Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / From Hippie to Stanford: Medicine, Horses & Quantum Consciousness with Dr. Beverley Kane | Ep 36

Transcript

From Hippie to Stanford: Medicine, Horses & Quantum Consciousness with Dr. Beverley Kane | Ep 36 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
0:01
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
0:03
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
0:06
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
0:13
audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
0:16
If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up,
0:19
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really, really helps us to make the pro.
0:24
To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries,
0:29
books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com.
0:34
So now let's jump in.
0:37
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
0:39
The process of self-actualization takes many forms and I am
0:45
happy to have Beverly Cain, Dr.
0:47
Beverly Cain from the University of Stanford, and she's also a doctor
0:52
and she's also a equine practitioner and she's also many things.
0:57
And she didn't start that way.
0:59
She came to California with 35 bucks in her pocket and living on her wits and
1:06
somehow ended up a professor of medicine at Stanford as well as other things.
1:10
So I think that is definitely a life story we need to hear.
1:14
And then a present day, what on earth are you up to with these amazing life
1:18
skills that have brought you this far?
1:20
So, stand by my friends for doctor.
1:23
Beverly Cain, thank you so much for coming on the show.
1:27
Please tell us who you are and what you do.
1:31
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:31
Thank you, Rupert.
1:32
We have a little bit of a history and it's, it's so nice to be on your program.
1:37
So as you said, I came out with $35.
1:41
I actually hitchhiked out here.
1:43
Rupert Isaacson: Where from, where did you start?
1:44
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:44
I was based on the east coast basically in New York.
1:48
I had been doing, at the time I was doing a lot of anti-war activism that
1:53
it was the time of the Vietnam War.
1:56
So I was very active in the effort to end that war.
2:01
And I, I hitchhiked out here.
2:02
My, my boyfriend was out here and I had $35 and I had the
2:07
resources to stay for two weeks.
2:10
That was, I think 55 years ago, about 1972.
2:16
And what happened is while I was out here, I got really sick
2:23
and I ended up in the hospital
2:26
Rupert Isaacson: I had gone to.
2:27
What did you stick with?
2:27
What did you get?
2:28
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
2:28
I had an ovarian abscess.
2:32
I had, yeah, I was very, I had a fever of 103.
2:35
And so how old were
2:36
Rupert Isaacson: you at this point?
2:37
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
2:37
I was about 21.
2:39
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:40
Really young for that.
2:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
2:42
Okay.
2:42
20 20, 21.
2:42
Yeah.
2:43
And so I went to the Berkeley free Clinic with a temp of
2:46
103, ended up in the hospital.
2:50
And when I got out of the hospital, I wanted to repay the kindness
2:55
of the Berkeley Free Clinic.
2:57
So I became a volunteer, and then I was in their paramedic program, which
3:02
isn't the, as we think of paramedics, it's more kind of a barefoot doctor.
3:07
It's not the people that ride in ambulances and
3:10
through one thing in another.
3:12
I went back to school.
3:12
I had dropped out of, of college.
3:15
Dropped outta school.
3:16
I went to,
3:17
Rupert Isaacson: where were you at school and what were you doing?
3:20
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
3:20
I was at, when I dropped out, well, I dropped out of Columbia University.
3:26
Okay.
3:26
Initially during that anti-war effort.
3:29
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
3:30
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
3:30
And so based on the East Coast.
3:32
And what had you
3:32
Rupert Isaacson: been studying?
3:35
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
3:35
Well, I.
3:36
Started out thinking about medicine, but the chemistry, the couple that
3:41
taught chemistry were just these old bitties that made it so uninteresting
3:46
that I, I minored in art history and art and took Chinese, actually Chinese.
3:54
So you a poly brush painting a little checkered past pa
3:58
polymath, both in two ways.
4:01
Get, okay.
4:02
Okay.
4:02
So you drop out of much into history of art
4:04
Rupert Isaacson: and Chinese and, and hitchhike to be an anti-war protestor in
4:11
Berkeley and then get sick and then get healed at the free clinic in Berkeley so
4:18
you don't end up in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt which can happen.
4:22
Of course, everyone gets sick in America as a young person with no insurance.
4:26
And then you decide you want to volunteer for them to repay the kindness,
4:31
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
4:31
right?
4:31
And then I got.
4:32
A little bit more serious about it and ended up in medical school.
4:38
Okay.
4:38
Just I, I was a little bit ambivalent about going to medical school, but it,
4:45
the time had come and I was actually interviewed by a man who went on to
4:52
win the Nobel Prize in biochemistry.
4:54
Great guy.
4:55
Who was that?
4:56
Who I did Michael Bishop.
4:59
I think he, I am not sure what year he won the Nobel Prize.
5:01
It was probably 20 years after my, okay.
5:04
Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna Google him quickly while you talk.
5:06
Okay.
5:07
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
5:07
Yeah.
5:07
I think he's still alive.
5:09
Rupert Isaacson: Michael Bishop?
5:10
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
5:10
Michael Bishop.
5:11
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
5:12
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
5:12
So,
5:12
Rupert Isaacson: and that was at which school?
5:14
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
5:14
That was at UCSF, university of California.
5:17
San Francisco.
5:18
Okay.
5:19
Yeah.
5:20
Very good school.
5:20
And I, I stayed with them.
5:24
I had done a lot of.
5:27
My medical school work, I did an, a residency in family medicine, and
5:33
then I did a fellowship in ob, GYN.
5:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
5:37
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
5:37
And a fellow and a fellowship in sports medicine in London.
5:41
At the London Hospital.
5:42
Rupert Isaacson: And why did you go to London?
5:45
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
5:45
Because there were very few, if any, sports medicine programs
5:50
for non-orthopedic surgeons.
5:53
There was a, a famous sports medicine program at the, at Cleveland.
5:59
I, I guess that would be case Western in Cleveland, but for orthopedic surgeons.
6:04
Okay.
6:04
But this fellowship in London was for general practitioners
6:10
and family medicine people.
6:11
There were two people from Australia, one from New Zealand,
6:14
one from Sudan and myself.
6:17
It was a wonderful, wonderful program.
6:18
We went all over the UK to various clinics.
6:23
And when I came back, I went into the practice of sports
6:28
medicine for a while and why
6:29
Rupert Isaacson: sports medicine, if you'd started with oh, women's
6:31
medicine, ob, GYN and so on.
6:33
And that's what's the jump across from there.
6:40
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
6:40
I did the OB GYN fellowship because I thought I was going to go up to
6:45
Alaska and deliver babies and, and actually even do cesarean sections.
6:50
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
6:51
And in American community, sorry, in Native American communities.
6:55
Was that the idea?
6:56
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
6:56
Yeah, and I ended up living for, in Alaska four year and doing a lot of
7:02
medicine at Native American clinics.
7:05
But I, I was in no way prepared to do cesarean sections at that time, you
7:10
know, by myself or and I was really at, in the dead of winter in Alaska.
7:18
I read a book that was absolutely life changing, and it was by Michael Murphy,
7:24
who's one of the founders of the Esson Institute here in Central California.
7:30
And it was called Jacob Abit, and it was sort of a novel version of his later
7:36
huge book called The Future of the Body.
7:39
And it was about human potentials in a somatic sense.
7:45
Not just the mind, but what the body would be capable of at, at the time.
7:49
I think the, the one mile, the limit was a four minute mile.
7:54
Mm-hmm.
7:55
By, I, I think a British guy actually.
7:58
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
7:58
And that stood for decades.
8:00
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
8:00
Yeah.
8:00
And I don't know that it's been broken yet.
8:03
Roger and Roger Roger's, somebody I think from, from UK.
8:09
And I, I had just been always very, very athletic, very about the body.
8:14
And this will relate later, hopefully to how I got into horses and how I
8:20
relate to, okay, so sports medicine.
8:22
So you, okay, got it.
8:23
So through that, but I'm just looking at Michael
8:25
Rupert Isaacson: Bishop.
8:26
That is amazing.
8:26
He's best known for his Nobel winning work on retroviral basically oncology.
8:33
He was the first bloke to find out how malignant tumors are formed from
8:39
changes in the normal genes of a cell.
8:41
And it's funny, we take that for granted now, don't we?
8:43
But I guess back in the eighties that wasn't so well known, so.
8:48
Lucky you have someone like that to mentor you, so you Well,
8:51
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
8:51
yeah.
8:52
He, he, he actually didn't mentor me.
8:54
He interviewed me for medical school admission and he was the greatest guy.
8:58
I remember our conversation like it was yesterday and it was 1974.
9:03
Rupert Isaacson: What did he say?
9:03
What stands out in the memory?
9:06
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
9:06
So he told me that one has to be really careful how we look at announcements of
9:17
medical breakthroughs and whether they're made in the public press in the news.
9:26
He was very good friends with the science writer for the San Francisco
9:29
Chronicle at the time, and that that name escapes me and that I know
9:32
that person has since passed away.
9:34
But.
9:36
If you're looking at medical breakthroughs that are announced by the people who
9:41
made them the researchers, you have to be take it with a grain of salt
9:45
because they're going to inflate their findings and their importance.
9:50
Yeah.
9:50
And one should trust more the reporting in the scientific press for accuracy
9:59
and context of any medical breakthrough.
10:02
I don't think that's an issue now with everything we're getting on the
10:04
internet, but in the pre-internet days, there was a lot of self-aggrandizement
10:10
by medical researchers in.
10:14
Even the medical journals, but, but also, yeah, now it's
10:16
Rupert Isaacson: almost flipped and it's like one, one is skeptical of
10:19
what one sees in the medical journals because half of what's more than
10:22
half of what's in there was funded by the pharmaceutical industry.
10:25
So, you know, but that, that's seems to have, you know, crept up on us a
10:30
little bit in the last 20, 25 years.
10:32
Yeah,
10:32
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
10:32
well there's a lot of fraud now.
10:34
Yeah.
10:34
And just this week in my newsfeed there was an article about fraudulent
10:39
reporting in medicine and AI coming up with falsified data and inaccurate data.
10:46
So yeah, it's a real problem.
10:49
Rupert Isaacson: What have I,
10:50
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
10:50
so yeah,
10:51
Rupert Isaacson: snake oil salesman and yeah, use an expression
10:55
even in the virtual world.
10:56
Okay, so you end up in London?
10:58
No,
10:59
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
10:59
I ended up in London and I had a wonderful, wonderful year there.
11:03
Just fantastic going down to.
11:07
Where is it that the, the Royal Navy is doing The 30 meter, 33 meter
11:11
breath hold dives as an exhibition?
11:15
Just amazing the, the Royal Navy came back to San Francisco and went
11:23
into a sports medicine practice.
11:26
I always say I was the token yuppie woman.
11:28
Doctor in a kind of, she she practice in downtown San Francisco.
11:33
Okay.
11:34
And that was run by an anesthesiologist who had no clue
11:39
how to manage the financial and administrative aspects of a clinic.
11:43
So that clinic tanked, and I worked a couple of other places, and then I
11:49
went to Stanford, taking the place of a guy who went off to do his fellowship.
11:54
So I ended up at Stanford.
11:56
In the, technically the division of cardiology, but it was the Stanford
12:01
Center for Research in Disease Prevention.
12:04
And a good part of my sports medicine fellowship was preventative
12:08
medicine, was exercise physiology.
12:13
So it was about a third orthopedics, about a third exercise physiology, and
12:18
a third of an assortment of different topics in sports medicine, like the
12:23
Chief Medical Officer of British Airways coming to lecture us on team, team flight
12:29
medicine, medicine for team flights.
12:32
So at Stanford, I worked on some studies in preventive medicine that there was
12:40
a very well known study called Mr.
12:42
Fit, multiple Risk Factor intervention Trials where we had people quit
12:49
smoking or their intake of cholesterol, start exercising stress management.
12:55
Which I'm very involved with now was a big part of that also.
13:00
Rupert Isaacson: Would that have been in the eighties?
13:02
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
13:02
That was 87 I started there.
13:05
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
13:06
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
13:06
And about a few years later.
13:07
Yes.
13:07
When,
13:08
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
13:08
Stress management was barely talked about back then.
13:11
It's true.
13:13
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
13:13
Well, it's interesting because in the uk, one of our, that miscellaneous third
13:20
that wasn't orthopedics or exercise physiology, it was sports psychology.
13:28
There was a, a fairly big section on sports psychology and dealing with stress
13:35
and performance anxiety in athletes.
13:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
13:39
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
13:39
And especially top athletes.
13:41
I, I mean we worked with the, the British Olympic team when the
13:45
Russian Olympic team came there.
13:48
So, so when those grants work.
13:51
Ran out.
13:52
We, we were funded by grants, and when the grants ran out, I went
13:57
over and worked at Apple Computer.
13:59
Apple Computer was, had worked with us on, in some of our studies.
14:05
Rupert Isaacson: What had they done with you at that point?
14:08
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
14:08
They, and
14:09
Rupert Isaacson: were they looking at stress?
14:10
Stress for their workers?
14:12
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
14:12
They looked at stress, exercise.
14:14
It wasn't mostly stress, it was mostly aerobic exercise.
14:17
Aerobic and anaerobic.
14:18
So were, were they already
14:19
Rupert Isaacson: aware at that point, apple of people
14:21
sitting too long at computers?
14:25
Why were they, why were they into it?
14:27
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
14:27
It was some of that, some of that was ergonomics and I, I ended up.
14:31
Making ergonomic house calls on some of the PE people in the cubicles in Apple
14:36
computer, which was kind of interesting.
14:38
They were interested because corporate fitness was just taking off.
14:43
Then the leader and pioneer in that area was Johnson and Johnson,
14:49
and Apple wasn't too far behind in building fitness centers.
14:53
My job there was to do a multiphasic physical on any employee was eligible
15:01
to have a, an annual multiphasic physical with, so they just
15:05
Rupert Isaacson: basically wanted fit healthy employees,
15:08
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
15:08
right?
15:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
15:09
Right.
15:09
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
15:09
Because there's, there was data on productivity in healthy
15:14
employees, productivity in employees who were less stressed.
15:17
Lower blood pressure, fewer medical problems.
15:20
Big.
15:21
There was a big quit smoking program, one.
15:25
One, one story that stands out in my mind and my heart is there was a person there,
15:32
then he was then a guy who was very well known in the Pascal programming world,
15:40
and then he transitioned to a, she he had been a, was a two pack a day smoker.
15:49
And in transitioning he needed to go on hormones and the doctors wouldn't
15:58
prescribe hormones to somebody who smoked because there was a much higher risk
16:01
of stroke with estrogens and smoking.
16:06
And so he was highly motivated to quit.
16:10
And annually, every, every year in November, we had this event
16:15
called the Great American Smokeout.
16:17
It's a national event where smokers.
16:22
Take a non-smoker as a partner and the non-smoker gives up something
16:27
and the smoker gives up cigarettes.
16:30
Okay.
16:30
And so I became this person's, this, this person had been my patient
16:35
in the, in the clinic for annual physicals and a couple of other things.
16:39
And so I became this person's partner and he, she very successfully gave up smoking,
16:48
got their hormones, and ended up with long blonde hair and painted fingernails
16:53
and miniskirts and things like that.
16:56
Quite a fun story.
16:58
Rupert Isaacson: What did you give up?
17:00
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
17:00
Oh gosh.
17:01
Probably sugar.
17:02
Maybe sweets.
17:03
I don't remember.
17:04
I don't have a huge sweet tooth.
17:06
How long
17:07
Rupert Isaacson: were you supposed to give it up for?
17:09
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
17:09
I think it was six weeks, 30 days, six weeks.
17:14
Okay.
17:14
So not that it's still going on, although, yeah, the Great American
17:18
Smokeout is still going on.
17:19
So I'm not sure how long, how long the commitment is, but yeah, that
17:25
was, that was, that was really sweet.
17:28
Yeah, so I worked at Apple for almost 10 years and was, had become very
17:39
interested in medical informatics, which is the use of computers in medicine.
17:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:44
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
17:44
Because to be a little tangential and do a little back flip.
17:50
In my teenage years I had been really interested in computers also.
17:54
I had gone to a summer program at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
17:59
MIT, for computer programming with punch cards in those days.
18:04
Okay.
18:05
And so I was always interested in computers and I was at that
18:09
time particularly interested in artificial intelligence in medicine.
18:14
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
18:15
Were people even talking about it even back then?
18:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
18:19
This is, yeah.
18:19
This is 1987 and, and people
18:21
Rupert Isaacson: were using the word artificial intelligence.
18:23
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
18:23
Oh, yeah.
18:24
Sure.
18:24
Well, well, well, Alan Touring used it.
18:27
He was probably a, a British guy in the fifties.
18:31
Yeah.
18:31
And yeah, very famous guy.
18:33
Played in the movie by I always call him Bander Snatch.
18:37
Cummerbund.
18:38
Yeah.
18:38
Yeah.
18:40
Rupert Isaacson: Benedict.
18:41
You know
18:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
18:42
who I mean?
18:42
Yeah, I do.
18:43
The really good movie, he was talking about artificial intelligence back then.
18:46
Oh, yeah, yeah.
18:46
In the war.
18:47
Yeah.
18:47
He, he was definitely, I, I don't know who coined the term,
18:51
but it was, he was using it.
18:53
But so, so I was interested in artificial intelligence and medicine and Apple
18:56
had just started their AI group.
19:00
And the man who was to become my husband, I have to get this in was
19:05
the second hire in the Apple AI group, and we came together to plan a panel
19:11
discussion on AI in medicine in Macworld at Macworld, which is a huge annual
19:18
Macintosh conference in San Francisco.
19:24
So when I left Apple, I went to work for Phillips Medical Systems.
19:32
Rupert Isaacson: And why did you leave Apple?
19:35
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
19:35
Why did I leave Apple?
19:37
Because I got offered this really interesting job.
19:39
I, you know, I had been doing mostly physicals for 10 years.
19:42
We didn't have a clinic where I actually saw sick people.
19:45
It was just physicals and physicals and physicals.
19:49
Got it.
19:49
And I loved the group.
19:50
We recently had a big reunion, but I really, I wanted to do something a
19:55
little bit more challenging mentally.
19:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
19:58
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
19:58
And at that point, the electronic medical record was coming into the
20:03
fore and particularly the electronic patient record, the, the patient view
20:12
into the electronic medical record.
20:15
So Philips Medical Systems had a group out here that was developing a patient
20:23
record and a a, actually, I think, yeah, it was a doctor and patient
20:28
record, both views into the system.
20:32
To integrate with their radiology suites.
20:36
Phillips was, and I think still is the leader in cardiac radiology,
20:43
radiology for cardiology.
20:47
And so that, that was a great group.
20:52
And then somehow I think Philip put the kibosh on that.
20:58
I don't exactly remember what happened, but then I went to a
21:02
company called WebMD, which probably a lot of people have heard of.
21:08
Yeah.
21:08
And that, that was a terrific experience also because we, we were also working
21:15
on the patient record, the view into patient data and designing.
21:23
Medical record, the internet
21:25
Rupert Isaacson: was alive and well by this point.
21:27
Right.
21:27
So you are.
21:27
Yes.
21:28
We,
21:28
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
21:28
this is, this is 2000.
21:30
Okay.
21:31
Yeah.
21:32
Yeah.
21:32
The e email, everything.
21:34
It wasn't like it is now.
21:35
There wasn't, right.
21:35
But
21:35
Rupert Isaacson: it was
21:36
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
21:36
a lot of the, the degree of, in fact, apple, apple was
21:39
just, it was the big takeoff.
21:40
It was the big, yeah, it was,
21:42
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
21:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
21:42
When I left Apple, so that was, I left Apple in 97.
21:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
21:47
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
21:47
And Apple,
21:50
I was one of the people that had helped form the apple,
21:54
the internet interest group.
21:56
There were two people from the advanced technology group and and
22:00
my husband, who they had internet.
22:03
The, the, the American military had internet in the, in the seventies it
22:07
was called Arnet and Darpanet and had.
22:11
Internal emailing systems and kind of like what it is today at at least
22:16
technically tech technology wise.
22:19
So, yeah.
22:20
So at WebMD we had a little artist's colony on the floor where, you
22:27
know, we were all in cubes, but we had the facilities people unscrew
22:31
our fluorescent lights and we all brought these beautiful lamps.
22:34
And these were the very, very creative people from the
22:38
apple Human Interface group.
22:40
And we did designs for the medical record and it was just a real fun place to be.
22:48
And then WebMD, who was based mostly on the East coast, they
22:55
decided to close their Silicon Valley office and they moved.
23:01
They wanted to divide it up and move some to New York and some to Atlanta.
23:06
Rupert Isaacson: Why.
23:07
Why, why get out?
23:08
That's, that's where
23:09
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
23:09
they, well, they had been based there and I think they thought they
23:13
could do better in Silicon Valley.
23:15
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
23:15
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
23:15
And then they found they couldn't.
23:17
Okay.
23:17
You know, especially with the internet growing up, it didn't matter where
23:19
you were and it just didn't make sense to keep that to keep that open.
23:24
Mm-hmm.
23:25
Just, you know, again, parenthetically that that collaboration was between a
23:31
company called Halon and, and WebMD.
23:35
And Halon was Clark Jim.
23:39
Jim Clark, I think, who was started Netscape and then Silicon Graphics.
23:44
You've heard now.
23:46
Yeah.
23:47
Now we're talking Netscape Silicon Graphics.
23:49
Had a, had a big ship in the Americas Cup.
23:52
I think he might even have won.
23:55
And, but, but anyway, so WebMD.
23:58
Decided to pull in its forces and consolidate on the East
24:01
coast and I wasn't gonna go move.
24:04
And so in 2002, oh, and, and the other thing that was happening at
24:09
that time was what's called the.com
24:12
bust, where a lot of the startups
24:16
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
24:17
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
24:17
Went down.
24:18
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
24:18
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
24:18
And that, so that was the.com
24:20
bust.
24:21
And so that economically wasn't a good time for Silicon Valley.
24:25
And I think that was another factor in WebMD deciding to move
24:31
its move, its playing pieces.
24:34
And I did not want to go to the East coast.
24:36
They gave us a humongous severance package.
24:39
Nobody, you know, I didn't really need to to work right away.
24:43
But I was a little bit nervous about not working and 'cause
24:47
I always have to be working
24:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
24:51
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
24:51
Doing something and.
24:54
I, I remember this conversation in my backyard with my best
24:57
friend who's actually a, also a doctor and a yoga teacher.
25:00
And she said, cool.
25:02
It just, just cool it.
25:05
Sit back and think, what do you really want to do now that you have
25:12
all this free time and resources?
25:16
And I said, well, you know, I've always wanted to ride horses.
25:24
Rupert Isaacson: And you never had until that point.
25:26
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
25:26
Sorry?
25:26
Rupert Isaacson: You never had until that point?
25:28
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
25:28
No, you know, I, I had the odd dude ride in Yosemite.
25:32
Okay.
25:32
But no, I had, I grew up on an island.
25:35
I had no consciousness of horses except perhaps for the sort of
25:40
Hoi Toi National Velvet set.
25:41
And there was harness racing just outside of Boston.
25:45
But no, I, I, which, which
25:46
Rupert Isaacson: island were you, were you brought up on?
25:48
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
25:48
It's called Winthrop.
25:50
It's like 355 degrees water and there's a causeway out to Boston.
25:57
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
25:58
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
25:58
And so we were all about swimming and boats and surfing and Right.
26:03
The beach.
26:04
Yeah.
26:04
Rupert Isaacson: But you always had a hankering foot, the boats.
26:07
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
26:07
Well, I watched all the cowboy movies of the fifties.
26:11
Yeah.
26:12
Boy Rogers and have Gun Will Travel and Wagon Train and Bonanza.
26:17
Bonanza wasn't the fifties, but no, I used to watch the westerns
26:20
and get on my bed and make a horse out of my pillow and a belt.
26:24
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
26:25
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
26:25
Giddy up on the edge of the bed.
26:27
And put my pajamas over my head with the legs hanging down
26:31
so I could be Annie Oakley.
26:33
Okay.
26:34
So, so that was horses.
26:35
It was cowboys and,
26:37
Rupert Isaacson: and cowgirls
26:39
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
26:39
and cowgirls and western fantasies.
26:40
Yeah.
26:41
Yeah.
26:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
26:43
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
26:43
So, so fast forward to 2002 and I always wanted to, I can't say
26:49
I always wanted to ride horses, but late lately, in those years,
26:54
'cause I was, I was 52 at that time.
26:57
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
26:57
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
26:57
So, and I had once run a marathon, two half marathons.
27:02
I used to swim a mile a day and my body was kind of getting not
27:08
so able to do those things right.
27:11
I thought, well, you know, if I get on a horse, I will be
27:15
strong again and fast again and graceful again and tireless again.
27:22
So that was my fantasy at that point.
27:25
And so I started taking writing lessons.
27:27
Rupert Isaacson: It's surprising though that it took you that
27:28
long because have you been out in Silicon Valley all that time?
27:31
And Silicon Valley's actually, people often don't realize this, but
27:33
it's a very horsey place and people think of Silicon Valley as like a
27:37
valley of silicon, and it isn't.
27:38
It's like one of the most beautifully forested, you know,
27:42
rural, semi-rural parts of, you know, California and lots of horses.
27:47
So I'm surprised that within that culture you hadn't found your way
27:51
there, and until this point you'd always have to try to avoid it.
27:56
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
27:56
Well, it's not so obvious I commute
27:59
Rupert Isaacson: Especi at Stanford.
27:59
'cause Stanford has a big equestrian presence, right?
28:03
There's even Fox hunting going on on that campus.
28:06
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
28:06
It was on, it was on a whole other side of.
28:10
Of campus from us.
28:13
So I, I really had no consciousness of the, the Stanford
28:17
Red Barn Equestrian Center
28:19
Rupert Isaacson: right
28:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
28:19
as it is.
28:21
And you can't really see horses from the road.
28:23
I commuted for years from San Francisco down through Silicon Valley to Sunnyvale
28:30
and Santa Clara for, you know, for WebMD.
28:32
And I never saw horses from that.
28:34
It's funny though.
28:34
Rupert Isaacson: I've driven that same road so many times, and I remember when
28:37
I used to live in Berkeley for a bit and I drove that road the first time,
28:40
the first thing that hit my eye in the fences around snap of work coops, you
28:45
know, the jumps that fox hunters put in the, in the wire fences that they
28:50
can jump over when they're following hands and think, I was thinking, oh,
28:53
someone's hunting here, you know?
28:55
So it's so interesting, isn't it?
28:56
If you're conditioned to see those things that leapt out at me from
28:59
the highway, you would drove past that a bazillion times and I guess
29:03
different conditioning, different.
29:04
Well,
29:05
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
29:05
and now I'm on a 300 acre ranch that.
29:09
Starts a hundred yards from the highway.
29:11
And I never knew there were horses there.
29:14
Right.
29:14
It just, you, you're right.
29:15
You, you've gotta be conditioned to see it.
29:17
It has to.
29:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
29:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
29:19
There has to be something in your mind that gets triggered when, when it happens.
29:25
And I, you know, I always thought horses were beautiful animals.
29:28
But, but, so there I was in 2002 and I started taking writing lessons
29:34
and it, it, I, I really loved my instructor.
29:38
I, I kind of have her to this day.
29:41
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
29:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
29:41
But writing at that point for me, and I don't fault my instructors, but it's
29:52
just kind, sort of the kind of person that I am, a little bit perfectionist.
29:57
So it was all about doing things right, being correct.
30:04
It wasn't even at that point so much the relationship with the horse,
30:09
although I love animals and you know, I feel very connected emotionally and
30:14
spiritually to animals and horses.
30:17
But at that point, riding was about being correct and I went to my lessons every
30:23
week for years with knots in my stomach,
30:28
afraid of how I was gonna mess up.
30:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
30:30
I think, I think that's the story so many people have.
30:33
Yeah.
30:33
Yeah.
30:33
Right.
30:35
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
30:35
So then fortuitously, what happened was a few years later, I think in
30:44
2004, six, something like that, I, no, it was later than that, but I
30:52
got bucked off a table in my kitchen.
30:56
Okay.
30:58
Naughty table.
30:59
Yeah, I was naughty table.
31:01
Very just.
31:03
I think
31:07
and I got a broken foot, a dislocated elbow
31:13
Rupert Isaacson: and a How does one get bucked off a table?
31:15
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
31:15
I was putting wine glasses away on a high shelf and I was, it, it was a small table.
31:24
It wasn't really made as a step stool and it was on spindly legs and it, I just,
31:32
my, my foot placement was such that it flipped out under me just, and I ended up
31:39
on the kitchen floor and synchronistically and symbolically there was, in our
31:46
living room, a guy sitting there who was an adjuster from the insurance company
31:51
'cause we had had flooding in our garage.
31:53
So he was sitting there with his little laptop adjusting and.
31:58
That, that became very symbolic because that accident was this
32:05
huge adjustment in my life.
32:09
'Cause I went, the, the orthopedic surgeon that tended my foot
32:13
said, we can't ride anymore.
32:15
You, you can't ride right?
32:17
You, you bone heal.
32:20
Right?
32:22
And I said, well, you know,
32:27
I could, I was perfectly, it was my right foot that was fractured.
32:31
And so I was perfectly capable of mounting, you know, with my left
32:36
foot in the stir and swinging over.
32:38
But I, I got a little bit scared, I guess, or a little bit caught.
32:43
He, he instilled caution in me, a caution that isn't usually there.
32:49
But I said, okay, so what I did is I enrolled as a client in.
32:58
The Therapeutic Riding Center, our local then Path Premier
33:04
Therapeutic Riding Center.
33:07
And I had been volunteering there for a couple years with, with children mostly.
33:13
Rupert Isaacson: And why, what did join you to do that?
33:17
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
33:17
Because I wanted to learn everything I could about horses because I
33:20
admired the work that they were doing.
33:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
33:23
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
33:23
I learned so much about horses in that program.
33:26
Mm-hmm.
33:26
Those, those horses were in some ways very different from the lesson
33:30
horses that we had at the ranch.
33:33
Just amazing horses, a lot of them.
33:36
And and I, and I wanted to do something of service.
33:40
Mm-hmm.
33:40
And there may have been other reasons, but, but it, anyway, after the
33:46
accident, I became a client in that center and I had the most fantastic.
33:56
Therapeutic riding instructor Corey Thompson, I have to say her name into the
34:01
video in Invoke Her 'cause she actually later became and, and still is a quite
34:07
a big part of my horsemanship life.
34:10
And for the first time it was just playful to be on horses.
34:17
It was so liberating.
34:21
Because, you know, it was bareback.
34:23
We rode bareback and it was a wonderful horse.
34:28
I can see him but I can't remember his name.
34:30
And we did airplane arms and we did around the world and we did
34:37
breathing and singing and everybody was just so cheerful and playful.
34:44
And I thought, wow, this is, this is what I really want.
34:51
Have for, for my horsemanship and there was a somatic aspect of feeling my body,
35:01
feeling my breathing in, in a playful way, not in a way that was meant to put myself
35:08
in the correct ear, hip axis position.
35:13
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
35:13
Or, or, or run your marathon correctly or all the other things you've been trying
35:19
to do correctly with your body, I presume as well, which wasn't Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:22
Had probably lack play, you know, had high achievement, but perhaps not quite
35:27
so not as we'd say in the UK or Ireland.
35:30
Not much crack.
35:33
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
35:33
Yeah.
35:33
Well, you know, I could swim before I could walk.
35:36
Yeah.
35:36
Almost.
35:37
Well, not quite, but two years old I was swimming in the ocean.
35:40
Mm-hmm.
35:41
And swimming wasn't about being perfect.
35:43
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
35:44
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
35:44
Or about, I, I mean, I did take swimming lessons and teach swimming
35:48
and learn technique and there's something to it, but it was always fun.
35:52
Yeah.
35:52
And, and horse riding lessons just weren't fun.
35:58
Right.
35:58
'cause you didn't get to grow
35:59
Rupert Isaacson: up on the back.
36:01
Right.
36:01
Just messing about like we did.
36:03
Yeah.
36:04
So I always associated it with fun.
36:07
Yeah.
36:07
Later when we Yeah, yeah.
36:09
Went to refine my technique.
36:11
Okay, fine.
36:11
But yeah, the, the base was always fun, but it it's so true, isn't
36:15
it, with a lot of these things that we start as adults mm-hmm.
36:17
We often come in, no matter what it is, with a such a desire to do it right.
36:23
That we don't come in with the same play, playful laity that children
36:27
come in, including learning by the way and studying, you know?
36:30
Mm-hmm.
36:31
So we want to be successful, we want to be diligent, we want to be
36:33
rigorous, we want to be all these things, and it's just no crack at all.
36:36
And no wonder everybody burns out and gets depressed.
36:39
Yeah.
36:39
Yeah.
36:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
36:42
Well, you know, we're just winding down our summer camp season, so
36:46
for 22 years at this ranch, we've had summer camps, Uhhuh, and the,
36:50
the kids start at seven years old.
36:53
And I see how, how they approach it in, in the ways that I never got to do as
36:59
a child or as a perfectionist adult.
37:01
And it's just fun for them.
37:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
37:04
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
37:04
It's just a lot of fun.
37:05
So, alright,
37:06
Rupert Isaacson: so, so back up just a little bit.
37:08
So you end up though, at Stanford again, isn't that right?
37:13
Or how do you,
37:16
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
37:16
okay.
37:16
So that's your, your, your
37:17
Rupert Isaacson: academic thing seems to kick off at the same
37:20
time that you get this whole therapeutic equestrian thing going.
37:26
Just, just how do these things happen in parallel?
37:30
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
37:30
It's, it's a little more sequential.
37:32
So, so that, that accident put me back in my fun body.
37:38
Mm.
37:38
With Corey and I, she, I eventually worked for her in a veteran's program
37:45
at that therapeutic writing center.
37:47
I'm, I'm a little hazy on the.
37:50
On the timeline here, so I'll just
37:54
Rupert Isaacson: kind of lay
37:54
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
37:54
it out.
37:54
It's, it's a little bit of a mosaic now.
37:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
37:57
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
37:57
So I had always been interested in psychology and, and actually spirituality.
38:04
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
38:05
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
38:05
From, from my mother was very interested in dreams and very
38:08
interested in extrasensory perception.
38:11
Rupert Isaacson: Was your mother Jung?
38:14
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
38:14
No, she wasn't a psychologist.
38:16
She had a geology professor at Tufts University that I think was also
38:24
interested in extrasensory perception.
38:26
My mother was a very hardheaded woman.
38:28
Very logical.
38:29
Sure.
38:29
Very.
38:30
Rupert Isaacson: It's funny how one always feels the desire to say
38:33
this as soon as one says anything spiritual, as if being hardheaded
38:38
and scientific can't exist in direct parallel with the ex, you know, the.
38:45
The esoteric it's, it's so interesting, isn't it?
38:48
We almost find ourselves apologizing for the esoteric side of our as.
38:52
But, but you know, really, really, I'm, I'm a real rigorous scientist as well.
38:56
It's like, yeah, yeah, sure.
38:57
Absolutely.
38:57
But again, life without the esoteric is also no life at all.
39:02
And, well, we also, physics now is, you know, well, its way back to the
39:07
esoteric, but I can hear what you mean.
39:09
It's it.
39:10
Okay.
39:10
So, so, so your, your mother.
39:12
Okay.
39:12
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
39:12
Wait, I've gotta get a little tangential here.
39:14
What you just said is what brought me to work Schiller, from your podcast.
39:20
Ah, and my, my life's work now is bridging the scientific and the spiritual
39:28
through horses, through quantum physics.
39:33
Quantum theory.
39:35
So that, that's, maybe we'll get to the thing we want.
39:37
Now you're gonna have to bring us to quantum.
39:38
Now we're back in, right now we're back in like 2005, I think.
39:44
Okay.
39:45
So I became familiar somehow with the field of equine assisted
39:51
learning and psychotherapy.
39:53
My family medicine residency emphasized psychotherapy and the, the psychological,
40:01
and that was always an interest of mine.
40:04
Hmm.
40:04
And so I was going to go to a clinic with Barbara Rector, who will be known
40:11
to some of the people listening here.
40:12
She's quite well known in equine assisted learning, kind
40:18
of spirituality cycles circle.
40:20
Okay.
40:20
I'm gonna
40:21
Rupert Isaacson: look her up as you, as you talk, Barbara.
40:23
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
40:23
Yeah.
40:23
Adventures in awareness.
40:24
She's out of Tucson, Arizona.
40:26
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
40:27
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
40:27
And I was supposed to go to a clinic of hers down by San Diego in California.
40:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
40:33
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
40:33
And the clinic got canceled.
40:36
And in the cancellation email, there was an invitation to do the five
40:41
day version of her clinic in Tucson.
40:45
And I thought, well, do I really wanna commit to that amount of time?
40:52
And, and the, the resources and everything.
40:54
And, and at that point, as I was deciding, I had what Carl and calls a great dream.
41:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
41:02
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
41:02
We had this magnificent technicolor dream of red.
41:08
Mustangs stallions dancing in the desert.
41:11
Okay.
41:12
And this dream was complete with a Native American shaman riding over the hill.
41:17
And I had no connection with deserts, and the horses were dancing in the dream.
41:23
They were dancing.
41:25
And I said, okay, I'm supposed to go to the desert and do this workshop,
41:31
which I did.
41:32
And Walter Zele was there.
41:34
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I knew Walter Zele a little bit.
41:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:37
Those, for those listeners who didn't, he was a, a very, very Al
41:41
Austrian classical dressage dude.
41:43
Yeah.
41:43
What was he doing there out of, well, he
41:45
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
41:45
was doing a dressage clinic.
41:47
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
41:47
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
41:47
We got to watch a little bit.
41:49
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
41:50
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
41:50
Amazing guy.
41:50
He's since over the Rainbow Bridge, but yeah,
41:53
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
41:53
I have his book on the bookshelf behind me there.
41:55
Yeah.
41:55
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
41:55
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:57
So in Barbara's.
42:00
Syllabus.
42:01
She, she had a big three ring binder for us.
42:05
There was an article in the EG gala magazine about Alan Hamilton who was egal
42:14
Rupert Isaacson: again, for listeners who don't know what that is, was
42:17
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
42:17
Oh, I'm sorry.
42:18
Yeah,
42:18
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
42:18
One of the first models of equine facilitated psychotherapy effectively.
42:22
Yeah, yeah.
42:23
Okay.
42:24
Yeah.
42:24
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
42:24
Equine assisted Growth in Learning Association.
42:26
Right, right.
42:28
So, there was an article from their magazine in Barbara
42:32
Rector's three ring binder
42:33
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
42:34
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
42:34
On Alan Hamilton, who was then the chief, and, and may still be
42:38
actually the chief of neurosurgery at the University of Arizona.
42:42
And, and he was a horseman with a ranch, and he had developed a program
42:49
called Medicine and Horsemanship.
42:53
Where he taught workshops for medical students with his horses in
43:00
communication, teamwork basically that, and when I saw that, just this
43:10
light bulb went off in my head and I thought, this is what I want to do.
43:15
Hmm.
43:15
I can, I can work with horses and medical students and doctors and
43:20
nurses to improve communication because
43:26
doctor communication issues were, are, we're, and are a sore spot in.
43:35
In medical practice.
43:36
It's
43:37
Rupert Isaacson: so true.
43:37
Bedside manner, you know, people underestimate it.
43:40
But doc, there's doctors that kill their parents, parents, patients who Yeah.
43:43
And vice versa, just by being unpleasant and others who didn't
43:48
do so well in their degree.
43:50
All of these patients seem to get better just because the
43:52
doctor is more empathetic.
43:54
Yeah,
43:54
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
43:54
yeah, exactly.
43:56
And, you know, I would, I would always hear horror stories about how
44:01
badly people were treated by their doctors and Dismissed, misunderstood.
44:08
Mm-hmm.
44:09
And so with Alan, under Alan's mentorship, I established
44:17
that same program at Stanford.
44:19
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
44:22
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
44:29
people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
44:34
Are you a therapist?
44:35
Are you a caregiver?
44:37
Are you a parent?
44:38
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
44:42
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
44:47
I really didn't know what to do.
44:49
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
44:54
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
44:57
Temple Grandin.
44:58
And she told me what to do.
45:00
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
45:04
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
45:09
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
45:13
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
45:18
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
45:23
approach, it's called Movement Method.
45:25
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
45:29
It's almost laughably simple.
45:32
The important thing is to begin.
45:35
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
45:39
Grandin and see what results can follow.
45:43
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
45:48
com Sign up as a gold member.
45:51
Take the online movement method course.
45:54
It's in 40 countries.
45:56
Let us know how it goes for you.
45:59
We really want to know.
46:00
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
46:04
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
46:09
Now, were you already back at Stanford at this time?
46:12
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
46:12
No.
46:12
No.
46:13
So how did
46:13
Rupert Isaacson: you establish this at Stanford?
46:16
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
46:16
Well first, let, let me just back up one quarter of a step.
46:20
We, we did the first program at the, at UCSF up in San Francisco.
46:26
And actually the clinic was two hours north of that, and that wasn't gonna fly.
46:30
Medical students weren't gonna drive two hours to this thing.
46:32
Okay.
46:33
And we had hoped there was supposed to be a resurgence of horses in
46:39
Golden Gate Park in San Francisco.
46:41
And that never happened in, in Golden Gate Park.
46:43
I
46:43
Rupert Isaacson: remember that.
46:44
Yes.
46:44
That, that beautiful stable, that's still standing empty there.
46:47
Yeah.
46:48
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
46:48
Yeah.
46:48
Well, there are police horses in the park, but the, the old
46:51
stables never got refurbished.
46:54
And the Ingo Park was right down the hill from UCSF medical school.
46:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
46:59
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
46:59
It's like a five minute walk.
47:02
And, but that never happened.
47:04
And so I said, well, why don't I try making an elective at Stanford?
47:09
So I looked around on the internet for departments that I thought would
47:13
be amenable, you know, sympathetic to doctor patient communic, improving
47:19
doctor patient communication.
47:21
And the chief of family medicine at that time was a guy who had grown up
47:29
in Canada on the US border with horses.
47:33
And he was all for the program.
47:35
He, he was just very aware of the relationship with horses and how horses
47:42
can teach us to be better people.
47:45
So he was all for it.
47:47
And but the rule was in order to create an elective for medical students, you
47:52
had to get a medical student champion.
47:56
So we found this woman.
47:59
Who had two horses at the Stanford Red Barn Equestrian Center, and she
48:07
had had to drop out of Stanford.
48:09
She was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
48:13
Oh.
48:15
And she had to drop out of medical school for one or two years.
48:19
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
48:20
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
48:20
And during those one or two years, her horses were her saviors.
48:25
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
48:27
Did she then survive?
48:29
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
48:29
Yes.
48:29
Oh yeah.
48:29
Yeah.
48:30
She's at Vanderbilt now.
48:31
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
48:32
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
48:32
And yeah, she did very well.
48:34
Good.
48:34
And yeah, I'm still in touch with her, and so she became our champion.
48:39
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
48:40
And.
48:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
48:41
So we have the Stanford program at the ranch at the 300 acre ranch that
48:47
I'm at, which is owned by Stanford.
48:49
Stanford owns 8,000 acres of land in the area, many of which are ranches, some of
48:55
which they've closed down, unfortunately.
48:57
Mm-hmm.
48:59
So that, that kind of brings us up to date except for one thing, which is the
49:04
jewel in the crown, so to speak which is the, the medicine and horsemanship
49:12
emphasizes communication, teamwork, leadership, which wasn't an issue
49:18
when I was in medical school, but it is now that medical care is delivered
49:22
in corporate structures, basically.
49:25
So it's got corporate hierarchies that demand leadership,
49:30
leadership and self-care.
49:33
At some point, I think, connected with this accident and working with
49:37
Corey, I realized that the real thing that I wanted to teach was the
49:43
somatic aspect of being with horses.
49:45
That just the total body connection, which becomes a energetic connection
49:51
and a spiritual connection.
49:53
Mm-hmm.
49:54
'Cause at this point I was also teaching Tai Chi at Stanford.
49:57
Rupert Isaacson: Of course you were
49:59
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
49:59
sorry.
49:59
Rupert Isaacson: Of course.
50:00
Of course you were.
50:01
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
50:01
Well, that, that happened in a weird way too.
50:03
This I, I kind of got roped into it, but but it worked out.
50:08
And there's another slightly gentler martial art called Qigong, which is
50:14
more of a health practice than Taiji, although they kind of both are.
50:17
And so that's what I'm doing now is mainly is teaching Qigong with horses.
50:23
Rupert Isaacson: And how do you do that?
50:25
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
50:25
So we learn some traditional.
50:29
Qigong forms.
50:30
There's a, a basic traditional Qigong form called the Bad gin, which means the
50:38
eight pieces of silk, eight silk brocades.
50:42
And interestingly enough, the bad gin is being heavily studied by the
50:49
health ministry in Beijing for its ability to help people with cancer.
50:56
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
50:56
So tell us about the, these silk and brocades.
50:58
Why that, why that name and how does it work?
51:02
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
51:02
I, I've never been real clear why it's called this, this goes
51:05
back, you know, hundreds of years.
51:09
Longer.
51:09
Longer I to be, yeah.
51:10
I mean, Qigong itself is said to have been discovered.
51:15
We have a piece of pottery that's about 8,000 years old that
51:21
apparently a, according to some archeologists, shows the Woo shaman
51:26
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
51:27
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
51:27
The, the shamans of those days in a Qigong pose.
51:31
And they are said to have learned Qigong by watching animals heal themselves.
51:37
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
51:38
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
51:38
Yeah.
51:38
So, so Qigong works with energy mostly Qi, but I also work with Reiki, which
51:46
I experience was different from Qi.
51:48
And so the, the name of the course is Equanimity Stress Reduction and Emotional
51:54
Self-Regulation in the Company of Horses.
51:58
Rupert Isaacson: What, just quickly back to Beijing, why, why are, why
52:02
is the health ministry there looking at this particular Qigong practice?
52:05
What's it finding that it does for cancer?
52:08
This is interesting.
52:10
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
52:10
So there's some survival data.
52:13
Largely what it does is it eases depression.
52:19
It promotes mm-hmm.
52:20
Appetite.
52:21
'cause people with cancer tend to be really isolated, and so
52:24
it's a very social activity.
52:26
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:27
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
52:27
And there, there may be other factors that, that we're looking at
52:31
in terms of the energy shifts that are salutatory for, for cancer.
52:37
They, they're actually looking at three different forms of Qigong.
52:41
One is the Bawan gin, the, the eight Silicon and Brocades.
52:45
Mm-hmm.
52:45
One is called Five Animals Qigong.
52:48
And the other is this practice called Guin, walking after
52:52
Guin, who was a cancer survivor.
52:56
She had ovarian cancer, lived 10 more years.
52:59
And her doctor said she would, by developing her form of Qigong,
53:04
which is now called Guian Walking.
53:07
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I'm just going to, just, just so that those
53:10
who've never heard of this before, have a little bit of context.
53:13
I've just, I've just done my little Google while you were talking.
53:16
So it says, what are the eight brick brocades in Qigong, it says, the
53:20
eight brocades are a set of Qigong exercises that originated in China.
53:26
I've been practiced throughout the world for thousands of years.
53:28
Each movement focuses on a different meridian to improve
53:32
the flow of Q through the body.
53:35
If practiced routinely, the practice will improve your health significantly.
53:38
It is believed that after practicing the sequence, one feels like wearing a
53:43
dress made of a very rich, exquisite, hard to find precious soft silk fabric.
53:50
So that silk weaving the form, the forms name refers to how it's eight
53:54
movements characterized, and in part, a silken quality like that of
53:58
a brocade to the body and its energy.
54:01
But of course, you know, yeah.
54:02
There's been a major crossover between allopathic and Chinese medicine and Qigong
54:08
and Tai Chi of course, for a long time.
54:11
But again, a lot of people listening might not know that.
54:13
And so I find it very interesting that you're, you're involved in that.
54:16
Interestingly too, just one, one little side note one of our horse boy centers
54:20
in the uk a place called Move The Mind in outside Bristol also takes electives from
54:28
the medical school at Bristol University, which is, you know, our equivalent,
54:33
one of the Ivy Leagues who go out there to do their mental health electives.
54:37
And for movement method, which is, you know, a one-horse side.
54:41
Last year we got asked to do a conference at Eastern Virginia
54:45
Medical School which is part of Old Dominion University on the East coast.
54:49
A neuroscience conference specifically about.
54:52
Our method.
54:53
So it's interesting how these things are going from the hippie
54:56
margins now, you know, into the mainstream of allopathic medicine.
55:01
Whereas of course, yeah.
55:02
Even I think pre COVID it, it wasn't really so much of a, it
55:08
was, it was hovering there, but I think COVID somehow kicked it in.
55:11
Okay.
55:12
So you are teaching, you're teaching Qigong with horses.
55:15
How does one do that?
55:18
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
55:18
So initially we learn the forms on the ground.
55:21
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
55:21
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
55:21
Each form is connected with an organ system, which aren't like the meridian.
55:28
Right.
55:29
Well, not just a meridian.
55:30
Okay.
55:31
The meridians are connected with the organs too.
55:33
I don't really work with the meridians 'cause it's a, gets a
55:36
little esoteric for people, but people can visualize their liver.
55:41
They can think of a lump of meat.
55:42
Yeah.
55:42
Renal gland.
55:43
And in Chinese medicine, the organs aren't.
55:47
Isolated organs, the way we envision them.
55:49
Yeah, their systems.
55:50
Yeah.
55:50
And they're, you know, five elements and five flavors and five emotions.
55:55
And it's a whole philosophical, biological system,
56:00
Rupert Isaacson: right?
56:01
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
56:01
So we learn the emotion that the emotion connected with each of the
56:07
forms, and we learn to release the negative emotion as we do the form.
56:14
Okay.
56:14
So for instance shooting the hawk
56:19
has to do with fear.
56:22
And so we release fear and gather courage, and each, each move has a release
56:30
and a gather, gathering the positive.
56:33
So you
56:33
Rupert Isaacson: do this on the ground.
56:35
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
56:35
So we do this on the ground first.
56:37
We do No horse, sorry.
56:39
Rupert Isaacson: No horse.
56:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
56:41
Not yet.
56:41
Not well.
56:42
We go in with the horses and we do other activities after we do that.
56:46
And, and the last just, just lemme say that the we call what we do, the wan
56:51
gin, you know, bomb bombing eight, eight pieces of brocade and ours is the woo.
56:56
'cause there are three forms in the bad gin that you can't do on horseback,
57:01
like bend over and touch your toes.
57:02
And they're
57:03
Rupert Isaacson: just, when you say the woo does woo mean five, we woo is five.
57:07
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
57:07
So we do the five.
57:08
So someone says woo woo, that's five five.
57:12
Interesting.
57:12
Different, yeah, sure.
57:13
Different, different woos.
57:15
'Cause Chinese has tones.
57:17
So we do, each week we learn one of the, the five and we do
57:23
an activity with the horses.
57:25
You know, the first is just a meet and greet.
57:27
'cause most of these people have never been around horses ever.
57:31
And.
57:33
We learned the five forms.
57:34
And then the last class of equanimity and medicine and horsemanship as this
57:41
has come together is a meditation ride to music, bareback to music.
57:51
We use Nawa kgs, Tibetan flute.
57:54
It's a, it's an album called Music as Medicine.
57:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
57:59
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
57:59
Appropriately enough.
58:00
And there are three tracks where he's actually in duet with a
58:04
very wonderful Native American flute player, art Carlos Naka.
58:10
And so we sit at a, at a halt and do the forms that we've learned.
58:19
And then we do a little walkabout.
58:22
Mm-hmm.
58:22
And, and we, we do this in, teams of four, where we use a
58:25
therapeutic riding configuration.
58:27
So we have one rider, two sidewalks, one or one or two sidewalks,
58:34
and somebody leading the horse.
58:37
So yeah, it's very, it's, it's really, really nice.
58:41
Rupert Isaacson: And what results do you see with this?
58:43
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
58:43
Well, we're not very results oriented.
58:46
People give us, so what results do
58:48
Rupert Isaacson: you see?
58:48
Because you do, you're gonna see something, you're gonna see
58:51
change, so what do you think?
58:52
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
58:52
Well, you know, people get up there and cry and people write on their evaluations.
58:57
What a wonderful course it is.
58:59
And is it
59:00
Rupert Isaacson: about emotional release?
59:01
Is it about,
59:02
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
59:02
it's about emotional and release, but, you know, we don't do any testing.
59:05
I have never been in to do research on my courses, honestly.
59:09
I think as, as Warwick said in your, your podcast with him,
59:16
the, you don't need the science.
59:19
It's a phenomenon.
59:20
Logical.
59:22
Experience.
59:23
No,
59:23
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
59:24
Yeah.
59:24
You only need the science if you're having to fund, you know, through organizations
59:28
what you do for mental health or whatever.
59:30
But nonetheless, I'm just curious to see, you know, what kind of people come
59:34
in and what changes do they experience?
59:38
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
59:38
Well, what I notice is that people's stress levels go way down.
59:41
We have mm-hmm.
59:42
Let me just show you.
59:46
So we do a check-in every week with the Native American talking stick.
59:52
Mm-hmm.
59:52
Which is also our stress ome.
59:55
So people are asked to tell us what their stress level is from, you know,
59:58
down on the belly button, which is zero to shoulder level, which is 10, and
1:00:03
then some people are off the charts.
1:00:06
Mm-hmm.
1:00:06
And what we notice as the weeks go by is that people's.
1:00:10
Baseline stress level goes way down.
1:00:14
And they'll say that they were able to do some of the breathing
1:00:16
exercises and cope better.
1:00:18
'cause they're all Stanford employees.
1:00:21
Almost all we do.
1:00:22
Rupert Isaacson: So this is something that's done internally
1:00:24
within Stanford University?
1:00:26
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:00:26
It is.
1:00:27
It's open, it's done through the Healthy Living program.
1:00:29
Okay.
1:00:29
And it's open to community members.
1:00:32
It feels very quickly and we have a waiting list.
1:00:35
And it seems that Stanford employee, I bet you do got the jump again.
1:00:39
Yeah.
1:00:39
Yeah.
1:00:40
How
1:00:40
Rupert Isaacson: many weeks does the program go over?
1:00:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:00:42
Four.
1:00:43
It's just.
1:00:45
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, so employees from within Stanford
1:00:48
who are stressed out mm-hmm.
1:00:49
Come to you.
1:00:50
You are, you are at, you know, at Stanford, at the stable that Stanford has.
1:00:54
So it's all internal.
1:00:55
Are you still teaching at Stanford?
1:00:57
Are you still practicing medicine as well?
1:00:59
Alongside?
1:01:00
I'm not
1:01:00
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:01:00
practicing medicine, no.
1:01:01
Rupert Isaacson: When, when did you quit practicing medicine in that way?
1:01:05
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:01:05
Oh, boy.
1:01:05
Probably 30 years ago.
1:01:09
Okay.
1:01:09
I was actually seeing patients like that.
1:01:11
Yeah.
1:01:12
And I just went on a retired license, medical license, I think four years ago.
1:01:17
Three, four years ago.
1:01:18
Okay.
1:01:18
So, and
1:01:19
Rupert Isaacson: teaching at Stanford, so,
1:01:21
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:01:21
so I teach the Tai Chi, I teach on campus.
1:01:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:01:25
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:01:25
And it's called Medical Tai Chi, or actually it's called
1:01:30
Medical Tai Chi, which isn't.
1:01:31
Particularly accurate, but it, medical Thai chi, it's called
1:01:35
medical because for the first half hour we have a journal club mm-hmm.
1:01:41
That looks at the peer reviewed journal articles on the health
1:01:47
benefits of TT Chi and Chi Kong.
1:01:50
And as part of that, I teach scientific methodology, what is the gold standard
1:01:56
for scientific research and why things like Taiji fall outside that gold
1:02:01
standard methodology that they're not, you can't really apply the gold standard.
1:02:07
And that's true of, of studies.
1:02:09
And with horses too, there are too many variables.
1:02:13
It's very, very hard to study.
1:02:16
Anything with horses because you have different instructors,
1:02:19
different horses, different Yeah.
1:02:20
Clients or patients.
1:02:22
Very, very hard to study Mom and the horse
1:02:26
Rupert Isaacson: itself can't fill into, into questionnaire.
1:02:27
Yeah, yeah.
1:02:29
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:02:29
It's exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:02:32
So, but, but it's important, especially now where scientific reasoning and
1:02:39
scientific, the philosophy of science is just being turned on its ear by certain
1:02:45
events going on in the United States.
1:02:49
It's important for people to understand how to judge traditional science
1:02:55
and how to say, we don't gotta show you no stinking badges when it
1:03:00
comes to proving that what we do.
1:03:04
Is valuable.
1:03:05
I mean, I, I don't know.
1:03:06
It's great that the
1:03:06
Rupert Isaacson: university values it on that, you know, because you think that the
1:03:09
university would have to justify through some sort of standardized model, you know?
1:03:15
I guess, but I guess it can fund what it wants to fund, right?
1:03:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:03:19
Right.
1:03:20
Well, the, the equanimity is funded through the, the each,
1:03:26
every Stanford employee has a continuing education allowance.
1:03:31
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:03:31
I think
1:03:32
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:03:32
it's.
1:03:33
I don't know, 800, $900 a year.
1:03:35
And so they use that for equanimity and people from the community can just pay
1:03:40
whatever the, you know, the tuition is.
1:03:44
Yeah.
1:03:44
So it's,
1:03:44
Rupert Isaacson: and are you, you are offering this through one
1:03:46
of the departments or schools or faculties at Stanford and Right.
1:03:50
If so, which one?
1:03:52
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:03:52
This is the Healthy Living Program, which used to be part of the medical school.
1:03:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:03:57
And
1:03:57
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:03:57
it's now somehow part of Human Resources,
1:03:59
Rupert Isaacson: but Okay.
1:04:00
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:04:00
Yeah.
1:04:01
But it's the same program.
1:04:02
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:04:03
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:04:03
Yeah.
1:04:03
I'm very fortunate to be able so it's like you're a
1:04:06
Rupert Isaacson: tenured professor without having to go through the
1:04:09
hassle of being a tenured professor in terms of publishing and grant writing.
1:04:12
You, you can be, you, you get to play with ponies in a meaningful way.
1:04:18
Well
1:04:18
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:04:18
actually I'm an adjunct clinical professor.
1:04:22
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:04:22
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:04:22
So, assistant professor actually.
1:04:25
And so we don't, we're not the tenure academic tenure track we're, I
1:04:30
Rupert Isaacson: understand, but it's, yeah, its a bit like
1:04:32
being, ones a whole different
1:04:34
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:04:34
set of Yeah.
1:04:37
It's like the benefits
1:04:38
Rupert Isaacson: of it in a funny way without the, the, the schlep.
1:04:40
It's good.
1:04:41
Exactly.
1:04:41
Yeah.
1:04:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:04:42
Yeah.
1:04:42
I I, I've really benefited from being at Stanford, going through Stanford
1:04:49
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:04:49
And Stanford, you know, has, has led the way in so many things.
1:04:52
It's, it's so interesting.
1:04:53
I think that many of us in.
1:04:56
Other parts of the Western world don't know really how much of our modern life is
1:05:02
affected by what has gone on at Stanford University in the last, you know, 60, 70
1:05:07
years, you know, from the counterculture to, you know, the studies into compassion,
1:05:12
to the, you know, studies in computer science to birthing Silicon Valley,
1:05:17
which basically birthed out of Stanford.
1:05:19
It sort of is Stanford really.
1:05:20
It's just, yeah.
1:05:21
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:05:21
Fairchild, Stanford,
1:05:22
Rupert Isaacson: all boys club, you know, and it's, it's very, I I, I think
1:05:27
Stanford University has shaped modern thinking in a way that's disproportionate
1:05:33
in the way that say Oxford or Cambridge probably did in previous generations.
1:05:38
Mm-hmm.
1:05:39
Now, let me with, with that, bring something that.
1:05:43
Bring us back to something that you said just a few minutes ago.
1:05:45
You said that recent events in science in the USA has turned scientific philosophy
1:05:52
on its head, and my ears pricked up and went, Ooh, that sounds good.
1:05:56
Let's talk about that.
1:05:57
What do you mean by that?
1:05:58
Tell us about it.
1:06:00
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:06:00
Well, I really don't want to get into politics, but you know,
1:06:03
what's happened is that the Centers for Disease Control has been
1:06:08
Rupert Isaacson: the CDC.
1:06:09
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:06:09
So the CDC, the National Institutes of Health have been,
1:06:13
there've been huge cutbacks.
1:06:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:06:16
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:06:16
Huge changes.
1:06:17
A lot of people who don't have medical or scientific backgrounds have been
1:06:22
installed in positions of leadership.
1:06:24
Rupert Isaacson: I think in, in other countries they call those commissars.
1:06:28
Yeah.
1:06:28
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:06:28
Yeah.
1:06:29
Yeah, yeah.
1:06:31
So it's just, it's thrown everything into disruption in terms of
1:06:36
what we thought we knew about.
1:06:38
You know, vaccines and there's been a, a huge resurgence of measles outbreaks in
1:06:45
the United States, especially in Texas.
1:06:47
Mm.
1:06:48
As the anti-vaxxers have risen to ascendancy in the
1:06:53
national health institutions.
1:06:56
So it's just, you know, it, it, it's like a co I I, I look at it as co
1:07:03
capelli, you know, the trickster making us sit back and think about, well,
1:07:09
what do we really know about science?
1:07:11
What do we really believe?
1:07:13
What's really true?
1:07:15
Sh you know, how do we prove things to ourselves and to the scientific
1:07:22
community and to the public health Popul?
1:07:25
How do you think,
1:07:26
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I, I think we could, we, we can certainly know what
1:07:28
the problems might be at this point, but.
1:07:32
And you know, it's easy to understand how the anti-vax thing got going
1:07:35
because you know, when big pharma just keeps throwing more and more
1:07:37
of them at you it's, you, it, it's going to create a counter movement.
1:07:41
It just is, you know?
1:07:42
And they should have seen that one coming, I think.
1:07:45
But if philosophy of science has been turned on its head, that also means
1:07:51
that must be, it must be happening in some really good, positive ways too.
1:07:54
What do you.
1:07:57
In the words of the Great Lou Reed it's easy enough to tell
1:08:01
what is wrong, but that's not what I want to hear all night long.
1:08:05
Let's talk about and take some
1:08:07
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:08:07
heroin in.
1:08:08
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
1:08:09
I'm, I'm a, I'm, I'm the eternal optimist and I, I, I think a lot of what's
1:08:12
going on is, is actually very positive.
1:08:15
I'm also very optimistic about ai, you know, which a lot of people are not.
1:08:19
'Cause I feel that a lot of the really horrific things that have
1:08:22
been done that we're afraid that AI would do, we're sort of forgetting.
1:08:25
No, that's, that's us that do that.
1:08:27
When we've done about 10,000 years of genocide and atrocity.
1:08:32
So if, if AI is going to just do that again, that's actually business as usual.
1:08:36
That's no different.
1:08:38
But it might do something different, I feel, because we are
1:08:42
also a very loving species that's always forgotten and that we.
1:08:48
The people writing those programs are not, or are not evil.
1:08:53
There may be people who are evil who are trying to control them, but it's
1:08:57
rather like the horse, you can use it to commit a genocide and many genocides
1:09:02
have been committed on the backs of horses, or you can use it to heal the
1:09:07
horse will lend you its power either way.
1:09:10
But we seem to have arrived at a point where fewer genocides are being committed
1:09:13
on the backs of horses and more people are using, harnessing that power for healing.
1:09:19
Although it's taken us a few millennial to get there perhaps AI is going to
1:09:24
accelerate that and other walks of life.
1:09:25
But in back in terms of this sort of scientific philosophy, I'm, I'm
1:09:29
interested because this is all affected by you, you, you, you've referred,
1:09:32
you've used the word quantum a few times in this conversation, right?
1:09:37
Well, in quantum being potential.
1:09:39
Really?
1:09:40
Yeah.
1:09:41
So you must have thoughts on where all that is going.
1:09:46
Mm-hmm.
1:09:47
You've been involved in computer science, you've been involved in allopathic
1:09:50
medicine from various viewpoints.
1:09:53
You've been involved in Silicon Valley, you've been involved in the types of
1:09:57
companies that were beginning to, as, as you said, you know, the word artificial
1:10:01
intelligence which is deeply tied in with the whole quantum thing has been
1:10:06
around, you know, since World War ii, but of course has massively accelerated.
1:10:10
You've had a bit of a front row seat of all this.
1:10:13
What are your thoughts?
1:10:14
Where are we, where's it all going?
1:10:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:10:19
I'm very hopeful that artificial intelligence will
1:10:27
be a, a, a positive force.
1:10:29
I, I think that can happen.
1:10:31
I think.
1:10:33
In the cycles of history that we've seen in the world, we've seen, you know, horses
1:10:37
used for war and horses used on farms.
1:10:41
And now horses are mostly very beloved animals that seem to have emerged.
1:10:50
They survived and they emerged in a very positive, in a very positive
1:10:54
way, at least for all of us.
1:10:57
One important facet we haven't touched on in my background is parapsychology.
1:11:03
Rupert Isaacson: Go on then.
1:11:05
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:11:05
I have always been interested in and somewhat active in parapsychology.
1:11:10
We had a group called the San Francisco Parapsychology Research Group and.
1:11:18
People related to that group who are interested in consciousness.
1:11:23
And when you consider the subject of ai, you have to
1:11:29
consider consciousness and Okay.
1:11:32
And whether, okay, so
1:11:34
Rupert Isaacson: define parapsychology first.
1:11:36
So we know the terms that we're dealing with here.
1:11:38
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:11:38
Right.
1:11:40
Paras.
1:11:40
Oh, parapsychology is the field that studies, and this is a little bit
1:11:48
of a circular reasoning, circular definition, paranormal phenomenon
1:11:52
such as extrasensory perception,
1:11:55
telepathy animal communication.
1:11:58
Certainly.
1:12:01
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you become interested in this?
1:12:03
Were you interested in this before you got involved in horses, for example?
1:12:05
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:12:05
Oh, absolutely.
1:12:06
My mom was a big.
1:12:08
Believer in extrasensory perception.
1:12:10
And every time there was a synchronicity or we arrived at the same thought, somehow
1:12:16
she would say that's ESP also dreams.
1:12:20
We would sit around the table in the morning and talk about
1:12:23
our dreams every single day.
1:12:25
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:12:25
So
1:12:26
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:12:26
there was, and there was an aspect of dreaming that was precognitive
1:12:30
and there was an aspect of dreaming that was metaphysical, spiritual.
1:12:37
And, and some, some just mundane.
1:12:40
So when you talk about ai, we have to consider consciousness
1:12:45
and what all the manifestations of consciousness are in humans and in
1:12:53
other animals and even plants and even possibly rocks and trees and.
1:12:59
Inanimate the
1:12:59
Rupert Isaacson: c the conscious universe, effectively
1:13:01
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:13:01
the conscious universe.
1:13:02
Yeah.
1:13:03
Ru put Dr.
1:13:03
Rupert Isaacson: Rupert Shel Drake's work and that
1:13:05
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:13:05
Rupert Sheldrake.
1:13:06
Yeah.
1:13:07
And Ahed Ka Swami.
1:13:08
Mm-hmm.
1:13:09
The has a book called the, he's a, a quantum physicist and a Vedic
1:13:12
scholar who has a book called The Self-Aware Universe, how Consciousness
1:13:17
Creates the Material World.
1:13:19
One a, a life-changing book for me.
1:13:21
I'm reading it for the fourth time right now.
1:13:25
So, and, and it's interesting because Alan Touring, who was one of the fathers
1:13:32
of artificial intelligence, he wrote a paper in 1952, I believe it was that.
1:13:41
Countered all the objections to artificial intelligence being real.
1:13:47
You know, at the time people were dismissing the idea that machines
1:13:51
could be intelligent or that could show any form of intelligence.
1:13:56
And he countered all the objections except one.
1:14:00
And the, the objection that he couldn't counter was the objection from ESP,
1:14:08
it, it's called the ninth objection.
1:14:10
'cause it was the ninth one he dealt with.
1:14:12
And that was the idea that computers could demonstrate psychic abilities.
1:14:20
So, so that's, that's a question that I have.
1:14:24
I think you know, will they ever be able to communicate psychically with horses?
1:14:28
You know, will they ever be successful animal communicators?
1:14:32
Which I heartily believe in.
1:14:34
I've had wonderful experiences with animal communicators and.
1:14:40
Computers are now quantum systems.
1:14:42
And Quantum Theory offers models, and I, I wanna emphasize that
1:14:47
they're models, they're not proofs of how paranormal phenomena might
1:14:55
exist outside of space and time.
1:14:59
Because, you know, classical yeah, I, I won't get into a
1:15:03
technical discussion of all this.
1:15:05
Please do, but, okay.
1:15:07
So, so classical physics, that the Newtonian physics is based on the
1:15:14
idea that everything's predictable.
1:15:17
That the, the world functions like a machine.
1:15:20
If you know the initial conditions of a planet or a car or a ball,
1:15:27
then you can predict its behavior.
1:15:32
So, so, classical physics is deterministic in that way, and materialistic in that
1:15:39
it believes that everything is matter.
1:15:43
Quantum physics is not deterministic because due to certain principles
1:15:52
such as the the uncertainty principle, you can never know for sure the
1:15:58
initial conditions of a system.
1:16:00
So you can never predict where it's going to go.
1:16:03
And mathematically, at least, and functionally with subatomic
1:16:09
particles in experimental physics, time goes forward and backward.
1:16:16
There are quantum leaps between states with no,
1:16:21
Rupert Isaacson: interim process.
1:16:22
Yeah.
1:16:22
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:16:22
No, no.
1:16:23
Pro, yeah, no intermediate states.
1:16:24
You don't know the electrons here and then it's there and you don't know
1:16:27
where it's been, and you only have probabilities of where things are.
1:16:30
So it's a very probabilistic
1:16:33
Rupert Isaacson: What is the uncertainty principle?
1:16:35
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:16:35
The uncertainty principle says that you can determine with great
1:16:40
accuracy either the position or the momentum of a particle.
1:16:46
If you know a lot about the momentum, the position becomes
1:16:52
almost unknowable and vice versa.
1:16:55
So you can know one or the other, but not both.
1:16:57
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:16:58
Interesting.
1:16:58
As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here.
1:17:03
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
1:17:08
the old classical dressage masters.
1:17:11
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
1:17:14
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
1:17:20
If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
1:17:24
really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
1:17:30
com Sign up as a premium member.
1:17:33
and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
1:17:37
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
1:17:43
And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
1:17:48
Heliosharmony.
1:17:49
com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
1:17:53
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:17:53
So, so you cannot determine the initial conditions.
1:17:57
And in quantum mechanics, every, everything kind of exists outside of
1:18:04
space time, that especially Gus Swami's.
1:18:08
The thesis is that matter is not the primary substance.
1:18:13
Consciousness is.
1:18:14
Right.
1:18:14
And there's, there's a, a mystical, well, no, I, I wouldn't say mystical, but
1:18:19
there's a, a whole body of information called the Seth material where Seth,
1:18:25
who is a channeled entity that I believe has a high degree of accuracy from his
1:18:31
channeler says he kind of the same thing, that every, everything is conscious.
1:18:36
Everything is a consciousness unit.
1:18:38
Rupert Isaacson: There's a right and there's a growing body of physicists.
1:18:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:18:41
Yeah, yeah.
1:18:43
Rupert Isaacson: And computer people subscribing to this view, it seems.
1:18:46
That's what I was hoping we'd get to when you said philosophy's being turned
1:18:51
on its head because the political climate is something historical.
1:18:55
Those things ebb and flow, you know, what can you say?
1:18:59
But the f philosophical movements predict the future.
1:19:03
One could argue that Newton was not deterministic.
1:19:08
That, that there was a side of him that was very interested in determinism
1:19:13
and apples falling from trees.
1:19:16
And so he, but being a good polymath, you know, he was interested
1:19:20
in lots of other things too.
1:19:21
And it's often conveniently overlooked that the, there's a
1:19:26
vast body of his work on alchemy.
1:19:29
And of course, by the time, and some people would say he was
1:19:34
primarily an Al Al Alchemist.
1:19:36
I, I know certain scholars and historians who would say just based on
1:19:39
what he published, that he published more on that than he did on the other.
1:19:43
He was also deeply religious.
1:19:45
But he, so the esoteric and, and the scientific together were clearly no.
1:19:52
Mismatch for, for him.
1:19:53
And it's interesting that we now interpret with the kind of fundamentalism people
1:19:58
like him like it's, it's forgotten that, you know, all the people that
1:20:02
hate evolution, the, the Christian conservatives or, or forget that Darwin
1:20:07
was a very, very, very devout Christian.
1:20:09
You know, and you know, it's, it's very interesting what
1:20:12
people choose to, to dwell on.
1:20:14
That of course is political.
1:20:15
And of course with alchemy, by the time the chemical wedding, et cetera,
1:20:21
by, by the time Newton was writing about that sort of thing, it was
1:20:24
partly still looking for transation of led into gold and, and you know,
1:20:30
the philosopher stone and all that.
1:20:32
But it was, it had, it had already taken a leap in the decades before
1:20:37
that into a spiritual, psychological purification analogy that people like.
1:20:47
Newton, even as they fooled around with the experiments, trying to see if it
1:20:51
was possible to ub substantiate, were actually seemed primarily interested
1:20:56
in the philosophical side of it.
1:20:59
And went on to do determinism sort of in their spare time almost.
1:21:03
And and now the deterministic thing is, is what we remember them as.
1:21:08
But I think if he was sitting here in this room, he'd say, no, listen, you know,
1:21:11
I, I was interested in loads of things, you know, look, look at all that stuff
1:21:13
I published on all that woo woo stuff.
1:21:16
So I I I is it now though that we suddenly are able to somehow observe
1:21:26
and measure within the university peer review scientific context, this idea of
1:21:34
consciousness within machines and within micro states of matter, like neutrinos,
1:21:42
like things that we can't quite.
1:21:45
Grab, they're too small, but they seem to bend the laws or physics and exist between
1:21:52
them, or go from one state of being to another without, as you say, a sort of
1:21:57
in observable, interim, intermediate, think they disappear and disappear.
1:22:02
And that appears to be, they used to be a word for that, didn't there?
1:22:05
It used to be magic.
1:22:07
Mm-hmm.
1:22:07
And I guess there's, there's also this sort of old adage
1:22:11
that pseudoscience is just time.
1:22:15
That's my, there's the future coming into the room there and the and
1:22:20
you know, because everything is pseudoscience until someone comes
1:22:22
along and gets it accepted as science.
1:22:24
Right.
1:22:25
And every good scientist has been laughed at ridiculed as I'm being now.
1:22:30
And but.
1:22:32
I do think, do you not think that we have suddenly arrived at a point where
1:22:38
the determination purists, who would be like the scientific equivalent today
1:22:46
of the Spanish Inquisition in the past?
1:22:48
It's the new fundamentalism, isn't it?
1:22:50
Sciences is, as opposed to re religion are now finding their pers
1:22:58
shaken in the same way that the old church dudes were finding it, theirs
1:23:04
shaken around the time of Newton.
1:23:06
You know?
1:23:07
And Newton might say, well, it's the same old thing, you know, so
1:23:10
you have, you, you talk about this principle of uncertainty, right?
1:23:14
And then you've talked about states of matter that behave in, in ways
1:23:19
that are so unpredictable that and that they seem indistinguishable from.
1:23:27
Things that are indeterminate, like consciousness.
1:23:30
Mm-hmm.
1:23:31
Where are we going with all that?
1:23:32
How's this going to, how, how's this, what gonna, how's Stanford gonna
1:23:39
produce this tangibly in our, in our lives in the next 10, 20 years?
1:23:47
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:23:47
I don't know.
1:23:48
There's certainly a lot written about consciousness now that
1:23:52
AI is being hyped so much.
1:23:56
Or not, not a lot.
1:23:58
There was an article I read just yesterday that I had high hopes for about whether,
1:24:03
you know, it asks that, the headline, that the title is, can Ai Ever Be Conscious?
1:24:10
And then you read the article and it's talking about experiments with.
1:24:17
People who have strokes or who are under anesthesia and they're looking at
1:24:22
consciousness as a function of the brain.
1:24:24
They're looking at magnetic resonance.
1:24:27
And they're looking at EEGs, and I'm like, no, you can't look at
1:24:31
consciousness using machines that way.
1:24:33
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's the old approach, isn't it?
1:24:35
Saying that consciousness is a product of the mind rather than the mind
1:24:39
being a product of consciousness.
1:24:40
Yeah,
1:24:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:24:41
right.
1:24:41
There are two kinds of people in this world, the epiphenomenon, that say that
1:24:47
consciousness is an epiphenomenon or a product of the biochemical brain.
1:24:55
And people like Amit Sami, who are the consciousness primary people of
1:25:00
whom I'm one two, which is saying that consciousness is primary
1:25:04
and may even have created somehow through energetic manipulation.
1:25:11
All the things that we consider material.
1:25:14
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:25:14
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:25:14
I I think that one, one really exciting development, which isn't all that recent,
1:25:19
was the Allen aspect an aspect Frenchman who basically is the father of quantum
1:25:26
entanglement, which is the phenomenon whereby two electrons that are once
1:25:37
together and then they're separated.
1:25:39
When you make a measurement on one electron, it changes the second one in
1:25:47
a way that's fa, where the, it's faster than light, and the speed of light
1:25:51
was the einsteinian limit on any kind of signaling or information transfer.
1:25:57
And so that limit has been violated and that's what I'm personally most excited
1:26:03
about because it would seem to explain.
1:26:07
Telepathy precognition you know, there were experiments.
1:26:13
The, one of the, the moonshots had an ES a a telepathy or a parent
1:26:18
A ESP experiment award, and it's
1:26:22
Rupert Isaacson: been shown.
1:26:22
What are the moonshots?
1:26:23
What's that?
1:26:23
The,
1:26:24
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:26:24
the, the space, space vehicles that went to the moon.
1:26:29
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:26:29
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:26:29
They had, they had, as one of their experiments an ESP experiment that showed
1:26:33
that even as far away as the moon is, the ESP signal doesn't deteriorate the way,
1:26:40
say a magnetic field would deteriorate.
1:26:43
Rupert Isaacson: How do you measure the ESP signal?
1:26:46
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:26:46
Well, it's not a signal, it's just the phenomenon.
1:26:48
Can, can.
1:26:50
There were targets.
1:26:51
It's a, it's a a little bit complex to explain, but there are, there are
1:26:54
targets in, in the most simple form.
1:26:58
I'm in the spaceship.
1:26:59
I take a picture of a horse and I get to the moon and I look at the
1:27:06
picture and somebody on the earth is trying to see, see what I'm seeing.
1:27:14
And,
1:27:14
Rupert Isaacson: ah, you're talking about remote viewing?
1:27:16
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:27:16
Remote viewing, yeah.
1:27:18
Okay.
1:27:18
Okay.
1:27:18
So just a little
1:27:19
Rupert Isaacson: aside for people who dunno what that is, right?
1:27:23
You heard of a little old organization called the CI or just mm-hmm.
1:27:27
Yeah.
1:27:28
The
1:27:28
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:27:28
CIA was involved Project
1:27:29
Rupert Isaacson: Gateway.
1:27:30
Right.
1:27:30
They, they put a lot of effort into this in the over, well probably still are but
1:27:36
only what we has been published Project Gateway where they were doing remote
1:27:39
viewing not only over large spaces of.
1:27:45
Space, but over time, and they seem to have been doing it quite successfully.
1:27:52
Of course.
1:27:52
Doing it for intelligence, that that's what you're talking about, right.
1:27:56
More or less, right?
1:27:57
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:27:57
Yeah.
1:27:58
I don't think the moon experiment was the CIA experiment.
1:28:01
'cause that person Russell Tar is right here, a couple of towns over
1:28:06
in Palo Alto, and that was done through the SRI, which was also
1:28:11
known as Stanford Research Institute.
1:28:13
But really, I don't think anything to do with Stanford.
1:28:15
But
1:28:15
Rupert Isaacson: how did they, how did they manage to remote view or,
1:28:19
or confirm, say whether they were remote viewing at the Stanford?
1:28:22
Well,
1:28:22
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:28:22
as I say, it's a, it's a little more complex because they, the
1:28:25
target is generated by a random number generator in a computer.
1:28:29
Mm-hmm.
1:28:30
And then there's a, a.
1:28:36
The, the, there's the, the target person, which is the person on the moon
1:28:40
and the viewer, which is the person on earth, and the viewer will draw what
1:28:46
she sees from the person on the moon.
1:28:51
And then that drawing is given to a separate panel of judges.
1:28:58
I'm just
1:28:59
Rupert Isaacson: wondering what the person on the moon is seeing, you know,
1:29:00
other than like, well, whatever the
1:29:02
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:29:02
target, whatever the, the and I, this is the, that's the the protocol
1:29:08
for the remote being experiments that Russell Targ did on earth.
1:29:11
I don't.
1:29:12
No, exactly what the protocol was for the ESP experiment
1:29:17
on the moon, but in general.
1:29:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:29:19
The
1:29:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:29:19
remote viewing experiments, which is described, which are described
1:29:23
in a book called mind Reach and Mind Raise by target and put off
1:29:29
Russell Targe and Hal put off
1:29:32
Rupert Isaacson: Hal Poff.
1:29:33
Mm-hmm.
1:29:34
That's a great name.
1:29:36
Yeah.
1:29:36
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:29:36
Hog and put off.
1:29:37
Okay.
1:29:37
Yeah.
1:29:38
And Russell's still very, very active in in Parapsychology locally.
1:29:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:29:44
So you, you are still involved in parapsychology, te te.
1:29:47
Tell us what your involvement is there.
1:29:50
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:29:50
I'm not really anymore.
1:29:51
I'm not doing experiments or participating in experiments, but it's just kind
1:29:58
of having email discussions with my old buddies from the Parapsychology
1:30:03
research group and kind of tuning in.
1:30:06
But you
1:30:06
Rupert Isaacson: were part of the parapsychology research group at Stanford.
1:30:10
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:30:10
You're this, this wasn't at Stanford.
1:30:12
This was an independent organization.
1:30:14
Okay.
1:30:14
In San Francisco, the parapsychology research group
1:30:17
had nothing to do with Stanford.
1:30:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:30:20
Okay.
1:30:21
So when, when you say you're not doing experiments anymore,
1:30:25
does that mean that you were
1:30:27
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:30:27
I participated in some experiments way back when, where they put me in
1:30:32
a Faraday cage and had me hold copper cylinders and things like that.
1:30:37
I did funny things like that.
1:30:40
Can you
1:30:41
Rupert Isaacson: tell us a little bit more, that sounds ing No, I don't
1:30:43
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:30:43
remember.
1:30:43
They, they, for one thing, they didn't tell me what I was doing at the time,
1:30:47
but, but one thing that's interesting, a Faraday cage is a wire construct that
1:30:54
filters out all electromagnetic signals.
1:30:58
So.
1:31:00
Whatever happens in a, in a Faraday cage and gets transmitted to the
1:31:04
outside world, is assumed not to be based on electromagnetic transmission.
1:31:11
And 'cause for a long time people thought ESP was a, an electromagnetic phenomenon.
1:31:15
Okay.
1:31:16
But the experiments in the Faraday cages proved that that wasn't so
1:31:21
that ESP happened from here to the moon and within Faraday cages.
1:31:29
So, so when the
1:31:31
Rupert Isaacson: so is ESP, in fact quantum entanglement
1:31:33
just on a human level?
1:31:37
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:31:37
I don't know.
1:31:38
I mean, it could be, that's what exciting to me about the theories.
1:31:41
Right now, quantum entanglement has only been demonstrated in a laboratory for.
1:31:47
Subatomic particles, macro systems have not been shown to be quantum entangled.
1:31:54
So even though we feel quantum entangled with our spouses and
1:31:57
our horses and our cats, there's, there's no way to prove that.
1:32:01
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:32:02
But, but if, if microparticles have been shown Measured, yeah.
1:32:06
We of course are composed of microparticles.
1:32:10
Right, right.
1:32:10
A macro system is, many tiny things come together to make a big thing.
1:32:15
So there must be bits of us that are entangling here and there.
1:32:18
No,
1:32:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:32:19
well, it could be, I mean, a lot of parapsychologists who, who I think are
1:32:24
sort of materialistic in nature and, and epiphenomenal is it's say that the,
1:32:30
that the quantum reactions happen in the microtubules of our brain cells.
1:32:35
Right.
1:32:36
Rupert Isaacson: This is what I was hoping you were gonna get to
1:32:37
these, these recent studies that were published last year and Yeah.
1:32:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:32:41
The
1:32:41
Rupert Isaacson: work of, of Penrose, you know, 40 years ago, right here.
1:32:45
Yeah.
1:32:45
What, so tell us about this.
1:32:47
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:32:47
I haven't studied it too much because on the surface it, it doesn't, I'm
1:32:52
not really interested in the material basis for paranormal phenomena.
1:32:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:32:58
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:32:58
I don't, I don't see that empirically, it improves what we do because the idea
1:33:04
with all this is to get better at it.
1:33:06
Anybody can do it.
1:33:07
Anybody can do animal communication up to a point, just like anybody
1:33:11
can, you know, walk a mile.
1:33:13
But not everybody's going to win the Boston Marathon.
1:33:16
Anybody can, can learn to do animal communication and other, other
1:33:22
forms of paranormal activities.
1:33:24
It's something that we have in us.
1:33:26
It's, it's our, it's our birthright
1:33:29
Rupert Isaacson: right Now.
1:33:30
Some people would say, you know, it's very interesting, this one that, that
1:33:33
was born of indigenous communities especially working with psychotropic
1:33:40
plants that put you into an alter set of consciousness that allow you to have.
1:33:44
These trans dimensional relationships with the consciousness of
1:33:47
animals and plants and so on.
1:33:49
What's interesting for me is I, all my experiences with indigenous
1:33:54
people talking to animals and plants, were in the Kalahari
1:33:57
where no psychotropic stuff grows.
1:34:00
It's just not there.
1:34:01
So there is no ayahuasca, there is no magic mushroom, there is
1:34:05
no peyote, there is no fly arick.
1:34:08
It is not there.
1:34:09
There's no DMT.
1:34:10
So it's very interesting that these cultures without any drug also very,
1:34:20
very effectively seem to be able to figure out things like if you take this
1:34:27
particular lava of this particular form of beetle, when it's living under this
1:34:35
particular form of wild coffee tree.
1:34:39
And you heat it so that it's mucus melts into the shaft of your arrow.
1:34:49
Anything that you hit with that arrow will die, including a
1:34:53
giraffe, including your friend.
1:34:54
If you accidentally you know him, or if you put, you know,
1:34:57
if you absent accidentally rub your eye, you'll go blind.
1:35:00
But if you hit that animal with that poison, all you have to do to
1:35:05
neutralize the poison is cook the meat.
1:35:09
How now you couldn't get to there by a process of trial and error physically,
1:35:14
because everybody who failed it would die.
1:35:16
Like, and in those old, you know, people think, oh, there, you know, millions
1:35:20
and millions of people that, you know, they could have gone, no, there weren't,
1:35:22
you know, you're talking about places with handfuls of people by our standards
1:35:26
where if they were to engage in that sort of trial and error stuff with highly
1:35:33
toxic substances, they, not enough of them would live to tell the tale that,
1:35:38
that, you know, so it just, you know, so clearly there were other processes
1:35:44
going on and you know, of course I, like anyone who spent any time in
1:35:49
these parts of the world have seen many things where you just have to say, I'm
1:35:54
comfortable saying, I truly don't know how that happened, but I did see it.
1:35:59
Right.
1:36:00
Yeah.
1:36:00
Even away from the prosaic stuff, like just, you know,
1:36:02
punting technology like that.
1:36:04
Shapeshifting and all of these things that actually,
1:36:06
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:36:06
yeah, shapeshifting,
1:36:08
Rupert Isaacson: you know, one, I've been lucky enough to kind of be exposed to it.
1:36:11
And you, you, you begin to see why people do it and how they do it and
1:36:14
how they, but you, you know, they, they, they couldn't have come to these
1:36:19
conclusions through experimentally.
1:36:22
No, no.
1:36:23
There had to be somewhere bypassing that process.
1:36:26
And that's my question about quantum entanglement.
1:36:32
When you, when you look it up on Google, you can't find anything about alright,
1:36:37
then, you know, how'd you, how'd you, you know, entangle a, an electron then, you
1:36:41
know, or you know, if I'm having a, in the pub, you know, I've got is an electron
1:36:46
look, I've got an electron, there it is.
1:36:48
You've got an electron, let's entangle them in it.
1:36:50
And of course you can't, you know, and of course there's trillions of
1:36:54
electrons buzzing about in you and in me.
1:36:58
Why are they not all entangled?
1:36:59
How do we entangle one or two and not the trillion?
1:37:05
Others like,
1:37:07
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:37:07
well, there's your Nobel Prize, Rupert.
1:37:10
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
1:37:10
It'll be, it'll be me that proves that.
1:37:12
Right.
1:37:12
But I mean, so are there insights into that?
1:37:15
Like when, when they observe the quantum entanglement, did
1:37:17
they see how they got entangled?
1:37:20
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:37:20
No.
1:37:21
NN no.
1:37:22
I mean, so far it's, like I say, it's just subatomic particles
1:37:24
and, and it's a big mystery.
1:37:26
But did
1:37:26
Rupert Isaacson: they see, was there any mechanical process
1:37:30
whereby they got entangle?
1:37:31
Did they trip over each other?
1:37:33
Did they bash into each other in a particular way?
1:37:35
What did they do?
1:37:36
The
1:37:37
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:37:37
inner workings are not known.
1:37:39
They, it, they just, it's been,
1:37:41
Rupert Isaacson: they just observed it permit
1:37:42
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:37:42
experimentally, which was a huge, huge discovery.
1:37:45
Alan aspect did win the Nobel Prize for, for quantum entanglement.
1:37:49
Yeah.
1:37:50
But no, we don't know how it happens.
1:37:52
It, we, we believe, or we.
1:37:54
I'm, I'm not a physicist, but they believe it happens outside of space time.
1:37:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:38:00
That,
1:38:01
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:38:01
you know, you violated the einsteinian limit of the speed of light.
1:38:06
And so it's gotta be outside of space time.
1:38:09
It's some kind of geometric phenomenon.
1:38:13
See, geometric structure.
1:38:16
Why is it geometric
1:38:18
Rupert Isaacson: if it's violating
1:38:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:38:19
space time?
1:38:20
Rupert Isaacson: We think that, well that Yeah, that's true.
1:38:22
Becomes geometric
1:38:22
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:38:22
true.
1:38:22
Well I think there are geometries that don't involve space and time.
1:38:26
I, I, I don't know a better word.
1:38:28
'cause geometry implies dimensionality space time.
1:38:33
Right.
1:38:33
So something outside of space time.
1:38:37
And I think there are probably consciousnesses in the
1:38:41
universe that aren't melded.
1:38:43
That aren't seated in, in bodies and brains that function
1:38:48
like this all the time.
1:38:49
Yep.
1:38:50
And we're just, you know, think of where this is gonna
1:38:54
be a thousand years from now.
1:38:56
We're just at the very dawn of understanding that this happens,
1:39:02
but we know that it happens because of the aspect experiment.
1:39:06
Rupert Isaacson: So that answered the question that I was asking earlier,
1:39:11
which is where do you think the shifts in scientific philosophy are going?
1:39:17
And you know, you having had a bit of a front row seat of, of that in
1:39:20
Northern California over these years.
1:39:22
I think you just answered that, which is that, as you say, we're at
1:39:24
the dawn of understanding that the system that we live in is at once much
1:39:34
more complex and on another level.
1:39:37
Much simpler Yeah.
1:39:38
Than we ever could have imagined in that, when I say simpler, that we
1:39:45
can access these states and perhaps.
1:39:48
We'll realize that we always have been, and that many aspects of day-to-day
1:39:51
life actually are those, but that perhaps we could, rather than stumbling
1:40:00
over them inadvertently or not so much intentionally, we could more and more
1:40:07
make that a focus of attention and then do things which appear magical.
1:40:12
Now that, of course, you know, it is hilarious because, you know, any
1:40:15
self-respecting Native American or Kalahari healer would say, well, I
1:40:19
do that every or every day, mate.
1:40:20
Yeah, yeah.
1:40:21
As have my ancestors for the, but you lot us put all those people to the
1:40:27
stake for, you know, a thousand years.
1:40:29
And so you regard it as this huge deal.
1:40:32
But I think that what the difference is between that indigenous way of
1:40:37
doing it on a very effective way and training people in a spiritual
1:40:41
technology that accesses that c, marrying that with the deterministic.
1:40:48
M mechanically physical sciences, I think makes it accessible to the modern mind
1:41:00
and computing is the way that I think people can accept it best because we
1:41:04
are used to com computers doing magic.
1:41:07
I mean, if, if you, you and I sitting here on this zoom looking at each other, you
1:41:11
know, if that had been presented, that would've been something we would've seen
1:41:14
in like a Star Wars movie in 1977, right?
1:41:17
Yeah.
1:41:17
They'd have done something like that and we've gone, woo, you know, maybe
1:41:19
we'll be there in a thousand years.
1:41:21
I don't think we'd have quite thought we'd be here so casually in 40.
1:41:25
Right.
1:41:26
But it it is magical, isn't it?
1:41:28
I mean, I, we're effectively entangled here, aren't we?
1:41:32
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:41:32
Well, right, and quantum entanglement has moral implications too, because if
1:41:38
we understand that everybody is part of one consciousness outside of space
1:41:42
and time, you can't hate somebody.
1:41:45
You can't hate other people and kill other people.
1:41:48
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:41:49
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:41:49
Make war on other people.
1:41:51
It's, well, perhaps you still can, because you can just blind yourself.
1:41:53
Yeah.
1:41:54
The physics, sorry.
1:41:55
Rupert Isaacson: Perhaps you still can, because you can just blind yourself to it.
1:41:58
I mean,
1:41:58
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:41:58
well, that's what, yeah, it that, that, that part might take a thousand years
1:42:02
too, because, you know, all our, all our sci-fi movies like Star Wars and
1:42:07
Star Trek, they're still about evil forces all those years, conquest.
1:42:12
But, you know, quantum physics is the physics of love and the entanglement
1:42:20
as a philosophy is about that.
1:42:23
It's about connection.
1:42:26
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting that you say that because any, any healer
1:42:29
I've ever spoken to, whether it's been in the Kalahari where I know
1:42:34
them best, or other places where I've participated in those sorts of.
1:42:41
Things like little bits in the Australian rainforest, little bits on
1:42:45
the Navajo reservation, little bits in certain other areas of the world.
1:42:51
Whenever I've asked them the healer, you know, well, what is this force
1:42:56
that you're using this energy?
1:42:57
It's back to your Qigong thing, whether it's they say, oh, it's cheap, or
1:43:01
you know, the life force or whatever.
1:43:03
Yeah.
1:43:03
Or it's electricity, or it's what the bushman called norm, which is one of the
1:43:08
norm, which is one of those untranslatable words, but it it somewhere between life
1:43:13
force energy and wisdom and strength.
1:43:15
It sort of encompasses all those things.
1:43:18
But again, they all, they also, it's a sexual energy that lives at the
1:43:20
base of the spine and you can do things with it when you, when you ask
1:43:25
them, well, okay then what is norm?
1:43:28
What is key?
1:43:30
What is Kundalini?
1:43:32
You always get the same answer, which is.
1:43:35
What I've always gotten is, oh, well, Rupert, that's quite simple.
1:43:37
It's just love.
1:43:38
It's just that with a, with a certain training process,
1:43:42
you can learn to direct it.
1:43:45
Yeah.
1:43:46
So is is, is the quantum mechanics and quantum stuff like that
1:43:51
merely our post agricultural, post indigenous life culture.
1:43:57
Just coming back to the same conclusion that we actually had 300,000 years
1:44:02
ago and still did, which is that we can do things quite effectively in
1:44:08
dimensions outside of time and space as well as dimensions inside time and
1:44:11
space, and that these things are not so, you know, are not contradictory.
1:44:15
And it's interesting isn't it, that those early cultures who, which
1:44:17
are still around, don't make war as you say that they, they don't hate.
1:44:20
They don't.
1:44:23
And they're totally human.
1:44:24
They're not saints.
1:44:25
They just don't do that stuff.
1:44:27
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:44:27
Yeah.
1:44:29
We can hope, you know, we were all indigenous at one point
1:44:32
and then we kinda lost it.
1:44:34
But you know, there were, well, all children
1:44:36
Rupert Isaacson: are planet Earth, so we are still indigenous, even if we've
1:44:39
displaced others and being displaced.
1:44:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:44:41
And the mystical traditions of our, particularly our three most common
1:44:46
religions, you know, Christian mystical Christianity, Sufism and
1:44:53
Kabbalah within, somewhat within the structure of traditional
1:45:01
religions, have that, that spiritual yearning toward love and connection.
1:45:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:45:09
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:45:09
And, and are open to mystical experiences that we would call paranormal.
1:45:15
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:45:17
It does, and it does seem that that's always nature's direction that.
1:45:23
Hmm.
1:45:24
No matter how much you mess it up, it will go back to harmony.
1:45:27
If you cut your skin, it will heal.
1:45:30
You can abuse your liver massively.
1:45:32
I know I have in the past, and it will still reconstitute itself.
1:45:36
You know, the, the it nature wants to go.
1:45:39
It seems always in that direction of, for want of a better word, love.
1:45:43
I mean, your body loves you, right.
1:45:45
Your immune system loves you.
1:45:46
It, it behaves in a loving way.
1:45:48
It doesn't, that's why an autoimmune disease is such a, an anomaly when there's
1:45:52
a disruption like that because, well, even
1:45:55
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:45:55
that, it's trying to protect you with love.
1:45:56
Indeed.
1:45:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:45:57
Inflammation is just a protection maker in guided, but
1:45:59
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:45:59
that's, you know, that's a condition of consciousness too.
1:46:02
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:46:03
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:46:03
But you know, you think of the, the trees that need forest fires to open up
1:46:09
their cones and regenerate the forest.
1:46:12
Mm.
1:46:12
Nature healing.
1:46:14
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:46:15
So what's next for you?
1:46:17
You've got a nice equine therapy practice going there at or therapeutic
1:46:21
practice there going at Stanford.
1:46:24
And I'm gonna have you on the other podcast, so don't worry listeners,
1:46:27
don't stop jumping up and down.
1:46:28
We are going to ask her in much more detail about that over on Equine Assisted
1:46:33
World, and we'll do that in a few weeks.
1:46:34
So we will do that interview.
1:46:36
But where are you going now with your scientific life and your sort of
1:46:39
general, what, what's next for you?
1:46:41
You've led such an interesting self-determined climate so far.
1:46:45
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:46:45
The, well, a big part of my joy is teaching college students
1:46:50
everything we've talked about.
1:46:52
Medical Tai Chi starts next month and I just love.
1:46:57
Love teaching the college students about, you know, in the context
1:47:01
Stanford University teaching.
1:47:02
You know, on one hand we, sorry.
1:47:04
Rupert Isaacson: I love that you're at Stanford University teaching
1:47:07
medical Tai Chi that just makes it feel like the hippies won.
1:47:10
And I I love that.
1:47:11
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:47:11
Yeah.
1:47:12
Well I used to be a hippie card carrying, yeah,
1:47:14
Rupert Isaacson: I still am mate.
1:47:15
Still am card carrying, flag waving.
1:47:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:47:19
Yeah.
1:47:20
Yeah, I see you get the ponytail.
1:47:21
Rupert Isaacson: Proud to be, yeah.
1:47:22
Well there's lots of people who aren't hip ponytails, but Yeah.
1:47:25
Yeah, so,
1:47:26
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:47:26
so what I've beco over the years you know, I'll be 76 in two weeks
1:47:32
I've become way more open about who I am and what I believe.
1:47:37
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:47:37
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:47:37
So, you know, it's nice that the first half hour of medical tai chi is hardcore
1:47:43
science and scientific methodology and scientific reasoning and scientific logic.
1:47:48
'cause then I get to talk about how Tai Chi is.
1:47:53
Basically quantum somatics, I've come to call it.
1:47:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:47:57
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:47:57
It's how that, when we cultivate those energies, then we relate to the cosmos,
1:48:04
we see our place in the universe, and I've become, I've refined how I teach that
1:48:10
and how open I am about expressing that.
1:48:14
So that's always a work in progress, is how to teach that, how to express it,
1:48:20
how to make it more real and more fun.
1:48:24
Rupert Isaacson: I'm not at Stanford, but can I come and attend that course?
1:48:28
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:48:28
Oh, please.
1:48:28
Yeah.
1:48:29
Well, you should.
1:48:29
You should come and do equanimity and do our meditation ride bareback.
1:48:34
I would love
1:48:34
Rupert Isaacson: to.
1:48:35
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:48:35
Well,
1:48:35
Rupert Isaacson: you know, we have a really, really good
1:48:37
horse boy practice very close to you there in in Half Moon Bay
1:48:41
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:48:41
with Joel.
1:48:41
Yes.
1:48:42
Yeah,
1:48:42
Rupert Isaacson: Joel, the, the Square Peg Foundation.
1:48:44
And we were just together in Ireland a couple of days ago for our big
1:48:48
conference that we have there.
1:48:49
So she's doing amazing work.
1:48:50
She's, you know, mental health provider now for San Mateo
1:48:52
County, which is Silicon Valley.
1:48:54
Yeah.
1:48:54
So, yeah, I've got lots of reasons to go.
1:48:56
So let's, let's do that.
1:48:57
I'd love to come attend and see it in more detail.
1:49:01
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:49:01
That'll be in the spring.
1:49:02
Next class is in the spring, okay.
1:49:03
Okay.
1:49:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:49:04
Yeah.
1:49:05
Super.
1:49:06
Alright, well I look forward to more.
1:49:08
And in the meantime you've got books.
1:49:10
So if people want to read a little bit about your work and what you do, can you
1:49:16
tell people where the books are, what they're about and how they find them?
1:49:19
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:49:19
So they're all on Amazon.
1:49:20
The latest one is actually on Etsy as a downloadable PDF, the.
1:49:26
Book that I wrote for general people who aren't necessarily horse people
1:49:30
and aren't necessarily meditation people is just called equanimity,
1:49:35
stress reduction and emotional self-regulation in the company of Horses.
1:49:39
That's a paperback.
1:49:41
And it's also an ebook on Amazon and Etsy.
1:49:45
Just tell us the title again
1:49:46
Rupert Isaacson: a bit more slowly in case people have got their pens out.
1:49:48
Oh,
1:49:49
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:49:49
equanimity.
1:49:50
E-Q-U-I-N, een.
1:49:55
Imit, I-M-I-T-Y.
1:49:57
So you're
1:49:58
Rupert Isaacson: playing with the word e equine E playing with
1:50:01
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:50:01
equanimity, which is EQUA.
1:50:03
Yeah.
1:50:03
N-I-M-I-T-Y.
1:50:05
Okay.
1:50:05
And subtitle.
1:50:06
So that's, that's the general Stress Reduction and Emotional
1:50:10
Self-Regulation in the Company of Horses.
1:50:13
Okay.
1:50:15
And that's for the general readership.
1:50:19
And there's a manual to go with that called The Manual of
1:50:23
Somatic Horsemanship, which is an instructor's guide to equanimity.
1:50:29
And that's on, I had written a book called The Manual of Medicine and
1:50:34
Horsemanship, which teaches other people to replicate our Stanford program.
1:50:41
Mm-hmm.
1:50:41
And I was very gratified that about 20 other programs came out of that
1:50:45
all around the US and, and actually one in Belgium and Costa Rica.
1:50:50
So I'm hoping the same thing will happen with the Equanimity manual.
1:50:53
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
1:50:54
Well, we have our, you know, for those listeners who are
1:50:56
listening, this is August, 2025.
1:50:59
Next year, about the same time, September 26th, we'll be doing our
1:51:02
next neuroscience conference at, at Eastern Virginia Medical School.
1:51:06
So I think you need to come and be a speaker.
1:51:09
Be Beverly.
1:51:09
I think that'd be great.
1:51:11
Dr. Beverley Kane MD:
1:51:11
Yeah.
1:51:12
Yeah, that would be West Virginia was one of the places that did
1:51:15
medicine and horsemanship too, so.
1:51:17
Ah, there you go.
1:51:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:51:20
Alright.
1:51:20
Well, I think I, I think this is to be continued yeah.
1:51:23
Many threads to pick up, and we will go into your equanimity program in more
1:51:29
detail over there on the next podcast, but I, I'm so glad we got to look at what
1:51:37
has formed this and how you've gone from
1:51:42
hitchhiking with 35 bucks in your pocket to protest the Vietnam War,
1:51:46
to becoming a, a doctor, to becoming a professor, to becoming a computer
1:51:51
scientist, to becoming a corporate person there in Silicon Valley to eventually
1:52:00
the con the physics of consciousness.
1:52:01
I, I love it.
1:52:02
With horses thrown in the mix.
1:52:04
It's, I think it's fair to say you've, you are still living a
1:52:09
very, very self-actualized life and many of us are benefiting from it.
1:52:13
So thank you so much for coming on the show and I look forward to the next one.
1:52:19
Same.
1:52:19
Thank you, Rubert.
1:52:20
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
1:52:24
If you did, please help us to make more.
1:52:28
Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up.
1:52:32
If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson.
1:52:38
com.
1:52:38
And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with.
1:52:42
autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism.
1:52:46
There's a whole range of cool stuff.
1:52:49
Putting a show together like this is not an easy task.
1:52:53
If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page
1:52:58
and showing us some love there.
1:53:00
Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming.
1:53:06
So go to rupertisakson.
1:53:08
com and click on the Patreon link.
1:53:12
Not to mention our excellent merch.
1:53:14
Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool
1:53:19
rock and roll themed merch.
1:53:20
T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.
1:53:23
rupertisatson.
1:53:24
com, it's all there.
1:53:25
I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there.
1:53:29
In the meantime, remember, live free.
1:53:34
Ride free.