Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep223 'Coaching Skills for Clinicians: Secret Sauce or Empty Bandwagon?' - Jo Turner & Joanne Elphinston

Transcript

Ep223 'Coaching Skills for Clinicians: Secret Sauce or Empty Bandwagon?' - Jo Turner & Joanne Elphinston · The STA Clinician Podcast

0:00
You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
0:05
back into soft tissue therapy.
0:07
Music.
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And we are live. Hey people, how are you doing? Fashionably late to start the new year.
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My name is Matt Phillips, in case you're not aware of The Voice and you are
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listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast,
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maybe via the podcast which thank you very much for joining us
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that way and also you might have joined us live in youtube or
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on facebook because that's how we record this we go out live
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at eight o'clock nearly all tuesday
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sometimes it's a wednesday but the best idea is to keep an eye on social media
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just in case that happens um so if you're on the podcast you
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want to join us live you can ask the guests questions directly or
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hang out with wonderfully like-minded well not like-minded individuals
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and all you've got to do is do that youtube or facebook at
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eight o'clock there's already people in the house now that's why i like to be late i
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don't it's always lonely for coming there's no one here so i'm just going to say hello to
1:01
a few people who joined us already when you do join us and leave a
1:04
comment or question then your name comes up in the street i'm going to say hi
1:07
nicky mansfield is this happy new year everyone happy new year nicky just make
1:10
you feel good nicky it's quarter of a century since 2000 there you go let that
1:14
swirl around in your head for a while sarah jones how you doing says happy new
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year happy new year sir glenn murphy mbe i love saying that out loud.
1:22
Greetings, sir. Nice to see you. Louise Akers here. Happy New Year.
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It's not Louise Akers, is it?
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You told me at Therapy Expo again, every year I'll get your name on.
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Achir, Achir, Asher. There you go. Cecily Hislop is in the house.
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Hey, Cecily, good to see you. Lovely to see all these names,
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all the regulars turning up. And Tracy Marshall as well. Happy New Year to you all.
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Good to see you, people. Thank you for joining us live. And if you've got any
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questions, which I hope you have about tonight's topic,
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then feel free to chuck them in the comments right
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then episode 223 the first
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of 2025 which is incidentally one week every week since the covid restrictions
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were lifted that's where we are 223 weeks away where people are going to have
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to wear gloves do or not am i allowed to go to work should wear masks and stuff
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so that's how much time has passed since we started in november 2020.
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And we're going to start 2025 with a focus on Business Month,
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bringing you expert guests who will be showing hugely important advice on how
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to get the best out of your clinic when you work alone on a team or maybe you
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yourself have a team of healthcare professionals.
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So in part one of these
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four episodes entitled coaching skills for clinicians
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secret sauce or empty bandwagon my
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special guests coming up very shortly are going to be joe turner founder of
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mehab.co.uk and host of umatter podcast and also joanne elphinstone leading
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elite performance movement and rehabilitation consultant and director of gems
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movement so if you've joined us for the live recording then feel free like i
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say to type questions in and share your own experiences in the comment section.
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And if you listen to the podcast, get your pen and paper ready.
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There's going to be loads of things to write down. And if you do have any questions,
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then probably the best place to go is YouTube.
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Use that comment feed because it stays very relevant and up to date.
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And I'm always going to go on it in case there are any questions,
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which I can answer myself or direct towards our guests.
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There we go. Without further ado, let's bring up my very special guests for
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tonight, Joe Turner and Joanne Elphinstone.
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Jo and Joanne, how are you? Hi Matt. Good evening Matt.
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Are you both being so calm? No one knows what happened last night so we won't
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even mention it. There's no point at all, we're professionals.
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It's all just, everything comes together naturally. We're not swans at all,
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our feet are totally relaxing and calm.
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So thank you very much for joining us, I really appreciate it.
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Especially Joanne because you're
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obviously not in the UK, you're in what part of Australia you're in?
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I'm in Brisbane Matt. In Brisbane, there you go. So which makes it summer and
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earthly hours and not too bad this morning. It's 6am or 7am,
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so that's okay. It's late here.
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Everyone's already been out doing their workouts for 5am. Of course, yeah.
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I forgot you live in a country where it's actually nice to get up in the morning
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as opposed to just depressing and sad. Yeah, so it's good.
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Right. Really excited to have you both and really looking forward to hearing
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you talk about the topic for tonight.
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Before we do it, I know this is so difficult, particularly with guests who have
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done so much and got so much to talk about.
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I know particularly, Joanne, you're worried about this. I'll give you a bit
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of extra time to think about it. So we'll start with Jo.
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For people who don't know about you, then maybe a little elevator speech,
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but particularly in how you got involved in coaching, which is obviously the
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topic tonight. But yeah, if you'd be so kind.
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Sure. Thank you, Matt. Well, the thing you were too polite to mention is this
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is difficult with people who are so old and the career is so long.
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They can't remember what happened.
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So my long career now spans 29 years. I have to do something for my 30th busy anniversary next year.
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So, yes, I am a physiotherapist by trade of 29 years now.
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And about 20-25 years in I started to think hmm is this how I want to carry
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on working for the rest of my career and I went off and spent a whole year doing
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a lot of personal development.
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Hand on heart I was probably having some kind of career if not personal crisis
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but I really enjoyed everything that I did that year.
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I had a lot of coaching myself, I received a lot of coaching and even at that point,
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going through that process made me realise how many parallels there were already
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with what I did as a physio, but also how that approach could really enhance what I did.
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So at the end of that year, I enrolled in another course I offered to train as a coach myself.
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So by this stage, we were, I didn't know it, but we were just on the heels of the pandemic.
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And I finished my training in the end of 2019.
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At that point, not knowing if I was going to have a career change,
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go off and coach anybody and start a new life as a coach.
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Then through the pandemic, I needed practice clients. I wanted to get into coaching
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lots of different people.
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But as it happened, I ended up exclusively coaching doctors and other clinicians
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through the pandemic, because it was a time when everybody needed so much support.
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And so by the end of the pandemic, I'd almost naturally formed this niche,
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and I was really enjoying coaching clinicians.
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That was kind of aside from my own clinical practice. The other fabulous thing
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that happened is I sort of fell back in love with my own clinical profession,
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which I think for a lot of people, they might have said the pandemic did the opposite.
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But when I got back into working again.
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I just realised how much the coaching approach was informing my work naturally and consciously.
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And I was appreciating the benefits for my clients and also for myself.
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I then, I won't go on too long, but I read an article that Joanne had written
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in InTouch magazine for Physio First.
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And she was talking about exactly these things, how to incorporate a coaching
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approach into clinical practice. And it resonated so much. So I invited Joanne onto my podcast.
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I had known of her, as we all have for most of my career, because of all the
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fabulous gems work she's done.
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And we, you know, within about five minutes of talking, we realised how aligned we were in our thinking.
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And I'll let Joanne continue this story. But that kind of led to eventually
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us deciding to launch Coaching Unpeeled.
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So I'm going to stop talking and let Joanne take home from there.
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That's fantastic. I mean, obviously, Joanne turner spend most of the time talking
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about somebody else as opposed to herself which is,
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totally huge it's fantastic yeah yeah we got somebody else with his most people
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that's fine they're wonderful people in here if you listen to the audio podcast
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obviously you can't see this um if you do want to see the images then obviously
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we're on youtube but um yeah me had because you matter it's beautiful woman it's just well,
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language is your thing isn't it joe you love playing around with words i'm sure
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we'll have some orange puns coming up shortly but yeah i
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love and and also i just recommend there's a facebook group which we
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will give links to and there'll be in the show notes as well and
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i think i don't know how long to be going on for but at least once a week that's just
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a word you like and you and you relate that beautifully to being
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a friday word of the week it's word of the week it's just so wonderful
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and it's just with so much let's use
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a nice word rubbish out there on social media you know
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that the private group and rehab is just something which will make you think
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yeah this is making my day better as opposed to spitting out more crap so i
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encourage people to go along to mehab.uk and maybe look out the facebook group
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as well but hopefully now we've
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given time for the one and only joanne eltonston who inspired joe turner.
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Oh why what we're gonna do a lot of people hopefully
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will know you from gems movement our methodology and
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everything but yes tell us joe start from the very beginning and
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sit back oh my gosh i you
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know you're going to regret that amount because where joe's like i've been doing
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this for 29 years and she's saying and everyone's known about joanne for so
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long i'm like that's because i've been around like a dinosaur 35 years and not
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counting but still loving it and you know i really picked up on what you were
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saying there joe about people who have been falling out of love,
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you know with you know working and this
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really challenging domain and like like like
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joe and there's so many amazing people that
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we want to keep with us and they've been a bit fed up and this
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is one of the reasons that that joe and i have really taken this this leap you
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know because i want to help people fall back in love with what they're doing
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so yes you said from the beginning be warned the coaching side of things i came
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from a different place because i actually started out as a different kind of
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coach. I used to coach men's volleyball.
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And swimming. And you might say, people might think, oh, that's not the same thing.
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It's just like, well, actually, the groundwork for all of this started right
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there, which is, you know, how do we bring together, you know,
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a disparate group of, you know, young men, all of whom want to be a star and, you know,
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how do we bring that into something that's like a coherent, cohesive,
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you know, team that's self-sufficient and motivated and resilient,
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all of those kinds of things. And that was back in the 80s.
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So that's where, you know, the first parts of really working on,
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you know, motivation and behaviour and psychology.
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All of these things that then got woven into GEMS quite kind of implicitly.
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So we had been talking about coaching since the early 2000s.
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So it's that whole business of how we manage the interaction dynamic between
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us and client or each other.
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I've kind of been built in and then, you know, time went on and the pandemic came.
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And for me, as with everybody else, things changed. But what I really noticed
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was my clients seemed to be coming for not just how do I help myself to move better?
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How do I overcome some of the things that I've been struggling with?
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But they were actually coming with little notebooks about their lives and the
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intersection between their lives and how they were feeling.
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And that's just like, hmm, okay, this is a different thing that people want
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from me now, a different kind of support.
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And my audience wanted a different kind of support from me.
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Hence, many, many sodden Instagram videos of me in the park in my waterproofs,
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you know, talking about things.
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So, yeah, fast forward, I thought I want to get more training in this field like Jo did.
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And again, found the resonances with what was already happening.
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But then really drilled down and tightened up a lot of things as well. And that was fantastic.
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After I'd done that article that got Jo and I together. So it's kind of a little bit out of sync.
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But that became evident after we'd done that podcast.
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I mean, I was already moving in to getting the coaching idea more explicit and
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less implicit in the work that I've been doing.
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And then here we are together finding common ground in how do we help people
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to feel better about what they're doing by understanding some really,
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you know, they're not updated principles, but they're really fundamental about humans.
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And we're very much about re-humanizing the whole business of either being a client,
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someone who's coming to somebody looking for help, or the target audience for
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Coaching Unpeel, which is the professionals who are doing something really hard,
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which is working with people with all of they come with,
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day in, day out, doing a fantastic job of it, but sometimes feeling a little
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bit like they're drowning.
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Me so uh so yeah that's a bit of a convoluted all
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all within the whole gems ethos which is all about moving
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beautifully whether that happens to be in your bodies or in your
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lives that's so cool i love that i
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love that segue from gems movements into yeah whether it's moving your body
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just moving through life car you two i wish i could just give you one question
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where you two could just speak for the next 40 minutes i could just sit back
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and relax because it's like i mean i think you must be familiar with that it's
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so relaxing you know i love watching the reaction on social media what people
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realise that Joe turned into the Duranels.
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We're going to join you for what is this one? Joe Squibb. Joe Squibb, yeah.
13:31
Yeah, it's amazing. It's so wonderful when, and also it's just a lovely message
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as well because I think we've talked about a few times, or quite a lot on the podcast, how COVID,
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despite the tragedy and the drama and the hardship and people are still suffering from it.
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Did join people together suddenly clinicians were talking to
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each other going i know you're my competition and i know i've really
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worried about you stealing my clients last but now i really want a bit of
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advice on this kind of protected clothing especially working
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and i'm feeling a bit weird here it's the same for you and it it sounds
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weird saying a positive thing came out of covid but it kind of is i
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think it put people you know talking which is
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and i think you could get together is is like a knock-on of
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that it's still happening educators come together thinking rather than
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competing with each other trying to get buns and seats are different places it's
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like no let's join together our forces because you really are
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demonstrating that you're helping the public around this condition
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or patient rather than fighting the competition sort of
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thing so when joe and i often talk about yes.
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Obviously we've we've both done a lot of things independently and
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we're actually quite both quite independent characters and when
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we started talking about working together we we were
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sort of curious as to how that might work but we're both at
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a stage in our lives and careers where perhaps we were we were
14:45
ready for that kind of thing and what we realize because we
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you're obviously not physically together very often and we
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try and work on little bits and bobs but it's when we
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get together particularly in person and talk that's when
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truly better stuff it's a
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cliche but better than the sum of our parts and it's such
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a lovely collaboration because we always know
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something really magical is going to come out that neither
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of us foresaw and probably neither of us could have produced individually or
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it would have been hard much harder work which actually
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we always have this sort of
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backdrop don't we Joanne we keep reminding ourselves this is supposed to be
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about ease and actually that fits so well with the coaching approach because
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that was what made me fall back in love with my profession because it made it
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easier and that's been the backdrop
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of everything Joanne and I have done together so far Absolutely, Jo.
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And also ease and values, because there's one thing that we've kept coming back to.
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We've made this a little capsule of really, really walking the walk. It's important to us.
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And we road tested, working together by doing a retreat behind the clinical
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mask earlier last year, just to see how does this,
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how does this go? How can we work to our values over and over again?
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And values can sound a bit heavy, but they're not, are they, Joe?
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Is it fun? Does it flow?
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Is there ease? Does it make us feel joyful?
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All of those kinds of values are so important. And then bringing the really great quality of work.
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It's not like you have to do great quality work or you can have fun and find
16:28
some flow and some ease. It's about actually them being fully integrated.
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So we've been holding each other to account on that, haven't we? Absolutely.
16:36
Excellent. Very exciting. And we're going to, as we talk now,
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we'll delve into what Coaching Unpeel is
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going to involve and there will be news at
16:45
the end of this for people who are listening or joining us live as to
16:48
how you can involved in that but yeah
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let's let's we've mentioned the word coaching quite a lot now and
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it is a buzzword at therapy expo this year which
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some of the listeners and people in the live lounge now attended you
17:00
see there's buzzwords last year i think it was about the theory
17:03
of chaos gym sport preparing for chaos and that's sort
17:06
of the demand the new kind of dynamic demands of preparing someone
17:09
for return to sport this year i think it was quite a lot of coaching and
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there's quite a lot i'm talking about that and i like
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the way i think it's probably connected to the fact the title which I
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shared a very boring title with you and there was like a bit of I could hear
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the cogs going around and suddenly this Facebook message came back
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saying Matt how about coaching skills for clinicians secret sauce
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or empty bandwagon so I sense with that title coaching's great but there's kind
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of a caveat coming there's something like yeah Joanne is nodding again yes you
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bet there is so can you tell us a little bit about that what is it patient what
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is it people listening in clinicians should be checking and watching out for
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when they do see this massive way of coaching, they do a.
17:47
This is where Jo and I go, you, yeah, me. You came up with that brilliant title,
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Joanne, so I'm going to ban you.
17:52
Yeah, that's good. This is what I love about this woman.
17:56
It's all right, I just passed the button. Integrity all the way.
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Yeah, yeah. I'm going to call it integrity. You call it passing the button. All right. I'm good.
18:05
Yeah, it's so interesting because, yes, everyone's, it's almost like,
18:08
you know, this coaching bubble has appeared and everyone thinks,
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oh, this is something really new.
18:13
And coaching has been around a long time. It just hasn't been recognized so
18:18
much in the rehabilitation fields.
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So, you know, you're in a sporting field. People are used to referring to coaching.
18:27
But for us, you know, it's a very different thing.
18:31
So what is a little overwhelming, I think, at the moment is the number of people
18:35
jumping on that, offering trainings, often having just done a training themselves,
18:40
like, oh, this is a good idea.
18:42
And now we'll make this thing and we'll put it out there. And it's,
18:45
of course, covering such an enormous scope out there.
18:50
You can see coaches on everything. You can get coached on better tiddlywinks if you want to.
18:55
So there's a lot going on out there. And so what Jo's very experienced,
19:01
I'm very experienced, I think we can definitely say that.
19:04
What we wanted to do for people is to go, you know, you could spend a lot of
19:08
time going into all of these trainings, trying to pick up a snippet of relevance
19:14
somewhere along the line.
19:17
But the thing is that this is not about training people to be coaches.
19:21
It's about how to use coaching principles to actually be able to structure their
19:27
treatment sessions and their interventions,
19:29
to really see their patient relationships or their client relationships in a different way,
19:36
and to start to understand how with coaching,
19:40
we get people out of the expert fixer,
19:43
receiver dynamic, which creates unbelievable pressure, you know,
19:48
the full weight of responsibility.
19:51
And then we have to have a patient who is compliant. You know,
19:55
someone must ask me, how do you get the patient to comply?
19:57
I'm like, I don't actually think about that a lot, you know,
20:01
because it's for me to set up a dynamic to invite someone in to collaborate
20:06
with me and together that, we make a plan.
20:10
Now that's really different to someone coming in the door and saying,
20:14
fix me and me going, okay, what does that look like?
20:18
So what we want to do here is say, you know, there's a lot of brilliant stuff
20:23
out, but the fundamentals that are relevant to permissions,
20:28
we can actually get that down to some really simple, clear principles that people
20:34
will start to recognize.
20:37
So again, people are so exhausted CPD-wise and they go, oh my God, is this another thing?
20:44
Is it another thing? I'm overwhelmed.
20:46
Actually, it's about the opposite. It's about dealing away some of the stuff
20:51
and some of the beliefs that we have, because that's what I hear in GEMS all
20:56
the time, all the beliefs that are making life harder and actually going, Is it true?
21:01
Yeah, that thing, that feeling that you're having, that over-responsibility
21:05
and, oh, if it goes wrong and da-da-da-da.
21:08
Actually, it's about clearing away a lot of that and realising this is just
21:13
about an interpersonal reaction and understanding what's happening in that and
21:19
knowing actually how to start moving that in a direction that is actually comfortable
21:23
and productive for both parties.
21:26
It's there's so much in there but i'm
21:29
hoping now people listen forecast already because it wasn't that
21:32
clear from the title obviously words just fail you
21:35
when there's just eight words what the skill we're talking
21:38
about is going to be and how it's going to why we put this as the
21:41
leader in part one and focus on business but
21:43
so now we're there's gonna be lots of things there which i
21:46
think and feel free to chip in people are doing this live if
21:49
you want to but straight away you've mentioned for example non-compliance
21:53
so it's one of the biggest conversations i think amongst there because oh and
21:56
they won't do their exercises and and how they're supposed to feel better
21:58
if they still get their try and get their pb every saturday and it's it's
22:01
a problem which a lot clinicians face you've addressed that how coaching you
22:04
help that you mentioned burnout as well that sensation that
22:07
you're the fixer and you've got to try and help everybody so we're addressing
22:11
that and it's so yeah so that's already now we're talking about how coaching
22:16
is going to change your business but i love the way you say that it's not about
22:20
adding another kind of something into your toolbox and something and it's just
22:24
cramming wide with hammers and screwdrives and spanners and something else. It's an over kind of.
22:30
Covering principle which is going to help tidy up that toolbox
22:32
and make it all kind of make sense and work together if i've
22:35
interpreted that right excellent summary matt couldn't couldn't
22:38
have but i i just used a whole lot of words to do what you've just
22:41
done oh do you want mine sounded crap compared to yours it was beautiful
22:44
i'm going to keep pinching myself to remind myself
22:47
that i need to chime in sometimes but yeah i just
22:50
really want because what you said is so important there's so much cpd out
22:53
there and there's so many podcasts and i really
22:56
want to make sure this year that as I
22:59
get such great guests in like yourselves that the
23:02
people listening realize how this is practical how this can be applied I mean
23:06
there's there's times where you do just want to listen to a podcast just to
23:09
relax and enjoy and a bit of mindfulness and that but these podcasts want to
23:13
make sure people realize this is practical stuff you can start putting in to
23:16
work tomorrow and you start thinking about so and that's what you've already done so thank you.
23:22
Jo would you like to add to that what Joanne has said did anything come to your mind?
23:26
Yeah I think Joanne explained really
23:30
nicely the distinction we're making is I suppose
23:33
Joanne and I have gone off and because of because this is what was available
23:38
we've both done more generalized coaching courses and then through our experience
23:44
we kind of worked out how this really applies directly to clinical work.
23:51
And so when we teach clinicians, we want to sort of bypass that stage for them and.
24:01
When we're teaching on the course, we're going to be very consciously relating
24:06
back to a clinical scenario regularly.
24:09
So there are certain principles that all coaching qualifications will teach
24:15
you, things like establishing an agreement, first of all, with your client.
24:21
You will all be doing this to an extent, maybe not as consciously as we're going
24:25
to talk about in coaching, but this is the first stage where you start to personalise care.
24:32
And the reason it takes you away from that pressured fixer mode is that the
24:39
agreement comes 90% from your clients.
24:43
You are there to ask good questions, to draw out the most meaningful agreement
24:49
that your client from the word go is 100% bought into because it's personal to them.
24:55
There's an outcome associated with it, which is very personal to them. It's meaningful.
25:01
That's why Joanne says this whole issue of compliance is off the table straight
25:05
away, because they're not complying with your process.
25:09
They are working with you to design their end point and to an extent how they're going to get there.
25:16
I say to an extent because after the agreement is established,
25:20
then you move into this that really is the essence of coaching.
25:24
It's this curious stage where you're exploring together.
25:30
And I guess the difference here between standard clinical practice and a coaching
25:35
approach is you really need to come with no agenda or at least...
25:41
A willingness to withhold your agenda, the thing you think is right,
25:47
your years of experience, the things that have worked well with other clients
25:50
before, and to allow the client to explore different ways of getting to that end point.
25:56
And again, finding the way that really will stick with them and be meaningful to them.
26:01
Just before we came on tonight, I noticed a post come up from Ben Cormack on
26:06
Twitter, and it just said, the most useful exercise for battle paying or something like that.
26:12
And he said, unsurprising, here it is.
26:15
I'll get the words wrong, but it was something like something that's personal
26:18
to them that they can sustain and is meaningful to them.
26:21
That's the holy grail. Ben's right. And that's what you're searching for in
26:25
this curious stage of coaching.
26:28
Then you move through to a phase of, you know, we do need our clients to take
26:32
action, but they've got to articulate it.
26:36
It's not us then going, okay, so we've done this today. And these are the points
26:39
we came out and this is what you're going to do. Blah, blah,
26:40
blah, blah, blah, here's your stick man, I'm sorry, Arnold, off you go.
26:44
Again, you're asking them, so what are the points that have really been important
26:49
to you today? And what feels like it would be the best place to start?
26:52
And okay, so how might you go about that?
26:54
And of course, you're going to bring in your expertise at certain points,
26:58
because you will have an idea of some exercise, some approach,
27:04
which might have worked well in the past.
27:07
But this is where I repeat, repeatedly quote Joanne, because I love what she
27:11
said when I asked her about this on the podcast.
27:13
She said, coaching is not withholding your expertise.
27:17
It's knowing the point at which to land it. And I love it because it just encompasses
27:22
that whole curious phase where you're patient, where you wait,
27:27
where you trust, you wait and see what your client can come up with themselves.
27:31
And then when necessary, you land that nugget, which just supercharges
27:34
that moment and sets them off on
27:37
to the next phase or more quickly towards their solution i've
27:42
forgotten what the question was i hope
27:45
that was a good answer that's fine
27:47
no that was a very good answer i'm just letting people know in the chat that
27:52
i think what you're hearing is birds of paradise from brisbane at 6 a.m in the
27:55
morning i think that's the noises you're hearing aussie magpies maybe exotic
28:00
bird so joanne if you see me muting your mic whilst joe's i think it's beautiful
28:04
i've been thinking This is a beautiful background for podcasts.
28:06
I mean, it's always, but yeah, it sounds like you're living with just like.
28:09
Little wombat's jumping around behind me it's our
28:13
team australia well yeah well
28:16
we've got a little magpie chortling away out here as
28:19
they do but but actually i'm hearing a different thing it's kind
28:22
of like almost like a funny little bell like well sarah jones
28:25
might have got it she said aussie magpie sarah's very
28:28
clever i'm sure she's right yeah well done sarah oh there
28:31
we go well i've got my noise cancelling headphones and
28:34
so forth no that's fine i'll just eat it whilst you're not talking that's fine
28:37
brilliant i think yes just worried about
28:40
what's going on they were looking around i think it's beautiful it's like
28:43
those headphones we try and go to sleep and they've got like whale noises or birds
28:46
going on you just kind of relax i think it's fine oh good excellent i just want
28:49
to mention the podcast because i haven't mentioned it yet i'll put a little
28:52
screen up here for you guys if you watching the live stream so yeah you matter
28:56
is the podcast obviously you can listen to it in all the same places spotify
28:59
and apple podcasts and all over the place And I do recommend you have a little listen to it.
29:04
It started back in 2021. In fact, happy fourth birthday, Joe Turner. Oh, thank you.
29:09
So yeah, four years since your first one in January. You're starting school looking.
29:12
And the episode which we're referring to was in December. So I think it's the
29:17
most recent one if you go and have a look at it.
29:19
And it was with Joe Turner and Joanna Offiston talking about Coaching Uphill.
29:23
So you may want to have a little listen to that as well, if you're enjoying the content tonight.
29:27
And then just trail back for four years to all the other wonderful speakers
29:30
and guests who are in their um you matter podcast so there we go.
29:36
Sarah jones says i live with a bird nerd nice nice driving there bird nerd so i wanted to check,
29:43
i like this idea of i think
29:46
part of the problem is we think of coaching as being a one-way thing we kind
29:50
of confuse it with just instructing or like a tennis coach is
29:53
where you teach the tennis player even though in reality it's not and true
29:56
coaching is where the the expert is listening to
29:59
their clients working out their training and how they can come
30:02
up with a plan you know together but I think we kind
30:06
of think of yeah coaching as pedestal kind of
30:08
thing one person up here other person down there taking instructions in the
30:11
profession on but obviously that's not what we're talking about now so could
30:15
you yeah expand on that a little bit just to clarify that for our listeners
30:18
uh should I take the one Jo yeah go for it okay so you know this is an interesting
30:25
perception that people have.
30:28
And of course, in the world of sports coaching, that can happen.
30:31
They're not the best coaches, of course.
30:33
So if I look at the examples that we might use from a sporting background first
30:39
and then a clinical background,
30:40
even with my athletes, and I still coach and I still do performance work with
30:46
both performing artists and athletes.
30:49
So we have a discussion, the athlete goes and does something, they come back.
30:54
And usually when When we first start, they're looking expectantly at me for feedback.
30:59
And I'll be there going, what did you notice there?
31:03
And then they're a bit like perplexed because no one's actually asked them a question.
31:07
Well, she's like, well, let's go again. And just tell me what you're noticing.
31:13
I'll give it some kind of context or detail sometimes because you don't want
31:16
to leave people swimming. So sometimes you can leave it very broad.
31:19
And sometimes you've got to bring it in until someone learns how to that their
31:25
actual opinions matter and that they can actually pay attention to what is actually
31:29
happening for themselves and that that is valuable.
31:33
And the same thing happens with clients, you know, people who are coming in
31:38
with injury, for example.
31:40
The people who come to sleep usually have been around the traps a lot.
31:44
And a lot of people have been telling them, this is what's wrong with you.
31:48
And I know how to fix you. Oh, it didn't work. It must be you.
31:53
Or there's another category of clinicians who goes the same thing,
31:57
but instead of it must be you, it must be me. and then they go into a whole
32:01
welter of failure and not being good enough. And, of course,
32:03
none of that is actually true.
32:06
So if instead, you know, Joe talked about the idea of agenda.
32:12
We talk a lot in terms of the difference between having a purpose and having an agenda.
32:16
When you've got an agenda, you're driving towards an expected outcome.
32:20
So people going through our program will come back and say, oh,
32:23
you know, I failed at this. And like, please tell me about it.
32:27
They've set up the patient or the client to do something.
32:30
The expected outcome didn't occur.
32:33
And the clinician then turns it on themselves.
32:36
I did something wrong. I picked the wrong thing. I didn't do the right cue.
32:41
None of this is true. So if we actually shift that up and say,
32:45
well, what did you learn?
32:47
Oh, I learned that I picked the wrong thing. Let's start again.
32:51
So you've set the patient up.
32:52
Something unexpected occurs. You go, how interesting to the client.
32:58
What did you notice about that? The client says, I don't know,
33:01
because no one's ever asked them a question.
33:03
So we're just like, well, we're going to do it again. And just this part of
33:07
your body, just notice what actually, what do you notice about that?
33:12
What do you notice about the pressure under your foot? What do you notice about
33:14
what muscles you're using?
33:16
You give them something to get going.
33:18
And then they notice something.
33:22
Brilliant. Okay. So if we change this a little bit, what do you notice now?
33:26
Is it the same or is it different?
33:28
And we're away. And the whole process is now moving instead of hitting a start point.
33:34
And then what we find is that we learn something entirely different to what
33:38
we would have expected that we couldn't have predicted because it's arisen, you know,
33:44
in the moment and it's possibly and probably the most relevant thing that the
33:49
two of you could have learned today.
33:51
So suddenly we don't have a failure. We have, oh, isn't that amazing that we found that out?
33:57
And then the person goes home and they start, because the last thing I say to
34:01
people is, oh, I'm really looking forward to hearing what you find out between
34:04
now and next time. So I've primed them.
34:07
So when they come back, they know that I'm going to say, oh, what did you find out?
34:11
And they can tell me all sorts of stuff. You know, oh, I notice I do this funky
34:16
thing with my body when I put, like I'm filling up the kettle and I do this funny thing.
34:20
Why do I do that? I'm like, I don't know. What do you think?
34:24
And then again, it's coming away from me and it's giving it to them,
34:29
but we're working together.
34:32
So it is the very opposite to that a coach is someone who tells you what to
34:38
do to a coach is helping someone to find out what's actually happening and with
34:44
some support, they're going out the next step.
34:47
Can I just jump in there on that point? I think that's another point where the
34:52
ease comes in for the clinician and the agency comes in for the client.
34:57
So we're always talking about how time poor we are.
35:01
But what Joanne's just described is seeing your client contact time as just the opening up space.
35:09
So it's quite possible when you adopt a coaching approach that it will just,
35:14
you get to the end of a session, it will just feel like you opened up a lot
35:18
of unanswered questions.
35:19
And that can feel quite unnerving when you're taught or you might have been
35:24
taught that your contact time with a client involves hearing the problem,
35:30
deciding on a solution, going away with a plan.
35:33
The idea of coming away, of having just exposed a problem, talked about a few
35:37
things that might mean and nothing else feels frankly quite terrifying if you've
35:41
never used that approach.
35:43
But I can certainly tell you from the last five years experience of coaching
35:48
that an awful lot, possibly even more of the learning goes on between the session,
35:54
like Joe has just said, and probably the more important learning.
35:58
And as long as you get into the habit of starting your next session asking about,
36:04
so what's happened, what have you learned since I saw you last time,
36:08
then that time pressure suddenly becomes much less of a problem because it's
36:13
not about the 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes you're with that client.
36:17
It's what's happened in the week, two weeks, one month in between.
36:22
All of that counts. And again, that's another way that takes the pressure off
36:26
you and also shifts the agency back to the client, which, frankly,
36:30
you know, if people are worried about evidence based and nice guidelines and stuff,
36:34
doesn't this just feed beautifully into the idea of person centred care,
36:41
giving patients agency and also preventative care?
36:45
We're hearing politicians talking daily about taking things into the community,
36:51
which I often think is an easy phrase to throw out there and I'm not sure they
36:55
know what they're actually saying.
36:56
But to me, taking care into the community is preventative care.
37:00
That's equipping people with the skills and reminding them that they have the
37:05
skills and the knowledge to design processes and solutions and rehab programs for themselves.
37:11
All you're doing often in your contact time with them is is just unlocking that
37:16
knowledge and letting them know that you trust them and believe in them.
37:22
And arguably joe picking up from what you were saying sorry matt i'm just this is.
37:30
Well indeed but it's it's i would say allows you to be more truly objective,
37:36
You know, we're all taught we're supposed to be objective.
37:40
And yet, actually, I would contest that. Because if you are hearing people's
37:45
subjective, you know, and it doesn't mean that's, I'm not talking just about
37:50
people working clinically here.
37:51
I also educate people who are out in the community in other forms of movement professions because,
37:59
quite frankly, people aren't getting their needs met within the medical sector
38:04
and they are seeking help from people who really want to be able to help them
38:07
but haven't necessarily been given that opportunity.
38:11
But the thing is, if we're listening to people and we're already filtering what
38:16
they're saying to pick out the things that we think are important,
38:19
are we being truly objective?
38:21
If we're observing someone's movement already with an agenda...
38:26
You know, and I always get this teaching gauge is hilarious because there'll
38:29
be the person who's been taught that the most important thing to look for is
38:33
great-toed dorsiflexion.
38:35
And then the next person will be taught the most important thing to look for is what is that me doing?
38:39
Already we've filtered out so much available information.
38:43
We are not truly objective and we are not truly responding to what is really there.
38:49
So this this kind
38:53
of knocks on into the whole dynamic of being truly present and responding to
38:59
what is really there rather than driving an agenda which then you know puts
39:06
a patient in a hopefully a little box for you but see I don't know about you
39:09
but my patients never fit in the box.
39:12
I get all the unboxed people.
39:14
And so I can't do that, you know, and it does lead to an enormous amount of
39:20
stress in the professional, the practitioner, if they don't realize that that's what's happened.
39:27
And now they're up a dead end with nowhere to go, feeling stressed and thinking,
39:33
I need to, I need to fix this.
39:35
And it actually can be avoided by starting to understand this process that joe's
39:40
talking about it's amazing there's so much in there which i'm hoping listeners
39:45
are thinking about um and applying for sales and reflecting and it's all major.
39:52
Implications of what this can do but tiny little tweaks we're
39:55
not kind of asking people to totally wipe the
39:58
table clean of everything they've done now it's just little kind of
40:00
ones little changes it's just like your perfect example of
40:03
just asking the questions they're coming up with another the question i think
40:06
it's easy for listeners to see or at least it is for me that if you
40:09
spend your time doing that then you i can
40:12
see the totally the time with not burning out because there's less
40:15
pressure on you and also the patient is
40:18
going to feel happy because suddenly they're going that that that that person
40:21
listened to me it's the first time they've actually involved me so you're going
40:23
to get a happier patient they're going to come back gladly you're going
40:26
to open up then which means they're probably going to give
40:29
you much clearer idea of how to help them because they're
40:32
going to talk more about their lives so it's it's just win-win-win so far we've
40:36
only been talking for 40 minutes so it's very exciting it's just can i just
40:42
say one thing that's just arisen as a result of what you just said ma'am we
40:46
do if you're working in the profession professional sense,
40:50
we do have to be aware of when our identity comes up as an issue here because
40:57
i i frequently here I get feedback from the people in the trainings that something's gone really well.
41:04
But it doesn't feel good because they feel that they haven't made it happen.
41:09
And that's a really interesting place to be, you know, because in their world,
41:14
they needed to have done something to the patient to have elicited a result to be doing their job.
41:23
And when they've actually, they've not realized that creating that space for
41:29
the person to solve this problem, you know, I was going to say solve it themselves,
41:35
but they're doing it with help, with your health.
41:37
But it feels like you're not doing anything. And therefore, we get this bit
41:41
of an identity discomfort because we feel that we haven't done it.
41:47
And that is the catch with this, is that understanding, getting above the,
41:55
you know, the very, very mechanical aspects of the treatment, getting above it.
42:01
You're going, you know what, I'm actually, I'm either a healthcare practitioner
42:05
or I'm a community-based movement practitioner.
42:08
I'm actually going to get up above that level and actually create this dynamic
42:13
that, as Joe says, is truly person-centred.
42:18
And there is the evidence. When people want to know about the evidence base,
42:21
the evidence base for that person-centred care, the evidence base for the communication
42:27
dynamics, it's all there.
42:30
Yeah. So we're not being non-evidence-based and we just have to be a little
42:36
bit aware of what do we hinge our identity on as practitioners.
42:42
Excellent. I love that silence of just checking. I see Jo's face.
42:47
I'm thinking she's going to come up with something now and let's wait four seconds.
42:51
You know, I went through a process then, which actually I'm quite glad I went
42:57
through that process because there were at least three things that I was going to interject with then.
43:06
And with all of them, I said consciously, I went, is that going to add anything?
43:10
Or are you just saying that because of your ego? And in all three of them,
43:13
I went, no, I don't need to say it.
43:15
Now that's come about as a result of coaching.
43:18
Trust me, I have as big an ego as any clinician. I love being right.
43:22
I love finding the solution.
43:24
And it was so hard in coaching to learn to go through that analysis process.
43:33
And I had to more consciously ask myself in the start, why do you want to share
43:38
that funny little anecdote?
43:39
I love to make people laugh. It's one of my favourite things.
43:42
But if it's not serving the patient, sometimes it is, it's funny and it serves
43:47
the patient, which is brilliant.
43:48
But if it's just serving my ego that likes to make people laugh,
43:52
I don't need to share that anecdote.
43:53
If I want to add something to what Joanne's saying, because it makes me look
43:57
a bit clever, but it doesn't actually enhance what she said, I just need to shut up.
44:02
And, you know, that, frankly, shutting up is
44:06
quite a big part of adopting a
44:09
coaching process and and turning that
44:12
lens back on yourself and going do I really need to say
44:14
that is that really in service to the client or me
44:18
and my ego so there you are
44:20
that was my blank expression at the end that was great I paused someone and
44:24
then pointed it out I'm glad you didn't feel too self-conscious you actually
44:27
told us what was going through your brain at that moment so that's great I'm
44:30
conscious at the time but that reminds me or kind of brings a nice segue into
44:35
the fact that I think you mentioned it on the podcast as well but there's a feeling that.
44:41
This is all quite easy to do. I also, all I've got to do is let the client sort
44:44
of ask the questions to the client, let them respond and that's fine.
44:47
And then people might think, well, that's not such a big deal and I can easily do that tomorrow.
44:52
But it's, without making it sound really complicated, there's only little pitfalls
44:57
or ways you can make it work better.
44:58
And that's, I think, what I gather with Coaching Unpeeled is about you,
45:01
for people who feel that coaching is not actually part of your expertise, it really kind of is.
45:08
It's going to make you into a huge expert because it's going to make everything
45:11
you know already work that little bit better so i think
45:14
that's where people need to realize that that it's not something you're
45:17
just going to learn by reading something or listening to this podcast which is
45:19
what which is why we're going to talk about what coaching appeal is
45:22
going to be now so let me bring up a little screenshot for those who love the
45:26
visuals and you're very quiet i know you're all out in there in the live lounge
45:30
writing things down and i can hear you turning over your notepads with the spirals
45:33
and stuff but do feel free to ask some questions if you're in there so what
45:38
i'm going to bring up on the screen is yeah coaching appeal so what we've got here i'll put it on,
45:42
full screen but we can obviously hear you behind it on there so you can see it it's happening.
45:49
May we're talking so it's time for people to think about it and read about it
45:52
and sign up or maybe i'll let one of you talk about it and mention the dates
45:57
and what's going to be involved Shall I go here, Joanne? Brilliant, Jo.
46:02
Yeah. So you're absolutely right, Matt.
46:06
Well, we don't want to gaslight people that coaching is some hugely complex skill set.
46:12
And Joanne has explained that very nicely earlier on in the podcast.
46:17
But yes, you're right, Matt. There is a mastery to it. And yeah.
46:24
That requires practice, trying out of new ways of expressing things,
46:29
trying out some new questions, seeing what responses that elicits in a safe place.
46:35
So, of course, we need to start by teaching some principles and that will be
46:40
the sort of basis of the first workshop.
46:42
We've got a series of we've divided
46:46
into a series of steps and joanne and i can never
46:49
resist bringing in a little sort of story that
46:52
goes with it and i won't give that away now but we've thought of it
46:55
a nice way to make that fun not just a series
46:58
of teaching points but then the the
47:01
second and some of the second session and the
47:04
third session will actually involve workshopping because
47:07
it's you're right Matt it sounds it sounds
47:10
like it's a natural thing that as a clinician you're probably
47:14
going to have this coaching style within your
47:17
your natural sort of I don't know personality or toolkit and that is true you
47:23
will do but it strangely it probably isn't a way of being or speaking or interacting
47:29
that you have been taught to reinforce in your clinical practice possibly the opposite.
47:35
So we're going to need this workshopping time to try things out.
47:41
So I say to try new ways of questioning, to see what responses come back and
47:45
then to decide what you do with them.
47:48
Practice of giving feedback and summarising and then just picking out the really
47:54
potent points that are going to supercharge them forward into the next stage.
47:59
So the course is going to be structured, principal teaching to start with,
48:03
and then workshopping, practice, feedback once people have tried things out
48:08
with their clients. That's why we've spaced the sessions out.
48:11
Right. For people listening to the podcast, what we're talking about here is
48:14
a session on Saturday, the 3rd of May, 2025, and it's nine to one o'clock.
48:18
And then Sunday, the 4th of May, same time, nine o'clock, one o'clock.
48:23
And then a break, I imagine, to take that on board and do some practical stuff
48:26
yourself and then come back on Sunday, the 18th of May, 2025, nine to one o'clock.
48:31
I didn't mention before but the easiest way
48:34
probably to get to that although we will put links in the show
48:37
notes but if you are listening and you can do this now if you're in the live lounge
48:40
you want to have a little look then go to mehab.co.uk and
48:43
click on courses and you'll see what's on the screen here although that is a
48:47
little bit condensed version and you'll see a link there to tickets and everything
48:49
and details about it and I believe there is a first 15 sign ups will also receive
48:55
what is quoted as a bonus workshop what's that going to involve for people are
48:58
thinking about signing up now. Joanne, you can go on that one if you like.
49:02
The bonus workshop. Oh, sorry, I've muted you to cut out the magpie that's bringing
49:06
you back here, Joanne. There we go. Yes.
49:09
There we go. No, well, it's basically what we want to do is offer to those first
49:14
50 people who are going to join us,
49:16
a small group, a small group experience with Jo and I, to really drill down
49:20
into the skill base, because we'll set that up a little bit after you've had
49:25
some time to practice and you'll go away and you'll definitely have questions about things.
49:30
Some things will have gone really well. Some things will have been a bit perplexing.
49:34
So we want to offer that opportunity to really go through that in a bit more
49:38
personal context a little bit later after we've had that bit of time for practice.
49:45
Amazing. Sounds like it's going to be incredible. And between now and May,
49:49
let's imagine hopefully people are already signing up now because
49:52
they've just been swayed and just to turn it
49:55
into thanks to what you've mentioned now in the last 45 minutes what
49:58
could people be doing now or reading or looking at is there
50:01
material which you would recommend they look at as opposed
50:04
to the stuff you mentioned they should be avoiding between now and may where
50:06
should they go i'm gonna recommend a book off the top of my head by joanne help
50:13
me out here because it's got such a funny surname michael bungay it's a double
50:18
yeah what's the second bit michael bungay singer.
50:23
He's got a book again joanna you
50:25
might remember the title i don't but it's i think it's
50:28
a really uh oh he talks about the
50:31
advice monster that's not yeah he's been he's got his own podcast he's been
50:37
a guest on podcast learning about the advice monster and would be a really great
50:41
place to start that's what we've been talking about in terms of not being the
50:45
fix holding your ego back that kind of thing that's a first recommendation,
50:49
Joanne, I'm going to pass it back to you if you've got one.
50:52
Actually, Diane Klein, Time to Think.
50:55
Yes. A wonderful book, a very knowledgeable author, and it's all about why it is so important to give.
51:03
The time and space to formulate their own thoughts to bring in because,
51:09
you know, we tend to race through a session and often there's not enough space and we might think, oh,
51:15
they said to ask a question, you ask a question, there's two beats and an answer
51:19
hasn't come and then we're rolling on again.
51:22
So what Diane Klein is actually explaining from her field, she's not in the clinical world,
51:28
but she's in the consulting world, is why it is so important to actually provide
51:33
that space and how actually to hold that space to help someone to come up with a better answer.
51:40
That's such a great tip. And as a sort of third practical thing that you could
51:44
definitely go away without any need for education from us is go and play with silence.
51:49
I often get, so often my clients are actually clinicians themselves rather than clinical clients.
51:56
And i often get them to go and practice with their
51:59
own clients but also with family members of
52:02
just as joe says holding the pause longer you know ask a question allow the
52:09
science just to the silence to spread out into what probably feels like to you
52:13
a very uncomfortable length of time to start with just see what happens try
52:18
and try using less words less words and silence.
52:23
Definitely and nicky yes i see yeah let's bring
52:26
that up that is the one that is the one
52:29
nick is this the one michael bunga stania yeah yeah
52:32
i don't know as beautiful as joanne said it but the advice track be
52:35
humble stay curious and change the way you lead forever that's amazing we'll
52:38
make sure links to that go into the show notes i'm
52:41
conscious it's 8 58 so and i
52:44
know joanne you're off to tasmania very shortly aren't you
52:47
probably plane's probably waiting for you probably getting lost
52:50
calls that's what
52:52
the noise is not magpie at all it's somebody just holding up a bit of paper
52:55
saying jam we're not waiting much longer so thank you so much for joining right
52:59
so unfortunately five minutes before the end of episode 223 we lost the people
53:06
who joined us live and the recording wasn't safe for some reason so apologies
53:09
for that i'm tying this bit on to the end of the podcast.
53:12
And I may put it on YouTube as well, just so it comes to a natural conclusion
53:15
rather than just a sudden stop.
53:17
So, yeah, you didn't miss anything at all. It was really myself basically thanking
53:20
very much Joe Turner and Joanne Alphiston for the time they spent with me.
53:25
And just to let you guys know and reiterate that if you have been interested in this episode,
53:30
then there is a fantastic opportunity to work with Joe Turner and Joanne Alphiston
53:35
in their coaching unpeeled,
53:37
and which you can see on the diagram here is starting Saturday 3rd of May 2025
53:43
and that's the first session 9 to 1 p.m and then Saturday 4th of May 2025 9
53:49
a.m to 1 p.m and then there's a bit of time off to absorb all the information
53:52
you get a take from that and then the final session Sunday 18th May 2025.
53:57
For full details of that for tickets then go to mehab.co.uk forward slash courses.
54:03
And as we said, I think earlier on, the first 15 signups will also receive access
54:09
to a small bonus workshop with Joe Turner and Joanne Elphinstone.
54:14
So yeah, wonderful hour. I hope you very much enjoyed that. I'm sorry it kind
54:18
of stopped a bit abruptly.
54:19
Technical support are looking into it as always and so on.
54:23
So just to let you know, if you listen to the podcast, that the next Focus on
54:28
Business episode, part two, is going to be on Tuesday, January the 14th.
54:33
And that's going to be social media.
54:35
How much does soft tissue therapists really need it?
54:38
With special guests, Katie Bell
54:39
of Thrive Business Coaching and Daniel Lawrence of the Physio Channel.
54:44
So if you listen to the podcast and you like the idea of joining us live for
54:47
that, which I always kind of recommend if you can, I appreciate a lot of your
54:51
working and can't join on this live.
54:53
And I appreciate everyone who
54:54
downloads the podcasts, particularly if you leave a review and a rating.
54:57
But if you're thinking, actually, I could put eight o'clock aside on Tuesday.
55:01
I could join YouTube at that time for an hour. Then it would be an absolute
55:04
pleasure to see you there joining us all and asking questions directly to the
55:08
guests, whether you want to go on YouTube or the Sports Network Association Facebook page.
55:13
So with that said and done, thank you very much as always.
55:17
And take care of yourself. Take care of each other. And hopefully.
55:22
Music.