Latest / The Curve / RTC87: Apples for apples: Our big, curvy ethical debate.

Transcript

RTC87: Apples for apples: Our big, curvy ethical debate. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to our ethical mini-series.
0:03
So we're doing this with Pathfinder and it's the second time we've done it.
0:06
And you may be thinking especially if you're new to the curve,
0:09
why are we talking about ethical stuff at the same time as talking about money.
0:13
But the thing is they actually really intertwined.
0:15
You can cut your overall yearly carbon footprint just by switching your Kiwi's ever fund
0:20
to provider that's climate positive.
0:22
And in this mini-series, we're going to be discussing our values
0:25
with relation to how they impact our investment decisions.
0:27
So if you're working to leave things better than how you found them,
0:31
then you might want to check out Pathfinder.
0:33
They actually tilt their portfolio towards positive investment things.
0:36
So things like renewable energy, community housing,
0:39
and they grow your welfare good investments in areas like healthcare,
0:43
water infrastructure, technology, lots of good stuff like that.
0:47
Pathfinder have one mind for money's award for best ethical Kiwi's ever provider.
0:51
Three years in a row.
0:53
So if more information about Pathfinder and the work that they do,
0:56
you can hit the Pathfinder dot Kiwi.
0:58
Pathfinder asset management limited is the issuer of the Pathfinder Kiwis ever plan
1:03
and Pathfinder investment funds.
1:05
Product disclosure statements for their offers are available at Pathfinder dot Kiwi.
1:10
Welcome to Raising the Curth.
1:11
A podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
1:14
to be better with your money.
1:16
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the browny recipe.
1:21
I don't really get the saying.
1:23
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
1:26
You know, I'm still not wearing it.
1:28
Are you on the script?
1:30
It's basically like saying investing in finance can be boring as...
1:33
But it totally doesn't need to be.
1:36
OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
1:40
OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
1:42
It's the browny recipe for me.
1:44
OK, we got there, we got there, OK.
1:45
OK, you've really got a finance mate.
1:47
Yeah, one of us has to.
1:49
This is a show.
1:50
OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager,
1:54
where I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
1:57
And I'm going to be eating all the browny you wish you could.
1:59
No, that's so not the joke, Vick!
2:02
Oh!
2:03
OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
2:05
Because together, we really can raise the curve.
2:10
All right, everyone.
2:11
Welcome.
2:12
Now, this is a concept that Vick and I have been talking about for ages.
2:16
And we came up with in collaboration with Pathfinder, AKA Lily,
2:20
who's going to be our first guest for this.
2:22
Now, this was something I remember we were talking about
2:25
when I was like in the airport coming back from London last year.
2:28
We were all on a three-way call.
2:30
They were like, wow, wouldn't it be so amazing if we did that?
2:33
To have like a debate, where it's like someone's four,
2:35
someone's a guest, yeah.
2:36
And it's because when we've talked about ethical and destined,
2:39
and when we say ethical and destined, we mean investing companies
2:43
that you personally think are ethical.
2:47
And Vick was always saying stuff like, oh, well, it's totally, you know,
2:51
depended on the person.
2:53
It's all about...
2:54
Is that what I sound like?
2:55
It was annoying.
2:56
It was annoying, because I was always like, no,
2:57
because there's right and wrong.
2:59
There's black and white.
3:00
She was like, there's not when it comes to ethical and destined.
3:03
Well, like ethical and destined, values based and destined,
3:06
I mean, you can call it so many different names,
3:08
but everyone has different ethics and different values.
3:11
And so it's so subjective.
3:13
And that's why I'm like, it's not black and white, so I think.
3:15
I know, I was always trying to like batten down the hatches
3:18
and they're like, that's not the saying I'm looking for, by the way.
3:22
But I was always trying to be like, no, there's got to be a right or wrong.
3:25
But the more that I've learned about investing,
3:27
the more that I realise that it's actually not the case.
3:30
Big companies especially are so...
3:33
Like, there's so many facets to them that it's like, yes,
3:37
they might be doing really well in one area and not so well on the other.
3:39
It's kind of like a human, yeah.
3:41
We can't all be perfect.
3:42
No, and sometimes you drink green smoothies during the week and do yoga.
3:46
And then in the weekend, you kind of...
3:47
What are you doing in the weekend?
3:48
It looks eating shit food, drinking alcohol, and staying up all night.
3:53
So, you know, you can't be, you know, good 100% at the time.
3:56
Yeah, I don't know.
3:57
It's been something I grapple with a little bit, to be honest,
3:59
because for me, the environmental peace is massive.
4:03
But I think for you, probably the people peace is maybe bigger,
4:07
but anyway, we'll get into this in a minute.
4:08
But essentially, what we're going to be doing today is
4:12
highlighting a company that we think could be argued as an ethical company,
4:17
but also as a not ethical company.
4:20
So, we're going to do this almost in a debate style.
4:23
The first case study we're going to do is Apple,
4:25
because this is one of those companies where you could totally say,
4:29
oh, they're doing such amazing things,
4:31
and they're also doing a whole lot of kind of questionable things.
4:34
So, Vick's going to be a gankster.
4:36
Okay, so you're a gankster, Apple.
4:38
I am anti-Apple.
4:39
So, you're basically coming at it with the argument that they're not...
4:42
It's a rotten Apple.
4:44
Yes, okay.
4:46
And now, we'd like to welcome to the show, Lily.
4:49
Now, hi, Lily.
4:51
Lily, I feel like you're just an old friend of the curve.
4:55
You've been a big fan of the work that we're doing for a long time,
4:58
and we love the work you're doing at Pathfinder 2.
5:00
So, we've really stoked to have you as our first guest, actually.
5:03
Thank you so much for being here.
5:05
It's a pleasure to join you both,
5:07
and I think I bring a kind of normal consumer presence as well,
5:12
because I work in finance, but that's not my background.
5:15
Yeah, 100% one of my secret skills,
5:19
actually, is being able to see it from a quite a quite normal person's point of view.
5:23
Yeah, Lily, do you think just for the listeners to understand a bit of background
5:26
as to your work that you're doing and how you got to that place?
5:30
Could you just give a bit of an overview as to who you are?
5:33
I mean, as a person, but also work-wise,
5:35
I know that's a huge question.
5:38
How long do you have?
5:39
Wow, okay.
5:41
I'll try and be succinct.
5:42
So, I'm the creative director at Albarium,
5:44
which is the parent company that owns Pathfinder,
5:46
and Pathfinder is an ethical investing company
5:48
that's been going for over 11 years,
5:50
and we have a Kiwi saver that's also ethical,
5:53
and that's been in the market for three years.
5:55
So, I do everything from creative direction around advertising
6:00
through to PR and marketing, website development, that sort of thing.
6:04
And it's really important to me to have the title,
6:06
Creative Director, because I want to remind people that creativity
6:10
is just as valid in finance,
6:12
as it is in a whole lot about the places.
6:14
I feel like you'd probably the only creative director
6:16
in the finance industry, to be honest.
6:19
I guess very few.
6:20
Very few.
6:21
Yeah, it's a surprise and a challenge for many when I enjoy.
6:26
And in her spare time, she writes,
6:29
she does all sorts of awesome things.
6:31
Before you were at Pathfinder, you had a very different...
6:34
You've never worked in finance before this role, right?
6:37
No, I usually work in the creative industries,
6:38
so I've worked in everything from agencies
6:41
that were working with online digital banking
6:45
all the way through to jobs in the creative sector,
6:49
startups and SaaS companies,
6:52
publishing, Unity books, book reviews, that sort of thing.
6:56
Yeah, so I think what's quite cool about this
6:57
is that you guys have very different brains
7:00
and very different perspectives on this particular company.
7:03
Now, before we get started into the old Apple case study,
7:07
I just want to point out,
7:08
so Vic isn't necessarily against Apple
7:11
and Lily isn't necessarily for Apple.
7:13
That's the whole point of this conversation,
7:15
is that you can argue both sides.
7:17
So before anyone adds either of them,
7:19
being like, I can't believe you invest in Apple.
7:22
I can't believe you don't invest in Apple.
7:24
That's not the point of this conversation, okay?
7:25
Or before anyone goes, oh, Lily invests in Apple,
7:28
so I'm gonna invest in Apple, yeah, that's not.
7:31
So I'm gonna sell or whatever, yeah, don't,
7:33
this is purely just to show two sides of the story.
7:36
It balanced argument and then you can make your own decisions
7:39
on whether you want to invest in Apple or not.
7:41
Yes, so just to start off with with some key facts
7:44
so that everyone can be up to speed with Apple
7:46
and who they are.
7:48
You've probably been living under many rocks
7:51
to not know what Apple is,
7:52
but essentially Apple is a technology company.
7:56
It is one of the, is it the world's biggest company?
7:59
Yeah, the world's biggest company.
8:00
It's actually the first company
8:01
to join the $1 trillion club.
8:04
So it's enormous.
8:06
The market cap, so in terms of the size of this company,
8:10
it's considered the biggest.
8:12
Apple employs over 160,000 people, huge,
8:16
and it has 550 stores in 25 countries across the world.
8:20
The company sells over 200 and 20 million iPhones a year.
8:26
Wow, they made $440 billion in revenue in 2022.
8:32
And the share price is up 250% over the last five years.
8:35
So if you'd invested $10,000 five years ago,
8:39
you would have $25,000 now.
8:41
So amazing, pretty incredible returns
8:44
and just to throw like a fun one in there.
8:47
Apple is worth more than the entire Russian stock market.
8:49
So it is huge.
8:51
Now we're going to start with some,
8:52
I guess just problem solving questions
8:54
in terms of what is this company actually doing
8:58
and what problems are they solving?
9:00
And I want to throw it over to you, Lily,
9:02
because you're for this company.
9:03
So what are they doing?
9:04
How are they solving problems for us globally?
9:06
Do I just sit here and be quiet by my tongue?
9:08
If you want to love to say anything, you're cool.
9:10
Damn it.
9:12
So there's a few key factors.
9:13
One is connectivity, helping people do business.
9:16
It's sort of a pay to play situation.
9:17
Now you have to be digitally connected
9:19
in order to participate in most economies.
9:22
And I think one of those things
9:24
is quite a strong argument around,
9:25
it doesn't have to be Apple,
9:26
but in terms of digital technology,
9:28
having a connection to the devices
9:31
is really good for people in say,
9:32
their world country is like female entrepreneurs.
9:35
They can do their whole work on their phones.
9:38
So working remotely is pretty important now.
9:41
Innovation, so they pay any of the smartphone,
9:43
which has been around for as,
9:45
so if you see it 15 years.
9:47
They've got quite a good approach to the environmental side
9:49
of things I would argue.
9:50
So with their recycling,
9:52
you can recycle almost all of their products.
9:54
But can you add on to that product?
9:56
But because this is something I would like to ask,
9:58
just I'm going to interrupt here.
10:00
I have an old iPhone at home,
10:02
and I've just held on to it,
10:04
and same within a MacBook,
10:06
because I don't really know what to do with it.
10:07
I don't think that, I mean,
10:09
are they promoting it enough
10:10
and are there people that actually use that platform
10:14
to recycle their products?
10:16
I think that's a user, like, a user you're not returning it.
10:21
Right, okay.
10:24
So on the page, they definitely show
10:25
for each product, which part of it you can recycle.
10:28
And I was just looking through before,
10:29
it's pretty easy.
10:30
You just wipe the data and send it off.
10:32
So they've got the details of where you can send it.
10:34
And it's free for the user to return it.
10:36
So that definitely means that for the things that you can,
10:40
the components that they can recycle,
10:41
they don't have to go back into the earth and mine
10:43
for those of second time.
10:45
So that's pretty cool.
10:46
So Sophie, all right, they do make it.
10:48
There you go.
10:49
So I need to send mine back, basically.
10:51
Yeah, okay, good to know.
10:52
Yeah, it's available.
10:53
You just have to do it.
10:54
I think.
10:55
Like most of them are so sorry.
11:00
Oh, sorry, very quick to do that.
11:02
So basically, the problem that they're solving,
11:05
according to Lily, is that they're bringing people
11:08
together through technology.
11:09
I also feel like they were pretty amazing in terms of,
11:13
what they did for the creative sector.
11:15
So as a creative working in the industry,
11:17
the concept of computers in 1996 was such an unsexy
11:21
proposition and was almost solely the dominion of nerds.
11:25
And when Steve Jobs came along and decided that,
11:28
these computers, these objects, we're going to take up space.
11:31
We're going to have more of them than we had televisions.
11:34
We're going to spend more time in them than we did cars.
11:36
So we did this massive revolution for product design.
11:38
And said, well, if we're going to have them everywhere,
11:40
them as well be beautiful.
11:41
And I'm a big fan of the fact that they have championed
11:44
this idea of having both function and form.
11:47
So they've elevated that concept.
11:48
And I think they've done a huge amount
11:50
for the creative industries in terms of music production
11:53
and podcasting.
11:55
Graphic design.
11:56
Graphic, everything.
11:57
Like even the fact that people can take beautiful pictures
12:00
and videos on their phones.
12:02
It has allowed people to express themselves creatively.
12:05
I very much agree with that.
12:07
My turn?
12:08
Yeah, it's your turn.
12:10
The problems that they're creating there.
12:11
Firstly, for me, the biggest one is consumerism.
12:15
For any company that produces something
12:16
that we consume as people is having a detrimental impact
12:21
on the environment.
12:22
And I mean, I'm guilty of buying things,
12:24
buying clothes, buying products, all of that.
12:26
I get it, but I think the fact that we
12:29
said Apple produces 220 million iPhones.
12:33
That is crazy.
12:35
Not everyone needs a new iPhone every couple of years,
12:38
but they also make their products only last a few years.
12:42
So we do, it does create that consumerism.
12:44
That is a thing, right?
12:45
Because I swear my laptop slowly starts to die.
12:48
And my phone battery slowly starts to die.
12:50
How else would they make?
12:51
They keep selling new products if they last a forever.
12:53
See, that is so FUCKD.
12:57
The fact that you can recycle them, I think,
12:59
is a good counterpoint to that.
13:01
I mean, in terms of consumerism, literally,
13:03
every company that creates a product,
13:05
you're designed to consume.
13:06
They're designed to consume.
13:07
Totally.
13:08
And Apple is doing its best in the situation it's in.
13:12
There's a lot of massive companies out there.
13:14
Whether there be fashion companies or food companies
13:18
that they don't have that function to recycle.
13:21
So the fact that they're like, yes, we sell iPhones.
13:23
But hey, we're trying to do our best in a bad situation.
13:26
But here's a fun step for you.
13:27
They sold 800,000 iPhones in one day.
13:32
That was their record.
13:34
800,000 iPhones in a day, which made
13:37
them $700,000 per minute in the first quarter of 2021.
13:41
Like, that's, oh, wow, that's so cute.
13:44
That's a lot, but wouldn't you say that that's
13:46
like customer demand?
13:47
So it's really their fault?
13:49
Or are they, I mean, there are people eager.
13:51
They're not shoving them into people's hands.
13:53
There are people desperate to buy them.
13:54
Exactly.
13:55
And they're making them more and more expensive.
13:57
So it's not like they are throw away as such in terms of,
14:02
oh, have three because they're so cheap.
14:04
But they are definitely limiting from that aspect.
14:07
Secondly, I would say that I had a look at some of their social
14:13
kind of diversity stats.
14:14
And only 32% of women are in senior leadership roles at Apple
14:20
versus 28% in 2014.
14:22
So they've made pretty much no progress
14:26
in that over nearly 10 years.
14:29
And tech roles, women and tech roles in the company
14:32
were much, much worse than that, 32%.
14:35
So I think for a company this size, and for a company
14:37
with such global reach, and that has been around for so long,
14:41
and is so advanced, there's so many other areas of what
14:43
it does, and so innovative, it should
14:45
be progressing women a lot more than what it has.
14:49
Can I just interrupt and ask, did you
14:50
look at other diversity?
14:52
Like, cultural diversity.
14:54
What was, what was, what was, what was, what was, what this is?
14:56
No, but I'm just curious.
14:57
Oh, I don't have all the stats on me.
14:58
No, yeah, yeah.
14:58
Because I think that would be really interesting to me.
15:00
It was worse.
15:01
But I don't know.
15:01
I think that you're saying, yeah, sorry.
15:04
I'm not going to defend a lack of prioritizing women
15:08
and senior leadership roles, for sure.
15:11
But I would say that when you look at the tech sector
15:14
in general, and you will know this,
15:16
it's fairly despicable in terms of female senior leadership.
15:21
But Apple outperforms the average.
15:23
So the average in the top 20 tech companies
15:26
is 25.3% of women and senior leadership roles.
15:30
So when you compare that to 32%,
15:33
actually doesn't look too bad.
15:34
So you need to sort of put it in context of that industry.
15:36
But also that average is terrible.
15:39
I mean, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:41
The better you are performing is great,
15:42
but I'm like, not that bad.
15:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:45
Another one for me is that, yes, I agree with you, Lillian,
15:49
in terms of what they're doing for the environment.
15:51
But I think Apple is great at marketing.
15:55
It's great at marketing its products.
15:56
It's great at getting people to buy its products.
15:59
I think it is great at marketing the fact
16:01
that it is doing good for the planet
16:04
or the whole recycling angle.
16:06
I think, but I didn't even know you could recycle.
16:08
So I was not marketing very well.
16:10
But in terms of, like, there was a great story that I read
16:13
that they, remember when they bought out the iPhone
16:16
and they said, you know, we're not gonna include headphones
16:18
and an adapter.
16:20
And everyone was like, oh my gosh, what?
16:21
Like, so now I have to buy them separately.
16:23
And it was all a case, well, the argument was
16:25
that it was all a case of reducing the packaging,
16:27
which means we can fit more into containers,
16:29
means less carbon emissions when we are shipping.
16:31
Well, it's so interesting.
16:32
I didn't know they did that.
16:33
But here's the good marketing is that it actually,
16:37
you know, use these 70% fewer transport costs.
16:40
Sorry, 70% less packaging and transport.
16:42
But that means 70% less transport costs,
16:45
which is great for their profit.
16:47
They advertise that, oh my gosh, we're doing this
16:50
from an environmental point of view.
16:51
It's like, no, no, you're doing it for a profitable point of view.
16:55
You're not just doing it for the good of the planet.
16:57
You're doing it for the good of the business.
16:58
But also, don't you have to package up headphones
17:01
and chords separately if they're getting bought
17:03
in a different way?
17:04
So like, how are they reducing packaging?
17:06
I don't get that.
17:07
So it's reducing, reducing the shipping costs as well
17:09
because people already have them.
17:11
You know, I've already got a charger.
17:12
I've already got headphones.
17:13
I don't need to buy another one.
17:14
I'll be given another one when I buy my iPhone.
17:16
So anyway, I just think it's like,
17:18
it's part, and this is with a lot of companies,
17:21
they put out there what they want,
17:23
the consumer or the investor to see in terms of
17:25
we're doing this for the planet.
17:26
And it's like, yes, you may be,
17:28
but there is a hidden incentive
17:30
or a hidden agenda in there.
17:32
You're not just going to do something that's going to cost you
17:36
profit because then investors won't,
17:38
well, some investors won't be happy.
17:39
So it's, yeah, you've got to take everything
17:42
with a grain of salt, I guess it's like,
17:44
have your eyes wide open.
17:45
I think it's interesting though,
17:46
like from a moral point of view,
17:47
like can a company, is it bad for a company
17:49
to have a win-win solution, right?
17:51
Like if they're doing something that's a rejection
17:53
and environmental harm, plus they're making a profit,
17:55
which, by the way, is their job to do.
17:57
Yeah, exactly.
17:58
I don't necessarily see that as being,
18:00
yeah, a negative point.
18:02
That's actually a real...
18:03
That's actually a real negative point.
18:04
One point to Lily.
18:07
Okay, do you by think the problems that they solve
18:10
outweigh the problems that they cause?
18:13
What are your thoughts, both of you,
18:15
will start with you, Lily,
18:16
on the idea of what they've done positively
18:20
outweighing the shit?
18:23
Yeah, I mean, I would sort of argue that,
18:25
perhaps it's not their responsibility in a sense.
18:29
Like, I would think that they're not...
18:30
They didn't create the idea of human greed
18:33
and they didn't.
18:34
They may be taking advantage of some elements
18:37
of people's kind of affluenza
18:39
where they want to have a whole bunch of stuff
18:41
and this question of,
18:42
well, do they need them and at what cost?
18:45
But I don't think they actually created that problem.
18:48
I think that they can't necessarily be held accountable for it.
18:51
And perhaps it's more of a question of sort of responsible usage,
18:55
like alcohol, for example,
18:57
that it's a product that exists
18:58
and it's kind of up to us as consumers
19:00
to decide how and when enough is enough.
19:04
Thanks, so I was going to get heated,
19:05
but this is not personal.
19:06
It's not personal.
19:08
You can't say that it's not a company's problem.
19:11
It's like BP producing oil.
19:13
Oh, but it's people need it for their cars.
19:15
So it's the people's issue.
19:16
It's not BP's issue.
19:17
It's not their problem.
19:19
It is their problem.
19:20
They're producing the goods that people want to buy.
19:23
We're never going to be able to stop consumerism or greed
19:28
unless it comes at a company level
19:29
where you have alternatives that are better for the planet.
19:32
If every company had the view of,
19:35
it's not our problem.
19:36
If every consumer had the view, it's not our problem.
19:38
If every investor, you know,
19:40
we're never going to get anywhere.
19:41
And I think maybe it is governments
19:43
that need to come in and mandate certain changes or things.
19:47
But I think we all need to take responsibility
19:50
whether you're a company and a investor or consumer
19:52
that it is our responsibility.
19:54
I don't disagree with that.
19:55
But I think it's about the boundaries.
19:56
Like, when you put up the boundaries,
19:58
whose responsibility is it for health and how far?
20:00
So Apple have done,
20:01
it's not like they're not doing things.
20:03
They are participating with their sense of circular economy
20:09
and they're trying to address, you know, wastage
20:12
by recycling, they're trying to limit the impact,
20:15
the negative impact that they have on the earth.
20:18
The question of whether or not what drives them
20:20
is always a hugely interesting one.
20:22
And then I sort of,
20:23
and this is a massive oversimplification,
20:25
but if you think of a cat catching a bird,
20:27
in some ways the cats are supposed to catch the bird,
20:29
even though it makes you feel uncomfortable.
20:31
I mean, I think you can look at it from both angles,
20:33
but Apple is designed to sell products.
20:36
And so it's kind of doing what it's set up to do.
20:39
I don't think that necessarily excuses it
20:41
from having some kind of moral compunction
20:43
to think about, could it be doing things better?
20:46
But I would argue that they're definitely considering things
20:48
based on their track record of improving here and there
20:51
around, you know, and key components.
20:54
And one thing I do like with massive companies like this,
20:58
you know, if they move the needle even a tiny bit,
21:01
it makes a huge difference to the world.
21:04
Whereas I hate to say it, but a small company,
21:07
yes, it might be doing it's bit,
21:08
but it doesn't really move the needle
21:10
from an overall global sense.
21:12
Whereas Apple, yeah, changing its packaging
21:16
or recycling its products, you know,
21:18
when you've got that many products in the world
21:20
or in society, that little difference
21:23
can make a huge difference.
21:24
So that's kind of the good thing about Apple.
21:28
You'll need to be against it.
21:30
So I'm just meaning like, it's kind of, yeah,
21:33
when Apple sneezes the whole world knows about it.
21:35
Oh, I like that.
21:36
Well, you're exactly thinking about the app tracking
21:39
transparency, but they changed, so I don't know,
21:42
this is a kind of a lot of evidence back.
21:44
So Apple changed their app tracking transparency thing,
21:47
which meant that before they changed it,
21:49
which is, I think they changed it in 2021,
21:50
before they changed it,
21:51
anyone with a device, an Apple phone, primarily,
21:55
everywhere you went, you were opted in
21:58
for having your cookies traced.
22:00
So that was how massive online advertisers like Google
22:04
knew all of the habits about you
22:05
and were able to target advertising to you specifically.
22:09
Oh, this is why another reason why I don't like Apple.
22:11
I forgot about this.
22:13
I forgot about this.
22:14
Shush, shush, shush.
22:16
It's actually a reason to like Apple,
22:17
because they changed their iOS,
22:20
which meant that it did the reverse.
22:21
So instead of everyone having to being default tracked
22:26
by digital marketers, they were untracked
22:30
and you had to opt in.
22:31
So basically, it completely disrupted
22:33
Google's financial model for advertising.
22:37
So that was Apple protecting people's privacy.
22:40
Maybe it was a power play, like a person contest
22:43
between them and Google.
22:44
I can't say what motivates them,
22:45
but the outcome was that people who were using Apple products
22:49
were no longer being traced around the internet,
22:51
their habits and the way they used their phone,
22:55
their habits, their spending, their inclinations,
22:57
were not being sold back to data companies
23:00
to make advertising easier to get to them.
23:02
When I saw some ads recently,
23:04
because it was like a big Apple ad and it was like privacy,
23:07
we take a stereotype, it wasn't bad,
23:09
that was a terrible slogan,
23:10
but it was something along the lines of that.
23:12
Are you really creative?
23:13
Are you in content creation?
23:14
It was some kind of thing
23:16
and I remember looking at a laughing,
23:17
I was like, hilarious.
23:18
Apple trying to claim that they're caring about people's privacy,
23:21
but maybe I was being a bit too harsh on judging that.
23:24
It's kind of like donating your organs,
23:26
but the opposite, you know,
23:28
that you used to have to opt in to donate your organs
23:29
when you died.
23:30
And now you automatically are in and you have to opt out.
23:33
You're some almost saying this just the other day
23:34
and then it makes people think when you, when you,
23:36
someone's died, that you have to actually,
23:39
that the family has to be like,
23:41
you know, we're gonna go against the grain, actually.
23:43
You know, everyone else does it,
23:44
but we don't want that from here,
23:46
which I think is an interesting social,
23:49
not experiment,
23:50
but the way that people would respond,
23:52
probably a lot less people would opt out
23:55
and therefore a lot more organs would be donated,
23:57
compared to, if they're comparing themselves
23:59
to what's considered normal.
24:01
Yeah, it's a visceral metaphor,
24:03
but it works.
24:06
The whole point of this ethical miniseries with Pathfinder
24:09
is to help you think about how you invest your money
24:11
with a relation to your own personal values.
24:14
So just like the food that you eat,
24:15
the people you surround yourself with,
24:17
the way that you spend your money
24:18
as a reflection of you as a person.
24:21
But how are you meant to know how to translate
24:23
your values into the way that you invest?
24:24
Well, Pathfinder believes no one should have to choose
24:27
between an ethical investment and a profitable one.
24:29
So together, we've created a quiz to help you figure out
24:33
what kind of investor you are based on what you care about.
24:36
It's actually very fun.
24:38
So if you would like to find the quiz,
24:39
you can head to the show notes of this podcast.
24:41
Pathfinder Acet Management Limited
24:43
is the issuer of the Pathfinder Kiwis ever plan
24:46
and Pathfinder Investment Funds.
24:48
Product disclosure statements for their offers
24:49
are available at Pathfinder.qe.
24:52
The fact that Apple's done,
24:54
they've leveraged the sense of tribal psychology, right?
24:57
Like they pioneered this idea of showing you who you wanted
25:02
to be.
25:03
And I think regardless of right or wrong,
25:05
it was a massive sea change that before they came along
25:08
with this advertising which just was a cornerstone
25:11
in their growth.
25:13
Microsoft was massive.
25:15
And you remember the ads in the 90s, right?
25:17
Which were held as extraordinary when they were
25:20
comparing the cool dude that was Apple
25:23
and then the doofy, unappealing, slow,
25:27
you know, silage guy that was Microsoft.
25:30
Oh, Microsoft, so I got it.
25:31
Microsoft, you're favorite, you're favorite, but.
25:33
I know, I'm Microsoft.
25:35
You're really getting personal here.
25:36
Oh, yeah.
25:38
So, okay, this is a test for you then.
25:41
I'm going to walk out.
25:42
I remember really once in a tech magazine,
25:43
the difference between an Apple user and an Android user,
25:46
which in this instance is Microsoft.
25:48
And they were describing it's like the difference
25:50
between people that love Oasis versus people that love Blur.
25:54
You guess which product is which band?
25:56
No.
25:57
That cares really shit taste and music.
25:59
So do I.
26:00
So I'm like, I've heard of Oasis.
26:02
I mean, we haven't seen it.
26:05
But I'm like an old person, it's like a 90s reference.
26:08
But Blur was like kind of cool and grungy, right?
26:11
So that was obviously Apple, right?
26:13
Elevated, that was Apple.
26:15
And Oasis was the dead band songs.
26:18
And everyone, yeah.
26:20
So that was Microsoft.
26:21
But I love that both of us were just like,
26:24
oh no, a cultural reference that neither us can relate to.
26:30
If you'd said do a LAPA, we would have known who you were talking about.
26:33
I can relate to versus like.
26:35
Oh, Ed Sheeran.
26:36
Ed Sheeran would be Microsoft, yeah.
26:38
No, because each, oh yeah, okay.
26:40
Because we do like it.
26:41
Yeah, we got it.
26:42
Yeah.
26:43
Yeah, he's like, we love Ed Sheeran.
26:47
I just love all music except for Blur and Oasis.
26:49
Obviously.
26:50
All right, moving on, moving on.
26:52
Do you know who says bands are?
26:54
No, okay.
26:55
They like Savage Garden.
26:56
No, no, no, that's fair.
26:57
I think.
26:58
I love Savage Garden.
26:59
Same.
27:00
I want to stand with you on the mountain.
27:04
Okay.
27:05
Sorry.
27:06
This is beautiful, guys.
27:08
No, no, by all means.
27:11
Apple, Apple, Apple, Apple.
27:12
This is relevant.
27:13
Yeah.
27:14
Oh.
27:15
I was going to say about the Apple watch, right?
27:19
Like the market that you talk about them,
27:22
hyping up their credentials, climate change.
27:24
But what about this watch that like saves you from bears?
27:26
And when you're having a heart attack,
27:28
and when you cycling through the wild forest,
27:31
and you hit you hit on a tree trunk and you pass out,
27:34
and then it calls 1-1-1-1 for you.
27:36
Do you see these ads?
27:37
No.
27:38
Wow.
27:39
That does happen.
27:40
Must you.
27:41
Yeah.
27:42
So I actually know somebody that got impaled wild biking.
27:45
It's actually a really hectic story.
27:47
He was mountain biking and went round a corner too fast
27:50
and was impaled by a tree.
27:52
So in that scenario, if he had had an Apple watch,
27:54
maybe he would have been okay.
27:56
Yeah.
27:57
Because your heart rate would have spiked and then dropped
27:59
and all sorts of things.
28:00
That's quite amazing.
28:01
Contact the emergency services.
28:02
Yeah.
28:03
That's amazing.
28:04
Life and lasting product.
28:05
So have you answered your...
28:08
You haven't gone.
28:09
Do you think the problems they solve outweigh the ones I know?
28:10
No.
28:11
That's where we're up to.
28:12
Yeah.
28:13
This is a difficult one because I think,
28:15
if Apple wasn't solving these problems,
28:17
somebody else would, you know?
28:19
Someone else, if we didn't all sit around here on our Macs
28:22
and on our iPhones,
28:23
I feel like there'd be another probably a little less cool looking,
28:28
probably a bit more shit version of those products
28:31
that would satisfy our need to connect
28:34
with each other and do business and all that.
28:36
So it is a hard one to say.
28:38
Personally, I think they could be doing more,
28:42
considering their size, their reach,
28:44
their innovation, their impact on environment,
28:47
their impact on society.
28:49
I think they could be doing a lot more is what I'm saying.
28:51
If you don't know who Blur is,
28:53
you're definitely not going to know this 2012 reference.
28:56
I'm really showing my age, but there was massive controversy
28:59
around Apple that ended up being not entirely fake,
29:02
but like largely fake when do you guys know
29:06
this American Life podcast?
29:08
Yes, and they did serial.
29:10
Oh, yeah, and Irish Glass?
29:12
Yeah, that's the guy that referred us.
29:14
That's for a lot?
29:15
Yes, so they did, no serial.
29:17
Yeah, serial was like the OG podcast that went viral.
29:21
Yeah.
29:22
And they've done quite a few different series in there.
29:24
And they're like, welcome to this American Life.
29:27
So this American Life is like this American podcast,
29:30
which is on their version of National Radio for news and listeners.
29:34
They did this excerpt from a guy's play
29:37
that had done about Apple's supply chain.
29:39
So he was a huge Apple fan.
29:41
And in 2012, he was like, oh, but you know,
29:43
what's going on in China where they make all these products.
29:46
This is, you have to remember,
29:47
this is like before ESG investing.
29:49
It was before everyone really got into the,
29:51
tried to get under the hood of companies
29:53
because they didn't really care so much I'm assuming.
29:55
It just wasn't culturally the done thing.
29:58
Investing was to make money, not to be a good person
30:01
or to virtue signal.
30:02
So anyway, he went to China and got a translator
30:04
and went to all of these warehouses.
30:07
And where they were, the production houses and stuff
30:09
where they were doing the, where they were making all the Apple products.
30:13
And he just said the most, like the shocking,
30:15
most shocking things they found.
30:17
Like it was this long piece around this,
30:19
this sad man who'd had his hand mangled in a machine
30:22
and had never seen an iPad before
30:24
and he used his stump to light it up.
30:26
It's not funny, but it's just graphic.
30:28
He uses his stump to light up the iPad
30:30
and he's surprised at some kind of magic
30:32
that he's been making these machines, right?
30:34
And he's mangled by them.
30:35
Turns out when they're aired on this American life
30:38
it just caused absolute chaos for Apple.
30:41
They had some, it was the most listened to podcast
30:44
that they'd ever done, which is huge.
30:46
And they just had this huge negative feedback loop
30:50
that I think the government got involved
30:52
and they were like, there was absolute outrage.
30:55
And then they started researching this guy
30:57
and he'd really embellished his story.
30:59
So the translator, he said you could never find
31:02
this translator again, but they found her.
31:04
And she was like, no, half of that stuff never happened.
31:07
He didn't just talk to these people.
31:08
Really?
31:09
So it was a big old drama, dramatized story.
31:12
It was a big old halfway there.
31:14
Yeah, but Apple as a result
31:17
increased the transparency of their supply chain.
31:20
And they allowed third parties in to do testing
31:24
and to make sure that the people there were safe
31:26
and treated in fair conditions.
31:30
So it did actually, as you point out back,
31:32
it was a moment where people were calling
31:36
for something different and they responded.
31:38
Yeah, I do think for a company this size as well,
31:41
any company, any large company.
31:42
You can't get away with that.
31:44
If you're employing 160,000 people,
31:46
there's going to be one unhappy person.
31:47
Or there's going to be one person who is like
31:50
a total business and is like an appropriate
31:53
to someone in the office.
31:55
You can't actually control every single person's behavior.
31:59
It comes down to like, yes, the company can do so much
32:03
with company culture, with all of the elements
32:05
that include what is an ethical company.
32:07
But there's always going to be a rogue outlier
32:09
that you can't necessarily control.
32:12
And I think with Apple as well,
32:13
we've only really spoken about Apple's kind of direct operations.
32:18
We haven't even got through, and I probably don't even
32:21
have time on this podcast, but to talk about the,
32:24
I guess, the flow and effects or the companies
32:25
that Apple deals with in terms of their suppliers
32:28
and all of that.
32:29
And, you know, where do you draw the line
32:31
in terms of your investments?
32:33
Because there was that case in China during COVID
32:36
and it was the factory that supplied over 50% of iPhones
32:41
to Apple, the factory that made the iPhones.
32:44
Yes, and they were keeping their staff captive.
32:50
There was an outbreak, and they locked all the doors
32:53
and made everyone captive in the factory.
32:56
So they could keep producing iPhones for Apple.
32:58
So they couldn't go home, even if you weren't sick
33:00
or contagious.
33:00
This is a true story.
33:01
Yeah, we put it in the kit of weekly.
33:03
What the hell?
33:05
Yeah, so it's kind of like, at what point does,
33:07
but it's not part of Apple because I'm sorry.
33:11
They supply Apple with iPhones.
33:13
So it's at what point?
33:14
But that's Apple's responsibility, in my opinion,
33:16
to be like, hang on.
33:17
Yeah, we don't actually need iPhones.
33:19
Cindy run home.
33:20
There's a humanitarian aspect to this
33:23
of people need to go home to their families.
33:24
They can't keep them for three weeks
33:26
or whatever how long it was.
33:27
I kind of do agree, though.
33:28
I think it's the company.
33:29
And you even look at fashion brands now, for example.
33:31
It's like, it is the brand's responsibility to know
33:34
how are those threads and that material, you know,
33:39
are farmed.
33:40
How are those farmers treated?
33:41
I think there needs to be responsibility from the top,
33:44
all the way down.
33:45
You need to know all elements of the stock.
33:47
Yeah, I don't know.
33:48
It's kind of, you've got the first tier,
33:50
which is Apple, you've got the second tier,
33:51
which is their supply.
33:52
Third tier is the people that work for them.
33:54
There's just kind of like, we do stock.
33:56
But, yeah, so that's the thing also with investing is to think,
33:59
you know, what are you, what are you happy with
34:01
and where are you, where are you happy to draw the line?
34:03
Yeah, what can you reasonably be responsible for?
34:06
Exactly.
34:07
What is outside the control of your influence
34:10
and we just need to kind of relax a little bit?
34:13
One last question that I did have on here was,
34:16
is it our responsibility as an individual to deal with
34:19
the ethical shortcomings of a company?
34:21
So for example, all of these things that we've talked about,
34:24
like, are we putting this back on the consumer to what extent?
34:29
And how much of it, I don't know, I guess it's the question of,
34:33
how do you both feel about these, all of these elements
34:36
that we've talked about?
34:37
What percentage of it is it the consumers responsibility
34:40
and what percentage is it the company?
34:43
Because as investors, yes, we are in a portion of the business.
34:47
But do we need to be sitting there feeling bad
34:49
about these things that, you know,
34:51
I'm just curious to hear both of your thoughts on that.
34:54
I think there's an investor angle here and a consumer angle.
34:57
And I think as an investor, if you're investing in these companies,
35:01
you know, maybe not Apple because of its size,
35:04
but you can bring about change.
35:06
I think it's almost worse if you're a silent investor.
35:09
You know, you need to be an active investor.
35:11
You need to vote on things that you're not happy with
35:14
or, you know, make your voice heard in terms of bringing about change.
35:18
Because that's going to be so much more beneficial
35:21
for not only you as an investor, but also the planet and society
35:25
and all of that.
35:26
And to be honest, probably a lot of people are thinking the same way
35:29
and want to see the same change come about.
35:32
From a consumer point of view, yes, I think,
35:35
whenever we are consuming anything in this world,
35:39
we should be making a conscious effort
35:41
or, you know, having a conscious view of,
35:43
does this align with my ethics?
35:46
You know, do I need this?
35:48
All of those things.
35:50
And it's a constant balance whenever you're making that choice
35:53
or that decision, you need to think.
35:55
Yeah, is it worth me purchasing this or not?
35:58
Which is difficult because obviously,
36:01
the best outcome is that we don't consume anything,
36:04
but that's not realistic.
36:06
So, yeah, it's with anything in life.
36:08
There is a balance.
36:09
I agree.
36:10
I mean, I studied ethics at university
36:12
and we did animal rights.
36:15
It was one of the papers.
36:16
You used to get to a point with vegetarianism,
36:19
which I personally agree with.
36:21
I think it makes the most sense.
36:23
Then you get down to veganism,
36:24
and then when you're in vegan land,
36:26
you're like, well, you know,
36:27
if you could prove sentience of vegetables,
36:29
you'd stop eating,
36:30
and you'd just not eat anything.
36:32
It's the point you have to be comfortable
36:34
with the sense of the world being somewhat chaotic
36:37
and savage and imperfect.
36:39
And it's a spectrum, I think.
36:41
It's not a black and white.
36:42
Yeah.
36:43
I think it's where are you on that spectrum?
36:45
I love that analogy of the veganism versus the vegetarian
36:47
because you're right.
36:48
You pull a carrot out of the ground
36:49
and you're technically killing life.
36:51
And so, how far are you going to take that?
36:53
Well, exactly.
36:54
I think it's really interesting as well.
36:55
There's sort of a sideback cultural issue.
36:57
Like, a lot of people will,
36:59
and I understand this from working
37:00
in the ethical investing space,
37:01
a lot of people will say that they agree,
37:04
like, the voice they're principles, right?
37:07
So, ethical investing is we define it at Pathfinder as investing
37:10
with your principles as one of the lenses
37:13
through which you choose your investments.
37:15
So, you need to classify what your principles are.
37:17
And that's the same as any individual.
37:19
So, you might call them less your principles,
37:21
maybe more your values,
37:22
the things that really mean something to you as a person,
37:26
the things that drive the actions you take,
37:28
your non-negotiables.
37:29
For me, it's more like freedom or truth.
37:32
Those are two that guide me.
37:35
And I think that when you're considering those
37:38
when it comes to investing,
37:40
you get to kind of overlay a lens
37:42
onto your investment options and go,
37:44
well, this is something that aligns with me.
37:46
There's not such thing as perfect.
37:48
I think there's a lot of things around like,
37:50
I love that line, don't make.
37:51
What is it?
37:52
Don't make perfect the enemy of good.
37:55
Yeah.
37:56
I need to let that sink in.
37:58
That's a bit of a mic drop.
37:59
If you're striving for perfection,
38:01
you know, like, be happy with good as kind of.
38:03
Thank you.
38:04
Thank you.
38:05
Sorry, I'm fine with those.
38:06
Yeah, like if people were going,
38:07
this sense of perfection,
38:08
I think the other thing I was going to say
38:10
I kind of trailed off of my brain over was,
38:12
people will project their idea of what they think is right.
38:16
But when they actually comes to doing something,
38:19
when it comes to buying a product,
38:22
or, yeah, we're going to invest,
38:24
or it's quite different.
38:25
Actually, there's a gap between what people say publicly
38:28
and what they do privately.
38:30
And that's why companies like this
38:31
are so incredibly successful, right?
38:33
Is that you can have a cacophony on the outside
38:35
of people saying,
38:36
I cannot believe the way you treat your supply chain
38:40
and China, the way that you treat your factory workers,
38:43
but those same people are holding the phone.
38:45
So we have to find a way to understand
38:49
what this means about us as humans,
38:51
and that we can both want something to be better,
38:54
but also, I don't know,
38:56
I have some sort of grace for ourselves
38:58
in the process that,
38:59
in the capitalist society,
39:01
we find ourselves in,
39:02
because I know we can't make enemies of ourselves.
39:04
I just don't think that leads to a very healthy mindset.
39:07
It's funny what you say about,
39:08
yeah, and then they're the one holding the phone.
39:10
And I remember I was doing research for this,
39:11
and I just looked up,
39:12
and I was like,
39:13
I wonder how many people in this,
39:14
we're in this co-working space.
39:15
I was like, I wonder how many people have a Mac.
39:17
And literally, I could not spot a non-Mac.
39:20
Really?
39:21
And I was kind of like,
39:23
wow, imagine creating a product
39:25
that everyone uses,
39:28
well, pretty much everyone in the world uses,
39:30
and it has probably multiple of,
39:32
I don't know, it was just quite a like, wow, moment.
39:34
You know, I've seen jobs was here,
39:36
because they're like, oh gosh,
39:37
he must just be,
39:38
I mean, there's got to be so much arrogance.
39:40
You can't,
39:41
you cannot be that successful
39:44
and have it had that much impact on social society,
39:48
everything,
39:49
and not be like,
39:51
I've killed it.
39:52
Right?
39:54
You would be pretty,
39:56
I don't know,
39:57
I thought this the other day when I was looking at people
39:59
walking around with their AirPods in,
40:01
and I was like, AirPods AirPods AirPods AirPods,
40:03
I was like, holy,
40:05
if you think about all other products,
40:07
whether it be supermarket products,
40:09
food, whatever,
40:10
there's so many different options, right?
40:12
When it comes to technology,
40:14
there's not a whole lot of top players.
40:16
It really is.
40:17
Apple is 100% killing it.
40:20
You see some of the Samsung,
40:21
you're like, ugh, yeah.
40:23
Or a Dell computer,
40:24
and you're like, no.
40:25
Yeah.
40:26
Oh, each year.
40:27
I mean, that's why there's,
40:29
I'm sure Vick will probably
40:30
at the core of,
40:31
agree with this in terms of like,
40:33
that's why there's so investible as well, right?
40:35
It's a bit of, like,
40:36
like, in my head,
40:37
I can't get the idea of it being a gateway.
40:39
You know, it's about marijuana
40:40
and a gateway drug to harder drugs,
40:42
I think about when you've got an Apple product,
40:44
it's like the gateway to all the other Apple products.
40:47
So once you've got an Apple iPhone,
40:49
then you want to have the AirPods,
40:51
then you want to have the MacBook.
40:53
So it's like you become the brand ambassador,
40:57
you've done an incredible job of being able to, like,
41:00
loop the consumer in.
41:01
What you just touched on then,
41:02
Lily, in terms of the investible piece,
41:04
can we talk about that?
41:05
Because I mean, I'd love to have it try and argue
41:08
that Apple is not an investible company.
41:10
This is, I guess, this is the whole argument
41:12
with ethical investing,
41:13
is that you have to weigh up the financial return
41:16
with, you know, with the ethics of the company.
41:19
And if you're happy,
41:20
if I'm happy with being like,
41:21
you know what?
41:22
I don't care that they encourage consumerism
41:24
and that they might not be doing as well
41:26
for the planet as they,
41:28
as they predict they are,
41:30
but their financial return is epic
41:32
and something invest in them.
41:33
But someone else on that spectrum might be like,
41:35
no, you know what?
41:36
I am so against consumerism
41:39
and I am so for the planet
41:42
and companies doing good for the planet,
41:44
I'm not going to invest in law.
41:45
So this is the thing.
41:46
It's like a spectrum.
41:47
We're saying there's no black and white,
41:48
there's no perfect.
41:49
It's kind of where you sit on that.
41:51
But I personally,
41:52
I don't think,
41:53
I think Apple can't claim sustainability
41:56
and encourage mass consumption at the same time.
41:59
Lily?
42:00
One of the things that I've learned
42:01
coming into investing
42:03
that I did not understand at all before
42:05
is that not everything is investable.
42:07
Right, so there is such a thing as an investable universe.
42:10
Not everything is on the stock market.
42:12
Not everything is open to taking your money
42:14
and you're getting shares of it.
42:16
So not everything is available to invest in.
42:18
So when you're talking about stuff to invest in,
42:20
you're already talking about a kind of a smaller classification
42:24
than you'd expect.
42:25
So as an ethical, independent values driven person,
42:28
you might be like,
42:29
oh, I really want to invest in a teak
42:31
or I really want to invest in this amazing vegan lipstick.
42:36
But surprise, surprise.
42:37
They're not necessarily available.
42:39
So you can't always actually go out
42:41
and fund the companies that you want to
42:43
through the direction of voting with your money
42:46
in an investing way.
42:47
Such a good point.
42:49
Yeah, such a good point.
42:50
So you are already in a different space.
42:53
And so you have to make a contextual decision
42:55
that's already slightly different, right?
42:57
Because you're in a different environment.
42:58
So thinking about the investable universe,
43:00
I think that Apple, and then I guess going,
43:03
well, I'm investing, right?
43:05
So I want to make money.
43:06
That's the fundamental.
43:07
If I wanted to go out and champion change,
43:10
I probably wouldn't choose investing
43:12
as my primary model of it.
43:14
I would probably go into something else.
43:16
You know, I might start a charity
43:18
or I might get into politics or, right?
43:21
So you've got to consider the context in which you're in.
43:24
And with that in mind,
43:26
I still think that Apple, although there are definitely some elements
43:29
to it that are problematic.
43:32
From an investing point of view,
43:34
it has a really strong case going for it.
43:37
And one example is that it's services.
43:39
We didn't talk about that.
43:40
We sort of entered on the hardware side, right?
43:42
Which is a whole lot of where the mining
43:44
and environmental controversies are.
43:45
But their service growth is huge,
43:47
and it's looking to accelerate and exceed potentially
43:50
the hardware.
43:51
What is the service?
43:52
Sorry, I'm not sure that.
43:53
Podcasts, music, TV, right?
43:57
So the services that they provide, the cloud servicing.
44:00
And so that has, like, it's not without,
44:02
I'm sure some kind of concerning elements,
44:04
but it's much less than, say, the mining involved in the hardware production.
44:08
So it's got a great profit forecast.
44:10
It's cashflow is awesome,
44:12
which means that it can reinvest into really innovative technology.
44:15
And I guess if you're using people power
44:17
and shareholder voting as well,
44:19
they can use that cashflow that was talking about
44:21
to do really cool things like create the infrastructure
44:24
to recycle a whole lot of their products.
44:26
You know, if that's not easy.
44:27
In New Zealand, we're forever limiting how we can't recycle enough, right?
44:31
Like, we send our recycling overseas
44:33
and in some instances, Barry or Bernard in other places.
44:36
And I'm always thinking, gosh,
44:38
if I had a whole lot of money, I'd send up a recycling plant.
44:40
Clearly, it's not a cheap thing to achieve.
44:43
So these things aren't as straightforward as they say.
44:46
And also, one thing, like the fact that Apple
44:50
is a very financially successful company in that,
44:54
you know, if you'd invested it,
44:55
invested it in a long time ago,
44:56
you would have made a lot of money.
44:58
Maybe that's an angle as well.
45:00
If you're looking at investing, if you're making,
45:02
if you're doubling your money from investing in Apple,
45:04
then you can take that money and go and choose how you want to spend that
45:07
in terms of a way that aligns with your ethics.
45:10
Totally. I think, like, putting the responsibility
45:12
of the moral agent back into the individual
45:14
isn't some way it's really useful,
45:16
because we can't control these huge companies.
45:18
We can have a sway on them, buying power and investing power
45:21
makes a difference.
45:22
But you'd fast feel inferior and a bit sort of desperate,
45:26
if you're constantly trying to change these huge organizations.
45:31
But as you say, you can leverage stuff to your own advantage
45:34
and then you can go out and fight your own battles.
45:36
Exactly.
45:37
That was a hot way to finish.
45:38
Two years ago, before I started working the financial sector,
45:41
I probably wouldn't have invested in Apple,
45:43
but I did own a whole lot of Apple products.
45:45
That's a perfect example of my moral skits of friendier in this space.
45:50
I'd heard lots of negative stuff about it,
45:52
but I still bought products,
45:54
but whether or not I would invest in it.
45:56
But now, having understood more about, like you said,
45:59
the investable universe, what the options are out there,
46:02
I would be interested in this stock.
46:04
I wouldn't freak out if someone suggested it wasn't a portfolio.
46:07
There's such a fine line in it.
46:09
It's a really personal decision,
46:12
if this feels like something that you want to invest in or not.
46:15
And we get so many messages from people saying,
46:18
can't believe that you're invest in Tesla
46:21
because of this, this, this and this.
46:23
And it's like, I imagine we'll get the same with Apple,
46:26
which is fair enough, like you're totally entitled to have your opinion.
46:29
But what we're trying to highlight here is that there is no black or white.
46:33
There's no right or wrong.
46:34
These companies, you have to make your decision.
46:36
If you want to invest in it and you're comfortable with the weighing up,
46:40
what they're doing well, and maybe what they can improve in.
46:43
Yeah.
46:44
You don't have any, you know, final, you know, mic drop moments.
46:48
Do we think we've all sort of exhausted our main points?
46:52
I can't guarantee a mic drop moment.
46:55
Sorry.
46:57
But no, I'm just, I just wanted to sort of rough off what you said.
47:01
So if I completely agree, when I manage some of the social media for Pathfinder,
47:06
and there are constantly people saying, I can't believe you invest in this,
47:10
or, you know, having different various kind of thresholds for things,
47:15
like they're vegan and they'll find a stock that they dislike.
47:19
From that point of view, or if they're really pro weapons,
47:22
and they can't believe we don't invest in weapons,
47:24
there is literally, for everyone out there, there is a stock, right?
47:28
And I always say in response, I'm like, it's absolutely fine
47:32
if you don't like what we're doing.
47:34
That we're not proselytizing.
47:36
And I think that's the important thing.
47:38
It's trying to get what I'm just saying.
47:40
Priselytizing.
47:41
Priselytizing.
47:42
Okay.
47:43
It's like preaching, right?
47:44
Trying to convert someone into a way of, sorry.
47:49
Priselytizing.
47:51
Well, I was going to say, there's a verb now, and now you've,
47:54
sorry.
47:55
I ruined it.
47:56
Sorry.
47:57
It's fine.
47:58
But that's the point, right?
48:00
Like, stop preaching to each other and be like,
48:02
this is an interesting stock, and I like it for these reasons.
48:05
Ethical is how you define ethical.
48:08
I think this is a really important thing.
48:10
Like, everyone has a principle that they follow
48:13
in order to figure out how to behave.
48:15
It's like music.
48:16
You know, there's songs that you like that I don't,
48:19
that I can't stand or vice versa, you know?
48:21
I see the garden and blur.
48:23
Yes.
48:24
I know one.
48:25
I know one of them.
48:27
You put it up so bloody, I hope you remember that.
48:30
But yes, it is very, very true.
48:32
We all have different tastes and...
48:34
Every time.
48:35
Music.
48:36
And thank God we do, because otherwise the world will be
48:38
a very boring, planned place.
48:40
We'll all look the same and we'll all dress the same.
48:42
We would all own the same things.
48:44
We would all want to do the same things they'll spend time
48:46
and how bloody boring with that may.
48:48
So embrace your differences.
48:50
Thank you so much for joining us, Alie.
48:52
It was so great to have you on, especially as our first guest
48:55
for this, I think.
48:56
It was really cool to have someone that is passionate
48:59
about this space and really cares about helping people decide
49:03
what they think is ethical and understand their own ethics
49:06
and their own principles.
49:07
And I'm really excited to get people using this resource
49:11
that we've put together to help people actually even just decipher
49:15
where they sit in terms of their investible lens
49:18
and what they think is, you know, what is going to sit good
49:21
with them when it comes to what they think is ethical and what's not.
49:23
Thank you.
49:24
Pleasure.
49:25
Thank you for having me.
49:32
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
49:34
These conversations are designed to teach you everything
49:37
that you need to know to be better with your money.
49:39
From saving, to investing, to talking to your friends
49:42
about your salaries.
49:43
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
49:46
If you could hit the subscribe button, please.
49:47
Yes, please.
49:48
Or leave a review.
49:50
It'll only take five seconds and it would really make our week.
49:53
Oh, yeah.
49:54
Our month.
49:55
Okay.
49:56
Lots of love.
49:57
See you soon.
49:58
Bye.
49:59
We are doing an ethical mini series with Pathfinder.
50:02
And this is our favourite content collaboration.
50:04
It's actually the second time we've done it.
50:06
Vick and I are both really passionate about helping the environment
50:09
and doing our bit and investing is a really powerful way to do that.
50:13
Do you want to hear a crazy stance?
50:14
Yes, I do.
50:15
Did you know, on average, 23% of a Kiwi's carbon footprint
50:20
comes from the Kiwi's ever investments?
50:22
Like a quarter.
50:23
Wild.
50:24
Yes.
50:25
So you can easily reduce your carbon footprint
50:27
by switching to a climate positive Kiwi's ever provider.
50:30
Investing shapes the world that we live in.
50:32
And investing ethically can help shape a better world.
50:35
So for more information about Pathfinder and the work that they do,
50:38
you can hit the Pathfinder dot Kiwi.
50:40
Pathfinder asset management limited is the issue of the Pathfinder Kiwi's ever plan
50:44
and Pathfinder investment funds.
50:46
Product disclosure statements for their offers are available at Pathfinder dot Kiwi.