Latest / The Padded Cell Podcast / EPISODE 145 - 'Gangsters, Heroes & Torture'

Transcript

EPISODE 145 - 'Gangsters, Heroes & Torture' · The Padded Cell Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Coming up on episode 145.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: So sorry, I've just punched your microphone.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you do not have fun, the dictator will kill you.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Tell him to get in the bin.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Andy, I just realised I've said my bad anticipation.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wellness.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: You with me?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Slap the paws open.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's it was.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Swill your minge and wash your pist.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Combine them with two kinks.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Are you a deviant?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like those of us who binge watch serial killer programs, laugh at the stupid stuff people do, and revel in anything adult.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you found your people! Join us as we crack open the door to Path of Cell and release the insanely stupid, the weirdly wonderful, and those who choose to live outside of sides for norms.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We delve into the strange, the macabre, the sexy and the outrageous! So, if you're a deviant, then you have your place with us in the Pathet Cell.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is powered by our Patreons.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, one and all, for your support.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: We really couldn't keep the lights on without you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And a special thank you to our new patrons, Jane, Jason, and Michael.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to episode 145 of the Path of Cell podcast.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm here yet again with City Wednesday! I have to make it weirder every time I come on, so I'm so glad.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that you've got pants on.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're not having a fan thango.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd done that with a skirt, you would have got a full-on minge.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wouldn't have done it, to be fair.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have done it if that was the case.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: However, I do have shorts.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: I look a bit like Fred Dennis when I wear these shorts from Limp Biscuit.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't know what it was.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, keep rolling, rolling, rolling.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, he loves it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: The guy.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh the guy, the main singer, he has like a little hat on and he's like in all of his photos.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's how he poses.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he has these long shorts on, does he?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Denham.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: He wears jots.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Does he wear like dead baggy clothes?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like Eminem back in the day.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: In 2026.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, he's doing a thing at the minute because obviously he's a lot older than when those songs came out in the 90s, and he started just dressing like a little old man for the fun of it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: I love him.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Has he?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I like that.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of hot.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So what about uh bands?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, where we are, we can see over the river.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Foo Fighters were on the other night in Anfield.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think I might have told you this or I didn't, but I haven't told you.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we were like, what's that music?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, all the winders around it's hot.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: What the fuck's that?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we had to look it up that it was a Foo Fighters, we didn't have a clue.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, this fireworks started going off, like, oh my god.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, where we are, we could see it all.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I got some pictures and I just I couldn't get my video on quick enough to get the whole thing on video.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But got the last little love it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was really good.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we could hear the crowds from here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: You'll be able to hear me.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just me.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: No one else.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just me sobbing, crying to my chemical romance, which has been most of my life.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're gonna get a little bit of fussage or you're gonna leave your phone?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna try and get a little bit of pens.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think because it's a theatrical performance, then the B stage, so they're doing a whole other set on another stage.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think I might try.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: But where my tickets are, I don't know if I'm gonna have the chance to even reach my phone because it's gonna be very compact.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just hope it's not as hot as it has been.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's not meant to be, so I'm keeping everything crossed because my word queuing in the day is gonna come horrendous.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But just being, you know, in that squashed air.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be toasty.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: But on a normal day is gonna be hot.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: With my outfit on, yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Very aware.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be very toasty, but it's gonna be wet.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna love it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not the sort of thing that I would sign up for.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: There are not many bands I would do this for.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: My chemical romance is one of them.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're so excited, aren't you?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Show them your nails.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've got, so I need to explain this one because this says MCR and this makes sense.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Banging your mic there.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, says.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right, okay.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: So then for this theatrical thing, uh, they have come up with their own language called Kaposhka.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this says MCR and Kaposhka.
• 4:10
  unknown: Okay.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got a full language.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's a written language.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, right.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when the if they've been flashing things on screen because they've got this whole uh futuristic kind of under a dictatorship theme, and and they're being forced to play as the black parade.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: So they've come up with their own language.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: So on the screens it'll say, like, please remember to have fun, and then in Kaposhka it'll say something completely different, like, if you do not have fun, the dictator will kill you.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's wild.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: So the fans have been learning Kaposhka so we can translate while we're there.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's like really do you know what?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's almost like artsy because it's an immersive experience now.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: It is going to a show anyway is immersive because you're involved in this intimate live performance, all these people's special shared experience.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: But when you can also be involved in the hundred percent, you know, you're participating in the show.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Very clever to do that on stage in such a big They do a lot of stuff like that in this show.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So they do um a public execution.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So on the on the second stage, you've got the main stage and then you've got the B stage.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and they do a vote, you vote, you're given yay or nay cards, and it's like, yes, if you want to like see them executed and shot, and it's all cardboard cutouts and stuff.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and no if you don't, but you have to vote.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: But there was one night they changed it, and I think they were in like Toronto or somewhere, and it was what do we prefer, chicken or fish?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: No, and it was chicken or fish cards.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Just they're just so bizarre.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I just love them so bizarre.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love that though, because showing their personality.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it's fun.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're they're musicians, but they're they're quite fun guys as well, aren't they?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, one of them writes comic books, the singer.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: He does the Umbrella Academy, he writes comic books.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance wrote The Umbrella Academy, it's his.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I didn't know that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love him.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So he's a storyteller, that's what he does.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love that, you know, the the obviously artists.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Musicians are artists, but you know, it goes beyond that, doesn't it?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're all very creative.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Gerard Way was a theatre kid.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's how he got so into this, and then my chemical romance formed uh after the events of 9-11.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Interestingly, they saw they watched 9-11 happen uh and went, you know what, life's too short, we're forming a band, and we're writing about what we've seen what we've been through as a way of processing trauma, and that's how they became a band.
• 6:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Interest there you go, fun fact.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: I love them.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love them.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: With all our new hosts, I learn shit now.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: You've just got an emo who never grew out of the emo phase.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Kev brought us a pride story, didn't he?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: He did.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um Andy has brought us a little story after you bring your story.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm learning things now.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love them.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Previously it was just me like teaching the world.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm learning shit.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: We learn from each other, it's lovely.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's really interesting about that band.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Listen out for all the uh all the shenanigans going on.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'll do.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can't wait.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm excited for, you know.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: I shall update you because the storyline changes every every night, slightly.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if we if we ever do live shows again, so I I will.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: But when, I don't know, you know, fucking hell.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just getting me shit together with this.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do want to do live shows again.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: But what I've said is that you know I do them in like Liverpool, Manchester, travel rounds a little bit, maybe once every two months.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And each show would be completely different.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So people in Liverpool could go to Manchester, see a different show.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it makes it more interesting for us, makes it more interesting for the audience.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody never knows what they're gonna get on this.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, why would you have a show repeated?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Goes completely against what you all love, yeah.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: The unpredictability, and so that's what I'd do.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd do a different show.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's nice that you know, my chemical romance, obviously, their music is the same, but they're bringing other elements into it, you know, they're just absolutely different.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Make it interesting.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're not just tearing up, taking your money doing a gig.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're wanting to put on something that you're gonna remember.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're not messing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen a theatrical production on that scale of uh because there's bands who have done musicals of their their songs, so Green Day did the American Idiot musical, seen that a few times, things like that.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: But my chem art, they are they're not my chemical romance, they are the Black Parade, and they are performing the album in full, but things change so like there's a Piero clown gets involved, at some point someone's on fire, they've got an opera singer that comes out at one point.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's really interesting, but it changes every single night.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: You must be so excited because I don't know what you're gonna get.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, yeah, I don't know what will have changed since the last string of the tour because they've been going backwards and forwards.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: The Kaposhka stuff has has obviously been everywhere and all their promotions.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: They've even re-released songs from an older album, but they've sending out emails like we are never getting out of here and the stuff in Kaposhka, Ranny.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, this is great.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a band that genuinely cares about the fans.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good marking.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And the fan experience.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's been created as something that people are now wanting to invest their time in.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and it will keep them with me.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: I learned the language, I learned Kaposhka.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: You would.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I guess I was.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I would still be on her, he as a because you've got to work out the difference between capital letters and the leather case, and then there's also like T H has its own symbol and G H has its own symbol rather than just a G and a H.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like Greek.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, basically.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: That adds sound.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: It absolutely does, and there's about five different ways to spell that sound.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and also the capital letters sometimes look completely different to the leather case.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: They do.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, very.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited for you.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now that I've heard more about it, I'm like, wow, that sounds really great.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: The creativity gets me.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's the arty, faffy, fun element of it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cannot we?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, you have a fantastic time.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we look forward to hearing all about it, won't we?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right, I'm gonna move on to be thing on to me on this day's because we're a bit off.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um toasty, in it.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wanna get the important stuff that I need to say out now before I just start going.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Fair.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Understandable.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is very warm.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be able to listen fine, but form and words by the end could be hard.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right, so this is going out the 6th of August.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got a couple of things on this day.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they're sort of crime law related.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: One of them I knew an awful lot about, something that I really like.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing, the first one, I knew nothing about.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the thing that happened to this person created a term and it'll all become clear.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So somebody basically vanished.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's been quite a few people, I wasn't over history, loads of people, actually.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Lord Luke and D.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: V.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Cooper, um who else?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Amelia Hart, have they found her now?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know because they were looking into specific things.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But you had, yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: But there's somebody else that's gone missing that we we would not have heard of, I hadn't heard of.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody in America, and maybe some Americans might not have heard of it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: But you will maybe have used a term over in the US and not know that it's come from this.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna tell you more.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a story of a judge.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Judge Joseph Force Crater.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Great name.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Force Crater.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Great name.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think his mum was like, he's destined for big things, and I'd give him a boss name.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's the thing, isn't it?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So Judge Joe.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, sure.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna destroy that now, yeah.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Judge Joe.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So this uh occurred in 1930.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but let's just look at the time around that in America.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he was uh based in New York, very well respected lawyer, originally born in Pennsylvania, worked in in New York, and really, really good reputation.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, very clever attorney, clever with politics and manipulating people he needed to as well.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But he didn't just have political connections, he had uh underworld connections a little bit as well.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So around this time um in in America, especially in New York, it was prohibition time, and in New York at the time, and all the big cities in America, prohibition was basically um causing people to undertake illegal activities to still produce and distribute alcohol to those who needed it right across the country.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And like anything like that, it caused um gangs, gang warfare, all that kind of thing, mob bosses, all that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: All that was going on.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So being an attorney back then was probably pretty difficult.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not a great job.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you're that way inclined, there's probably a few opportunities that might come your way that you might be um interested in, shall we say, if it's got the right price tag.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, very much so.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I'm gonna say about that.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, April 1930, just a few months um before this thing occurred.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: The New York governor at the time, Franklin D.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Roosevelt, yes, the future president, appointed Joe to the state Supreme Court.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is gonna be the career move of his life.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he was thinking as well, then being part of the Supreme Court, he might back away from crime.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe he could help them even more.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whichever way, it was a brilliant career move.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: But nobody realised that it was going to be the beginning of one of America's biggest mysteries.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward to August 1930.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Joe, Crater, had been staying at his holiday cabin in Maine with his wife, Stella.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Everything seemed fine, everything seemed normal, nothing unusual was going on.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then Wednesday the 6th of August, um, Crater had spent the day doing other odd things that you wouldn't normally do while you were away.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And just he had to visit the office.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when he got to his office, um, his wife just noticed that just he was behaving a bit hard.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And gave it to the office where he was supposed to be hard at.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: So he said to the clerk, gather up all these files, gave them a load of files.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not as any files, specific files.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: These are related to Casey he'd worked on since he'd be become a judge.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: He went through them and he took some away and he destroyed others.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows exactly what was in these papers.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was unusual behaviour for him.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So this wasn't somebody clearing out his desk before he retired.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: This was uh somebody who wanted to make certain documents disappear because now he had a job that you wanted to keep interesting.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, he also cashed two cheques worth over$5,000.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now,$5,000 is a lot to me, but to you out there, maybe not a lot.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But today's equivalent is about$90,000.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he did that as well around this time.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So removing files, destroying paperwork, withdrawing huge amounts of cash.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: What was he doing?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: What was he thinking?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Was he gonna run off?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: What was gonna happen?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: That evening things become much clearer around 6 pm.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy met with two friends.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: One was a lawyer called William Klein, and the other was Sally Lou Ritz, and she was a Broadway showgirl.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: He was married.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: But don't read too much into that because actually around that time, um, people, you know, lawyers, uh attorneys, sorry, police and that would often mingle actually with, you know, showgirls, showmen, all that.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Theatre people in general, you know, everything mingled in the same places.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, the three of them had dinner at a famous place called the Manhattan Restaurant in Manhattan called Billy Haas Chop House.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And by all accounts, Crater in a really good mood at this point.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: He did nothing that was unusual.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't look like a man who was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about to leg it with me.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Five grand.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, he laughed, joked as normal.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Seeing completely normal.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: After that, he went to see a comedy musical.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: He enjoyed it.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: The show finished, the three went outside, Crater got in a taxi.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: He waved goodbye, he climbed in, and that was the last confirmed sighting of Judge Joseph Force Crater.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: At first, nobody panicked.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: He was a judge.
• 16:26
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Busy people, busy times.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes he goes off for a couple of days, things happen.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wife assumed he was working, he was a sort of guy who just like, you know, nipped back to the office or what kind of thing.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Friends thought maybe he was away, or you know, nobody really.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the friends didn't go, I'm gonna call his wife and see where he is, or maybe just away again.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: He just just didn't think out of it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, he disappeared.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knew where he went.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody mad.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, his belongings he had with him.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing was found.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: What had gone on?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So weird.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: There was an allegation that there was corruption, like we've just said, that Crazy would be an accept and bribed.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ps.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so um fingers and eyes were starting to point towards the underworld, the mafia.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Had they done something to him.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's other rumours.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: He really enjoyed New York nightlife.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: He'd been seen out with his showgirl.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Did he have maybe another woman on the side?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: He often frequented speakeasies, nightclubs, all that kind of thing.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe just run off with another woman.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: We just I don't know what happened to her.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: He just disappeared.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, perhaps on the strangest part of this, in 1955, so what was that, 25 years later, a woman called Grace Quinn allegedly confessed on her deathbed that her husband, a New York cop, had helped dispose of Kraser's body.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: According to her, Craig had been murdered by gangsters and a mafioso.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Quite common.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And his body had been buried beneath the floor of a dance nightclub.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And she was very specific.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Investigators went, they dug, they searched, no remains.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: How insane.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't know whether that was just maybe her, you know, delirious at the end of her life.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: When her body was moved, maybe, maybe she got the premises wrong.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't know.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love a mystery like that.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: So this became one of the biggest missing person investigations America had ever seen.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thousands upon thousands of people interviewed.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, remember he'd just been promoted as an advantage to that role.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this was a very high-profile man who disappears without a trace.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hundreds of detectives worked the case.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Taxi drivers were questioned, trying to find a taxi driver that had taken him off.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hotels were searched, hospitals were checked, rivers were dredged, everything.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's just nothing, no body, no luggage, no belongings, nothing.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: He was never ever seen again.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think happened to this guy?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think based on what I know about this time, um, and that I know he was involved in, you know, the underworld.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe he's and also he's destroying files.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's fallen upon something that he shouldn't have.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And they've got him.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: They've got him.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he I think he's destroyed the files.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Look, guys, I haven't got any more of the gone, stone.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you know.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's in your idea, you could say something.
• 19:29
  unknown: Exactly.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Concrete shoes and all that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of theories over the years.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Some insisted that he'd fled to Europe, some thought he started a new life in South America, others believed he committed suicide because there was you know maybe pressure on him.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Other newspapers that claimed he'd joined a monastery.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they just don't know.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Anything and everything.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, nowadays, if this happened, we'd have CCTV, everyone's got the mobile phones, house, all that kind of thing.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: But in 1930, none of that existed.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody wanted to disappear, or somebody wanted to disappear you, it was very easy to do.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And here we are, nearly a hundred years later.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Fascinating.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we've never ever found out what happened to Judge Crater.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: The little phrase that Americans sometimes use is uh they pulled a crater when somebody's disappeared without warning.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: How interesting is that.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you've got a friend, you're like cloned, well, they've they've pulled a crater.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's mad.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's where it comes from.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Judge Joseph Force Crater.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Great name.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: What a name.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: So stuff's really interesting.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: I because when I found out that's where money laundering came from, that blew my head.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love it all.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's fascinating.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I started getting interested in it all after I watched a film called The Cotton Club, which came out when I was about 16.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's put it this way, Richard Gier was only about 21.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he was beautiful.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Handsome man.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the other guy that I can't stand.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've had a right go on on the podcast over him, the actor, who's always looks the same, miserable fucking gob.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: It'll come to me.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: It'll come to me.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Bring it's working.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's Friday.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's in it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all about um mob bosses and everything around that time.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know loads about it until I watched that, and then I took it upon myself to read all about it.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And funny enough, funny that you should mention it, I am now going to talk about one of the most famous mob bosses.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh called Dutch Schultz.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of him?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my mum and dad are really into mafia history, so yeah.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Dutch Schutz.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Only no bits.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in the Cotton Club, just Dutch the Dutchman, um, he was probably one of the main, main characters in it.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm going to tell you a little bit about him.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the car the guy that played Dutch, have knowing what I know about him, I've never ever seen any play a character so accurately ever.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you why as I as I as I read through.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll come across.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, on the 6th of August in 1902, this is when Dutch Schultz was born.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't realise he was so young when he died.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I know loads about you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, because he's done so well did so much in his life.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like he was around for 50-60 years.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Smart, isn't it?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he wasn't, he died at 33.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Bloody hell.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So let me tell you a little bit about the Dutchman.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of my favourite mob bosses in the 1920s prohibition.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, hit me with it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So even though his name was Dutch, uh, he actually wasn't Dutch.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he was born Arthur Simon Fliegenheimer.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I say, on the 6th of August.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So where does Dutch come from from that name?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: He was born in the Bronx as well.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: He must be even born in Holland or anything.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: But he was born to a German Jewish immigrant family.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And back then Americans often referred to Germans as Dutch.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Shortening of Deutsch.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So he became the Dutchman.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Makes sense.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: His friend in school called him Dutch, and he became the Dutchman when he was elder.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And his childhood was not a happy one.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: His father abandoned him when he was young.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: His mother tried to raise him alone.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not not I'm not saying not very good.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: She just didn't have the means.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So money was tight and all that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And by his early teens, obviously, he was causing all kinds of trouble, getting into trouble because he didn't have a father to put him straight.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: His mum was probably working loads of jobs to keep you know the lights up.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Different to petty crime, then burglary, and then organised crime.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, like a lot of young men back then, he just fell into it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe he had to.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: His friends were, and sometimes, from what I've read, it was almost survival.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a young, fit man, why aren't you into this?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's potential here.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Come and join, we'll protect you.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'll protect you and make some level of money from this.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was it it makes sense.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was a perfect time to be a criminal as well, back in the 1920s.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, prohibition bans alcohol right across uh the United States.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: It creates a huge black market opportunity.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, Dutch himself, no father, mum, single mum, not a lot of money.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got prohibition, this is a big opportunity.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't you be part of it?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: It makes complete sense, doesn't it?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, gangsters supplied illegal alcohol, but they protect the territory with violence.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: He bribed police officers, judges, politicians, made a fortune from it.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Dutch quickly proved that he was not afraid of anybody, actually, on any kind of intimidation.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Fair quite whatsoever.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: He specialised in beer running, uh, so controlling beer breweries and distribution around the Bronx and stuff.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody refused to buy from him, the windows would get smashed in.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't no was not an answer where the Dutchman was concerned.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was always yes.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the way he operated, he he became he came across as one of the more polished mafia bosses, um, but he had a temper.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why um the Cotton Club really did this justice.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because the Dutchman, he was he actually he laughed and joked quite a lot.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was quite shrewd but not clever.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he wasn't like highly educated, but he was educated in what he needed to be to experience and exposure.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: So he was shrewd more than anything, and he could communicate with his equals, his peers, but his temperature and his temperature, his temper switched like that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: So he could be nice as pie, laughing and joking, stab you in the neck with a fork the next.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly the way the judge man was.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy who played him on The Cotton Club got him down perfectly.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't believe it.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was brilliant.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Fair play.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, years passed, and um alcohol, even though um it was still illegal, lots and lots of people were into um you know supplying alcohol.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard the numbers racket?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the Dutch was heavily, heavily involved in the numbers racket.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And people have heard the term often, but they don't know what it is, and often you don't know what it is.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was an illegal lottery.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was huge at the time.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: People were placed tiny bets, but these tiny bets across a massive city, yeah, they soon mounted up, and it generated millions of dollars, and the Dutchman built an empire around it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So he moved from bootleg booze to numbers, the numbers racket.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and by the early 1930s, it's said that he was earning what would be now tens of millions of pounds a year.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Fair play.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: But enough to make you a target, enough to need to protect yourself.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bodyguards, a whole team around him, always looking over his shoulder.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's I think it's quite a hard life.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can have all the money in the world, but you can actually live freely and spend it.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, like I said before, this amount of money and and his success attracted attention, not just from rival gangsters, the government.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a guy called Thomas E.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Dewey, and he was a young, ambitious prosecutor, and he'd made it his mission to bring down organised crime.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And Dutch Schultz hated him because he was bringing down all of his peers, basically one by one.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he became obsessed with the idea that this guy Dewey wasn't just investigating him, he was personally trying to destroy him.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think he was right, actually, because the Dutch had uh he had a figure a lot of pies.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was one of the main reasons the city was going to the dogs, basically, him and a lot of other gangsters Al Capone.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Schultz was eventually put on trial for tax evasion because that was the easiest thing to get gankers on at the time.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't get them for um drink um you know and the prohibition side of things or for the numbers, it was tax evasion.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: All that amount of money going through, and you're not paying enough tax.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: They got Al Capone the same way.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they did.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's one way to get them inside.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: However, Dutch insisted he was innocent and his lawyers worked tirelessly and incredibly got him acquitted.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Bloody hell! Yep, and many believed that witness intimidation played a part in the world.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's how he rolled.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, what happened next?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Dewey wasn't going to stop.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: He was determined.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: The Dutch decided the solution wasn't to beat Jewie in court, it was to kill him.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um Dutch basically wanted to assassinate the prosecutor before another trial could be.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: He thought it was practical, although gangsters thought he was mad.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you do that?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a target on your back now, you'll certainly have a target, a federal target on your back after that.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I'm not going to go into loads and loads and loads and loads of detail, but there's this thing called the commission.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like a board of directors for the mafia, and the Dutchman was starting to go against what they wanted.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a code that you followed and you didn't break it, and he was starting to break it.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this code was in place so everybody kept making money.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was looked after.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: But Dutch became greedy and wanted more.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted to own the numbers racket.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: As happens.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously the commission were like, no.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And also they were like, you're not killing that guy either.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Dutch did not want to be told no.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Ever.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he saw red.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: He never took rejection very well at all.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that, the commission decided the Dutch had to go.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't the government, it wasn't the police that killed him.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was his peers.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: The commission ordered his death.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: He had to go.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And on the evening of the 23rd of October 1935, Dutch was relaxed in the back room of the Palace Chop House restaurant in Newark, New Jersey.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: With several trusted associates.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Very relaxed.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't suspect anything.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: They were eating, talking, all that.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Gobman walked through the door without warning, opened fire several times on the whole group.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And shot most of them dead.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now a lot of accounts about the Dutchman, I know this, say that he died on the spot.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: He actually didn't.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't die on the spot.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: He was shot multiple times, multiple, but he was still alive, barely.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: But he was still alive.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Rushed to hospital where doctors desperately tried to save him, which I'm very surprised about, but the accounts are there.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And for nearly 24 hours he survived talking gibberish.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: But some believe that maybe his final words were maybe random, random thought or code.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And there's still people to this day who still think that he was talking code because Dutch apparently left a hidden stash of money and goods in a location because nobody trusted the banks.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of his wealth was stored, stashed, buried.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they reckon it in his gibberish, he was trying to tell people where it was.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: But they've never ever found it.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: They've tried to look and they've never ever found his stash.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: If there ever was one.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: If there ever cap all over again.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I almost tell that story at least once a month to people that come visit here.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's so so so interesting.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we've never found the um the treasure.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Dutch died.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the numbers racket carried on, and so did organised crime.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it did.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, Dutch was only 33.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's mad enough.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: When you think of what he did in that time, he obviously started his criminal career really young because you know with petty theft and all the rest of it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: But he took over the whole um bootleg and numbers racket.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just about.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just about.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's lucky Luciano as well.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was around and about.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was involved in numbers rackets.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Capone was involved in numbers racket.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: But Dutch was positioning himself to be and was a takeover the numbers racket completely.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just love this whole time.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't, would I want to be alive then?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I probably wouldn't have lived very long.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: I probably would have been involved in something, you know.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I'd have out of concrete shoes.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably, you know.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I don't know, it just seemed to be a bit more life on the edge, a bit more adventurous back then.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you had to live a different way to get by.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I just find it all really interesting.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I just saw another Dutch.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Just love the Dutch one, very, very good.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And just to go full circle moment, my chemical romance are from Newark, New Jersey.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: No! They are, yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: No way! Full circle.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've just read something there about the judge.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he was eating in a chop house.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Ah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same chop house, but he was eating the famous Manhattan restaurant, the Billy Haas Chop House.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the Dutch was shot in a chop house as well.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's so interesting.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh it's down there now, I can't.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, sorry, I'll take the back of the yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same one, I don't think.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I meant to check this now, folks.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really sorry.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be like pecking my brain.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, the palace chop house.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: How map's that there, Jupiter?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's pretty map, I don't know.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there you go.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Something needs to be.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Dutchman and Judge Joe.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: They are both fascinating.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Both missing, dead, whatever.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever happened there.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever happened there.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what happened there.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: But there you go.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: How interesting.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Paul's a crater.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard that before.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: No?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can we start using it?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, so there we have that.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna pass straight over to you because apparently you've got a segment for a second.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: We have got a segment.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: We're back to a bad bitch of history.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because we haven't done a bad bitch for a while.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't, no.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, we did my last ones with Michelangelo and the Minoans.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's right, yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to talk about one of my favourite Merseyside women that has ever, ever, ever lived.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: She was incredible and I'm really passionate about it.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, love you though.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: But this woman is known as the Saint of the Slums.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard a little bit about this lady, but I don't know everything.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: She was amazing.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: She was absolutely amazing.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Her name was Kitty Wilkinson.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: So Kitty was born in Ireland.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: She was born in Denny.
• 34:12
  unknown: Yeah, okay.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she came over when she was really, really young.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: She was a child.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: She came over with her mum and her family.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Most of them died on the boat over.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: So bit of a nightmare from the show.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: But she did manage to get over it with her mum and I think one of her siblings as well.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like her dad's gone at this point.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Her mum was a lace maker.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: So Irish lace, beautiful.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: You see lace being made as well to make it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I make lace, I can bobbin with.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you fucking wood with that.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: I taught myself how to do it because I can knit, I can crochet.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, what's next?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Bought myself some bobbins, made a little bookmark.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Of course she does.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't think I've ever made because it took me too long, but I did it on bonfire night because I was calming my cat down and she likes the bobbins.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh may and Sayland lace.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the family came over in February of 1794.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: So she was only nine at the time.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Bless her.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, severe storm.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the ship was not having a good time.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Her dad and a younger sister died, leaving her mum to arrive in Liverpool with just her and her brother.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: So bit of a nightmare time for her.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: At 12, she then goes to work in a cotton mill in Lancashire.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: So she works there for a little while, but then she quite quickly returns to Liverpool to go and help with her mum.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: So her mum was just like a cleaner, like a domestic worker, they called it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: So doing a bit of everything, all the bits and bobs, all the cleaning, that kind of thing.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: And Kitty really kind of learns her craft there.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll get on to what she actually went to do.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: So she then married a sailor called Emmanuel DeMonte.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Great name.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic name.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I know it had a gorgeous name.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love this.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: However, she does have two kids with him.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then he dies at sea.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: She's not having a good time with the sea people.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'd stay away from water.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, literally, literally get away from it.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: So after this, she then goes back to being a domestic servant because she took time off to have the kids, as they did in the day.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: They were like stay-at-home mums at that point.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Then in the early 1820s, she's gifted a mangle.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: What a gift.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: What a gift, everyone.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: So she becomes a laundress.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Then a couple of years later, she goes on to marry a guy called Thomas Wilkinson.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, where we get the name.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Kitty Wilkinson.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: She was Catherine Seawitt beforehand.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: So then in 1832, cholera breaks out in Liverpool.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Cholera, horrible, horrible things.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: And once it sweeps through people, it goes to bloody everyone.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's horrific.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: But Kitty's got the only boiler in Air Street.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: So what she does, she understands from being a laundress, clothes can carry disease.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: So she starts washing people's clothes.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: A pound a week, she charged.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for the poor people, she would also have space for poor people to come and just do it for nothing.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: She then taught people how to wash themselves.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: We're thinking Liverpool's a really poor area at the time.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's not like a thriving city like it is.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Liverpool was for the poor people.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: And Kitty was very much one of them.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: She just had the privilege of having a boiler and a good enough heart to go, come on, we we can kill this off kind of thing.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what area of Liverpool she was in?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Off the top of my head, I haven't got a bloody clue because I'm sure she lived in a couple of different areas.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because the poorer parts of Liverpool were closer to the river.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the closer the river you get, the poorer it is.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm I've heard the name, you know.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting Everson.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I've asked.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Fair Everson.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like loads of slums around Everton and Fields.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: She was in the really, really poor areas, yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: So she's there, she is cleaning people's clothes and things, and people are like, oh, people are living more, but a lot of people are still dying, yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is still sweeping through people.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: So loads and loads of kids are now orphans, so she's teaching them how to wash so that they can teach other people how to wash while realising boiling the clothes is is what is gonna help.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: She ends up adopting 15 of these orphans.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's mad.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: She is mad, but what an amazing lady.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Mad.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: She is nuts.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: She was absolutely wild.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's more superlatives that I can come up with to describe somebody who chooses to take 15 children.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: But right now that superlative's not coming, so mad.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty insane.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have to do.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely valid.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: 15 uh 15 airs.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Nope, not airs, but they were orphans.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: She was teaching them.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, Do you know what?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: We'll give them a home.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Crazy lady.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: How big was this house?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, she then goes to the Lord Mayor of Liverpool at the time and says, Look, you need to open public bathhouses.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: This will stop the spread of cholera.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna help people.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Amazingly, he listens.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Amazingly.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: They opened it.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is just some woman.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: He listens to her.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: What impact must this woman have had on her local little area?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Just to be in uh a force of nature, I think, to go in there anywhere as a woman, speaking to the lower bird.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: At that time, early 1800s are you, Master.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And being assertive enough to put a point across enough to change, you know, to win a.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: To make this impact?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely insane.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yes, they then go and open the public bath so the poor can bathe so they didn't have to pay.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: What a woman! What an incredible woman.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Then in 1846, the mayor presented her with a silver teapot from Queen Victoria.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it says the Queen, the Queen Dowager and the Ladies of Liverpool to Catherine Wilkinson.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Insane.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: The more I learned about her, the more interesting she was getting.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know where the bathhouse was?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um again.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know this.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: I I know about her, I don't know where the places were.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where the found because there's I think there's probably bathhouses everywhere.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be able to do that.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm assuming there will be.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, she went on to live a really, really interesting life.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: So what the reckon, the statistic, the reckon, is about, I'm sure it's about a third of all families in Liverpool, and it in knock-on effect into the whirl as well, um, would have died without her.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because the impact of cholera was that severe on the city, people would have just died left, right, and centre.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: So families that have lived here for years wouldn't have lived through it.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, all the generations that have been given.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm saying.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Millions of people, really.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm saying.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, what year was this?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the cholera outbreak was 1832.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really, really uh rascal for her to come up with washing and washing bodies.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, you might think of like Florence Nightingale and like I can't remember who the doctor was now.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um the guy who was talking about hand washing before surgery.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: German doctor that that was that was later on.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: So for her, an uneducated woman from Ireland, living in the slums, yeah, basically a laundress, has figured out that good hygiene is probably gonna help you live longer.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then had the balls to go and tell Lamerne and win him over.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And she did.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: So she's a well, honorary scouser, brought up on her pool.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think they've been brought up under the pool for spills of strong stuff.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, especially the scouse women, assertive, so assertive, and I love that.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's part of who we are.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: I used to say bolshy, and then my therapist told me, No, you're not bolshy, you're assertive, so I used that word now.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but very, very interestingly.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we still celebrate her, no, yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so she is the only woman in St.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: George's Hall that has a statue.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: The one and all the rest of men.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't name a single one of them.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're about to St.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: George's Hall.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: She's inside in the main hall.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is she?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: They've got a statue to her, she is the only woman in that building.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a statue?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because she's so important to us.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: She's also buried behind the Anglican Cathedral in like the most gorgeous spot.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've been to see her.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I go, I just stop and I chill with Kitty for a bit.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: She lived to be 73.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: At that time.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Just for washing clothes and washing her body.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Tell ya, being a bit clean.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Does the world a good day?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Swill your minge and wash your fish.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: 73 at that time, 1800s.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: That was a grand old age.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't bloody live that long.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Very grand old age.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's insane.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: What a woman.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And still now we call it the Saint of the Slums in the Cathedral.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've seen the woman's window.
• 42:21
  unknown: No.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you go down, it's called the Lady Chapel.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: I like them because they're pretty.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: I the religious aspect does nothing for me, but they're pretty buildings, and I'll go and see them.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: The Anglican's nice.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: So in the Lady Chapel in the Anglican, you go down and it shows different women of Liverpool history.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll be really honest, my bad, I don't know.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Most of them, sorry, Andy, I've just realised I've said my bad.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Ums.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but Kitty is on there as a tribute to that.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: She is basically immortalised there.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um and there's a space at the bottom, and when you do tours, you can do tours of the cathedral, and it's really interesting.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's sharks in the cathedral and everything.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Very exciting.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we'll come back to that in a sec.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: But there's an empty spot at the bottom, and the whole point is could that be reserved for you?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Be a cool person, go and make a difference to people's lives.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: You could end up there.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: You make a difference to your lives.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do I deserve a spot in the cathedral?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe not the cathedral.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not the cathedral.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: We'll find we'll find a cool window for you.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, not the cathedral.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, somewhere.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Somewhere, sure.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, could it be you?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: What's the point of it?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, the sharks in the cathedral, the guy who made the stained glass for it.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Really like sharks and just kept putting sharks in.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: I just love little fun facts like that.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: And fully useless information.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Kennedy's Kitty Wilkinson.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Kitty Wilkinson, you can come and say hello.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: So when I did I I took a tour to the cathedral for when I do some of my tour guiding bits and bobs, um, and I made everyone say thank you to Kitty.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because most of them there are from there.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, everyone say thank you, Kitty.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Kitty.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because some of them might not have been here without her.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some of them like they're not from the area but have moved to the area, um, but they've got partners who are from Area, so they were like thanking on their partner's behalf and stuff.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: People leave flowers for her.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: I always go and say hello if I'm in the area.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh loves that.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just love her.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank Joe.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: What a woman.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because that was very selfish, selfless of her.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Not selfish, Jesus.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Forward thinking.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: How did she work that out?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: What an amazing woman.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't understand.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe she's she did laundry for people who are more well off, obviously, as well.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe she's thinking, well, you know, why aren't they ill?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't they getting it?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they living longer?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why are my neighbours getting it?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was worth a try.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Fair play to the woman.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: She worked it out.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: And she saved people.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: What an amazing leader.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love the Liverpool as well.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: I love her.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Boss.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: Boss.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need to go to the cemetery now at the Anglican Cathedral.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Go look at her grave and see that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Last time I went to the Angerkin Cathedral, um, I was performing.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was performing on stage with a big Baroque brass band.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Playing French horn.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd lead French horn as well.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: The first French horn hadn't turned up, she wasn't well.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, fucking, good job.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'd learned the first French horns how to do solos and everything.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Bloody echoes all around the place.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember playing this solo thinking to myself, this sounds fucking boss.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: This I surprised myself because it wasn't doing my part.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, this sounds pretty good.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's making me sound great.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love the Anglican.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: It is a beautiful building.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: I went as an art student and we'd have to like walk around and we'd have like 10 minutes in a spot and sketch little bits around.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: We did that in Live Street Station as well.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: That was fabulous.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I also went there with REF Cadets.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um when the Queen came to Liverpool and uh we had to go and do the I used to be in the Air Cadets.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Did you?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: What squadron were you?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: 1175 Brenton.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was 1966 Waiver Chief Squadron.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there you go.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Flight Son of the Yeah.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: I got to corporal and gave up.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was drill summargent and then flight sun.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my little flight.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was on the drill squad.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um I didn't have to I have to go into the REF.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, Cathedral.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Cathedral.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I had to go into in my dress uniform to go to see the Queen.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we didn't have our normal shirt.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: We had jackets jackets and stripes and everything on them.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Gorgeous.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: And Bugalia as well.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a blue a bugleer thing on mine.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was fabulous.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was the bugalier for remembering Sunday.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Check you.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's unreal.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love the the weirdest birthday I've ever had was in the cathedral.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it was it was a Monday and I forgot the museums are all closed on a Monday.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: So poddled over.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, this is delightful.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's closed.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, I'm gonna sulk.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: We'll go to the cathedral because it's pretty.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: So me and my mum and dad woke up to the cathedral, bunch of old ladies sitting there crocheting.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Can I join in?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, here's a hook, here's some wolk.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: Me and these little old ladies making little squares, gorgeous, had a fabulous day.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Did you go in the cathedral?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a inside the cathedral.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're just like having like a knit and that in there.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, honestly, so you go in and they were literally just sat there by the uh like a little bit further in from the Tracy Emmin illumination thing.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, they were just sitting there crocheting.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Can I join?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fine.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um I love crocheting.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've done a farmer circle of little old ladies who want to talk to me about crocheting, like, oh, you crochet fast.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I know, thank you.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: I love this for me.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm making me Halloween jumper at the minute, and I don't know why in this heat, but I've already started work on it and very excited.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is it gonna be design on it?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's gonna be I don't know if I want to surprise.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna spoil too much because I'm doing surface crochet, okay, which is a little bit different because you go in and it's like actually like embroidering it, but with crochet.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's pumpkin orange, the shade is pumpkin.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's gonna be like a yellow band here for like that, you know, like on a Christmas jumper where you get that little yeah, and then I'm gonna surface crochet things into it.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Nice spooky all year, but it is about a billion degrees, and I'm crocheting a woolly jumper.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it is.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: What a film.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, ooh.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can make this jumper because it's my pattern, I can make it in like two days.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: But like, I don't need to.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: If I just take my time and ready then.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you might come up with another pattern in the meantime.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Excited.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: You have a choice for the Halloween jumpers.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So let's move on, haven't we?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I have got a Lady Lobosomy for you.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love a Lady Lobotomy.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um you might be able to help with this one.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is a lady.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, this is a lady.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, dear Lady Lobotomy.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: I recently decided it was time I went to a munch.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was at my local club and purely social.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was great.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: I got chatting to lots of people and gathered their Fat Life profile names, intended on making contact at a later date.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: When I got home, I had a message off a guy who I hadn't chatted to at all, and he was coming on really strong.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: He must have been in the area when I shared my Fat Life details and took note, which is weird.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I gather it was like a new ish because she's brand new, so I don't think you know anyone just find her.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's been making demands, once an online submission from me and using trigger and sexual language.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm now afraid to go to the munch or anywhere again in case this man is there.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm new and really don't know how to deal with these things.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: So any advice would be appreciated.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for reading, Katrine.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: So she's been to a munch, she had a lovely time, met loads of great people, exchanged fat life names.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody by the sounds of it is overheard.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: And before she's even got home, she's got a message in an inbox.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wild.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: From a weirdo who's demanding a submission online and making lurid comments.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: And she doesn't appreciate her.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not even a high hello, probably.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Did she say it was a man that was making these comments?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Tell him to get in the bin, first and foremost.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: Block him.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: Report him to if he's a regular at the munches.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Make make someone aware.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: If there's a problem, make someone aware.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um definitely the munch organisers.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: 100% contact the munch organisers and give them his FatLife username.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, people can just they can have several user names.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: But at least if you highlight it, somebody at the munch on the night might go, oh yeah, I remember that guy.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: And look out for him.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Report him to Fat Life.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, um, that is what you would all do, but as soon as I got this, I'm a moderator.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a moderator on Fat Life.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean you can contact me directly to do shit because I don't do that.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: You go through the report and somebody gets it.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I have dealt with this.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you report to Fat Life, and if they think that there's somebody who's being predatorial, which this person is, then they'll have them removed or banned or whatever.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so going back to that, this is absolutely predatorial behaviour.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this guy has gone to the munch and not even spoken to you.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's looked for an opportunity to gain details, to contact you without any kind of conversation, consent, anything.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he's he's making demands without even making any kind of niceties, it's totally gross.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you didn't do anything about it, he would just carry on.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you blocked him, he'd carry on to the next person.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to say we've got a duty of care, but almost we've got a duty of care because within our community, we self-police, we look after ourselves.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's somebody who is flagged for whatever reason, it's our duty to protect the rest of the community and share that information that we know so other people are also aware.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um on Fat Life, you can't name and shame, so don't do that.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: You will get yourself reported and you know a suspension for it.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you can maybe highlight that.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a munch recently and somebody's overheard my conversation.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Contact me afterwards, so just be aware of who's around you, yeah, maybe.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'd definitely start off with that protect yourself and protect protect the community.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Replying to this guy, um, when I've obviously had a conversation about this before, and this person did contact the guy, the guy was relentless, he was disgusted.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so this person, she did contact him.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, don't even contact them.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Don't reply, don't bother.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: See the message, report, block.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and don't feed the beast.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they want.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you give them a fuck off, that is wank fodder.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's something, even if it's not wank fodder, it's worse than that.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's something you've given them an in, you've given them an acknowledgement.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do it.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ignore.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: But this person then knew she didn't know what to do, and so she went back and went, Please don't do that, even though you are, didn't see you, and all the rest of it.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he was making suggestive marks and like remarks like I was watching you as you were walking out and shit like that.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, this has been dealt with now because obviously I'm on I'm on fat life, and we're looking out for any other profiles that might pop up.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we've also suggested that this person go to the police because he was relentless.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: So on your side of things, if you did if you block them, that's it.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's all you need to do.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: End of story, forget about it, carry on with your kinky journey.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because Katrine had actually carried on and the guy had responded, we had enough then.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um she went to the police.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's gonna happen now.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm sort of out of it a little bit now, she's dealing with it.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, if you've got evidence of harassment, predatorial behaviour, red flags that are actually a danger to not just you but the wider community.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: Even if the police don't think there's a crime, they can you they can do something about it, what they'll do is they'll log it.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they do.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's really important of any incident at all, not even in BDSM, report it with the police.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a log.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is it 111 or 101 that you call?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: 111.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: 101 or 111.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a non-emergency police line, and you can report an incident.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: They don't do anything about it, they log it.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if somebody else makes a report, then they can act.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: They can make the connection.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: If several people make the report, they've got a case.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I know it's a pain in the arse, but it's it's really important for your I think to draw a line, but also to protect everybody else, and maybe even get this person done for it.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're part of a bigger picture.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'd suggest.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I want to get from this is also a munch is probably one of your safest places that you can go to because most people are vetted or they know each other or they've been invited, or is it a public place?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you generally don't get any trouble in kink venues or munches, but like any group out there, there's always somebody who is looking for an opportunity, and yeah, somebody'd be a crochet group out there, sissy, where there's somebody who's looking to take advantage, I don't even mean in a sexual way, in a monetary way, or take advantage of emotions.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's people out there who will use you if they feel they can.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to scare anybody because a munch I keep saying, go to a munch if you're new, because it really is safe.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, she had a great time at the munch.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: She said it was great.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: She met some great people, but there just happened to be another bad egg.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: He might have even been part of the munch because it's a public venue.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're all just standing around having drinks.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the munches alike, they don't want to draw attention to themselves, they're just having a drink with the mates.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: This guy might have gone on to it.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm on Fat Life, she's a bit pretty.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it, they are safe.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't be deterred.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, if you do get this sort of behaviour online, especially on Fat Life, now you know what to do.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I've brought it up.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've already dealt with this with Katrine.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's fine now, you know, and the police have been involved.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I brought it to your attention so you all know what to do when you're online, especially on Fat Life.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Felt like a pretty quick actually at dealing with things like this.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, trust them.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know some forums aren't so great out there, but FatLife are.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just give a really quick piece of advice of someone who has reported someone to the police for just gross behaviour?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so this was done through Instagram, and I had reported him he um there were there was stalking behaviours, um, and so I reported it to the police, but because I had replied to him twice, they didn't want to do anything about it and was like, oh well, if he comes and gets you, that's your fault.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just just block him and see what happens.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: So do not reply to these people if they are gross for your own safety.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do not that that's a sissy Wednesday warning.
• 56:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Don't do it, it's not worth it.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Not worth it.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I love a bit of um back and forth, like like the best of us.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: I am not violent in the normal sense, obviously, with consent.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I've got the sharpest tongue.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I really, really have.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I often reach the keyboard when I get these things, and I just go, It's not worth it.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not worth it.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not worth it.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I could take them down like that.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not it's not worth your brain space.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I having these arguments and discussions with people?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not gonna listen to you.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to want them in brain.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, not worth your brain space.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: So there's the advice.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: So there you go.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for that.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right then.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna finish on a fetish five.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: I love these.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: I learn so much.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: So do you know?
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: The muffin man?
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that fella.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: That one.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Think that they were actually I think you need to know him by now.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about him and.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: So sorry, I've just punched your microphone.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that excited about the muffin man?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: You will know what this is, but it's got a name.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Jenny Torture is.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: Jenny Torture?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know what torture is.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Can't work it out.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: Jenny.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Jenny?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: My see, I've got a stupid brain, and my stupid brain goes to Jenny Greenteeth.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: You've got you've got a fabulous brain.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's the thing, the fabulous brain goes in all the wrong places.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because I go to Jenny Greenteeth, the mythological English folklore.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm useless.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much more simple than that.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: One genital torture.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, for God's sake.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an idiot.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do every time.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: Jenny torture.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Genital torture.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing mythological about it at all.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I talked about CBT before, cockle ball torture.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't talked about female genital torture.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I've kept away from it because of FGM.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Female genital mutilation.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: Completely different subject altogether.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a paper on it years ago when I was a student midwife.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's something that I know an awful lot about.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that I don't really want to talk about on here.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's just I just didn't even want to give it any uh space.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's terrific.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you know it's we should talk about these things, enough people talk about them.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that if I start talking about it, I'm gonna get angry.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm probably gonna get offensive.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of people who have been through it that talk about it, and they are probably well more versed than anyone that I can think of.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you've seen it firsthand and you see the family, and that fucking grandmother's gonna sew her back up again afterwards.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: I get ya.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Awful.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't I don't ever want to talk about FGM in detail because I'll be I'll be offensive to somebody.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, but genital torture does not involve slicing bits off.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the biggest difference.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have the reason I'm saying it, I have over the years heard, especially male dominants, calling female genital torture mutilation.
• 59:57
  unknown: No.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not mutilation, and I've had to say, you know, I know it didn't mean it, but please don't call it that for this reason.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's torture.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean slicing things off.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it means doing mean but often pleasurable things to flaps and fannies in general.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like people who like putting tiger balm on it.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard that, that's quite common, isn't it?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: Deep um deep, yeah, all that kind of thing.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've done labial suturing.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um with cunt beads.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're all sorts of different things, really.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: You've done loads of needles on flaps.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're just really good because they're just like fleshy things, they did eat to put needles to.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, genital torture though, why do women enjoy genital torture?
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about when you're aroused, your your fandango in general becomes red and swollen.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Engorged, we call it admittedly.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: But red and swollen, when you're um when you're pleasured, because all the blood rushes to that part of the body, it becomes hot, swollen, sensitive, hypersensitive.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: So by doing things to that area to make it swollen, hot, you're gonna make it sensitive.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: And some people like the idea of having that area tortured for lots of different kinky reasons, which I'm gonna go into now.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, why do people enjoy us?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: The volve, it contains lots of nerve endons.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we know this.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: I might swollen up.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Those nerve endons are really, really, really sensitive.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: That area can combine a mix of pain, pleasure, anticipation, yeah, wetness.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: You with me?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and some people find the mental anticipation more intense than the stimulation itself.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, not just BDSM here, dirty talk in the run-up to a sexual encounter.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you've ever had dirty talk, you know, like when I get home later, there's gonna be X, Y, and Z, or you look gorgeous in that thing.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Put it on next time I see you and I'll destroy you, that kind of thing, yeah.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: But in a BDSM kind of way, um, you know what's coming, you know, you've maybe talked about it, you've consented for it, you might have been shown some of the things that are gonna be used on you.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you get the same anticipation.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be sexual for everybody, but actually, I would argue that most people, I don't I couldn't have put a figure on it, that into female genital torture are probably gonna get sexual pleasure from it as well.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas some guys don't get sexual pleasure, it's a degradation thing with them.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't really get degradation with this with females.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not really.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Different types of genital torture, gentle squeezing or compression.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the flaps with a I'm gonna say a bulldog clip, I've done that, but like just normal peg.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can peg them together.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've got like flappy flaps, a bulldog clip, great.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm wicked, but you know.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um pinching, controlled spanking or slapping of the pubic mound, the vulver area.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, science, science terms, yeah.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the front bit.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: Slapping that, that obviously is gonna make it hot and sensitive.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: And like your clits under there as well, but the flaps are protecting it in most cases.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're slapping the uh the vulva, the the flaps on the outside, you're gonna get the clits on the inside.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Your clips are gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger, you're gonna get wetter and wetter and wetter, all that kind of thing.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Scratching, not into scratching personally, temperature play, using warm and cold, cold dildos, that kind of thing.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh suction and pumping devices.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've used these.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've used them.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: They can hurt on some people, but you know, it makes your clits swell up.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can get labial ones as well.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bondage, incorporating your hips and thighs.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've seen some stuff including uh involving pulling flaps back, uh laser like flappy flaps, yeah.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it was great.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: They had uh bulldog clips on each one.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you're like a little hole in the top of a bulldog clip, they threaded through the bulldog clip, just like normal strong jute, and then did rope work, and then the jute was attached to the rope and the flaps were pulled open.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mad.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking boss, it was.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can get purpose-built BDSM clams, of course you can, but bulldog clips.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've got the little hole in the top, and this look a little bit more menacing because stationary in it.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it is.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: You combine them with two kinks, stationary and flaps.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't need any special equipment if you don't want to, just a hand, but you know if you've got paddles, pinwheels, and all that kind of thing.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: And your biggest tip, you haven't got to do an awful lot for a lot of return.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: The uh the fandango will respond accordingly if you're doing it in the right way.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of nerve endings, lots of moisture.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: As well.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so if you're doing it right, you'll know.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: You haven't got to go for it.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: Dead, dead, dead sensitive.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're slapping, just little slaps.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, any of this doesn't have to be too hard at all.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if I don't know, if you build it up as well, if you want to go harder, just build up.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you can slap hard if you want to do it a little bit more.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it is torture, but if you don't want to go to the torture realms, just do it nice and light, you'll still get some nice effects from that.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: I saw one girl, they called it Fanny slapping.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: She had all sorts of different things, and they hadn't touched her down there at all.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: They had her on across and uh her legs were apart, but she was a biggish girl, so her flaps were still together.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy who was playing with her had these fucking big cup hands like that.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: Bang! And cupping right around.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it was cupping and right around because her legs were apart.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, she was loving it.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: He started off quite uh uh lighted first, then Bill Sorten.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't hear like the hollow sound as the cupped hand gave the flaps.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we were all watching.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_00: Lights are sort of on.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, that was like she's enjoying that.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: She was literally dripping dripping down like that, like a snail trail.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, I thought, oh god, this is amazing.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: She hadn't come, but she was telling us all that she he was going really hard as well in the end.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: He he really, really built it up because that was her thing.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the more he did that, the more fucking drippier she got a little bit.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Good for her.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know what uh our body can do in response to things, really.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I've given you enough to experiment with genital torture without going too far if you don't want to.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: It can be sexy.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like nice little taps on the labia.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like a little quicky one.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh bit of breast.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: Little bit of a sort of slapper as well.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's great.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, being sensual um doesn't always have to be stroken like little taps like that.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really nice.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: There we have it.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: Female genital torture.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's not mutilation.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Don't mutilate.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a great episode.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was fun.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're we're all just about done.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you are do your thing.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: I might be interested again.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you've been watching, put the cattle on, we'll see it in five.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: If not, we'll see you next week.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having some shots.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'll have to ground the bar for that.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, it's actually very soft.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, before we do actually go it's that warm here today that that is now bending.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's ridiculous.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's very toasty.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: So talking about flaps, you can just imagine what my flaps are like right now.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when City goes, I'm gonna go straight in the shower.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm going home to a shower.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sweaty flaps and under boob.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: Delightful.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: See you soon!
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: Coming up next time on the Paddicell podcast.
• 1:07:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: A meter high wig! Yeah.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: She was an extreme masochist.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like a busser churner with a leg.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: I do like a bit of adjunct.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: We do add your time.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: With your defo t-shirt.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: Deaf-o t-shirts wrong.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: Around towards a but something unlocked this vault of shit.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: Those that have got trauma may use BDSM as a means of dealing with the trauma and facing the trauma.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: Dad of the year for me, like.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: The assault was savage, the house was ransacked, and his car was stolen.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just give me an hour with them in a room.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't need to know what I've done.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: But they will never, ever do it again.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there we have it! Another day made better by listening to the creators of chaos.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for dropping by, and if you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate you sharing your love the Patastel podcast with your friends.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to give us a follow on our socials, maybe leave us some five-star reviews, and feel free to send us an email to magic at the padstellpodcast.co.uk or even interact us on Facebook because we love chatting to you.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to stop by next week because, as Bowie says, I don't know where I'm going next, but I promise it won't be boring.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: Catch you soon.