Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Dr Simon Exton & Si Hart about The Web Planet (5/6)

Transcript

Talks to Dr Simon Exton & Si Hart about The Web Planet (5/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:40
Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt penknife that Doctor Who
0:43
commentary, podcast. See that just rolls off my
0:45
tongue. Now after all these episodes we
0:48
have a blunt initially. That's like yeah, so we're back
0:53
for episode 5 of the web Planet which is Invasion so it's all
0:59
going very well. So far, I think, although we've
1:03
got the jumping duvets now around a lot.
1:06
So we're going to see a lot more of them in this episode.
1:09
I Leave and some very weird and strange stuff compared to what
1:13
we've seen so far which has been weird and strange.
1:16
Yeah. Is this the one where you get
1:17
that fabulous shot of them looking up in that enormous
1:22
pyramid? Is that the Temple of Light?
1:25
Yeah, we're actually inside it looking up.
1:28
Yeah. I think so.
1:29
I think that's his episode. Yeah, yeah.
1:30
It's like the Kaleidoscope shot looking on and it's Lucy around
1:35
the outside. Don't need episode 1, the
1:37
doctor, any deaths and severe That's a fantastic.
1:40
Show us how well look. It's going to count as in this
1:44
style. I'll do it there because we're
1:48
ready to go. In five, four, three, two, one.
1:53
Go. Would it surprise you to know
1:57
that I've got a question for both of you and this time I'm
2:00
going to start with Simon. Okay.
2:04
This is a six-episode doctor who story and I've done a lot of
2:06
conversations about six and four wars in the past.
2:11
Do you think taken as a whole watching this as a whole, this
2:15
would be a bit more successful truncated to A4.
2:18
Or do you think this has enough incident and narrative for a 6?
2:26
I think this works well as a 6 because it gives the alienness
2:30
of vortice time to really breathe so you can have longer
2:36
shots with the Vaseline lens. Just enjoying how good the sets
2:43
look. I think I think it would be
2:49
really rushed as a four-part and not as good.
2:52
Although as a six-part compared to the stories that came around
2:56
it, it does come across as a bit slow.
2:58
I think that slowness works for it.
3:01
We're supposed to be seen was it as a whole.
3:04
I was always raised to be saying for 25 minutes once a week.
3:07
And it's just like a stab of weirdness over six weeks for 25
3:11
minutes. Yeah, and I say this to lots of
3:15
people who complain about things, like though the war
3:18
games being dull, the war games isn't dull.
3:20
It's a brilliant story isn't, but if you try much all 10
3:24
episodes back-to-back, that's really dull.
3:27
But if you watch one or two episodes of time, like, it was
3:32
supposed to be done, it is absolutely brilliant.
3:35
And that's true for pretty much the majority of classic Doctor
3:40
Who certainly 60s and 70s. It was never designed to We
3:43
watched as a as a single entity and when they wanted it to be
3:48
watched as a single entity, they re-edited it.
3:52
What? So it was shorter.
3:54
Yeah. Weren't there was, was there a
3:57
digest version of Genesis of the Daleks that were shown?
4:00
As and I think several Pertwee stories were was shown as sort
4:04
of as green deck. Yeah.
4:07
Green death and planet of the spiders had Omnibus editions
4:10
that cut out quite a lot of the Padding with these arrays.
4:15
Well, maybe if you know, well, would carve a flat, we'll give
4:17
it a go. What about you notice?
4:19
I will. Do you think what I like about
4:21
this one? I is that because of the way,
4:25
it's structured. Each, you've got free parts of
4:29
the crew split up, so they're having different strands of the
4:33
story. So Ian's got the optra, the
4:37
doctor and Vicki are paired together which is fun to watch
4:40
and Barbara's. Got got the stuff with them and
4:42
optra. They've all got different
4:44
strands to explore which I think keeps it fresh and keeps it
4:47
moving? Because you can move between the
4:49
different different members of the TARDIS crew and pick up
4:54
their stories and see how it's fitting into the hole so that
4:57
some structurally works really well in this.
5:00
So you divided it into free. So immediately you've got three
5:03
different stories happening at the same time which keeps it
5:06
moving. Quite well, you have Surplus
5:08
within those, why haven't you like hey Leo and the other fella
5:11
rough fighting? Yeah.
5:13
And and not try Invasion force and all that kind of as well.
5:19
Although I would car counter that because I think they do
5:22
exactly the same thing in the Romans each you get the dog from
5:26
Vicki together. Don't you?
5:27
And then you get Ian and Barbara whatever and that's for and it
5:30
just feels so tight as for and he's got Pace to it because I
5:35
don't think this has got much place to be if I want to know,
5:38
but it's not it's not designed to be that kind of story.
5:41
This is an And action adventure or historical romp.
5:46
This is more a chance to explore an alien world and what's going
5:51
on on that world. So having the six as Simon Says,
5:55
gives it time to breathe and get and to establish that and to
6:01
establish all the different parts of this world.
6:05
Do you think, do you both agree then like yeah, as a classic
6:09
Doctor Who fan that is nice to have like six.
6:13
Woods off. Well, you know I mean like you
6:15
know like you had a bad day or like you've got some day you got
6:18
a kill or something like that and you can have six episodes of
6:21
Doctor Who often some weird space completely take you out of
6:24
your life. Like the the extra leg for.
6:26
I think sometimes it's at there's a definitely a strength,
6:30
you know? Yes I do.
6:33
And when I was Newly out of hospital and recovering from
6:38
covid. I rewatch pretty much all of 60s
6:43
Doctor Who because I wasn't I wasn't really up to doing it
6:49
doing very much and all I could do is sit sit in my chair and
6:54
the DVDs that were closest to hand with the 60s ones and I
7:00
absolutely love them. Did your opinion shift on any
7:03
stories. I don't think so think so and I
7:23
recently watched the macra terror the commentary for that I
7:27
really like the mattress error but on this watch I became very
7:30
aware how it sort of went from being quite bold and Sinister.
7:35
The first couple episodes to being fairly labored for part
7:40
Doctor, Who story in the last two episodes plus of the
7:42
Dentures down a mine and things like that as I've defined my
7:47
opinion. Shifts, sometimes and watch the
7:49
watch. I find I get a lot more out of
7:54
things. If I know I'm going to be
7:55
podcasting about something because I'm looking out for
7:57
details. Yes.
7:59
So I'm like look for the strength to unless you want to
8:02
really rips out two pieces and why would you want to do that
8:05
with this? You know, but it's like Dave
8:08
Armageddon and day of Armageddon is a great episode But when you,
8:14
when you watch it for for details you realize just what a
8:17
terrible performance Katarina is and she's incredibly wooden and
8:22
it's really shown at that, very final sequence, where Nicholas
8:27
Courtney is there. But I'm pushing buttons and
8:29
manipulating controls and everything and she's just
8:33
staring off into the distance. Doing a publicity shot Simon
8:36
without everyone, never reached the place of perfection, she
8:40
delivers, all her lines that are very Chanyeol.
8:44
That's our one thing. Sorry that was so accurate.
8:47
Do not again. What like this your cat's ear
8:51
us. Reach the place of perfection.
8:54
Oh do you know what we're getting the episode 3 x
8:58
position. Now in episode 5, the explaining
9:01
about the Islanders and when it came along let's go for question
9:04
because I really have no idea what is the animals, what the
9:07
hardest So it because it can't move off the planet and it wants
9:15
to go on to the astral plane and sort of expand Beyond vultus out
9:22
into the universe. As I loved that Bloody great
9:25
spider into the Tardis. I don't think it wants the
9:28
Tardis. I think it wants the the
9:30
knowledge of the TARDIS crew, ah, because that the the final
9:34
sequence when we get on to episode, 6 is all about with the
9:38
knowledge that I gained from. Mew.
9:40
I will be able to, to invade all of time and space, so it's not,
9:46
it's not the Machinery, it's what's inside, the doctors had
9:49
that it once, as the absorption. Now, we're inside the temple and
9:55
it just looks beautiful and it's not, you know, we were talking
9:59
about we had that shot looking up.
10:00
Yeah, we did Alice terrific. I keep saying the word terrific,
10:06
but I don't know. I just there is something about
10:08
this. This shot here is, Lee nicely
10:10
framed with the monob turret with its back to us, looking
10:14
through into the rest of the set, which give automatically
10:17
gives it more depth and through their online.
10:20
Yeah, there are imaginative things that Richard Martin is
10:24
still able to do in the studio, even with all the constraints
10:28
he's got, Jerry is biggest problem.
10:30
Is he hasn't? He doesn't have time for
10:32
retakes, so I thank don't quite work.
10:34
Like the zombie crashed into the camera, things like that.
10:37
Well, the fellow in the Venom crab going across the set on
10:39
your skateboard. Or too big too fast.
10:42
They just have to go off and I think he did it.
10:43
Three carts, was it / ever sewed.
10:45
Yeah something like that. Wasn't a lot.
10:47
It was physically cutting the tape, wasn't it?
10:50
Like it wasn't a simple Affair to edit.
10:52
Yeah. And basically you've got the
10:55
vision mixer who's working from the camera script up in the up
10:59
in the gallery, switching between the feet of the camera.
11:02
So it's like that editing on the Fly and it's incredible that
11:06
they are clicking through and changing the shots.
11:10
Or in real time and piecing the episode together, sort of that
11:15
way. Whereas later on how it would be
11:17
now you would film it from one angle.
11:19
Then we would film it from the other angle and assemble it in
11:22
the edit. Here they are.
11:25
They're doing it as they go. TV was still being made in story
11:29
order at this point, wasn't it? Like they'll say, oh yeah, build
11:32
it in seen order regardless as to, whether that a strike up and
11:36
take down the sets you know. Yeah.
11:38
And you'd get your Your film work would be then played into
11:42
the studio in the time that you need it and on to the videotape.
11:47
So you've got those those extra few minutes that are done.
11:50
But even that's being done, while you're recording the
11:53
episode so that it can be pieced together as easily as possible
11:57
at the end. And it is what sorry cause I say
12:01
with the exception of a handful of episodes that were.
12:03
So technically complicated, they had to be edited on film or
12:06
transmitted from film. So that's how we ended up with.
12:10
Surviving episodes like will in space, 6 and underwater -3
12:16
because they were. So, technically complicated,
12:18
there were transmitted from film and ended up stored in the, the
12:21
film Library. It is worth remembering.
12:25
I may have mentioned this in our first recording of This 13.5
12:31
million people tuned in to the first episode of this and it
12:34
didn't Hemorrhage that much. I think it stayed in saw the 11
12:38
to 30 million of them but every now know there was, I've got
12:42
that I've got them. Here, I'll go for it. 13.5 12.5,
12:46
12.5 13, 12 and 12. So it is that, you know, season
12:53
8, Team would look at and weep. Yeah.
12:56
Absolutely. And you didn't get figures like
12:58
that, again, until the Hinchcliffe era.
13:01
Yeah. And then after that, the BBC
13:04
strike, and then after that, not till David Tennant's and Kylie
13:10
Minogue for The Voyage of the Damned.
13:12
So and can I ask both of you gentlemen, a personal question.
13:24
In terms of like sort of viewer identification, you know, given
13:28
what happens at the Cliffhanger of this story have either of you
13:31
fine. Gentlemen, ever been covered in
13:33
sticky white substance before Define covered.
13:39
So is very quiet right now. I'm blood shaking, I love Zelda.
13:47
Um, it's gross, isn't it? We're not there yet, but it is a
13:52
fairy never get properly webbed. They aren't properly wet.
13:58
Boy, that's his granddaughter, right?
14:00
Or the surrogate lie. All right, Simon, what do you
14:05
think of zombo defend is our B? Not a lot by the sounds of it.
14:20
Yeah, check your Twitter. Okay, I'm heading there.
14:24
Now I bet. It's it's alright.
14:27
It it really emphasizes just how much of a kid Vicky is, which is
14:36
great and it's the character that she's written to be and
14:41
she's like that with the zombie, she ends up being like that with
14:44
their did Chumley. A bit further down the line, and
14:47
sadly, the Beast. Well, yes, it comes to a very
14:53
sad ending. What's that?
14:55
For the record dots are X and has just sent an obscene future
15:00
57. So, I am myself I shall repeat.
15:04
What explain what's on there? Oh, I know this is the bit with
15:07
the acid now, it's not terribly far off as for breaking through
15:13
walls, are it out. So not occurring down here, is
15:15
it? Lets you sort of moving?
15:18
This whole thing is a way of keeping Ian out of the way while
15:20
Barbara sorts the blot out because this is very much
15:23
Barbara story The she incite the revolution Barbara.
15:33
She kind of controls his, she didn't really Insight it because
15:35
it's hilio and his failed Invasion and then trying to
15:40
recover the pieces from that, but she's the one that pulls
15:42
together. The plan that, that sort
15:44
everything out in the end. That's right.
15:46
She's got it all fixed and then the doctor one does in Denis and
15:50
tries to take control. And remember when they try to
15:52
take his ring off him and he gets really sure you about it.
15:56
Well, you would really wouldn't you love Liebherr blame.
15:59
Yeah. Oh yeah.
16:01
And this is very much like In, in the Dalek invasion of Earth,
16:05
climbing up, things in the mines, under the under the
16:09
ground, coming up and being sort of the action figure again.
16:17
But also for the Opera is, it's quite fascinating.
16:21
I like the way they, they talk in metaphor and simile and
16:28
because they, there's not enough light, they need to punch eyes
16:31
into the wall and things like that.
16:33
You said it really, really it really alien and odd.
16:37
The wall is silent. We must.
16:39
Yeah, how must give it mouths. Yeah.
16:41
It's not ice, isn't it? Yeah, and you know, the
16:43
novelization of this, the bills. Right novelization is full of
16:48
additional sort of metaphors like that, it goes into a bit
16:51
more depth. Well, it was one of the three
16:53
original novelizations, wasn't it?
16:55
Because there was this, and the Daleks, and the Crusade that
16:58
were acting that were written as full full fleshed out books
17:05
rather than the Terrance dicks pamphlets that came later and
17:09
that's not criticizing the pamphlets at all.
17:12
Okay, they're sure but they're brilliantly written, but this
17:16
was given a lot more or depth. All those corpses in the
17:19
background of that Temple. Those things on the list just
17:22
dropped on the ground. Having asks, They could be good
17:26
night. Is this like a coon's or
17:30
something? Everything about this says, or
17:32
suggesting beauty isn't is very sort of artistic.
17:35
Yes. Of terroristic says, actually
17:39
about those original novels, he tells a wonderful story about
17:41
how they released, but in the 60s, and they just didn't make
17:44
the distant didn't impact, as hope, they didn't really sell.
17:48
And then in the 70s fella, all the three of them slapped, you
17:54
know, up. Today covers with fantastic
17:56
artwork on them, put them out again and they sold like
18:00
hotcakes. And that's what's kick-started.
18:02
The target range of arm on the stomach.
18:04
A, I need new doctor Ubers get? Right?
18:06
And parents. Yeah, and yet his writings very
18:09
much like Agatha Christie in that.
18:10
There's a real Simplicity in the language, but he gets everything
18:14
across. There isn't a wasted word
18:16
economy in his prose again. Yeah.
18:20
That's good writing because it's not easy to write.
18:25
Simply like that and keep people reading and it's a lot more
18:30
difficult than writing long. Flowery paragraphs of
18:36
description to keep it taut like that.
18:38
And to keep the language fairly simple is really a technically
18:44
difficult, yeah, which is why go back to Agatha.
18:47
Christie her writing works today, whereas somebody like
18:51
Dorothy Sayers comes across as very old-fashioned Cuz of the
18:56
accessibility. Yes.
18:58
And because the excessive flouncing us at the language.
19:02
Now yo Marsh is the same but with Christy she wrote, simple
19:06
proud, she understood character and psychology and she delivered
19:11
it in a really simple way, how awfully?
19:14
Yeah, I mean, I do. I love Agatha Christie's work.
19:17
I reread everything. She wrote about every five or
19:19
six years. And yeah, she has that.
19:24
Brevity and simplicity, that puts across everything that she
19:29
needs to. And you don't realize she's
19:34
she's giving you key information Terrance.
19:36
Dicks is novelizations their short, but they do exactly what
19:41
they need to. And they are a wonderfully
19:44
entertaining read. He can capture a setting in a
19:48
paragraph and yeah, absolutely paint the picture of that
19:52
setting in about five lives. That would imagine all woman.
19:57
Yeah, she's not already that wall when I faced was melted
20:00
off. Off.
20:01
Did you see them do that? The funeral rites they all bowed
20:03
and started talking about my da react, whatever his name is and
20:07
saying this is something that we live with constantly.
20:12
Yep. And then focusing on the corpse.
20:14
Yeah. Hey camera lingers, doesn't it?
20:17
Yeah, and also, the reaction of William Russell watching it as
20:22
well. Which again sells the horrible
20:28
nature of it, because he's so skilled at just conveying that
20:31
on his face, like, like William Hartnell, he's very much some
20:35
similar. So the audience knows what's
20:39
happened, even if they can't see it, they can only just see the
20:41
some bottom sticking out of the rock face.
20:44
But they know something horrible has happened the screen as well.
20:49
It's a lawyer, it's horrible and The only way you can get away
20:55
with it, excuse me. It's like the wings ripping off
21:00
the only way that you can get away with it is because these
21:03
are soooo. These aliens are so alien.
21:06
Yes, Well, I went Katarina died in Dykes master plan.
21:12
You can see a sucks out there. Did you saw her in there?
21:15
Like you saw in space? But the actual Act of her dying.
21:18
Yeah, it doesn't own. See, this is where we know now,
21:23
we're headed towards the climax because the doctor, and Barbara
21:26
and Vicki. They're all starting to come
21:28
together again. Now, they're great plan.
21:33
So what's the plan? Well, to control him, you will
21:39
need his ring. That's drastic.
21:43
I work. So, what they say things in
21:44
zambo as a decoy Two hours being randomly, her who's being rude,
21:51
do you missed an innuendo? Oh, that's going on.
21:55
All right, that's a beautiful said.
22:06
That's an absolute that Oh, I love this.
22:11
They're Hollow. And why is he talking to them?
22:14
A doctor that's hilly. Oh yeah.
22:17
Helio the drama queen and Helio is an absolute drama.
22:19
Queen egos. You're not having this.
22:21
No, this is mine. Now I'm going to do this who you
22:24
got, but come on. Partner was the biggest drama.
22:28
Queen of all the doctors where he wants to be.
22:31
You can't accuse me of all this will you shut up sir?
22:38
I love that. We have basically hilio has got
22:43
the isotope, which is going to destroy the Animus has got the
22:48
power to destroy it. So they need to get it into the
22:51
center. It's and this is what they're
22:54
planning. Now more, I Brian makes the
22:59
suggestion that the Animus is like a cancer at the heart of
23:03
the planet. Is that made explicit.
23:08
It was certainly explicit in the planning stages because the name
23:11
carcinoma came from carcinoma. Okay, that's an extra layer
23:18
there. Isn't it to people watching it?
23:21
People have been touched by cancer.
23:28
Okay, I will who's the old guy who's the old after, he is so
23:31
cute for pileus. Yeah, I was lovely and he's kind
23:36
of talking, you know, Vice like this, a bit like Royce Galton
23:42
and there's familiar. Who's the, the younger man
23:46
optra, who doesn't really do very much, but she's she's
23:49
really cute in all the seams she does.
23:53
Can I just say? I mean they all look pretty
23:55
similar. The fact that we have been able
23:57
to determine their individual personalities watching it
24:01
without the dialogue. I mean there are some good work
24:05
it. I do like the fact that Barbara
24:11
wants the doctor's endorsement of her plan.
24:15
You know, their relationship has come on in Leaps and Bounds from
24:18
those early days. Yeah, there's a lot of
24:22
development for this but for Barbara I think and the doctor
24:27
particularly less. So maybe Ian and definitely
24:31
there. So I'm Vicki sort of over the
24:33
course but Barbara goes on a journey and particularly in her
24:36
relationship with the doctor, it changes over time.
24:40
It's not the Bedrock of those first two years, isn't it?
24:43
Yeah, it's always what's going on.
24:49
Okay. They're allowed to snooze now,
24:52
they've gone a bit overboard way.
24:53
Overboard on the Vaseline there, and I can Gary Cohn really see
24:57
what's going on. So, well, can you, you see the
25:00
Shadows on the backdrop? That was really apparent.
25:02
The light a bit more sympathetic there.
25:07
Never when have we ever let you know the old?
25:12
Exactly. Yeah.
25:13
I mean I think this is a beautifully realized alien
25:17
planet. We're going into the hole and
25:25
that the backlighting of the carcinoma and as soon as they
25:30
come in there, there's our beer just waking up and running
25:37
around and those poor fellow's inside, the zombie costume are
25:42
dumb benjin over at that angle all the time.
25:44
Their lower back must be killing them.
25:47
I feel sorry for the people in the bed of grass, hay literature
25:49
on their hands and knees. If we don't see the Venom grubs
25:52
very often, why don't you shoot from above, isn't it?
25:55
Oh yeah. So he's got a mirror shot to do
25:58
that so that he could get the angle because they couldn't get
26:00
up that high in Studio D. So he's filming on a mirror so
26:05
that he can look up at them. You can't approve, the visual
26:08
creates Say, all these people with no money to play with us
26:12
all. Yeah, so in the sets for this
26:14
story, were by a guy called John Wood and this is the first first
26:18
story that isn't designed by Raymond Cusick or Barry
26:22
Newberry. So this is, they're bringing in
26:24
a third person to come and do this and he gets off to a
26:28
tremendous start. Well, what does he do after
26:30
this? Lets, you know, he comes back
26:32
quite often I think but I don't know off the top of my head I'm
26:36
not so hot on set designers. Oh God.
26:39
Here we go. Look this enormous, Fallas comes
26:41
out the wall. Have you ever been to one of
26:43
those sprays that you a holes in the wall?
26:49
If you think that looks like a phallus, I've got news for you.
26:53
So figure seriously wrong better.
26:55
Go see a doctor then. Okay then they aren't they
27:00
think? We know I can give this thing a
27:02
bit of our routine but that is a massive thing.
27:05
That's sticking up our they're covering it in white stuff I
27:08
mean yeah yeah alright just your we'll go with that one.
27:15
Wait. well that is the rudest thing we ever seen tops, how
27:20
creation the pits come in and season 17 but and they did Go on
27:26
tell did the Tardis sniff router in the in the time monster.
27:30
Yes. How about inside finishes out
27:34
with one more? Okay, I'll always think of the
27:38
big claws coming out of access and that I of access dangling
27:44
down. But you know what, right?
27:48
I'm not give you nightmares. Now you don't have big plan in
27:52
the Tardis swimming pool. Oh yeah an invasion of time.
27:55
Yeah, Alex. An enormous vagina and it looks
28:02
like I'm so sorry. We will talk about metaphor and
28:04
visual creativity and fabulous performances and then after
28:07
lower the tone and last minute I do apologize yet but it's
28:10
nothing that we should have done it earlier.