Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1160 - 3 Types of Conversations Your Family Needs to Master: An Interview With NYT Bestselling Author, Charles Duhigg

Transcript

#1160 - 3 Types of Conversations Your Family Needs to Master: An Interview With NYT Bestselling Author, Charles Duhigg · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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Speaker 1: Charles Duig is a Pulitzurprise winning journalist, New York Times
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Speaker 1: bestselling author who happens to be fascinated by how humans work,
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Speaker 1: from our habits to how we communicate. When he's not
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Speaker 1: writing bestsellers like the Power of Habit, which is a
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Speaker 1: personal favorite of mine and has been sitting on my
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Speaker 1: bookshelf for many years, and Smarter Fast at Better, he
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Speaker 1: is at home in Santa Cruz, California with his wife
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Speaker 1: and two sons, and based on what we are about
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Speaker 1: to talk about, my guess is that he's probably asking
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Speaker 1: them deep questions about their day, although fair warning, apparently
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Speaker 1: his kids sometimes tell him to stop trying out his
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Speaker 1: communication theories on them during dinner time. Charles wrote a
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Speaker 1: book called Supercommunicators. I've just finished reading it. Loved the book.
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Speaker 1: Doggie had far too many pages, colored in, far too
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Speaker 1: many pages, made copious notes, and it's already changed the
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Speaker 1: way that I'm talking with my family and engaging with them.
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Speaker 1: Charles joins me on the Happy Families podcast today. What
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Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for reaching out, Chiles.
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Speaker 2: For having me. I really appreciate it, Charles.
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Speaker 1: I want to just kick straight on with some conversation
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Speaker 1: points about what you've brought up in your book Super Communicators.
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Speaker 1: You write about three types of conversations that people have,
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Speaker 1: practical conversations, emotional conversations, and social conversations. Can you walk
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Speaker 1: us through what these look like in general? But I
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Speaker 1: really want to get specific about kids because quite often
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Speaker 1: what I find is parents are having very different conversations
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Speaker 1: with their kids than the kids trying to have with
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Speaker 1: their parents.
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Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, And for me, the journey to this book
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Speaker 2: actually kind of started it at home because of conversations
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Speaker 2: with my wife and my kids. And I so my kids,
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Speaker 2: my kids are now thirteen and sixteen, almost fourteen and seventeen,
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Speaker 2: and I only have two. I know you have sex,
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Speaker 2: which is which is allure.
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Speaker 1: There's still time for you to catch up, Charles. Just
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Speaker 1: keep at it.
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Speaker 2: I'll let my wife. So, yeah, we would get into
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Speaker 2: this pattern. So, like you know, when they were a
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Speaker 2: little bit younger, they would they would come to tell
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Speaker 2: me about something, and I would assume that they were
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Speaker 2: coming to tell me about it because they wanted to
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Speaker 2: be to solvent, right, because they their brother hit them,
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Speaker 2: or because they something happened at school, and I assumed
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Speaker 2: they were looking for my advice. I assumed, in other words,
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Speaker 2: that they wanted to have a practical conversation. But pretty
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Speaker 2: quickly what I realized, what all parents realize, is no, no, no, no.
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Speaker 2: When these children come to you, what they actually want
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Speaker 2: is they want to have an emotional conversation. And the
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Speaker 2: thing is that if what we've learned from neuroscience is
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Speaker 2: that if you're having different kinds of conversations at the
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Speaker 2: same time, you can't really hear each other. Right when
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Speaker 2: I'd come home from work and I would complain about
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Speaker 2: my day and my wife would say, oh, you know,
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Speaker 2: why don't you take your boss out to lunch. You
2:50
Speaker 2: guys get to know each other a little bit better,
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Speaker 2: I would get even more upset because I wanted to
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Speaker 2: have an emotional conversation. I want to tell her how
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Speaker 2: I felt, and she wanted to have a practical conversation.
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Speaker 2: She wanted to the problem. And those are both entirely
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Speaker 2: legitimate forms of communication. But when you're not having the
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Speaker 2: same kind of conversation at the same moment, you can't
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Speaker 2: connect with each other, you can't fully hear each other.
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Speaker 2: So you're exactly right when it comes to kids. Oftentimes,
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Speaker 2: the first thing we have to ask ourselves is what
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Speaker 2: kind of conversation is happening? And the way that we
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Speaker 2: do that is we look for certain words that are clues. Right,
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Speaker 2: are they describing their feelings. I feel upset or I
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Speaker 2: feel like that was really hard, or I'm a mad
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Speaker 2: or I'm frustrated. If they're using these feeling words, what
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Speaker 2: they're really telling us is I want to have an
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Speaker 2: emotional conversation. But if they come to us with very
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Speaker 2: sort of formulaic stuff like Dad, can I go to
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Speaker 2: the store? Dad? Can I do X? Dad? Why is
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Speaker 2: the sky blue? What we can listen for is that
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Speaker 2: they were having a practical conversation. They're in a practical mindset.
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Speaker 2: And then there's this social mindset, which is when we
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Speaker 2: have conversations about how we relate to each other or
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Speaker 2: society or the identities that are important to us. And
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Speaker 2: particularly with kids, whenever a kid says something about themselves,
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Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person who acts. I like to
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Speaker 2: why that's a social conversation. They're trying to tell us
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Speaker 2: how they see themselves.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that identity thing. When I listen to you describing that,
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Speaker 1: and I think about what I learned from the book Supercommunicators.
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Speaker 1: Something that I've started to do explicitly in my conversations
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Speaker 1: with my wife and my children and even with friends
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Speaker 1: and colleagues and clients, is explicitly and clearly ask what
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Speaker 1: is it that's important to you here? By asking that question,
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Speaker 1: I'm finding that they're telling me what it is that
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Speaker 1: they want. So my wife, Clytie will be telling me
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Speaker 1: about a challenge that she's experiencing, and I'll say, I'm
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Speaker 1: hearing what you're telling me, how do you how do
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Speaker 1: you want me to respond to you here? Like what
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Speaker 1: are you looking for here? And it felt clunky and
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Speaker 1: awkward to say it initially, but she looked at me.
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Speaker 1: Herrizonod up and she said, I just want you to
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Speaker 1: understand and hug.
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Speaker 2: It's amazing, isn't it. We do the same thing. And
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Speaker 2: I deal with my kids when they come and they
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Speaker 2: like when they're complaining about their brother hitting them, I say,
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Speaker 2: do you want me just to know about this or
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Speaker 2: do you want me to help you figure out a
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Speaker 2: solution for that? I love And inevitably they say, I
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Speaker 2: just want you to know. I just want you to
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Speaker 2: know that he did it, which of course is great.
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Speaker 1: About think about how much effort we save with that question, though,
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Speaker 1: because when you know that they just want you to know,
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Speaker 1: you don't now have to storm into the living room
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Speaker 1: with all guns blazing and say that's it, I've had enough.
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Speaker 1: How many times have I told you? And the few
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Speaker 1: row that errupts from there. By simply knowing that they
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Speaker 1: just want you to know, you can calmly say, huh, okay,
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Speaker 1: well now I know, I'm so glad you told me.
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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And there's a way that they teach
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Speaker 2: teachers to do this, particularly here in the US. They
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Speaker 2: teach them if if a student comes to you and
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Speaker 2: they have something important they want to talk about, the
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Speaker 2: first thing you should ask them is do you want
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Speaker 2: to be hugged? Do you want to be helped? Or
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Speaker 2: do you want to be heard, which, of course is
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Speaker 2: the three kinds of conversations right, the emotional, the practical,
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Speaker 2: and the social. And if you ask a kid that,
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Speaker 2: like do you want to be hugged helped to herd,
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Speaker 2: they know exactly what they want. They will tell you
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Speaker 2: right away. They'll say like, yeah, I need a hug
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Speaker 2: or no, no, no, I don't, I don't I don't need
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Speaker 2: you to help me with this. I just I just
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Speaker 2: want you to know what Jimmy said to me on
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Speaker 2: the on the playground. It's really important that we give
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Speaker 2: them agency to tell us what they want and need
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Speaker 2: out of a conversation, what kind of mindset their end,
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Speaker 2: because in doing so, we're actually teaching them to become
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Speaker 2: better communicators.
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Speaker 1: At the core of the work that I do, Charles,
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Speaker 1: I focus heavily on a theory that you may be
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Speaker 1: familiar with. It's called self determination theory. So yeah, research
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Speaker 1: is at Rochester University which Ryan and DC have spent
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Speaker 1: decades developing this profound theory. And at the very center
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Speaker 1: of that self determination theory is this concept of agency
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Speaker 1: or autonomy. People want to feel not that they are
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Speaker 1: completely free and independent, but rather that they are volitional,
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Speaker 1: that they get to make choices in harmony with their
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Speaker 1: values and what their long term goals are. As you
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Speaker 1: describe that heard helped or hugged. So in Australia we
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Speaker 1: could never do that because teachers and a lot of
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Speaker 1: other hug students. However, let me digress. Some years ago
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Speaker 1: I began teaching in my seminars. It sort of as
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Speaker 1: an offhanded joke that when my wife is upset. The
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Speaker 1: best thing and every husband should do this. The best
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Speaker 1: thing you can do is say to your wife, do
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Speaker 1: you want me to be with you? Like do you
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Speaker 1: want do you want to hug? Or do you just
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Speaker 1: want some space? And it's that same concept, right, it's
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Speaker 1: recognizing this is a person who is unloading, who is
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Speaker 1: experiencing really big emotions. And there's something else that I
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Speaker 1: teach explicitly and ongoing then that is that when our
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Speaker 1: emotions are high, our intelligence is low. Intelligence kind of
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Speaker 1: vacates the building once our reptilian lower brain kicks in
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Speaker 1: and we get all emotional. Brene Brown talks about how
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Speaker 1: where emotional beings first, which means that when emotions take over,
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Speaker 1: it's like our intellect has been bound and gagged and
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Speaker 1: stuffed in the butt in the boot, and the emotions
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Speaker 1: are driving down the freeway. And when we when we
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Speaker 1: ask that question, when we pause and say, hey, do
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Speaker 1: you want do you want to be hugged or helped
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Speaker 1: or heard? Do you want to do you want to
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Speaker 1: do you want to minute on your own or whatever
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Speaker 1: it might be, I feel as though there's this it's
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Speaker 1: almost like we hand agency back to the child. Or
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Speaker 1: back to our spouse.
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Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
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Speaker 1: And they get to step out of the emotion and say,
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Speaker 1: what what is it that I really going back to
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Speaker 1: the initial premise of my first question, we go back
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Speaker 1: to this point where we say what is it that
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Speaker 1: I most want in this conversation? Profoundly, I think.
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Speaker 2: That's really smart and and and one thing that I
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Speaker 2: like about how we're discussing this is what we're doing,
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Speaker 2: is we're asking questions. So think about when you're in
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Speaker 2: a conversation. Oftentimes, when we're going over a conversation, preparing
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Speaker 2: for a conversation in our head, what we're focusing on
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Speaker 2: is what we want to say. Right, this is the
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Speaker 2: thing I really want to say. This is an important conversation.
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Speaker 2: I want them to understand extra Y or Z. But
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Speaker 2: of course you know that the in self determination theory,
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Speaker 2: this locus of can control is really important. Right. Is
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Speaker 2: the locus of control something that's forced on me I
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Speaker 2: do other Is it an external lookus of control where
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Speaker 2: people force things on me? Or is it internal where
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Speaker 2: I get to choose and I'm in control of myself
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Speaker 2: and this conversation and my destiny. And when we ask
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Speaker 2: someone a question, what we are doing is we are
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Speaker 2: handing them control of the conversation. That doesn't mean we're
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Speaker 2: giving it up altogether, right, That doesn't mean that we're
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Speaker 2: just that we're going to follow them no matter where
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Speaker 2: they go. But what we're showing them is, instead of
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Speaker 2: just forcing you to listen to what I want to say,
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Speaker 2: I want us to control this conversation together. And when
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Speaker 2: we do that, that's when everyone suddenly achieves a sense
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Speaker 2: of psychological safety that lets us actually both agree and
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Speaker 2: disagree with each other.
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Speaker 1: I have a hypothesis by someone You've just said, this
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Speaker 1: idea of yeah, the idea of control. If you're trying
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Speaker 1: to control me, I take from that, I implicitly believe
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Speaker 1: that you don't trust my capacity as ability to resolve
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Speaker 1: a situation myself. You're stepping in and saying that you
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Speaker 1: need to be the unilateral arbiter of all things related
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Speaker 1: to this situation because you don't trust me. In other words,
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Speaker 1: you're judging me to be inferior or incompetent, or incapable,
10:13
Speaker 1: or something like that. And the thought that I had
10:15
Speaker 1: as you were describing that was that we often describe
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Speaker 1: the opposite of love to be hate, but My hypothesis
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Speaker 1: is that the opposite of love could be judgment. That is,
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Speaker 1: when when a person's feeling judged, they don't feel loved.
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Speaker 1: And by doing what you're describing, what we're actually my
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Speaker 1: sense is we're removing judgment from it by saying, hey,
10:39
Speaker 1: let's control this together, let's work on this as a
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Speaker 1: as a team. Let me empower you to work through this.
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Speaker 1: I believe in you, I trust you.
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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And you had mentioned
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Speaker 2: before this concept of deep questions, and this gets exactly
10:52
Speaker 2: to what you were just talking about, because there's an
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Speaker 2: interesting question which questions are the right questions to ask?
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Speaker 2: Why do some questions better than others and sort of
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Speaker 2: drawing people out? And what researchers have found is that
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Speaker 2: the most effective questions and conversations that would are known
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Speaker 2: as deep questions or questions that ask about your values
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Speaker 2: or your beliefs or your experiences. And that can sound
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Speaker 2: a little bit intimidating, but it's as simple as like
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Speaker 2: if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, oh,
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Speaker 2: what hospital do you work at? Saying oh, oh, what
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Speaker 2: made you decide to go to medical school? Great? What
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Speaker 2: do you like about being a doctor? When we ask
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Speaker 2: people how they see the world rather than the facts
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Speaker 2: about the world, what they're doing is exactly what you
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Speaker 2: just said. We're inviting them to be able to take
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Speaker 2: authority and control in that conversation, to share control with us,
11:46
Speaker 2: and to shape how they believe we see them. And
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Speaker 2: there's nothing more trusting. There's nothing more trusting in this
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Speaker 2: entire world than asking someone a deep question. Right. It
11:55
Speaker 2: doesn't mean I have to agree with you with whatever
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Speaker 2: you say, but what I say to you, Hey, I'm wondering,
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Speaker 2: how do you see the world? What do you make
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Speaker 2: of it? Here's an open canvas. Go ahead and paint
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Speaker 2: the picture that you think is best. You to help
12:08
Speaker 2: me understand. It's a huge act of trust, and I
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Speaker 2: think we feel that.
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Speaker 1: The late Stephen Covey, author of Seven Habits Highly Effective People,
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Speaker 1: said it's a greater compliment to be trusted than to
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Speaker 1: be loved. And I feel like that's a really profound
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Speaker 1: way of demonstrating that by bringing people in and making
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Speaker 1: that happen. So here's what I'm hearing. Super communicators on
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Speaker 1: an agency, they withhold judgment, They ask deep questions. I
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Speaker 1: want to come back to some deep questions a little
12:39
Speaker 1: bit later. But overarching, they understand the purpose of a conversation.
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Speaker 1: They understand whether it's a practical conversation or an emotional conversation,
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Speaker 1: or a social conversation, a problem solving, or a hugging
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Speaker 1: or an understanding a person kind of conversation. Just let
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Speaker 1: me change gears for a sec You talk about in
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Speaker 1: the book in one of the first couple of chapters,
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Speaker 1: this idea of neural entrainment. Fascinating idea that our brain
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Speaker 1: waves actually sync up during good conversations. So in my home,
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Speaker 1: the very best conversations that we have are either around
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Speaker 1: the dinner table or when a child is struggling and
13:20
Speaker 1: engages with me so that we can work through her
13:22
Speaker 1: having a hard time. And I feel that in trainment.
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Speaker 1: I genuinely there's something that happens in the interaction where
13:29
Speaker 1: you can feel, hauh, we're in sync.
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Speaker 2: Now.
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Speaker 1: Can you describe what neural entrainment is and tell me
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Speaker 1: what does this tell us about the family dinner conversations,
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Speaker 1: the bedtime chats that we're having with our kids, and
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Speaker 1: how we can create more of this neural entrainment in
13:44
Speaker 1: our discussions with our family.
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Speaker 2: It's really interesting, and this is one of the most
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Speaker 2: replicated and in some senses profound finding of the last
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Speaker 2: ten years in neuroscience. When we're in a conversation with
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Speaker 2: someone and when we and we're really understanding each other,
14:00
Speaker 2: our bodies and our brains change, right, So without us
14:03
Speaker 2: realizing it, our breath patterns will start to match each other,
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Speaker 2: our heart rates will start to match each other. If
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Speaker 2: we're in a similar lighted environment, even over a zoom
14:13
Speaker 2: call like this are the dilation of our eyes will
14:16
Speaker 2: begin to mirror each other, and inside our brain, if
14:19
Speaker 2: you could look at people's thoughts, what you would see
14:21
Speaker 2: is that as they have this conversation, their thoughts become
14:24
Speaker 2: more and more similar. They look the same when you're
14:28
Speaker 2: looking at those like little graphs that show how people
14:31
Speaker 2: are thinking. And that kind of makes sense when you
14:33
Speaker 2: think about it, because if I tell you about an
14:36
Speaker 2: emotion I'm feeling, you actually feel that emotion a little bit, right,
14:39
Speaker 2: Or if I tell you about an idea, you experience
14:41
Speaker 2: that idea a little bit. So it would make sense
14:43
Speaker 2: that what's going on inside my head is the same
14:44
Speaker 2: thing that's going on inside your head. But what we've
14:47
Speaker 2: learned is that as a product of evolution, because of
14:49
Speaker 2: how our brain has evolved to make us great communicators
14:53
Speaker 2: and humans are super communicators kind of naturally, that two
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Speaker 2: things happen. First of all, when our thoughts start to
15:03
Speaker 2: become similar, we understand each other much better. We actually
15:08
Speaker 2: can listen much better. It's not like as if we're
15:11
Speaker 2: like you know, suddenly hearing different words from before, but
15:15
Speaker 2: we're hearing all of the words and noticing all of
15:18
Speaker 2: the words rather than getting distracted. So that's the first thing.
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Speaker 2: The second thing that happens is that there's often a
15:23
Speaker 2: dopaminic release, so in a cannabi voids and dorphins. When
15:30
Speaker 2: you have a great conversation you feel wonderful, it's because
15:33
Speaker 2: your brain is actually releasing serotonin allowing you to feel
15:39
Speaker 2: wonderful about that conversation. And the reason why is because
15:42
Speaker 2: the basal ganglia, the part of the brain that creates habits,
15:46
Speaker 2: it wants you to have good conversations. It wants you
15:48
Speaker 2: to connect with other people. Throughout history evolution, people who
15:53
Speaker 2: connect with other people tend to live longer and succeed more.
15:56
Speaker 2: So there's been this evolutionary pressure for us to get
16:00
Speaker 2: better and better better at communication, and as a result,
16:03
Speaker 2: there's an actual neurochemical rewards signal when we connect with someone.
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Speaker 1: I'm so engaged in what you're saying that I totally
16:10
Speaker 1: lost trying to thought.
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Speaker 2: It's totally okay, it's kind of reconnected. The best conversations
16:17
Speaker 2: the best kind of and this is actually a good point.
16:19
Speaker 2: So the best conversations actually look like a mess, right,
16:23
Speaker 2: Like if you were to transcribe the best conversations you've
16:26
Speaker 2: ever had, Yeah, and look at that, the transcription would
16:29
Speaker 2: look like a mess. Right When you talk to your
16:31
Speaker 2: wife and you guys, really you're interrupting each other. You're
16:33
Speaker 2: starting ideas without finishing them. You're like making these little
16:36
Speaker 2: side comments because when you're in the moment, it's all
16:41
Speaker 2: about that connection. It's not about saying things eloquently. It's
16:44
Speaker 2: not about remembering what your next question is. It's about
16:47
Speaker 2: being present.
16:48
Speaker 1: As you described that, one of the one of the
16:50
Speaker 1: great bug bess that I have when I listen back
16:52
Speaker 1: to the Happy Families podcast is that I get so
16:55
Speaker 1: excited about what we're talking about that I listened to Kylie,
16:57
Speaker 1: who is my co host for most of our podcast episodes,
17:02
Speaker 1: I interrupt her. I interrupt her all the time because
17:05
Speaker 1: I want to jump in and I want to say this,
17:07
Speaker 1: or I want to say that. And I kind of
17:09
Speaker 1: beat myself up about that because it means to me
17:11
Speaker 1: that I'm not being a great communicator. I'm certainly not
17:13
Speaker 1: being a good listener. Something that you said in the book, though,
17:16
Speaker 1: is that we need to not beat ourselves up so
17:19
Speaker 1: much when there's interruptions going on, because there's a really
17:22
Speaker 1: big upside to interruptions.
17:24
Speaker 2: So let me ask you this. If I was to
17:26
Speaker 2: ask Kayley whether she feels like you interrupt too much,
17:28
Speaker 2: what would she say?
17:29
Speaker 1: Probably? I do talk a little bit too much, and
17:33
Speaker 1: I do talk over her from time to time, but
17:35
Speaker 1: it's not in a male dominant way. I'm so into
17:38
Speaker 1: what you're saying, and you've just reminded me of this
17:40
Speaker 1: awesome thing, and I've got to tell you about it,
17:41
Speaker 1: and it's so good. It's that kind of interruption. It's
17:44
Speaker 1: like the interruptions around our dinner table at night, when
17:48
Speaker 1: we're having our family conversations. It's so hard to get
17:51
Speaker 1: a word in because, well, as you can imagine, with
17:53
Speaker 1: six daughters, there's a lot of communication. There's a lot
17:56
Speaker 1: of emotions, but there's so much interruption and no one
18:00
Speaker 1: gets to really finish a full or a sentence, which
18:02
Speaker 1: is infuriating in some ways, and yet it's delights.
18:06
Speaker 2: Kind of wonderful. Yeah, it's because everyone's in the conversation.
18:10
Speaker 2: Everyone feels like they're participing. So you're exactly right. What
18:12
Speaker 2: we know about interruptions is that interruptions are actually a
18:16
Speaker 2: really good signal as long as they're going two ways. Right,
18:21
Speaker 2: So if I always interrupt you and you never interrupt me,
18:25
Speaker 2: then often what happens is that you are speaking far
18:28
Speaker 2: less because you start saying something and I interrupt you,
18:30
Speaker 2: and then I'm monologue for a while and you don't
18:32
Speaker 2: interrupt me. And then finally you got a chance to
18:35
Speaker 2: say something and you start saying something and then I
18:37
Speaker 2: interrupt you again. Right, So the interruptions aren't the problem.
18:42
Speaker 2: It's what's known as equality and conversational turn taking. So
18:45
Speaker 2: equality and conversational turn taking is basically just this this
18:48
Speaker 2: thing that they measure and experiments how much did each
18:52
Speaker 2: person talk compare to everyone else. And it's not even
18:56
Speaker 2: about like the number of words you said, it's not
18:57
Speaker 2: even about the minutes you spent It's often about how
19:00
Speaker 2: many times you piped up, because if one person is
19:04
Speaker 2: interrupting and nobody else says, that person is going to
19:07
Speaker 2: pape up a lot more frequently. But if everyone is
19:10
Speaker 2: interrupting each other, if everyone says, oh my god, that's
19:12
Speaker 2: such a good idea, well what about this, then it
19:14
Speaker 2: feels like we have that equality and conversational turntaking, and
19:18
Speaker 2: that is critical to making people, particularly a group of people,
19:23
Speaker 2: feel like they're connected to each other.
19:25
Speaker 1: Well, Kylie's still talking to me, so I'm going to
19:27
Speaker 1: say that we've got a quality going just fine.
19:38
Speaker 2: Charles.
19:38
Speaker 1: I'm a really big believer that nobody wants to be fixed.
19:40
Speaker 1: I've never had any of my children look at me
19:42
Speaker 1: and say, Dad, it sounds like you've got a solution
19:44
Speaker 1: to make me better, let me hear it. My wife
19:47
Speaker 1: has never asked me, honey, why don't you fix me?
19:50
Speaker 1: So that everything's just right? No one is ever begging
19:53
Speaker 1: for us to fix them. Why do we implicitly desire
19:57
Speaker 1: to fix other people?
20:00
Speaker 2: So I'll note that this is not a universal condition, right,
20:04
Speaker 2: There are there are some people, probably your wife, right
20:09
Speaker 2: who who like when a kid brings a problem to them,
20:11
Speaker 2: they just they know that, they like to just say, oh,
20:14
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, honey, that sounds really hard, rather than trying.
20:17
Speaker 1: To fix it. Forward them okay one of those people.
20:20
Speaker 2: What often happens is that we get habituated in a
20:23
Speaker 2: certain kind of conversation. So one of the questions I
20:27
Speaker 2: get asked a lot is like, do women and men
20:29
Speaker 2: communicate differently? Do their brains work differently? Or women from
20:32
Speaker 2: Mars and men are from venus or whatever it is.
20:35
Speaker 2: And the answer is no. All the research shows men
20:38
Speaker 2: and women communicate the same way, but they are often
20:41
Speaker 2: habituated differently in their younger years. Right, conversations that are emotional.
20:47
Speaker 2: Women tend to have more of them in their teenage years,
20:50
Speaker 2: and as a result, they're just more comfortable with them.
20:52
Speaker 2: Men oftentimes learn to have emotional conversations that seem dressed
20:57
Speaker 2: up like practical conversation. I come to you and I
21:01
Speaker 2: say I've got a problem and you're doing X and
21:03
Speaker 2: it's really impacting our budget. And what I'm really saying
21:07
Speaker 2: is like, I'm really upset, and I need you to
21:10
Speaker 2: hear that I'm upset. And the fact that I'm bringing
21:12
Speaker 2: up all this practical language about budgets and problems. That's
21:16
Speaker 2: actually just a disguise because I'm uncomfortable talking about emotions
21:20
Speaker 2: and so I'm more comfortable posing it in the language
21:25
Speaker 2: of practicality. But what's really important about this is to
21:29
Speaker 2: recognize that even though we have these habits, habits can
21:33
Speaker 2: change very, very easily. And in fact, one of the
21:36
Speaker 2: things about habits is that they are very delicate. They're
21:39
Speaker 2: like gossamer threads. Right. Once you recognize that a habit
21:43
Speaker 2: is there, it takes the smallest amount of effort to
21:46
Speaker 2: disrupt it. And that's why, for instance, asking these questions
21:49
Speaker 2: you want to be hugged, helped to heard, you know,
21:50
Speaker 2: asking deep questions. That's one of the reasons they're so
21:53
Speaker 2: powerful is because they short circuit our habit in our head,
21:57
Speaker 2: which is, my kid came to me with an issue,
22:00
Speaker 2: they want me to fix it. I'm going to tell
22:01
Speaker 2: them how to fix it. When we ask that question.
22:05
Speaker 2: As much as we're asking them what do you really
22:07
Speaker 2: care about, we're also doing a service to ourselves to say, oh, habit,
22:11
Speaker 2: let me like put the brakes on really quickly. Let's
22:13
Speaker 2: just take a step back before I respond automatically and
22:16
Speaker 2: think through like what this kid really needs.
22:19
Speaker 1: Yesterday had one of my daughters come to me really
22:22
Speaker 1: struggling with something, and I so badly wanted to fix it.
22:26
Speaker 1: I so badly wanted to fix her. I so badly
22:27
Speaker 1: wanted to step in and say, well, I think blah
22:30
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah, if you just do this. I mean,
22:32
Speaker 1: I've got a PhD in psychology, i know how to
22:35
Speaker 1: be useful, I've got decades more life experience. There's all
22:39
Speaker 1: of these reasons why I can simply step in and
22:41
Speaker 1: make the problem go away. But thinking about our conversation
22:44
Speaker 1: that was scheduled for today, I paused, and I looked
22:48
Speaker 1: at her, and I put my hand in hers and
22:51
Speaker 1: really softly just said, well, that sounds really tough. And
22:54
Speaker 1: it was just this gorgeous moment where she leant into
22:58
Speaker 1: me and she gave me a really big hug, and
23:00
Speaker 1: after she hugged me, she said, I love you, Dad,
23:02
Speaker 1: and whooped. Why a super communicator, And it was like
23:09
Speaker 1: the problem was fixed, it was solved, and all I
23:12
Speaker 1: had to say was, Wow, that sounds really tough. It
23:15
Speaker 1: was well and gorgeous.
23:16
Speaker 2: And the best example of this. I love that story because, like,
23:19
Speaker 2: if you think back to the conversations you had with
23:21
Speaker 2: your parents, or I think back to the conversations I
23:23
Speaker 2: had with my parents. There are very few conversations that
23:26
Speaker 2: stand out in my mind where my dad gave me
23:29
Speaker 2: a piece of advice and I was like, gosh, darn it,
23:31
Speaker 2: he's right, everything right. It might have happened. It probably
23:35
Speaker 2: did happen, but I have managed to forget all of them.
23:38
Speaker 2: But the conversations I remember with my dad were the
23:42
Speaker 2: ones where either I told him how I was feeling,
23:45
Speaker 2: or he asked me something and I said something in
23:48
Speaker 2: response that kind of surprised me. We tend to remember
23:52
Speaker 2: the conversations that are connection as opposed to just information exchange,
23:57
Speaker 2: and it's really hard. It's really hard to connect when
23:59
Speaker 2: like one person and has all the answers and one
24:01
Speaker 2: person has all the questions. That's not a meeting of equals,
24:05
Speaker 2: and as a result, it's very hard to intrigue with
24:07
Speaker 2: each other.
24:09
Speaker 1: That is just beautiful. I love as you said that
24:13
Speaker 1: I reflected on the conversations that I've had with my
24:15
Speaker 1: parents that mean the most to me, and it's exactly
24:19
Speaker 1: the same. It's those connection conversations. Now, Charles, you you
24:23
Speaker 1: slay a sacred cow in some ways in this book.
24:26
Speaker 1: For years, I've been teaching about the importance of perspective taking.
24:29
Speaker 1: A wonderful research from the sixties and seventies. Martin Hoffman
24:33
Speaker 1: talks all about the power of perspective taking, and then
24:36
Speaker 1: we've got people like him Ginnott, and we've got John Gotman.
24:39
Speaker 1: All these people teach about how we've got to stand
24:41
Speaker 1: in the shoes of another person and take their perspective
24:44
Speaker 1: to communicate well and be empathic. But you suggest in
24:48
Speaker 1: Super Communicators that perspective taking can sometimes backfire, and you
24:53
Speaker 1: make a recommendation for what to do instead. This is
24:57
Speaker 1: not to discount the validity or usefulness of taking bit
25:00
Speaker 1: to hot life, that it doesn't always work. Can you
25:03
Speaker 1: describe how it might be our undoing in some circumstances
25:08
Speaker 1: and what you suggest to do instead.
25:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And there's been a number of researchers who
25:13
Speaker 2: over looked at this Nick Epley at the University of Chicago,
25:16
Speaker 2: a number of them particularly looking at at prejudice and
25:19
Speaker 2: how we fight prejudice. You're exactly right, perspective taking hand work.
25:25
Speaker 2: But it assumes that I have the ability to put
25:27
Speaker 2: myself into your shoes in a way that is accurate. Right, So,
25:32
Speaker 2: if you and I are talking about parenting and you
25:35
Speaker 2: mentioned some parenting problem that you have, I can probably
25:38
Speaker 2: stand in your shoes and see how you saw the situation.
25:41
Speaker 2: But if, on the other hand, we were talking about
25:44
Speaker 2: what it's like to live in Gaza, and I'm an
25:48
Speaker 2: American who's never been to the Middle East, it's ridiculous
25:52
Speaker 2: to say that like, perspective taking is gonna work. I
25:54
Speaker 2: have no idea what that's like. I can't imagine myself
25:56
Speaker 2: into that person's shoes, or to imagine myself as an Israeli. Right,
26:00
Speaker 2: How am I going to figure out how to take
26:02
Speaker 2: the perspectives of these two people who see things so
26:06
Speaker 2: differently than I do and as each other, without having
26:10
Speaker 2: any basis to put myselves in their shoes, to imagine
26:13
Speaker 2: what it would be like to be them. And so
26:16
Speaker 2: into this breach, these researchers have coming forward and they said, look,
26:20
Speaker 2: perspective taking work sometimes, but there are times when it
26:23
Speaker 2: doesn't work, when when it's just the experience that someone
26:26
Speaker 2: is having is too foreign, too alien to your own
26:29
Speaker 2: experience to actually it's presumptuous to assume that you know
26:33
Speaker 2: what it's like for them. And in that case, instead
26:35
Speaker 2: of doing perspective taking, what we should do is perspective getting.
26:40
Speaker 2: Just ask some a question, Ask them like, what is
26:42
Speaker 2: it like to live in Gaza right now? What is
26:44
Speaker 2: it like to be an Israeli citizen right now? I
26:46
Speaker 2: know that you guys see this thing differently. I really
26:49
Speaker 2: want to understand how both of you see it. We
26:52
Speaker 2: don't have to guess what it's like to stand in
26:55
Speaker 2: their shoes. We can ask them to tell us what
26:57
Speaker 2: it's like to stand in their shoes, and then when
26:59
Speaker 2: we ask follow up questions, we start to find ways
27:03
Speaker 2: to relate to their experience. And so this isn't to
27:07
Speaker 2: say that we shouldn't teach perspective taking, but perspective getting.
27:10
Speaker 2: Teaching people to ask questions, particularly hard questions, is really important.
27:16
Speaker 1: Charles, Let's change up the pace for a moment and
27:19
Speaker 1: do a lightning round.
27:21
Speaker 2: Sure.
27:22
Speaker 1: The idea of a lightning round, as I'm sure you know,
27:24
Speaker 1: is we could spend half an hour in each of
27:26
Speaker 1: these questions. By the way, but just the first thing
27:29
Speaker 1: that pops into your head as I asked the questions.
27:31
Speaker 1: We'll see how we go. First question, favorite question to
27:34
Speaker 1: ask your kids at dinner.
27:37
Speaker 2: I asked them, what was the most surprising thing that
27:39
Speaker 2: happened that day or the most interesting.
27:42
Speaker 1: Huh, okay, most surprising thing that you've learned. As you've
27:45
Speaker 1: written this book about communicating with children or teens.
27:50
Speaker 2: How good we are at it? You know. One of
27:52
Speaker 2: the theories of the book is, and this is held
27:55
Speaker 2: up for the research, we are all super communicators at
27:58
Speaker 2: one time or another, and oftentimes becoming a consistent supercommunicator
28:02
Speaker 2: is just about learning to listen to our instincts and
28:05
Speaker 2: learning how conversations work. But if you think about it,
28:08
Speaker 2: parents have meaningful conversations with their kids all the time,
28:11
Speaker 2: and that's kind of amazing because besides their genetics, oftentimes
28:15
Speaker 2: they have nothing in common.
28:17
Speaker 1: I was really surprised by that answer. Question number three.
28:20
Speaker 1: Best way to start a difficult conversation with your spouse
28:24
Speaker 1: or partner.
28:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, the best way, and again the science backs us up,
28:27
Speaker 2: is to start by saying, this is going to be
28:30
Speaker 2: an awkward conversation, and I apologize in advance that it's
28:32
Speaker 2: going to be awkward, and actually the awkwardness is part
28:34
Speaker 2: of the reason I want to have it with you.
28:36
Speaker 2: And I might say the wrong thing, because sometimes like
28:40
Speaker 2: the gap between my brain and my lips is too big,
28:42
Speaker 2: and I hope you'll forgive me. And if you say
28:44
Speaker 2: the wrong thing, I promise I'll forgive you, like I'll
28:46
Speaker 2: give you a chance to like rewind the tape and
28:48
Speaker 2: say it a little bit better. When we do that,
28:51
Speaker 2: when we acknowledge the awkwardness, when we give each other
28:54
Speaker 2: the grace to make mistakes, we're lowering the temperature, and
28:59
Speaker 2: that's critical.
29:00
Speaker 1: I recommend the same approach when talking about tricky topics
29:03
Speaker 1: with children. I want to have one of those awkward
29:04
Speaker 1: conversations that some people really struggle with with their parents
29:07
Speaker 1: and children. And the kids are suddenly a little bit intrigued,
29:10
Speaker 1: but also defenses are down. It's like, Okay, this could
29:13
Speaker 1: be awkward, but this is obviously important.
29:16
Speaker 2: That's in the car. When I'm in the car with
29:18
Speaker 2: my kids, I often will say, like, okay, let's talk
29:21
Speaker 2: about puberty, because they go da, they're not going anywhere.
29:26
Speaker 2: The security the dolls are locked, do you know what?
29:29
Speaker 2: Like it takes like thirty seconds for them to be like,
29:31
Speaker 2: I do have a question.
29:32
Speaker 1: Actually, what's the worst communication happened that you had to unlearn?
29:37
Speaker 1: I mean you say that this book was about you
29:39
Speaker 1: learning to be a better communicator.
29:41
Speaker 2: One of the things that's most toxic to a conversation
29:45
Speaker 2: is when we control, try to control the other person
29:47
Speaker 2: in the conversation. And as you know, there's this there's
29:51
Speaker 2: this thing that happens in when we're talking to spouses
29:53
Speaker 2: called kitchen sinking. We start arguing about one thing, and
29:56
Speaker 2: suddenly we're arguing about everything. Right, we're not just where
30:00
Speaker 2: we're going to go out for Christmas, but like your
30:02
Speaker 2: mom hates me, and I wish that if you made
30:04
Speaker 2: more money, we could go on nicer trips like you're
30:06
Speaker 2: just And that's toxic. That is that is a clear
30:10
Speaker 2: sign that something is wrong in a relationship. And I
30:13
Speaker 2: think the reason why we do this kitchen thinking is
30:16
Speaker 2: because we want to try and control the other person.
30:18
Speaker 2: We want to try and control what the conversations about.
30:20
Speaker 2: We want to try and control control what you're allowed
30:23
Speaker 2: to say and what you're not allowed to say, and
30:24
Speaker 2: whether you're on the defense or the offense. And when
30:27
Speaker 2: we change that and we say, look, I have the
30:29
Speaker 2: sensing to control things, but instead of trying to control you,
30:33
Speaker 2: I'm going to control the environment with you like, like,
30:35
Speaker 2: let's have this conversation, you know, not at two o'clock
30:38
Speaker 2: in the morning, Let's wait until we're both well rested
30:40
Speaker 2: and have it at nine in the morning. Or I'm
30:43
Speaker 2: going to control I'm going to I with you. I
30:45
Speaker 2: want to control the boundaries of the conversation, Like we're
30:47
Speaker 2: going to talk about where we're going on holiday, We're
30:49
Speaker 2: not going to talk about moms, We're not going to
30:51
Speaker 2: talk about money. When we share control and this is
30:55
Speaker 2: something I feel like I learned to do better. What
30:59
Speaker 2: we're really doing is we're empowering the other person to
31:02
Speaker 2: have a conversation with us. So it doesn't it's not
31:04
Speaker 2: an argument, it's a it's a cooperation.
31:07
Speaker 1: Just a few more. What's your gout to phrase when
31:09
Speaker 1: you've messed things up with your family?
31:12
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean usually just say I'm sorry.
31:16
Speaker 2: I try and apologize to my kids a lot because
31:18
Speaker 2: I want to show them that that making mistakes is
31:21
Speaker 2: part of life. And so yeah, so I just say like, hey, Ali,
31:25
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, Like you asked me that question, I
31:28
Speaker 2: was short with you and that that was not appropriate
31:30
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry I did that.
31:31
Speaker 1: Charles, what's the most unexpected place that you've had a
31:33
Speaker 1: great conversation.
31:35
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I mean all the time, like in
31:38
Speaker 2: an Uber, Like sometimes you have these conversations with Uber
31:41
Speaker 2: drivers and like and some and it's okay not to
31:44
Speaker 2: have a conversation with Uber driver. Sometimes you get an
31:46
Speaker 2: Uber you just want to check your phone. But sometimes
31:48
Speaker 2: you have this conversation with an Uber driver, and like,
31:50
Speaker 2: they have these amazing life stories, right, they like cross
31:54
Speaker 2: the oceans and send money back to their families, and
31:58
Speaker 2: you're part of something important by connecting with them.
32:02
Speaker 1: I really really struggle with those conversations. I get off
32:05
Speaker 1: an airplane, jump in the uber or or the cab
32:08
Speaker 1: and think, ah, can I just put my headphones on
32:11
Speaker 1: and pretend? But as you've said, some wonderful and enriching
32:17
Speaker 1: conversations have been the result of being willing to engage
32:19
Speaker 1: with another person. I love that.
32:20
Speaker 2: And you absolutely can just put your headphones on, like
32:23
Speaker 2: there's no obligation of a conversation. But I think oftentimes
32:26
Speaker 2: we hesitate to have that conversation because we're worried about
32:29
Speaker 2: how it's going to end. We're worried about how we're
32:31
Speaker 2: going to like tie it off, or or what if
32:33
Speaker 2: they like, start telling me some story and I'm bored
32:35
Speaker 2: and I want to do something else. And yet yet
32:39
Speaker 2: that all the research shows those worries are overblown in
32:43
Speaker 2: our mind, because every single person who has those worries
32:47
Speaker 2: they have managed to curtail a conversation pretty effectively and easily.
32:51
Speaker 2: Yeah right. Sometimes it's just a matter of being like, oh,
32:53
Speaker 2: that's so interesting, I gotta I gotta check my phone now,
32:55
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna I'm gonna do that, or sometimes just
32:57
Speaker 2: like being like, oh, good, good, good to hear you know,
33:00
Speaker 2: and you stop asking questions and the music comes on.
33:03
Speaker 2: We all know how to stop conversations if we want
33:05
Speaker 2: to stop a conversation, it's but we sometimes we forget
33:08
Speaker 2: that we know how to do that, and it's the
33:10
Speaker 2: awkwardness of it that sets us off.
33:12
Speaker 1: Two more questions for the Lightning Round. Number one, Best
33:15
Speaker 1: conversation starter at a party?
33:18
Speaker 2: Oh so, I think the best one depends what kind
33:22
Speaker 2: of party you're at. My favorite question is when is
33:25
Speaker 2: the last time you cried in front of another person?
33:28
Speaker 1: Oof? Yeah, you talk about that in the book. Yeah,
33:31
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I don't know if I'm courageous
33:33
Speaker 1: enough to ask somebody that I've just you know it
33:35
Speaker 1: that question.
33:36
Speaker 2: Decide that it's going to be the third question you
33:38
Speaker 2: ask someone, and by the time you ask it, it's
33:41
Speaker 2: going to feel so natural because those first two questions,
33:44
Speaker 2: those first two questions are going to be questions that
33:46
Speaker 2: are real questions.
33:48
Speaker 1: Last one, what's the most powerful question that someone has
33:51
Speaker 1: ever asked you?
33:52
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a really good question. I don't know. I
33:57
Speaker 2: don't know, because if a question is asked in the
33:59
Speaker 2: right spirit, they're all powerful, right, Like, I don't know.
34:05
Speaker 2: Maybe when like one of my parents asked me why
34:07
Speaker 2: I wanted to propose to my wife or what I
34:09
Speaker 2: liked about her? But that's not it. That's it. This
34:12
Speaker 2: was in college. That's not a question that like was
34:15
Speaker 2: a deep question for them. We were literally in the
34:17
Speaker 2: car and my mom was like, oh, yeah, tell me
34:19
Speaker 2: about telling me about Liz. What's you like? What do
34:21
Speaker 2: you like about her? And like it was at that
34:24
Speaker 2: moment that I was like, oh, oh, I'm in love
34:25
Speaker 2: with her. I'm going to marry this person.
34:28
Speaker 1: I have two quick responses to that. First of all, Yeah,
34:31
Speaker 1: I was with some friends in Sydney and they were
34:33
Speaker 1: asking me what I loved about Kylie, And it was
34:35
Speaker 1: that same question that made me realize that I needed
34:37
Speaker 1: to go home and propose that day.
34:40
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, it.
34:41
Speaker 1: Was literally just that question of what do you like
34:43
Speaker 1: about her? And the more I answered the question, the
34:44
Speaker 1: more I thought, why are we not already married? I mean,
34:47
Speaker 1: it was really that profound and that powerful. And I
34:50
Speaker 1: guess the follow up to that is you mentioned that
34:52
Speaker 1: this was a long time ago. Kylie and I are
34:54
Speaker 1: about to celebrate our twenty seventh wedding anniversary, congratulations. And
34:58
Speaker 1: I was telling someon about that just the other day,
35:01
Speaker 1: and that person looked at me and asked, so sincerely
35:04
Speaker 1: and so beautifully, what do you think you've done to
35:09
Speaker 1: have such a happy marriage for twenty seven years? And
35:11
Speaker 1: I sat there and I almost started weeping as I
35:14
Speaker 1: thought about the beauty of the relationship that we share,
35:17
Speaker 1: but also the just the I loved the question. I
35:21
Speaker 1: just wanted to sort of sink into that person's arms
35:23
Speaker 1: and say, thank you so much for asking. Let's just
35:25
Speaker 1: talk about relationships and let me tell you about Clylie.
35:28
Speaker 1: For the next hour or two, it was, Oh, I
35:30
Speaker 1: just wanted to open up everything to this person because
35:33
Speaker 1: it felt like such a deep and vulnerable question.
35:36
Speaker 2: Well, and I think that gets that so beautifully illustrates that.
35:40
Speaker 2: Sometimes we say, like, what's the best question, right, We're
35:42
Speaker 2: looking for that magic question, We're looking for that magic answer.
35:46
Speaker 2: But actually, any deep question is the perfect question if
35:50
Speaker 2: it's asked with the great spirit, if it's asked to
35:54
Speaker 2: someone who's ready to respond and connect with you, if
35:57
Speaker 2: you show them that you're listening by sharing of your
36:00
Speaker 2: self and not judging them but instead allowing them to
36:03
Speaker 2: be vulnerable and being vulnerable yourself, any question can be
36:07
Speaker 2: the best question if we allow ourselves. It's what happens
36:10
Speaker 2: after we ask the question that matters much much more.
36:13
Speaker 1: The Lightning round has evolved into a regular conversation again,
36:17
Speaker 1: which happens all the time. But our time is starting
36:20
Speaker 1: to run really short, and there are two more questions
36:23
Speaker 1: that I want to discuss with you. The first one
36:26
Speaker 1: comes from one of my favorite There were three parts
36:29
Speaker 1: of the book that I loved the most, but one
36:31
Speaker 1: of those parts was on page ninety seven, where you
36:34
Speaker 1: describe how shallow questions can become deep. Now, we've referenced
36:38
Speaker 1: deep questions a number of times, and we've just talked
36:40
Speaker 1: about one of those a moment ago. You've talked about
36:44
Speaker 1: how these deep questions are going to create better connection,
36:46
Speaker 1: and I want to hit you with a handful of standard,
36:49
Speaker 1: shallow questions that we often ask our children. Sure I
36:52
Speaker 1: love it, and get you to give me a deeper,
36:54
Speaker 1: more connective version. This is the really practical stuff, right,
36:58
Speaker 1: How do we deepen questions like how was school today?
37:02
Speaker 2: What was the most surprising thing that happened at school today?
37:05
Speaker 2: What was the best thing that happened to you at
37:07
Speaker 2: school today?
37:09
Speaker 1: It's such a slight tweak and even if they look
37:11
Speaker 1: at you and say nothing, that opens up more conversation, right, right, right.
37:16
Speaker 2: And as long as we change it up right, like
37:20
Speaker 2: what's the worst thing that happened today? What did someone
37:22
Speaker 2: say in class that was like the weirdest thing you've
37:24
Speaker 2: ever heard?
37:25
Speaker 1: Charles? In our family, we have a series of values,
37:28
Speaker 1: things that we just prioritize in terms of the way
37:30
Speaker 1: we interact with others, and so our questions, either at
37:33
Speaker 1: the dinner table or as we're discussing school, our questions
37:36
Speaker 1: will often revolve around those values. So we'll say, who
37:40
Speaker 1: were you kind to today? Or how did you show
37:43
Speaker 1: determination and perseverance in the face of adversity and challenge.
37:46
Speaker 1: We'll ask those questions and the children's sometimes they've grown
37:50
Speaker 1: and say, but more often than not we get really great.
37:53
Speaker 1: They're just deeper questions.
37:55
Speaker 2: And I'll mentioned something I asked my kids. It's very
37:57
Speaker 2: much in keeping with this is rather than asking them
37:59
Speaker 2: like how's Jasper? What's going on with Jasper? I like
38:01
Speaker 2: to ask my kids like, what do you admire about Jasper?
38:04
Speaker 2: It seems like you really like them, Like what do
38:05
Speaker 2: you admire about them? Right? And then suddenly you're empowering
38:10
Speaker 2: them to tell you how they see the world.
38:13
Speaker 1: Here's another one, why didn't you clean your room?
38:18
Speaker 2: Sometimes when you ask that question, you you're not actually
38:21
Speaker 2: looking for a conversation.
38:22
Speaker 3: You're just like, you're just looking to send a message.
38:24
Speaker 3: I just want yeah, and that's okay, that's okay. But
38:27
Speaker 3: a better way to do it if you do want
38:29
Speaker 3: to have a conversation is I know that the cleaning
38:32
Speaker 3: is important to me, and you told me it's important
38:34
Speaker 3: to you. What's the thing that's stopping you from keeping
38:37
Speaker 3: your room clean? Let's let's let's analyze this.
38:40
Speaker 1: Okay, I have two more of these ones. What do
38:43
Speaker 1: you want for dinner? Again, this is a very practical,
38:47
Speaker 1: and my parent really cares, like, we're so sick of
38:49
Speaker 1: thinking every day about what we need to do for dinner.
38:52
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's got to be a better way that
38:54
Speaker 1: we can ask this question.
38:56
Speaker 2: So this is how I do it at home. I say,
38:57
Speaker 2: if you could have anything for dinner, any thing on earth,
39:01
Speaker 2: but you're you're deciding this in the future because you're
39:06
Speaker 2: looking back and seeing what you should eat, what would
39:09
Speaker 2: you choose? And it never really they say ice cream? Right,
39:12
Speaker 2: I'm like, five years from now, do you think that, like,
39:15
Speaker 2: you're you're gonna really wish that you had ice cream tonight? No,
39:18
Speaker 2: I guess five years from now, I wish that we
39:20
Speaker 2: had some broccoli and then some ice cream. So the
39:24
Speaker 2: variety is the spice of life in this. Yeah.
39:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you could have your last meal and it
39:28
Speaker 1: was to night, what would you choose? That kind of thing.
39:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great one, right, all right.
39:32
Speaker 1: And the last one that I wanted to ask is
39:34
Speaker 1: just this is another tricky one because as parents were
39:37
Speaker 1: so functionally oriented, it's so much about getting things done.
39:40
Speaker 1: It's so often practical, but a question around are you
39:44
Speaker 1: ready for your test? How would you deepen that or
39:47
Speaker 1: how would you improve that question?
39:49
Speaker 2: You know, we think about this a lot because we
39:52
Speaker 2: work with our kids and they're in school, and we
39:55
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time talking to them about how
39:59
Speaker 2: do you feel all about the test that's coming up,
40:02
Speaker 2: Like how do you feel about the work you've done,
40:04
Speaker 2: how do you feel about the test tomorrow? Do you
40:07
Speaker 2: how do you think you're going to feel afterwards? Feel?
40:11
Speaker 2: And in part that's because it's a little bit different,
40:14
Speaker 2: but also because that's actually what we're supposed to be doing, right,
40:17
Speaker 2: We're supposed to be teaching them this internal compass about
40:21
Speaker 2: where they can rely on their feelings to tell them
40:24
Speaker 2: whether they're prepared or not, or to tell them whether
40:26
Speaker 2: they should be anxious or not, and if they're feeling anxious,
40:29
Speaker 2: to try and figure out why and do something to
40:32
Speaker 2: relieve it.
40:33
Speaker 1: I love that, Charles. For a couple of decades now,
40:38
Speaker 1: I've been talking to people about the Harvard Study of
40:40
Speaker 1: Adult Development, otherwise known as the Grant Study, one of
40:42
Speaker 1: the longest running, if not the longest running study of
40:45
Speaker 1: human development and flourishing and well being in the history
40:48
Speaker 1: of the world. It's it's spoken about by so many
40:50
Speaker 1: people in so many different contexts. In the last chapter
40:53
Speaker 1: of Supercommunicators, you put a perspective on the Grant study
40:59
Speaker 1: that kept me riveted. It was my favorite part of
41:03
Speaker 1: the book, and not by a little bit.
41:05
Speaker 2: I just thank you.
41:06
Speaker 1: I loved it so much that I pulled my whole
41:07
Speaker 1: family together and a couple of the kids had their
41:09
Speaker 1: friends over, and I said, I don't care, everyone around
41:11
Speaker 1: the dining table now, and.
41:12
Speaker 2: I read them.
41:13
Speaker 1: I read them the entire final chapter out loud for
41:16
Speaker 1: about thirty or forty minutes, and we talked about it
41:18
Speaker 1: as we went through. I loved how you wrapped up
41:20
Speaker 1: this well.
41:21
Speaker 2: Thank you. That's so nice to be to say.
41:23
Speaker 1: What I would love for you to do for everyone
41:25
Speaker 1: who's participating in this podcast conversation is, let's wrap this
41:29
Speaker 1: up with a discussion about why. Why does communication matter?
41:34
Speaker 1: Why does the book matter? Why is the idea of
41:35
Speaker 1: being a super communicator matter? How do you explain why
41:39
Speaker 1: we need to communicate and connect better?
41:41
Speaker 2: You know you mentioned that study, the Harvard Study of
41:44
Speaker 2: Adult Development, and for those folks who aren't aware of it,
41:47
Speaker 2: it's been going on for almost eighty years now. Researchers
41:51
Speaker 2: have followed around thousands of people trying to figure out basically,
41:55
Speaker 2: what are the things that make you happier and healthier
41:59
Speaker 2: and more accessful. However, you define success into your old age.
42:03
Speaker 2: And they had all these theories, right, They've done at Harvard,
42:05
Speaker 2: so they're like, well, if you go to Harvard, you're
42:07
Speaker 2: definitely going to be happier when you get older. And
42:08
Speaker 2: it turns out that's not true. If you're married and
42:11
Speaker 2: you stay married and even if it's bad marriage, you
42:14
Speaker 2: don't get divorced, you're going to be happy and successful. Nope,
42:16
Speaker 2: that's not true either. The researchers basically found only one
42:19
Speaker 2: thing that could predict people's happiness, health, and success at
42:24
Speaker 2: age sixty five, and that was having at least a
42:27
Speaker 2: handful of close relationships at age forty five, which means,
42:31
Speaker 2: of course, that you've had those relationships for a while
42:33
Speaker 2: and that you're going to continue to have them for
42:34
Speaker 2: a while. And I think this gets to why communication
42:38
Speaker 2: is so important. We are a social creatures. We are
42:42
Speaker 2: a social species. Our brains literally have evolved to make
42:48
Speaker 2: a supercommunicators. If you think about it, communication is our superpower.
42:53
Speaker 2: It's the thing that puts us above every other species.
42:55
Speaker 2: That's the thing that allows us to build families and
42:58
Speaker 2: villages and towns and cities, aircraft carriers and game boxes.
43:03
Speaker 2: Communication is at the core of how we experience life
43:09
Speaker 2: and when we connect with other people. When we have
43:12
Speaker 2: other people who it's easy to communicate with, who we
43:14
Speaker 2: communicate with on a regular basis, who we have those
43:16
Speaker 2: meaningful conversations. It is the thing that only brings our
43:19
Speaker 2: life meaning. It literally makes us healthier, we live longer.
43:23
Speaker 2: When we do that, we get exposed to opportunities we
43:25
Speaker 2: wouldn't have known about otherwise, and so we end up
43:27
Speaker 2: being more successful. Communication and connection is everything, and for
43:34
Speaker 2: anyone who has it or who doesn't have it, they
43:37
Speaker 2: know that.
43:38
Speaker 1: Super communicate is how to unlock the secret Language of Connection.
43:41
Speaker 1: Is the book compelling storytelling, powerful insights. I loved it.
43:45
Speaker 1: Charles Dewick, Thank you for communicating and connecting with us
43:49
Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast today.
43:51
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun.
43:53
Speaker 1: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
43:55
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. If you like the podcast, can we invite
43:58
Speaker 1: you to take twenty seconds out of your day. It's
44:00
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44:03
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44:12
Speaker 1: family thrive are available at happy families dot com dot
44:16
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