Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 199: Ronald Clark: Leaving Pro Basketball and Why I Started Planning My Exit 4 Years Early

Transcript

199: Ronald Clark: Leaving Pro Basketball and Why I Started Planning My Exit 4 Years Early · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I started, you know, really, really prepping myself for leaving basketball.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I still played for four years, but I started working on my transition at that point.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I a lot of guys will wait until it's over and then start thinking about, okay, hey, what am I gonna do now?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I intentionally plann my departure, for lack of better words, over the course of those four years, preparing myself to enter the uh the tech scene in Finland.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I did.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I started that transition four years prior to actually leaving basketball.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Who are you beyond the game?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ryan Gonzalez.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: I became a professional footballer at 16, and eventually had to add to that myself.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: This is career class with athlete, context with academics, I go about career classic.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Athlete is out, and of course, psychologist code is the identity and the practical work of building content.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Athletes picked it earlier than most people.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: What they learn works by any point.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Each episode, a story, and where it goes off there.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Let us be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hey man, Ronald, welcome to the show.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Good to have you on here today.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a pleasure to be here, and we've spoken before, and now it's you know it's very good to actually engage and you know be on the show.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited about it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, listen, me too.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's gonna be a lot that we can unpack in terms of partly your career, but the way from a basketball or from an athletic perspective, it helps you move around, but then also that shift into your current career.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that in itself is gonna be quite interesting.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's quite a journey.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, for those listening and watching, why not get us up to speed with where you are and what you're up to nowadays?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I am the uh chief information security officer for a financial institution in Finland.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's called Hovi Payment Services.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: I basically run the entire cybersecurity program for that organization.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: We have branches in a few different European countries.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, my manager team of security engineers and some other engineers, but that's what my responsibility is nowadays.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's good to hear.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what made you get into that as a starting point?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when I studied university in the States, I was more so into biological sciences, but once I decided to to stay in Europe, uh there was this, you know, part of it was uh a language barrier.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of, you know, jobs and opportunities in various different countries in Europe, you know, for a foreigner who doesn't speak the language, you know, you ha in if you know n you know English, you have a way in.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and I was also uh a bit computer savvy, so I decided to, you know, dive into technology and then channeled more so into cybersecurity.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how it started.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, once I got started and the ball got the ball rolling, I, you know, really had a strong interest even more.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I grew my career and you know, here I am now.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like something that evolved rather than it being this intentional piece.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And well, let's let's actually start at the beginning a bit more from you from a a sporting perspective.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Growing up, sport for you was it something that was a key part of life and a key part of family?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody in my family played sports and highly competitive, and uh, you know, I played multiple different sports as a kid, but then eventually went into basketball as my main choice of uh sports to play.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I've played basketball ever since I was five years old.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that journey overall of, you know, growing up, but then also falling in love with the sport and having a family that, oh my God, my uncles were so rough on us, and you know, they pushed us and challenged us and they they took no mercy on us.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but it toughened us up, you know, and got us prepared for, you know, the competition of not only the sport, but the you know, life in general.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I was able to excel in basketball and do pretty well.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was a collegiate athlete.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Colorado State University, played there, and then, you know, I went and had a 12-year pro career in Europe in various different countries.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when did you kind of realize that basketball was your thing?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: When did you realize you were good at basketball?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had this thing when I was a kid, you know, I played because I loved it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I had this thing that I would never think of myself as being good until I was actually compensated for the sport.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I always worked and worked and worked to improve myself, improve myself.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I said, okay, one day I will be good.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I got tons of accolades and everything from, you know, high school and then college, etc.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, that's amateur, you know.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's different now for for college in in the States.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: But back when I played, it was amateur.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: There was no legal salary uh that you could get uh in collegiate sports like it is today, but I still never considered myself as good until I actually turned pro and I was able to, you know, be paid to play the sport.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: That was my kind of the defining moment.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, yeah, now I'm actually pretty good at this sport.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so was going pro kind of the plan all the way through for you?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I knew what I wanted to be ever since I was a kid.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I said, I played multiple sports, but I knew that I wanted to be a pro basketball player.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I set my path and everything that I did, you know, to actually achieve that.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't something that, you know, came later or it was that was what I I loved it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I watched all the NBA and collegiate and all those guys that came before me, and it was just so fun and and so exciting, you know, like I just loved it so much that, you know, I it was just my thing.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, someone asked me that before and I couldn't put a finger on it.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think I what I grew to love the most is the process of seeing myself, you know, at one stage, and then after the work had been applied, seeing myself at a later stage.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then also I took, you know, that competitiveness that I took mentioned about that I got from my uncles and took it to an entire different level.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was an extreme competitor and I love the competition.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is the thing that drives me the most.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love the competition.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I never actually, okay, I got paid, but I didn't play for the money.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I played to be the best on the court.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when I showed up to an arena, I wanted everybody to understand that I'm second to none.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about that with your uncle.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned the uncle's, you know, giving you that comp or perhaps focusing or sharpening that competitive edge.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: How did that work?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a lot.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: You talk to, you know, athletes who have become the leader in the sport, a lot of them have various different things that they remember.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it's the ability to focus and lock in and push away all the noise, the distractions, everything that I could have done as an adolescent that would have distracted me from improving at the sport.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I did I chose to prioritize improvement in basketball basically over all of the other extracurricular activities.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you say that focus and lock-in, right, is that something that's taught?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is it as in do you learn it or for you was it already there?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think because I was so fixated on my dream of becoming a pro and my love for the sport, I just innately decided that okay, I'm not going to let anything that's within my control derail that.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I took care of, you know, obviously the training and and what it takes to become a uh pretty good at basketball, but all the other things, all the other aspects that you need to take care of, uh school, your personal life, your all these things.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said before, there could be distractions or they could be deterrence in in the sense that if you don't perform well in the classroom, now you you're not eligible to play in collegiate sports or you know, whatever the case.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I made sure that none of that was ever an issue.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: It just came from my love and and really not allowing anything or determination to not allow anything to derail my dream.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting slant on it, because you're not saying you ignored academic abilities or getting the work done.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, you did it, so it didn't stop your eligibility to play, like when you're at college or getting into college.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh obviously uh the requirements that you have to meet to be able to be eligible to compete.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: But also the other thing is that I understood that basketball is only a portion of my life.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I wish that I could play forever, but I know that I couldn't.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I also excelled in those areas.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some people just decide, okay, I'm gonna put my effort only into this one thing and let everything else lag.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I saw that as in a way handicapping myself, if I didn't bring those other elements along with me as well, so that I would be able to, you know, like I have transitioned into a career that I have now.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, all right.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you think about the role academics played, you know, getting into school, doing the work, did you whilst you knew that you were more than a basketball player, did you already have a an an alternative career path in mind?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I knew, you know, as I said, I was I was very interested in biological sciences.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously I'm in technology now, but I knew that a basketball career is only a short portion of your life.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody can play forever.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I never actually had a desire to be a coach and still don't.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I do actually do it a little bit.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I helped some youth because someone helped me when I was their age, but I never had a desire to be like a full-time coach.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I knew that I would need some form of academia to go into a different, you know, career after my playing days were over.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, how did you find that balance between academia?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: So doing enough that it wasn't a barrier to you playing, but perhaps also doing a bit more because you were interested and you knew there was more to life after after basketball.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually kind of played a trick on myself.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is I think if if you would have if people would apply this, it could work very well.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: What I would do, I love the game, and it's easy to just ignore everything else and go and play the game, but I treated it like it was a reward.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to achieve a certain level of success in academia to be able to go practice.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, I would say, for example, like, okay, I need to finish this math homework before I go to the gym.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I would sit down, lock in, take care of that, make sure it was done well, and then now I can go do the thing that I really love to be.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how I approached it.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I guess if you want to call it a balance, I just kind of I just saw it as okay, this is my means to the end that I want to I want to get to.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost you're talking you're setting small goals and rewarding yourself just so happen, yeah, uh along the way.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not just this big thing, but you're breaking it down into chunks and that becomes part of that regular routine.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're going through college and you're seeing what's next, your eyes open up to the idea of going pro or turning pro, what was that experience like?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: What was that transition or shift for you like?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: How did that go?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was never actually worried about the basketball part, although I never, as like I said before, considered myself to be good uh until I was compensated for the sport.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I still had an extremely high level of confidence in the sport because of all the work that I put in.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the transition from collegiate to pro was easy in this sense of the basketball part.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was a pro in Europe, the challenge was, you know, being American and then going and living in a European country for 10 months out of the year.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And how am I gonna, you know, handle that?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And because it's, you know, Europe is quite different than the United States.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So how am I going to adjust for just to this change in culture and, you know, the people and how things are done, etc.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a thing that I kind of was somewhat concerned about.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: But again, you know, it's amazing how strong love can be, because I focus so much on what I wanted to achieve in love for the game that I said, okay, it's just like running sprints.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a part of the game, but nobody really likes to run sprints.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you do it because it's a part of the game.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you do it because it's part of the game, and you need to be in condition to be able to play and compete at a high level.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I just took it in the, you know, in the same, in the same similar perspective.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, if I want to be a pro, I'm not playing the NBA, I'm playing in Europe, I have to go live in another country, so I have to deal with it so that I can be a pro.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the basically how I how I decided to address it.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's that removing the barriers that might impede you achieving that big goal.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and sweep them aside.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where did you go f which country were you in first?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I went to Ireland.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing against Ireland as a country.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh a very lovely country, but the level of basketball there, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't so great.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I started out, you know, and kind of media levels, but I quickly went went upward uh in terms of the the level of competition and the level of uh you know countries that I played in.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: When I went there, I wasn't prepared.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what to expect.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But when I started to play, I was like, okay, this is I mean it's basketball, but it's not super, super competitive.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is the starting point.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see what comes next.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, y you talked there about the transition and in terms of playing the game, yeah, there were some slight differences, but still the same game.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: But the shift for you was much more social, geographic, cultural.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: How aware of those additional points were you before you got on the plane and landed in Ireland?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: In my defense, I would say, okay, I had a little bit of, in a way, priming before I went there because I had an opportunity while I was still in high school to go and play in Europe for a traveling team.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to Austria for two weeks and played there.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I got a small taste of it prior to, you know, actually going pro.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's different to go to a country as a basketball player versus just to go to a country because you have people waiting for you, people inviting you, you know, welcoming you there and all these things.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't it wasn't so difficult, you know.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, of course, there were some things that I missed over the time of over the poor uh the course of time being there, but I would say overall it wasn't super difficult to deal with, and the people were relatively nice to me.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now, twelve years plus as a pro player, traveling through Europe, you know, I I always think about those times and I ask lots of individuals when contracts aren't renewed, when there's always a discussion about moving on to the next thing, it sort of brings a level of instability to it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: How did you cope with that, you know, all the way through that career?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: There is a high level of instability.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Some guys can sign multi-year deals, some guys sign an annual contract.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So each year you're looking for a new team.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, I took it as, okay, this is an experience time in my life.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing the thing that I love to do.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I did understand that it could end in any moment.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: It could be something I could get injured, you know, whatever.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It could end in any moment.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why it was so important to me to have the other things not fall by the wayside, like the academia, those things.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't so concerned about not being able to, in a way, take care of myself.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would have been disappointed if I had some really bad injury and my career was cut short because of that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would have probably had questions like, what, what, you know, what if, or what, you know, what would have happened if that that wouldn't have happened.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: But fortunately for me, that didn't happen.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: But regarding the instability, I wasn't super concerned about it because I knew that I had, you know, a strong background in terms of academia to fall back on.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so during your career as a player, what extra, I'll say curricula, I mean, what things did you do outside of basketball to keep you moving, to keep you aware of what was going on outside of the game?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's funny, my friends may used to make fun of me because I'm a little bit of a nerd.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I really have a lot of time on your hands.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: You you go to practices and all those things, but then you have a lot of time on your hands, and like how you choose to use that time is up to you.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I I read a lot, and I would actually, you know, it's funny, I I'm gonna tell you this, I tell a few people this, but I actually used to go on the internet and I used to download math exercises, and I would actually do those.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that I would stay sharp in mathematics, and like I said, I would read books and I had a computer all the time, and I would, you know, do things on the computer to understand, you know, how those things work.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I used my time.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I hung out with my teammates and did, you know, those kind of quote unquote fun things, but I was always learning, you know, so that I wouldn't fall behind.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is you're the first person who has, I'm gonna say, admitted doing that, um, downloading math problems and and doing that for fun.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I hear it.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it it does make me think about you setting those small goals for yourself at university and getting the paper done, getting the reading done, which gives you permission to go out and hit it hard now in on the basketball court.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think if you structure things in the right way, you can create, you know, a self-motivation for your s you know, we can create a self-motivation.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it incentivizes certain activities.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the things that you may not particularly want to do, like some kind of, I don't know, report for some boring history course or something like this, if you incentivize it with okay, if I take care of this, I do it well, guess what?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: I get to go out and destroy my cousins on the court.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: I like how it sticks with you, but I like it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: You're finding structure.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's kind of how I frame things.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so during your time then as a player, did it ever occur to you that it was your last season that it was time to retire?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I suppose I'm trying to what I'm really trying to find out is when did you start to truly realize hey, this is gonna end soon.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think it was around 2012 or so.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I started, you know, really, really prepping myself for leaving basketball.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I still played for four years, but I started working on my transition at that point.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I a lot of guys will wait until it's over and then start thinking about, okay, hey, what what am I gonna do now?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I intentionally planned my departure, for lack of better words, over the course of those four years, preparing myself to enter the uh the tech scene in Finland.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I did.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I started that transition four years prior to actually leaving basketball.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: So what was the first thing you did?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well actually before that, what made you think this was coming that you were coming towards the your athletic retirement?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I you you just wore down a little bit.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I never had, like I said, I never had any bad injuries, really bad injuries.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I had some injuries, but never really bad injuries.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you you can feel that your body starts to tell you, like, hey, you know, you know, you've been doing this for a long, long time, and it might be, you know, maybe it's I don't want to and then I started to think like, okay, maybe I could play a little longer, but I don't want to be 50 or 60 years old and I can't walk because I played for too long.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I thought, okay, hey, this is a reasonable time frame to start, you know, an execute a transition, and hopefully it will be really smooth so I can go right from basketball and To you know, into technology.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so what did you shift?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: What did you start to either introduce in your routine or remove at that four-year point?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, I and when I was in university studies in the States, I didn't study anything technology-wise.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So during 2012, I say, okay, I'm gonna stay in Finland.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna travel around playing in any other country, so I'm gonna play these next years in Finland.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I actually did another bachelor's degree.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I entered a university program and I was going to school during the day, and then I was playing, going to practice and playing basketball in the evenings and on the weekends and things.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that program.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh, you know, a bachelor's program in IT, and you know, that was the start of it, you know, building the uh credentials and everything that I needed to transition into technology.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it started with our bachelor's program and then, you know, getting some small certifications and things like this that I could get so that I would be more viable on the job market.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's good foresight to see then how the market was shifting and that need or at least the benefit of finding a new skill.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have or what help did you have?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Did you know, is was there career guidance coach or counselor at the club or association level?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, no.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was just me.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a person that, you know, thinks about, okay, where am I now and where do I want to be?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just like when I started playing basketball.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was a kid and I knew that I want to be a pro.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, okay, hey, I'm gonna do the things necessary to get there.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just like at the end of my career, I said, okay, I know I want to go into technology.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't narrowed it at that point to cybersecurity, but I said, I know I want to go into technology.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can work in English and family, you know, there's a lot of opportunity in technology.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go in and I and I like it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go into it, you know, and then I'm just gonna see, you know, after a year or two of work, and see, you know, where do I want to specialize?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to, you know, what do I like the most within technology.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of my thought process and my plan.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I executed by like I said, I started it, I did the bachelor's program, additional certifications and those things, and then put me on my way for that.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds really good.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I I suppose with the reading that you were doing around the get or you know, in your free time, it helped you see where the market was heading and where those opportunities were going to start to come.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, how did that four-year plan start to take shape?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: What you know, what was that last year like of playing?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Was there anything new that you introduced, or did you start becoming more aware of the network or opportunities around you?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, most definitely.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: I there are too many stories of bankruptcy and mental health issues and four to the two time.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it's time to act.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activities, or it might be a time injury, or they need to to go to your careers between score and the top as a format interfaced for I have to have my condition on score into packaging strategy innovative, and now life coach career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to help those around me find their career second with.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: As you probably know, you know, a lot of jobs and roles that are given to people are a lot of it happens through connections and people you know and referrals and things like this.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I started, yeah, I I'm I'm typically a pretty private person, but I knew okay, I can't sit over here in my own little corner and do my thing.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have to expand out and meet people and you know, introduce myself, you know, not just as a basketball player, but as a, you know, IT professional and and and gain credibility in that area.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, because everybody knew me as a basketball player, but they they didn't they didn't, you know, I can also think and do things as well, you know.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had to build that credibility and I started working on that in my last job, I started networking heavily and uh meeting people and and you know, trying to, you know, set it up for, you know, once I actually stopped.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: What was the hardest part for you in doing that that networking piece, that reaching out, especially as someone who is a private person?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think the most difficult part was probably making the connection from a cultural standpoint.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Americans communicate very differently than fans, trying to understand what fans value on the marketplace in terms of employment versus, you know, American, because like I can't take my American, full American mentality and approach it, approach the Finnish market in that way.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just wasn't going to be successful.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I needed to understand those nuances, is nuances and differences in our culture and the ways we communicate and how I can build rapport with people.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest, it it wasn't easy because you know it took some time.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of trial and error, a lot of trial and error.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: What sort of things, what sort of things came up?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'll I'm I'm interested.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what what are these nuances or at least one or two of these nuances between the American style and and Finnish?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you know, Americans are, you know, we're a bit more in a way, what people use the word outgoing.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, small talk.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could sit and talk with you.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to know you or anything.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: I could say, how you doing?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's going on?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like say we're sitting in the airport and they just happen to be sitting next to each other in the terminal.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: We can just have a a small chat.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not a big thing in Finland.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people don't do a lot of small talk.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even though I played in Finland, it still wasn't something that I had to really address when I was playing basketball.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: But when I love basketball, okay, you know, hey, the small talk and, you know, uh like maybe I had to curb some of my directness, like s make it a little more subtle.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I had to tone down a little bit how I speak in terms of what what's the right way to say it?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say candor, you know, like I think for the most part people in Finland are are pretty straightforward, but like sometimes my bluntness can be a bit, you know, a bit much for some people.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: So like, you know, I had to make those adjustments to, you know, make the communication, you know, align that better and people would be more willing to listen and be open and accepting instead of saying, okay, that guy's like, you know, he's a a weird American guy.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, you know, I wasn't uh we weren't really on the same page in terms of communication.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to to get around that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're right, that networking, that communication is so key to finding a role, especially finding a good role where you know that you can feel at home.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And coming out of you know athletics, you you also need people who want to take a bit of a chance because we don't have or you wouldn't have that typical background.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so you need that connection to break through.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: So having to shave some of the typical American behaviors in order to assimilate better into a European culture.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: I like the way you had to do that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good story.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's and it's still ongoing because I'm still learning, you know, even I've been here for a long time, but I'm still learning like, you know, different cultural things.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a process and it's continuous.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and I guess now, you know, it's a home from home.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm interested when you made that decision to retire, how was that?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: How did you find that transition then from basketball then going into the traditional workforce?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, the team that I signed with in my last year, you know, I told them, and I said, hey, this is my last season playing, I'm gonna come here.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna take the same role that I have taken in team, you know, prior.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: I usually when I was on the team, I was the main offensive player, I was the main option, you know, in terms of our team, at least on the offensive side, I was a leader on the team.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was a leader on that team too, but you know, there were some younger guys that I said, okay, hey, you know, you guys take that role.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be in the quote unquote supporting cast, so in that role, I helped the team.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they were fine with that, totally fine.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I mentored the guys and helped in that capacity, but you know, once it it started to boil down to the end of the season, of course it's a sad moment because you know, like, hey, you know, this is my last season.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really gonna play at this level, and maybe I'll play like for fun or something, but I'm not gonna play at this level anymore.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And now I have to, you know, shift into something else.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and you just know in the back of your mind, like, at least I did, you know, I I really, really like my career.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm being totally honest, and you know, people can try to hold this against me, but if I'm being totally honest, like I don't love anything as much as I love basketball in terms of a career.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to find something that I you know I could actually get that joy and and want to, you know, strive to be pretty, you know, really good at it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that last year, like you know, just working working with those guys and finding those connections in terms of the you know the networking, I think it ended up being relatively smooth.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I will be honest though, when I actually left, it still took quite a while for me to get it my first role.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: It took about 18 months, like still.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Even with all the preparation that I put in, it still took about 18 months for me to get my first role.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you think drove that 18-month period?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you were ready, you were getting ready for four years.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you think it still took that amount of time afterwards?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: The job market is it's still a job market where natives are preferred.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm just being honest.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I'm saying that people aren't feeling discriminated.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm saying is that it's a comfort thing.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you want to be around what you're most comfortable with.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, fans are more comfortable with fans because they understand each other, etc.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when foreigner comes in or foreigner is trying to come in, it's a bit more difficult, you know, it's a bit more difficult.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it's understandable, but I think that that was the main thing, you know, just finding the right organization that was willing to, you know, so hey, we're we're trying to embrace, you know, a bit more diversity and the differences in people and getting that first opportunity.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Took some time, like I said, but uh eventually it happened.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, I mean that is good.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that those were the probably the biggest thing is that Sure.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean there must have been some highs and lows during that 18 month period.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: What were some of those points for you during that time?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and what were you doing during that 18 months?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely highs and lows, you know.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I just preparation and it's trying, you know, trying.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I knew at some point something would click.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I did at one point actually get so frustrated that I actually almost left Finland.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I almost, you know, I actually, I had a house and I put it on the market and everything.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of crazy because I put it on the market and I think it was maybe four weeks after I put it on the market that I got my first job offer.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, maybe it was like, okay, we're gonna test you for a while, and then okay, now but we want you to stay, so now you get a job.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of how it felt, but you know, that's kind of how it felt.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: But like, yeah, I mean, there was frustrating times, and there was a lot of different, you know, learnings where I had to, you know, okay, I talked to different people, and okay, is my CV okay?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Am I presenting myself in the right way, taking all the data points that I could to try and, you know, present the most acceptable case in terms of getting a role, and that took a long time.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh eventually I got it, I got it.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, but those highs and lows were, like I said, there were some frustrating moments there.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can imagine.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: But it sounds like you had people in your corner giving you those pointers helping to to shape your path.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had a I had a good uh support system in terms of that, people that, you know, most of people from the basketball community that I could say, hey, you know, people other either teammates or administrators from clubs that I knew had positions in IT companies and whatnot, I would talk to them and say, hey, you know, have a look at my CV form and tell me what's wrong.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to, you know, improve it.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want to, you know, you know, increase my chances of getting role.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then also the other thing is this lack of experience.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the only thing I had done before was played basketball.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, even though I I did the IT program, it's still it's still a new thing.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you're still you're still a fresher in a sense.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you so you have to people are taking a chance on you.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to f you have to find a way to convince someone to take a chance on you.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And who are the people who took a chance on you then?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: How did you convince them to take that chance and bring you in for that first role?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit ironic, to be honest.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: The first job I got was from a German company.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I won't say the company, but nothing against them.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really good company.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I I like working there.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I was in the interview, you know, we discussed the different things related to the role, and and I was a bit indifferent.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: The guy flat out asked me, he's like, Do you do you really actually want this job?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And in my mind, I have been denied so many times that my frustration level, for some reason that day on that interview, my frustration level was still kind of high.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, Yeah, I I want it.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm that's why I'm here in the interview, you know.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And but he's like, Yeah, I just don't see like any excitement really.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, man, I want the role.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that, and I said to him, I said, you know, I I've been dealing with a lot of no's.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's hard to get super, super excited when then the likelihood, at least from my experience, is that I'm told no.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and then he's he asked me, he said, you have a big gap.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you graduated from the school in the United States in this year, and then it's like 12 years of like, what were you doing?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I said, uh, well, you know, I was a pro basketball player.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then the room kind of lit up.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: The thing that the reason why I say it was ironic is that I believe that because of my background in basketball, that actually gave me even more of a lift than uh some of the other things I did prepare.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think that that would happen.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think that would happen, but it did.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I kind of know it happened because when I joined and I started meeting people, they're like, oh, you're the basketball player, you're the basketball player.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's what everybody was saying.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they must have spread the word about me coming there.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's kind of how it started.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: So So Ronald, are you telling me that originally your resume didn't have that 12-year basketball career in there?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't put it there because from what I was in a way instructed from people that I took advice from in the community, they were like, okay, well, in the United States, it's really celebrated.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Athletes are really celebrated, but in Finland, it's different.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you respect athletes, but it's like it's not like the United States.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you shouldn't add it there because it's not relevant experience.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's what that was what I was told.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't add that in my CD.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And this I've spoken to people the same way.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I say, I reckon every job I got since becoming a or since retiring from professional football, is because I played professional football.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because straight away, in the same way that when you walked in and everybody's like, oh, you're the basketball player, come with we're having the pickup game.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: You've got I want you on my team.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was the same thing for football.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's you know, amazing, amazing.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine, you know.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's it's just uh, you know, the difference in locations.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I think in certain places sport is more celebrated than others.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And at least what I was told in Fin in Finland when I, you know, initially started looking for roles, I don't gonna add that there.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people are people are it it might actually even be seen as a negative.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay, I won't put it.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so now, right?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there, that was the first chance.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: That was you getting in.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: The basketball history helped.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I do say for anyone listening and watching, we gotta celebrate what we've achieved through sport and how it has shaped us.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the lessons you spoke about already sound like they, you know, your lessons in coming through basketball have shaped who you are as an individual.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: So from that first role that you got, how do you think the traits, the things you learned in basketball helped you to accelerate through the company and and through roles after that?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, tremendously.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I always recommend that children play team sports because pretty much everything that you learn in team sports in terms of discipline, dealing with adversity, building your confidence, uh, you know, developing the right the right type of focus, all those things you need in life and in career to excel.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if you apply them correctly, you know, you can do pretty much anything you put your mind to in terms of a career, at least that's what I believe, because you know, I use that same laser focus that I used to push out, drown out all the noise when I was preparing to become a pro in basketball.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: I used that same discipline, I used that same determination that I had, and that same even competitiveness to excel in my career and to, you know, grow my career pretty fast.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and obviously you were stepping into a new sector outside of sport, but I mean also in in terms of cybersecurity, which has grown tenfold, if not more, since you entered the market.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: What is it that you know what is it that attracts you to that sector now?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because what was wonderful is you admitted openly you can't find as much love for doing something as you did in playing basketball.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now you have this other career.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: What is it then that excites you?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is it then that wakes you up to go to work every day, you know, in terms of what you're doing now?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember when I said I used to take those, download those math exercises.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: I love to solve problems.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Cybersecurity is that's basically what it is.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're managing risks and solving problems.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, once I got a taste of that, it was like, okay, this is what I need to be doing.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I started out really, really technical and solving a lot of technical problems.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can bury my head into a problem for hours and hours and hours.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm the kind of person who, for the most part, doesn't want any help, not because I'm arrogant, but because if I solve the problem myself, that problem won't be a problem for me again.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: But if I allow someone to help me, it won't be ingrained in my brain of how to come to the solution.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I force myself to push through when the solution isn't apparent to me, and I thought, oh, and then you get that aha moment when you solve that problem, it's like, okay, yeah, you know, and that that was the kind of new adrenaline rush.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why, like, you know, I really, really like cyber and what gets me up in the morning.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I can solve problems, I can help people, and I can protect, you know, my organization.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's brilliant.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: You had leadership positions in as a basketball player across different clubs and you know, over that period, the role that you played on court, but I guess off court as well in supporting others.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: How have you found leadership and management in your in your current role?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really see it as much different.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people try to segregate leadership as if it's different for a sector or it's different for a career, but leadership has the same underlying principles across all, in my opinion.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I apply the same leadership tactics that I had in sport to what I, you know, in my role in as a security leader in my organization.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh of course, okay, in some ways I might tone some things down in terms of maybe how I'm not gonna, hey, you know, do this, like I was saying on the court, like get the ball or rebound or something like this.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I I I don't yell at my team, but you know, the same, you know, bringing empowerment, you know, instructing and having them see, you know, the way that I think and taking in the way that they think and come into a coming to a uh a unified uh approach and solution, that breeds, in my opinion, mutual respect and trust within the team.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then it makes my team feel empowered that they can do.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Things and express themselves in a way that is beneficial for the team and for the organization.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: They don't feel constricted.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't micromanage them in any way.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I let them be who they are.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I let them operate freely.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I guide them.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: We have a direction as far as our strategy, but I believe heavily in empowerment in that way.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I did the same in sports.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I'm just writing that down here that you talked about those leadership principles being the same in sport and outside.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: And what I took there was empowerment with instruction, visualization and direction.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that builds a team with trust and respect.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I really like those principles and I guess the outcome of how that team trusts and respects one another.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really cool.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I I really truly believe that, you know, and I think that if, you know, some people seek leadership to have power, but I seek leadership to empower a um servant leader.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm removing roadblocks so my team can thrive.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: I give them the credit, you know.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just try to make it possible for them to be as good as they can be.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's good.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, beautifully said as the servant leader, but it's removing those roadblocks, which is exactly what you have done for yourself, to get to where you got to in in sport and now off field as well.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always looking for the synergy.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking for that cycle.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, you mentioned how you're coaching youth because people supported you and you were youth, and I just like the way it all comes back around.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so look, Ronald, I've I know I've taken a lot of your time and I've I've asked loads of questions just to try and understand your perspective.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've probably got just two more really, but the first one or penultimate one is when you think of young athletes or maybe old athletes relatively who are coming through and are perhaps seeing for the first time Yeah, this is gonna end.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have to do something else after this.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Based on your experience, what guidance would you give them?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, you know, don't be delusional about it, you know.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is a reality, it will end.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sport is, you know, for lack of better words, it's a young man thing.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you know no one stays young forever.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to prepare yourself for an exit.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the earlier the better, because if you don't, then I know a lot of guys who are just lost.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: They can't they don't know how to make that transition.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know how to step into the next thing.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they kind of just float around for a long time and they don't really know how to move forward.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think my biggest piece of advice is to, you know, understand that it will end, and then create a plan or strategy and a plan to execute to go to the next thing.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for that.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, last last question, really, you're gonna have people watching, listening this, who are thinking, hey, I'm interested.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want to perhaps follow your journey, follow your story, maybe get in touch and talk cybersecurity if that's something that's interesting.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the best place to find you and get in contact?
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: My profile on LinkedIn is public.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you can go there, I'm easy to find.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you just search Ronald Clark, you can put CISO for whole repayment services, and you will find me.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: And just send me an in, you know, a messaging box and I respond.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: I like to help people.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mentor people all the time.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: People contact me and ask me about, you know, how can I improve my career, or, you know, how what about this tool?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, how should I X, Y, and Z.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I like to help people.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the way forward for society.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you have something to offer, you should want to share that knowledge because, you know, it it's helpful for everyone.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, just reach out if you want to contact.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well said.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: And Ronald, thank you once again for joining me on the show today.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Really enjoyed our conversation.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise, and I really appreciate you inviting me.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hope to hear from you again soon.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this week's episode.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: Reshaping a career is a team sport.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Don't do it alone.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you want help working out your next step, it's all at secondwindadvisory.com forward slash academy.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Docker conversation is there, and the link is also in the show notes.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, a couple more things.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's how this show reaches the people who need it.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm right gonna solve it, take it easy, and I'll see you next time.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, before I do go, I want to drop a short title to declare at best quick design, analytics, and static podcast solutions, and to read and copy the content by local.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: Without them, this show would never have gone together.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.