Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 1 Episode 13 – Walter Neuenschwander | Plowboy to Preacher
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Вальтер ньюн Швандер, велком тоді Бетер Причин подкаст. Walter Neuenschwander: Hey Frank, glad to be here. Glad that you invited me on. Dr. Frank Weller: I've ⁓ been excited to have you on. We I I I I don't know if if B P two listeners know this, but you and I were on the same church staff ⁓ for a number of years and ⁓ well, how many years was it? Walter Neuenschwander: ⁓ so I started in twenty fifteen and you were here till what, twenty twenty-two, I think. And yeah, I and I honestly I I owe a great deal of what I'm doing now. The the credit for that goes to you for helping set me up for that. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. Well, I always tell people the it's easier to cook when you start with good ingredients. So Yeah, absolutely. Listen, ⁓ so you're at South Lancing Christian Church. Tell us a little bit about that congregation. Walter Neuenschwander: I appreciate that. Yeah, so we're a congregation. We're going on seventy-five years ⁓ of age, real coming up here real soon. And so I've got ⁓ I've had the chance to be here for almost twelve years now, ⁓ which is just a small portion of that. ⁓ we're Yeah, isn't it crazy? Yeah. So and I've been here so I started as our our young adults minister, ⁓ and I was in charge of what, fifteen to thirty year olds, and now I ⁓ Dr. Frank Weller: That's hard to believe. Twelve years. Wow. Yeah. Walter Neuenschwander: preach and I I share the responsibilities for preaching with Wally, our senior minister, but I preach the majority of the sermons on Sunday morning. ⁓ We're a church that's kind of in a almost a suburban context. We've got people driving in from a few miles around us and we're in South Lansing, ⁓ but it it's not like an urban environment. Dr. Frank Weller: And ⁓ about how large is the church? Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, we're a a few hundred people, so what, ⁓ bigger than average, but we're certainly not even a a a big church, I wouldn't say. Dr. Frank Weller: And you're you're in one gathering a week. You you were in two well, you were in one and then you were in two and you now you're back in one gathering a week. And it's pretty full when I'm when I'm there, it's it's the room's pretty full. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, we we've seen a lot of growth. ⁓ we always have new people on Sunday mornings. it it it's interesting because our church is is so it's just it's made up of of students and and people from Michigan State University. It's made up of professionals from here in town, ⁓ it's made up of of locals. ⁓ it doesn't seem like we're all in the same place at the same time. ⁓ and so even though we have a bunch of new people and and we are pretty full in one service, it doesn't feel like we're we're too full yet. And I don't know if you if you traced our our trend line from when you were here, Frank. I don't know that we're even ⁓ what we were quite before COVID because COVID really kicked us in the butt, you know. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, COVID really did that to everyone. And and I know that ⁓ I left in spring of twenty twenty two and we were nowhere near where we were pre COVID. And if you're like a lot of other churches, y you still aren't where you were pre COVID. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, I I wouldn't say we we are that at all. But but again, God keeps bringing new people and and man we've seen just a bunch of people commit to Jesus in this last spring. It's funny, I hadn't ever preached a a sermon on baptism, and then we were doing this series on the congregation's questions, and so I preached one sermon, not even a series, but a sermon on baptism. And since then, man, God has brought a bunch of people forward who who've committed and ⁓ and made that decision. Dr. Frank Weller: I love that. So I remember my first Sunday preaching there at South Lansing Christian was in ⁓ 2007. And I looked out that first Sunday, and ⁓ I saw the president of of the Bible college, I saw the literature professor at the Bible college, I saw the communications professor from the Bible college, and right down in the second row was Mrs. Doty. Sort of the Great Lakes Christian College matriarch. Her husband Brant Lee Doty was a legend here and w there's a building named after Dr. Doty. And she was in the f second row from front. And I remember thinking, Man, what have you gotten yourself into? Walter Neuenschwander: So that was your first Sunday? So Dr. Frank Weller: That was my first time, yeah. Walter Neuenschwander: You were gone for the first Sunday that I preached here. And I it it was rough because I got up there and I, you know, I kind of preached ⁓ a sermon I'd preached at my previous church lane, and ⁓ this was for whatever reason, a bunch of our staff members at on that Sunday were gone. So it was maybe me and and Wally. He was our worship minister at the time. And I just got up there and I had like the deer in the headlights. These people are my professors, they're professionals. Why am I speaking? And I think I rambled for like 47 minutes. minutes and I even remember when you came back, you would you tried to be so encouraging ⁓ because you listened to it but you were like, wow that was really something Walter. It was so one. ⁓ I remember. I remember. Dr. Frank Weller: I don't remember that. ⁓ wow. Well, I do know that I what when I left there, I so I was at South for 15 years, and when I left, I tried to be really deliberate about staying away for a season so that you could begin to grow into your own voice and Wally's leadership could take root. And I'll just say this I am incredibly proud of you and of the staff there and the work that you're doing. I think you guys are just a tremendous ⁓ group of leaders and you're doing a good job with that congregation. Walter Neuenschwander: Thanks, Frank. I really appreciate that. And and we really appreciate your influence here too. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, thanks. And we love it when we can get back there. As you know, we're on the road a lot. ⁓ I was at a church this Sunday here in town, and this was my first time preaching at a Pentecostal African American church. Let's just say the context is different. Man, that was wild. We had a wonderful day. It was it's one of the most hospitable congregations I've ever visited. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: ⁓ but man, you talk about call and response. That takes some getting used to. And that's not that's not really common in our context. You're not hearing Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah. ⁓ that's not south, no. No. I mean we got we have one elder who likes to throw in an amen every once in a while and it's so infrequent that it catches me off guard. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Well, this was a mm-hmm, mm-hmm preach it kind of church. ⁓ it was a blast. ⁓ we we had a wonderful time and I'm sure we'll look forward to going back there. ⁓ but so South Lansing Christian Church, you came as a staff person and then made a transition. So talk to us a little bit about that. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah. Yeah, sure. So I came in, like I said, I was a young adults minister. You hired me ⁓ to fill fill that role. And and then when you know things came up for you in Great Lakes Christian College, and you started thinking about what was gonna be next and you had encouraged me for a while to to develop in preaching and ⁓ and I'm really appreciative of the the time that we shared. We've shared a few series together. You allowed me, I think that the last year before you left, I I think I preached maybe once a month and then you threw me to the wolves with three sermons in November in a row. I remember that. ⁓ but what I think was ⁓ was was really profound about how that all worked out is those those young adults that I had and that I invested in and that I ministered to, they grew up, wouldn't you know it? And they became part Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Walter Neuenschwander: of our church and now they're serving in roles as deacons, as ministry leaders. ⁓ and so it just felt like a a real natural transition and a natural handoff to be able to continue to minister to these people who are no longer eighteen or nineteen, now they're thirty-five or some of them are getting closer to forty and ⁓ And and so there's just a really nice handoff there. Meanwhile, I think the transition worked pretty well too because having having having been here for seven or eight years, I had been able to get to know our senior saints and I'd been able to get to know our our leadership. And so there was trust. ⁓ so that was all good. I also I really think that the the elders here were perceptive when they realized Wally, our senior minister, who's been here for 25 years now, he had that relational capital, he had that that leader. leadership ability, ⁓ but his gifting and his joy is to lead worship. And so they didn't want to force him to do something that he wasn't passionate about. And they recognized in me and and I think you did too, ⁓ some growth in preaching and and so they allowed me to step in and and so we're we're kinda unique in churches our size where we have a a senior minister, but he's not our primary preaching minister on Sundays and then they they have me as the teaching and small groups minister. And so yeah, it's kind of a messy transition in a good way. It's just unusual, I guess. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, ⁓ I wanna I want to lean into that a little bit more, but before I do, I just want to say a word about our sponsors at Great Lakes Christian College. You know, Great Lakes Christian College has a new master's degree in practic practical theology where our students are face to face with passionate professors for real-time instruction and genuine community. Our students make friends, they ask questions, they get real-time live feedback from accessible professors who love God and who revere scripture. So you will get practical and you will go deep with the Master of Arts in Practical Theology at GLCC. For more details, go to glcc.edu. It was not your lifelong ambition to become a preacher, was it? Walter Neuenschwander: Not necessarily. Now I do feel like God had been calling me to ministry for a long time, but the call was was more of a general ministry call, not necessarily preaching. and if we want to get into that that journey Dr. Frank Weller: Well yeah, you resisted that call even, even a general call to ministry you you kind of put pushed against. Walter Neuenschwander: ⁓ absolutely. Yeah I I I grew up on a farm and I love farming. And I tell people often that I think one of the reasons God has me in such great churches is he knows that if he really put me in a difficult one, I'd run back to the farm in a heartbeat. And and so I felt the calling in high school. And ⁓ Mr. Fisher, one of the Great Lakes professors, ⁓ was my minister at the time and and he had a lot of influence on on me feeling God's call and just, you know, being trained and equipped for ministry. But I I I didn't really want to do it. I I wanted to be behind a tractor. I wanted to take care of cows. Like it might sound strange for some of your listeners out there, but but that's what I wanted to do. And so I ran from it. But because Mr. Fisher was our minister, our whole youth group just went to Great Lakes. It was just what we did. And and so we went in mass every year. We would go, the the next class would go, and they'd spend at least a year there because ⁓ Really Great Lakes i is is a place to find out who you are, you know, find out who you're becoming as a follower of Jesus. And I think that's that's even more important than finding out what you're going to do as a career. Is figuring out who you are. And so we all went to Great Lakes. And so I went to Great Lakes, but I was gonna go into business. And look, I know you guys have a lot of excellent programs at Great Lakes. When I went, business maybe not was maybe not one of the top programs at Great Lakes at that time, but it was what I wanted to do just to get a business degree and come back to the farm. And so I was at Great Lakes for two years, running from God the whole time. As I saw my friends stepping up, you know, my friend Jordan was going out and preaching. This conviction that I needed to do ministry, but I wasn't willing to do so. And and I eventually found myself at Michigan State University in horticulture. I was studying for a bachelor's in horticulture. My wife and I, we I got married to a girl who was going to Great Lakes and we were living at Great Lakes. I was going to Michigan State, but the conviction was so strong that I was feeling from God that I I eventually just decided I don't believe in God anymore at all. Like I'm not gonna do what he wants me to do. And it's kinda like one of those almost a Jonah moment. Like God tells me to go this way and I'm going this way and nobody can tell me different. Dr. Frank Weller: Wow. Yeah. Walter Neuenschwander: And even s still in the midst of all that, we were living at Grey Lakes, we were serving at Duplin Church of Christ, ⁓ we were serving with a youth group, and it was about six months there where I just was drifting. And I remember serving as a ⁓ non-believer at the youth group, and I was at a retreat with Jamie ⁓ for the youth group, and we were leading worship, and ⁓ I was playing the keys, and I just saw I looked around and I saw these guys my age who were. to go and follow God's call and go into ministry. And it was at that point that that I responded, you know, and it was this moment of of just feeling a weight being lifted as I was going I I was like, all right, God, I don't know what this looks like. I guess I'm not gonna go take over the family farm. But take me and and and so from that point forward Jamie and I enrolled in seminary at Lincoln Christian University and I served at a church for a number of years in ⁓ in central Illinois and then ended up here at South and again preaching wasn't my primary focus. I don't know that my calling was in the context of preaching. It was in the context of general ministry. Just feeling like I need to do, I need to share the gospel in Jesus' name. I don't know that that needs to be from a pulpit ⁓ but then through your leadership through Through God developing me here, through our our elders investing in me, this is where I find myself today. Dr. Frank Weller: What's been the biggest difference or biggest change for you ⁓ as making that transition from young adults minister and small group minister to now the pretty much about what, two thirds of the preaching is what you do. What what's been the biggest transition for you? Walter Neuenschwander: ⁓ okay, there there's the the one that maybe ⁓ the minister audience of this podcast won't like. I work way fewer hours now than I worked as a youth minister. I I kid you not. Like I I Dr. Frank Weller: Is that right? Walter Neuenschwander: Our culture at South was we want to be here and we wanna serve as part of the team. And so we're in the office Monday through Thursday, a few hours, and we have our meetings and all of that. But then additionally, I I was I was leading Monday night youth group and ⁓ there was either a Sunday night or sometimes a Thursday night. ⁓ there's young adults group and my wife and I were leading another small group and then there were the occasional elders' meetings, and then there's just being available and in the life of your students and Man, I was I was I was burning the candle at both ends and almost immediately when I started preaching, it's not that I'm slacking off, but I'm much more available for my family now. My my life, my work home work life balance is much better. So that that's one thing. you senior ministers out there, don't discount the amount of effort that your youth ministers are putting in, because man, some of them are really are are are just working hard. Poor Dr. Frank Weller: Well the rhythm and the cadence is really different from both of those jobs, isn't it? Walter Neuenschwander: It is, it is. And and I think it might have it not it might it was God's timing for myself, for my kids, for my family that I moved into this role because I can go to my daughter's band concerts now and I can be the dad who ⁓ is available to pick up somebody from, you know, ⁓ Play practice or whatever. So that's been really good. So that that's one thing. I would say another maybe less ⁓ cynical ⁓ change here has been just in the connection I feel with the congregation. You know, before I had I had ⁓ a strong connection with our young adults and with our our students, but even with the parents of students, there was still that divide, and now just preaching and investing in their lives and showing up for hospital visits and and just being more ⁓ adults focused, I think I I I have a broader, deeper relationship with the entire congregation, not just a subset of the congregation. So Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and you mentioned that it is the the South staff structure is unusual. And I think you're you're right. I don't know really too many churches where the the worship primary worship leader is the lead minister. And ⁓ in your role as a teaching minister, teaching pastor Look, oftentimes churches the size of yours, the the the lead minister, the primary teaching pastor are one and the same. And so that that that there's a strong leadership component to preaching. ⁓ but it's it's a little bit different because Wally is the lead is the lead minister. And by the way, for our BP two ⁓ listeners, yeah, there is a Wally and a Walter at South Lensing Christian Church. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah. It's confusing. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah yeah, it's confusing. ⁓ so they they they keep they've kept those name distinctions, Wally and Walter. And and with but with Wally as the lead minister and you as the primary teaching minister, I mean how does that work? Because in in some ways, ⁓ I would imagine there are people who will come on a Sunday or two and think that that you're the lead guy there and and and you're just not. So how does that work? Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah. ⁓ in in a number of ways. ⁓ number one I would say of any staff member I've ever worked with, any leader, Wally is the least territorial and he he just loves his staff and ⁓ he doesn't have any any he doesn't have any pride, right? There's no ego there that ⁓ that for him feels like he needs to be seen. With that said, for the people who've been here a long time, Wally's been here a long time and he has that voice. he'll often introduce our services, he leads worship ⁓ at least two, sometimes three or four. Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Walter Neuenschwander: weeks a month and so he's up there he's visible he's always out in the lobby at the end of service greeting our people like so there's that that visibility component he does also preach about once a month and so that gives him that voice as well ⁓ a lot of the the communication that comes from our our church whether that's an email or a video that we're sending out ⁓ is done by Wally and so that there is that balance there ⁓ But again, I it's unusual and we're kind of figuring it out. I think Wally i i he loves to partner with people and and so that also makes it work really well that we can partner. And he's got a lot of trust. And I think even when you were here, Frank, our culture of our church staff is a culture of trust, not a culture of suspicion. And and and so y you trusted us to, hey, this is your this is what you're tasked with, this is your ministry, go do it, and then let's talk about it. If there's a problem, if there's some hurdle that you need to jump over and you're not sure how to do it, let's figure it out together. And Wally's continued on that tradition of a of leading a culture of tr of trust on our church staff. Dr. Frank Weller: One of the things I think that Wally does really well, and and I think it's a reflection of the whole chur of the church, South Lansing Christian they develop younger leaders. I I know we've had a number of students every year from Great Lakes Christian College that end up doing internships at South Lance and Christian, and particularly ⁓ in in the area of worship, worship leading. ⁓ talk to me about just the investment that South makes in emerging leaders and why that's so important to you as a church. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, there's the formal and the informal. The the informal is is just again Wally, he out of the goodness of his heart just takes out any any young adults who are here. So there's always a group of 10 or 15 who are here on a Sunday morning, and he buys them all lunch after church. And that has been a huge investment. Of course, we have ⁓ we have a young adults minister who also invests in them. On the more formal side, we we have a few different internship tracks here. We have just a general internship internship that that a student from Great Lakes can come over and and get that ministry experience that's required for their degree. We actually have an intern starting tomorrow here that I'm pretty excited about. ⁓ but beyond that, one of the things that we had noticed when you were here with me, Frank, was that ⁓ some of the scholarships that Great Lakes offers, for better or for worse, worked really well for out-of-town students, but maybe not as well for in-town students. And we also noticed that our church wasn't sending as many students to Great Lakes as we wanted to. And so you and I, and I'd say it was like ⁓ 80% you and 20% me, developed this ⁓ the South Lansing Christian Church Fellowship. And this is a four-year program. Where our church agrees to sponsor a student to Great Lakes. We will pay for their tuition and ⁓ and we expect them to come and serve here then 15, 20 hours a week. ⁓ we we match them up with a staff mentor, and so each year they get a different staff mentor. They start with Eric, our young adults minister. ⁓ they jump from there to Greta, our children's minister. ⁓ they work with Wally for a year. ⁓ recent fellow who just finished the program ⁓ worked with Abba Cook, our Creative Arts and Serve Minister. And so our our hope is that through this fellowship, students will get this on the ground training that that will then match up with their education at Great Lakes. It's intended to be a four-year program. Again, we pay for all of the tuition costs. We do that in partnership with Great Lakes, which offers some great ⁓ scholarships to our students as well. ⁓ But that is that's our formal way of investing in the next generation. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and I love that. I I've I was talking to a church in Illinois recently, and they've been trying unsuccessfully now for a year and a half to hire a youth minister. And they said, boy, who do you have that you can send us? And my response is just that the the really sharp youth ministry candidates that are coming out of our college, they're all locked up by their junior year, their senior year. They know what they're going to do, they know where they're going. And so I shared with this church the idea of the SLCC Fellowship and said, you know what? I've got a guy who ⁓ is outstanding, but he's he's struggling to figure out how he's gonna pay for his junior and senior year. Why don't you bring him on at your church this summer and he can work with you all this summer and then he can come one weekend a month in ⁓ during the school year? And that works out. You you kind of figure out when when's fall break? When's Christmas break? When's midwinter break? And so he's able to go there about once a month, one weekend a month. And they're doing essentially what South does, which is they provide his for his tuition, and then they provide a stipend on the weekends that he's in Illinois. And they're gonna get someone who has ⁓ a four-year college degree from GLCC, but also has some great on-the-ground practical experience that knows the congregation by the they're they're not just someone Graduating and showing up, they're gonna know the church, know who they are, ⁓ know their volunteers, know their students. And I I think that's a model that more churches can follow. For churches that are within driving distance of a Christian college, to bless a student that way, like South is doing, I think is is tremendously beneficial for all parties involved. Walter Neuenschwander: Absolutely. And and you know, there's that stereotype of the kid who goes to Bible college and never goes to church for four years and then graduates and and wants to get a a job at a church. I can say without a doubt that Hannah, our our most recent fellow graduate, is well prepared for ministry. She's got the knowledge from Great Lakes. She's got the practical ministry experience and she's ready to go. And we are going to be sad to lose her when church comes and snatches her up. But we couldn't be more excited for her. Dr. Frank Weller: Right. Well, when we come back, I want to talk about what it was like to sit at the feet of Ron Fisher growing up. And ⁓ but before we do, listen, I want to pause and say a word from our sponsors at Great Lakes Christian College. Look, your week is full. Sermons, staff meetings, visits with your people. GLCC gets it. And that's why our new master's degree in practical theology from ⁓ rather offers convenience without sacrificing community. You get real instructional support from professors who are actually Walter Neuenschwander: Well Dr. Frank Weller: Engaged actively in the pastorate. And what's ⁓ more, that there's more face-to-face and less busy work so you can grow without burning out. It's a new degree for a new day in theological education. It's built for leaders who want depth and not fluff. You can keep serving where you are while earning a degree that serves you, and you can get more details at glcc.edu. Probably a lot, Walter, a lot of our better ⁓ preaching podcast listeners ⁓ aren't familiar with Ron Fisher, ⁓ but He's a legend here in mid-Michigan and certain well, maybe even really a tri-state area. ⁓ was ⁓ a longtime minister at at the church in Coldwater, Michigan, where you attended, and a longtime professor here at GLCC. ⁓ in fact, ⁓ when he retired, he was gifted a chair. And ⁓ when he passed away a few years ago, his family donated that chair back to the college, and it sits in my office as a reminder of of Mr. Fisher and ⁓ his impact on this institution. Walter Neuenschwander: ⁓ that's why. Dr. Frank Weller: ⁓ when w what's it like as you reflect on his preaching and how he preached and and does that have any impact on you and your approach to preaching? Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, so I was actually thinking about this the other night. What what set apart Mr. Fisher's preaching in my mind? And again, I was in middle school when he was my my minister, and and so I'm not sure I I fully appreciated what I had. But if I had to point out one thing about Mr. Fisher, it would have been that he knew what was happening in our world, in our country right now, and he always had ⁓ a kingdom-minded, godly perspective on that. He was the kind of preacher who, you know, preached with one hand on a Bible and one hand on the newspaper. He he could say, All right, this morning this happened in in ⁓ in our country and ⁓ and Here's how if you're a Christian you should be paying attention ⁓ and you should be an informed citizen ⁓ to glorify to glorify God and make the name of Jesus great. ⁓ And so yeah, that that to me is is the primary thing I remember. He wa he was very pastoral, but he he also he was kind of doing the weekend ⁓ weekend ministry thing for our church. And that's one of those things that I think is significant about the ministry of Great Lakes and your professors over there. ⁓ it it's that your professors are often doing ⁓ doing fill in ⁓ ministry or doing weekend ministry or or or they're investing in congregations in the area in ways that ⁓ are just profound ⁓ for the development of those congregations, for the students like me, middle school Walter, growing up under Mr. Fisher, and just getting that perspective. So I really appreciate what Great Lakes has done and continues to do in that way. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, we're really intentional about that. In fact, ⁓ the church I was at yesterday is the church that's pastored by our business professor. So our our business professor has a doctorate of ministry degree and preaches every week, leads Bible study on Wednesday night. Our communication professor also has his D-min, in addition to advanced training in in interpersonal organizational communication. So he's he's preaching every week. Walter Neuenschwander: ⁓ yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: And you just go down the line. We we want our professors to be practitioners because oftentimes there just seems to be a disconnect between the academy and the church. And we think it's really important that that our professors are actively engaged in ministry week in and week out. So I I appreciate you saying that. ⁓ Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, so was was great for me, but I only had him as a minister. You had him a as a professor, right? Dr. Frank Weller: Yes, and and he was incredibly intimidating. He he would do something called recitation, which essentially you had a reading assignment and they were always big chunks of of really heavy books. And you would have a reading assignment and then he would call upon a student to recite that day. You never knew when it was going to be your turn. And every question that he had would be directed at you, and you were expected to answer based on the the text. Walter Neuenschwander: Okay. ⁓ Okay. Dr. Frank Weller: based on the reading for that day. So yeah, it was it was an intimidating class. Walter Neuenschwander: I'm glad that college got easy by the time I got there. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, listen, we don't have much time. Believe me to that half an hour goes really fast. But I guess one of the things I'd ask you, Walter, is you've been doing this now, you've been preaching for three, four years. ⁓ what's what's a bit of preaching advice that you would offer to someone who is kind of where you were three, four years ago? That that they're not preaching week in and week out yet, but it's on the horizon for them at some point. Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: What's a bit of advice that you would offer to that individual? Walter Neuenschwander: Yeah, I I think trust and ⁓ trust a routine. Like for me it's it's about the routine. If I if I get in a hurry, if I if I am feeling a lot of pressure ⁓ about a sermon coming up, I have a hard time writing it, right? But even when you and I were sharing the year, that one year where I preached once a month for a year, ⁓ we had a routine, you had the year planned out. I was able to start writing and thinking about things weeks in advance. ⁓ and and that routine really lifts off the pressure. And so I guess that that would be my advice is is find a way to not be in a hurry, find a way to not feel ⁓ feel that anxiety or that pressure, because God can use pressure for sure and and good things happen ⁓ when God works in that way. But in my own personal experience, I have a lot a lot better time writing and a lot ⁓ better results when I'm not feeling under the gun. Dr. Frank Weller: Great. And in our next episode, we're going to spend some time, you and I, talking about that routine and what that looks like and unpack that for our listeners. But in the meantime, I want to thank you, Walter Neuwenschwander, and I want to thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. And I want to thank you, our BP2 community, for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching podcast. ⁓ join us for the next episode where we're going to have another insightful conversation with Neuenschwander because ⁓ better preaching makes a bigger impact.