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Education Decisions as an Immigrant Parent: A Dialogue Between Generations · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

• 0:01
  Welcome everyone to another episode of Chatting with the Experts.
• 0:05
  This episode is different as you see I have a man here
• 0:10
  and he happens to be my son.
• 0:13
  And we're going to be talking about a topic that we discuss frequently at
• 0:17
  home and that is rearing children as immigrant parents in the United States and
• 0:22
  I guess it probably applies to anywhere else in the world that one may live
• 0:26
  that of course they didn't grow up in.
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  So, today, I will let him take the lead on this because it's something
• 0:34
  that, I mean, I said we talk about it a lot, but they're talking about
• 0:38
  it today from his perspective.
• 0:40
  So I'll let him introduce himself.
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  Okay.
• 0:42
  Hi.
• 0:42
  So I'm Joshua Okonneh.
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  I am, of course, the son of my mom here.
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  So my mother is a Grenadian Nigerian immigrant, and my father was a Nigerian
• 0:50
  immigrant, and I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina, and I'm 31 years old now.
• 0:54
  So in this decade of my life, this is a decade where it's more likely than
• 0:57
  any of the other decades that I will actually have a family of my own and gonna
• 1:01
  have to make some education decisions.
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  And so as a first generation, you know, Nigerian American who is a Christian,
• 1:09
  there's a lot of considerations that I have to take into account when you
• 1:12
  know, making those education decisions for my potential future children.
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  So, yeah, I'm looking forward to chatting about them.
• 1:19
  All right.
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  So, you know, as he's told you, is that...
• 1:23
  came to this country and we weren't familiar with the educational system here.
• 1:27
  And him being the first was kind of like a guinea pig.
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  I tell him that all apologies, but you know, we kind of
• 1:33
  were learning as he learned.
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  And so, of course, being that we were immigrants, we strove or we
• 1:39
  strive to make sure that he had the best, both him and his sister.
• 1:43
  And so we did our research and we send them to what we consider the best schools.
• 1:49
  Educational wise, I think we made great decisions, but you know, there
• 1:53
  were social parts of it that we, because we hadn't experienced that,
• 1:57
  we didn't have any living experience.
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  And so sometimes we have conversations about whether we made
• 2:04
  the right decisions or not, but
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  yeah.
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  We have to talk about it.
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  So I guess maybe the first thing I would say is like for any parent who's
• 2:11
  trying to make these decisions, I think that we have to kind of like, you
• 2:15
  know, understand and kind of be kind to ourselves and recognize that we're never
• 2:18
  going to make the perfect decisions.
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  And there's a lot of unknowns, you know, like a child is not a dog or kind of
• 2:25
  like, you know, just an inanimate object.
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  So they have a soul, a mind, emotions of their own, and they don't necessarily
• 2:31
  know how they're going to react when they're put into certain situations.
• 2:34
  They're growing and figuring out the world.
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  And so you could, you know, think you made the best decision and maybe it
• 2:40
  was for a time and then it kind of like changes as the child changes.
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  And so I think that's kind of the number one thing to note, which
• 2:46
  is that, you know, to a certain extent, it's an art, not a science.
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  It's an art, not a science.
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  Definitely was an art, I would say.
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  So, of course, like Kindergarten to middle school more or less uneven, would I say?
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  So I think that those are kind of years where I think one of the things to
• 3:08
  really consider is, so for kindergarten and kind of like the grade school,
• 3:13
  especially when the children are younger, there's kind of two schools of thought.
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  So I think on the one hand, that might be a time where you in some ways you want
• 3:23
  to invest a little bit, but not too much.
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  So one of the things I've heard is that elementary school education
• 3:28
  is really what sets the foundation for children going forward.
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  And I have seen that, you know, where if children, we tend to think that,
• 3:34
  okay, it just matters when they're in high school and they're preparing to
• 3:37
  really be kind of into the workforce.
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  But no, I would actually say in some ways I might consider investing in a school
• 3:45
  that I really felt was going to nurture my child and really teach them really strong
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  reading, especially reading skills and to a certain extent like arithmetic skills.
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  So I think that, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I do think that
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  in terms of kind of peer pressure and social influences, that's a really a
• 4:02
  time where that is much more minimized.
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  And so that may be a time, especially if you're a Christian or have another
• 4:08
  faith, where, you know, you kind of don't really consider that faith element as
• 4:12
  being very, very important because it's just, the children are really so small.
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  Mm hmm, mm hmm.
• 4:19
  Yes.
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  So, we talked about we mentioned that we said, prim...
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  not primary, actually, that's the British side of me, primary.
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  Elementary.
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  Elementary, elementary and middle school were uneventful.
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  Mm hmm.
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  But no more elementary, so I think okay, I'm warming up until
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  and even to a certain extent.
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  So in the States, I think you know middle school starts at age 12.
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  And I think by age 12 like I think by age 10 like children are really starting to,
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  you know, they're able to dress themselves and they're able to feed themselves
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  and they have their, you know, they're speaking and their speaking skills are
• 4:52
  excellent and so they're really able to explore especially these days where
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  we live in a more digitized world.
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  And so I really think I'm talking about you know, up until kind of
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  like maybe second or you know, second or third grade, essentially.
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  I think when a child is starting to be in third grade, I think that's
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  when we, you kind of want to think about, okay, what are the values and
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  the environment that my child is in?
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  You know?
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  And how strong of an education are they getting, and I think those are things
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  that you kind of have to balance.
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  And I think one of the questions that I kind of have is, for me as a Christian, I
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  don't, I think I'm definitely gonna wanna send my children to Christian school.
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  There's a lot of influences I wouldn't want to be in my children's
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  lives, but I think the question I have is, okay, would I home...
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  for me, would I homeschool or would I send the child to a Christian school knowing
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  that, you know, there's less I can control when it's out of the home, but there
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  could be some benefit of the child being able to interact with people all day.
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  Yeah.
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  Because the social benefit is also a part of the development.
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  Yes.
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  You know, and so I believe in spirit, soul, and body.
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  Yes.
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  I personally, I can only talk from what I did in sense of
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  you can get the social part.
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  I felt well, of course, in school and you can get the spiritual growth from church.
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  Bible,
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  Bible study,
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  Bible study, yeah.
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  Vacation Bible school, et cetera.
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  Yeah.
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  So that is an interesting observation, but the world has changed so much between
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  when you were a child, yeah, second grade and now, I mean, the digitalization
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  of the world and the exposure to so much more that are at our fingertips.
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  That's worrisome to me.
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  Yeah, that's worrisome to me, too.
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  And so, I think for me, that's one of the reasons that I don't think,
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  I think that I would be much more inclined to homeschool my child.
• 6:41
  I think that, you know, probably about 10 to 20 years ago I
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  personally saw homeschooling as a little unnecessary and extreme.
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  I thought you were depriving the child of social interactions.
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  But I think now just with the digitalization of the world, I think I'm
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  much more concerned about really kind of being able to shape my child's kind of
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  like experience and their life and, you know, and kind of saying, okay, you know
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  what, I know my child has to social needs.
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  But I can find a way to get my child to, you know, interact with
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  other children and run and play.
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  Right.
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  But I really want to make sure that, you know, I'm controlling kind of like
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  what's able to go into their minds.
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  So, yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Those are formative years indeed.
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  Okay.
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  So let's move on to like high school.
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  High school.
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  Yeah.
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  High school for us of course, we considered You know, the best
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  education that we thought you should have and your sister should have.
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  This is 2024.
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  What would I say?
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  Yeah, what would you say now?
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  So I think for high school, it's a very different time in the child's development.
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  You know, really, you think about high schoolers, so 14 to 18, especially those
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  latter years, 16 to 18, they're really, 18 is adults in the eyes of the law.
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  And so 16, they're able to operate cars.
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  You know, they're really coming into being people in their own right,
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  who are much more self-willed and have ideas and you can kind of
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  talk to them more like an adult.
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  And so I do think that's a time where really the child's
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  input becomes very important.
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  You know, hey, what do you want for your life?
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  What do you, what are you thinking about?
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  What are you concerned about?
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  And so I do think that is a time where you defer more to the child a bit.
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  I think that when it comes to high school, I think there are a few things
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  that you as the parent want to consider.
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  So I think the number one is really, you know, to what extent, how concerned
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  kind of are you about, you know, the, I guess I would say like the career
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  trajectory of your child, right?
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  Because then I think that's something that's an honest conversation that
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  everyone needs to have, right?
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  I think that some people will say, Hey, I am, I don't need my
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  child to have a college degree.
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  I think that there are jobs that my child can get without a college degree
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  and that's not necessarily something that's very important to me, right?
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  So, okay.
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  That's fine.
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  So then you will make your high school decisions accordingly.
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  Other people may say, I really want a college degree, but I don't necessarily,
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  I'm very open to the colleges that my child attends, or I want my child to
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  go to like a Christian college, right?
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  You need to make, you know, decisions accordingly.
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  And other people will say, well, I really want my child to kind
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  of go to certain institutions.
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  For me, my father really wanted me to go to Harvard, other kind of Ivy League
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  institutions that were very high in rank.
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  And so we made high school decisions accordingly.
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  And I think that, you know, that is a complicating factor because,
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  you know, the wishes of the child I do think are important.
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  And you, as the parent, do want to...
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  you are further along and you can kind of see what the child is going to probably
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  grow into and what they may desire, you know, but at the same time, you also
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  want to let them feel as if like they get to make some decisions and kind of
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  take risks because sometimes maybe you allow the child to go to a school for
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  a year and if they don't like it, you know, sometimes you allow them to change.
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  So I think it's just a time where you really need to kind of really
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  be all parents and that child needs to really be in close communication.
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  Now, of course, we're talking some of the segment you've made, because
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  we are immigrants, typically we come here to better our lives in
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  quotes, and so for us, bettering our lives is always educational wise.
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  So you mentioned the option of possibly not going to college,
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  that's very hard for my generation.
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  It is very, very hard, I think, for a lot of people.
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  Sorry, did I cut you off?
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  No, you didn't.
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  I think it's very, very hard for a lot of my mom's generation,
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  even I think my generation, right?
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  But I do think that right now in the United States, one of the big
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  things I think about a lot is student debt has just become such a drain
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  on a lot of young people's lives.
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  And I think for a lot of parents, you know, they want to be able to pay
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  for their children's education, but sometimes they're just not able to.
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  And so I do think one of the things that I'm increasingly concerned about
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  is this idea of going to college just for the sake of going to college.
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  And you go to a college where, you know, maybe the child's not that
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  motivated or they're studying something that doesn't have super high paying
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  opportunities when they graduate.
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  And yet, you know, they're taking on large amounts of debt that are really
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  going to limit them in their life.
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  And so I think that, you know, we as immigrants.
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  And, you know, first generation people first generation yeah, Americans or
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  Canadians Bretons, we really have to think, like, is it possible for my
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  child to, you know, not get a college degree and be, you know, successful?
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  And I mean, I've been continuing to see more and more people who have
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  opted for that route and they've had very successful, fulfilled lives.
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  And it makes me ask myself, well, you know, maybe that's something
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  I should consider for my children.
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  Food for thought,
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  food for thought.
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  But you know the world has changed, I mean there are a lot more career opportunities
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  now that really may not be I mean a college degree may not be necessary.
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  Ultimately it depends on the child, you know, and more and more I
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  see courses that are being geared towards the child's interests.
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  As opposed to in my generation it was like you've got to make a living with
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  this because remember we came here to better our lives and many of us
• 12:08
  had other responsibilities apart from y'all our children we also had extended
• 12:12
  families that we had to look into how to support and so we chose careers
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  sometimes that we didn't particularly like but because it was the most
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  worthwhile thing it was something that we knew that you know would be able to
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  help us support ourselves and others.
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  And I actually am 100% in agreement with that.
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  And I think that's quite compatible with my suggestion to, you know,
• 12:34
  consider not doing college.
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  Because I think really having a focus on and really instilling in your child
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  that you need to be able to put food on the table consistently and have
• 12:43
  stable employment, you know, and so if that means becoming an electrician
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  or becoming a plumber, right?
• 12:50
  Like maybe that is going to be more, give you more stable employment.
• 12:54
  Maybe that is going to lead you to being able to, you know, pay your
• 12:57
  bills more consistently or, and also potentially, maybe that's something
• 13:01
  you do for the first four years of your life, for the first four years.
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  You know, you save money, you get into a position where you feel like, you know,
• 13:08
  education is something I want to pursue.
• 13:10
  And then you pursue an advanced degree, right?
• 13:11
  I think, you know, even going into the military there's so many things that...
• 13:16
  there's so many options, I think, that need to be considered.
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  I simply think that, you know, really having a very sober view of If I
• 13:26
  do this path, there's going to be a lot of days that are challenging.
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  There's going to be a lot of days that are mundane.
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  And I'm going to need to be able to put food on the table at the end of the day.
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  And, you know, for a lot of people, that is college.
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  I mean, that's my personal belief.
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  But it's, it is something that everyone has to consider.
• 13:44
  You're right.
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  Right.
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  So there's something that we talked about boarding school.
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  Mm hmm.
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  Immigrant parents have a culture.
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  Well, I can talk from the Nigerian perspective.
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  When boarding school was culture, I didn't go to boarding school.
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  My sister did, but I didn't go to boarding school in Nigeria.
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  And my husband went to boarding school in Nigeria for a period of
• 14:06
  time, but he thought it was very wise for you to go to boarding school.
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  Mm
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  hmm.
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  What would you say about that?
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  What would I say?
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  Yeah.
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  So, I think, well, for me, I think boarding school was, for me, in some ways,
• 14:22
  very beneficial, I think, academically.
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  And I think to a certain extent, professionally.
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  So, for me, I think boarding school really taught me how
• 14:29
  to really study independently, which is a hallmark of college.
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  You know, you get to college and the professor teaches a lot, but really
• 14:36
  to excel, you need to be self-driven.
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  You need to be able to organize your time and to know that no
• 14:41
  one's looking over your shoulder.
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  And to, you know, prioritize going to certain lectures or
• 14:45
  recitation or finding the professor.
• 14:47
  You know, you need to be a self-starter when you get to college.
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  And you need to have those strong critical thinking, math and reading
• 14:54
  skills in order to be successful and in those environments.
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  And so I do think that for some children, you know, you do need to...
• 15:03
  that is something that's very important.
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  I think for me as a child who was a little sheltered, I think it was a good
• 15:07
  decision by my father to kind of get me exposed more into the world and to,
• 15:11
  and now I think I have skills that I really may not have had, I have really
• 15:15
  strong Spanish and Portuguese skills that came from, you know, boarding school.
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  I have, you know, really strong I've had been able to develop
• 15:24
  really, a really strong career.
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  But I would also say that I see a lot of friends who went to public school
• 15:30
  or went to days day private schools who have even stronger skills in those areas.
• 15:36
  And so I really think that it's very dependent on the child.
• 15:41
  And I simply think that Everyone needs to, again, have that conversation
• 15:47
  with themselves and be willing to take risks, you know, like maybe I
• 15:51
  had, I went to boarding school and I almost came back from boarding school.
• 15:54
  And so if I had come back, you know, it could have been a thing where
• 15:56
  I tried it and it wasn't for me.
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  And, you know, that's it.
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  Yeah.
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  Cause I know that's a question sometimes you ask, would my life have been different
• 16:05
  if I had not continued at boarding school or if I had just remained as a day student
• 16:12
  at the school that you attended, yeah.
• 16:15
  Yeah,
• 16:16
  I can't say.
• 16:17
  It can't say.
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  And so I think that ultimately, you know, for me, as again, as a Christian, I think
• 16:23
  that one of the benefits to having your child close at home is that they can
• 16:27
  really develop that relationship with you and, you know, grow spiritually.
• 16:30
  They can be connected to your church, and you know, that's a
• 16:34
  really big benefit for them before they kind of go off to college.
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  If they're moving far away, you know, They really have that time to really establish
• 16:41
  themselves as people with you living in your house before they make that jump
• 16:46
  and go, you know, for me, you know, I was studying in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia
• 16:51
  and my family was living in Charlotte.
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  So if I had gone from Charlotte to Philadelphia, I think that
• 16:55
  would have been a big jump.
• 16:57
  But I do think for me going from Charlotte to Boston to New Hampshire for three
• 17:01
  years and then going to Philadelphia, well, wow, that was even easier for me.
• 17:06
  It certainly was.
• 17:08
  I remember some of your friends that were homesick and you were like, homesick?
• 17:12
  There's nothing to be homesick about.
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  There's so much.
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  It was like, you were like, the food is great.
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  I'm in the city.
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  School is what I'm doing everything that I want it.
• 17:22
  So for you...
• 17:24
  it was so much better I think for me, you know, and I think that this is just a
• 17:28
  biblical or life principle Which is that when you've had adversity when, you know,
• 17:33
  more softer comfortable times come you really appreciate those comfortable times.
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  And so for me being able to be at school where there weren't so many rules
• 17:43
  and when the food was so much better.
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  I was wow.
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  I was so happy and and I don't think that was the case for other people,
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  but, you know, there were also a lot of other people who found it
• 17:53
  pretty easy to adjust, you know?
• 17:55
  So, I think it really, really does depend on your child and, you know,
• 17:59
  sometimes, you know, sometimes they say boys are different from girls.
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  I think that can be true, but I think, you know, ultimately, it's
• 18:05
  really the different individuals.
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  Different individuals.
• 18:09
  So to summarize it, what would you say now to immigrant parents My generation
• 18:14
  is, I mean, you guys are older, but someone who is immigrating from some
• 18:19
  other part of the world, coming to, in this case, probably the United States or
• 18:23
  anywhere else that is foreign to them.
• 18:25
  What would you say?
• 18:26
  What would be your number one?
• 18:28
  to them today, 2024.
• 18:30
  The one advice would really be to get out there and explore, you know,
• 18:34
  we have an expression in the States, Pound the Pavement which is get out
• 18:38
  there, talk to people, knock on doors.
• 18:40
  And so, you know especially as an immigrant who's coming into the
• 18:43
  States, you know, you want to collect a wide array of information so
• 18:47
  that you are your partner, you and your spouse, you and your trusted
• 18:50
  family members can really make that decision of what is best for my child.
• 18:54
  And I think being open to different perspectives, one of the things I think
• 18:57
  that we have to remember is that as immigrants, you know, we're still you
• 19:00
  know, maybe not we, but you know, we, even as an immigrant, you know, you
• 19:05
  have all the internet available to you and you're more than just, you know, a
• 19:09
  product of kind of like where you grew up.
• 19:11
  And so you're able to take on new forms of thought.
• 19:13
  You're able to kind of consider new perspectives.
• 19:16
  Even if, you know, you're kind of under the stress of how do
• 19:19
  I adapt into this new place?
• 19:21
  You know, you don't have to kind of take all of the mindsets
• 19:24
  from where you were coming from.
• 19:25
  And you also don't have to adapt all of the mindsets from where you're coming to.
• 19:28
  You can blend and you can take from other places.
• 19:31
  And so I think that really being okay with stepping outside of the box and say, you
• 19:36
  know, I know that my tradition says this.
• 19:38
  I know that the tradition here says this.
• 19:40
  However, I believe that X or Y different thing is going to be best for my child.
• 19:45
  I love that.
• 19:45
  And as you mentioned, I mean, the internet is so much more accessible
• 19:49
  now than it was 30 something years ago.
• 19:52
  So, I mean, there's so much information that groups you can
• 19:57
  become part of and now with AI that really is now gonna join with...
• 20:03
  Open
• 20:04
  AI.
• 20:05
  AI.
• 20:05
  Yeah.
• 20:06
  And so I mean
• 20:06
  the sky is the limit,
• 20:07
  yes.
• 20:08
  So bad
• 20:08
  the sky is the limit.
• 20:09
  You can find out from others who are in similar situations to you.
• 20:13
  So as Joshua said, the sky is the limit.
• 20:16
  The sky is the limit.
• 20:17
  So thank you so much everyone for tuning in today.
• 20:19
  It's always great to have different perspectives and sometimes this
• 20:24
  perspective is from a different gender and younger generation
• 20:28
  as has been the case today.
• 20:30
  Thank you, Joshua, for being a guest on your mom's show Chatting With The Experts.
• 20:35
  Thank you for having me.
• 20:38
  Before I leave, I always ask my...
• 20:39
  before you leave, I always ask my guests where they can be found online.
• 20:43
  Are you on LinkedIn?
• 20:44
  I am on LinkedIn.
• 20:45
  Yes.
• 20:46
  So Joshua Okonneh.
• 20:48
  On LinkedIn.
• 20:49
  Thank you.
• 20:49
  And for me, if you'd like to be a guest on the show, please reach
• 20:52
  out to me on my website, which is chattingwiththeexperts.com, you
• 20:57
  can also find me on Instagram.
• 21:00
  My handle there is at chat_experts_podcast.
• 21:06
  I'm on LinkedIn.
• 21:07
  How could I forget that?
• 21:08
  Just look for Paula Okonneh on LinkedIn.
• 21:10
  And I'm gradually and I need to stop saying gradually I am on Facebook.
• 21:15
  Just look for Paula Okonneh on Facebook.
• 21:18
  Thank you again and see you next week.
• 21:22
  On another episode of Chatting with the Experts.
• 21:26
  Bye!
• 21:27
  Bye!