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“The Age Old Question.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, prosecutors inch closer to potential indictments of
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Nikki Haley officially becomes the first candidate to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: challenge him. for the Republican nomination. Democrats quietly and not
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: so quietly worry about Joe Biden's age. Michigan State Senator
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Mallory McMorrow joins to talk about passing gun safety legislation
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: after this week's shooting at Michigan State University. And Crooked's
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: own Hallie Kiefer takes us on a meandering journey through
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk's addled mind. We're covering a lot today. But first,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: some big news. We are excited to share that the
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: first book from our very own Crooked Media Reads is
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: available for pre-order today. The novel is called Mobility by
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Lydia Kiesling, who also wrote the incredible book The Golden State.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: We've been fans of Lydia's work for a long time.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I think friends of the pod are going to love
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: this book. Mobility is gripping and hilarious. It's one of
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: those novels you'll nag all your friends to read. It's
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: part coming-of-age story and part indictment of capitalism in the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: oil industry. It moves between Houston, Athens, and Azerbaijan. and
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: attracts themes of class, power, politics, and desire all through
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: the life of a very compelling character, Bunny Glenn. The
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: book has already earned outstanding early praise. Pulitzer Prize winner
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Geraldine Brooks called it, quote, a masterpiece of misdirection and
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: a cautionary tale for our times. Pre-order Mobility at crooked.com
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: slash mobility or wherever books are sold so you can
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: be the first to read it when it's released on
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: August 1st.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Can I nag you about this for a second?
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Please do.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: So I read The Golden State when it came out
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: a couple years ago.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: I loved it.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Of course, you read everything. Yeah.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: That's the point I'm trying to unsubtly make here. And
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: loved it. It's a great book. I was super excited
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: to find out that Crooked was publishing her follow-up. So
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: how do I, why do I have to wait till
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: it comes out? Can I get an early copy here, people?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Can someone get Dan an early copy of the book
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: and also maybe some more Dan merch that we have
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: now discontinued? Poor Dan, he's just, sitting up there in
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: the Bay Area looking for early books and merch with
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: his name on it. We can't seem to deliver either.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: So yes, anyway, and again, you should also go to crooked.com
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: slash mobility.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: If you're not me and you're going to have to
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: pre-order the book, then that's how you would do it.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: But we are all very excited and can't wait to
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: announce more Crooked Media Reads books in the future. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: one more thing before we start, because it's President's Day weekend,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: we will not have a pod this coming Tuesday. So
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: the next pod you'll hear will be Dan and I
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: once again next Thursday. But if you're hungry for some
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: content on Tuesday, you can go to the Pod Save
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: America YouTube channel and watch Tommy and Brian Tyler Cohen
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: do another draft this time of Fox News Outrages. All right,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: let's get to the news. A grand jury in Georgia
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: has found by unanimous vote that no widespread fraud took
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: place in the 2020 election, breaking news, and believes that
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: perjury may have been committed by one or more witnesses
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: who testified about Trump's attempt to overturn the election. But
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: that's all we know for now. Judge Robert McBurney only
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: released parts of the final report after District Attorney Fannie
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Willis asked to keep most of the findings sealed to
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: protect the ongoing criminal investigation and the rights of the
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: potential defendants in the case. She has also said, however,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: the charging decisions are imminent. Meanwhile, special counsel Jack Smith
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: is moving quickly in the federal investigation into Trump's attempted
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: coup and hoarding of classified documents in the last few days.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: He subpoenaed Mike Pence of Hang Mike Pence fame, Mark Meadows,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and Trump lawyer Evan Corcoran. That last one is interesting
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: because Smith is trying to get around Corcoran's claim of
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: attorney-client privilege by invoking what's known as the crime-fraud exception.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: which means that Smith believes that Corcoran's legal services were
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: used to further a crime. Dan, we didn't get him today.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Today wasn't the day. We thought that maybe we heard
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: that the grand jury, that some portion of the grand
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: jury final report would be released this morning. We thought
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: maybe the day would end with Trump getting frog-marched down
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: to a courthouse in Atlanta. No, we didn't actually think that.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: But anyway, we didn't get much. We got the intro.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: The conclusion and then this portion of the report where
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: they said that they do believe some of the witnesses
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: lied under oath. Anything more we can read into these
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: developments or do we just have to wait for Jack
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Smith and Fannie Willis to hold their respective press conferences?
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: It feels like we will continue waiting and what we
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: should do in the interim is just tweet at Merrick Garland,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: which seems to be what everyone else is doing this morning.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, is that what they're doing?
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people are very upset about this.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm sure he's reading all your tweets. He
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: also has.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Nothing to do with this specific thing, but that's neither
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: here nor there.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, keep bugging him.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: It's like that, remember that jelly bean container we did
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: to raise money for a fair fight?
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Merrick Erland has one of those in his office for
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: the indictment. So it just fills with tweets. When it
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: gets to a certain line, he goes to jail. Look,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I think there are a couple of in all seriousness,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: some interesting things here that could mean something, could mean nothing.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: But the fact that it goes out of its way
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: to point that some witnesses lied, and the fact that
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: the one finding of this report is that no widespread
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: fraud happened, which is a precipitating finding that they will
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: need in some of the potential charges that may come.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: So this does not mean that no one's getting charged.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: It very well may mean that someone is getting charged
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: at some point in the not too distant future.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: And it is interesting to speculate who may have committed perjury.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Some of the witnesses included Lindsey Graham, Rudy Giuliani. I
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: guess CNN's Manu Raju caught up with Lindsey Graham this
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: morning after the report was released and asked him if
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: he's still pretty confident of his testimony that he didn't
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: perjure himself. And he said, yes.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: For a brief second there, I thought you were saying
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: that CNN's Manu Raju had testified. I was like, why
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: did you get caught up?
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: What a surprise.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: The other thing that's interesting on the Evan Corcoran... part
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: of the Jack Smith investigation is that if a judge
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: were to find, were agreed with Jack Smith on this,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Trumple within one calendar year have had two attorneys in
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: two different crimes had their attorney-client privilege lifted because a
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: judge believed the preponderance of evidence showed that they had been,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: that they had committed a crime, which is just a
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: wild thing for the front runner for the Republican nomination.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And I realize it's tough to keep all the investigations straight.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: In the Evan Corcoran case, that seems to have to
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: do with the classified documents. Yes. Because it seems like
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: It's possible that when Evan Corcoran released a statement saying, oh, yeah,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: all the classified documents are back. Don't worry. We don't
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: have any more. He may have lied about that.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: He may have.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't know if Evan Corcoran committed the crime
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: or Trump used Evan Corcoran to commit the crime. We
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: don't know that yet. But Jack Smith thinks someone committed
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: a crime. We also know in back to the Georgia
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: case that Rudy and the fake, the potential slate of
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: fake electors, all received target letters, meaning that they were
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: informed that they have been targets of the investigation. That
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean they'll be charged or indicted, but it
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: does mean that the prosecutors in the case believe that
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: they may have committed crimes. There's also, we should say,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: no known communication between the DA and Trump and his
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: lawyers in the Georgia case, and Trump didn't testify there,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: so who knows. How do you think potential Trump indictments
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: might affect the Republican primary that has now begun in earnest?
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I think that probably a large group of Republican voters
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: will look at this and say, we cannot stand it anymore.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Our party is too good for this. They will toss
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Trump overboard.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: We're done.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: That's it. That's what we were looking for.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: We are the law and order party.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: We cannot have criminals in charge. We're out.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: What did Lindsey Graham say right after January 6th? I'm out.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Count me out.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: He's been pulled back in as many people often are
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: in two large crime syndicates. I think that we should
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: expect that the MAGA media, which is the most powerful
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: force in Republican primaries, will rally to Trump's defense that
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Trump is being persecuted by his political opponents, a Democratic
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: elected official in Georgia, the special counsel appointed by the
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: attorney general appointed by Trump's most likely Democratic campaign opponent.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: And there will be a rallying to– whether that rallying
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: will translate into actual votes, impossible to say. But I
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: think that there will be a– that his opponents will
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: rally to Trump's side in this environment, much in a
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: very different, completely unrelated context. But when the Republicans went
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: after Hunter Biden as part of the first Trump impeachment,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: all of Biden's Democratic opponents– came right in defense of
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden, rightfully so. Now, these are obviously two very
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: different cases, but I do think that there will be
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: a rallying effect around Trump from some of his opponents.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: They're not going to criticize him for it. I guess
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: it'd be a better way of saying it.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, it seems like there's
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: three options for each of these opponents. They can use
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: the indictments to criticize Trump. They can just defend Trump,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: or they can try to take a middle ground. Do
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: you think any of them try to take a middle
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: ground on this? And what does that sound like, a
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: middle ground on this?
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: It's too early to take the middle ground in this race,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: I think. But what a middle ground would be is
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: to put all of these legal troubles in the context
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: of the sort of baggage that Trump would bring to
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the general election and make him a more easy to
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: defeat opponent by Joe Biden.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you could see one of them saying, look,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to criticize the former president. All I
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: can say is that I'm not under any investigations right now,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: and I don't have that kind of baggage, and I
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: haven't lost– you could see one of them doing that.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Like Larry Hogan? Put aside Larry Hogan and Chris Sununu,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: if Chris Sununu were to run these sort of– have
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: as much chance of being the Republican nominee as you
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: and I. But of the people who are semi-quasi-viable contenders
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: for the Republican nomination, I don't think that any of
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: them will take that middle ground.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: You think Ron DeSantis just answers and goes right after
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the Justice Department? Yeah, 100%.
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I think that's probably right.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Or I think either maybe.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: So there's two ways that could play out. One is
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: to aggressively go after them as a point of offense
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: for your campaign. And the other one is just how
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: you're going to handle it in questions, right? Where you're
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: going to focus on your own stuff, but whenever you're
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: on TV, you're going to be asked about it. And
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: then you'll respond to it by attacking the Justice Department,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: the politicization of the Justice Department, all of that.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Well, here's a follow-up question. Who will write the first
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: take about how Jack Smith or Fannie Willis just handed
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Trump the nomination by indicting him? And why won't it
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: be David Brooks?
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Because it'll be Josh Kroschauer.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Shit. You got it. It's going to be Josh Krashoff
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: or Hugh Hewitt. I could see Hugh Hewitt doing it too.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And so I sort of went, there are any
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: group of people in the MAGA media could do it,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: but I was just looking for someone who is at
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: least theoretically and technically in the more traditional media. And
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: that's very clearly, I think. I can see that Axios
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: headline coming right now.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, now that we're into the Republican primary,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: let's do a quick update on the Mess America pageant.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSanctimonious.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: One might think that the prospect of multiple indictments against
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Trump would provide fodder for the twice impeached presidents would
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: be primary rivals. But alas, here's the New York Times
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: headline after Nikki Haley's campaign kickoff this week. They're trying
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: to topple Trump, but they barely utter his name. Haley
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: chose not to hit Trump directly in her speech, opting
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: instead for a series of implicit criticisms designed to persuade
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: Republican primary voters that it's time to turn the page.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Let's listen.
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: America is not past our prime. It's just that our
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: politicians are past theirs. We'll have term limits for Congress
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: and mandatory mental competency tests for politicians over 75 years old.
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: And I have a particular message for my fellow Republicans.
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: We've lost the popular vote in seven of the last
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: eight presidential elections. Our cause is right, but we have
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: failed to win the confidence of a majority of Americans. Well,
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: that ends today. We're ready. ready to move past the
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: stale ideas and faded names of the past. And we
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: are more than ready for a new generation to lead
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: us into the future. If you're tired of losing, put
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: your trust in a new generation. And if you want
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: to win, not just as a party, but as a country,
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: stand with me.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Wild that you came out swinging against Dianne Feinstein.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: It's so bad. It's so bad.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: What did you think of Haley's announcement video and her speech?
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Just verbal consultant drivel. Just terrible. It's a bunch of
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: sound bites that aren't connected together that don't ladder up
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: into any compelling argument for why her and why not
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: the others. It makes no sense. It's terrible. It is
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: absolutely terrible. It just goes to show the paucity of
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: political talent that she has and exists in the Republican
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: consulting class. It's terrible. It's a terrible speech.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, my next question was, what do you think
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: about her chances? But I guess I got the answer
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: to that, huh?
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Well, actually, I have a slightly different take on that.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: But I think there is one element about Nikki Haley's
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: candidacy that I think just goes to show how just
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: sort of misbegotten the whole endeavor is. You and I
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: worked for Barack Obama when he was beginning the process
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of running for president. I have been involved with other
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: people who were thinking of running for president, many of
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: whom didn't run, none of whom won other than Barack Obama.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: And the first thing you do in that conversation is
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: you ask what is known as the Roger Mudd question, right?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: That refers to a question that Roger Mudd, an NBC journalist,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: asked Ted Kennedy in 1979, why are you running for president?
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And Ted Kennedy just fumbled the question away that hampered
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: the rest of that presidential run for him. She has
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: no reason why she's running. There is no rationale that
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: is unique to her. You can see it in the–
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: her argument is generational. But her number one opponent is
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: not Donald Trump. It's Ron DeSantis. And Ron DeSantis is
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: of the same generation as her. In fact, he's 13
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: years younger than her. And so like what are you doing?
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Your argument is you're electable. You won a solidly red state.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis just won by a huge margin. a one-time
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: battleground state in this country. It's just there's no why
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: unique rationale for her. And so I think she is–
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: everyone who gets into the race has a low likelihood
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: of success. Like that's always true in every race. And
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: there is a world, and I think maybe this is
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: what she is thinking, although her team probably did not
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: think it out very well, is is it possible if
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: DeSantis and Trump hammer the living shit out of each
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: other that some third candidate could come up the middle.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: That happens periodically in individual states. That's how John Edwards
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: almost won the Iowa caucus in 2004. But there's no
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: historical precedent of that person winning the nomination, and you're
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: going to need something more than just to be the
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: person who is not getting– you're going to need something
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: more than just being the person who is not being
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: attacked at the exact right moment.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I just think she's not MAGA enough for a party
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: that is controlled by MAGA at this point. And that
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that Donald Trump wins. But like Ron
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: DeSantis is at least MAGA enough for most of the
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: party and can probably you basically you need a nominee
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: who can attract both the MAGA portion of the party
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: and sort of the college educated Republicans who are, you know,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: mega curious or maybe they're for Trump or maybe they're
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: never Trump or maybe they're sort of kind of for Trump, right?
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Like that, you need someone who can straddle both of
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: those factions in the party. And Donald Trump has obviously
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: done that in the past. I could imagine Ron DeSantis
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: achieving that. I just can't imagine Nikki Haley doing that. Like,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I think she had, I think she had a great
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: announcement for a 2012 campaign for president. That's what it
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: felt like to me. It that was when Mitt Romney
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: ran for the presidency and what she's trying to, you're right,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: it's generational. Barack Obama's campaign was also generational, but he
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: had a few more elements to the message than just
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: generational change. She's trying to say like, look, this is
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: a party of old white men. I am a woman.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I have an Indian descent. I confronted, you know, racial
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: division in South Carolina, although she never mentioned the most
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: what she's known for as governor, which is taking down
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the Confederate flag outside the state Capitol. I thought that
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: was fairly notable and cowardly that she didn't mention that.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Basically the, the 2012 autopsy report where it says that
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: the Republican party will only win if it becomes a
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: more inclusive party and starts like looking younger into the future.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: You can imagine Nikki Haley trying to run to be
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the leader of that party, but that party has been
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: gone for 10 years.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I think if Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis are, are,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: beating each other up in the primary, and there's a
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: potential for a third candidate. Again, I don't think it's
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Nikki Haley. I don't think that she's going to be
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: acceptable enough to the base of the party.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: There's two parts of this that I think are notable.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: One is, it's not just that she's not MAGA enough,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: and she's not. And she is betooks in between because
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: she's not anti-MAGA because she worked for Donald Trump and
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: covered up for him for years, but she's also running
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: against him. So you don't have a lane. You're not MAGA.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: You're not anti-MAGA. You're not really MAGA adjacent. What are you?
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is, it's also not that she's
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: not MAGA enough. She's not interesting enough. Like, what are
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: you saying that is different? She is rerunning Marco Rubio's
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: 2016 campaign. And that was an epic disaster.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and you mentioned she has this extra
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: challenge because she didn't just support Donald Trump. She worked
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. So that can be the same challenge
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: that Tommy and I talked about this on Tuesday, that
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence will have. This predicament was
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: fully on display during her post-speech interviews. Let's listen.
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: What specific policy areas would you say part with Donald Trump?
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: What I am saying is I don't kick sideways. I'm
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: kicking forward. Joe Biden is the president. He's the one
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: I'm running against. And what I'm saying is you don't
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: have to be 80 years old to be president.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: How would Donald Trump do on the competency test if
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: at 76 years old?
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: You know, I think he did great the last time
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: he did it. I have no reason to think he
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: wouldn't do well this time. President Trump is my friend.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: I was honored to work with him in the administration.
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: I thought he was the right president at the right time.
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: And that remains to be the truth. We had a
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: great conversation. I told him that I was doing this
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: because I thought it was time for a new generation.
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: I thought we needed to leave the status quo and
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: we needed to move forward.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Seems like she really nailed it, huh?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Are they not allowed to do prep before interviews? Like,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: can they just go, like, just dry run a couple
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: of likely questions that might come and prepare an answer maybe?
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, clearly she was not very prepared. What would
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: a good answer have been? This goes to what you
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: were just saying, which is the fundamental flaw in her
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: candidacy is the only argument for her candidacy is I'm
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: not as old as this guy. It's not even I'm
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: not as old as him and also he has a
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: lot of baggage. She's not even willing to say he's
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: got a lot of baggage.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, You could pick one– you don't need
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: to win the election on this question. You just need
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: to have an answer that doesn't make you sound like
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: a loser. So just pick one issue where you disagree
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: with him. It could be something completely minor.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And cite that, right? Like Donald Trump was– I was
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: honored to serve Donald Trump. It was a privilege. He
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: was a great president. He did these things. I agree
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: with him on a lot of stuff. That's why I
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: worked for him. But there are a couple of things
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: where we disagree. Here is one of them.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: It could be tax policy. The Abraham Accord.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be the Abraham Accord.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: It could be tax policy.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: It could be Chinese balloon policy. I don't know. Pick
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: one fucking thing and say it. Even if you wanted
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: to do it, it could be anything. It could be
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: absolutely anything. Just have an answer. It's just not that hard.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: But also, she does this stunt about the mental competency test,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: which is such a stunt and obviously an attempt– at
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: a sop to the MAGA base who all think that
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden is senile, right? And it's supposed to be
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: an implicit criticism of Trump's age. But then they ask
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: her about it. The Fox and friends ask her about it.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And she's like, yeah, I think he took it before
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: and he did great. So now you're saying that you're
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: a new generation of leadership, but that you think that
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump is competent enough to be president and run
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: for president again? Then why are you running against him?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: It is just, it is like, there is three-dimensional chess,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: there's chess, there's checkers, and there's whatever the fuck this is.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Because They obviously made a decision to pick an age
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: for the mental competency test that included Donald Trump.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Obviously.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: But then had no answer to the follow-up question about it.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Because if you did want to include Trump, you just
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: would have picked the age of 80, which is what
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden is.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Right. It's so bad. It's so stupid. But also, it's
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: a great example of this is why political stunts that
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: are dreamed up by a bunch of consultants in a
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: room don't ever work or mostly don't work. because they
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: are obviously bullshit. It's like a transparent attempt. It's like,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: it's always too cute by half. And when you, and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: it's fine in a speech, but when you have a
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: followup question, even from fucking Fox and friends, what was that?
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Brian kill me. Yes.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Fucking Tim Russell. I'm offended. I hate everything she stands for.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I hate everything she's done other than the one thing
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: she did. That was great. That she won't mention. But
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: as a political professional, I am offended by this campaign.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I feel the same way. I really do. What do
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: you think about the general reluctance to criticize Trump from
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: not just Haley but people like DeSantis? This is something
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: else we talked about on Tuesday. Tommy and I went
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: back and forth on this.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: I do not– if I was running a Republican primary campaign,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: which I hope I never am.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Then– But who knows?
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Liz Cheney, you call it? I'm kidding. I would never
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: do that.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Flip it, Elijah.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Flip it. I would not advise my candidate to criticize Trump.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: That's not what the voters want. I would advise my
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: candidate to differentiate myself from Trump in a coherent way.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: She doesn't have to– there's no argument right now to
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: come out guns blazing against Trump. You just have to
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: have some sort of answer as to why you, why
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: not Trump. On a debate stage– you and Tommy had
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: this conversation around DeSantis and whether he sounded like Jeb Bush,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: whether he should sound like Jeb Bush or whatever else.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: And I think he– DeSantis does not and should not
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: take debate from Trump now. On a debate stage, there
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: will be a test. Are you tough enough to do it?
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And Marco Rubio failed that test miserably in 2016 to–
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: actually to many people, to Christie, to Trump, to everyone else.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Marco Rubio, he thought he had a chance and
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: suddenly he just like finds himself disqualified. going back and
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: forth with Trump over dick jokes. That's what happens. You
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: start off the great Republican hope and then you end
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: up doing dick jokes.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You lose a dick joke competition with Trump. So I
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: don't think you should be out there criticizing him. Just
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: be a little more deft about why you, why not
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: him and be a little more specific. It does not
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: attack him. You should praise the shit out of him.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: It should be like a positive sandwich for Trump. Did
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: a great job as president. Everyone Republican should be grateful
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: for everything he accomplished and what he did for our party.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: He saved us from Hillary Clinton and all these other
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: things that you want to say that make your base
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: feel happy. And then say where you would be different,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: why you need him. And then implicit in that, and
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: even somewhat, I think, relatively explicit is the electability argument.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: You don't have to call him a loser, but you
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: have to say we can't afford to lose.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And she did, in fairness, she got into the
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: electability argument a little bit when she said, we lost
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: a popular vote in the last seven of eight presidential elections.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: But then- I think on another interview on the Today Show,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: she was asked about, you know, did Joe Biden really
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: win the election? And she went with the old, Joe
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Biden is president. And we know there's a lot of
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: weird things that happened in 2020 in the election because
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: of COVID. Which is like, okay, what are you doing?
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: What are you doing? All right. As fun as it
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: is to talk about the mess of a Republican primary,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: we should also mention that it's looking like there probably
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: won't be a Democratic primary. President Biden and everyone around
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: him has made it abundantly clear that he intends to
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: run for re-election today. and is in the process of
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: putting together a campaign, just about all of his potential
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Democratic primary opponents have ruled out running against him, including
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: two progressives who ran last time, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: In fact, progressives like Warren, Pramila Jayapal, head of the
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Congressional Progressive Caucus, and Ro Khanna are proudly endorsing him
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: when they've been asked. And yet, and yet, Politico's Jonathan
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Martin has a piece out today, Thursday, that reflects the
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: concern you hear from almost any Democrat you talk to
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: inside and outside of politics. People think Joe Biden is
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: too old to run again, but party leaders are afraid
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to say so publicly. Let's start there. Why do you
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: think Democratic officials are afraid to voice their concerns?
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: I don't think afraid is the right word. And let
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: me explain why. One, I think they all like Joe Biden.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: They have a lot of affection for him. They're very
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: proud of the work they did together over the last
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: two years. They think he's a good person. What's not
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: to like? And to his credit, Joe Biden has done
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: his small P politics incredibly well. There's an anecdote in
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: the Jonathan Martin story about Angie Craig, the Democratic representative
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: from Minnesota, who's one of the few people who has
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: publicly called on Joe Biden not to run. And she
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: was recently attacked in the elevator of her building. And
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: the first person who calls her, Joe Biden, right? He's
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: done that. And so they like him. Two, they know
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: he's running. They've been told he's running. And so to
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: what end would that criticism serve Now, would it convince
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden not to run?
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: No.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Would it possibly be used as fodder against Joe Biden?
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Were he to run?
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: And so it's like to what, like what would be
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the constructive nature of it? And then there is the
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: third question, which we will get to, which is if
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: not Joe Biden, then who?
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Well, that's my next question is, so perhaps it is
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: not constructive to be out there just, you know, worrying aloud,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: either via anonymous quote or putting your name on it,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: about Joe Biden's age, it would be constructive, you could argue,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: for someone to just go ahead and challenge him for
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the nomination. Why do you think no one has stepped
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: up to challenge Biden?
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Three reasons. One, primary challenges always come from the ideological flank.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Left for the Democrats, right for the Republicans. Joe Biden,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: while he has not done everything the progressives want, has
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: done a hell of a lot more than anyone thought
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: was possible. And so there is not room to Joe
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Biden's left for a viable primary challenge. And that's the
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: assessment of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, all the people you said,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: is how would you run to the left of Joe Biden?
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And he hasn't accomplished everything, but a lot of times
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: it's not for lack of trying. It's because of the
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: narrow majorities he has. Second reason why no one has
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: challenged him is that primary challengers always lose. Challenges to
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: incumbent presidents have always failed. In addition to failing, they
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: have invariably made that incumbent president weaker in the general election.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Of the four incumbent presidents in modern political history who
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: have lost re-election, three of the four did so after
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: facing a very vigorous primary challenge. Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter and Ted Kennedy, George H.W. Bush and Pat Buchanan.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And so there's an assessment that if I run, I
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: will lose. I will make it more likely that Donald
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Trump or Ron DeSantis becomes president, and therefore my future
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: in democratic politics is over. So it was like, why
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: would a J.B. Pritzker or Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: or any other people who would almost certainly run in
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: a world where Joe Biden was not running to undertake
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: what is likely a political suicide mission?
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Now, yeah, here's the thing. I completely agree that it
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: seems unlikely that a challenge would come from the left,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: partly because Joe Biden, as president, has done everything within
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: his power to pass progressive legislation or take executive action
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that progressives have wanted him to take. I think there
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: are probably a few things you could say, I wish
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: he took executive action on this or that. But in
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: terms of what is legally viable, and we don't even
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: know at this point if the student debt relief action
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: is legally viable, he has done just about everything he can.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: And then we all know, we've all gone through what's
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: happened in Congress. He's passed the most sweeping climate legislation
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: in history. The rest of the Inflation Reduction Act, what
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: it does for healthcare prices, what it does for prescription
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: drug prices, the COVID relief bill, the transportation bill, He's
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: done just about everything that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: would allow him to do. And he cannot get around
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: those two. So we have talked about this. So I
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: do think that's why Bernie Sanders has said, I won't
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: challenge him. That's why Pramila Jayapal said, I was skeptical
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: at first, but I'm a fan, you know, and I
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: hope he runs again.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: So you're not going to get the challenge from the left.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So then the challenge you could imagine that would be
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: a historical, considering what you just said, would be someone
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: who is younger than him. and shares basically Joe Biden's politics,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: or at least politics that reflect the record that Joe
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Biden has amassed somewhere in the mainstream of the Democratic Party,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: maybe a little more left than people had expected from Biden.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: And then you have a series of governors, right? The
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: problem there is basically exactly what we just criticized Nikki
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Haley for, which is the only real thing you can
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: say about your candidacy is that you are a new
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: generation and Joe Biden is too old. And that's it.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: There's not a lot of ideological differences. There's not a
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: lot of policy differences. You could probably find some small
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: policy differences here and there. But mainly you're talking about age.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Even electability is hard because Joe Biden just won the
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: last election. And Democrats did pretty well in the midterms,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: even though Joe Biden was pretty unpopular.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: The one time voters had an opportunity to render their
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: judgment on Joe Biden's presidency, they didn't. helped him expand
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: to Senate majority and have the most narrow House loss
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: in recent memory. So he was not rejected by the voters.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: It's just like, I'm not even sure what the electability
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: argument you would make is. So it's like, these people
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: are all smart. They all want to be president. They
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: would all jump at the opportunity to be president. They've
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: looked at it, and there's not a good, viable argument
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: that would give them even a modicum of chance of
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: success against the president and the consequences for taking it
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: on and failing would be disastrous to them personally. We
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: can have an argument about whether the party is strengthened,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the country is strengthened by a primary challenge. And that
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: very well may be. We have a small sample size
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: problem when it comes to presidential elections. There just aren't
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: that many incumbents who run for re-election. And therefore, you
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: can't draw some statistically significant sample from what I said
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: about how things have played out in the past. But
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: from the personal decision-making of those politicians— It's very easy
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: to see how you get to not running in this context.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about why the worry persists, because unlike
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of things we talk about on the show,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: it is not a worry that is limited to a
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: bunch of Washington insiders and pundits and strategists wringing their
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: hands and worrying all the time. Nearly every poll shows
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: that an overwhelming majority of all voters and a majority
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: of Democratic voters do not want joe biden to run
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: again and i have seen this myself in all the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: focus groups i did for the wilderness no one wanted
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: joe biden to run again and they were all joe
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: biden voters and they all had pretty nice things to
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: say about him and pretty nice things to say about
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: his record a lot of them were frustrated with the
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: direction of the country frustrated with inflation but they were
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: all concerned about his age sarah longwell has been on
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: this podcast and our bad on the clip there But
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Sarah was saying that she has done many, many focus
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: groups and heard the exact same thing. And she thinks that, like, yeah,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: and she said at the beginning, the part that we
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: cut out, that she is very grateful for Joe Biden
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: and thinks Joe Biden saved America and thinks that Joe
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Biden could, you know, beat Trump again, but that anyone
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: besides Trump that he'd have a problem with and that
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: she thinks that he would lose. Now, I don't necessarily
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: agree with that, but... there is a lot of data,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: not just in polls, but from like talking to people
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: where people are concerned about his age. So are Joe
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Biden and all of the folks in the White House
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and all the Democratic strategists who just are all getting
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: behind a second run, are they just out of touch
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: with the electorate on this?
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's worth just for a second unpacking
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: the age issue to what it actually means. And I
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: think there's four elements of it. The first is Is
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden too old to do the job now or
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: in four years? And there is no evidence to say
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: that he is. In fact, he has done a great
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: job as president. In the people who are in the
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: meetings with him, no one makes that case because you
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: would hear it. People heard it about Reagan in his
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: second term. But right now, as we stand here, Joe
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Biden can do the job and he's doing a hell
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: of a job at it. That is just a fact.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: The second is, is he too old to campaign vigorously
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: enough to win the election? Running for president is hard.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Being president is hard. Running for re-election while being president
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: is really fucking hard. Because you don't just go to rallies.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: You get off the rally. Your national security team has
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: told you that yet another balloon has arrived over the
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Hudson and you got to shoot it down. There's like
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of shit going on. And can he do that?
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: His State of the Union was clearly designed to show
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: people that he can. How he delivered it.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: And I think as we said last episode, and I
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: think he did it rather effectively during that.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Very, very effectively. That's a question. That's an unanswerable question
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: right now. And then the third question is, will his
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: age be a political factor? Not can he do the job,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: but can someone make the generational argument against him? Will
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: you be able to say he's too old for the presidency?
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: And as we sit here today, the most likely Republican
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: nominee is four years younger than him. And so in
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: that sense, it's not. And then the fourth reason is,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: and this really shows up in the polls, is There
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: is certainly a disconnect right now between Joe Biden and
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: younger Democrats. They are the group least enthusiastic about him running.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: They're the group who told pollsters that they're least enthusiastic
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: about the idea of him winning again. They were his
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: toughest constituency in the 2020 primary. And can he get
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: those people to turn out? Now, 2022 suggests some positive
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: evidence that he could, but that is ultimately the age question.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: And it's going to be on Joe Biden to decide.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: answer some of those questions throughout the process of it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: But it's hard to make that the basis for a
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: primary challenge. It's just like, as you said, it doesn't.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And we actually saw a purely generational argument play itself
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: out in the Massachusetts Senate primary between Joe Kennedy and
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Ed Markey. And once you got past, I'm younger than
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Ed Markey, Joe Kennedy, who we love and really have
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: got to know over the years, didn't have anything else there.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: And that's how you can see one of these, like
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: a Gavin Newsom or a J.B. Pritzker or a Whitmer
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: who agree with Joe Biden on almost everything. Like what
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: happens after that? You're old. No, I'm not old. I'm
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: not too old. I have experience. Okay, that's the end
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: of that. Where do we go from here? It gets
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: very challenging.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And also when you ask people, do you think
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: he should run again? That is a different question than
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: when you ask people, okay, he's running and it's Joe
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Biden versus Donald Trump, or it's Joe Biden versus Ron DeSantis,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: and then they have to pick. In all of those polls,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: it's much, much closer.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: They're essentially tied. They're essentially tied.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: They're all essentially. And I, again, back to the focus groups,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I noticed the same thing. Do you want Joe Biden
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: to run again?
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: No.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Do you want Donald Trump to run again? No. What
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: happens if it's Joe Biden and Donald Trump again? And
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: then just about everyone picked Joe Biden, at least in
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: my series of focus groups.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: I also think just on this, one more thing is
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: that You look at Joe Biden's approval ratings. You look
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: at some of the numbers we're looking at about lack
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: of enthusiasm from running and all of that. And that
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: all seems kind of scary. And obviously, we worry about
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: everything here. But I do think we probably have not
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: updated our priors to account for an era of historic
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: negative polarization where extremism is the central issue of American politics.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Because all the traditional fundamentals said that we should have
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: gotten our ass kicked in 2022, and we didn't. And
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: I think some of the same dynamics, it won't be
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: exactly the same because it's all going to be about
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden. It can't be all about Hershel Walker or
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: anything else in 2024. But there are, I think politics
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: has changed in a way that maybe might obviate some
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: of the traditional concerns you would have around some of
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: these numbers.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Well, on that note, the flip side of not a
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: lot of voters and Democratic voters being enthusiastic about another
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden candidacy is the there's not a lot of
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: people who are really angry about Joe Biden, right? Like
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: he does not, he is not as polarizing of a
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: figure as a lot of other politicians in either party
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: over the last decade or so. Like that's just a
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: fact of who he is. And so that could help
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: him to look, I don't want anyone to walk away
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: from this thinking that we are like sanguine about Joe
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Biden's candidacy here. Like, yeah, I worry about, the performance
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: in a presidential election again in 2024. Of course I
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: worry about this. But when you think about all the
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: other alternatives that we've just laid out, it's pretty clear, like,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: this is what's happening, right? Like, this is what's happening.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: No one is stepping up to challenge him. Progressives are
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: endorsing him. He has done a great job as president,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: I believe. He has passed a lot of what I
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: hoped he'd pass. He probably beat my expectations on his
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: legislative agenda. For sure. And so, you know, And so
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: that's what it is. That's what it is. And whether
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: it's Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis, this goes back to
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: the negative partisanship point, like whoever the Republicans nominate is
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: going to be a serious threat to this democracy, to
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: this country. And a lot of people are going to
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: be a lot worse off if one of them wins
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: the presidency, especially if it's Donald Trump again. So, That's
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: where we are. Anything else you'd like to add?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: That seems like a trap.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll talk about this again at some point.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: You're right to point out that we are not overly
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: sanguine about this, or frankly, anything. I'm not sanguine about anything.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: And if you were to say, if Joe Biden were
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: to come out tomorrow and say, I am not running,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: and we're like, Pete Buttigieg is the nominee, or Elizabeth Warren,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: or Kamala Harris, I'd be worried about all of them.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: If someone changed the Constitution and Barack Obama was going
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: to run again, I would be worried because invariably this election,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: no matter who is our candidate, who is their candidate,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: is going to come down to something like 100,000 votes
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: over five states. That's it. That's how it's going to be.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: It's going to be decided on the margins. And so
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: we're going to have to worry about everything. And it
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: may be in this situation that Joe Biden is old.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: It could be that Pete Buttigieg is young. It could
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: be any list of things. And so just this is
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the one that Biden is navigating. Other candidates would have
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: other things to navigate. And no one has made a
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: compelling argument that someone else is obviously more electable. Put
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: aside everything he's accomplished and the right to go finish
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: the job, as he said. But there's this candidate who
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: would definitely win in the wings that we're like ignoring
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: out of– so we can get Easter egg roll tickets.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Like that's not what this is, right?
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Are we going to get Easter egg roll tickets? Gee,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I'm going to go back and
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: edit this segment just to make sure. Okay. When we
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: come back, I will talk to State Senator Mallory McMorrow
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: about the legislation that she and her colleagues are about
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: to introduce in Michigan to promote gun safety. And we're back.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: This week, there was yet another horrific school shooting, this
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: time at Michigan State University, where three students were killed
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: and five more were injured. Joining us to talk about
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: what Democrats in Michigan intend to do about this now
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: that they've won back control of the state legislature, Senate
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Majority Whip Mallory McMorrow. Senator, welcome back to the pod.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: So yesterday, a big group of Michigan State students came
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: to the Capitol to demand action on gun safety. They
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: sat outside the steps in rows because That's how they've
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: been trained to sit during lockdown drills. You were there
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: with them. What did those students tell you?
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: It was really, really moving.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, first, it was one student organizer who asked
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: all of the legislators to come in front and sit
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: in front and just look at all of them, which
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: was really powerful. And then she asked anybody, any student
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: who was there who wanted to share a story one
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: by one to come up to the microphone. There had
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: to have been at least 100 kids who stayed out there.
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: And it was really cold yesterday and really windy, one
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: by one, telling their stories. And one of the things
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: that really struck me was how many of these kids
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: who just survived a school shooting have lived through another
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: gun violence event before, whether it was another school shooting.
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: A lot of these kids have just survived the Oxford
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: High School shooting 14 months ago. There's a kid who
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: survived the Sandy Hook shooting. And then everyday gun violence,
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: people who survived suicide attempts or have loved ones or
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: nearby neighborhood gun violence. And this is, it just washed
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: over you to realize how much of an epidemic this is.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: You also spoke at that event and shared that your
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: good friend's older brother was killed in the Virginia Tech
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: shooting in 2007. I was struck by what you said
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: at the end of your remarks that you felt powerless
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: after that tragedy. What do you say to young people
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: who may feel the same way today? I, you know,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: it's a hard thing because it was, as I said
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: in my speech, the older brother of one of my
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: closest friends.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: So there's always this kind of feeling of guilt that
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: it was a step removed from me. But this was
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: somebody I grew up with who I saw at sleepovers, who,
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: you know, when we were still in high school and
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: he was in college, we tried to get him to
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: get us beer. This was somebody I knew. And I
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: remember when it happened, just watching it play over again
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: and again and again on CNN and the news coverage
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: and seeing reenactments and animations of where the shooter was
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: and how he got into the classrooms. And then seeing
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: my friend's dad just screaming, in a photo that was
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: on the front page of the Washington Post and just
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: feeling paralyzed. And when I was running for office for
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: the first time a few years ago in the wake
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: of the Parkland shooting, there were high school kids in
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: my district who reached out to me, even as a candidate,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: not even somebody in office yet, and asked to get
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: coffee with me at 8 a.m. on a Sunday at
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: a Starbucks, which is not what I was doing when
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: I was in high school or when it happened to me.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: And they grilled me and they demanded to know what
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: I was going to do on this issue when I
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: got into office. That pushed me to push harder. And
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: it has happened slowly. But the reality is now we
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: have a Democratic majority in Michigan that got to a
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: majority that partially on gun violence, on all of us
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: committing to do something. So my message to all of
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: these kids or anybody is that you're not powerless. It
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: is night and day difference from Virginia Tech to now.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: And in Michigan, we are going to act.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about what legislation you and your colleagues
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: are preparing to introduce on gun safety?
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. The bills are being finalized and drafted and being
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: introduced right now, actually. We're on recess to go back
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: into session to introduce them. So there will be a
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: package of bills on three key issues, one to create
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: red flag laws, emergency risk protection order here in Michigan,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: as well as requiring safe storage of firearms when they
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: are not in use, and universal background checks. These are
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: pieces of legislation that we have introduced multiple times, time
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: after time after time, But we now, using the best
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: research and data from states that have enacted these policies already,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: our policy teams were already working on these before this
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: horrific event happened. But just credit to staff, who I
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: don't think ever get enough credit, stayed up long nights
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: all of this week to expedite the end of this
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: process to make sure that we could introduce them today.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: So for folks who don't know, it takes two-thirds support
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: in both chambers of the Michigan legislature to enact a
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: law immediately. If you have a simple majority, there's essentially
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: a waiting period of about 14 months. Do you think
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: you guys can get any Republican support on these measures
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: that'll be necessary to get to that two-thirds number?
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: I do hope we can. There have been some moments
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: in my time in the legislature where there has been
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: bipartisanship in the wake of the killing of George Floyd
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: and A couple of years back, there was a police
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: reform bill that even under a Republican-controlled legislature passed out
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: of the Senate unanimously in the wake.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Of that crisis.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: It ended up dying in the state house, but I
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: think that showed me that when it hits home and
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: when it is a devastating moment, there's an opportunity, there's
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: a window that opens up for us to actually come
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: together and put our differences aside. Michigan State is four
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: miles away from our state capitol. This has not only
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: impacted the families and the kids directly. This is quite
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: literally everybody's staff, everybody's family, everybody's kids. I mean, everybody
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: in the Capitol is affected by this. There were some
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: speeches today from both sides of the aisle about what
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: this meant to them. And this feels like it can
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: and should be one of those moments.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Do you envision any issues getting enough Democratic support for
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: a simple majority?
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: No.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: That's great. That's great. You know, as I said at
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: the outset, this is the first time in 40 years
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: that the Democrats hold a trifecta in Michigan. What other
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: pieces of legislation are you all looking to get passed
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: in these next two years?
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Oh, I think this is a whole episode in and
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: of itself. But I will say, you know, beyond this
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: is an issue that, again, I know some of the
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: opposition is going to say that that we are rushing
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: to introduce these bills in the wake of a crisis.
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: But I really want to reiterate, we've been working on
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: these for years and years and years. This was a
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: priority coming in. But we also signaled as a new
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: Democratic majority that we're tackling a lot. On day one
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: of this new legislature in both the state House and
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: the state Senate, we introduced six bills that include repealing
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: our 1931 abortion ban. expanding our state Civil Rights Act
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: to explicitly include the LGBTQ community, expanding the EITC tax
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: credit to support working families, repealing the pension tax, which
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: is something that Republican Governor Snyder taxed seniors' pensions in
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: order to give big businesses a $ 1. 8 billion tax break
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: back in 2011, and also repeal right to work and
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: restoring prevailing wage. So we came out the gates with
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: a big message that we're going to tackle kind of
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: democratic social issues and economic issues. And Michigan right now
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: is making the case that we are the anti-Florida The
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: governor said in the state of the state that bigotry
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: is bad for business. So we are addressing inflation issues,
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: making things better for people's pocketbooks, but also signaling to everybody,
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: you are welcome here in Michigan no matter who you are,
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: and we're going to protect you. And gun violence and
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: gun reform is a big piece.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Of that as well. So- You got national attention for
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: your response to a Republican state senator who accused you
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: of grooming and sexualizing children because you stood up for
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: LGBTQ kids. The Republicans running for president in 2024 seem
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: to be competing to see who can do the most
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: to marginalize kids based on their gender identity, sexual orientation,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: or what they learn in school. I think like Pence
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: is going to spend a million dollars in Iowa on
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: some parents' rights bullshitty thing. Donald Trump has a new
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: policy where he's going to try to ban gender-affirming care
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: for all minors. Obviously, Ron DeSantis has been doing this
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: for quite a while. What's your advice to Democrats on
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: how to handle these issues and this dynamic that we're
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: going to see play out in the Republican primary over
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: the next year?
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: Look, I think you just said it. I mean, these
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: issues that they're running on, they're bullshit. They are an
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: attempt to distract and make people believe that all of
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: their very real issues related to inflation or the economy
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: or jobs or education or whatever it is are somehow
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: somebody else's fault. And that somebody else, they seem to
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: be coalescing around the LGBTQ community and trans kids. It
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: is absolute horseshit. And Democrats should call it out, call
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: it what it is and make that connection. You know,
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: I think that's something that we did here in Michigan
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: and did it well. is point out that banning two
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: kids every year from playing soccer with their friends is
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: not going to do anything to lower your health care
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: costs or fix the roads or bring teachers back into
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: the profession. And I think if Democrats stand up and
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: show that, then Republicans have nothing.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: To run on. Last question before I let you go.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Speaking of 2024, could be a crowded primary to replace
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: retiring Michigan Senator Debbie Stabenow. You haven't yet said if
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: you're considering running for that seat. Anything you can tell us? No.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I had to try.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: I respect the attempt.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Senator Mallory McMorrow, thank you so much for joining Podsafe America.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: And good luck introducing the legislation in a few minutes.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: We'll let you go do that. Take care. Thanks.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: Before we go, Crooked Zone Hallie Kiefer is here. I
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: guess we're doing something with Elon Musk's tweets.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: We are.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 52:16
  Speaker 6: You know, we wanted to do a little twist on
• 52:18
  Speaker 6: the form and just to establish, you guys, you're over
• 52:21
  Speaker 6: OK Stop.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: We're over it.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Way over it.
• 52:24
  Speaker 6: And, you know, unfortunately, the audience loves it. They're constantly
• 52:26
  Speaker 6: asking for it. And you guys said, never again.
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: Don't even bother. Okay?
• 52:31
  Speaker 6: And it is sort of like, even though we've given
• 52:33
  Speaker 6: up on it, it's like the old story of Pagliacci,
• 52:35
  Speaker 6: the clown. You know, it's like, doctor, I'm depressed. It's like, oh,
• 52:38
  Speaker 6: I have something for you. Go listen to Pod Save America.
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: They've got a great segment called OK Stop. Doctor, I
• 52:44
  Speaker 6: am OK Stop.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: This is OK Stop. It's just a verbal version.
• 52:46
  Speaker 6: I'm just going to tell you the story. And then
• 52:48
  Speaker 6: you guys will say, OK Stop. And I was reading this.
• 52:51
  Speaker 6: And it is about Elon Musk. And going through this,
• 52:55
  Speaker 6: it really felt like I was telling a horror story.
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: And so I'm going to call this, again, we can
• 53:00
  Speaker 6: change the title later. I'm going to call it Tales
• 53:02
  Speaker 6: of Online Terror.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: OK? I like this. Because I'm going to tell you.
• 53:05
  Speaker 6: A spine-tingling story. And then you tell me when you
• 53:08
  Speaker 6: want to stop and scream.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: OK?
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: OK. OK.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Okay, before we go, did you guys watch the Super Bowl?
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Are you Super Bowl boys?
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if I... Yes to the
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: first question. No to the second question. Am I a
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Super Bowl boy? It's entirely subjective.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: It's totally subjective. But you had strong feelings about it.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: No, I didn't really have strong feelings about it. I
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: don't like the Eagles that much, but that's about it.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: Did you tweet at all? Were you putting anything on
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: the internet?
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: I did some tweeting.
• 53:33
  Speaker 6: Well, I personally watched only the halftime show with Rihanna,
• 53:36
  Speaker 6: and then I watched the Puppy Bowl, which is the
• 53:38
  Speaker 6: perfect amount of the Super Bowl. However, the story begins.
• 53:42
  Speaker 6: When cosmic flop, Elon Musk, discovered that his Super Bowl
• 53:46
  Speaker 6: tweet got less engagement than President Joe Biden's. And I'm
• 53:50
  Speaker 6: going to just describe the tweets to you because they
• 53:51
  Speaker 6: are just the most nothing tweets. These are not tweets
• 53:54
  Speaker 6: that people needed to know. Biden, it's a video of Dr.
• 53:57
  Speaker 6: Jill Biden in an Eagles jersey. And then Biden just says,
• 54:01
  Speaker 6: as your president, I'm not picking favorites. But as Jill
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: Biden's husband, fly, Eagles, fly.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Cute. Yeah.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: Totally benign.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Appropriate.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: Elon Musk.
• 54:09
  Speaker 6: This is the tweet that inspired this whole saga. Which,
• 54:13
  Speaker 6: by the way, he deleted in shame. Apparently, it's not
• 54:16
  Speaker 6: up anymore. It just said, Go Eagles! With six American flags,
• 54:21
  Speaker 6: which felt like it could have been a Biden tweet.
• 54:23
  Speaker 6: I was like, it could have been either.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: That's the most anodyne possible.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: For those of you keeping score at home, go outside.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: Don't do that.
• 54:33
  Speaker 6: But for us, who cannot do that, apparently Elon's pro-Philadelphia
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: Eagles tweet got 9.6 million impressions. So we're just talking impressions.
• 54:41
  Speaker 6: compared to Biden's 29 million impressions. According to a report
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: from Platformer, Elon was so enraged, he immediately boarded his
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: private jet, which, by the way, is destroying the planet,
• 54:52
  Speaker 6: flew to San Francisco and demanded his staff fix the
• 54:56
  Speaker 6: issue or they'd be fired.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: A fact that makes me want to destroy the planet, gentlemen.
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: Are your spines tingling yet? How does that strike you?
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Did he fly directly from the Super Bowl where he
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: was in a box with Rupert Murdoch? Is that where
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: he flew from?
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: Allegedly, yes.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw the picture of that. Wow.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Doesn't that feel like it should just be an email?
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Am I wrong?
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Doesn't it feel like you should not have had that
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: concern in any way? Because you're, what the fuck?
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: What's the point of over-leveraging yourself to buy a $ 44
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: billion failing company if you get poor engagement of your tweets.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think Dan's got the point.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: But he put in, but here's the thing. He didn't
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: put any effort into that tweet. That's the point of
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: owning the company.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: The rest of us have to think hard about what
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: can go viral. He shouldn't have to think hard. Could
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: you imagine if you owned a restaurant and had to
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: wait for a table? That's ridiculous.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: He is like the epitome of the tech founder personality
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: where you do something and you just are used to
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: everyone around you being like, oh, sir, that's amazing. Oh,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: you're changing the world.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Incredible. Incredible job changing the world.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I know this is about Elon Musk, but can I
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: just go on one slight tangent?
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: I feel like the White House lawyers are being overly
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: careful with Joe Biden that he, a guy who's grown
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: up rooting for the Eagles, can't just root for the Eagles.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's the White House lawyers or do
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: you think it was like his political team?
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Well, It's Kansas City.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: He doesn't need Kansas City.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the Eagles against the Atlanta Falcons, right?
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Or the Arizona Cardinals. This is a layup. Just be
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: for the Eagles. People will like that.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: He cares about red America, even if red America doesn't
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: care about him. That's Joe Biden's message.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, there you go. All right, back to Elon Musk. Sorry.
• 56:43
  Speaker 6: In the grave of night on Monday morning, Twitter engineers
• 56:47
  Speaker 6: received an urgent at-here Slack message that said, we are
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: debugging an issue with engagement across the platform. Any people
• 56:56
  Speaker 6: who make dashboards and write software, please can you help
• 56:59
  Speaker 6: solve this problem? This is high urgency. If you're willing
• 57:02
  Speaker 6: to help out, please thumbs up this post. Gentlemen, 80
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: engineers had to gather after this Slack message went out.
• 57:10
  Speaker 6: They gathered at the Twitter office to begin working through
• 57:13
  Speaker 6: the night. When was this message sent?
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: Tuesday. 36 a.m.
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: These people who are human beings with families, hopes and dreams,
• 57:24
  Speaker 6: sleep schedules, maybe even children, had to go do this.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: Is your skin crawling?
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: If you are still at Twitter right now, my question is,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: do you have hopes and dreams? Do you have sleep schedules?
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: You can't anymore, right?
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: I also want to know which engineers declined to give
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: the thumbs up emoji.
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: The ones that have one foot out the door.
• 57:46
  Speaker 6: The ones who are like, my fourth interview is tomorrow
• 57:49
  Speaker 6: and I'm pretty sure.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: So do we think that 80 engineers showed up at
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: Twitter headquarters, whatever's left of it, at like three in
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: the morning to try to start fixing this engagement issue?
• 57:59
  Speaker 6: I mean, I do believe that because I think, unfortunately,
• 58:02
  Speaker 6: that's where they're at. Now, if you guys were to
• 58:05
  Speaker 6: Slack me, I'd be asleep. I wouldn't even get it.
• 58:07
  Speaker 6: That's what's hard is like they got the message, which
• 58:09
  Speaker 6: means that they know that this is happening all the time.
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: That's the terrifying part.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they have sounds enabled on their Slack messages.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: In the general channel.
• 58:22
  Speaker 6: According to reports, Elon Musk then ordered his engineers in
• 58:26
  Speaker 6: the middle of the goddamn night to build a system
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: that boosted his tweets to all Twitter users or else
• 58:33
  Speaker 6: they'd be fucking fired. And then they adjusted the algorithm
• 58:36
  Speaker 6: that would, quote, green light all of his tweets to
• 58:39
  Speaker 6: bypass Twitter filters and boost them by a factor of 1,000. Basically,
• 58:44
  Speaker 6: his tweets were receiving special treatment that no other user
• 58:47
  Speaker 6: could ever or has ever received. And without any of
• 58:50
  Speaker 6: us knowing about it, are your bones.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: Chilled, gentlemen?
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: I am to the core.
• 58:56
  Speaker 6: Because this to me, at this point, it's insidious that
• 59:00
  Speaker 6: we don't know what's happening.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: So Twitter has become just like affirmative action for Elon
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Musk's tweets. That's the whole thing.
• 59:08
  Speaker 6: To go back to Dan's point about owning a restaurant,
• 59:11
  Speaker 6: it's like if Elon Musk bought a restaurant and then
• 59:13
  Speaker 6: he started making the chicken parm and then was mad
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: that everyone was like, this is not as good as
• 59:19
  Speaker 6: anyone else's.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: As Joe Biden's chicken parm.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: And so he.
• 59:22
  Speaker 6: Hired 80 chicken parm engineers to come in and not
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: even make his chicken parm better, force people to eat it.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: That's terrifying. Yeah, except he was making the chicken parm
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: with like hamburg and ravioli. Wait, there's no chicken in it.
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: There's no chicken. Is there chicken in it? No, it
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: just says go Eagles.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: I'm reading it.
• 59:43
  Speaker 6: So as a result, Elon's tweets then sort of insidiously
• 59:46
  Speaker 6: started taking over people's timelines this week.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: Not mine. I have them blocked.
• 59:49
  Speaker 6: When people started asking why his tweets were flooding their timelines,
• 59:52
  Speaker 6: he tweeted, please stay tuned while we make adjustments to
• 59:55
  Speaker 6: the algorithm. That makes me want to scream in horror. Gentlemen,
• 59:59
  Speaker 6: what are your thoughts about this? Like morally, ethically.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I don't have any moral or ethical
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: thoughts about Elon Musk because I think he left that
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: behind long ago. I have not noticed more of his tweets.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: I had like a fascination with. Probably bordering on a
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: bit of an obsession with Elon Musk and his terrible
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: tweets when he first took over the platform. I left
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: that behind a couple months ago. I haven't muted him
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: or blocked him, but I don't pay attention to his
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: shit as much anymore and my life's been better.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: And I think that is the problem.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, Dan, you wanted to take a shoot with what
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: I just said.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: I was just going to ask if the producers could
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: go back through your timeline and see when the last
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: time you shooted Elon Musk was. I think it was
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: like Saturday.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: Well, it was this. This was the first time in
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: a while because I heard about this story that you're
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: reading here. And it was bone chilling.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 6: Well, and then we could sort of talk about that
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 6: because that's also on my list that Elijah gave me.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 6: Basically sort of, you know, this isn't his only bad
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 6: recent take. You know, we have the whole Paul Pelosi
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 6: hammer story. That he just sort of carried water for.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: The classic, yeah.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 6: You remember when Paul Pelosi, an elderly man, was attacked
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 6: by a disabled with a hammer and everyone on the
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 6: right laughed about it? So he put out a tweet saying,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 6: some of the smartest people I know actively believe the press, dot, dot, dot, amazing.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 6: Even though he was posting from something that was just
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 6: pretending to be a news outlet. And so obviously you
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 6: had a reaction to it. And also you have a
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 6: podcast about being less online online. What are your, like,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: sort of like, I guess, like, what do you want people,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: what should people take from this? Or is it just
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 6: sort of like the raw icy terror at the whole thing?
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 6: It's just sort of like, I can't even, you know,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 6: talk about it.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: It's just such a, I mean, look, Elon Musk doesn't
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: want people to believe anything negative about Elon Musk. It's
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: so hard. It is just, we are reliving the whole
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Yes. Again, except he's like a poor imitation
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: of Donald Trump not running for office that just controls
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Trump's old favorite platform. And that's all he is, really.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: You know, and it is like he's running for just
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: our attention.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: And even that, he can't do it. No, he can't.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: That's the sad part. He paid $ 44 billion to get
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: our attention. And now he has and he captured it
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: for a brief moment. And now he's mostly lost it.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: And now he doesn't know what to do because he's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: just 44 billion in the hole.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: So I have three takes on this. One is, it's
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: deeply sad, right? Here is a person who was at
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: one point.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: But kind of funny.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny sad, right? Which is he was the
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: richest human being in the world at one point at least,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: who has built multiple successful companies, is upset that his
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: tweet got less RTs than Joe Biden's. That just speaks
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: to everything about how this gaping, well of insecurity and
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: emptiness inside this human being.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Which we can laugh at because he's the richest human
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: being in the world or was at some point. Second point, ultimately,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: who cares if we all have to look at more
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: of Elon Musk's tweets? It's not like Twitter was this
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: curated list of wonderfulness and now we've got to look
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: at Elon Musk's shit. But the serious part is if
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: he is playing with the algorithm, it's Elon Musk's dumb
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: tweets now. It's pro-Ron DeSantis content. later. It is something
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: else that fits with his... It could be something that
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: promotes Dogecoin or some other financial... There is an inherent corruption,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: which then speaks to the more important point, which is
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: if Elon Musk can make 80 engineers change the algorithm
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: to promote his tweets, then we need some sort of
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: regulation to prevent them from changing it to promote all
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: kinds of other corrupt and dangerous stuff. And that's where
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: this problem... That is the serious point to this absurd
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: story about an absurdly small human being.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: Or failing to get that regulation, which Probably we will.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Everyone should just sort of stop treating Twitter as the
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: media's assignment editor.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: And so that's what Mastodon is for.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: That's what Mastodon is for. Fewer tweets, more toots.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: I'm running over there.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: The end of the story is go sign up on Mastodon.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 6: And there's one, I think it speaks to your point, Dan,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 6: which is the final, apparently a story also reported by
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 6: a platformer. that Musk fired one of his last two
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 6: principal engineers after they told him his tweets were declining,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 6: partly because people just cared less. Like, it's like, you
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 6: bought it, the months have gone on, people are just
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 6: sort of not really, it's not like business as usual,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 6: but like, you know, people have all their stuff going on,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 6: and isn't that the most horrifying thing of all? And apparently,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 6: Musk had said, like, why are my tweets not reaching everybody?
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 6: And he told them, this is ridiculous, I have more
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 6: than 100 million followers, and I'm only getting tens of
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 6: thousands of impressions. And when this person tried to explain
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 6: to him how waning attention works, he told the engineer,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 6: you're fired, you're fired. Is this scary or is it
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 6: just humiliating or is it worse, a combination.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Of the two? I think it's the best day of
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: that engineer's life.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: They're finally free.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: They're free.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: They're finally free.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: They're free. Also, if that engineer would like to come
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: on offline.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: Please.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Please come on offline. We'd love to talk to you
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: about your experience at Twitter.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 6: And we just want to show you at the end
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 6: a very grim little video of Elon talking to his,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 6: I mean, honest to God, three of the remaining employees
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 6: who I really feel, I do feel for those people. Like,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 6: whatever situation they're in, it's like, it's not good. You
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: have to get up at three in the morning and
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 6: do something insane every night. And just, if you're listening,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 6: they're sort of in a sterile, blazingly white office space.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: Like, there's no color. It's on, the lights are so bright. Probably, again,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: ruin their sleep. And here we go. If you wouldn't
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: mind playing it, Phoebe.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: You create your own memes, though, don't you?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: Some of you create some memes.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: Your meme game is strong.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: Your meme game is strong.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I create some memes. I create some memes.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 6: Again, the richest man in the world, 51, has damn
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 6: near a dozen children. This is what we're doing.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: With our time.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Guy sucks. That's all I'll say about that.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you. The whole thing is an argument for more
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: touching of grass.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: And progressive taxation.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: Hell yeah.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 6: On that note, gentlemen, thank you for letting me tell
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 6: you this terrifying spine-tingling tale.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you for scaring the shit out of us.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: It's something about it. Thank you.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 6: It's better to laugh because if I think about it,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 6: I'm like, well, it's not good that someone could turn
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 6: out that way.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: It's not good at all.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: It's not good at all.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: Have that much money.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe billionaires shouldn't exist. On that note. On that note.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Hallie Kiefer.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: Of course. Thank you for having me.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: For telling us that bone-chilling story. Thank you to Senator
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: Mallory McMorrow for joining us. Everyone have a wonderful weekend,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: and we will see you next week. Bye, everyone. Pod
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner-Bernstein. Our
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: producers are Hayley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Sandy Gerard,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: slash podsaveamerica.