Latest / Matt Brown Show - Conversations That Power The Business World. / MBS991 - The AI Advantage: The Fear Quotient: Shifting the Context of AI | Peter Docker & Ashleigh Riddle

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MBS991 - The AI Advantage: The Fear Quotient: Shifting the Context of AI | Peter Docker & Ashleigh Riddle · Matt Brown Show - Conversations That Power The Business World.

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, everybody, and welcome back to yet another cracking edition of the Matt Brown show.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is the AI Advantage series, where we are talking to leaders all around the world about the impact of AI on their industries.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: And with us in the hot seat today is none other than Peter Docker and Ashley Riddle.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, there should be two hot seats, shouldn't they?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: But they are from uh a firm called uh Jump Seat Leadership.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Guys, welcome to the show.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Matt.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Great to be here.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, man.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: So let's have some fun, man.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: So for our audience around the world today, uh, what exactly are you guys up to?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Give us the elevator pitch.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: What are we up to?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds a good question.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want to go first?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So what we're up to is working with organizations, like global organizations, that uh want extraordinary results.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what we're focused on actually is the fear quotient in an organization and uh the conditions that you create for people.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: So from entrepreneurs all the way to some of the biggest companies in the world, we're helping them understand those conditions and how they impact the people that they're leading.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: And indeed the results they get.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the results they get, yeah.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: So we work all over the world, Matt, including I think your home country of uh of Africa.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: We've uh we've been there too.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Not my home anymore, okay, Peter.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, okay, okay.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: God damn it, I'm in America now, I've moved on.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm only joking.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, um, but it's interesting, right?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I love that idea called of the fear creations.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I had um what's his name on the show?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: That uh exponential dude.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh can't believe I forgot his name now.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh written loads of books and exponential technology and stuff.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, but it was this idea of like because technology exponential technology like AI keeps maturing and and you know evolving so quickly that uh the human mind doesn't actually cope very well uh with the the the rates at which you know technology or exponential technology um matures and changes.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like because we think like one, two, three, four, but we don't do two, four, sixteen, you know what I mean?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then it becomes the mind's like, oh shit, what's the next number again?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so that's kind of like the the sort of technology thing.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: And he was talking about now, I have to look up his name, goddammit.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um because hold on.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm sounding like an idiot.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, listen, I've got anyway.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: But um he was basically saying uh God.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna edit this, are you?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna go out.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, this is going exactly Peter Diamandis, see?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, no, I have no idea that.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, moving on.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: But um, so he spoke about this idea of AQ, which is the adaptability quotient.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, how fast can you adapt to the speed or the rate at which industries and markets now move uh because of you know things like AI and so on and so forth.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: So um talk to us a little bit more about this idea of um the fear quotient.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because for context, yesterday I was at a breakfast with 20 CEOs of massive companies, mid-market, what have you.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the whole breakfast was about talking about AI.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And uh this I uh there was the I call it the AI echo chamber, and I actually spoke at at the at the breakfast because no one actually knows what the hell to do about it.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually quite ridiculous.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um in this and a lot of people there's a lot of fear like, well, what about cybersecurity?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: If we if we have you know data centers in like 12 markets or 12 different countries, like what role does regulation play from a data sharing perspective as it relates to building our own models and compute and this kind of you know what I mean?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and people are scared shit this quite frankly.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, in your context, then when you're engaging with leaders like that, what is this idea of this fear questions?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: How does that play out?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, first of all, Matt, completely relate to your experience talking to your CEOs.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we uh work with some of the largest companies in the world, and uh when uh we're giving keynotes or running workshops, some of the things we do, we ask questions anonymously, we get the feedback, and it is amazing how much fear there is, not just about AI, but generally in terms of leadership.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: And uh let's dial it all the way back to what actually makes us human, because that's the special factor.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: And everything that's deeply important to us is driven by one of two things it's either driven by fear or it's driven by love.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Everything.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: So when we start to get really interested in how fear is triggered, then we have a choice of how we can transition from fear to the love of something.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it turns out that fear is triggered due to one of four things.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's when we perceive that our life, our livelihood, or our status or our reputation are under threat.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: And when we perceive any of those four things, it triggers fear inside of us and it drives the actions we take and then the results that we get.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: So what we're interested in is embracing that notion of the fear driver, looking at the conditions that generate fear and how you can shift to replace fear with a love for something.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the foundation around which we we do our work.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Very cool.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: You should write a book.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And now we have, yeah.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now you have.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, that's where it comes from is our book Leading from the Jumpseat.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, this whole idea of the conditions that people are in.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so much of our focus, especially in the world of AI, um, is that we're finding that there people are stepping into a space and and there is this really interesting cycle that we're in.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, um, the conditions that we're in are similar to where we felt a hundred years ago as we were like, you know, leading into industrial revolution and understanding, you know, from coming out of the Great Depression and the World Wars.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've always had this iteration.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just been a different tool or something that's been put in that begins to shake things up.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is interesting is that, you know, quite a few companies are bringing us in because, you know, as they're making decisions, um, a lot of them are fear-based.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And when we talk to companies about AI, I don't know if you've seen some of the emails that have gone out from CEOs to their company.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they don't really know what to do with this tech.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so the narrative in which they're sharing how it's going to be introduced to the company is usually from a place of fear.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just actually a couple of weeks ago, we received an email from a client that I went, oh dear God, like please tell me this did not go out.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because in it, it said, we'll be introducing this AI platform.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And as I started going throughout it, they said, Some of you may not be here with us, you know, a year from now.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, like, which ones like are not going to be here?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, you know, as we're introducing this, share your knowledge and, you know, your genius behind this, but also know that some of you may be working, you know, we know you put in a lot of hours, you'll be putting in more hours.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is supposed to increase our revenue.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if it doesn't, it could mean that.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, this is the darkest story I have ever read.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we're often finding is that, you know, with AI, it's a tool.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is what it is.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: But what we're finding is when you talk to some of the biggest companies in the world and you ask them, what is your strategy or your big picture or vision for the next two years, three years, five years, they cannot paint one for you.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so what ends up happening is like rather than leading from that place of a love for something, like what it is that you're moving towards, it's actually just all flooding in on them and they're having to make decisions around technology and things that don't even exist yet today.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it's causing chaos.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot of the work we're doing is is going in to understand what are those conditions and how it's impacting the people in the organization.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, there's so much failure in that story, isn't there?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: There is.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think one of the interesting stats that came through uh in the breakfast was the MIT piece of research, currently today or something like that.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, like 95% of enterprise AI projects fail from an implementation perspective.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: One of the um guys shared there that um a lot of the leadership team, this is like one of the fastest data center grow or fastest growing data center companies in the world.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and when they talk, because it was the head of their like infrastructure, whatever, um, and when he talks to his leadership team, they didn't even know how to define what AI is.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Let alone what it means.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so and I keep saying this to and I one of the things that's you know, and you'll you'll probably resonate with this, and that's like you said, it is a tool, and it's not the first transformational tool that's come along.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, there was Web3, the promise of that stuff.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where the where the fuck is that?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like that didn't happen.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're not paying for and blockchain, cryptocurrency, cloud, SaaS, you know, all these things.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, we're not paying for bread with cryptocurrency, you know.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think oftentimes this this whole thing uh it's it is so fear-based.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, it's like, how do you know what your employees are doing with AI?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what information are they ripping out of your Salesforce uh system, like all your sensitive customer data, because they want to some AP clerk wants to do a cool looking report and save him or herself like eight hours of time winning, and they put all that customer data into GPT, and where's that data sitting now?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's like, I mean, if you're a regulated company, like that's a big deal, dude.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so in many cases, uh for me it's about two things.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: One, it's about asking better questions about what problems to actually solve with this stuff, and not to waste time thinking about like, well, what does the future of work look like in five years' time?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, fuck, who cares, dude?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's in five years' time.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can't even define what AI is, let alone answer a question like that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: So think about like what is the actual problem that we can solve now, you know, um, rather than um going into it with the wrong expectations, you know.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's also interesting about you're saying, Matt, is something that we see often.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually were at a workshop uh just a couple of days ago, and the whole I the conversation around, and this is going to tie into the marketing and branding side of what Jaguar and Budweiser and now Cracker Barrel have all gone through.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, everyone was like, oh, they had to be high-fiving themselves and like thinking how great they're doing.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually responded back and I said, I don't think they were at all.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that these teams were terrified.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that they had stakeholders and they also had board members who were demanding that they did something different.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that fear drove decisions that were not tied really to anything.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that misalignment that happened, like, you know, the minute that it went out, they could even back themselves.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was just kind of like, oh crap, like, you know, kind of like we got caught in a sense.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then they were reeling it back because it was just tied to we've got to do the next best big thing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's what's interesting about AI.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's going in the same direction, is, you know, if you think back 10 to 15 years ago, a lot of companies were actually firing their in-house tech teams because they believed that by outsourcing it was going to be a better solution.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But when you actually looked at it and you said, well, how does this tie into just your overarching strategy of an organization?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, well, this is just the next thing.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that like when I look at the CEOs, like as you're talking about this group you spoke to the other morning, I have such a deep empathy for these CEOs because the fear that's like, you know, for them, especially when we deal with like, you know, publicly trading companies, you know, any decision they make or do, the fear of not just losing their job and reputate, like, you know, the status reputation here, what's the likelihood they're going to get another job if this doesn't go well?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they got to keep their stakeholders happy.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they've got to keep the, I mean, the the level I cannot imagine.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times, like what we're finding, you know, that definition of like, how do you actually define AI, it is slowing them down because it's that fear and that pressure that's coming behind where it's like, let's just take a quick time out here and see what's driving this because you're about to make some decisions.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say this to entrepreneurs this is such a good storyline to be watching and to see it within your own company and say, what are we committed to as an organization?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that we deeply care about?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: What is the vision that we have?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then ask the question after you've answered those, how does this tool or technology fit in?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can answer that question, you're in a much, much better place because the pressures and the fears and all of those things you're going to have, they're going to be there.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't get rid of them.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's good to have those reminders and those guardrails and those things that, like, you know, really keep you focused.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that way when the board does come to you and you say, listen, we've looked into this.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have a team over here helping us figure out how we can utilize this, but we still have these eight things we're trying to achieve in front of us rather than just abandoning everything.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when the chaos begins.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, that's what we're actually having to go in and help companies get back on track because the AI storyline, which is fear-based, has completely imploded the company, people quitting, which I want to add one more thing.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: You said something about that MIT piece about the 95%, like it's not working.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting is there's other studies coming out where teams, because of the fear, have like decided their perceptions it won't work.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So they're actually, as they're building it, looking at how they can ensure that they're going to have jobs five years from now as they're building out this tech, because they don't want to get removed from the company or fired or made redundant.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this really interesting thing where it's like, how much of it is, you know, we're actually, as we're trying to build this, people are undoing it because the perceptions that they have about the storyline that we're giving about AI taking away your jobs.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this really interesting cycle where it's like, how are we going to break out of it?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are some companies that are doing a great job of it saying this is a tool, and they will be the ones that beat out their competitors, no question.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: And if I could just pick up, Matt, on something that Ashley mentioned there.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Mentioned the word commitment.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to focus in on that a moment because this is the foundation on which everything else is built that has sustainability in terms of keeping the company on track over the long term.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: It links to the AI question as well.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to distinguish between purpose and commitment.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not so long ago, I I co-wrote a book called Find Your Why, which some of your listeners may have heard of.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, guy with I work with Simon Sinek.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that was focused very much around purpose.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And purpose is great because it can provide that clarity that can align an organization's it can be big picture, long-term, and it can evolve.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: But purpose can also be quite static.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's only when we elevate it to the level of a commitment that it really takes on power.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: And a commitment starts with a promise that we make to ourselves to follow through.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: And we are emotionally connected to that commitment.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if necessary, we'll make sacrifices to deliver on it.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it shows up in the daily choices that we make as individuals, but also through the work we do in our business.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very action and discipline-driven.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I can give an example of this, and we see this often in the tech world.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so we worked with a major hospital complex, and they just couldn't figure out uh why, like we have these great doctors, great nurses, but you know, we just can't seem to turn the tide, you know, in the the world they're in, especially adapting new technology.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, what we found was we said, you know, they're committed to their profession, but not necessarily committed to you as a hospital.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually something that we're seeing in the tech industry as well, especially with the introduction of AI.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Employees do not feel connected to an organization right now.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's also because of how we're creating this environment.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, it's your whole, you're trying, we're not really looking at retaining the top talent, figuring out what it is that we need to do to build that sense of belonging and drive a commitment.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of like we're gonna take people, use them.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's how people see it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Take people, use them, and then they'll move to another organization.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's another big conversation that we're having is that, you know, we're so focused on pouring all this money in.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then what happens is you have a team maybe stay two years and then someone else offers them more money and they leave.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you lose, you know, and it's like you're actually just spinning your wheels.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just the the conversation right now in business is really interesting.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when you bring in this AI factor, it it just uh all it does is just layer pawn all the other issues that they have and even not just in the tech side, but even people who perceive that what their tech teams are building could actually replace their jobs, they're not as committed either.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the the organizations are just becoming stagnant.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, lots to unpack there.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, guys.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, I mean, I like this idea of the relationship between purpose and commitment because, you know, I think one of the things I know for sure is that the the status quo in general now with AI is distrust.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so you can't drive behavior in an organization if there is no trust.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't matter how cool the technology is or what it promises, you know, it's in terms of like use cases for healthcare or whatever, or maybe just for an individual, you know, organization.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but because there's so much distrust and you know, and just people are ignorant, like uh, you know, CEOs, leadership leadership teams, boards, you know, just everyone's just seems seemingly skeptic.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna happen now, it's not really something we want to play with.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, to your point, um, Ashley, you know, uh inertia is a really big deal.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you're a listed company with shareholders, what and or let's just say you're a uh a company that's taken bench caps or money or private equity cash, like you're not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because AI seems to be the next cool thing.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a SaaS company that's doing 50 million a year, you know?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you change?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and why would you replace your team, you know, if if you if you know that the team is the thing that is gonna get you to a hundred million or that IPO or that exit or a new funding round.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so this is what uh you know, this is what I mean by inertia.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's no in there's no incentive, like you spoke about fear.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the the the the car crash hasn't happened for a lot of companies.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can never sell the ambulance and unless the car crash has happened.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have to see like law firms dying every week in the news, you know.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: You have to see media companies dying.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to, you know what I mean, like the car crash has to happen in order for people to go, holy shit, this thing is replacing markets, you know, or or it fundamentally changing uh business models.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it isn't yet, you know.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so this is why I going back to your point around the human connection piece, I actually think that that now, because of this distrust, right, uh in general out there, and this is fear out there, that's this need for uh this connection to each other, like humans and teams and culture, leadership, like true leadership, like authentic servant leadership, you know, start with why, purpose commitments, you know, uh, and so on and so forth.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think all these sort of fun fundamental principles of what a great leader is or what a great business is or what a great culture is or a great thought leader is, like those things are gonna become more valuable because people are gonna be, you know, on the fear train, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so they're gonna be looking for truth more than what they were, you know, five years ago when AI was like, yeah, it's coming, you know, take the next 10,000 startups, just add AI, you know.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: But now it's here and they can play with it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, oh shit, this is pretty cool.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but um, but I do believe this this need for like human connection is gonna become greater.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well it's here.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's here.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, the other day we were having a conversation and you know, we do a lot of work around uh, you know, because both of us, I mean, for many years I worked with Simon Sinek and start with Y, and so did he.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, we've we've watched, you know, the you know, you kind of watch these highs and lows come when it's like, you know, making a connection.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you do actually need to find a way to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: To what you're doing as organization, paint a very clear picture, but also help them connect on a personal level themselves to what you're doing in that organization and how they contribute.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the conversations we had the other day, you know, someone was like, well, what we call them stands, like uh, which goes beyond what a value is.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh they said, Well, which ones do we need to have?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I wouldn't worry about which one you have, just be consistent.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually what people are really looking for right now is they're looking for the companies that that are consistent, but also it's like they have our back.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because what we've watched with some companies over the last year, even like the last two months, is that because they're all over the place, when it comes time for someone to have their back, they don't.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where you know that there is big misalignment in that organization.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because in some of the decisions that have been made, really people should be taking a step forward and say, no, that's actually deeply important to us, and this is why we made this decision.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's not at all what's happening.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think another, you know, really, you know, interesting piece about like the distrust and you know, the human element, we actually had someone um during one of our workshops that we do, they stood up and said, Well, aren't you worried um that AI could have done this workshop?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, actually, I welcome it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because they said, you know, what we got as an end result, we probably could have put it all into.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually call Chat GPT Chatty Kathy.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if I call her that, that's why.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I call her Chatty Kathy.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, you know, you can put all this information in, and we probably could have gotten the same result and uh, you know, put in an envelope, undo it at the end.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, well, actually, I'd I'd be game for that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I said, the big difference is pulling something out of an envelope versus what we did for two days is that human connection.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we leave this room, the data, the information that we have, and actually, I hope it'd be actually really great is if what we put into Chatty Kathy and what we did in this room aligned.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: That means we did some great prompts.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and but at the end, it's gonna take the 20 of us in this room to make this thing happen.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we needed that time to come together and we needed that time to, um, and we talk about accountability versus responsibility.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: We have lots of things we talk about.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it's, you know, it's that understanding of this is what I'm willing to sacrifice.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm, you know, going to do, this is, you know, what the the thing I'm saying is deeply important that I'm gonna make sure happens.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can't get that from uh from an AI-generated prompt.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the person just sat down for a second and I was like, I'm here for it.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: But what we do need is like the organizations that can find that blend of the value that comes from um, you know, from technology and you know, what the future is, but also sees that at the end of the day, it is the human being.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you can find that secret sauce between the two of them, you will have an extraordinary outcome.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: You will do something that we've never seen before, but you must have both.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've been really yelling that from the rooftops, like the top of the mountain for like the last year and going, now is the time to invest in your people.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now is the time to get very clear and communicate them to them what you see the future looking like in a positive way, in a way that shows like this is like we need both.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: All of it's important.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we want that collective genius.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like we need it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you can do that, and like whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're running a large organization, doesn't matter, any level of an organization, you're going to be leaps and bounds ahead.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: And what Ashley said there, Matt, about extraordinary outcomes, that's what we focus on.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a good thing.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Creating the conditions where people, individuals can be extraordinary.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: So then the organization, the team to which they belong can be extraordinary.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: But here's the thing: extraordinary cannot happen in the context of fear.
• 26:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Innovation, creativity cannot happen in the context of fear.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: It certainly can't be sustained in a context of fear.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's where we come back to shifting from fear to love.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: And this is not about tree hugging love.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is Oh, the reason we encourage hugging a tree every now and again.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: It is great, but uh, you know, a lot of my work comes from leading people in in combat.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I was a pilot in the the British military.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell And he flew the prime minister and a bunch of other things.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: A bunch of other things.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, the reason people put themselves in harm's way is for the love for something.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: And the the people I had the privilege of leading during the the Second Gulf War, um, we flew large, unarmed, undefended aircraft, and we were big sitting ducks.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have to order anyone to do anything.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because they knew that people wearing similar uniforms to them from the US, UK, and Australia, relied on them doing their job because otherwise they'd lose their lives.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's what had them get in time and time again into the cockpit and go and fly their missions.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: It was the love for something, not the fear of.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so this is where the magic occurs, and that's where our focus is, the work we do, making that shift, showing people how it's done at scale, and that's when you start to can create the conditions for extraordinary history-making outcomes.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very cool.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um I yeah, I mean, we should probably do like a whole other show on that because um I think people are motive, I mean, motivated by different things, you know.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned like purpose and why and meaning and you know, fear and love and all these different things.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when you when you change the context, you change everything.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you Absolutely Um for me personally, like I would go to war to out of fear that these pricks are gonna come kill my family.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's a it's a the context of a love for your family, yeah.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: That that's the important thing.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's that's the flip.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I guess what you're trying to I know what you're trying to say.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: But um but for me, and then but then in business, if you change the context, like I don't uh I'm not motivated by love in business.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm motivated out of fear.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I if in other words, if I don't succeed or if I don't achieve these things, then what will happen for future Matt and future Matt's family?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fear-based motivation.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't necessarily and I'm curious to get your view, like um is it all bad?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you mention things like, you know, you can't you can't have these creative breakthroughs if you if you're coming from a place of fear, or I know I'm kind of bastardizing what what you said, but but you know what I'm trying to say.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you feel is it always is it always a bad thing, you know, like fear-based motivation or thinking.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So here's what's interesting is that uh, because I I'm a very logical thinker, and I too went through this process of like, okay, and and not too long ago we sat in front of a lovely CEO who told me he said, I fear nothing.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I was like, all right, I'm here for that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, to which I responded, I said, then you've never loved anything.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because what's interesting about, you know, like, you know, when you think about uh if you've had kids or you have anyone that you've you deeply cared for, a partner, whomever it might be, it's like it isn't until you have that introduction that you realize suddenly all the things that you you fear now.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like before, I have uh I have a niece and nephew that I I love, like they're my own.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think I ever considered cars in a parking lot as much as I do when I'm with them, nor do I think about, you know, my surroundings, like who else is in the room when I have them with me and you know, where they end up going.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so much of that is, you know, the fear that I can feel, you know, is is there.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also, you know, there's an antidote to fear, which is, you know, a love for something.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a love for their safety, like it is a love for um, you know, their, and even I had a conversation the other day about um the love that I have for um then being in an environment where they uh, you know, can thrive and learn and grow.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it's a very interesting piece because like fear is a driver and you know, it is something that you feel and that you can't get rid of as a human being.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: The thing is, it's like it is this flip in your mind, the context that we like to say, where it's like it's a love for something.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it is the love that you have for your family that does drive this podcast.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it is the love for your family that it is that you're actually wanting to shift because you do believe that there is something better that we can contribute to the world of business.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you're actually playing your part and it's coming from a place of love.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is that slight shift where fear is actually there.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: However, I think what you've done is very interesting, is like you do what we talk to clients about, is you've actually done something with it.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And through creativity and innovation and a love for this podcast exists.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Conversations like this exist where you're actually inviting, and it's always we talk about like it's a choice, an invitation.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually constantly extending this invitation to people to actually step into outside of fear into a love for something.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that you're actively doing it all the time.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like the sec, like the second you start talking about this group of 20, and you're inviting them to think differently.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like the fact that you brought up about context, like that is love through and through, because you're pulling them out of this space to say, hey, listen, let's see the world in a different way.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where their creativity, their innovation is coming from.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're doing it in such a wonderful way.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: You guys should do like leadership coaching and stuff like that.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually usually on days.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: So if you want to join us, I I I just want to add to that, Matt, because you mentioned context.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: We we use a lot of distinctions in language because when we distinguish words, we can have different conversations and get different results.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: So there's only two things in this world: there's context and there's content.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Content is the stuff we do, the work we do, the podcasts you you produce.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: But content has got no meaning without context.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a jigsaw puzzle.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, content is all the puzzle pieces on the table, but they have very little meaning unless you can see the picture on the box.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, you can pull your puzzle pieces together in the context of fear, or you can pull those puzzle pieces together in a context of love.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: You're still pulling the puzzle pieces together, but the meaning is entirely different.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's the option that is available to us all.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's not about eradicating fear.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: We're not talking about that because it is a human driver.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's love fear is what makes it more human than any AI.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: It really does.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's about recognizing what triggers the fear and then realizing that we have a choice to do something about it.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: And if we want something sustainable, if we want something driven by passion rather than stress, then scratching the surface, as Ashie just did with you, you know, when you you talk about the fear of not having anything for your family to grow into, if you scratch the surface, it's the love for your family that means that you make all the sacrifices you do of getting up at ridiculous hours of the day, I'm sure that podcasts or whatever it is.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just that shift, that mental shift, and it changes everything.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Which is like where the interesting part comes in with AI is if a s if a CEO, entrepreneur, or whoever it does, is getting ready to walk into a room.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: The second, if I was, if we were talking to them, we would say, when you begin this conversation about AI, you have to think about this.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: The fear in people's minds, they're going to fear that their life, their livelihood, status, and reputation is on the line.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: In any of those categories, I guarantee you, like you're going to find 100% of the people in that room will be fitting into one of them.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where they have an opportunity to shift the context of that conversation.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like for that CEO to recognize it, for them to step into it and say, listen, I recognize that fear may be in this room and I want to address, you know, that your life, your livelihood, status, reputation, you don't need to worry about that.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're going to use this.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is such a shift from, you know, and and so much of what we teach people, because fear is going to be in any situation, because we talk about leading when you don't know the answer.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be able as quickly as you can, that fear quotient, identifying it, but flipping it once you know it's there.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the conversation shifts to then people taking a step forward rather than thinking, I need to get my uh my CD or resume ready to go, because my department won't exist.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're stepping forward and saying, hey, listen, there might be some things you want to consider.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we'd love to get in on those conversations around this AI tech that you're bringing in, because it could really help us in a sales department, versus, all right, everyone, we've got to figure out how to protect this because you know, we're now going to be in a situation that we may not exist a year from now.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they do nothing in that department to help you move the organization forward.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we see it all the time.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like it's, and it can happen to anybody.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why when Peter says like it's human, when we look at these people, there is so much empathy because it's just like I do not envy one CEO, entrepreneur, anyone running an organization, like God bless the CMOs, CIOs that are existing right now, because that pressure.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why when they're making decisions and we're like, and people are so critical of them, I'm like, please don't be.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like they, like the empathy of like they're living in fear.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to figure it out.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're being asked to answer questions that no one has the answer to.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is just that.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like we try to take it, we say, like, you know, take it from an eight to a two, like where we extend that invitation to them and say, listen, no shame, no blame in this.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you're freaking out, good.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: We know you're a human being.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And let's actually talk about that because, and that's when we do get those answers from people and they're like, I am freaking out.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't slept in three days.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, and all of a sudden you're like, oh dear God.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and we're talking about people that run billion-dollar organizations all the way to the front line who are wondering, you know, can I afford to pay my mortgage next month?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's that kind of context that podcasts like this, conversations that you're having with groups of 20, you slowly start to shift that that context for people.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it can have just amazing, amazing impacts in such a positive way.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's fun when that's as you're talking about, it's a bit like AA.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, not that I'm familiar with AA match.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to AA, it's perfectly fine.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, the first step everybody knows is to acknowledge uh the condition you have.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: And uh the the relief we find you, we were in a group of 140 senior leaders of company, so big, each of those leaders ran companies larger than most companies that we're familiar with.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: And uh because of the the workshop we're doing with them, it was clear that they have this huge amount of fear inside them.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they told us.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: They did.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: And once you give them an outlet to talk about it, yeah, and then talk about what's triggering it, and then talk about how we can move from that place to the other place, yeah, it's really so empowering.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: And the different conversation you get, because instantly you shifted the context.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: And you can start to see fresh possibility.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because people realize that, oh, it's not just me then.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's everybody else.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: And how can we help one another through?
• 38:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting, man.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm slowly getting it.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I was skeptical, like, I love in business, how does that work?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because like love should stay at home, you know what I'm saying?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, so like you say you're skeptical.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, I was.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying, No, no, no, no, no.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: But four years ago, when we wrote the book Leading from the Jump Seat, we when we wrote the strategy, did all the things, he he um, he said, I want to throw this idea on the table.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Go ahead.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, I want to talk about, you know, love and fear and love and and I said, Oh no.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: I said immediately my response back was no.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've worked with, I mean, I've been in the thought leadership world, books, TED talks, all the things.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this will either land really well if you believe in it, or it won't.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's got to have substance.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've got to be able to define it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And just like you were talking about, like, how do we define AI?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we define this?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and he sent back that chapter two or three times.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And every time what he'd find is um the whole area, like, you know, where everything's been written was just deleted.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: Ashley was the delete button.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I deleted the whole chapter.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: I deleted the whole chapter.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, right, the whole chapter would be just blank.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he would be like, and he would be like, so I guess we're not doing it.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I said the reason behind that was because I really wanted to ensure that when we shared it, it had to come from a place of like, you know, of true belief.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is something that that we stand for as an organization, and that you can very clearly define both and extend that invitation to someone for them to see something in a completely different context.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I've I will say, I will 100% say I was not right.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because from the people that we've talked to across the board who are who are skeptical, like myself, you watch this disarming with people where it's just this human moment that they have that they realize everything that they're feeling and everything that they are they're like the world they're existing in is run by fear.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: All of it.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a, you know, even like when we we talk about the business world right now.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we, I mean, you've probably heard this like a VUCA world.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Good lord.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, have you heard this?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: A VUCA?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a military term that the tech industry is using, and it means like volatility, uncertainty, complexity, complexity, and ambiguity.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is how you describe your world.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Then they got more fun, Matt, because like this actually happened to us like uh a few months ago for a keynote.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: They said, could you talk about a banny world?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, We're now like, you know, doing something fun, like with Bali, like something happy.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was not.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was even worse than a VUCA world.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And what was the the Bandy one was like, um, oh god, it was awful.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: What was it?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let me see if we can find it.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is it here?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I may have to Google it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but uh, it was do you have it in here?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think I might hang on.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, where was Bany?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like Bany was worse.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: It took it to the next level.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was like, wow, this like I didn't know the world could be worse than this, but it is.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just the world in which we're describing is like we're we're like uh loving this fear-based piece and the narrative that's there, and no one's winning in it.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: So we we put forward that any tech leaders out there, because this came up on a tech leaders podcast we did.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if you're using the term VUCA, where um you know it it's about volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity, uh we we've renamed the acronym, all right, or put different words in there.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: So think instead for V, velocity.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: You're very clear on your direction, and you create simplicity so every can everybody can understand the direction.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Unity is for the the you there, where you have a shared commitment, something you're willing to sacrifice for, and you feel viscerally connected to achieving that.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: C is for consistency in how you lead, coming from your stance, what you deeply believe in, transcending fear and being driven instead by a context of love.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then I made up a word for the A, which is adaptivity, which is embracing leading when you don't know the answer, which is the focus of what we teach.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that completely changes everything.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it shifts the context within which we're working.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love it.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very cool.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, and I think it also it forces um it forces uh sort of self-reflection on what you thought you know motivated you or why you did what you did or what you felt like your or you know, I mean, like what your whole the original definition of Vika, right?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like and also because also like I think if you operate in that fear based um context the entire time, you're actually pretty fucking miserable there.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: What the what's interesting is like we have uh what we call, well, I call it anyways, the the par model.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um which you know, all the time he's like, it's P A R.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: But what's interesting is you know, it's just all you need is uh so the the way it goes is um what you know it's like what does the r stand for important in business results everybody wants better results the a which is always fun because people are like well what is it attitude we've had the number of a words but it's it's actions and the question is what drives actions that starts with p would you like to guess go on so actions drive results what p drives actions any idea Matt perspective oh so very close very very close you're actually doing a lot better usually we get performance personality a lot of fun ones but it's perceptions and so you know when we talk about the definition of fear being you know you perceive your life livelihoods status reputations under threat it will drive your actions which will get you the results and so that's what's so interesting about it is that you know once people do have this understanding you know it's like what is at the root of the result that you're getting it's fear.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like if you if what how you're talking about your world is in a VUCA world.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean when they said that to us so I did find banny like I have to read it to you because I was like they're like we can't figure out this global company why this department's really struggling and I was like okay and they said because we're living in a banny world and I was like I'm here for it go ahead.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: The B is for brittle the A is for anxious the N they did a big stretch here but nonlinear and then the I was incomprehensible.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And when they said that to me like I know it's just like someone did a far stretch.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like if you're saying that you're living in a buca and a banny world and you're confused why you're getting those results, I'd go all the way back to the conversations that you're having with your team every day and the context of how you're setting up the world that they're in, which is all fear-based.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like you've really got to understand what's happening there.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like that's a big part of these AI conversations.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I was in them, I'm like, listen, go for it.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like if it ties to your strategy and you build it in, but understand how it's going to impact people's actions and their perceptions because it may not actually give you the results that you want because you're still dealing with that human element.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a very simple model for people but it does help like just bring all of it together because it is if you are like being driven by fear.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it it brings it back to where we started in a way Matt because we maintain there aren't bad leaders and good leaders.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah we don't yeah it's essentially the conditions within which they're working.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: You can get someone who is seen or recognized a great leader, shift the condition to where they're in a place of fear, all of a sudden they will likely show up as a very different version of themselves.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: And when we're talking leaders here, we're not just talking about the CEOs, we're talking about people all the way down the chain because leadership is about leading yourself to so it's all about the conditions.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually had a a CEO who was like yeah I don't like see how conditions have an impact like if they're a great leader, they're a great leader.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I said well they're also human because I said right now I could send you a text message from one of your board members that says hey we want to have a meeting tomorrow at 9 a.m and be like get all the reports, find out what's going on, you know, like we cancel every I mean you're gonna go into this and he started laughing and he was like and I was like I think you're a good leader, but I changed your conditions.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like in this moment he truly understood and I was like you know I was like that's what we're talking about is like this it's it's not making anybody wrong or making anyone bad.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said there are very few people I've met that have woken up and said you know what today is the day I'm gonna screw my company over and I hope that it ruins everything.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are a couple I've met where I'm like would we help them?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's something wrong here.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: But people genuinely do want good.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it is those conditions.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you are sending out a mass communication to the company saying how you think AI is going to be introduced and you're telling them that you know there's a possibility of you know shifts and change and you know things are going to look different and there's layoffs and all this kind of stuff, you have just sent fear through some of the best people you could have in your organization.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Also what you've just done to all of your you know directors and department heads and everything else, they now have 20 hours worth of meetings each that didn't exist just a few hours before because people are in a state of panic.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like I there's such an opportunity right now to your point about the human element.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now is the time for people to take that step forward to put themselves into this moment of recognizing, you know, what are my people going through?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: How am I choosing to communicate?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because it really can be this human moment can make or break what happens.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like it is those organizations that the CEO is like in front constantly reminding the people how important it is, what it is that they're doing and what the next few years looks like and the excitement around AI and they can't wait to see what's being created.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Those companies will thrive they will it's the ones that they're doing a completely different messaging having you know no real connection to anything, you know, they're they're freaking out and rightly so.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we should, you know, it is the opportunity like moments like this that we're having that you've created this podcast where our hope is that if this just impacts one person to think about how they're presenting AI to their company, the conversations that they're having, that it can just make you know one meeting different or you know help you know a bunch of their employees, a hundred of them go home the next day and say we're gonna be all right.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a win.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is where you're going to see um great things come from the the world of AI because I think what we're seeing now for the people who are coming from a place of love, their people are only going to make it better and they're gonna figure it out and make it a tool that will really and truly what we talk about is creating things that are history making.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like they will do it.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it only can be in that context of love.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean that's as you can tell we're very passionate about what we do.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hadn't noticed that like like we genuinely love it because it it is those small things, the small shifts and context that we know if one entrepreneur, CEO, um you know organization level just makes this move hundreds and thousands of people can go home in a different context excited about the work that's to come and the future versus fearing it.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got a funny story to share with you.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: So when uh when I started uh this show like 10 years ago um and it's funny because like I don't know I wanted to quit many times the on the show you know over the years just because of it's heavy man to it's a lot of work to do it.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and anyway but now it's like part of my identity and identity and stuff.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: But in the beginning I remember um uh you know why like podcasting 10 years ago like wasn't a thing it was there was like Joe Rogan T Tim Ferris and maybe like 50 other people and then Matt Brown in Johannesburg um and that was like that was like a thing.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like in Africa people didn't even know what a podcast was like they were radio and TV that was it anyway I digress but it was all about um you know downloads and when I I remember in the beginning I published my first episode you know I was like yeah I'm gonna get thousands of views you know whatever um and um and I woke up the next morning and I had one download and that was like from me the day before checking out the audio was okay you know what I mean um and so and but you know but that and there's a reason I'm sharing it obviously now I mean it's a very different thing um but um over time it grew it grew it grew and then you know I don't want to get into the detail but pretty pretty quickly there was an audience in like a hundred countries even I was like fuck how is this possible but in the beginning I was I it was like 50 and then it was a hundred then it was 500 or whatever um and then people would always be focused on the wrong thing.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: They would be like well you know you don't get you know a a million downloads an episode or whatever you know you and and so on.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think oftentimes when people want to start um you know doing a show like this they think about the downloads and then what happens is they get demotivated out of fear that they're a failure or whatever.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and so and then that's why out of the three million circuit podcasts you have here, like many don't even have more than like six episodes because people just give up.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: They're like well why didn't like Matt Brown why didn't I have you know so much traction like everybody else is so famous or whatever.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember saying that I didn't care about whether whether it was a thousand or five hundred or three hundred I cared about the one.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so the the one dude who's sitting in some part of the the US or wherever he is or wherever she is and it's let's just say it was download 37 right out of whatever.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: But that person then decided to listen to this show and they were like or whatever the content was um and they would decide not to quit.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you think about that and you do that consistently over a decade you know what what does that impact actually look like?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so then I'm tying that back to uh what you were uh saying to me which was that I do this show out of love because that's actually what it is.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you say that I care about download number 37 that that is a thing of love because that is about contribution.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's not about yourself which is um which is like oftentimes you know when things aren't going well whatever like it's fear best you know and so you become self-censored you become the center of the universe um and so therefore you suck you know it can't be your best version right so defined 100% how we we we paint the picture of fear and it does become you do become self-focused you know and and that is the love for and I mean that's why you know for us you know any stage any conversation you know any any podcast any opportunity to share it's thinking about the one.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for Peter this is a big part of what's in jumpseat leadership because we talk a lot about legacy.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: We talk a lot about like what conditions are we creating for people um people that we may never meet.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I know for you we talk about in the book The Pebble in the Pond and that ripple effect and you know give a thought yeah there there's so much in what you just said Matt you know when we're actually for a place of fear we see the world as a place of scarcity.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: When we're coming from a place of love we see the world as opportunity.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's still the same world but it's entirely different.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the pebbles in the pond piece I I spent 25 years in the Royal Air Force and I was quite senior and after I left the Air Force in 2007 um I wasn't in a great state mentally and so I just because the things I I'd gone through and so I kind of shut off from the Air Force but then just a few years ago after the book came out I was asked to go and give a a talk to all of the commanding officers of the squadrons in the Royal Air Force and I was petrified.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: And bearing in mind I've been on stage in front of three thousand people running workshops and simultaneously but to a relatively small group I was petrified.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: But finally I I got up there and we had drinks before dinner and I had these guys come up to me who used to be junior officers on my squadron but now they're all squadron commanders themselves.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: And over a beer I congratulated them for what they'd accomplished and together in unison they said we owe it all to you and I was taken aback.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: What they meant by that was that I created the space condition.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: I lifted them up I created in conditions where they could be extraordinary and that's the pebble in the pond moment.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Often we have no concept of how far those ripples will travel and that's the case with this podcast that you've been doing for so long that you will never fully know the impact you've had but it comes from a place of love for the difference you can make in just one person's life let alone the thousands yeah it's it has happened so many I got so many little funny things that that support that idea like in the beginning I think I'd done like 52 episodes or whatever and and I went to an event and I was checking in some guy's like what's your name and I'm like Matt Brown he goes dude are you like Matt Brown from the Map and it's like Matt Brown I listened to your show it's changed my life you know that was like 50 episodes now we're like uh over a thousand so and then I like another one when I was back in South Africa we we basically did a lot of cold calling and whenever I wanted a big uh account I'd just do it myself and phoned this guy and never spoken to him in my life and he I'm like hey man it's like Matt Brown you know I'm the CEO of Black Swan butter and he's like are you like Matt Brown that's always going live on LinkedIn I'm like yeah he's like I listen to your show all the time but I didn't know him at all but it's just this ripple pond thing that you you know that you talk about that but I guys love chatting to you so much more I feel like we just you know spend hours doing this but uh we do have to wrap up yeah we do I'm afraid uh I'm alert for another one but um uh thanks once again appreciate you for for coming on the show and letting your perspective we should absolutely do it again uh but um yeah congrats on the impact you're having love how you think and um yeah it's awesome yeah thank you Matt great talking with you yeah