Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: S1E74 An Interview with Tim O'Hearn and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: S1E74 An Interview with Tim O'Hearn and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

• 0:16
  Welcome to another episode of Networking Unleashed,
• 0:20
  Building Profitable Connections. I'm your host,
• 0:23
  Michael Foreman, and today we're calling out
• 0:26
  the elephant in a room, the illusion of connection
• 0:29
  in the age of screens, scrolls, and social metrics.
• 0:33
  My guest brings a bold perspective on something
• 0:37
  we're all grappling with, how misplaced confidence
• 0:40
  in likes, followers, and digital popularity is
• 0:44
  eroding our ability to build meaningful, trusted
• 0:48
  -based relationships. We'll dig into the consequences
• 0:52
  of screen addiction, the trap of chasing attention
• 0:56
  instead of building credibility, and how news
• 0:59
  feeds, yes, even the well -designed ones, have
• 1:03
  hijacked the trust we once gave to real journalists
• 1:07
  and real conversations. So, if you've ever felt
• 1:11
  the pressure to perform online, If you're questioning
• 1:15
  what real influence really looks like, or if
• 1:18
  you're ready to build relationships that don't
• 1:22
  depend on algorithms, this episode is for you.
• 1:25
  It's time to break free from the noise and reclaim
• 1:28
  what connection was always meant to be personal,
• 1:32
  powerful, and profitable. My guest today is Tim
• 1:37
  O 'Hearn, and I would like to tell you about
• 1:40
  his background, but I'll probably butcher it,
• 1:42
  so I'm not going to. I will allow Tim to introduce
• 1:45
  himself and give us a taste of his background.
• 1:48
  Tim, good morning. How are you? Good morning,
• 1:51
  Michael. I'm good. Good. Give us a little taste
• 1:54
  of your background. I'm a software engineer by
• 1:58
  training, and software engineering as a very
• 2:01
  broad discipline has brought me to many different
• 2:03
  places. The most relevant for this conversation
• 2:06
  is that one of my side hustles or side quests,
• 2:09
  if you will, was involved with the Instagram
• 2:12
  underworld. So I built automation systems that
• 2:15
  got people more followers on. That's great. I'm
• 2:19
  sure a lot of people are very interested in what
• 2:21
  you had to do. Okay, so let's delve right into
• 2:23
  a couple of questions. We live in a world where
• 2:27
  likes feel like validation. How do social metrics
• 2:31
  distort the way people approach real networking?
• 2:36
  It's very complicated because we always need
• 2:39
  something. We need some indication of this measure
• 2:43
  of social proof. Whether that's in the real world,
• 2:47
  there are certain things we look to establish
• 2:49
  someone at a very short introduction. In the
• 2:53
  same way, in the digital world, we don't have
• 2:55
  time to look through someone's post history,
• 2:58
  someone's friends, someone's interactions, we
• 3:01
  need something instantly. And what we found,
• 3:04
  at least since the days of MySpace, is that we
• 3:07
  can look to metrics such as friend count to understand
• 3:12
  this. And once we went with this follower following
• 3:15
  model, which we saw on Instagram, we started
• 3:18
  to say, this person is more important, authoritative,
• 3:22
  authentic, if they have more followers. And that's
• 3:26
  what it all comes down to. Okay, can you talk
• 3:29
  about the difference between digital visibility
• 3:33
  and actual influence and why they're not the
• 3:36
  same thing? When you reduce influence or popularity
• 3:41
  to these metrics, you are trusting the platform
• 3:44
  or the user who has the metrics implicitly. So
• 3:48
  if I come on your podcast and I say, hey, I'm
• 3:51
  Tim, I have 100 ,000 followers. you have really
• 3:55
  no way to validate that every one of those 100
• 3:59
  ,000 followers is a real person. And if you did,
• 4:03
  it would take an outrageous amount of time. You
• 4:04
  would basically need a team of private investigators.
• 4:07
  It makes no sense. So we place trust in these,
• 4:11
  some baseline trust, but what we find is that
• 4:13
  it doesn't necessarily represent real people
• 4:17
  or an engaged audience. For example, you may
• 4:21
  have... 20 ,000 followers, subscribers on YouTube,
• 4:25
  but maybe they subscribed 20 years ago or 15
• 4:29
  years ago and they don't watch the videos. So
• 4:31
  while it might at a glance look like importance,
• 4:34
  if we don't see those people actually engaging
• 4:37
  and buying into the current day messaging, then
• 4:39
  it's almost as if they're not there at all. Okay.
• 4:43
  So how has screen dependence changed the way
• 4:48
  we listen, connect, or even show up? in conversations.
• 4:54
  It's really undermined what I think you've preached
• 4:57
  a lot in your work and your appearances where
• 5:00
  we talk about public speaking. And then within
• 5:02
  public speaking, we also have this notion of
• 5:04
  just social interaction, which has things like
• 5:08
  how to make eye contact, how to structure sentences,
• 5:11
  like how to have a normal bilateral conversation
• 5:14
  or discussion. When we look to what screens have
• 5:18
  done to society, there's no way that I could
• 5:21
  have captured it all in a book, but I tried my
• 5:24
  best. The issues have really been magnified by
• 5:28
  cell phones. So the original issue, which was
• 5:32
  captured in books such as The Shallows, What
• 5:35
  the Internet is Doing to Our Brains, is that
• 5:38
  Because we could rely on the internet and search
• 5:41
  engines in general, it was pretty easy to just
• 5:44
  only know what you had to Google search. And
• 5:47
  that was the extent of your knowledge. And then
• 5:49
  you knew what to search. You could look at those
• 5:51
  results and figure it out. But today, because
• 5:55
  we have these tools and more advanced tools,
• 5:58
  obviously, in the AI space, and we have it on
• 6:00
  our phones, the question becomes, do we really
• 6:04
  have to think at all? And so when we think about
• 6:07
  social relationships and public speaking, marketing,
• 6:11
  when we think about different ways that we express
• 6:13
  ourselves, everything has become completely different.
• 6:16
  And nowadays, the people we're looking to as
• 6:20
  these kind of tastemakers or thought leaders,
• 6:22
  even in the speaking space, are influenced by
• 6:26
  short form content, which I can say is even very
• 6:29
  divergent from what I grew up admiring and learning
• 6:32
  from. Yeah, you know, you've said so many important
• 6:36
  things, and I want to hit on every single one
• 6:39
  of them, but we'd be here for three hours. I
• 6:42
  really feel that ever since the pandemic, this
• 6:45
  has gotten even worse because people rely on
• 6:48
  the Zoom, the cell phones, and people, if you
• 6:52
  ask them a question, they immediately go to their
• 6:54
  cell phone and they look it up. They say, no,
• 6:57
  that's really not quite correct. Or whereas before,
• 7:01
  you had a little bit of leeway, but... It just
• 7:03
  really, it's like instant gratification. And
• 7:06
  people are trying to keep that instant gratification.
• 7:12
  And I think it's more so with the 20 and 30 -somethings
• 7:16
  that they always, it's like the phone is tethered
• 7:20
  to their bodies. The 40 -somethings and 50 -somethings,
• 7:24
  60 -somethings, such as me, don't rely on it
• 7:28
  so much. but it's all what you're talking about.
• 7:31
  And you mentioned a book. Did you write a book?
• 7:34
  Yes. The Shallows is not the book that I wrote,
• 7:37
  but my book published earlier this year is called
• 7:40
  Framed, A Villain's Perspective on Social Media.
• 7:43
  And it addresses my story of growing up with
• 7:46
  the internet. So having been born in the 90s.
• 7:49
  learning how to actually write software, so to
• 7:52
  become a software engineer, and then to create
• 7:54
  bots that earned me money, but that also caused
• 7:58
  chaos or disruption on social media platforms.
• 8:02
  Then it's all wrapped in this shell of, now I
• 8:05
  have to deal with the consequences. Not to say
• 8:07
  that I was the primary villain here, but I was
• 8:10
  definitely an enemy. And now I have to deal with
• 8:12
  the consequences of living with an internet that
• 8:15
  is so different from the one I grew up admiring.
• 8:18
  Okay, good. I wanted to get your book in here
• 8:22
  somehow so you can talk about it, and hopefully
• 8:25
  everybody will take a look at it and read it.
• 8:27
  What advice do you have for professionals who
• 8:31
  want to build genuine connections but feel addicted
• 8:35
  to online engagement? This is a really important
• 8:40
  point. It's something that I added to the book
• 8:43
  almost as this bolt -on chapter. And the chapter
• 8:46
  is called Getting Good. What I address in that
• 8:50
  chapter is considering the thousands of customers
• 8:52
  I had when I worked at this social media startup
• 8:56
  called Shark Social, where we were getting people
• 8:58
  more followers. Every one of these customers...
• 9:01
  gave us a little bit of a backstory of why they
• 9:04
  signed up and what they were looking to do and
• 9:06
  of course we can make assumptions generally they
• 9:08
  equated more followers with more success how
• 9:11
  we started this episode but really like when
• 9:15
  it all comes down to it we found that a lot of
• 9:17
  these behaviors just came down to baseline addiction
• 9:21
  so many business owners you think it's a single
• 9:24
  person they have their phone they have their
• 9:26
  personal account Then they create their business
• 9:28
  account. And we found that many of them were
• 9:31
  falling into this trap where they would just
• 9:34
  scroll all day except on their business account
• 9:37
  because they found that was maybe helping them
• 9:39
  with competitive intelligence. It was helping
• 9:41
  them run their business better where you or I
• 9:44
  could probably agree that you very quickly reach
• 9:47
  the point of diminishing returns. So there's
• 9:49
  a very strong relationship between these addictive
• 9:52
  behaviors and then also pitfalls in the business
• 9:55
  space. especially for sole proprietors. Good.
• 9:59
  Speaking as a sole proprietor myself, I own brick
• 10:03
  and mortar businesses beforehand. It's very important
• 10:07
  to me to keep my brand up and I need to see what
• 10:11
  other public speakers are doing, but they're
• 10:14
  not necessarily competition. It's more because
• 10:17
  it's like a family and we just like to keep up
• 10:21
  on everybody so we see what everybody's doing.
• 10:24
  But yes, that's a very good point. Okay. What
• 10:28
  impact do you think news feeds, as well as algorithm
• 10:32
  -driven design, have had on our ability to trust
• 10:35
  people and conversations? We can look at the
• 10:40
  name of the feature and start to draw back some
• 10:43
  of the consequences of this design and what we
• 10:46
  would say are even dark patterns involved with
• 10:48
  the implementation. When Facebook came out with
• 10:52
  this concept of a news feed, I believe that they
• 10:56
  co -opted the trust that we had as Americans
• 10:59
  in newscasters of the 20th century. So what I'm
• 11:04
  saying there is that we have this baseline trust
• 11:07
  for news and how we get news. And of course,
• 11:10
  today, that's very different. But the truth is
• 11:13
  that going into the new millennium, like we had
• 11:15
  very high trust for national newscasters, local
• 11:19
  newscasters, etc. When we moved from a chronological
• 11:24
  feed, meaning every piece of content that anyone
• 11:27
  posts, you just see it in chronological order.
• 11:30
  When we moved from that to something that was
• 11:32
  constructed more intelligently, we started to
• 11:35
  use the term newsfeed to represent it. And in
• 11:38
  that case, you start seeing ads and you also
• 11:41
  start seeing content from other sources. The
• 11:44
  issue with that is as more and more people began
• 11:47
  to use social media, they would log on their
• 11:50
  first day and say, oh, because this content is
• 11:54
  at the top of my page, it must be more trustworthy.
• 11:57
  It must be true. It must be the most important
• 12:02
  thing for me to see today. And it's a very unique,
• 12:05
  I would say, like hijacking of the trust we would
• 12:09
  typically have. Even when you think about print
• 12:12
  news, you open a newspaper and what do you have?
• 12:15
  You have the main headline. When we look at website
• 12:18
  design today or the algorithmic feeds, you do
• 12:22
  tend to look at the top first. And we find a
• 12:25
  lot of news sites today are designed the same
• 12:27
  as newspapers were in the 1800s. So I think that
• 12:30
  the news feeds just by name suggest this co -opting
• 12:34
  of trust. And then a lot of the more underhanded
• 12:37
  software -based stuff that goes on in exactly
• 12:40
  how they're constructed. is a huge problem that
• 12:43
  nobody can unravel because not one person even
• 12:46
  knows how it works. True. Very true. Okay. Speaking
• 12:52
  of mistakes, do you think people are mistaking
• 12:57
  online presence for credibility? And how can
• 13:01
  we use help? How can we help our audiences to
• 13:05
  reframe that mindset? There are two sides to
• 13:09
  this coin. There's no doubt about it. No matter
• 13:12
  what you're doing, there is this pressure to
• 13:15
  be online and to have some presence to support
• 13:19
  it. Even with my book, one of the ironic parts
• 13:23
  about my book is that people say, oh, you did
• 13:25
  all this. Why aren't you on Instagram? And I'm
• 13:29
  not on Instagram because I've had hundreds of
• 13:30
  accounts banned on Instagram and I'm not allowed
• 13:33
  to have one. But in the more general sense, there
• 13:36
  is this pervasive idea that you must be online
• 13:39
  and that it's important to construct who you
• 13:42
  are or what you're saying you're doing in your
• 13:45
  craft or your business with your online persona.
• 13:49
  And I think that's becoming more and more difficult
• 13:52
  where everything's saturated, right? So like
• 13:55
  for me, There's thousands of authors trying to
• 13:57
  do the same thing. In the book review space,
• 13:59
  there's thousands of people just reviewing books.
• 14:02
  So to introduce yourself here and to say, I'm
• 14:05
  not an influencer who created a product. I'm
• 14:09
  a writer who now has to be on social media so
• 14:12
  I can connect with fans and people who are interested
• 14:15
  in it. I think it's really important for a business
• 14:17
  owner, for a musician and entertainer, any type
• 14:20
  of personality to understand what the balance
• 14:23
  is between what they're getting from social media
• 14:26
  and what they're providing via their craft. For
• 14:30
  me, I'm like 90 % on my craft, which is writing
• 14:34
  and hopefully developing some speaking ability
• 14:36
  as well. And maybe 10 % on, yes, I have a little
• 14:40
  bit of a hustle with my newsletter website and
• 14:43
  other social media profiles. You can really say
• 14:47
  that the average businessman, excuse me. The
• 14:54
  average business person with a brick -and -mortar
• 14:57
  store needs an online presence, okay, because
• 15:00
  they want to sell their product more than locally.
• 15:05
  Now, somebody such as myself, I have a website
• 15:09
  and everything, and I want to sell nationally
• 15:11
  because I'm selling myself, and I travel to different
• 15:15
  parts. business come together. Do I make myself
• 15:27
  clear? Yes. Okay. You really have to find that
• 15:30
  balance. And some people who just want to do
• 15:33
  business online, that's a whole different ballgame.
• 15:36
  That's everything. Okay. So enough of that. What
• 15:40
  warning signs should we look at for when digital
• 15:44
  networking starts replacing real world relationship
• 15:48
  building? I think The more we insert technology
• 15:54
  into this socialization, that becomes more of
• 15:58
  a warning sign. And the more, I don't wanna say
• 16:01
  it's a prescient one, but the more pressing warning
• 16:04
  is when we're starting to use AI for all types
• 16:08
  of interaction. So even in the last year, the
• 16:11
  amount of AI driven or AI augmented emails I
• 16:16
  get is scary. but what's scarier is when you
• 16:19
  already have a relationship with someone and
• 16:23
  then they're using ai to carry it out and they're
• 16:25
  using a scheduler and you're like oh that's interesting
• 16:28
  it's exactly 30 days after we last had contact
• 16:31
  all this wrap up between automation and ai it's
• 16:35
  not the digit it's not like making it digital
• 16:38
  that is the problem it's then inserting all these
• 16:41
  tools that actually remove the the human element
• 16:45
  And maybe even the basic one, like the most generic,
• 16:47
  is how much easier it is to remember someone's
• 16:51
  birthday today compared to 10 or 15 years ago,
• 16:55
  right? Like that used to be the trick of the
• 16:57
  trade for anyone who was in sales or any relationship
• 17:00
  -based business. You have a calendar and you
• 17:03
  actually mark people's birthdays. And it takes
• 17:06
  some effort to push those birthdays from one
• 17:08
  calendar year to another. Now, on your Google
• 17:11
  calendar, you can just say, okay, this is this
• 17:13
  person's birthday. I found it on Facebook. I
• 17:15
  found it on LinkedIn. And let's just make it
• 17:18
  recur every year and make sure I wish this person
• 17:21
  a happy birthday. So I think, not to say that's
• 17:24
  disingenuous, but technology has helped a lot.
• 17:26
  A lot of people now are leaning on it too much
• 17:29
  in ways that their actions in the real world
• 17:31
  are not reflective. I see the difference between
• 17:35
  AI and just using a CRM. OK, to help your business.
• 17:41
  And because I'm guilty of that also, I put it
• 17:44
  all the information I can about a prospective
• 17:47
  or current client into my CRM. So I don't have
• 17:52
  to think about that. So I'm thinking about other
• 17:54
  things. And when it comes up as my daily feed,
• 17:58
  I'll say, oh, I have to wish this person a happy
• 18:00
  birthday. I write them a happy birthday. I don't
• 18:04
  have my CRM write it for me. Okay, so it's like
• 18:08
  in the middle. But I think a person in business
• 18:12
  today needs a very good CRM. And whether or not
• 18:17
  they rely on AI, that's really up to them. But
• 18:21
  I am looking more into the personal. relationships,
• 18:25
  the personal networking, the meeting of the people
• 18:28
  one -on -one, so you can feel the vibe of the
• 18:31
  person, the vibe of the room. You can actually
• 18:34
  get the feeling when you walk into a networking
• 18:36
  event, there's nothing like it. There's nothing
• 18:39
  like feeling that vibe. And when you do everything
• 18:42
  online or through AI, you lose it. You lose all
• 18:45
  that. Yeah, I would say there is an important
• 18:48
  distinction to be made between CRM -like actions,
• 18:52
  which we would say are almost universally helpful,
• 18:54
  and then too much AI where AI is doing the thinking
• 18:57
  for you. It's telling you how to feel and how
• 19:00
  to make other people feel. So that's a good shout.
• 19:02
  I agree 100%. Okay, how can business owners and
• 19:07
  entrepreneurs use social media effectively without
• 19:10
  falling into the trap of digital vanity metrics?
• 19:17
  Organic connections are still very viable. There's
• 19:20
  this emerging philosophy that to be successful
• 19:23
  today, all you really need is a dedicated fan
• 19:27
  base of 100 people. And another podcast host
• 19:31
  actually introduced me to this idea. And they're
• 19:33
  like, would you rather 100 people who you know
• 19:35
  you can count on? Or would you rather maybe 5000
• 19:38
  on a mailing list who you don't even really know
• 19:40
  who they are? And I thought about this a lot.
• 19:43
  especially as it was related to the promotion
• 19:45
  and debut of my book. And it's absolutely true
• 19:49
  in that when we start thinking about starting
• 19:52
  a business and how we can do our best today,
• 19:54
  the idea of organic interactions is really important.
• 19:58
  And for me with the book, that means reaching
• 20:00
  out to people like you and saying, Hey, I actually
• 20:03
  listened to your podcasts. I am familiar with
• 20:07
  these guests. And here's my product. Would you
• 20:10
  like a free copy? And that's about as genuine
• 20:13
  as you can get in today's world. It's actually
• 20:16
  accelerated by the fact that. I could send you
• 20:18
  a digital copy of my book and you could have
• 20:20
  it today. So that's been really helpful compared
• 20:23
  to just shotgunning cold emails, feeling entitled
• 20:26
  to somebody buying your product or converting.
• 20:29
  When you remove a lot of these marketing terms
• 20:31
  and you just start thinking about how would I
• 20:34
  like to be interacted with, that's the best way.
• 20:37
  And like I said, the other side of this is that
• 20:39
  now that I've had more appearances, now that
• 20:41
  the book is selling, it's currently a number
• 20:43
  one bestseller on Kindle. I get emails almost
• 20:46
  every day. And usually one each day will be detailed
• 20:51
  to the point where the person knows me. And they're
• 20:54
  like, hey, I saw your appearance here. I read
• 20:56
  chapter seven of your book here. This is why
• 20:59
  I think you'd be a good fit for my podcast. So
• 21:01
  I'm thinking I'm reaching out on one end. These
• 21:04
  people are reaching out to me on the other end.
• 21:05
  This is what the internet was supposed to be.
• 21:08
  We just have to clear through a lot of the other,
• 21:10
  a lot of the other fluff. Yeah. And trying to
• 21:14
  get through it is a whole nother story, but As
• 21:17
  when we think we're making a little headway,
• 21:19
  it's getting more and more cloudy because more
• 21:22
  and more things are getting in our way. So it's
• 21:25
  becoming increasingly more difficult to do that.
• 21:28
  Okay. And that's where keeping the one -on -one
• 21:31
  is very important. Okay. What role does curation
• 21:35
  play in how we form trust today? And how can
• 21:40
  we shift from a curated persona to a credible
• 21:44
  presence? Sometimes they are one in the same
• 21:49
  because there's a difference between you have
• 21:52
  this idea of discretion where maybe the realist
• 21:56
  or most authentic Tim O 'Hearn would be showing
• 22:00
  you my entire schedule every day rather than
• 22:03
  just the curated part, right? The highlights.
• 22:06
  But does anybody really want to know that I woke
• 22:09
  up at 6am this morning and ran 10 miles? Maybe.
• 22:13
  But it has nothing to do with me like appearing
• 22:15
  on a podcast or honestly selling a book. So even
• 22:18
  though that would be realer, there's still this
• 22:21
  idea that I don't want to clog your feed with
• 22:25
  parts of me that are perhaps not as permanent
• 22:28
  or as relevant to the persona. Part of it is
• 22:31
  saying you need to choose what you want to do.
• 22:34
  And if it's overall, you're selling a lifestyle,
• 22:36
  then show your lifestyle. But for me. I really
• 22:39
  am just selling a book and some of the outgrowths
• 22:42
  of that. So thinking about being a little bit
• 22:44
  more precise there and saying, okay, I'm also
• 22:48
  a sports journalist and I'm also a fairly competitive
• 22:50
  runner. I can't come on podcasts and preach all
• 22:53
  of this at the same time because it sounds ridiculous.
• 22:56
  If I really want to, I would have to create different
• 22:58
  accounts on different sites, or even we see YouTubers
• 23:01
  who have two or three different channels. That
• 23:03
  purpose can be served. So yeah, I think it's
• 23:05
  a delicate balance between what an audience wants
• 23:08
  and then coming up with it. Because as for a
• 23:10
  writer, how do I actually give consistent content
• 23:14
  to someone? If I'm writing another book, it might
• 23:17
  take me another two years. So what am I going
• 23:20
  to do? Release a chapter every couple months?
• 23:23
  Sometimes it doesn't make sense. So depending
• 23:24
  on the content or what you're doing, it's not
• 23:27
  necessary to have a daily update or even a weekly
• 23:31
  update. So it depends with what you're kind of
• 23:34
  receiving there. And those are some ways you
• 23:35
  could do it with splitting the channel. That's
• 23:38
  great. As I'm listening to you, you've been through
• 23:42
  a lot. Okay, you did your software engineering
• 23:47
  and you create this whole thing with social media
• 23:50
  and you made a ton of mistakes that you had to
• 23:53
  either pay for or work through or anything else.
• 23:56
  Can you give us your biggest mistake and how
• 24:00
  you work through it? Yes, or perhaps my biggest
• 24:06
  regret. When we look at Framed and what I'm talking
• 24:10
  about, the kernel of the book is saying, i stumbled
• 24:14
  into the instagram growth space right before
• 24:17
  its heyday i learned all the techniques needed
• 24:22
  on the software systems automation api hacking
• 24:26
  i learned everything technical that i needed
• 24:28
  to know we picked up all the business parts as
• 24:31
  we went if my book is to be believed and i'm
• 24:36
  not a liar about my profit margin about the customers
• 24:41
  about the conversions about the stickiness my
• 24:44
  biggest regret has to be not just quitting my
• 24:47
  day job and going all in on shark social finding
• 24:52
  out years later that our competitors were making
• 24:55
  10 times as much per month would have been the
• 24:58
  difference between me not having to work today
• 25:02
  and me still working today so it has to be saying
• 25:05
  that I was doing almost everything at the same
• 25:08
  level. We had the search engine optimization.
• 25:10
  Everything was good, but we actually just didn't
• 25:14
  have the maturity to know how big the pie was.
• 25:18
  And we didn't go, a team of three of us, all
• 25:21
  of us were doing other things. And we just never
• 25:23
  really went into it. The benefit maybe to everyone
• 25:27
  listening now is that You got a book out of it.
• 25:30
  And it's very unlikely that I face legal action
• 25:34
  because I was such a small player and it happened
• 25:36
  so many years ago. But that's definitely one
• 25:38
  regret we have to look at in that it was a mistake.
• 25:41
  We were naive and we were blinded by money that
• 25:44
  was paying our rent when we were 23 years old.
• 25:47
  Do you ever think about going back into that
• 25:50
  realm? I do. And there have been some temptations
• 25:54
  where there's this difference between easy money.
• 25:58
  And some of these newfangled, oh, we'll do AI
• 26:01
  for this and AI for that. What people don't realize
• 26:04
  in a lot of these zero to one businesses, meaning
• 26:07
  you're creating a new business segment, you're
• 26:09
  doing actual innovation. It's very hard and it
• 26:12
  takes a lot of money. When you're in this gray
• 26:16
  area, terms of service violation space, there
• 26:20
  is a high risk of just outright failure. But
• 26:24
  the cost. is relatively low. And people like
• 26:28
  me working on a small team can do it in a bootstrapped
• 26:31
  manner, meaning we don't need to raise money.
• 26:33
  We could just start it up and see what sticks.
• 26:36
  So I still am tempted to do it, even though in
• 26:39
  the Instagram space, it's really not possible.
• 26:42
  Right now, it seems it's most common on LinkedIn.
• 26:46
  actually, people have approached me and said,
• 26:48
  Hey, do you want to do this and that? And I said,
• 26:50
  Yeah, it would be quite quite ironic for me to
• 26:52
  have written the book in the way I did. And then
• 26:55
  to just be doing the shady stuff on the side.
• 26:57
  But I think it's a matter of when times are rough,
• 27:00
  if it is a time of famine, and I really needed
• 27:02
  to eat, so to speak, that is where I would go.
• 27:05
  And that's where I think we see some of the smartest
• 27:07
  people who maybe are willing to compromise their
• 27:10
  values and risk take legal risks, because it
• 27:14
  is quite profitable for what you are risking
• 27:17
  and you're not creating the next Facebook. You're
• 27:20
  just creating a really useful tool that essentially
• 27:22
  leeches off one of these platforms. Okay. Okay.
• 27:26
  So let's bring this podcast full circle. Looking
• 27:30
  ahead, what habits should we build now to ensure
• 27:34
  our networking efforts are rooted in trust and
• 27:38
  not just technology? Getting to know the person
• 27:43
  on the other end of the screen is really important.
• 27:46
  And for me, I can give the evidence of promoting
• 27:50
  the book, doing podcast appearances, treating
• 27:53
  people like humans rather than sales leads is
• 27:57
  really important. Taking the extra few minutes
• 28:00
  to get to know them and to read their work is
• 28:03
  paramount. For me, I've pitched my book to everyone
• 28:06
  from scoundrels who I used to work with to journalists.
• 28:11
  and also to academics i've had relative success
• 28:14
  in every one of these realms of pitching the
• 28:17
  book to people and even getting good feedback
• 28:19
  on the book but when you're pitching an academic
• 28:21
  sometimes you have to actually read their paper
• 28:24
  and that's not a five minute thing so it's saying
• 28:28
  if you believe in what you're doing what you're
• 28:30
  selling perhaps it means actually taking the
• 28:33
  time to know who's on the other side of the screen
• 28:35
  And that means respecting their feelings, but
• 28:37
  it also means reaching a much greater understanding
• 28:40
  of what they're bringing to the table and why
• 28:42
  the outreach is even relevant to them. That's
• 28:46
  great. Tim, I can probably talk to you for another
• 28:48
  two hours because it's so interesting in what
• 28:51
  you're saying, but due to time restraints, we
• 28:54
  cannot do it. But how can somebody get hold of
• 28:58
  you? What's the best way for them to get hold
• 29:00
  of you, either to ask a question for your book
• 29:03
  or... want to know more about you, how can they
• 29:06
  do it? I'm on LinkedIn, one of the few platforms
• 29:10
  where I have no restrictions. So I'm Tim O 'Hearn
• 29:13
  on LinkedIn. Everyone looking to read my book
• 29:16
  or learn more about it, it is listed on Amazon.
• 29:19
  So Framed, A Villain's Perspective on Social
• 29:21
  Media, ebook, as well as paperback. And the audio
• 29:25
  book is coming later this summer. Okay, that's
• 29:29
  great. Tim, again. Thank you very much for coming
• 29:32
  on my podcast. I hope everybody listening actually
• 29:35
  listened to the podcast, pick up his book, read
• 29:39
  it, and maybe you might learn something about
• 29:41
  social media. Okay, so Tim, have a great day.
• 29:46
  Thanks, Michael. Well, hold on, folks. Don't
• 29:53
  go anywhere. Let's hear from our sponsors. David
• 29:57
  Neal, co -founder, Revved Up Kids. Revved Up
• 30:00
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  children, teens, and adults. To learn more, go
• 30:14
  to revvedupkids .org. Henry Kaplan, Century 21.
• 30:19
  When it comes to making the biggest financial
• 30:21
  decision of your life, leave it in the hands
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  of a proven professional, Henry Kaplan. Henry
• 30:27
  is a global real estate agent with Century 21,
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  celebrating his 41st year in business. No matter
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  where you're moving, Henry has the right connections
• 30:37
  for you. You can contact Henry at 561 -427 -4888.
• 30:48
  insights today. And of course, a big shout out
• 30:52
  to you, our amazing listeners, for tuning in
• 30:55
  and spending your time with us. If you're interested
• 30:58
  in my digital courses, being coached or having
• 31:01
  me come and talk to your company, just go to
• 31:04
  Michael and fill out the request form. Remember,
• 31:08
  networking isn't about being perfect. It's about
• 31:11
  being present. So take what you've learned today,
• 31:14
  get out there and make some meaningful connections.
• 31:18
  If you've enjoyed this episode, please don't
• 31:21
  forget to subscribe. Leave us a review and share
• 31:24
  it with someone who could use a little networking
• 31:26
  inspiration. Let's keep the conversation going.
• 31:29
  You can find me on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, YouTube,
• 31:34
  or my website, foreman .com slash podcasts.