Latest / Twin Mom Life / Jamie Otis Hehner on Sharing Her Life Online, Entrepreneurship and Balancing Motherhood
Transcript
- Jessielee Sittig: Hello and welcome to the Twin Mom Life podcast. I'm your host, Jess. I created this podcast to help build community, connection, and most importantly, friendships among moms of multiples. Being a twin mom can be amazing and magical. That twin bond is unlike anything I've ever witnessed, but it can also be isolating and overwhelming. I'll be chatting with other twin moms, diving deep into the twin experience. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy twin mom life to listen along. I hope this podcast shed some light on a topic that's been on your heart and gave you more confidence as a twin mama. If you know a twin mom, please send this her way. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Check out the show notes to be connected with today's guest and get discount codes for brands I love. See you next Thursday. Until then. giving advice on what works for us so you don't have to learn the hard way. Juggling two babies at the same time is challenging, but I'm confident we can learn from each other and figure out how to raise these babies together. You are made for this. Welcome to the podcast. So today we have Jamie. Otis, how are you? Jamie Otis Hehner: Thanks. Jessielee Sittig: I'm so excited to have you on. was saying this earlier, this is a little bit of like a pinch me moment. your story and all the things that you have shared has really like changed the trajectory of how I've looked at things that have happened in my life. So like your losses ⁓ and other medical things, I'm just thankful for you being so vulnerable and I just can't wait to dive in and chat. You are a TV personality, a successful businesswoman, a mama of four, including twins. What am I missing? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Jamie Otis Hehner: Well, think thank you so much for such a nice introduction. I think you nailed it. I mean, I think that most people probably know me from Married at First Sight, but I was also on The Bachelor before that. Did you know that? Jessielee Sittig: I did. Jamie Otis Hehner: Oh, you did? Oh, you're a true, true girlfriend then. I call all my followers like, I'm like, I don't have followers, but I have friends and they're my girlfriends. really are. I, that's amazing. love chatting with you then. Jessielee Sittig: you I'm an OG. Ha okay, so can you tell us about your family and your twins and like ages and all that stuff? Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah, so I met and married my husband in, ⁓ my gosh, ⁓ I have such bad brain fog, but it was March 23rd, 2014, and I'm like literally thinking that as I say it. I'm like, it was March 23rd. Yes, and so we got married on the show called Married at First Sight and it wasn't, you know, if anyone saw wasn't at First Sight. ⁓ I there's like a huge misconception that it was just like, ⁓ you're immediately in love and I think that's ⁓ maybe people I think relate to me as well is that I was like, I had already been on The Bachelor and so I was like, ⁓ no. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: I thought this was a different type of TV show. didn't think that, like I thought this was real and I'm not gonna pretend to be in love when I'm not. And so, cause they all like, can kiss the bride. And of course that's like normal, but I'm like, I'm not kissing him. I literally met him two seconds ago. Like we're not like sure. Yeah, but then I got like so much hate that I wasn't immediately like, it's almost like if I was rejecting him, I'm like, I'm not trying to reject him. I don't know him. And like, and then there was like the photo shoot that came right after and they're like, ⁓ get close, like sit with him. And I'm like, Jessielee Sittig: That's like a normal reaction. Jamie Otis Hehner: This is really weird. I just met him. Like this is very strange. And they're like, I'm like, I felt like they were trying to make it seem like we were this happily married couple. And I'm like, I literally just met him. But anyways, we got married on that show. And that was a whole thing because I wasn't immediately attracted to him and whatnot. ⁓ but then here we are 12 years later and we have our daughter who is eight and our son who is five and then a set of twins who are di-di identical ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Yay, me too. Well, and I will say the one thing that I loved about the show and that we don't really see anymore is like that matchmaking component. So even though you just met for the first time, like you guys were selected to be together based off of like preferences, personality types. And obviously it worked. You guys have been married for 12 years. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yes. Yeah, and that's exactly, you really are an OG because I feel like some people when they hear how we got married and stuff, they're like, ⁓ my God, was he really a stranger? You really didn't know his name? And I'm like, it sounds fantastical because it kind of is, but like there's also this level of, there was like a lot of science that went behind it. And I went to school to be a registered nurse, always loved science. And so when they presented it to me, they were like, you know, would you right now, Jessielee Sittig: Yes. Jamie Otis Hehner: divorce in America is 50-50, like marriage is surviving, it's about 50-50, would you be interested in having these experts kind of hold your hand and scientifically analyze you and a whole bunch of other singles in the tri-state area and find someone who's quote unquote perfect on paper and see if you could potentially like, you know, if that could help change the statistic, like if you were having an arranged marriage based on science, could that help? And I was like, you know, what I'm doing clearly isn't working. And so I went for it, but I... Like I said, also, I wasn't interested in the drama of The Bachelor and whatnot. I really wanted something that was authentic. so ⁓ fast forward to my wedding day, and I was like, wait a minute. Did they just bamboozle me? I was someone that I didn't think that I should be with. But anyways, here we are 12 years later, and it worked out. Jessielee Sittig: Well, I totally get that, even though you know what you were signing up for. It's still like the shock of like, I did just meet this person. I'm not ready to like kiss and cuddle can we talk? ⁓ Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah, for real. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And actually, ironically, we did talk. So like we said, I do. You know, I was like, I literally said it like that because I was like, holy moly, what am I doing? And then we walked down back down the aisle and we like wait at like this. Like literally it was like a conference table outside of like where we had just gotten married because we got married at a hotel. And so I imagine the conference table probably came from that room that we just got married in and they just moved the conference tables out. Jessielee Sittig: Can we talk first? Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah, very, very posh. they, like every, like as we were waiting for all the guests to like come filtering out, my husband said to me, yeah, so you know, where do you live? Where are you from? And I was like, oh, I live here in Manhattan. I'm a nurse at Columbia Presbyterian. And he was like, yeah, I just got my first job and that I'm excited to like retire from. I live with my parents. And I was like. ⁓ What? And so no one really knows that part of the kind of like the panic attack that I had ⁓ but they just assumed I just wasn't attracted to him and so I had this huge panic attack and I'm like no it was actually there was zero chemistry and then he told me he lived at home with his parents and he just got like this job and I'm like That was like my deal breaker was someone I had three deal breakers and the first was ⁓ that he couldn't like that, you know, that he couldn't be into drugs because that really destroyed my family. My mom struggles with that and I just didn't want anything to do with drugs. He couldn't be in debt because I worked really hard to get to where I was at. I literally probably only ⁓ had $15,000 but like to me that was a lot of money. Like it still is a lot of money. I had $15,000. Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ yeah! Jamie Otis Hehner: In Manhattan, I was doing well for myself. I was taking care of myself. This guy couldn't have debts I didn't want to go there. I worked so hard to stay out of debt myself. ⁓ He couldn't be in debt, he couldn't be a drug addict, and he had to have a really big welcoming family. Those are the things that I really wanted because I so desperately wanted family. I really didn't have family at all. When my mom was, sometimes she still struggles with addiction. so I feel like our family, they did not reach out to be like, oh, can we help you? I think they assumed we might be on that path as well. so they... Jessielee Sittig: Mmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: were never like, ⁓ can we help you? know, at one point I had all three of my younger siblings living with me and not one person from my family was like, can I help? And behind you, was 19 at the time. Like, that's wild. I look back now and I see little 19 year olds and I'm like, dang girl, like you were so strong back then. you better, ⁓ better, like sometimes I'm like, you were stronger then than you are now because I cry over silly things. And back then ⁓ was just. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: I still can't believe that. Jamie Otis Hehner: driven and made it happen. But anyways, needless to say, I had those three deal breakers and he was living at home with his parents and I was like, just got it out. like, do you have debt? Like, I mean, this is not, I was hoping for someone somewhat and that's so judgy of me at right off the bat. That's so judgy. ⁓ I take full accountability for that, but it ⁓ what I was anticipating. And so, yeah. Jessielee Sittig: I don't think it's judgy. But it's like when you're going to start a life with someone, those are really important questions that you typically would know ahead of time. So I don't think that's judgy at all. You're like processing all of this while you're being filmed. Jamie Otis Hehner: ⁓ like if we hadn't met. Oh yeah, if we had met, I think, like at a bar or something, and if he would have said, yeah, I'll take you home to my childhood bedroom, I would have been like, out, you know, like don't want to meet your parents, you know, on our first date and go back to your childhood bedroom. I'm 27, you're 32, like, or maybe he was 31 actually, because he's four years older than me. So I, yeah, but you know, that's to the credit of Married at First Sight and the science behind it is we are two people who like really needed each other. Like I, he's Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: loyal man who's incredibly patient and very non-judgmental, very, very kind, very even keeled, and I'm very much like kind of quick to bounce out if like I feel like I'm gonna get hurt or... feel like I'm going to be taken advantage of. And also, I'm able to save, and I'm able to create businesses, and I'm able to kind of execute things, whereas he's like, it'll happen if it'll happen. And I'm like, no, we got to make this happen. So we're very good for each other in that respect. Jessielee Sittig: It sounds like a very, very good balance. Absolutely. And I was going to bring this up earlier. It kind of sounds like you were always just ready to be a mom or had that nurturing personality and trait about you. How do you think you were able to manage caring for your siblings so young? Jamie Otis Hehner: ⁓ Well, think that to be very honest, I think that I didn't necessarily want to. so we were living in a trailer park and my mom was gone. for weeks on end on drug binges. And at the time, I didn't even realize they were drug binges. I just knew that we had no heat. We had no electricity at one point. It was freezing, and we had a generator in our bathroom. And my mom would try to like, you're not supposed to have generators in the house. It's very dangerous to have those fumes. She left the window open in the bathroom, and there was a hole in the floor. So she felt like that was filter. Jessielee Sittig: Mmm, my gosh. ⁓ sure. Jamie Otis Hehner: like filtering it enough in order for us to have like a generator to kind of have like some electricity on and whatnot. And we had a kerosene heater, like a space heater and like just, mean, at least she had kind of a second backup plan, but it's like the middle of winter and we're freezing and there's no food and she's disappearing. And this is at the time I was, I believe either 18 or 19. And I had graduated high school and my younger siblings who are three years younger than me. And then I have a set of fraternal twins. my brother and sister are five years younger than me. people assume because I have fraternal twins in my family that twins run in my family. But another fun fact is identical twins don't run in families. It's a fluke. And so like if they were fraternal, we could probably say, ⁓ yeah, maybe at random my family. But my mom always told me because I've always wanted twins. ⁓ I'm also you're not going get it. It's going to pass you and go to the next generation because that's just what happens in our family line with the fraternal twins. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Cool! Mmm. Yeah, it's gone. Jamie Otis Hehner: And so you can imagine my surprise when I literally prayed to God for twins and I literally prayed the egg would split and I got them. I did also ask if I got to be picky. I literally said it like that, like, if I get to be picky, I would love it to be girls. And there's a reason I have boys. am but because, you know, God doesn't give you eggs. That's exactly right. And so anyways. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: gives you what you need. Jamie Otis Hehner: You know, I, so when we were in that situation where like there's no food, there's no heat, there's no electricity, and the house is a pigsty, my mom's gone all the time. When she is home, she's locking herself in her bedroom and we're like banging on our door like, hello, mom, like we're here, like do you care about us at all? I feel like my biggest guilt that I have is that when I went through that, I left my siblings in that trailer while my mom was just always gone and to kind of fend for themselves so that I could go out. I just wanted to be somebody and I kind of wanted to escape and. I wish desperately that I never did that because what happened between the time that my mom wrote the note for them to get off the bus at my house and then, I don't know, know, like, it's just that they should have never had to fend for themselves like that. But luckily, you know, my mom was so late on rent as usual, but this time they like, and they were threatening and threatening and threatening these eviction notices, but they couldn't really, they can't really, you know, lock you out because there's people in there. And so at one point, I guess we were all gone and they like locked us out. they, so my mom said, no place for my siblings to go. And they just, can she write a note for them to get off the bus at my house? And I was like, yes, of course. And that, and then she just didn't come back for a while. And that's when I, so it was not like I like planned for it. And I was, I wish that I could say that I had, but really it was just kind of thrown in my lap. And then when they were there, I was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that they're like, know that they're loved and safe and taken care of. And we really had like a great little, dynamic, but I was so young and so then, you my mom would ask, she would come and she would ask for money and I would like yell at her like, like she was my child, like, excuse me, you're gonna ask me for money when I'm taking care of your kids? Like, no, I'm not giving you any money. And so she took them away from me and it's such a long story. And I did write a book, I don't know if you know that, but I shared about this in my book and kind of like how this went down. But in any case, it's not like, but I have always, you know, wanted a child of my own and Jessielee Sittig: Yeah. Jamie Otis Hehner: wanted to be a mom, I've always really longed for that mother-daughter relationship that I think so many people have and when I see other people have it, I do get envious of that. I'm like, wow, that must be so nice. I couldn't even imagine what that's like. And in another sense, it also hurts my heart for my mom because I think my mom also has always longed for that and would long for that even now, but she doesn't know how to. Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: give that or even receive that really. And because it's, you this is all a cycle and these are just cycles that happen in lifetimes. so anyways, I, it's, it's a sad topic when I see like, I mean, I, you know, you see those reels when women are like, what would I do postpartum? Like, ⁓ what got me through postpartum? Like their mom is like ⁓ of just like babying them and their baby. And I'm like, ⁓ that'd be so nice. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Mm. Well, the beautiful thing is that you get to do that for your daughter and your sons. Jamie Otis Hehner: 1000 % it. So, you know, I am still struggling to close like this chapter of my life of like creating our family. And it's 100 % because I had spent Christmas alone crying on the floor, like pitiful. And I was like, I'm going to, like, I just couldn't wait. Like I like, I just so badly wanted to create my own family so that I know that every, like I'll never have to spend another holiday alone crying on the floor because you know, I had no family to be with. Like my siblings had went to my sister's, but I wasn't allowed there. It's a long story. I'm even gonna get into it. But my sister, my older sister and I are very different and she didn't like the way that I was doing something. And so she banned me from like her kids and from being with at her house altogether. But she invited our siblings to go have Christmas with her. And I would never say, no, you cannot do that. And you know, she has our nieces and nephew. And so I was like, of course go. But then I like I'm sitting home alone. pitifully crying, like, and I was like, am going, like, I just so desperately wanted to have a family of my own where they would gravitate towards me and want to be with me. And that means everything to me. And so fast forward to like going on The Bachelor, I was like, I don't even belong here. These people, this guy's not gonna want anything to do with me. And then, you know, I was also on Bachelor pad and I thought maybe, and then married at first sight. Jessielee Sittig: you Jamie Otis Hehner: That's why I was so particular about those three deal breakers that I had because I really wanted family that would gravitate towards me and want to be around me, that would accept me and love me. And then I also really wanted to create my own. And so that's why I think I've wanted so many kids, because I'm like, you truly cannot count on anyone in the world. You just can't. But if you have your own kids, you're going to let them know they can count on you. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: and I'm gonna have that mother-daughter relationship with my daughter. Thank you, God, that I have a daughter, but also with my boys. I didn't know how great a mother-son relationship could be until I had them, so yes. Jessielee Sittig: Boys are so sweet to their mama. Like I love my relationship with my daughter. It's amazing. But I feel like the way that my boys like love on me, like hugs and kisses is just like different from my daughter. Jamie Otis Hehner: I 100 % agree. Like it's just night and day because my daughter, but we, it's so interesting because there really is such a different dynamic, but they're both so special in their own ways. Like, Jessielee Sittig: So a video that stuck out to me on your Instagram, like speaking of mother daughter relationships is the sweetest video of you and your daughter, kind of throughout the big, like when she was little and showing you taking her to places in your career, like in interviews and doing your podcast. And it's so cute. It's the sweetest video. Jamie Otis Hehner: Oh really? Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. thank you. Yeah, you know, it's kind of not a secret. I married a man who... was a little bit, I don't want to say a man child, because that's really demeaning and degrading. But I think we all marry men, like man child. He was like, I think a lot of us do. It's just kind of how it goes, which is why I'm raising my boys. They're going to know how to do laundry. They're going to know how to balance a checkbook. Not that we even use checkbooks, but they're going to know how to manage these things. he was just very much, his parents supported him. like endlessly with his, he was in sports. And so they supported him like wholeheartedly in that aspect. And so that was like his whole trajectory was that he was going to be a professional baseball player because he was at D1 school, he was being scouted, but then he got an injury and that kind of shut everything off for him. And so I don't think that any parent, they just, they're the best parents to him in that sense. However, he really didn't learn how to take care of like, Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: the normal things in life, because his mom is such a mama bear and just kind of does it. At least that's what my understanding is. And so anyways, I instantly feel like I have to defend my mother-in-law, because ⁓ instantly think of the mother. I'm like, no one wants to hear that about their child. So let me defend my mother-in-law. So what was the question again? Because now I completely forgot. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Yes, so we were talking about that video of you and your daughter, and then I think it sparked something about your husband. Jamie Otis Hehner: Oh yeah, okay. Yes, yes, so what happened was, you know, I ended up, you I lost our first baby. I finally get my daughter and it was, of course, everything to me and I was still flying out to LA. I never had maternity leave ever. Like I've never taken every single baby I've ever had. It was on camera and I was like shooting and working and whatnot and that was a choice that I made. I honestly kind of, as a nurse, as a labor and delivery nurse, I really wanted the footage because I wanted to be able to like relive that. And it all happened so fast. And I was like, a blessing that I get to film this and relive it. And I know some people are not into that. But for me, I was like, I am so thankful to have this. ⁓ needless to say, I to fly out to LA to shoot Married at First Sight Unfiltered. I think it was about two months after Henley was born. ⁓ And breastfeeding. And ⁓ were filming Jamie and Doug Plus One. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Wow. Jamie Otis Hehner: I just knew that my husband couldn't be left alone for the whole weekend while I was out shooting a show with our daughter, our two month old daughter. He didn't wake up with her at night. absolutely changed diapers. He would have done it if he had to, but I wouldn't do that to him or to her. ⁓ I flew her out to LA and I just always did pretty much that whole first year because I was exclusively breastfeeding and I didn't trust my husband to wake up with her and things like that. ⁓ And so that's kind of how she always ended up out in LA with me when I was shooting those shows. And it's interesting now, like, looking back, like, again, I'm like, dang girl, like, how did you do that? Like, you're shooting these shows. I'm simultaneously sharing my life, you know, on Instagram and with the world. And I just, you just do it, right? Like us women, us moms, we just do it. And it's interesting now, looking back, again, I'm like, dang girl, ⁓ how did you do that? Like, you're shooting these I'm simultaneously sharing my life, you know, on Instagram and with the world. ⁓ I just, you just do it, right? Like us women, us moms, we just do it. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: I that's, I mean, that was gonna be one of my next questions is like, how did you, and how are you balancing being a mom of four and twins and like multiple businesses? Like how, what are you doing? What's your secret sauce? Jamie Otis Hehner: Well, I don't feel like I'm doing well, to be very honest. I honestly feel like I could be doing far better than I am right now, but, Jessielee Sittig: that's probably every mom's inside voice. Everyone is saying that in their head. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah, honestly, if I could tell you like the one thing that helps speak out about it honestly, I don't, I struggle sometimes like, man, like postpartum depression is so effing real. And I really had it so bad with Hendrix. mean, Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: almost like postpartum psychosis with Hendrix. And I feel like I'm doing better with the twins, but they say that it comes back with a vengeance for the next one. And I'm like, it's not going to happen. I have a great therapist. I'm on medicine. I'm aware. Whereas I think with Hendrix, I really kind of wasn't anticipating or aware of it happening. But man, it can be so hard. So I would say like, realistically for anyone listening who's like wanting to have a family or has a family and is like feeling like they're sinking, I would say therapy number one. Like without a doubt, with all my heart, absolutely find yourself a therapist. And if you, if you talk to someone, you know, for the first time and you're feeling a little judged or like misunderstood, that's not your therapist and that's okay. Sometimes Jessielee Sittig: Mmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: couple therapists before we find the one who really listens, who really nurtures you, who really gives you insight. Keep going because I've had a therapist for a long time now, but it took me a few therapists to find the right one. so that's the first thing I would say is therapy. And the second thing is accept help. And I am awful at accepting help. I'm so awful at it. As a matter of fact, I have a nanny or a mommy's helper. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: three days a week and I purposely don't even want her to come more than that because I want to prove that I'm their mom and that I can do it and that they're with me. like, honestly, I wish I could go back to when I first like had those thoughts to be like, Jamie, you're a working mom and it's okay if you need a nanny six days a week because you have zero family nearby who's helping and you're the breadwinner for your family. You're gonna have to work and you're also trying to breastfeed them like through mastitis, like recurrent mastitis. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Ugh. Jamie Otis Hehner: You know, I don't know how, and this is probably why I'm a little emotional now, is that I'm still trying to catch up and like, catch up and breathe again, because as you know, it's like so hard during that whole first year, and they're a year and a half now, but it's still so hard, and I'm like, when does it get a little easier? But I think accepting help or alert, like if you can't afford having the help, like we're gonna put them in daycare. ⁓ soon and for a long time I was like I don't want to do that like I had them because I want to be with them ⁓ had them because I want to be a present mom I want ⁓ want I purposely and it's like ⁓ sure don't we all have our kids because of that but like ⁓ I also can't like with them being home and me trying to work from home and I hear them cry I then I instantly go to them and then I'm when I'm with them I should be working and I'm not even fully present with them and then you know like and it's just a cycle and it's like Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: So I finally came to the conclusion that, especially now that they're older, I'm like, they need to socialize, they need to learn. And I absolutely love my mommy's helper. She's such a saint. She's so kind and so non-judgmental. I'm like, I'm going to have to keep her on in some way because I don't want to lose her. But I'm I'm kind of giving myself permission to let them go to daycare for five days a week and work they're at school and learning and whatnot. ⁓ And be okay with the fact that I'm not a stay at home mom and I so desperately have always wanted to be a stay at home mom and to be very present with them, but I'm not. they're, you know, like they have to be, I think I'll be able to get more work done while they're away and are, you know, like at school and while my older two are simultaneously at school and then be super present when they're home. And hopefully that will give more like undivided attention to them as well because they always say like, you know, if you're with them but you're not with them, like you're on your phone or you're checking emails or like that's not quality anyways. And so I feel like there's been a lot of that that I catch myself and inevitably work come second my kids will come first. so ⁓ for example, you know, like I just this line, Hendralux, I still don't even have a website and it's fallen through the cracks. It's been many months at this point and I'm like, my God, I have to get this done. But inevitably one of my kids will need something school ⁓ or. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: one of the twins and I'm like, it just, that's the last thing to get taken care of. And so, I don't feel like I'm succeeding right now. I'm definitely kind of sinking, but I think that we're figuring it out. Jessielee Sittig: Well, I love that. feel like accepting help is so key and it takes people a while to get there. Like with my daughter, I feel like I was very similar. Like I had something to prove. Like people would offer and I was like, no, like almost offended. Like I'm going to do it myself. And then I had twins and anyone who wants to help, be like, sure, here's baby. It took, but it took time. Jamie Otis Hehner: same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jessielee Sittig: for me to get there. And I love that you, how you were talking about, know, being a working mom is so hard to balance everything. And I think it's like having help and having daycare, that's all such blessings, like you were saying, so that way when your kids are at school, you can 100 % focus on your work, because I totally feel you on the crying thing. Like my husband will be working and hear the babies crying and like zone out. And I'm like, Jamie Otis Hehner: does it right? Jessielee Sittig: It's like a, I don't know, like a man thing. I cannot. I feel like crying or just like hearing your kids struggle in some way. Or even honestly, sometimes if they're laughing, I'm like, well, what are they laughing about? Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that too. And then you get kind of like FOMO or guilt that you're not there. Like, you know, like you're like, I want to be that moment. Like, yeah, it's it's hard. And I don't know if you have any friends who are stay at home moms, but I do. And I'm like, I kind of compare myself to them. And I'm like, ⁓ they're doing this and their baby's always on them. And I wish my babies were always on me. And like, I they take their baby everywhere. And I'm like, ⁓ I wish I did. And I start to wonder, like, do they think I'm do they think I'm a bad mom because Jessielee Sittig: Yes, thumb up. Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: I'm picking up my kids from the school bus without my twins because I have the nanny or whatever. like, ⁓ golly, there's so many ways that we ourselves judge ourselves. I wish I knew, I wish there was a magic pill to just have us all be confident in who we are. Because I'm also someone who really doesn't believe in constructive criticism. I really believe in hearing what people are saying to you or about you. Is that true? Do you really, do you need to change some behaviors? Because maybe that's accurate and that's valid. And so it's like, really, I'm really big on. Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: know, none of us are perfect. Like we really do need to analyze our own behavior and make sure that we're, you know, we're good for our kids and for our spouses and for ourselves and for our friends. And so I think it would be silly to just, you know, sometimes like if you, especially if you hear the same thing over and over again, like is there truth in that, you know? You know, so in any case. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: And also I think, you know, postpartum hormones, and I don't care what anyone says, people are like, ⁓ you're not postpartum. I'm like, sorry, but six weeks postpartum is not the only postpartum period. And every minute you're writing your hormones, you are postpartum. And even after you stop breastfeeding, then your hormones are still trying to refluxuate. You're postpartum. Like you're postpartum for as long as after you've had a baby, if you ask me, because, know, it's so frustrating when people are like, ⁓ know, you're not postpartum anymore. I'm like, are you kidding me? Because I've had four kids, so I'm certain I'm postpartum still. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ yeah! Absolutely. Well, and you are really in the thick of it with twins. Like, my husband and I joke that we do not remember the first year of having twins. It's just crazy. Jamie Otis Hehner: And I thought it would Like, does it get better when there's almost three? Because like, I thought it would be better after one and I'm like, here we are a year and a half and I'm like, it doesn't feel better yet. Jessielee Sittig: I think it gets better and better. So our boys are sleeping through the night and that took a while. And I think that, right? Like I think that once you have slept, you can just handle a lot more. Like do they have tantrums and twin toddler tantrums together and feed off of each other? Like, yeah, that's hard. But when I've slept, I can handle it a little bit better. And I'm sure, right? And like, I'm sure you're starting to see this already now that they're a year and a Jamie Otis Hehner: Easy. ⁓ a hundred. Jessielee Sittig: but in 18 months, oh my gosh, it's just really cute and it's such a cute age. I know it's hard. Of course it's so hard, but it's so sweet. But I feel like their personalities and their interactions really start increasing. Like my boys are like always holding hands and getting toys for each other. And don't get me wrong, like they fight too. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. Mm hmm. It's true. Jessielee Sittig: but you know, like their, their has just gotten stronger and stronger ⁓ and it is so ⁓ cute see. So I feel that. Like makes it easier. And then having a full night's rest makes it easier to. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. You know what's so interesting is right now I'm on hormone replacement therapy and one of the clinicians that I was talking to, she was like, ⁓ like, I know that you want to try this because I've really been wanting anything to help me with this brain fog and also my periods were really wonky and so I'm I'm certain, ⁓ I'm also turning 40. But ⁓ she like, I know that you really want to try this and ⁓ I'm to let you try it because ⁓ your show that you could benefit Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: fit from it. However, it could also just be the fact that you have twin babies and you're not sleeping and you have the stress of four kids and a husband and a working mom and twin babies and you're not sleeping and like the lack of ⁓ can so and just stress can do so much body and I'm like hmm you're right like ⁓ we just want a magic pill but really we just need our pillow and a bed and to just stay there for a little while and not and the thing is is that ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: it's like the interrupted sleep, you know? Like it's just, and it's not just my twins, it's my older two. Like last night, my daughter woke up and she had a really bad dream. And like we tend to co-sleep with them mostly so I'm like, they don't have to like come in the middle of the night. But you know, my son came in running in, mommy, mommy. And when he did that, it like jarred me. And so my husband's snoring, my daughter's like sleeping next to me. We have a little cot for her. And then my son climbs in bed and he's like, like, Jessielee Sittig: Yes. Jamie Otis Hehner: attacking me because he's just felt so unsafe and I'm just laying there like, okay, I try to go back to sleep, go back to sleep. I tell him that he's safe and he's loved, he's safe and he's loved and then he's like passed out again and I'm just sitting there like, go back to sleep, go back to sleep, go back to sleep, like trying so hard to go back to sleep and it's like, so it's not even just the twins, it's just having, it's just the stage of life with four small kids and waking up consistently. Like I don't think I've ever gotten only recently like, you know, at the summit that we were at and then Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: You know, I went to Mel Robbins and so there, seven hours uninterrupted sleep and I still woke up so groggy because I think it's just like the lack of sleep in general. Like you're gonna need that a few more times before you stop waking up so groggy, Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ yeah, cool. it took a time for our boys to get there, longer than my daughter. So I am sending you positive sleep vibes for everybody. Jamie Otis Hehner: ⁓ thank you. I could use it. And honestly, you know, I am one that thinks that it only lasts so long. you know, when I was a kid, now granted, I like witnessed a lot of very like a lot of domestic violence, like my mom was physically abused often, and I'd happen to witness it. And like the cops would come and all that. And so but the only way that I really felt safe was in bed next to my mom. And so maybe it's a little bit of Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Mmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: like childhood, people will be like, you got to get those kids in their own bed and you got to make them stay there all night. And I'm like, well, I don't know, Sally. Like, I think I'm OK with them feeling safe and comfortable in my bed. And I know that that disrupts my sleep and that then I'm like, you know, it's like a cycle that goes on and on. But at least my kids feel loved and safe, because that's the number one thing for me as a mom. And so if I'm a little groggy, I'll complain about it and I'll lose my thought mid-sentence every single day. But at least I know my kids feel loved and safe all night long. So I'm going to be OK with it. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: And I know that it and like they say like it doesn't like I can't imagine at 16 years old and if they do come on in my bed I'm okay with it Jessielee Sittig: I know it's sweet and you have to do what's best for your family and if co-sleeping is what's best then that's what you should do. On a side note you heard of nurturing twins? She like talks about co-sleeping with twins. Jamie Otis Hehner: ⁓ interesting, because I've actually been, I literally was just saying to Doug, I think ⁓ I want to get a king size bed and have him build like a crib around it so I can just crawl in there with them and let them, because I'm not even kidding you, the other day I just crawled into Hawkins bed and then course Huxley wanted to be in and so I pulled him in and then my. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: My daughter or my son came in, always, I mean, he's always wanting to know where I am, my older son. And so he came in and climbed in and then my daughter came in and climbed in and I was like, good God, we need a bigger bed because, you know, this just doesn't, we just don't all fit. ⁓ interesting, so what does she say about it? Jessielee Sittig: Well, she has, it's called the nurturing twins village. She has like an Instagram and stuff. And she has like a whole course on like co-sleeping with twins and what that can look like. I'm not sure if she also talks about with like a family, you know, but I'm sure she has great tips. I feel like, I don't know if it's one of the moms from big little feelings, but they got this like ginormous bed. I'll have to like send you the post. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. You know, find, yeah, if you find that post, let me know, because I've been trying to find one where they actually, like, where it's already made, but I haven't been able to find one. I did see one from one of my fellow Married at First Sight moms. I saw she posted it, so I reached out to the brand and I was like, oh my gosh, and it wasn't, it's like a play mat though, it's not an actual bed. And so I said, oh, could this be used as a bed? And she was like, no, this can't be used as a bed because it's, you know, X, Y, and Z, Y. And I'm like, Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: Dang it, like I'm like, we just, I would really love probably like a king size mattress, because my husband doesn't want the twins in our bed. He doesn't want that to become like the norm, which I totally understand because our older two are in our bed. But I also believe in my whole, like with my whole heart that if my babies like are crying and crying and crying and need me and they're teething and they could be in pain or maybe they're just having night terrors, I'm not just gonna put them back in their bed and like let them cry it out. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: I will not do that. And I know that lot of times people are like, you know, like the pediatrician at the 18 month checkup, she's like, ⁓ are they sleeping through the night? And I'm like, no, but I'll be honest, it's definitely my fault. I could probably force them to try to sleep through the night, but I'm like, they could be teething and they could be in pain. They could be having night terrors and they can't communicate that with me. I'm just gonna go ahead and they really need their mom. And she actually didn't give me a hard time about it. She was okay with it. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ that's good. Jamie Otis Hehner: Because everyone's like, ⁓ they need their sleep. I'm like, no kidding, they need their sleep. But I'll tell you what, my boys are so stubborn, they will cry for so long. And I'll go in and I'll try to love on them and then let them go back to bed. But it'll be like an hour and I'll go in in increments trying to love on them. And at that point, I'm like, don't we all just like, I mean, we sleep with our husbands. We don't sleep without our husbands. We all co-sleep. Let's all just, can we make this a little bit more normal? Because it seems kind of normal to me. Jessielee Sittig: sure. Well, and you have to do it right for your family. It was so cute. So my twins share room. And one night my daughter was like, Can I sleep in bed with you? And I was like, Oh, are like, are you scared? Or what's going on? And she was like, Well, everyone has like a teammate except me. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, yeah, because me and my husband and then the boys and then she was like, I'm alone. It was so sad. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. ⁓ that's so, yeah, that is like so insightful for a six year old, I feel like. Jessielee Sittig: Yes, I'm like you can hop in anytime girl. So that's very sweet. Well, I would love to hear more about Hendralux your beauty brand. Can you tell us about that? Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah, that's so sweet. Yeah, so for me it started because I was honestly just trying to find a way to feel good about myself, but I don't have time like I used to. Like when I, if you go back and watch Married first, I always had my hair done and my, you know, I just always had my makeup and all the things, I also spent an hour in the bathroom to do that and I just loved it it was so much fun. But now fast forward and I have all these kids and I'm like, I just need a quick, simple routine. I'm so overwhelmed that even, I don't even have time to shower really, let alone do my hair and my makeup. And so I a long I just didn't do anything and I just showed up ⁓ how I was it was what it was, take near leave me kind of thing. But I wanted to feel good about myself and I wanted to, and I just kind of lost that feeling and so I've been trying to work on that ⁓ and I would look on. ⁓ like for like makeup routines or makeup tips or whatever and like these people have like so many products and so many gadgets to apply these products and I'm like that is so overwhelming that I just like swipe out and I feel defeated and I'm like never mind I'll just try again tomorrow and then I try again tomorrow and it's like every every makeup person or like even like influencer like even just like moms like you see their counters and it's like they have so many products and I'm like I do not want all that that is just overwhelming ⁓ and even if you to what makeup websites it's like Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: so many different options to choose from and it's just like decision fatigue immediately so that I just panic and I started like you know there's got to be another mom out there like me who wants to feel good wants to feel put together wants cleaner ingredients you know without having to like you know have to double check everything ⁓ and but doesn't ⁓ want you know of these I mean they just want something fast simple and easy ⁓ and I was ⁓ I think I Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Yeah. Jamie Otis Hehner: I just crazily, the thought wouldn't leave me and I wanted it for myself more than anything and so I went out and created Hendralux and it's very simple makeup that's very fast, it's dual focused so you know, like the lip also goes on the cheek, the bronzer contouring also can be used for your eye. Yeah and like the mascara is, I just love it, it's my all time favorite, it comes off nice and easily, like it goes on nice and easy but it also doesn't have to tug at your eyes to remove it. Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: and it's just very simple. have like a lip plump that I just love a good plump lip and so I put that on and it has vitamin E in it, it's nourishing and those are the four products and there are no more and I'm not gonna, there are going to be more options and varieties like with, maybe when I get my crap together but as of right now those are the four products that I use every single day and I'm literally wearing now and it's literally took me two minutes because I don't have more than two minutes and. But I always say it takes, know, like give yourself five minutes to apply it, but truly it takes me two minutes. I literally just go, you know, like just pop it on. And then I feel a little more put together throughout the day. And ⁓ yeah, so that's where Hendralux kind of came from. And the name Hendralux is all five of my babies, including my angel baby. Their name kind of all mixed together. I really love it. And I really, so far I've gotten, I mean, it's really in the grassroots startup stage. Like I don't have investors or, Jessielee Sittig: Mmm. Mwah. Jamie Otis Hehner: Like I didn't partner with some big company or anything. I'm literally just doing it myself, for myself and for other moms. so yeah, like ⁓ comes back to me. ⁓ inevitably, I, ⁓ know, I, like yesterday I should have been working on the website. You know where I was? I was at the school volunteering, like having lunch with my ⁓ two and then having, I volunteer at my son's kindergarten class. And so should I have been working on the website? Absolutely. But am I okay that I didn't? Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ wow. Jamie Otis Hehner: You know, part of me is like, yes, and other part of me is like, girl, you gotta get this thing up, like, because it's been so long. But I'm like, you know what, there's time for that, and my son's gonna be graduating kindergarten, and I'm like, I'm just not gonna miss a moment, like, I just can't. So, also, I was at Mel Robbins last weekend, so I'm like, I have to be there, you know, like, cannot miss, like, I just feel like, you know, when you take a little time for yourself, then you feel like, inevitably, that takes time away from your kids, and so it's just consistently trying to find that balance. But anyway, so that's Hendralux, that's where it came from, and I'm really hoping that it helps women who feel a little overwhelmed and just, you know, but wanna feel good, just give them a sense of like, okay, I can do this, because, you know, it doesn't take long, it's just five minutes, it's easy, and then when they go to the site, they're not having decision fatigue over like all the different options, because there really aren't that many options, and they can just feel good about it, and yeah. Jessielee Sittig: I love that. I have had the exact same situation where I've gone into Sephora or I've like gone onto a website and then like, and I just leave because I am so overwhelmed. Like I'm a simple girly like, give me some some bronzer and a little bit of blush and some mascara and I'm like happy and I do like to do that because I feel put together. So I love that one you guys have multi use products that like, you can use this as like Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. Jessielee Sittig: lips and eyeshadow and you know, like it's multi-use and that it's quick. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. Yeah, it's honestly so fast. I use my fingers to apply it, Because I do think that when you are on the go, I I always have a baby wipe. So I literally always just apply it with my fingers and then just wipe my hands off with the baby wipe. But maybe not everyone has it or maybe not everyone wants to use that. So I should probably offer a brush so they can use it. But for me personally, this is really so grassroots and exactly what I use, what I need, what I like. I feel like it's very, I don't know. So far it has been so, like the people who have bought it, I just am so thankful because it's really helping them feel better. that is. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: Oh truly, like in life, like what are we doing if we're not genuinely helping someone else in some way, or form? least that's how I feel. like, it's just you don't have a sense of purpose if you're, you know, if you're not helping someone. And so it feels so good when I get the review. They love it and that it's fast and easy and they feel more put down. I'm like, oh my God, that makes me so happy because same girl, like I need it too. So yeah. Jessielee Sittig: Mm. I love that. And I love that the name is like all of your babies. I think I love meaningful things like that. So I love that. Yeah, that you took the time and had the intention with the name for your family. think that's very sweet. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. yeah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I like who have thought that it's Jonathan Henley, Hendrix, Hawkins and Huxley could turn into Hendralux. Doesn't Hendralux sound an actual beauty brand in my opinion. Like it sounds so cool and it literally came from their name. yeah. Jessielee Sittig: Yeah, it's a cool name. That's really cool. I love it. So I know the website is being worked on. So can people go to your Instagram link and like your Instagram bio and buy it that way? Jamie Otis Hehner: Yes. I mean, I should really do a far better job of promoting myself in this brand, but I don't even think they can get it that way, which is... Jessielee Sittig: Okay, well you have an Instagram for it, like the Hendralux. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yes, I do. for it and I have like an email sign. It's honestly anybody who's part of it right now, I call them the founding members because there's not even a website. So all the ladies who have ordered, which there have been hundreds and hundreds and I feel so blessed for that because they're literally just trusting me truly. I mean, like there's not a website. They don't see a ton of reviews. I just started like sharing some reviews on Instagram, but it's they're just trusting me that and I'm like, wow, that is such an honor and I do not take it lightly and I will give you the absolute best customer service that I possibly can. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: and yeah, and I'm going to always forever keep them in this category of founding member because something special when someone like ⁓ you and believes in you and even wants to support you ⁓ much that they there's not even a website like they it's just wild and it's I'm so grateful to have these girls in my squad and so anyways, yeah, so this the site is hendraluxbeauty.com and eventually is going to be up. ⁓ until then you could go to Hendralux Beauty on Instagram or just JamieNOtis and Otis which is mine and ⁓ honestly don't share it too much there ⁓ I've seen other influencers who kind of create a brand and then that's all they talk about and it's like ⁓ me I really wanted to generate this community and like nurture this community. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Perfect. Jamie Otis Hehner: where it's really like momhood and womenhood. And I don't want to lose that by talking so much about this brand that I created. Like know it's not for everyone, but for the busy moms who want a simple, fast, easy routine, it is for you. And I hope that you find me and I want to find you. But if that's not you, I would love to still connect via just like my regular platform and become girlfriends that way. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Aww, I love that. Well, and I have to say, my daughter is also graduating from kindergarten. Jamie Otis Hehner: oh my gosh, really have the same timelines. It's so hard, right? But you know, for me, it's so weird because there are babies, but for me, it reminds me, I'm like, okay, I have two more. Are you like that too? I'm like, oh, it's not the last though, so it's okay, but I think I will be in a puddle when it's the twins because... Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. It's so weird. Jamie Otis Hehner: It's like, it's hard, like when you spend your whole life wanting, you know, your babies and then they start to grow up and you're like, you have to kind of like mourn that. Like, I don't know if that happens to you. I'm going to cry even talking about it. Because even for my daughter, I look back at pictures of her as a baby. And it's so long ago. And I have to just mourn. Kind of like, it sounds so bizarre. And I know I might sound crazy. But it's kind of like the loss of that, of breastfeeding and all night and snuggling. And ⁓ you're never going to get that again with this child. But you have to also then be excited for the years to come. Like now, ⁓ mean, we get to go shopping together. And she gets to tell me, ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Yes. Jamie Otis Hehner: like about, you know, girlfriend problems, but also like, you know, just all sorts of different things like girl life and for our son or like your daughter, our like, for them as well. And it's like, wow, I feel like life is just constantly a roller coaster, isn't it? It's just full of ebbs and flows and really we just have to stay in the now and in the moment because it goes by so fast. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. It's so true though, my mother-in-law always says like, of course she's like, I never want another baby. Like my sons are adult men. But what I would give to just have one hour to hold my babies again. I'm like, ⁓ that's the sweetest thing. And I feel the same way. I feel like, of course I'm emotional about my daughter graduating kinder and all these things. But when it's my boys, my last babies, I'm going to be like a blubbering Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. I know. Jessielee Sittig: wreck. I just because then you're never going to do that again. Like that. The chapter is over. ⁓ Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. Because that chapter, yeah, your life is over. And like, I know that you struggled with fertility as well. so like, it's like you've been like, you've wanted it for so long. And now it's just over. Like, like, I fought for this so hard for so many years. And now it's just Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: over? Like, I'm never gonna be pregnant again. I'm never gonna have a baby again. I'm never gonna breastfeed again. Like, I don't know. Like, it does something to my insides. It does hurt, but I also think about how stretched thin I am with each of my children now and I'm like, Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Jamie Otis Hehner: I think it would be doing every child a disservice if I had one more because I'm so stretched thin as it is and including the child that would come, you know, I just feel like... I would be even more stretched thin. and actually when we were at that summit, I talked to a mom who had six kids ⁓ and I was like, ⁓ wow, you know, what do you think of that? Because I've, ⁓ I'm like struggling closing this chapter I have four right now, ⁓ but I feel so stretched thin. she was like, don't have more, don't do it. And she was a mom of six and she was really serious. And she was like, don't do it. And I'm like, how can you say that when you have two more, you know, like that. Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Mm-hmm. Jamie Otis Hehner: But she was just saying how hard it is and it's true. mean, think unless you have family that really wants to be active and like be there or kind of, you know, tons of money and you can afford this help and not have the mom guilt, because let's be honest, even if you have all the money and you have all the help, well, there's mom guilt, you know, But anyways, yeah, ⁓ so I feel you, girl. Jessielee Sittig: I think that's like such a mom thing. So we are done having children. I scheduled my husband's vasectomy when I was pregnant with the boys. Jamie Otis Hehner: ⁓ wow, I'm sure you did, because, yeah. Jessielee Sittig: so uncomfortable. I mean, you know, I feel like we could have a whole nother podcast episode. Like I didn't even get a chance to ask you about like the twin delivery and so we'll have to we'll have to do like a follow up or something. But I just I knew that I couldn't do it again. I knew that like three was a great number. And I cried so much when he because he didn't actually get the physiognomy when I was pregnant. He got it, you know, when a few weeks postpartum, and I was just a mess. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. About. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jessielee Sittig: I was a mess and he was like, are you second guessing? Like, do you want to have more kids? I'm like, no, I don't want to have more kids. I'm just mourning that I'm never going to be pregnant again. And yeah. Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that isn't talked about either. And people are like instantly, ⁓ God, that is just not talked about enough. because I almost feel crazy admitting it out loud because like no one else admits this out loud that like, or maybe they don't go through it. And I am a little crazy. I don't know. But like, it's like, I feel like that's just not talked about enough. Like just mourning that. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true. Jamie Otis Hehner: loss of like, it almost feels like, ⁓ like our whole reason for existing, which is not our whole reason for existing. are, we exist for far more than just, you know, having babies. ⁓ However, it, don't know, it does, like that has been. my joy in life is to be able to get pregnant, to feel them move, and then to give birth, and then to hold your brand new baby, and then smell them. They smell so good. It's like I'm never gonna have that again. Now I can see why grandparents are like, on their kids, like, give me a grandbaby, give me a grandbaby, which is not fair, but I'm like, it's like maybe you get a glimpse of that again from your baby, you know? And I can see why they're so interested in that. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. So normally in the beginning of my podcast, ⁓ we just got like into the meat so quick. I didn't if you got to fill your cup today. I normally ask all my guests that. So do you, did you, or do you, are you going to tape it today? Jamie Otis Hehner: Yeah. ⁓ well, honestly. I have to say I think this whole podcast has just been a way for me to fill my cup. Thank you for listening me on about all the things because I didn't realize that maybe I needed to. And so thank you. This has been a little me time with my cup of tea and yeah, just chatting about all things life. So thank you. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Well, of course, and, you know, I mentioned this earlier, but I just want to say again, like I, I hope that you know that sharing your story, like the good and the bad and your hardships, it really is making a difference in people's lives. Jamie Otis Hehner: Thank you for that, because I feel like I really needed to hear that,