by putting this type of medicine, and we're talking early 2020, 23 years ago it wasn't the cool thing that it may be now, and even now people are still trying to figure out how to do this.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Now you work at Canyon Ranch, which I think is someone who has also been in the forefront of this.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: It's definitely been part of their ethos of how they operate right.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think that Mel Zuckerman, the founder of Canyon Ranch, you know, 40 years ago, just had this vision that wellness is not just one part.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: There's many facets, many parts to wellness, and he had this concept of let's put this essentially under one roof, where we can have integrated care, and we know that wellness is not just.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I mean there's big parts, components of food you put into your body, or how you move your body, or how much your self compassion, which your spiritual beliefs, what's your mental health.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: All these things are really important and I always describe this, or think about this, as spokes on a wheel and like riding a bike and I'm a big bike rider and if you break one of those spokes, it's not a good thing.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Your wheel will not revolve as properly.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: So all of these lifestyle components really not only play off of each other, but are equally important, and I think that's what Mel Zuckerman really envisioned very very long ago, and so at Canyon Ranch.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like we do an excellent job at taking care of the whole person.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, another important point you said is, you know, when you were swimming and doing the butterflies like you didn't think about being bold, and I think that is the thing that I don't people believe us or not but I didn't go around saying I'm bold, I'm bold, I'm bold.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Obviously I'm talking about it a lot now, but in my life until 48, I wasn't really amplifying that.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: I was that, no doubt, but I didn't walk into room, go on both, and I think what's interesting about that is sometimes you're being bold and you don't even know it Right.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: So you're taking a chance, you're learning your.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: You might fail when you come out of it.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I mean your example of the butterfly.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: It took a while, you know, to get to the point where you felt you were actually mastering it or able to do it well, and that's both.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Another example of that is, you know my path very early on, even going, considering going into medicine, there was not a single family member we're talking parents, aunts, uncles, cousins that was in the medical field, doctors and doctors.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: And you know, at an early age I said I think I'm going to be a doctor, you know, and just had this calling, as we'll say.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: But just this curiosity and this interest and again, didn't come from any healthcare professionals within my family.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: And this was back in the in the 80s, when women in science this is far, you know, before STEM and all these programs and I went to the University of Michigan for undergrad in 1988.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: And they had a brand new program called Woman in Science.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: And so freshman year I thought, well, this sounds kind of interesting.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: And I was in the very first cohort I think there was 10 of us where they assigned us to labs and I worked doing research on tissue culture and just was really exposed to science.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: And now we know that.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: You know, when you look at medical school classes, about half of them are females, which is wonderful.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: But back then, you know, we just didn't have that representation.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: And so, thank goodness for me.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: You know and I had in middle school and high school I had science teachers that I'd be one of the only females in the class that they really encouraged me.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: They're like you're good at this, you can do this.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: You know, if your dream is to go to medical school, you've got the tools.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: And again, like not realizing this was being bold by being a minority, that was, you know, really wanting to pursue this, not having a background in it, not having a family member that could guide me, and just saying this is, this is my mission and this is my calling, and I'm going to do what I can do to prepare myself for that.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: And, and truth be told, I didn't get into med school the first time.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I tried, and so I tried again.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: And so when people you know say, gosh, you know, I reviewed her job and I didn't get it, I'm like, ok, you know what did you learn from that, Try again, and I think that you know being bold is continued to show up.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes when we kind of go through that process of learning, working towards our calling, you know, before we recorded we were talking a little about.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: You know, what did you think you were going to be in ninth grade?
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: You know, I thought I was going to do my head two things.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: I was either going to be a CEO of a children's hospital or I was going to be a cardiac surgeon at Duke.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Like I had Duke, even though I'm a big UNC Tarr Hills fan, I wanted to go to school at Duke and I ended up being neither of those.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: So what we think we were going to be or what we want to be sometimes evolves right.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Or we like, stick with it, like it's not.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Like you knew what you wanted to be and you stuck at it and it wasn't easy, right.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: So, again, we go back to butterfly, to med school.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Obviously not the same level of of rigor, but there are probably things that you can extrapolate of what you did when you were 10 versus to what you do when you're 18, 19, 20, 22.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: In a sense of, like, what are your learnings around going after something in the first or second pass?
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: And you're also an ultra marathoner.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: So, like, just last weekend you did a 50 K.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Everything doesn't come easy on an inspection of that.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So what's the process that you go through, in the sense of like, when something doesn't work on the first pass, what goes through your mind from a bold mindset perspective?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's sort of the analysis of, okay, maybe that didn't go the way I wanted to, and then also taking a look at perhaps, you know, this wasn't really the path for me.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: So there's, I think there's a difference between giving up I don't want to give up right Unnecessarily but also saying, okay, I gave it a try and maybe there's a different pathway for me and to not take things personally Because there's been, you know, jobs I've interviewed that I didn't get, and so just saying, okay, did I give up?
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Did I show up as my best self and did I?
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Was I prepared and I gave it my all?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And I think that you know there's a lot of parallels.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: As you mentioned, I've done endurance running and triathlons and things like that and I think there's so many parallels on what happens as I go through like a running race.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just insert a few things, because you're being very modest in how you've run the Boston Marathon 10 times.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: You have run a full Ironman try three times.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: So when she's talking about her racism the thing she does not just that phenomenal 50k which was probably like a 5k to normal people, you know you do 50k on a weekend.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: You have really honed what I would call athleticism being able to in some way be in control of your mind and body as you do something physically.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: So I just want to make sure that people understand what you've done and how much you have honed this craft.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that again, this sort of evolved organically, like I told you that I swam, I dabbled in swimming, but really I was a ballet dancer really growing up, all through middle school, high school, college.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: So taking up running and biking and these kind of things was something I just kind of experimented with and had fun along the way.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And even to this day, when I do an event or a long run, whatever that case may be there's usually a point that I think this is getting too hard, like I think I need to stop, I need to slow down.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I can do this and there's that little voice that says just try to get to the next aid station, just try to get to the next mile marker, just.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I listen to song, to music on my headphones try to get through two more songs.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: It's really balancing.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Are these just my body telling me something?
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Is my mind telling me?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: what are these narratives that I'm hearing and what can I do sometimes to just say no, you're okay, this is uncomfortable right now, you're out of your comfort zone, you're in your challenge zone, but a lot of times, as we know, it's that challenge zone that really makes a difference and propels us to keep moving forward and learning and achieving something.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Obviously, if I've got something going on that I'm injured or something like that, I'm not going to push my body to the point of having some detrimental consequence.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: But a lot of times in life you got to put yourself out there and really put yourself into that challenge zone of like I don't know how this is going to turn out or I'm going to show up.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: And so I think that every time I run a race like that and I always have this conversation oh, if I stop right now, my family will still love me, my kids will still love me, it's okay, I'll come home and my dogs will kiss me and hug me.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: We've both got Bernice Mountain Dogs and they will be all love you, w with me.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: So I have that conversation and then somehow something says you can do this.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Believe in yourself, keep moving forward.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Just, you don't have to think about the finish line.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: You know it's there, but just keep moving forward.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: And I think that in life we have finish lines, there's a goal.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: But I always say that the finish line is not the end, right, it's just kind of a start of something new.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: So I just try to keep those metaphors moving forward, no matter if it's related to my profession, whether it's raising a family, whether it's out on the running course, just all avenues of life.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, important pieces in there of this moving forward right, not staying in the same place, not stagnating.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, when we try hard to do some things, we think, oh, if I quit it'll be bad, it will have a negative consequence, and pushing through it is a good thing.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: There's also a time in our lives where it's almost I'll just use my example like I'm banging my head against a wall, like why am I continuing to do something that really isn't meant for me and I don't know?
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about health, I'm talking about whether it's a job or specific thing I think I wanted, but it's not coming.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you gotta get the message yeah, exactly, yes, there are these moments and it's hard sometimes, like, does this mean I shouldn't try harder?
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Does this, you know?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we're kind of going back and forth.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: It was like well, I didn't get that job, does that mean I should try again or does that mean I should maybe try something new?
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: We have to go through that process of figuring out.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Is it a continue on or is it like let's reflect and maybe pivot?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: But I think, going forward, believing in yourself, realizing that, yes, you have a goal, you have an end goal, but the next step to that goal is what you have to work on first.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Right, and there's a mindset of an ultramarathoner that I just think is fascinating.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: So like reading David Goggins and you know hearing something, I mean he's extreme talk about bull.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, he is extreme, no.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: And if anyone doesn't know, I'm looking him up and you'll just be in awe of like what this guy does and is all about and has a way of going at it and I think everyone can come into that.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: But there is this sense of, you know, wanting to do something more, wanting to get to that next level, wanting to take care of yourself and be healthy and obviously find a lot of joy in it too.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and, like you mentioned this 50 kilometer trail race that I did this past weekend back in Michigan, so it was roughly 31.89 miles to be exact.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: That's what my government said, just roughly, roughly.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: And then it is like again, I'm going to come back to my running line, of course of you know what's going to be a long day and there's a lot of uncertainties.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: You don't know what the weather is going to be like.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: You don't want the course is going to be like.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: You don't know what your body is going to do.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: You don't know how nutrition is going to sit in your gut Like are you going to have GI, and so you literally have to continue to reassess.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Like okay, I'm going to start off and also I'm going to start off.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I don't have to think about finishing right now.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So I start off nice and slow.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I stay within myself, my ability and I'm constantly checking it right and I think anything that we're doing of continuing to move forward you know I always say 1% better and moving towards a goal is that we're always checking in to be like am I okay?
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Am I?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Did I go out too fast because I wanted to be like other people, you know, and so no, no, no, I'll come back to myself Like this adventure is about.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: You know what I want to do with it and not concern myself with everyone else.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I mean you should write a book the comparisons between the mindset of a runner or marathoner.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things you just said which I think happens and is extrapolated into the world we live in daily is comparison.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, Like I'm comparing myself to that person or to that person or to that person, and what happens is you get out of yourself.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Then You're like so much paying attention to everything outside that you're not able to do that check-in that you just talked about, which is so, so important.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: And it's natural, Like it happens to the best of us.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I don't every now and then go hmm, I think I should be at that level, but I'm not.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: But then I very quickly.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: I think that's the thing as I get older, like I get back in much quicker than I did before, right, yes.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: And or I get focused on what I think I hope is the right thing, the next goalpost, you know.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: So it's not.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I'm so far away from what I'm really supposed to be focusing on, but that's really important is that comparison.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I'm not with this 50K.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Not that I was doubting myself, but I'm 53 and I'm not getting any faster, let's be honest.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: But when I started off this and it was gonna be a long day out there I started off really conservative.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know if we meet people along the way.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: So I ended up running with these two wonderful women.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: They were in their 30s and the whole time I'm thinking, oh, that's great that they're keeping me company and I really.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: We ran together for about half the race so I got to know them a lot.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Then, at a certain point, one of them started having some GI issues.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Another one just started slowing down and I just said, well, I feel pretty good, I'm just gonna keep moving forward.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: And part of my mind was like, oh, I'm in my 50s and okay.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And I got to the last aid station and with Altra is like you just check in because they wanna make sure that you didn't get lost out there on wilderness, right, they wanna make sure.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, we got it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: So when I gave my race number this was about five miles to go she said you're the first female and I said, oh, haha, you mean the first old lady female, right?
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: And my age group, the 50 to 55.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: And she said, no, you're the first overall female.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And I thought, my goodness, this is not what I was expecting and I said, well then, I better go, I better keep moving forward.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And so I ended up winning and just really surprised myself.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: But I think that whole strategy of not comparing just stay within myself, continue to evaluate, being smart, not overdoing it.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: But also, you know, when they told me, hey, you're winning this thing, I was like, well, then I'm going to finish this thing.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So it's, you know, I think that we learn those lessons just in the least expected places sometimes.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so maybe I will write that book because there are so many.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think of that, and there's like there's great examples right there.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: You under compared in this sense, like you didn't realize how great you were doing.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: So it's important for people to remember that.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: But how you can avoid that is just staying within yourself, running your own race and not anybody else.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that you've done in your career is also help physicians with the world that they have to live in.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about the Revive program and what that is all about and how it came about?
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Absolutely A little bit.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Over a year ago, I met with a another physician, Dr Robin Tiger.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Some of your listeners may be familiar with her.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: She's just seen her on LinkedIn.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the stress free MD.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: We both have been doctors for a long time 25, 30 years.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Robin came from radiology and.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: I'm more certified in an intral medicine and then we both became board certified in lifestyle medicine, and so we're board certified through the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, where we acknowledge and understand through evidence that our lifestyle behaviors are so intricately tied to our health and well being.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So that's food is medicine, movement is medicine, sleep is medicine, the point in some risky substances, stress management, social connection, and then I also wear the hat of Dr Outdoors.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: So nature is medicine, and so these seven pillars of health are really so important in lifestyle medicine.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: We look to boost individuals overall well being by utilizing these pillars.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: And we came together and Robin had the great idea because she's been doing physician well being coaching and really helping fellow physicians of let's combine our hats and let's put together a program called Revive, and Revive is all about group coaching for physicians in order to elevate their well being.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And people would think that as physicians, because we know how to take care of others, we know how to take care of ourselves and we really don't.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: We're not taught this in medical school and Robin and I learned this becoming board certified in lifestyle medicine, and I think that when you are a lifestyle medicine physician just like if you're an integrative medicine a lot of times you need to practice what you preach in order to live this life.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And so we created a program.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: We did our first cohort in the spring.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: We had physicians of all different kinds of specialties and different times in practice.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Some people were fairly new to being in practice in medicine, some were retired, and what we found was that physicians, you know, really are struggling.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: We know that when we look at burnout, when we look at resilient cy and all these catchphrases, is that people are leaving the profession.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I know that's coming across a lot of people leaving their profession, but I think that we're really seeing this in medicine like we haven't before.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: And so our program was 10 weeks and we met virtually and we did both.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: We felt it was very important not to just talk to individuals about the what and why like, how should you eat better, like or why should you eat better and what's the evidence, but also how.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: So we had both didactic sessions and then experiential.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: So, for nutrition, we actually talked about what good nutrition looks like in the didactic portion and then on the experiential, we actually had our physicians go to their cupboards, take things out of the refrigerator, the cupboards, and we talked about how to read food labels, something that you know they didn't know how to do.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: And then, for you know, stress, robin and all of her training with yoga and mindfulness, was able to go through experiential about how to do self-care as far as stress management and, as Dr Outdoors, we talked about nature.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: We actually did a grounding technique, a shenren yoku, where we went outside.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: So not only did we focus on the what and why, we also gave the tools about how.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Experiential and we collected data pre and post and our physicians did amazing.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: And so there was tangible things like they lost weight.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Some people who really wanted to focus on cutting down alcohol or caffeine were able to do that.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Some people who hadn't been exercising started to exercise and individuals that were more socially isolated started spending more time with friends and family.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: People felt more present at work.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: They felt like they could be there better around the family.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: They had more patients.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: So we had really really good outcomes and it really was just learning about self-care.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're trained, is you know?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Our patients come first and we want to really make them understand you can't take care of others if you aren't showing up as your best self, and so how to come back to that and tools to be able to do that.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: So, yes, it's called revive and we are currently getting ready for our next cohort and really excited about what we've been able to see the transformations.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of things you said in there of you know.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we underestimate what we know or what we don't know, and I think these are people who take care of other people, who have their lives in their hands in the sense of, like what they're responsible for, but, like you said, they may not put themselves first.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Right that they may actually be the last on the list.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: What's the one thing that you know?
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Someone who is not a physician?
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: What don't we understand about a physician's life?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Just educate us a little bit here.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I think from our training from day one is the devotion.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: The devotion comes, this passion right, that it is part of you.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: You become a healer and the way that we are trained, especially when I was in training in the late 80s, early 90s, is you had to make a lot of sacrifices, right, and I ended up having my two kids during residency.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: So fortunately I was able to take six weeks off, but the very first day I came back, you know, after six weeks off, I was put on a 36 hour call and so really have to learn how to balance that.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: And I did my best to balance being a physician and a mom and a wife and a daughter.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: And there was times that it was not easy and I was in tears and you know things that would be where I felt like I wasn't showing up enough as a mother, I wasn't showing up enough as a physician, and so really they we know that all professions, but certainly when you're taking care of people's lives, it's a lot of responsibility and sometimes it's really hard to create healthy boundaries and I think when, if you talk to physicians, we all have cases, we'll say that just you know, like maybe outcomes that were not ideal or situations that you really I mean just shakes you to the core of loss and responsible for lives.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: You're responsible for people's sons and daughters and aunts and uncles and parents and you know children and it's a lot of responsibility but with that responsibility comes so much joy and so much you know privilege.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Like that I've been able to impact others' lives.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: So I think that and I don't want to sing a lot of just physicians because I think so many professions, people are so passionate about what they do, but it truly to my core is being a healer.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: But it is a lot of responsibility and it, you know, it always is and I've taken that oath I'd hit the credit card to really care for others and do my best that I can each and every day.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's the next level of responsibility.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure people listening talk about devotion and passion and sacrifices and it not being easy and trying to find alignment or balance, and, you know, realizing boundaries get stretched in any industry, right, but I think there's a degree of that and I think you know, in many people, look, no one's going to die if we make this decision.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Well, that's not the case when it comes to physician, right.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So I think, you know, even as an administrator in healthcare, in operations, I was like I just want to make sure that what I do makes a difference in the lives of other people, whether we get something done faster or more efficiently or a high level of quality or better outcome, like we can all connect into what you just talked about, but it is an elevated and I want to just acknowledge the elevated responsibility of an MD.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely One of the things that I think I've heard and I don't know if you've heard this at Canyon Ranch and the things that you've done with Provive.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: But I know what to do but I'm not doing it.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: So what advice would you give to someone?
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: And I'm one of those people you know around their health.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Let's just hone into health.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I know what to do.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I know I need to eat, I need to move, I need to.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: You know, go to the LinkedIn and you get bossed around quite a bit.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: You'll know what to do yeah, and you're absolutely right.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Behavior change is really difficult, right?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: That's why 80 to 90% of New Year's resolutions do not last.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Right, we were just talking about that.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I think, when you look at behavior change with our physicians, one of the things we would do with each pillar that we were going through each week is that we would work with them to create, okay, a goal for behavior change within that pillar and we utilized level of confidence okay, and we always emphasized 1% better, because I think so often with behavior change, you're like I need to lose 20 pounds yesterday, I need to be able to run a 5K yesterday, I am going to sleep at least seven hours yesterday, and so we are in this culture of we want quick fixes, right, and so often those quick fixes are not sustainable.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: So, as a lifestyle medicine physician, my whole platform is we want to create sustainable lifestyle behaviors.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: This is not a diet.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: This is not you're doing P90X for the next three months and then you're done Once you finish the program.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: This is not, oh, I'm doing a sleep challenge with my friends and then after that I'm gonna go back to my old ways of crappy sleep habit.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: This is about creating sustainable change, and so, in order to do that, some tools that we use is addressing like if you want to make a change of like, you know what?
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I don't like vegetables, but I'm gonna try to have one vegetable a day, right.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: And then I say, okay.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: So, lee, what's your?
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: How confident are you on Zero to like?
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: No way can I do that.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: 10?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And you're like well, probably about a five.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: And I say, well, okay, then we probably shouldn't have you make that goal, because really we know that level of confidence unless you're at a seven, it may not be successful.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: So how about you say I'm gonna have a vegetable every other day?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: You're like, oh, I'm an eight.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm an eight.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, then let's make that your goal.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: And then going to, you know, creating a smart goal, so being specific, being measurable, being attainable, being relevant in time.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: So, okay, what kind of vegetable are you gonna have?
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think on Mondays I'm gonna try broccoli.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Well, what meal are you gonna have it?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Oh God, yeah, you need to think about that.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna put it in my salad at lunch.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds great.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And you're gonna do that how many times a week?
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna try doing that twice a week.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: So all of these things that we can set up beforehand, because behavior change, some people just can flip a dime and do it, but a lot of us, the majority of us, really have to be thoughtful about this and there is no right or wrong way.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: But we want to help set up behavior change for success and the more planning and forthout we can do for that, in just again saying that quick fixes oftentimes don't last A lot of times.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: My patients, they will emphasize 1% better.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And then I actually draw two ladders and one ladder has rungs to climb like every six inches and then and it gets to the top of the building and then the ladder standing next to it has rungs about every like five feet and still gets the top of the building and you say which ladder do you think you wanna climb?
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I wanna climb the one that has all the rungs Again.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: yes.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: So baby steps, moving forward or moving up the ladder is still gonna get you to that same destination, but you're gonna have a lot higher percentage of success along the way.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: So that's how we empower and educate and guide my patients too.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: And if you're not able like you have a bad day or it was on vacation, I got uptracked that's okay, right, this is.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: It's a cliche saying progress now perfection, right.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: So in just aiming 1% better, that's all.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Don't have to be 100% better, don't have to be even 25% better, just 1% better.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: And these things will be additive, right, and they build off of each other.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: If you start to eat a little bit better, you're probably gonna sleep a little bit better and your mood is probably gonna be a little bit better and you're gonna have the energy to maybe move your body more.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: And so everything plays off of all these lifestyle.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Medicine.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Colors do interact and play off of each other.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Definitely a couple of things in there of just the 1% better, I think.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: If you think about your example of the rungs of the actual ladder, I think sometimes we're like I want it quicker, I want it better, I want it faster, right, so I'm gonna.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I look at that ladder with the big spaces in between, I'm gonna do that one, and then we get the first one and then, like, the second one comes really hard and then we quit, we stop or pause or whatever you wanna call it.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I call it quitting and then you don't start back up again because, man, that was too hard, it's because your goal wasn't the right goal potential or your measure wasn't the right measure.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: So I think people hearing that it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: It just means you maybe need to start over and do it a different way.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Right, and it has to be sustainable.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, you can have your off days.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you have an off day, everybody has an off day but it's like how long does it take you to get back to where you need to be?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: So, some great guidance.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Check all the things about Melissa and her work and revive and Canyon Ranch in the episode notes.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, leah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.