Latest / No Mess, No Magic / Writing for Approval Is Killing Your Creativity with Rachel May
Transcript
- Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the NoMass NoMagic podcast with Monica Hay. Today I have a special guest, Rachel. I'm very excited about this because Rachel and I are both chaos creatures. To give context for that statement, I was on her podcast with her colleague, how many months ago was it now? A few months. Rachel May: Yeah. ⁓ was that like December we recorded? I don't know, couple of, like three or four months ago. Monica Hay: Yeah, and we booked the call to record and we just talked and didn't record for what, like two and a half hours? Rachel May: pretty close to three hours, which was really fun. Monica Hay: It was very fun. But yeah, we are going to talk about something that I don't get to talk about a lot with people, but we're talk about like being a high achiever. And I like to call this Enneagram 3 energy, both Rachel and I are Enneagram 3s. And I'm very excited about this conversation because I don't get to talk to a lot of other Enneagram 3s in my life all the time. So I'm very excited. First, let me... Introduce you, Rachel. ⁓ Rachel May is a published author and powerhouse, I can't speak, coach who brings a refreshingly down-to-earth approach to writing craft, mindset, and process. As a writer with ADHD, Rachel is, why can't I talk? Rachel is intimately familiar with the frustrations that traditional writing rules can bring, especially for writers who feel like they don't fit the mold. Rachel's sessions go beyond typical craft lectures. about healing writing roadblocks, creating a process you'll actually want to stick with and building momentum toward the book you've always finished, dreams of finishing. So apparently I've had a lot of words come out of my mouth today. No, you're good. I just had meetings for like four hours just now, which is fine. How come Rachel? Rachel May: It's a long bio, it's alright. Thank you. I'm so excited about this. We had it scheduled, we had to reschedule it, and I woke up today being like, this is gonna be the best call that I have today. So I'm very excited to chat. Monica Hay: Yes. Yes. For those who don't know, we had the schedule for I think two or half weeks ago or three weeks ago. I woke up that I'm so glad I had us rescheduled because I woke up without a voice the next day. I could not talk. I was like, I can't talk. That's how sounded. Being ill is so fun. Okay. I am better. So we're going to talk about I can't decide what the topic like what I'm going to title the episode, but Rachel May: ⁓ no. That's crazy. I'm you're better. Monica Hay: we're gonna talk about Enneagram threeness, which is basically like being a high achiever, wanting to prove yourself, needing success, but also the downsides of that, right? So let me just like start some questions because I'm very, very excited to ask you these questions. As an Enneagram three, How did achievement shape your relationship with creativity growing up and even now? Rachel May: Yes, so I would say growing up, I excelled very highly in school and actually didn't like being that creative because ⁓ there was always this struggle of if I'm not good at it, then I don't want to do it because you know that that fear of failure, that fear of like that discomfort of not being good at something. ⁓ Truthfully, I Monica Hay: Mmm. Yep. Rachel May: I didn't experience it that often in school because like school was pretty easy for me. I skipped a grade. I was at like top of my class. Like school was not a challenge, but creativity was. And then when I was bad at creativity, there was all those uncomfortable feelings about like, you know, this is now I can parse it out. But at the time it was like Monica Hay: Mmm. Rachel May: Like I would raise all these emotions to my chest and I'd get hot and sweaty and I wouldn't want to show anybody and I'd feel a lot of shame about like, ⁓ I don't want people to see or hear me. I didn't want to be perceived if I wasn't good at it. And in that house that I grew up in, my parents are great, but. Monica Hay: Mmm. Thanks Mmm. Rachel May: academic achievement was how I felt like I earned their attention. So creativity on the other hand was like, ⁓ it wasn't ever gonna go anywhere. It wasn't ever gonna result in anything. So let's focus on school instead. And then, yeah, so like I had a really... Monica Hay: Right? Yeah. Rachel May: I would say tumultuous relationship with creativity. wanted to draw and I was bad at it so I stopped and I got in trouble in school for drawing so then I didn't do it anymore. And then I play, I've played music my whole life but if I wasn't like immediately good at something then I would put it down and my parents wanted to listen to me practice and it and like I would mess up. Monica Hay: Yeah. Mm. Rachel May: and like freak out and be like, no, this isn't gonna be good. So then I'd stop and do something else. So I wanted to achieve very highly, but the thing about creative practice or any type of pursuit of skill is that it takes time and it takes, you have to get good at being bad at it. And I did not do that until I was an adult. Like until I realized in my late 20s. Monica Hay: Mmm. Right. Yeah. Rachel May: Like I have a deep-seated fear of being bad at something because that would mean that like I was bad and I wasn't worthy of love and affection and value. So ⁓ I think me wanting to be a really high achiever made my creativity lessen. But I never let it go. Like I wanted to be creative so we came back, like I came back to it. Monica Hay: Mm. Right. Right? Yeah. Yeah, and so you said it was in your 20s that the shift happened, that you finally started doing what you wanted. How was that? How was the process of getting used to feeling like you were bad at it? Rachel May: Yeah, like I won't. ⁓ It was really hard. It was really hard. you know, I, so I went to college. I started, and this is all like kind of related. I started college as pre-med because I wanted to be a trauma surgeon. Cause I love that. That was like a passion that I wanted to do. But when I got like my first B in college, I swear to God, Monica, I had like a mental breakdown. I was like, Monica Hay: Mm. Rachel May: ⁓ my god, I'm not good at this. Like looking back, I was like, you gotta be in organic chemistry. Get like give yourself a break. But I was like, I gotta be I'm gonna fail. So I better switch my major. So I have this like moment where I had these two passions. One was medicine and one was reading. I really want read. Monica Hay: ⁓ my god. Mmm. Rachel May: And so I switched my degree to English literature and my parents had their own mental breakdown. Monica Hay: slip out. Not surprised. Rachel May: They were not pleased, but I was like, I'm doing it anyway. And I switched my major in my second year and I started doing English Lit and I finished college and I had a great time. I loved it. And I got into the workforce and I had... I worked for a startup company, which was amazing to build a company from the ground up. But any time that I struggled, like I encountered a, I got feedback from my bosses or whatever it was. Anytime I struggled, I would feel like a crisis of identity. I would feel like. Monica Hay: Yeah. Rachel May: And as I grew a little bit, I started to be like, why do I feel this way? Like, why am I so terrified of being told I need to work on something? Or why am I so terrified of criticism? And I was writing at the same time, but I hated sharing my work. I would only share it with my best friends who I knew would love it, but they weren't helping me be a better writer. They weren't writers. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Right. Rachel May: I grew a little bit more, I got married, and then I think like when Emily and I met, I was just pregnant. Or we met before I got pregnant, we started our business when I got pregnant. like... Monica Hay: Mm. Mm. Rachel May: shortly, like a month after we started our business, I got pregnant. And that time of getting to know her, starting a business, sharing my work with her, being pregnant, being a spouse, still working my full-time job, like I just had this moment where I was like, I am one bad word away from like losing my mind. And I can't write like this. I can't. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah. Rachel May: work like this and I realized I had such a big fear of of doing bad and I was like why am I so afraid of being bad and I read a bunch of books and I talked to Emily and I went to therapy and I like teased apart that I had equated being bad at some things to being a bad person and ⁓ realizing that All of what I was striving for was because I wanted validation and approval from other people. So that phase of like, I'm starting a business. I am in a major life shift. I'm still working my job. It was COVID at the time. I was like, I don't know what. I need to figure out why I feel like a big tangle inside all the time if I'm not getting like five gold stars and constant praise from everybody. So that's how started. It was really hard to get through that, but I started to realize I'm having all of these really big emotions. I don't know where they're coming from. I don't know what to do. Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Yep. Yeah. Rachel May: about them but I know that I don't want to keep feeling like this and it's not good for my creativity. I wanted to write and I couldn't. I kept hitting a wall of like it doesn't sound good, it's not right, the words aren't there, I don't know how to describe something like there were so many different excuses for whenever I face that question of discomfort I would just shut down. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yep. Yeah, I think that's really common, right? A lot of people think discomfort means stop. They're like, ⁓ that means like, I shouldn't do this, or it's not the right time, or it's too uncomfortable and it's too painful until they stop. It's really interesting because we're the same enneagram and we have very different... So, okay, Rachel was a smart kid. I was not the smart kid. If anybody... I don't think I talked a lot about it on the podcast, but I had... Rachel May: Thank Monica Hay: I was not diagnosed with ADHD until I was older and I was, I really struggled in school. actually, it was mostly because of math. Math was very difficult for me. I was a stupid kid all my life. Like, you know, the kid that like couldn't do anything right. I could not, I could not basically. And when I finally, I think this is where you and I relate a lot of like needing, needing like, external validation. When I finally got smart, like when I went to college and suddenly I was like getting praise for how smart I was and suddenly like, you know, I come from this background of like, I'm dumb, I'm worthless. And my parents never said those things to me. It was just cultural. It was just like, it was, you know, it was not my parents at all. But then when I went and I got accepted to Berkeley, ⁓ Rachel May: Yeah. Right. Monica Hay: for college, was like, ⁓ my God, have worth. Like I'm allowed to be a human now. Like I'm allowed to sit in a room of people who are important. And then from there, I just chased feeling validated for fucking years. Like, and it's taken me so long to be like, ⁓ like it's only been in last few years that I've realized like I was living for other people to be impressed with me. And Rachel May: Yeah. Exactly. Monica Hay: Am I happy about that? No, I'm not like proud of it. Like I'm, you know, I'm not like, yeah, I like what I want other people to like me great. But This is something I think that connects to a different point. It's a totally different question. So you write, can you explain what you write? First of Rachel May: Yeah. Yes, so I write now, ⁓ why choose mafia romance? So what that means is that mafia romance is a genre where your characters are in the mafia and it's very like larger than life. And this is not like real mafia stuff. This is pretend and fake and fun mafia stuff, right? But it can be gritty and it can be violent, but it's really not, we're not trying to be the mafia. We're trying to be. Monica Hay: Yes. Rachel May: the mafia, know, like fun. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Rachel May: I write mafia romance and I write why choose mafia romance, which means that my female main character has multiple romantic partners. So the idea is why choose one person when you can have them all. she has any and any of the books that I write in this genre will also be why choose. And in the past, I've written fantasy. I love fantasy. That's where I started writing. So I'm writing fantasy. I've written urban fantasy, ⁓ portal fantasy. and I think like Mafia Romance is a fun transition to that because it's like a made-up world in our world. ⁓ That's what I mean with like it's not it's fake it's fake Mafia. It's like fantasy. Yeah. ⁓ So I started reading Mafia Romance. I was like this is amazing. ⁓ Monica Hay: Mmm, yeah. It's fake, mafia. Yeah, yeah. Rachel May: and then I started writing it and I love YChoose. So YChoose is a pretty spicy genre. It's accepted that we will be having a lot of spice and a lot of like polyamorous spice and it's really fun. It's a fun genre to write. Monica Hay: Yeah. Hell yeah. So along with that question, because I know this is a thing. So most people look down on romance and smut and they think it's dumb, which you and I have had conversations about this. I've written a whole ass, if you're listening to this, I've written a whole ass rant about this on Substack. You should go check it out if you're listening and you're curious. wrote like, it's a whole thing. I wrote it in a rage one day after I saw this person's Rachel May: Yeah. Monica Hay: post about like why smut and romance and romantic are so dumb. I won't go into that. how did you learn? Because for most for most romance writers or people who write anything smutty or spicy, your writing scene is stupid from that to the outside world, right? Like if you go to a party and you're like, oh, I write romance, like, oh, you're like, like, so how has that journey been for you to claim what that is what you write? Rachel May: Okay, I gotta tell you a story. I recently went to a destination wedding for some very close friends of my husband and I. And I was talking to one of the people at the wedding. I don't know them, total stranger. Just another person at this wedding. And she was a little bit older. And ⁓ she was talking to me. She seemed so kind and like was asking me all these questions and we were having this really great conversation. Monica Hay: Aw. Rachel May: She had heard from someone else that I'm an author, so she asked me, you're an author, what do you write? And I usually default to romance because it's easier. And she was like, ⁓ that's fun. What kind of romance? And now we have been talking for maybe five to 10 minutes. ⁓ I felt pretty safe saying what I write. So I said, I write, why choose mafia romance? And she was like, what's that? When my girl character has multiple romantic partners, she went, ew. Just straight to my face. Ew, I don't believe in that. I was like, okay, I will see you later. It was like, and that was the first time in quite a long time that someone had given me such a negative visceral reaction of such displeasure and such like disapproval. Monica Hay: here. Rachel May: And this was like last month, so about a month ago. And it was not a big deal to me. I just brushed it off. I thought it was funny because normally I'm not so forthcoming about it with strangers because I don't want those. I don't give a fuck, but I don't want those reactions. I don't want... Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to see it or deal with it. Rachel May: Exactly now the me of like five years ago probably would have had this moment of intense defensiveness to be like I explain Why I'm writing this and how I got there and how like really this is just about a lot of people loving each other Like it's not rooted in the smut. The smut is part of it The spice scenes are part of it, but it's really a group people that like I would have gone on this tirade about explaining like Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mmm. Rachel May: why I feel so like why I feel so much love for this genre and how it makes a lot of people feel very seen and it's not about the romantic partners it's about knowing that everyone around you is gonna love you no matter what I mean really that's what it means for me so Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Rachel May: With this woman, didn't do that, I didn't feel the need to, but I would have before. since I have done all this work in like detaching my need for validation to like my joy in writing, that's the difference. Like I don't... Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rachel May: I don't need this. This woman's never gonna read my books. I don't care. They make me happy. I think they're funny. I think they're intense. I think they're violent and I think they're full of conflict and they're full of a bunch of love and they make me happy. And the me now, that's all that I care about. And I care about like my ideal reader and like the people that have that are part of my author community and that that the readers that I know like I love those people. But outside of that group, I don't give a fuck. Think whatever you want. Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Rachel May: Like, I have spent so much of my life searching for validation and feeling really unhappy and feeling that intensity of distress and that need to prove that what I'm doing is okay, trust me, please like me. And when I separated from that and did a lot of work to learn how to love myself as a person. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Rachel May: Like, love who I am with my ADHD diagnosis. Love who I am as a coach. Love who I am as a mother, as a parent, as a spouse, ⁓ as a girl. I'm just a girl. I'm just a girl. Girl! So like, learning how to love myself allowed me to separate out a lot of that need for approval. So I definitely don't mind telling people what I write. ⁓ Monica Hay: I'm just a girl. Yeah. Rachel May: I don't like to talk about it with people that are so, like this woman was such a stranger, I will never see her again, I'll talk about it with her. I don't like talking about it with my family perhaps, or the members of my family that I know will be uncomfortable with it. And it's not because I know they'll disapprove, it's just because I also don't wanna invite that conversation and I don't have to. So. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah, it's like not their business. It's like not your responsibility to deal with their feelings about it. Rachel May: It's not in the... Exactly. So we'll both continue to live unbothered by the fact that you don't know what I do. And we're all happy with that. So I also will, like the members of my family who do know, I'll tell them don't read it. I don't want you to it. Like, it's not for you. No hard feelings. I know you won't like it. And don't even try. I would rather you not read it than read it and push your disapproval on me, because I don't care. So just let's keep this boundary here. Please don't. Monica Hay: Right. Mmm. Yeah, but like how did you get to that point? Because you said a lot of therapy. I feel like so many people are at this point where what you just said is true for them, but they're not at the point where they have like enough of the self-love and the self-like reassurance that they don't need the validation. Like how did you get there? Rachel May: Okay, so I think changing your mindset has a lot of, there are a lot of tools to do it. And I've used many of the tools at some point, some longer than others. But what really helped me was when I woke up one day and I was like, I am deeply driven by this need for approval, why? I had to explore a lot of my own, Background a lot of my own childhood a lot of those own beliefs and you you have to follow the train of thought so like why am I? What what would have taught me this belief? And I got myself that question. I got an answer and so that was sometimes it took journaling sometimes it talked talking to a therapist Sometimes it took a walk in the wilderness and sometimes it took a good eye, right? Like I we have to explore Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm. Yeah. Rachel May: where these beliefs are coming from in the first place. And when I got those answers, I was like, a lot of this stemmed from my childhood and from my academic career. So I had to do a lot of inner child work of like loving on that inner child and realizing that those beliefs are not true and I don't believe them anymore. Monica Hay: Mm. Hmm. Yes. Rachel May: The question once I once I got the awareness the question became how do I change away from a belief I don't want to have anymore? And that's where I think you need like daily repeatable actions that can prove to you a new belief is safe and that you can't it. So I would start my days being like okay whenever I have a feeling like a capital F a feeling Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Mmm. Rachel May: And it feels, for me, it's like right here in my chest. And like, chest gets all hot. So whenever I have that, I'm gonna stop and be like, what's going on? And where is this coming from? Why do I feel defensive? Or why do I feel afraid? Or why do I feel whatever? And then I'd be like, okay, if I tried to believe this other thing, what would happen? And I treated it like a little experiment. Monica Hay: Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Rachel May: And I'm doing, I mean, this was taking years. That's another thing I wanna say. This is like a long, it's a practice, it's a long time. don't, for most people, you don't just wake up and believe something different and you're like, ⁓ yes, my life is so much better now, yay. But like, I mean, months of being like, I am having a visceral reaction. What's causing it? Because I don't think most of us even understand when our body feels something physiologically, what's making us feel that way. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Rachel May: And I had, I would say prior to like 25, I had very low emotional intelligence. I don't think I didn't understand what it felt like to, or what feeling was like. I also think having ADHD, all of your feelings feel 10 times more intense, right? So like I'm crying at everything and I'm like, I'm not even, I'm not even upset. Why am I crying? But like my body is this reaction. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Rachel May: So anyway, once I could like, I would stop myself and I would be like, what's the feeling going on? Where is it coming from? And if I believed that like I'm valuable or I'm valuable as I am, I deserve love as I am. I don't need this approval because I love myself. I'm happy with what I. Like I was trying on these new beliefs. And if I just started with like, I love myself no matter what. If I believed that in this moment, what would change? Monica Hay: Hmm Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Rachel May: I could feel my body reacting differently and I could feel my behaviors changing. So I tried on, like I picture it like I'm putting a coat on where I'm like I'm trying on a belief that I love myself. What would happen in my day if I believed that? What would happen if I believed that and I sat down to write? If I loved myself unconditionally, no matter what. Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Rachel May: and I didn't care about other people's approval. I tried to write a spicy scene knowing that one day my mother-in-law was gonna read it. What would I do? And it came down to me, I'll write the damn scene, I just do it. Cause like it made me happy. ⁓ Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Yeah. Rachel May: Over time, those things became more natural. Like, I think those beliefs really became seeded. And I would talk about them with our writing community. And I would tell other people the same thing. Like, I would never look at you, Monica, and be like, you're only valuable if you have the approval of others. I would never say that to another person. So why am I saying that to myself? Monica Hay: Right? Rachel May: So when I had those thoughts, that's kind of how it went. And you have to check yourself. You have to be aware. you're not gonna have, like this is not gonna be smooth every day. Some days will be heavier than other days. Some days will be easier than other days. ⁓ Monica Hay: Yeah. Rachel May: But there was a saying that became really popular a couple years ago of like the first thought that you have in your head is just your programming and the second thought you have is like what you actually believe. So I needed to recognize what my programming was even was in order to like rewrite that and that's where it started. Monica Hay: Yeah. ⁓ I love that. I don't think I've seen that before. The first thought is your programming and the second thought is what you believe. Rachel May: Yeah. Yeah, or like what you want to believe or what you're to. And it's this kind of idea that, you know, when your body's acting on instinct, thoughts happen. That doesn't mean that they're true or that you actually believe them. But if you don't stop yourself and question, why did I, why did I think that or why am I acting this way? Or why do I believe that? Where's that coming from? Like you don't, you don't even get the opportunity to like change it. Monica Hay: Yeah. Right, the awareness is the first part. Yeah. ⁓ I'm very curious. So I'm looking for some of my questions. I didn't realize that this looked like such a hot mess when I sent them to you. Bullet points everywhere. Rachel May: It doesn't look good on me. They look great. I was like, yes, yes, yes. Monica Hay: So, okay, I wanna ask you, so you said that you had a hard time being bad at something. That was what you struggled with. So why was it that you had such a hard time being a beginner? How does needing to look competent keep writers stuck? Rachel May: Yeah, because I think some of this, I'm gonna use perfectionism language, but I think it's broader than that term. So just let's say that. But like the idea of perfectionism, which is the belief that... Monica Hay: Right. Rachel May: you need to do good and people will say, I don't want to be perfect. I just want to be good enough. It's the same thing. If you have any baseline of, if I can hit that, I will be safe. That's the idea of perfectionism. Perfectionism is a behavior where you're trying to protect yourself from fear, rejection, and harm. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Rachel May: from failure, like failure equals unsafe. So if I'm perfect enough, I will be safe. So for me, like what was happening was that ⁓ being bad was unsafe. ⁓ And I would call that the perfectionist part of me. I still have that part. It still comes up all around. But ⁓ I think we all have this, Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah. Rachel May: Most of us, I think, are conditioned to this point. If you're bad at something, it's not safe. So your options are, don't do it, or work on it enough until it's good, and then you'll be safe. And so, what happened to me was a combination of one of those two things. I would either not do it at all, because I didn't want the pain of... Monica Hay: Yep. Right. Mm. Rachel May: failure, rejection, like lack of approval, or I would like focus on something so hard until I thought it was good enough for other people to see. Then I would share it. And if it wasn't good enough, if I got any type of critical feedback, if it was like not a 100%, A plus. Monica Hay: Right. Mmm. Mm. Rachel May: then it would come back as like a signal to my body pain, fear, rejection. And that's not true either. the idea of like pursuing that perfection is impossible. So you're never going to get to that point where everything is right all the time. It's impossible. But you never grow your skills if you run away from that fear. Monica Hay: Yeah. Right. right. Right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I almost had the opposite experience of like I was shit at so many things growing up. Like I just was. I was good at certain stuff. Like I was good at a lot of humanities classes. was like, but I had to work a lot harder than my peers to get this to do well. Like I just did. And that's probably still true today. I have to work really hard. Rachel May: Yeah, so. Monica Hay: And when I started writing books, ⁓ I started noticing like, I was, of course there were like, there were perfectionistic thoughts and like, I had to come up against the feeling of like, ⁓ I'm a beginner and this is painful. But I also kind of just knew like, ⁓ this is just gonna take a lot of work. because everything had always taken a lot of work from me in my whole life. I think what's really interesting is that culturally, we don't let people be beginners, right? Like we just don't. And I mentioned this on my Instagram the other day and someone was like, what do you mean? And like Amy McNeese talks about this in her book, We Need Your Art, but like when you go to the party and say like, I'm a writer, people don't say like, how was your process? Rachel May: Exactly. Monica Hay: They ask you, what have you published? They just go immediately to the outcome and the result. And it's not that, they just don't know better. It's the same as if you ask them, what did they do? And they say they work on paintings. You might say, where are your paintings? Whatever. But our culture doesn't really understand beginners. It's like, you have to either not be doing it or be a fucking master and be published and be incredible. And I think that makes us a lot of people. don't feel validated where they are. They just don't feel like it's even a valid thing to be, which is very painful, right? It's like, ⁓ I'm a beginner at this. I might be bad at it, but I'm spending my time on it. I don't get validation from others, and I feel like I don't really have a place in society, right? And it's so interesting. Rachel May: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, I have a lot of feelings about this in regards to hustle culture. And the idea, don't, our society doesn't even let children be beginners. Like, it's not like I was perfectly supported through all my endeavors and when I turned 18, people had these expectations of me. These expectations exist for children. And it's so prevalent because to me, everything that you're just saying is a result of capitalism, to be honest. I'm gonna go on my little capitalism and hustle-holter rant. ⁓ Monica Hay: Mm-mm. Right. Yeah, yeah, it is. Here for it. Rachel May: In the United States, think capitalism tells us that you're only as valuable as the money you make. And how often do beginners make money? They don't. They don't. Monica Hay: They don't. Yep. Rachel May: So like from a very young age, we are conditioned to make money, establish wealth, and your wealth is directly related to your position in society. And anytime you are not achieving or not making wealth, which is the drive that capitalism has, you are less than. And this cycle feeds into hustle culture, which is the idea that you have to work, work, work, Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Rachel May: where like you can't ever stop, you have to hustle to make money. I would say in most fields, but especially in the creative field, we're not making a lot of money and it also takes a long time to make money. So from the get-go, our work is devalued. Our time is devalued. The effort that you put into it, there's so much more pressure and expectation on how soon can you make money? And like, how quickly can you be good enough? for someone else to give you money. That's the other thing too about capitalism is that when you're making money, someone's giving it to you. So then you have this system where my approval is based on how much money you're gonna give to me. Monica Hay: Right. Mmm. Rachel May: Right? Not if like the way we think about it is like how much money can I make? But that's not how it works. In creativity, like paintings, your paintings are only as valuable as what people pay for them. Right? Like that's the ideal of that's the ideal of capitalism. Same with books. Your books are only worth what people will pay for them. And like Monica Hay: right. Rachel May: In the midst of all of this growth where I'm like learning to love myself, I'm like, ⁓ my God, I deserve value. I'm also like separating myself from hustle culture because I hustle culture has any place in creativity because they're so diametrically opposed. The value system of capitalism is the complete opposite value system of a healthy creative life. Monica Hay: Right? Right. Yeah. Rachel May: The whole structure of our society is based on approval, money, wealth, gain. And it's not inherent in any way. All of it is external. So of course we grow up with these external approval ideals because our society is fucked because capitalism sucks. So like, it all comes back to capitalism. So like that's, that's what we're fighting against. The creative life, the idea of sitting in the discomfort of being bad, it's fighting against all of this. It's fighting against the idea of time, where time is money. And if you spend more time being bad at something, you're making less money. And if you're making less money, you can't live. Sorry, and I'm not saying there are real Monica Hay: Yep. Right. Yep. Yeah, you put that, no, you put that beautifully because I've talked about that before in my boot camps, but I haven't talked to it about it in the same level. I usually talk about like societal conditioning in general because that's what it is. But you're right. I think it comes down to like, we're not allowed to be beginners because we have to fucking make money. Rachel May: Yes. Exactly. Yes, we have to make money. It's not safe to not make money. So anytime in childhood, I think it's really rooted in ⁓ this conditioning to like, get approval and be better. But especially in adulthood, there's all these extra pressures of the longer it takes you, the less money you're So how unsafe is that? Monica Hay: Yes. Yep, exactly. Yep. Yeah. Rachel May: Like of course it doesn't feel safe to struggle and learn and grow on your own timeline at the speed that makes sense to you with the tools you have available. Like this is not a level playing field, right? Like privilege matters with the time and the energy and the resources that you have. if you don't have, I teach a class where we talk a lot about ⁓ Monica Hay: Yep. Rachel May: practical disruptors. Where like there are parts of our life that we cannot change and that disrupt the way we write. Like if you're a parent, if you're a caretaker, if you have a job, if you have chronic illness, like those things you can't probably change, right? Those are circumstances of your life. Monica Hay: for Right. Rachel May: And some people have more practical disruptors than other people. So we can't measure ourselves in this game of comparison. And that's another thing that capitalism teaches us to do. And now I'm getting heated again. But like, it's all measured, right? Like every moment of your time is measured. Every dollar you make is measured. And your value is codified and all of that. Monica Hay: measured. Yeah. Rachel May: And you, I don't, it's so hard to love yourself when your society treats you that way. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah, well, I think it's not only hard to love yourself, but I think it's hard to give yourself permission to even be the creative that you want to be. Because you're basically going against what you've been taught. I was very lucky. I think I was very lucky that I, because for me, I was raised in a family of artists. Like my dad was an artist, my mom is still an artist. And so I was very lucky in that sense. Like I grew up knowing that the arts have value. And in a lot of ways, I think Rachel May: Yes, yes. You're perfect. Monica Hay: That's been very helpful throughout my life because I'm, you know, like, when I take time for my art, I still had to unlearn a lot of stuff, but in my brain, I'm like, yeah, this is like the experience of being a human. We get to make art. ⁓ I'm very grateful for that, but I also think there's that little enneagram three in me that's like, you need to make money. You need to survive. You don't get to do the like, luxurious thing of writing right now because you need to be making income. And isn't it so interesting how it always ties back to like how our society is set up? know, I, man, every time I think about it, I'm like, when, I don't know. I don't think that we'll see the end of it in our lifetime, necessarily, but. Rachel May: Yes. I think so either, but I'm sure as hell gonna fight to carve out my own little moment of peace. ⁓ One of the beliefs I've built is I deeply deserve a life that is fulfilling. Like a belief that I have developed. And if I believe that, I'm gonna value my creativity over... Monica Hay: Yes. Mmm. Rachel May: what society says is important. I think as a parent, this is so important to me because I want my daughter to have that freedom. I don't want her to have the feeling that I get in my chest that you're doing something wrong if you try to be creative. I don't want her to have that. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah. Right. Rachel May: So I agree with you, I don't think we're gonna see the end of it. We're in late stage capitalism. Who knows how the next couple years will go, but like I'm sure as hell not gonna let them steal my joy. Yeah. Monica Hay: Yes. Yeah, I think, I love that you said that because I think a lot of creatives right now are in like the thick of what's the point. But I really love the rebellious feeling of you will not steal my joy. You will not steal my creativity right now. Like I'm gonna make it no matter what the fuck is happening because I have a right to do this. I'm a human. I have a right to joy and have a right to art. Rachel May: Yes. Exactly. That's why I write what I write, honestly, and that's why I self publish it is because I'm not writing the next literary masterpiece. I don't care. Look, I don't I don't exactly I don't give a fuck. I'm writing these money little books to make myself happy and to make other people happy. Because right now we all need a little bit of entertainment. And if my books are entertaining, Monica Hay: Same, I don't give a fuck. Yep. Rachel May: Five stars, two thumbs up. That's my goal. When I wanted to write the next literary masterpiece, it was not from a place of joy. It was from a place of wanting someone to approve of me. And now that I don't care about that, I write whatever I want. I'm gonna make myself happy and then I'm gonna publish it. Monica Hay: Yes. right? Yep. Yeah. Yep. Rachel May: because that's what I wanna do and no one's gonna gatekeep that for me and tell me that I need to be picked to do that. So one of your questions was like, what happens when we stop trying to look impressive? We publish our books. Monica Hay: Yeah. Rachel May: book and I was like hey this is really fun it's a good time is it the most perfect book ever no because I wasn't trying to make it be the most perfect book ever that book would have never been published if I was trying to make it the most perfect book ever if I wanted the approval of everyone who ever read it that book was never going to be in the world no one was ever gonna so when we stopped trying to get other people's approval lo and behold we finish our projects we get them out to the world Monica Hay: Right. Right. Rachel May: and we're happy. Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. It sounds like you had a really awesome shift because I'm still on that point where I'm still trying to learn how to stop asking for approval. And I don't know why. think... Rachel May: Cause Monica Hay: I asked myself that, I'm like, why do I care? There was part of me that doesn't care and part of me that does, I think. When I wrote my Substack rant and I got so much lovely responses from it. And I also got these, this is this one woman who was writing from, she was a critic from ⁓ a faith background. And I remember seeing it and look, I respect all religions. I love all religions. I'm a very spiritual person myself. I wouldn't call myself religious. ⁓ Rachel May: Mm. Monica Hay: But her critique was something so fascinating. She was just like, well, porn is just bad. There's nothing empowering about it. And I'm like, wow, there's people out there who are just like, their belief systems and values are just so different from mine. And in some ways I'm grateful for those reminders because I can just be like, I don't give a flying rat's ass about her opinion. I don't give a fuck about it at all. Rachel May: Yeah. Monica Hay: because she and I are completely different people with completely different value sets. And my work will probably never be in front of her face ever again. And I will continue to write the books I love and that I enjoy writing. And that's that. Rachel May: I think that's the energy you hold at every decision point you encounter I'm like should I do this thing or should I not do this thing? Well, if I didn't give a fuck about their pain, what would I do? Well, I would do the thing then do the thing do the thing and I that's true of any belief that you're trying to embody and learn and hold is Like look, I think these two things go hand in hand Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Do the thing. Yep. Rachel May: Thoughts change behavior, but behavior also changes thoughts. This is a cycle. So if you're trying to change behavior, then you need to change your thought. But if you're trying to change your thought, let's try to change your behaviors. And eventually they become congruent. Like it's a practice of when can I intervene? Because you can't always catch it. Monica Hay: Yes. Yes. Right. Rachel May: But in your conscious sentient self, when can you intervene? Can you change the behavior or can you change the thought? And then what's the next thing that you do? So if you're embodying the energy of like, just really want to learn to love myself unconditionally. OK, the next time you hit a point where you feel like you're not getting the love that you want or you're desperate to get the love of another person and you're ah! Monica Hay: Hmm. Mmm. Rachel May: If I loved myself, what would I do? Do the thing. And you're like, okay. Then you, think you have to have a check in on the other side of like, did I die? No. No. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so easy to feel like so unsafe from all these things. And it's just like, just turn off your phone and walk away. Like you're fine. Like you're fine. Rachel May: You're fine. Yeah, I had that question. I think a lot of my feelings, and they're really big feelings, but a lot of my feelings came back to this really primal, like the amygdala, which we talked about before. This really primal feeling that if I did something bad, I would die. Like that was what it made me feel like. So then I was like, well, if I did something bad and I made a mistake, what would happen? Okay, did I die? No, I was fine. Monica Hay: Right. Yeah, yeah, everything was fine. Rachel May: Did anyone think less of me? No. Was Emily, my business partner, mad at me? No. Was my husband gonna divorce me? No. So like, then that was another thing that I tried to embody is like, if I did this and made a mistake, what would happen? What's the worst that could happen? In writing, in writing, it's usually like, I just delete those words and try again. Like, that's the worst. Monica Hay: Yeah. Right. Delete the word. Rachel May: It's not a big deal, but your body doesn't know that. So you have to like condition it to that expo, like that exposure to risk. And in most of our situations, nothing bad is going to Monica Hay: Right. Yes, yeah, think exposure to risk has helped me a lot actually. And I think for a lot of people, they're like so afraid to do the thing and then they do and they're like, ⁓ that was fine. And then as you continue doing it, it feels less and less risky because you're like, ⁓ yeah, like I was fine after it. Even if I got some weird things, you you're alive, you're breathing, you're fine. ⁓ Rachel May: You're fine. That's exactly right. The more you do it, the less risky it feels and the more safety you develop. And then that's when like your belief truly takes root. And that's when the behavior like truly starts to change is because you've built the idea of safety because it really wasn't that bad. I know. I know. I've been like looking at the time. Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. I wish we could keep talking. I could probably talk for another hour about this. I'm like, damn it, I have another meeting in like three minutes. Well, I should probably have you back on to talk more about this. Tell me in the comments if you want us to talk more about this. I would also like talk about like sabotaging creativity, what success means to you, like all these different things. We'll talk about it in different episode. Rachel May: Any time. Monica Hay: Thank you, Rachel, for being here. Rachel May: Thank you. You know, we said at the beginning that we had scheduled an hour and we talked for three. This is par for the course. I feel like we could have talked for three probably. Monica Hay: We could have talked with me. Rachel May: So. Monica Hay: All right, thank you so much for listening everybody. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, you sent me your, where can people find you, Rachel? Where do you want to send people? Rachel May: Okay, so in my work as a coach, you can find me at goldenmayediting.com. and I do book coaching work and we have a writing program and we teach authors how to embody mindset, how to learn craft and make it work for them. In my author work, you can find my website at authorremay.com ⁓ or you can follow me on Instagram at author.remay. Yeah. M-A-Y, like the month. Monica Hay: Love it. May, M-A-Y? Perfect. Awesome. Thank you so much, Rachel. It was great to have you.