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The Gordie Howe International bridge: Memories from the trenches · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:14
  Jeff Cranson: As you know by now, the Greyhoe International Bridge linking Detroit with Windsor, Ontario, open to traffic on July 27th.
• 0:26
  Jeff Cranson: I wanted to catch up with a couple of the people involved in this project from some of its earliest days.
• 0:33
  Jeff Cranson: So first I spoke with Kirk Steidel, who was the director of the Michigan Department of Transportation from 2006 until 2018, and was there when then Governor Rick Snyder was able to negotiate with the Canadian government and the U.S.
• 0:48
  Jeff Cranson: federal government for an arrangement that would allow for a crossing agreement and to build the long-awaited bridge.
• 0:56
  Jeff Cranson: He had some really interesting things to say about what went on in those negotiations and what went on in the earliest days of selecting a location and everything that's involved in that and the National Environmental Protection Act regulations that govern that sort of building and that sort of location planning.
• 1:15
  Jeff Cranson: And I also talked to Mohammed El Ghrabi, who was the longtime project manager for MDAT, overseeing it, mostly building relationships in the community, really on both sides of the border.
• 1:26
  Jeff Cranson: But the incredible trust that he was able to establish and the rapport with the people in the neighborhood who naturally had a lot of anxiety about being displaced for the bridge and what the bridge was going to mean to their lives going forward.
• 1:40
  Jeff Cranson: Mohammed's incredible touch with people and patience and just genuine passion both for the project and for the people came through loud and clear from the times that I was involved in it.
• 1:53
  Jeff Cranson: And I was always very impressed, and it was really good to catch up with him and let him talk about that and remind us of everything that went into it.
• 2:01
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversations.
• 2:04
  Jeff Cranson: So once again, I'm talking first with Kirk Steidel, who was the director of the Michigan Department of Transportation for 12 years and was highly involved in things as this project finally got off the drawing board and began to move forward.
• 2:19
  Jeff Cranson: Kirk, thank you for taking time to talk about this.
• 2:22
  Jeff Cranson: I know how important it is to you.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Jeff.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to be on with you, and it's a great day to see traffic going across this wonderful bridge.
• 2:30
  Jeff Cranson: So let's talk about your earliest memories.
• 2:32
  Jeff Cranson: You were um you you became director of the department in 2006.
• 2:36
  Jeff Cranson: Is that is that right?
• 2:37
  Jeff Cranson: That's my memory.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's right.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And yep, for uh three years before I was the chief deputy.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I was involved when it started.
• 2:44
  Jeff Cranson: You were working on it even then, yeah.
• 2:46
  Jeff Cranson: So um think think about when you when this first got on your radar, and they were even so far as just looking for sites, even if you could ever get a governor and a legislature to go along with the project, um the the first thing was trying to identify where it should go, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that the whole environmental process starts with as many locations as possible and just a little bit of analysis.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then as you start eliminating some of those alternatives, then you you do deeper analysis, right?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So so I think we started with 38 or 40 different possible alternatives all up and down the river, uh from Gross Point all the way way, way south um to the mouth of the river.
• 3:35
  Jeff Cranson: So when you think back about that and and getting to that point, um were you thinking then?
• 3:42
  Jeff Cranson: I I guess if if somebody had asked you then, let's say we can agree on this now, we can get NEPA signed off on, we can get legislative approval, how long would you have thought it would take in in your wildest dreams?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if everybody was on board, uh after we if we'd have gotten NEPA done, say in two years, everybody would have said that was that's one of the fastest ever, right?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just say we could get done in two years, everybody agreed, and then you, you know, everybody agrees to pay their share, you get to a concession contract.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're still talking four years to build it, anyways.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I think had we not had COVID in the middle, this probably would have sped up the completion.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you know, think about 2004 or five or six, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you came up with uh an answer, maybe by 2010, 2012, the bridge is open.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Four, what is that, 14 years before it was open?
• 4:39
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 4:39
  Jeff Cranson: So I mean, think about Chad Living good at the Detroit News actually did some very, very good reporting on this.
• 4:45
  Jeff Cranson: And one of the observations he made was that when you did agree on a site, it was the narrowest spot in the river, which makes a lot of sense.
• 4:52
  Jeff Cranson: And that was part of why the Coast Guard um was willing to permit it, because you didn't need any kind of uh support in the river itself.
• 5:01
  Jeff Cranson: And that that that was that was a huge moment, uh, one of many huge moments, right?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that that was that was huge.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: And if you fast forward into construction, now you're constructing on dry land instead of constructing in the river.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: So aside from all the Coast Guard regulations and the potential issues of some future ship hitting it, you you're you're building it on dry land.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: So just the construction of it becomes much easier.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, if you're in the river, you know, the towers don't have to be as tall, maybe the you know the bridge isn't as big, but so many, you know, we're so fortunate that that was the spot that was picked uh because of, you know, like the the Maryland, uh, the Key Bridge uh that got hit by a by a freight.
• 5:44
  Jeff Cranson: That's a really good example.
• 5:46
  Jeff Cranson: So this wasn't really on my radar sitting in my perch uh on a city desk in in Grand Rapids until uh the state of the state address that Governor Snyder delivered in 2011.
• 5:58
  Jeff Cranson: Um it wasn't really even an issue in that campaign that year.
• 6:02
  Jeff Cranson: And so when he came along and said, kind of surprised us all, I think you knew, but you were one of a handful of people that knew he was going to say that, that he found a way to go forward with the bridge.
• 6:12
  Jeff Cranson: Um, I mean, between that and taking the high-speed rail money, the Aura money, you know, he he he did some big things.
• 6:18
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, those were things that really contributed in my decision to take a job at the department.
• 6:23
  Jeff Cranson: I was really impressed that he had the the forward thinking to do that.
• 6:27
  Jeff Cranson: Um, talk about what went into that decision and what your talks were with him about, you know, what what helped get him around, I guess.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, first of all, Governor Snyder is an exceptional, exceptional person, right?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, so smart, uh, you know, so experienced in so many different ways.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: When he and I had a conversation and he said, hey, what should I think about uh this bridge?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and he legitimately was asking, help me think through this, right?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh I said, you know, I can fill your head full of all the reasons.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: I said, but I think you should just go talk to the Canadians.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Just go talk to the Canadians and get their thoughts.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: I said, and then let's circle back.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So before I even said, hey, here's the reasons, you know, could give them all of the, you know, the process we've been through and the rest, he had, he had followed it, right?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: It just wasn't one of those things that he was gonna, you know, raise his hand and say, I think we should do this or this.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: He he, you know, from a very intelligent perspective, said, I need to learn more, right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: So he he met with the Canadians.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was fortunate enough to be in that meeting.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then I just sat and I just took notes.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't necessarily participating, uh, and you know, he came came to his own conclusion.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now, at the same time, uh, I think it was between, say, Christmas and New Year's, right, as that was happening, as he's trying to make his decision.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think uh we, meaning, meaning MDOT, uh, we put probably 400 pages of documents in front of him of the history, where we'd been, the what was the purpose for this, uh, what was the need, how were the, how was all of this coming together, uh, of which he really, really absorbed, uh, plus his meeting with the Canadians, plus his meeting with Secretary Lahood, uh, and then came to that decision uh, you know, in mid-January before the first state of the state address that you talked about, and said, hey, this is a real estate deal, uh, and and we need to do this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you know, I provided all the factual background, but at the same time, I was also being very careful to not sell, right?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because I said, if if this is going to be successful, he needs to, he needs to say yes, uh, because this is a really good deal, not because you know, I influenced them in one way or another.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, he he came to the the right conclusion that said the Gordy Howe Bridge or the NITSI at the time uh was the best thing for Michigan's future.
• 8:58
  Jeff Cranson: And Governor Granholm was on board and was supportive and um you know, allowed, gave you lots of rope, you and MDAT to work on it.
• 9:07
  Jeff Cranson: But this was at a time of you know the the super recession that Michigan saw uh in those years versus the rest of the country.
• 9:14
  Jeff Cranson: Um and you know, transportation was already underfunded in Michigan, has been for a long time.
• 9:20
  Jeff Cranson: So it was really kind of a pipe dream in those days.
• 9:22
  Jeff Cranson: It wasn't that she didn't want to do it, she had a uh less than supportive legislature and a lack of funding.
• 9:28
  Jeff Cranson: So you found a way, you and the governor, Governor Snyder found a way, uh, a way around both those things.
• 9:35
  Jeff Cranson: And from then on, you know, once that crossing agreement was signed, talk about that moment when uh when they unveiled the the poster and announced that it was gonna be named for Gordy Howe.
• 9:46
  Jeff Cranson: And just, you know, it was a no-brainer.
• 9:47
  Jeff Cranson: I remember thinking to myself, why didn't I think of that?
• 9:50
  Jeff Cranson: That's like an obvious name.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny you say that, Jeff.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: I thought the same thing.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a perfect name because because you know, who's gonna take on Gordy Howe?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And how are you gonna call it bad names?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's Gordy Howe.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Jesus, you know, just you look at the design of the bridge and it just screams hockey sticks, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and uh, you know, I had the great fortune of being able to present a Lifetime Achievement Award to Gordie Howe from the Michigan Council on Physical Fitness.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and it was really one of the last times that Gordy Howe was seen uh alive uh in person.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that that was just so that was if I think about some of the amazing things that I got to do as director candidly, that's right at the top.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's just uh was an amazing, amazing day to meet Gordy Howe uh and then to present them with this picture of the winged wheel and a number nine on it with this bridge in the background, because the Canadians said, Well, we're not officially calling it that yet.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a little bit of consternation about that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, look, I'm just giving him a picture, recognizing the great work that he did.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: He just happens to have a bridge behind him.
• 11:01
  Jeff Cranson: That's funny.
• 11:02
  Jeff Cranson: I don't know if you ever told me that story.
• 11:04
  Jeff Cranson: I think um what sticks with me about that period of time is that you know, Gordy was known elbows up, uh, not a patient hockey player, but what it took to build this bridge required tremendous patience from the Canadians.
• 11:16
  Jeff Cranson: Chad touched on that in his reporting.
• 11:18
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, no more than than no more so than Roy Norton, who was then the counsel general, who I was with him and others at several of the presentations he gave around the state.
• 11:29
  Jeff Cranson: There were so many supportive business groups, yet it was still a hard sell with so many legislators that always struck me as odd.
• 11:36
  Jeff Cranson: But uh, you know, the the Detroit Chamber, the Grand Rapids Chamber, the Right Place Economic Development Group, um, strongly supportive, uh, Traver City business leaders.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you know, Jeff, one of the one of the first states, because because I was talking to Midwest states saying, hey, we need to get support of this.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one of the first states that came out the strongest and and most supportive was Kentucky.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting, not Ohio, but Kentucky.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Kentucky.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Mike Hancock, who was then uh secretary of the transportation um cabinet in in Kentucky, he got it real quick.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: He said, look, that bridge is used to take uh Kentucky bourbon uh and Corvettes.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, our two biggest exports go across that crossing.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: And they signed on before anybody else did.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Ohio was right behind it, but but Kentucky was they were they were first.
• 12:31
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I I I guess I remember that now that you you told me that, but I I do remember that uh Ohio, because I've been contacted over the years by people, obviously with the I-75 corridor, huge business interest in it.
• 12:43
  Jeff Cranson: But really, um states, I mean, all of the country, I at least anything south or west of Michigan had had a vital interest in it, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, just recently I was doing some work in Ohio about transportation economic development, and one of the things that was brought up through, you know, from the groups in Ohio was the opportunities uh that the new Gordy Howe Bridge was going to provide, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I was there kind of helping and guiding and coaching them how they tied these things together.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and you know, the Northwest Ohio people saw huge connections and just waiting for that connection to open.
• 13:24
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I mean, with the agri interests in the Toledo area, I mean, obviously, that that makes a lot of sense.
• 13:29
  Jeff Cranson: So you think back to your your good memories and things that that we talked about, um, going back to the very beginning with Governor Snyder when you guys made that trip to DC, um, and Chad touched on this in his reporting too, but what was the light bulb moment when you thought we could ask the Federal Highway Administration to actually count Canada's uh contributions to this, Canada's financing of the bridge, uh, toward MDOT's federal match?
• 13:57
  Jeff Cranson: That that must have been like uh like wow.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: It you know, there was lots of conversations about that time about toll credits because we generate toll credits from the Mackinac Bridge, the Blue Water Bridge, and the Ambassador Bridge, who was reluctant to give us their investment uh numbers, but uh but they did.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we said, well, wait, we're about ready to do this really big bridge.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's gonna be a lot of investment here.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: All of this would qualify as as toll credits as well.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that was we knew that would happen, but it would be multiple years later before you could you know get all the accounting correctly.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I remember having a conversation with the then deputy secretary John Procari and said, Hey, what if we counted this in real time?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and John Procari was a you know a very innovative guy as well, and a longtime friend said, that's interesting.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: He's gonna get there anyways.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: So he ended up taking that to Secretary Lahood.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: I took that to Secretary or to uh Governor Snyder, and then the conversation continued, you know.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: So uh at the policy level, they said, yeah, let's see if we can make this happen, right?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then, you know, filter down through the Federal Highway Administration uh in Michigan, uh, and then uh within MDOT, within the governor's office, and and wow, we made it happen.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course, this logistics of how do you make that happen?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: And how real time is real time?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Is it every week?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is it every month?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is it once a year?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of logistics that the finance people had to then figure out.
• 15:35
  Jeff Cranson: But that was also the beginning of a very important relationship because Ray Lahood, who was President Obama's Secretary of Transportation, um, came to Michigan a lot in those days, both um as part of those talks and because of the high-speed rail money.
• 15:48
  Jeff Cranson: And I remember you pointed out he got to know Governor Snyder so well that Governor Snyder referred to him as Ray.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and Governor Snyder was Rick.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was Rick and Ray.
• 15:58
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Jeff Cranson: That's funny.
• 16:00
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 16:00
  Jeff Cranson: So we didn't get to have a big celebration like we had hoped.
• 16:04
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, in the end, that history isn't going to really matter.
• 16:06
  Jeff Cranson: The fact is that it is, it's built, it's a great testament to the two countries working together.
• 16:10
  Jeff Cranson: Um, I'm actually looking forward to riding my bike across.
• 16:13
  Jeff Cranson: I haven't been able to do that yet.
• 16:14
  Jeff Cranson: I'm sure you would enjoy doing that too as a cyclist.
• 16:17
  Jeff Cranson: So, um, what else do you want people to know about this and how it came together?
• 16:22
  Jeff Cranson: And we should also say that dating back to Governor Granthome, we talked about, and then what Governor Snyder did, and Governor Whitmer stuck with it, gave it full-throated support all the way through, provided the resources and the attention that it needed.
• 16:34
  Jeff Cranson: Um, and oftentimes these kinds of big infrastructure projects span several administrations, so that's not that unusual, really.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as I think about that, big infrastructure projects, really to your last point, they take time.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the projects like this or like the SULOCs are not something that you get done within one administration.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: And in and it doesn't mean that you don't do them, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: You do them for the good of the state, of the people, the motorist, or whoever's using it, right?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: You so you spend that time.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, think about Governor Grant Home.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: She took a chunk of the of the department's administration and said, I want you to advance this project, knowing that there was no way, no way.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: We just think about that timeline we talked in the beginning.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: There was no way that she was going to walk across the completed bridge in in her term, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: But you have to walk it far enough so that the next person can pick it up and carry it again.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I would have loved to have been able to see, you know, have the thing finished by the time Governor Snyder was done, but we made it through.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and you know, at least Governor Whitner Whitmer got to be able to see it completed.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as I I think about those big projects, and I think specifically about this one, there's there's just a handful of people and it and those people made a single decision at one point in their their life that enabled this to happen, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think about um Secretary Um Lahood, I think about Secretary Peters, who was the predecessor under uh under George Bush that that pushed to get the record of decision signed.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think about the you know three governors we talked about, I think about the finance minister in Canada that said, yeah, we'll we'll we'll come up with this funding, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's a handful of people, probably less than 10, that without them making that decision, we are not having this conversation.
• 18:38
  Jeff Cranson: You know, that's uh another way of saying, you know, the uh the old quote about uh society is made better by people who plant trees in whose shade they'll never sit, right?
• 18:47
  Jeff Cranson: That's it exactly.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's it, exactly.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Jeff, I think so much um about the times when we were going through the design phase or the environmental phase, and people would say, Well, why do you really need or more importantly, I had senior administration people that would say, Well, large discussion.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what keeps you up at night?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I will tell you candidly, I was worried about that crossing having something happen.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's no redundancy, right?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden that crossing is out, and candidly, the shape of Southeast Michigan changes forever with absolutely nothing anybody can do.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Think about the Key Bridge and all the money people are throwing, it's still not open, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's still it's still not even under construction.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's been two years.
• 19:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:41
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 19:42
  Jeff Cranson: Well, I'm I mean, do you feel comfortable saying?
• 19:44
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, you did a lot in 12 years as director, really.
• 19:47
  Jeff Cranson: That's the the longest tenure of anybody in in the modern era um running the Department of Transportation in Michigan.
• 19:54
  Jeff Cranson: And uh you were such a pioneer when it came to intelligent transportation systems and connected and autonomous vehicles, um, not to mention asset management and performance measures and so many things.
• 20:05
  Jeff Cranson: But really, does anything top this for you know your your fondest achievement?
• 20:10
  Jeff Cranson: None.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, knowing that that um you know, going into the next hundred years, this this crossing uh and the trade that goes across it uh will be solid.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it will attract, just like we were talking about before from Ohio, it will attract business, it'll attract trade.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um that is, if I think about the legacy piece, yeah, that's it.
• 20:33
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 20:34
  Jeff Cranson: Well, thanks, Kirk.
• 20:35
  Jeff Cranson: Thanks for taking time to talk about it.
• 20:36
  Jeff Cranson: I appreciate it.
• 20:37
  Jeff Cranson: I know you could talk forever given uh your memories and everything that was involved.
• 20:42
  Jeff Cranson: I'll be back in a minute to talk with Mohammed Al-Gharaabi, who was the longtime project manager.
• 20:47
  Jeff Cranson: And uh he and I are going to talk more about some of the relationship building that went on, which uh can't be overstated the importance of that and getting that project going forward.
• 20:57
  Jeff Cranson: So thanks again.
• 20:58
  Jeff Cranson: Thanks, Jeff.
• 21:00
  Jeff Cranson: Stay with us, we'll have more on the other side of this important message.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Roundabouts keep traffic moving, but they work best when everyone follows the same simple rules.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Slow down as you approach, yield to traffic already in the roundabout, and don't stop once you're inside unless it's necessary.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Use your turn signal as you exit so others know your plans.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: A little courtesy goes a long way in keeping everyone moving safely.
• 21:30
  Jeff Cranson: As promised, I'm back with Mohammed Al-Ghourabi, who was the longtime project manager on what was the Detroit River International Crossing, DRIC became under Governor Snyder, NITSI, which was the new international trade crossing, and then eventually became the Gordihau International Bridge.
• 21:50
  Jeff Cranson: Mohammed was there for all of that.
• 21:52
  Jeff Cranson: He was in on the earliest days from the time they were going through the NEPA process, determining a location, uh figuring out a way to make that location work and then following the ups and downs from uh a little bit of removed perch because he wasn't involved in the actual negotiations and the back and forth with the Canadian and U.S.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: governments but he certainly uh had a keen interest in what they were talking about and I think uh in those days Mohammed you probably went to bed every night not knowing what was gonna happen the next day is that fair to say good afternoon Jeff yes uh that's pretty accurate uh I I it became uh you you become so close to it it becomes like your baby uh I don't think any any parent uh can close their eyes truly when their baby they know their baby is beside them so it was it became like a baby it has been so long since I heard you refer to the bridge as a baby it's it's refreshing to bring that memory back.
• 22:52
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about how you first came to be involved in the project and what your memories are of those earliest days.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's that's really awesome that you bring this up um because I want to give a shout out to um a couple people uh without mentioning names but in the in the planning you know area of the department bureau planning were advert advertised a position for a new senior project manager and at the time I was like not sure whether I should go for it or not.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: When I read about it I was like man it sounds so intriguing you know finding a new location locating a bridge and a custom plaza and a freeway right in the southeast Michigan uh specifically in the southwest Detroit area and I was intrigued and applied for the job not knowing for sure I'm gonna get it or not so I was uh spent 10 years of my life in in the highway uh Jeff as you know the department structure as an engineer but then I crossed the the you know like that's basically uh it's taboo when you have an engineer going over to the planning however all I can I look back and I spent two two thirds of my career in the planning area and I I want to say it was it was a joy right from the beginning to the end you're not to take anything away from highway sorry I said you were born to be a hybrid I was hybrid i i am hybrid you're absolutely right but the thing that brings me so so close to uh feeling so good about it the whole time from start to end is the people i am more attached to the people than anyone I know uh and I'm not you know bragging or anything but I just that was my job when people ask me so you're the guy that did build it you're the guy that designed it no neither I'm the one that brought it to the people connect the people to the to the highway engineers and the highway you know and and the geotechnical person and the hydraulics and all the specialties that you know can on and on and on but that that's not what's what's important is could we and can we because ultimately who are the users the people whether you're in the neighborhood whether you're coming to the neighborhood whether you're passing it through uh you are the people always are the users of the infrastructure we build and we have to make those that connection we have to make it dialed in from day one.
• 25:33
  Jeff Cranson: Well that's why I'm glad you set all that up with the importance that you place on people but it's because it's exactly because of that and the relationships that you built um that got us to to where we are um and when I think about it you can tell me but I don't think that that's really something you learned in engineering school is it?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna humble myself Jeff I don't believe I've described this to you but I'm gonna say that to you because on this amazing project that we now can say it's all open and and being used and utilized and we feel good about it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I can say this I had a gentleman and I'm gonna say the name because he is a wonderful person stayed with the Project Faithful for a long long time his name is John Nagy he approached me at the at the podium after the meeting and he started asking me specific questions about his home and how is that going to affect him and I at the time I was still a pup you know you're talking 23 years ago so um I was 15.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um so anyways uh John taught me quite a bit because I was taking things personal as a young engineer like most my colleagues engineers we we we think when we go to the public we know what we what we're gonna deliver we know what the people want and we want we we know how to show them and uh they can ask questions but really unfortunately I'm not saying everybody but I'm the majority we say well we know because we know and therefore we can show them well he showed me he put me in my place and wanted me to listen to what he had to say about the neighborhood about the environment about what what is important and what is not important and I listened we you know it started we started off not so great but let me tell you we became best friends I mean someone that if if he calls me today he I would pick up the phone immediately because I know how much he means to me and I know how much I mean to him.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: So again to say to say the least it's not what we think and what engineering school or planning school taught us it's what we what the people teach us because they know best.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: When you put all your faith in the people and let the people help you guide you they want your knowledge don't get me wrong so you can't sit there and say well what do you how do you want it or what do you like let's say they throw a proposal they want you to take the proposal and go finalize it or not finalize it but draw it up and bring it back to them but they want they they count on your knowledge but they want to give you the parameters if that makes sense.
• 28:33
  Jeff Cranson: No it does and I think when I started shortly after Governor Snyder announced in the state of the state address in 2011 that he had reached a deal with the Canadians to to make it happen and that just set in motion a number of other things that had to happen before there could be a crossing agreement signed and you could get uh other sign offs from the U.S.
• 28:55
  Jeff Cranson: federal government but what I saw I I missed those earliest days you're talking about but what I saw with you um was when MDOT had to begin negotiating to buy the property and there were you know a handful of people not all many many went willingly because what they what they got was a pretty good offer for their homes and they uh got relocation costs and they were happy but there were some people who um as much as it might have been financially advantaged to them they just wanted to stay in their homes and one of those I'll always remember is Mrs.
• 29:30
  Jeff Cranson: Finn um can you uh tell her story because I'll never forget how everybody else was having a very difficult time dealing with her and then when you and I met with her she just melted.
• 29:43
  Jeff Cranson: She's like oh Mohammed if if if you think I should move then maybe I should move it's just she had that much trust and and respect for you.
• 29:51
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about how that came to be well Mrs.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Finn has another big place in my heart and I I say this we learn a lot and we have to remember that uh we uh Jeff she taught us a lot when we met with her because she uh unfold uh the uh story about how MDOT uh actually acquired properties from her parents and when the first time uh going around with I-75.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so here we come back again as a young girl she was a young dream and displaced by I-75 right exactly I mean I think most of please and I hope you're if you're my fellow um daughters or fellow uh engineer that you work on the project I don't want you to get offended but I I know you when you hear these things you're like you know in so many words you're trying to do your job and I understand that but it's more than doing your job this is something that you have to feel emotional you have to feel sympathetic uh empathetic you have to have the feelings for it because when when I heard it I didn't I'll be honest with you I didn't know it it it it opened my eyes quite wide open because when she says to us give me more time I have more stuff that I really need to process it through I have sentimental things and I know some people may have looked at some of the stuff from a distance and they may think that it's what is it well don't question that that's not your yours to the question it is sentimental for her those were left by her parents and I think once we uh thanks to Jeff because he he kind of oh you know you you said let's let's go visit let's go talk to her let's let's let's embark on something more than the usual you know you have somebody from the vendor or third party that is helping us and they did a fantastic job but this was a special case we had to treat it delicately yeah well and and and you did and in the end things turned out really well but I just I wanted to highlight that as an example you had so many more of those conversations and so much troubleshooting you had to do behind the scenes and um and I should give a shout out to Stephanie Compo who was in charge of community relations for the Windsor Detroit Bridge Authority and also spent a lot of time in Delray and the Detroit neighborhoods and built those relationships and listened at public meetings and took every request very seriously you can't overstate how important that is I mean to the extent that I actually built a presentation in 2018 called Trusted Voices and part of that was focusing on on you and you know deploying Mohammed to to teach and help build relationships.
• 32:53
  Jeff Cranson: So as you think back citing those specifics is is really helpful but talk about the highlights over the years.
• 33:00
  Jeff Cranson: I mean when going from those early days um just talking about you know where it might go and what would need to happen to the time that you really were able to move on from the project um sometime after the early works began in 2018 and you had other big things that MDA wanted you to do but um just I guess touch on on what you saw as as as your highlights being involved in the project.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I think Jeff when I look back and I think of Southwestern high school which um it's no longer there it's a it's a landmark it was a landmark for the anybody in from the Southwest Detroit I mean there are quite a few people who um you know people that are you will if if I mention their name you'll know them that went to Southwestern high school that was really a a a very uh wonderful place for the purpose of meeting on the Gordy on on the the time Dreck Detroit River International Crossing and I guess the highlight Jeff I remember uh folks like Marianne uh uh that you know the the the lady that comes from uh Windsor uh uh and and Terrence uh her her uh another gentleman that they used to come together and and uh Cotterman the her last name is Cutterman and and she it was the the the voice for the sandwich town the voice for West Windsor and and and again similarly uh I had Mrs.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Leonard I will never forget you you remember Jeff uh Mrs.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Leonard was a retired uh school teacher and she uh I I guess what I want to describe to you the highlight is the faithfulness whether it was it was it happened I believe if I remember correctly every Wednesday night and it it didn't matter whether it's uh sunny day uh it's raining it's snowing it's hailing it's you know no matter what it is what what the condition was they were always there and they shaped the project as we start developing the project as we start trying to realize where we should locate the the the you know the the the area that deals with the customs uh and uh you know area uh or or whether it's the uh any other areas like for for the highway how we connect the freeway to we call it Michigan interchange that we connected the Michigan uh highway into the uh custom plaza all of those they helped us shape them and they told us what they want what they didn't want and they told us that's one of the things and then also I have to give a a big shout out to my my brother uh Marcel Todd who uh basically he he represents the planning commission so he's the director of planning commission he's like an advisor for the for the council honorable council and he always brought in his staff and his staff were were top-notch people you know people that are so familiar with the area and so we took the land use and we tried to uh deploy the what outcomes that were coming out of the Detroit River International Crossing to make the the city work hand in hand with us so in other words I'll just give one last example uh the east part of uh uh Del Rey was more industrial versus the west side of Del Rey was more uh residential and the people fought tooth and nail to tell us to make it abundantly clear to MDAT and anybody that can listen that please if you're gonna do something do it on the east side and leave the west side so we can reside there so we can live there and we we did that and and that is because the people that's because we we listened to the people because they they they were the voice behind the success of this project really Jeff everything I give in terms of success and why it it went forward is because the community supported it yes maybe it didn't support it in the beginning but once they start walking the walk with us uh Simone and others I mean I can name uh quite a few um but all I'm and I'm gonna miss quite a few but what I'm saying is they really shaped the project kept the project going and we we made it to the end.
• 37:46
  Jeff Cranson: Well I told others and you know tell you that because we weren't able to have a a a true celebration and all that matters to any of us and I know you feel this way is that the bridge was opened and that it is out open and that it's operating now but of all the people that I most wanted to see there being recognized for for their contributions um to getting it where it was you you were you were the one um you took it to that point.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hussein Ibrahim who took over the on the ground management of the project once work was being done um also did tremendous work uh lots of patience lots lots of uh fires to put out every day and um so all of you deserved that that moment to to stand there and breathe it in and I'm sorry that you didn't get that I I hope that there will still be some kind of celebration at at some point but uh I also appreciate that that you told me at the time that hey if if they just get the thing open I'll be happy and uh so so I hope you are I am very happy I'm really happy that not only the bridges itself is open but the the uh bike path the walk path that is open because to to me I had so many people they became a true and true uh friend of the project and they couldn't wait to the day that they can start walking it biking it and they did it and they showed me and sent me pictures and they're so excited so to me Jeff honestly that is the celebration is when the people get to reap the benefits we talked about it enough to say how important it is how good it is uh now let the let the truth come by itself prove itself without us having to say anything because every day is going to go by it's gonna make the area even better and better and better.
• 39:44
  Jeff Cranson: Last week August 5th the day that the the bike path and uh non-motorized path opened uh they were overwhelmed by the number of people who were lined up uh mostly with their their bikes ready to to cross and that's just really cool I mean the idea that you can go uh you know basically from a launch to Peely Island uh you know across the bridge down the Detroit Riverfront um you know all the way if you want to you can go all the way to Belle Isle um on a path that's pretty cool.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Jeff I had friends literally from Washington State all the way to Vermont calling me on a regular basis.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've got them on a speed dial.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: When will the bridge open?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they have connection to Michigan but they now live in a different place but they they know about it and that this is the most important thing in their life is to cross the the Gordy Howe International Bridge.
• 40:42
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah no that's great.
• 40:43
  Jeff Cranson: I I congratulations to you and to everybody else but I especially I wanted to talk to you and and Kirk Steidel the the former director because you guys were in the trenches early on.
• 40:54
  Jeff Cranson: So so thanks Mohammed thanks for taking time to to share those memories um I look forward to when we can get down there together and and truly celebrate thank you very much I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 41:09
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Bussprout I also want to acknowledge the talented people who helped make this a reality week starting with Randy Deviler who skillfully edits the audio Jesse Ball who proofs the content and Jackie Sullivan who hosts the podcast to various platforms and transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all