Latest / Beautifully Complex / 289: Balancing Act: Teen Independence & Parent Concerns, with Gabriele Nicolet, MA CCC-SLP

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289: Balancing Act: Teen Independence & Parent Concerns, with Gabriele Nicolet, MA CCC-SLP · Beautifully Complex

0:03
Speaker 1: This is the part that I really struggle with as
0:05
Speaker 1: a parent at this age, is straddling that notion of
0:10
Speaker 1: active parenting. I think of it as managing, right, the
0:13
Speaker 1: manager role versus a consultant or a coaching role in
0:19
Speaker 1: which you know, we maybe are providing some backstop for
0:23
Speaker 1: our teens, but we're not in charge of them.
0:30
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
0:34
Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
0:39
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
0:42
Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
0:46
Speaker 2: of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started. Hey, everyone,
0:54
Speaker 2: welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am super thrilled to
0:59
Speaker 2: have my friend Gabrielle Nicol back with us already to
1:04
Speaker 2: have a brand new talk about this parenting journey and
1:08
Speaker 2: the complex setties I think we're going to lean heavily
1:11
Speaker 2: into in this conversation about parenting teens, and I think
1:14
Speaker 2: especially teens who are getting close to adulthood, maybe have
1:20
Speaker 2: already reached eighteen, but are still with us in a
1:25
Speaker 2: multitude of ways, even if they're not with us in
1:28
Speaker 2: our home. Maybe they are still with us, and we're
1:31
Speaker 2: going to get more into that. But Gabrielle, would you
1:35
Speaker 2: start by letting everybody know who you are and what
1:37
Speaker 2: you do.
1:38
Speaker 1: Yes, my name is Gabrielle Nicole. I am a toddler whisperer,
1:42
Speaker 1: oddly enough, who has teenagers at home. So my son
1:47
Speaker 1: is twenty one, my daughter's eighteen, and so I'm living
1:49
Speaker 1: the dream, y'all. But I work with predominantly families of
1:53
Speaker 1: younger kids, certainly also with teens who are struggling in
1:58
Speaker 1: some kind of way. And I do that through a
2:01
Speaker 1: mix of group coaching, one on one coaching, and newly
2:05
Speaker 1: developmental consults for children under the age of five.
2:09
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, it's amazing what we think we're going to
2:12
Speaker 2: focus on. And then as life takes us in other ways,
2:15
Speaker 2: we try to become experts in those areas too, right,
2:18
Speaker 2: Like teens.
2:19
Speaker 1: Well, and it just kind of happens, right, because you've
2:21
Speaker 1: got to learn on the ground.
2:22
Speaker 2: Yes, And thank you for saying that. We do not
2:27
Speaker 2: let each other know as parents that we are all
2:30
Speaker 2: learning it together. None of us have it figured out
2:33
Speaker 2: before it happens. It's learning by doing and growing and
2:38
Speaker 2: reflecting and more growing.
2:41
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because I was having this conversation with
2:44
Speaker 1: my neighbor, parts of which we're going to have here
2:47
Speaker 1: in terms of like how hard I am particular, but
2:50
Speaker 1: also many parents find the teenagers And she was hilarious.
2:54
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, I never had trouble when they got
2:57
Speaker 1: to be teenagers. I found it very easy to let
2:59
Speaker 1: them go. I know, I'm like, are you out of
3:02
Speaker 1: your mind? But I'm also a person who said when
3:05
Speaker 1: my kids were toddlers, like that toddlerhood was great for
3:09
Speaker 1: me as a parent because I knew exactly what to do,
3:12
Speaker 1: or I thought I knew exactly what to do, right,
3:15
Speaker 1: And so people have different we all have different skills,
3:21
Speaker 1: and like different stages of parenting feel more or less
3:26
Speaker 1: intuitive for people sometimes and sometimes none of it feels intuitive,
3:30
Speaker 1: and so I just want to name that. Also, you know,
3:33
Speaker 1: like not every stage is hard for everybody, and sometimes
3:37
Speaker 1: every stage is hard for somebody. Yeah, and so you know,
3:40
Speaker 1: like it is what it is, and we can unpack
3:42
Speaker 1: some of it here because certainly there's there's like skill
3:45
Speaker 1: sets that we can apply.
3:48
Speaker 2: Yes, once we learn them, right, once somebody says, hey,
3:52
Speaker 2: you should focus on this or that or yeah, I
3:56
Speaker 2: just want to highlight for a second something that you
3:58
Speaker 2: just sort of said and kept going, which was, it
4:02
Speaker 2: is what it is. We don't have control over as
4:07
Speaker 2: much as we would like to have control over as
4:11
Speaker 2: parents or as human beings. And part of getting through
4:16
Speaker 2: the teen years or whatever age and stage is the
4:20
Speaker 2: most challenging for you is accepting that it is what
4:26
Speaker 2: it is. It's going to have some struggle, it's going
4:29
Speaker 2: to have some difficulty, it's going to have some discomfort.
4:33
Speaker 2: What can we control? What can we do? And we
4:37
Speaker 2: will get through it? Which was a lot.
4:40
Speaker 1: And I want to add because I had an experience
4:43
Speaker 1: that'll share in a second where it might feel terrible.
4:49
Speaker 2: M hmm.
4:50
Speaker 1: It might feel like ass yes, right, like really really bad.
4:57
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean and this is something I had
5:00
Speaker 1: to keep reminding myself of a couple of weeks ago.
5:02
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean anything has gone wrong. That doesn't mean
5:05
Speaker 1: I'm doing anything wrong. It just means that the situation
5:09
Speaker 1: sucks and it's gonna get better at some point, just.
5:14
Speaker 2: Not now, yes, like not in our time.
5:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's very hard when you don't feel like
5:23
Speaker 1: everything's gonna be all right to remember that it's you know,
5:27
Speaker 1: and people use the sky as blue all the time.
5:29
Speaker 1: You know, the sun is still behind the clouds even
5:33
Speaker 1: when you can't see it. Okay, that's a nice intellectual exercise.
5:36
Speaker 1: But I still don't feel good. So just naming that
5:40
Speaker 1: hmm right, and again like the answer is yes, I
5:44
Speaker 1: don't feel good, and that's a full sentence.
5:47
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. I was just talking about it intererject just
5:50
Speaker 2: a little bit here on one of the previous episodes,
5:53
Speaker 2: a couple of episodes back, maybe about the hurricane here
5:57
Speaker 2: and the experience here. And I started to get really
6:01
Speaker 2: upset by everybody saying Asheville strong or near North Carolina strong,
6:07
Speaker 2: because it felt so invalidating. I'm like, these people are
6:12
Speaker 2: taking showers in trucks after waiting for hours to do
6:16
Speaker 2: it once a week because they have no home anymore.
6:20
Speaker 2: Stop talking about how strong we are or how great
6:25
Speaker 2: it's going to be at some point in the future. Again, Like,
6:28
Speaker 2: let's talk about how bad this sucks and validate it
6:31
Speaker 2: for people. And I had this conversation with my kid,
6:34
Speaker 2: who completely disagreed with me, and that's fine. I love
6:39
Speaker 2: having conversations where we just that's where he shines. He
6:42
Speaker 2: can really, you know, argue like nobody's business, and he
6:50
Speaker 2: feels very strongly about you know, his perspective, right, and
6:53
Speaker 2: at times that's hard. But for this I was like,
6:56
Speaker 2: you know, I get what you're saying. Do you get
6:59
Speaker 2: what I'm saying? And he's like, oh, I guess yeah,
7:01
Speaker 2: But I think you know, people need hope, and I'm like,
7:04
Speaker 2: you're right, they do. But to me it doesn't feel hopeful,
7:08
Speaker 2: but to him it did, right, And so like teen
7:12
Speaker 2: years can be okay for you and suck for me
7:15
Speaker 2: and vice versa. Right, Like, we don't have to have
7:17
Speaker 2: the same experience as somebody else, but we have to
7:20
Speaker 2: be tuned in to what that experience is for each individual,
7:25
Speaker 2: I think, and we have to be sure that we're
7:27
Speaker 2: validating those emotions, even our own for ourselves. This sucks,
7:32
Speaker 2: and I'm going to validate it. And we have to
7:34
Speaker 2: be careful that we're not using language that some people
7:37
Speaker 2: and maybe it's only me in that situation, feel invalidated by.
7:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. It's hard not to struggle against the struggle, right,
7:52
Speaker 1: It's hard not to be anxious about anxiety, absolutely, and
7:57
Speaker 1: I think that's where I found myself a couple of
8:01
Speaker 1: weeks ago when so I'll set it up for you. Yep,
8:05
Speaker 1: my eighteen year old is doing a very long hike
8:09
Speaker 1: pretty much on her own for her gap year, and
8:12
Speaker 1: needed to come home for some emergency dental work and so,
8:16
Speaker 1: and then got an infection. So she is desperate to
8:19
Speaker 1: get back on the trail and she can't go. And
8:22
Speaker 1: so I'm in the position of like my brain was
8:26
Speaker 1: going cuckoo on, like is she going to get to
8:28
Speaker 1: be able to go back on the trail. Is this
8:30
Speaker 1: infection going to get worse? Are these the right medications?
8:33
Speaker 1: Is there another tooth and stuff? Like the loop was
8:35
Speaker 1: like boom boom boom right the whole time, And that
8:39
Speaker 1: was okay when she wasn't feeling well. So when she
8:45
Speaker 1: was feeling poorly, it actually was the appropriate ish response
8:51
Speaker 1: for me to be like overly taking care of her
8:53
Speaker 1: and protecting her, right, And then there was a moment
8:56
Speaker 1: where she started to feel better, and even like now
9:00
Speaker 1: I'm still hyper vigilant and she's feeling very of course
9:04
Speaker 1: because she's eighteen, so she's immortal, right, Yeah, so she's
9:10
Speaker 1: ready to go, and she has gone back, and I'm
9:13
Speaker 1: still kind of looping. Now. So the part that was
9:16
Speaker 1: interesting for me was, first of all, I was really
9:19
Speaker 1: struggling not to struggle against struggling, like trying to remind myself.
9:25
Speaker 3: Right, resist will persist. What we resist persists. So I
9:30
Speaker 3: was like trying to just go back to basics, get
9:34
Speaker 3: good sleep, and we'll talk about strategies in the second,
9:36
Speaker 3: I'm sure, and then not getting on my own case
9:38
Speaker 3: about it, and then also being very transparent with her
9:41
Speaker 3: about like, so this is hard for me, you know,
9:43
Speaker 3: blah blah blah.
9:44
Speaker 1: And she has a limited amount of tolerance for that,
9:46
Speaker 1: and that's all fine. But this is the part that
9:49
Speaker 1: I really struggle with as a parent at this age,
9:51
Speaker 1: is straddling that notion of active parenting. I think of
9:56
Speaker 1: it as managing, right, the manager role versus a consultant
10:02
Speaker 1: or a coaching role, in which you know, we maybe
10:06
Speaker 1: are providing some backstop for our teens, but we're not
10:10
Speaker 1: in charge of them. And anybody who has a teenager
10:14
Speaker 1: knows that the minute you try to be in charge
10:16
Speaker 1: of them, they're sneaking out, they're lying to you, they're
10:21
Speaker 1: doing stuff they shouldn't, even even though maybe they wouldn't
10:24
Speaker 1: do those things. But you know, we've inserted ourselves so
10:28
Speaker 1: much that they feel compelled to do that because they're
10:30
Speaker 1: at a moment of individuation. They have to go their
10:34
Speaker 1: own way. It's like biological right. Yes, So again, like
10:40
Speaker 1: spinning in that soup was very unpleasant. And so when
10:45
Speaker 1: you called and we're like, hey, let's do another podcast,
10:47
Speaker 1: I was like, can we talk about this because I
10:49
Speaker 1: need to talk about this.
10:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. And one thing that I heard you saying is
10:55
Speaker 2: like trying to balance our own needs with our kids' needs.
11:01
Speaker 2: And this is something I bump up against all the
11:04
Speaker 2: time too. I have two young adults who are at home,
11:08
Speaker 2: and I want to say, like, when you do this,
11:12
Speaker 2: this is hard for me, or you know, this is
11:16
Speaker 2: how this thing that is going on for you is
11:18
Speaker 2: impacting me. But as you said with your daughter, it
11:22
Speaker 2: is not well received. They're in their own soup and
11:28
Speaker 2: it's about that, right, And so how do we get
11:32
Speaker 2: our own needs met and sort of honor what they're
11:37
Speaker 2: telling us they need as well? When it doesn't feel
11:41
Speaker 2: good to us what they are telling us they need, right,
11:44
Speaker 2: it feels invalidating to us.
11:46
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what I did, which was to
11:48
Speaker 1: call a coach friend of mine and ask basically beg
11:50
Speaker 1: her for a session because and here's why, really, because
11:54
Speaker 1: in the moment, and I want to just acknowledge for
11:57
Speaker 1: folks who are raising nerdivision kids and who kids are
12:00
Speaker 1: still at home, and that's very intense, and it's intense
12:03
Speaker 1: over time. What I'm talking about here is like a
12:06
Speaker 1: pretty acute kind of situation. But when you've got the
12:10
Speaker 1: stressors that come up over and over and over again,
12:13
Speaker 1: I get it like you're in a hyperfunction land. Pretty
12:16
Speaker 1: much all the time. I was in hyperfunction land and
12:19
Speaker 1: I needed to come down from that, and I called
12:22
Speaker 1: my coach friend and I was like, please listen to
12:24
Speaker 1: me cry for thirty minutes about how this was terrible
12:27
Speaker 1: for me. And I think that that's really important, Like
12:31
Speaker 1: we have to siphon off the stress somewhere. And it's
12:38
Speaker 1: not that it can't be on our kids, but ideally
12:40
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be because it's actually not their responsibility to
12:47
Speaker 1: take care of our emotional needs. And I know that
12:51
Speaker 1: that's really kind of that might be something actually that's
12:55
Speaker 1: kind of controversial to say, but you know.
12:57
Speaker 2: That's what I was just thinking, yes, as you said it,
13:00
Speaker 2: because I.
13:00
Speaker 1: Think we have kids thinking that they should please us
13:03
Speaker 1: at some level, even if that's not a conscious thing,
13:05
Speaker 1: like maybe that's an unconscious thing.
13:07
Speaker 2: Mm hm. Well for me, when I get stuck in
13:09
Speaker 2: the cycle with one of my own kids, it's like,
13:12
Speaker 2: but don't you care about me? Don't you care about
13:15
Speaker 2: my experience? Like you are making something hard for me
13:20
Speaker 2: and it's not like you know, I'm doing your laundry
13:23
Speaker 2: and that's hard for me. Like I'm talking about stress
13:25
Speaker 2: and emotion, like you are spilling this over in a
13:31
Speaker 2: way that is really stressing me out and now I'm
13:34
Speaker 2: having a hard time. Right yeah, but I can't say
13:38
Speaker 2: that because for some reason, that's like you know, blaming,
13:43
Speaker 2: which it's not like that's not the intention, but that's
13:46
Speaker 2: how they hear it.
13:47
Speaker 1: Right, But it's also penny, not their job, right right,
13:53
Speaker 1: that's our work, it's not their work.
13:58
Speaker 2: We want them to care about other people. Oh right,
14:01
Speaker 2: that's where I at parent's getting stuck, Like I want
14:04
Speaker 2: my kids to care about what they do and how
14:06
Speaker 2: it impacts others, but they can't even do that for me,
14:09
Speaker 2: Like this is where our brains go. Right. I'm not
14:12
Speaker 2: saying that we should think that, but I can tell
14:15
Speaker 2: you that I have thought that, and then like I'm
14:17
Speaker 2: feeling blame and shame on myself and it's just this
14:20
Speaker 2: whole vicious cycle that can keep looping and looping. So
14:24
Speaker 2: where do we sort of where do we land with
14:27
Speaker 2: our kids so that everybody's needs are met? But maybe
14:30
Speaker 2: we're not looking to each other to do that.
14:32
Speaker 1: I think for me, I know that it's partly that
14:36
Speaker 1: it's like where else am I going to feel validated,
14:39
Speaker 1: to feel like I'm heard, to feel like I can
14:42
Speaker 1: spew about something and talk about how things should have
14:46
Speaker 1: been and could have been and would have been had
14:48
Speaker 1: they you know, my teenager not been such a jerk
14:51
Speaker 1: or whatever it is doesn't matter, right, So I think
14:54
Speaker 1: there's that like siphoning off the stress external to the
14:58
Speaker 1: parent child relationship. Yeah, and once we can do that,
15:02
Speaker 1: then we've got a little bit more clarity about who's
15:05
Speaker 1: doing what to whom.
15:08
Speaker 2: And in your situation with your daughter, like you were
15:12
Speaker 2: feeling like the situation was intense, like there's reason to
15:17
Speaker 2: be upset, right, She, on the other hand, is like,
15:20
Speaker 2: from what I hear, wildly independent, Like she's literally hiking
15:27
Speaker 2: what hundreds of miles through the forest on her own
15:31
Speaker 2: at eighteen, Like I wouldn't even do that now. And
15:35
Speaker 2: so her fierce and dependence and not wanting to freak
15:38
Speaker 2: out about what she thinks are small things is clashing
15:42
Speaker 2: with your feeling. But you're both valid.
15:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually I might be more right. Let's be clear.
15:51
Speaker 1: I have a fully cooked brain and she thinks she's immortal.
15:55
Speaker 2: Right, right again?
15:57
Speaker 1: But being right? Like who is it says this? There's
16:01
Speaker 1: like one of these internet psychologists who says you can
16:04
Speaker 1: be right and be alone, or you can acknowledge the
16:08
Speaker 1: other person's version of events and be in relationship. Yes, right,
16:14
Speaker 1: and so I would rather be in relationship with my
16:19
Speaker 1: daughter then be right about most things.
16:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's really hard.
16:28
Speaker 1: I like to be right.
16:29
Speaker 3: I really like to be right.
16:35
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Speaker 2: families using able now to secure a brighter future for
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Speaker 2: their loved ones. I just made a note about give
17:53
Speaker 2: and take because as you were talking about this, like
17:58
Speaker 2: my brain is going, teenagers want us to just give, give, give,
18:04
Speaker 2: but a good relationship air quotes is supposed to always
18:08
Speaker 2: be given. Take, But we're not supposed to take from
18:11
Speaker 2: our kids because we're the parent, right, Like we're just
18:16
Speaker 2: getting deeper and deeper into the This is a crazy
18:20
Speaker 2: situation for everybody here.
18:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I think where it comes. So if
18:27
Speaker 1: I go back to this like manager versus coach, consultant role,
18:31
Speaker 1: which clearly right when kids are tweens. It starts when
18:34
Speaker 1: they're young, yeah, and then goes up right, I think
18:38
Speaker 1: of the container like the life container for a child
18:42
Speaker 1: is needing to just get progressively larger, and that when
18:46
Speaker 1: they're chafing at the rules, for example, or like sneaking
18:50
Speaker 1: out at night or whatever, it is like it's a
18:52
Speaker 1: sign that the container's too small. Yes, And when you
18:57
Speaker 1: have a child who's got a neurological profile and a
19:01
Speaker 1: social emotional profile that is really disparate. In other words,
19:05
Speaker 1: they're like they're developing really really well in one area
19:09
Speaker 1: and really slowly, and we're kind of worried in another area.
19:12
Speaker 1: It's really hard to know where to land. So then
19:15
Speaker 1: you're navigating kind of multiple developmental stages in the same person.
19:20
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's.
19:23
Speaker 1: Again I'm not sure that I'm here offering any solutions.
19:26
Speaker 1: I think the main thing is validation.
19:27
Speaker 2: Validation, so much validation, right, oh much, You've just explained
19:33
Speaker 2: my teenage years to me, Like just now, I had
19:36
Speaker 2: the biggest aha because my container was definitely too small
19:40
Speaker 2: and tight, and I was definitely out there doing all
19:43
Speaker 2: the things I shouldn't, sneaking out, sneaking in, drinking, experimenting
19:48
Speaker 2: with all sorts of things. And it was because the
19:53
Speaker 2: rules were so strict and everything else was supposed to
19:58
Speaker 2: be evil. And so bad, and I didn't realize until
20:01
Speaker 2: just now, like I was just trying to find myself,
20:05
Speaker 2: and I was also railing against like, don't tell me
20:09
Speaker 2: what is bad, Like other people are doing these things,
20:12
Speaker 2: so why do you think it's so bad? Like And
20:14
Speaker 2: it's interesting because my sister and I joke about this
20:17
Speaker 2: all the time, like we landed as adults so far
20:20
Speaker 2: from what we were taught as kids as far as
20:24
Speaker 2: like beliefs and ideologies and that sort of thing. And
20:28
Speaker 2: I'm always like, I don't understand how we even got
20:31
Speaker 2: to where we are, But now it's interesting that my
20:34
Speaker 2: parents are sort of coming more around to where we are. Anyway,
20:39
Speaker 2: that's a whole like creating. My brain is going to
20:41
Speaker 2: get stuck and broken if I keep thinking about that.
20:45
Speaker 1: No, but listen, what we resist persists. Yes, right, So
20:50
Speaker 1: if we force children, who teens, who are in the
20:54
Speaker 1: process of individuating, who are growing up, who are distinguished
21:00
Speaker 1: themselves from their parents, and the only thing we show
21:04
Speaker 1: them is what not to do, which is essentially what
21:07
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Right, There's one way to be, there's
21:10
Speaker 1: one way to be, and it's this way. And they're like, well,
21:12
Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly be that because I'm my own person,
21:15
Speaker 1: let me sneak out, let me do all the things
21:17
Speaker 1: that I'm not supposed to do, versus and this is
21:20
Speaker 1: way harder, okay, like, oh my god, versus creating a
21:27
Speaker 1: larger container in which kiddo gets to experiment make mistakes,
21:32
Speaker 1: some of which are probably dangerous. But guess what. Sneaking
21:36
Speaker 1: out in the middle of the night and going drinking
21:38
Speaker 1: with your friends also dangerous, very particularly more dangerous if
21:44
Speaker 1: you don't know about it. Yes, So there's like this
21:47
Speaker 1: whole piece of like, are they not in danger because
21:50
Speaker 1: we don't know they're in danger?
21:52
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I was way more unsafe in those
21:57
Speaker 2: years than my kids because with my kids, I was like,
22:01
Speaker 2: I'm telling you everything I did so you can learn
22:03
Speaker 2: from me, and you can have your first drink here
22:08
Speaker 2: at home. Here it is, and you know all the things.
22:13
Speaker 2: Like I just came into parenting saying I'm going to
22:16
Speaker 2: be the most transparent parent there ever was, because I
22:19
Speaker 2: feared having a kid that was like me, that was
22:22
Speaker 2: out there doing all the bad things like I tell
22:24
Speaker 2: my kids all the time. We just had this conversation
22:26
Speaker 2: again this week, I should be dead. I took so
22:31
Speaker 2: many ridiculous, unsafe risks as a teen up until I
22:36
Speaker 2: was about twenty one, twenty two, And part of it
22:40
Speaker 2: was social anxiety. Part of it was just being in
22:43
Speaker 2: a super strict household, you know whatever, finding my way
22:49
Speaker 2: all the things right, but them not knowing that they
22:54
Speaker 2: did not know where I was. Most of my teen years.
22:58
Speaker 2: My parents had no idea where I was because I
23:01
Speaker 2: told them one place, but I wasn't there. We didn't
23:04
Speaker 2: have cell phones, they had no way to find me.
23:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, And now is what's interesting about that, and I'm
23:10
Speaker 1: glad you brought up cell phones, right, is like now
23:12
Speaker 1: we have the location services like activated on all the phones,
23:15
Speaker 1: and now it feels like we have control over location.
23:21
Speaker 1: We don't. First of all, we never had control. They
23:26
Speaker 1: were just smaller than us, so we had the illusion
23:32
Speaker 1: of control and we had physical prowess. Once your kid
23:36
Speaker 1: is of a certain size, control based stuff doesn't work
23:41
Speaker 1: anymore unless you've got a real rule follower, in which
23:44
Speaker 1: case you're creating a people pleaser and you can go
23:46
Speaker 1: on Instagram and look up people pleasing and see what
23:48
Speaker 1: that will rot? Right, Well, that will reak.
23:52
Speaker 2: Yes, that's not good, and that can backfire. It's not good.
23:55
Speaker 1: We don't want them.
23:56
Speaker 2: We want kids who think for themselves and have critical
23:59
Speaker 2: thinking skills them. So all these girls.
24:00
Speaker 1: But then part of that means we get to manage
24:05
Speaker 1: our own anxiety about their risky behavior, because we also
24:10
Speaker 1: know from lots of good child development literature that teens
24:14
Speaker 1: have to again as they individuate, they have to engage
24:18
Speaker 1: in the risky behavior and their systems need it. And
24:23
Speaker 1: so we can promote healthier risk taking, or we can
24:29
Speaker 1: try to shut down risk taking, in which case we're
24:32
Speaker 1: just going to augment and drive it underground.
24:34
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's just gonna be worse.
24:36
Speaker 1: It's gonna be worse. And so then we're just left
24:39
Speaker 1: with again our own thoughts and emotions and behaviors that
24:44
Speaker 1: we get to deal with because we're the only person
24:47
Speaker 1: we have any control over.
24:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's terrible news. And we don't always have control
24:56
Speaker 2: over ourselves. Let's be real. We all have the same
24:58
Speaker 2: nervous system that gets tucked right, and sometimes like you
25:03
Speaker 2: just need your kid to be in front of you
25:04
Speaker 2: for a while because you're going to freak out and
25:07
Speaker 2: potentially die if you just don't see that they're safer
25:11
Speaker 2: in front of you for a few minutes, right, Like
25:13
Speaker 2: it's real real life. We're yeah, we're giving a lot
25:17
Speaker 2: of real life here, Gabrielle. A lot of real life
25:20
Speaker 2: is coming out today. But that's what we need, Like
25:23
Speaker 2: we need to stop going on social media and seeing
25:26
Speaker 2: this article that says, if you just do these three things,
25:28
Speaker 2: you're gonna have the most well adjusted child in the world.
25:30
Speaker 1: It's not true.
25:31
Speaker 2: Shit, it's not true.
25:32
Speaker 1: But I will say working on yourself, working on your thoughts,
25:37
Speaker 1: working on your emotions, and tolerating your own negative emotions,
25:41
Speaker 1: and working on your behaviors, because those all those things
25:44
Speaker 1: are not the same, right, those are all like different,
25:47
Speaker 1: they all proceed from one another. But that stuff signals
25:53
Speaker 1: to kids how they're supposed to behave, how they're supposed
25:57
Speaker 1: to treat people, and how they're to think about themselves.
26:02
Speaker 1: And like that's where the rubber beats the road. It's like,
26:06
Speaker 1: how are we engaging in repair. I'll give you an
26:11
Speaker 1: example from a couple of weeks ago. My daughter was pissed.
26:14
Speaker 1: I was being overly over much, very extra. I was
26:22
Speaker 1: being very extra, and I said to her, I said,
26:26
Speaker 1: I am so sorry. I know that I am really
26:29
Speaker 1: being a lot right now. And I know it's very
26:31
Speaker 1: unpleasant for you, and I'm really sorry it didn't change
26:34
Speaker 1: my Did I attempt to modify, like like rein it
26:38
Speaker 1: in a little bit? Yes, okay, But you know, like
26:41
Speaker 1: all I could do is be like, I get it.
26:43
Speaker 1: I don't have to be defensive about it. It's true, yeah, right,
26:47
Speaker 1: And then I can just show up for her and
26:49
Speaker 1: be like I get it. This is and then she
26:51
Speaker 1: gets to give me grace back because I'm acknowledging that
26:56
Speaker 1: I'm being annoying. Right, I don't have to be again.
26:59
Speaker 1: You can be right and alone, or you can be
27:01
Speaker 1: you know, in relationship.
27:05
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And two like, I don't know. It's all
27:11
Speaker 2: about our stuff. It's all about our stuff, and whose
27:15
Speaker 2: stuff is? Who's right? Like, her concerns in that situation
27:21
Speaker 2: were opposed to your concerns in that situation, right, But
27:26
Speaker 2: they're both valid, as I said earlier, and they both
27:31
Speaker 2: need to be addressed.
27:33
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think the temptation is and I
27:36
Speaker 1: think it is also mine, like in this interest of
27:38
Speaker 1: being right is to like be like, well, my concerns
27:41
Speaker 1: are more valid than yours. I think that's really important
27:45
Speaker 1: what you just said. But it's they're not. They're just different,
27:49
Speaker 1: they're equal.
27:51
Speaker 2: It may feel more important to us, but it feels
27:54
Speaker 2: less important to them, Like whose feelings are right? That's
27:57
Speaker 2: what we're really talking about. Whose feelings are right? Whose
28:00
Speaker 2: feelings matter more? And the answer is there's no answer
28:04
Speaker 2: to that. Everybody's feelings mat are the same, but not
28:08
Speaker 2: to each other. Like you know, your feelings as a
28:13
Speaker 2: parent have just as much validation and wait as her
28:17
Speaker 2: feelings in that situation is the we won't call her
28:20
Speaker 2: a kid because I'm sure she's railing against that. You're
28:23
Speaker 2: a young adult, yeah, and you have to go elsewhere
28:27
Speaker 2: to have that met Like you know, she has to
28:29
Speaker 2: go and spill to her friends about how overprotective and
28:34
Speaker 2: crazy you are, and you had to go find your
28:36
Speaker 2: coach friend and get validated that yes, this is really,
28:39
Speaker 2: really hard and all you want in the world is
28:41
Speaker 2: to protect her, and she won't even accept that, right.
28:43
Speaker 1: Like, exactly, that's exactly it. That's exactly it, because we're
28:46
Speaker 1: never going to agree on that because we're we have
28:48
Speaker 1: competing ideologies there.
28:51
Speaker 2: And competing needs, Like your need is for her to
28:55
Speaker 2: let you help her, and her need is to not
29:00
Speaker 2: need your help. Those two things can't be met at
29:04
Speaker 2: the same time, right, That's why it's so hard, I think, and.
29:08
Speaker 1: I think this is where and we recently ran a
29:12
Speaker 1: Parenting teens Parenting Orchid teens group and it was so
29:18
Speaker 1: juicy and thoughtful. What came up in those discussions was
29:21
Speaker 1: essentially about this. It's like, but my kid needs my
29:25
Speaker 1: help to apply to college. My kid needs my help
29:30
Speaker 1: to stay on a deadline. And then the question becomes like, okay, well,
29:37
Speaker 1: you know, are they ready to go to college? Maybe
29:41
Speaker 1: maybe not? What's the level of support that they need?
29:45
Speaker 1: Are you the only person who can give that to them?
29:48
Speaker 1: Or can we set up a system? Like there's once
29:51
Speaker 1: we are in that situation, like there's there's so many
29:56
Speaker 1: things to unpack and look at. I think, particularly when
30:00
Speaker 1: we've got narrow diversion kids, because it's it feels harder
30:05
Speaker 1: and it's more sustained and like, you know, kind of
30:09
Speaker 1: a grind.
30:10
Speaker 2: My question in that situation is always like, how do
30:13
Speaker 2: you make it about them? Even if it's about us,
30:15
Speaker 2: how do we make it about them?
30:16
Speaker 1: Right?
30:17
Speaker 2: Like, how do we get them to realize and ask
30:23
Speaker 2: for help? But it has to be up to them.
30:25
Speaker 2: The more we push, the worse they feel and the
30:29
Speaker 2: more they build that big, lovely, shiny wall between us. Yes,
30:34
Speaker 2: And that was something I had to learn, really the
30:36
Speaker 2: hard way. My kid was like, you just need to
30:39
Speaker 2: leave me be, and I'm like, no, no, no, we
30:40
Speaker 2: have to fix this right now, right now, right now,
30:43
Speaker 2: come back here. Oh no, we're talking now, you know.
30:45
Speaker 2: And I had to get to a point where I
30:48
Speaker 2: could hear him and validate what he needed, even though
30:50
Speaker 2: it wasn't what I needed. In this roundabout way, it
30:54
Speaker 2: was going to come back to what I needed, right.
30:57
Speaker 2: So if he needed my help with something but I
31:00
Speaker 2: let him walk away and not take it, would he
31:03
Speaker 2: come back for it on his own? And if he does,
31:07
Speaker 2: guess what, it's actually helpful. But if I just spew
31:10
Speaker 2: it on him and he doesn't want it, all I'm
31:12
Speaker 2: doing is eroding the relationship. I'm not helping at all.
31:14
Speaker 2: I'm making things worse, right, And that maybe is sort
31:18
Speaker 2: of the secret sauce if there is one here With teams,
31:21
Speaker 2: It's like recognizing that if we stop pushing, we're actually
31:28
Speaker 2: going to be helping more. If we stop helping, almost
31:31
Speaker 2: we might actually be helping more.
31:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're one hundred percent correct. And I
31:37
Speaker 1: think that faith in like it will come back around
31:41
Speaker 1: at some point on a calendar.
31:45
Speaker 2: That we don't have their timeline on their timeline.
31:50
Speaker 1: I think that's really hard and also probably totally worth well,
31:54
Speaker 1: definitely totally worth doing, and then like necessitates all the more,
32:00
Speaker 1: like go talk to your friends, go talk to your therapist,
32:03
Speaker 1: go talk to your coach, go talk to somebody who
32:06
Speaker 1: is not your child about blah blah blah blah blah
32:08
Speaker 1: blah blah. They're never coming back and they don't listen
32:10
Speaker 1: to me and all of that stuff. Because when you
32:12
Speaker 1: go back to your kiddo and you're like, I'm here
32:15
Speaker 1: when you need me, gay, we're good.
32:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we can't look to them to meet our
32:19
Speaker 2: needs as parents, even when it involves them as much
32:24
Speaker 2: as we would, like, you know, can't that just be
32:27
Speaker 2: a symbiotic like right? Not how just this relationship where
32:31
Speaker 2: everybody feels great all the time, I know, because it's
32:34
Speaker 2: not real life.
32:35
Speaker 1: It's not how we work.
32:36
Speaker 2: Sadly, yeah, because we're human beings, right, Like I think
32:40
Speaker 2: I talk about this in every single podcast episode, but hello,
32:43
Speaker 2: we are humans, Like we have to start giving ourselves
32:47
Speaker 2: grace to be human. It's ridiculous the amount of pressure
32:51
Speaker 2: and stress that we put on ourselves for things that
32:54
Speaker 2: just you know, either don't matter or don't matter as
32:57
Speaker 2: much as we think, or we're gonna get there in
33:00
Speaker 2: some other way and it may not be the easy way.
33:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's so hard sometimes to number one, to
33:07
Speaker 1: be a human, number two to accept that that life
33:09
Speaker 1: is going to be messy. And then also right like
33:12
Speaker 1: we're here on the ground, like in our daily interactions
33:15
Speaker 1: and like whatever did you did you leave your socks
33:18
Speaker 1: in the dryer or not? Meanwhile, like and this is
33:21
Speaker 1: so it sounds so tried at some level, and it's
33:24
Speaker 1: so not like here we are on this planet in
33:27
Speaker 1: the middle of space, like orbiting a sun. Oh my god.
33:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, my brain goes there like oh oh, and I
33:35
Speaker 2: can't anymore. Yeah, yeah, I know, like what is the
33:39
Speaker 2: meaning of all of this?
33:40
Speaker 1: What is the meaning of all of this, of any
33:42
Speaker 1: of it? And then yeah, then you can have your
33:44
Speaker 1: own little existential crisis, but like it can for some people,
33:49
Speaker 1: maybe not for you, Penny, but it can sometimes just
33:53
Speaker 1: stop the little like you know, okay, the socks are wet, yeah,
33:57
Speaker 1: and not in the dryer. Perspective, oh well, little perspective
34:01
Speaker 1: sometimes maybe and sometimes not, Like sometimes people will hear
34:04
Speaker 1: that and be like what No.
34:06
Speaker 2: But also, even if somebody else's problem is bigger than
34:10
Speaker 2: yours in your head, yours is still a big problem
34:14
Speaker 2: and it's still valid how you feel because we do
34:17
Speaker 2: that too. Like I remember when my kid was diagnosed
34:19
Speaker 2: and I was just so emotional, so distraught. It's the
34:25
Speaker 2: end of the world. You know, his life is going
34:28
Speaker 2: to be not what I wanted it to be, right,
34:31
Speaker 2: And then I would say to myself, get a grip.
34:35
Speaker 2: There are people out here there whose kids are dying
34:37
Speaker 2: of cancer right now, get over it. And then I
34:41
Speaker 2: didn't allow myself to feel what I needed to feel
34:44
Speaker 2: by doing that, right, And I think that's part of
34:48
Speaker 2: it too, is like, however you're feeling is valid, period.
34:53
Speaker 2: I don't care what it is. I don't care if
34:56
Speaker 2: how you're feeling seems like it's the opposite of what
34:59
Speaker 2: you should be feeling in that situation. Whatever it's happening,
35:02
Speaker 2: it's valid. It is.
35:04
Speaker 1: And by the way, unless you're like making yourself feel
35:09
Speaker 1: it over and over and over again, that feeling it's
35:11
Speaker 1: gonna last about ninety seconds. Literally ninety seconds.
35:17
Speaker 2: But if you push it down, it could be ninety years,
35:20
Speaker 2: could be.
35:20
Speaker 1: Ninety years, correct, which is why I called my friend
35:23
Speaker 1: the coach, and I was like, I need to let
35:25
Speaker 1: this out, yes, because I didn't want it to be
35:28
Speaker 1: ninety years.
35:29
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's what our teens are doing.
35:30
Speaker 1: Right.
35:30
Speaker 2: It just struck me like our teens are sometimes letting
35:33
Speaker 2: it out on us, and if that's what they need,
35:37
Speaker 2: it's sort of okay, Like maybe they could do it
35:39
Speaker 2: in a better way, right, they could maybe do it
35:42
Speaker 2: in a way that felt more respectful, whatever, but it's
35:46
Speaker 2: still a signal that that's what they need. They need
35:50
Speaker 2: to tell somebody about this and how they're feeling. Yeah,
35:54
Speaker 2: so much acceptance. Thirty minutes packed with tons of acceptance.
35:59
Speaker 2: I hope, I hopeeople are I mean, this conversation has
36:02
Speaker 2: been like really insightful, like really insightful, like just saying
36:08
Speaker 2: the things that nobody says and nobody wants to talk about.
36:11
Speaker 2: I think we've said like a dozen of those, and
36:13
Speaker 2: that just gives permission for everybody listening. Yes, it's hard,
36:19
Speaker 2: Yes your feelings are valid. Yes your kid's feelings are valid.
36:23
Speaker 2: They probably don't go together, but you're going to figure
36:26
Speaker 2: it out and it's going to be great, and you're
36:30
Speaker 2: not screwing it up, even though you feel like you are.
36:33
Speaker 2: I could probably go on and on with that for
36:35
Speaker 2: a while.
36:35
Speaker 1: I love it, No, I so love it, all the feelings,
36:39
Speaker 1: all the feelings. And then, like Penny, as you were
36:41
Speaker 1: just talking, my whole system got really calm. And I
36:48
Speaker 1: know you do this for your audience, right. The reason
36:51
Speaker 1: people listen is so that they can listen to someone
36:54
Speaker 1: else remind them that they're okay. When we can start
36:59
Speaker 1: all so doing that for ourselves, when we get good
37:03
Speaker 1: at talking to ourselves as if we are our own
37:06
Speaker 1: best friends, that's when we really and I'm having an
37:11
Speaker 1: AHA moment here too, because I was not doing that
37:14
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago. Yes, I was not treating
37:16
Speaker 1: myself like my own best friend. I was like getting
37:19
Speaker 1: all my own case about blah blah blah blah blah.
37:21
Speaker 1: But when we can do that that, like, do you
37:25
Speaker 1: feel I don't know what you're feeling in You're like,
37:27
Speaker 1: my whole nervous system just went.
37:29
Speaker 2: The permission is just like it's either permission or validation.
37:33
Speaker 2: It always just makes my whole body go okay, I
37:36
Speaker 2: can do this. I've got this. It's okay, And like
37:41
Speaker 2: the circles all the way back to my getting upset
37:44
Speaker 2: about people saying Ashville strong, like I don't want to
37:47
Speaker 2: just say it's okay and have people here that we're
37:51
Speaker 2: saying that whatever's happening is okay, and however, your feeling
37:55
Speaker 2: is not valid because it's actually okay, but you're feeling
37:59
Speaker 2: like it's not. I'm not saying I'm saying that like
38:03
Speaker 2: it's validating the suck. It's validating how hard things are.
38:09
Speaker 2: That's what I think you and I are saying when
38:10
Speaker 2: we say it's okay, it's okay to feel however you feel,
38:15
Speaker 2: it's okay to have the hard times, because that means
38:18
Speaker 2: you're human. And I promise you all the other parents,
38:22
Speaker 2: if they care at all about their kids, are also
38:25
Speaker 2: having the same hard times. Maybe different hard times, but
38:28
Speaker 2: they're having just as much struggle. It just might look
38:30
Speaker 2: different than yours. But yeah, that learning acceptance and letting
38:35
Speaker 2: go of things changed me from like this body that
38:40
Speaker 2: was about to crumple with fibroa and all of these
38:44
Speaker 2: like I was in pain all the time, is stressed
38:47
Speaker 2: all the time, to Oh, I have some control over this,
38:52
Speaker 2: how I'm thinking and what I'm feeling, and like feeling
38:57
Speaker 2: it instead of avoiding it, I'm control this. How I
39:01
Speaker 2: go through this actually gives me some control over it.
39:05
Speaker 2: And that acceptance was the biggest thing that I could
39:10
Speaker 2: do for myself to feel better. And when I felt better,
39:14
Speaker 2: guess who else felt better? Everyone in my orbit? Right? Yeah,
39:21
Speaker 2: So teens are hard people. Yep, do work, Gabrielle, And
39:26
Speaker 2: I give you total permission to think it's really hard
39:29
Speaker 2: and it really sucks exactly, and to find your person
39:32
Speaker 2: to help you with it. This too shall pass, and
39:35
Speaker 2: to know that someday they will not still be a teen. Yep. Wow,
39:40
Speaker 2: so many things. I just hope people feel so much
39:42
Speaker 2: more validated and okay in some way okay about what
39:48
Speaker 2: they're going through. And you know, I will tell you
39:51
Speaker 2: the teen years for my kids were easier than earlier years.
39:56
Speaker 2: Like I really feared the teen years because of the
39:58
Speaker 2: teen that I was, and so it was a relief
40:01
Speaker 2: to me what happened. So like, every kid isn't going
40:04
Speaker 2: to be out there doing all these things, risking their
40:06
Speaker 2: lives all the time. Like, don't feel like if you
40:09
Speaker 2: have a child, they're going to go down that path,
40:12
Speaker 2: just I think understand and be aware, like be open
40:16
Speaker 2: to letting them go down the path they're going to
40:18
Speaker 2: go down, instead of telling them they can't, which is
40:20
Speaker 2: the point at which they do anyway. Right, here's your
40:24
Speaker 2: big lesson, Gabrielle. Tell everybody where they can find you
40:28
Speaker 2: and how they can learn more from you and feel
40:30
Speaker 2: better about themselves from you, and all of these things.
40:33
Speaker 1: You can find me at my website Gabrielle Nicola dot com.
40:36
Speaker 1: That's Gabrielle with one L n an E at the end.
40:40
Speaker 1: You can find me on the socials under my name.
40:42
Speaker 2: And yeah, and in the show notes.
40:46
Speaker 1: And in the show notes and on the Complicated Kids podcast.
40:49
Speaker 2: Yes yes, just forget to mention you will link that
40:52
Speaker 2: up and everything else at PARENTINGADHD Autism dot com. Slash
40:57
Speaker 2: two eight nine for episode two eighty nine. Thank you
41:02
Speaker 2: for like just showing up and being real. I think
41:05
Speaker 2: so many times we get an interview mode and we
41:07
Speaker 2: want to give strategies and all these things, and we
41:11
Speaker 2: honestly we really didn't get too many strategies. They're sprinkled
41:14
Speaker 2: in there. But this I think was so much more helpful.
41:18
Speaker 2: For where a lot of people are, and later we'll
41:21
Speaker 2: talk about Okay, what do you do? You know, sometimes
41:24
Speaker 2: you just have to get to kind of a grounded
41:28
Speaker 2: footing so that you can do those things. Thank you
41:31
Speaker 2: for being here again.
41:32
Speaker 1: It's always a delight to talk to you, Penny. Thank
41:34
Speaker 1: you so much for having me.
41:35
Speaker 2: Ditto. I'll see everybody next time. Take good care. Thanks
41:39
Speaker 2: for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you
41:43
Speaker 2: enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget
41:46
Speaker 2: to check out my online courses and parent coaching at
41:50
Speaker 2: PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at the Behavior Revolution
41:55
Speaker 2: dot com.