Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / 186: Stacey Kalamaras | Collaboration in Trademark Law

Transcript

186: Stacey Kalamaras | Collaboration in Trademark Law · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• InterviewKalamaras-REV === Davina: [00:00:00] Hi everyone and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm excited to have with us today, Stacy Calamaris, who is the founder and lead instructor for Trademark Abilities. Trademark Abilities is a trademark training academy for lawyers. Stacy is a seasoned trademark attorney. She has. Many, many ex, uh, years of experience working with brands. 150 brands, I think all over the world, well-known brands. And so we're super excited to have her here today to talk about trademark abilities and ip, a career in ip and all of her knowledge, how all of her knowledge is culminated in this new project. So. Welcome, Stacy. I'm glad you're here. Kalamaras: Thank you so much for having me, Dina. I'm so delighted to be here with you today. Kalamaras: Wonderful. So why don't you take us back to, I always like to go back to kind of when we first become lawyers and what inspires us to become lawyers and if, if we went down a path that we expected to the whole [00:01:00] time, or if something evolved over time. So why don't you tell us, like young Stacy in law school, did you know you wanted to be an IP lawyer then? What was that like for you? Kalamaras: So Stacy wasn't young when she was in law school. Speaker: Younger. Younger. Kalamaras: So, um, so I was in law school in my mid thirties, but when I was young, I actually wanted to be a teacher. So it's kind of a full circle moment that now I, I have this, you know, wonderful, um, sort of second career in my legal career now, but my dad, who was an immigrant. Um, and wasn't educated, you know, uh, and was a self-made man, said, no, you, you can't be a teacher. You know, teachers are poor. And I was kind of, um, I was very shy as a child, which people who know me laugh at and think, that's really impossible. But it's true. I was very, very shy, but I had sort of an argumentative streak even when I was young. And I said to him, you know, if there were no teachers, there would be no [00:02:00] successful rich people, daddy. And so, um, I used to like to hang out with my dad. On Saturdays, he had his own business and I used to like to go down to the office with him and play on the 10 key. But when there were like days off from school, we would go have lunch with his, um, his corporate attorney, who was honestly, when I look back on it now, he was just a young guy out of law school and he took an interest in me and would ask me about school and what I liked in school and I would tell 'em that I liked to write. He was the first person who encouraged me to think about becoming a lawyer because he told me. And um, I am still friendly with him to this day and I have credited him in many interviews I've given to being the first person to plant the seed. He said, you know, Stacy, we need good writers in the law. Writing is a very important skill in the law, and we need smart women and we need good lawyers in the, in, um, good writers in the law. So he was definitely a friend and an ally. Um, [00:03:00] and I'm, you know, grateful to him. He was a dear family friend. But, you know, I think I sort of thought about it. My parents never really encouraged me. Um, it's not that they discouraged me, but they just didn't know. They always said we could grow up to be anything we wanted to be with hard work and determination, sort of the standard right immigrant line. Um, but you know, in college, I, I was studying to, you know, be a lawyer. I was a poli sci and, you know, philosophy major. I was set on sort of that pre-law path. I was also an amateur journalist in college, so I was very interested in writing. So I had a very similar path to yours, Davina, which is kind of how you and I connected. Um, but I, um, I took the LSAT straight out of undergrad. I applied to law schools. I was all set to go The summer after I graduated, I worked as a receptionist in a small firm, and I saw how the women were treated there. I wanna be clear, not by the other lawyers, but by the clients. The clients [00:04:00] refused to work with them. So the senior partners, this was like a five attorney firm. The senior partner would come out and greet the client. He was very sort of hippie esque. And he would say, oh, hi Mr. Client. So you know, you have a tax issue. You know, thanks for coming in. You know, I would see all this as the receptionist. I'm gonna refer you to my partner. You know, Susan, that's not her real name. And the client would say, no, no, no, no, no. Please. I'll wait for you. When are you free? Should I come back later? Should I come back tomorrow? Should I come back next week? No, don't to her. Whatever you do. Davina, I was so horrified. This is like in late July. So like in three weeks I'm leaving for school to go to orientation and I went home and said to my mom, yep, no, so this is like 1990. I believed the Virginia Slim commercials. I believed we had come a long way, baby. Speaker: Crying. Right, right. Kalamaras: Well, we, we clearly hadn't. And she's like, well, you're gonna have to tell your father. My dad was [00:05:00] very scary. Right. He was Greek, he was an immigrant. What the man says goes, by the way, in case you're wondering, my big fat Greek wedding is totally true. Um, so I, you know, I'm told him and he, he was angry. And so to placate him, I said, I'll go back when I'm like 40. I never intended to go back. But it ended up being almost a self-fulfilling prophecy and he is like, well, what are you gonna do? You have to work? Then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna work. I'm gonna get a job in marketing. I dunno what that was. So that started my career in marketing. I finally found my way to brand management and long story short, when I finally, after a few years, stumbled into a great brand entry level brand management job at the Nutri Suite Company. Because I was such a wannabe lawyer, I started, you know, working with our in-house lawyers, um, you know, who were corporate lawyers, but handled a variety of issues. And I was the junior [00:06:00] marketer and I was responsible for routing the packaging flats. And they would get so frustrated these in-house lawyers, and I was like, I don't understand. Well, the circle r's not right. The copyright statement isn't right. So I started asking all these questions and I started becoming invaluable. And then we were working with a large firm. I live here in Chicago. Um, we were working with a large firm here in Chicago who did all our brand protection work, and I thought we're getting weekly emails from like a ton of attorneys on all these issues. I still didn't know what IP was, but I quickly learned and I thought, huh, maybe there's something here. Now. There wasn't, you know, she Hulk and all these shows now that talk about ip. All there was was probably law and Order back then. Shows about being das and defense attorneys. And when I wanted to go to law school in 1990, that's what I thought I'd be. I thought I'd be a da, but I hated crim law. So, you know, everything happens for a reason and I'm really, it really does. And I'm really glad it did [00:07:00] because I learned a lot. I had a fabulous career in marketing and because I didn't have, um, business training, I was a liberal, liberal arts major, I started my MBA during my marketing career and you know, I have an MBA in marketing and I reached a point in my marketing career where I was like, you know, I agree with legal a lot more than I agree with my colleagues. So I just decided, um, when I was 30. Two, I think, or 33. I retook the lsat. I reapplied to law schools and I enrolled at 34 full-time. Left a very successful career and graduated at 37 and the rest is sort of history. Speaker: Wow. Wow. What a fascinating journey. And and it's, and it's true. We do have a lot of in common that way. 'cause my career was, my degree was journalism and my career was marketing. And I, I went to law school in, in later in my thirties and so I graduated, uh, at about 40 from law school. So I understand what that journey's like. I also [00:08:00] understand what it's like to have a career in the nineties and the in. I'm living the deep South and the good old boy network is strong in the south, and it was particularly in the nineties, and there was a lot to overcome in how. Men viewed women and how women viewed other women in, in the workplace at that time. So I, I totally relate to that. Kalamaras: It was interesting 'cause that particular female partner at that small firm where I was receptionist that summer. She wasn't, she wasn't nice. She, I didn't care for her and I thought it was, I, I'll be honest, and I've shared this story many times, I thought it was because she was just like, I figured the other men in the firm kind of were just mean to her. And that she had approved, she was better than them. I never did anything for her. They never really gave me anything to do. I'll tell you, it was the greatest job I read about a book a week. 'cause all they had me do was man the phones. You [00:09:00] know? It was one of those multiple systems. We had this interesting. System, you know, everything was like DOS based back then. Right? We had this interesting system where like if one of the partners was on the phone, I could send them, it was almost this pop-up Im, before there was like a OL messenger and everything was based on their three initials. I remember almost everyone's initials and I could send them. A popup where it would be like, your wife's on the phone or so and so client is here and it would pop up sort of like your outlook, you know where you can turn it off. Yeah. But your Outlook popup, new message thing. It was a really cool sort of system, but they had a couple, um, law clerks and I would say. Can I help you with anything? Like I felt guilty for sitting there reading books, but I read like 12 books that summer. All I did was answer the phones and greet clients. Um, but man, when she walked in, she just, it was almost like an aura. But when I saw that interaction, the [00:10:00] client begging, no, no, no, no, don't gimme her. It's like, it's like that senior partner was sending him to the electric chair and I was like, this is crazy. Like. I knew right. I'd have to, um, I'd have to combat issues with my colleagues, but clients maybe wouldn't wanna work with me. Oh, hell no. I was not gonna stand for that. Speaker: No, no, no. Well, I'm glad that you found your way back to the law though. Yeah. So tell me then about your law career. Mm-hmm. Um, I know you started your own firm at, at a certain point, but you worked for a couple different firms, so, yep. Kalamaras: Yeah, Speaker: gimme kind of the, the picture there. Kalamaras: Yeah. So I, uh, I graduated in 2005 and, um, it was difficult for me to, to find a job at first. And so again, I share this story because, you know, want people to know that there's no one way to find success. I obviously was an older graduate, [00:11:00] non-traditional first year as you were, and so you probably understand this path, but I was very intent on what I wanted to do. I had all this experience, I had business experience. Um, I only wanted to practice. Um, actually I set out to be an advertising lawyer, consumer protection advertising lawyer, doing FTC work, but I wanted to have an appreciation for how that Circle R that I had so many years experience, um, bringing to market and blowing up on the business side came into being legally. So I was looking both for IP and FTC work, sort of what we call, you know, um, IP and advertising work. Uh, and there's not a ton of firms that do a lot of advertising work, and I wanted to stay here. Um, where I live in Chicago, my first niece had just been born, but I couldn't find work here. So when I turned my sites to DC, a whole new [00:12:00] world opened up for me. Wow. But it took me about six months to land a job. I mean, I could have been offered a job doing Med now or general litigation, but again, I was smart enough, old and old enough to know that I could get pigeonholed very easily, and time was not on my side. So it took me about six months to find the right opportunity for me. I went out to DC. I worked for a medium sized firm that had already been acquired by the time I accepted my job. It's just, I didn't know that by an AmLaw New York 200 firm. Um, and so, which ironically had an office in Chicago, I was not real pleased, but I loved living in dc. It's a fun place to be an attorney. And, um, and then I went to another Amla 200 firm, and, uh, I lost my job at the height of the recession in February, 2009. But in my, um, in my young, um, career as an attorney, I had the privilege of working on some of the largest, um, household brand names, [00:13:00] and I represented brands in my real sort of, um. Sweet spot is global brand protection in more than 150 countries. So I haven't necessarily represented 150 household brand names, but I've represented really well-known household brands in more than 150 countries around the world. Um, wow. And I've, I've done it both on the trademark side and on the advertising side, but trademarks is really what I'm most. Well known for when I left my first firm. I, I straddled both the trademark group and the advertising group, but then when I left my first firm, subsequent firms don't have that advertising expertise, and so I really started developing my trademark chops. When I lost my job at the height of the recession in 2009, I did have, um, six of clients of my own. I was between my third and fourth years out. And, um, so, so others encouraged me to form my own firm. That was sort of the first iteration of Calamari law office. It was [00:14:00] an abysmal failure. I wasn't interested in being a law firm owner at that point. And all my clients went belly up, um, by the end of 2010. So, um, commerce law offices had a number of iterations, uh, in the 2010s. I, you know, also worked in house for large multinational corporations as trademark council. I've lost those jobs too. The 2010s were a very unstable, uh, period of time. And I, um, you know, just adapted as much as I could during that time. But I reformed my firm on purpose and then I went back to big law in 2014 and, um, you know, 2017 switched firms again. And then on purpose in January, 2018, I reformed Calamari Law Office, which became, you know, very successful and sort of a new age and social media and. Really established myself, did a lot of speaking and educating of clients and other lawyers, and started testing the content for what would [00:15:00] become trademark abilities. And then, um, I sold my, uh, book of business last June, um, for a number of reasons. I, I originally sold it to accept a senior council position at the world's largest candy company, and I did go there. It turned out not to be the right fit for me for a number of reasons. It was my dream job at the wrong time of my life and Speaker: Right, I understand that. Kalamaras: Understand that. Yeah. I think also trademark abilities. Were really just on the cusp of sort of that hockey stick growth, and I think I underestimated how much time I would have for that. And so, um, I decided to leave my position and really focus on trademark abilities full-time. So, uh, 2022 was a very interesting year, but, uh, yeah, Speaker: it sounds like, it sounds like you've had a whole interesting couple of decades. So I relate to that though because I remember when I, my intention going to law school was to start my own business right outta [00:16:00] the gate and. Kalamaras: It's so brave. I can't tell you how much admiration I have for that level of courage. I'm not that brave. Well, Speaker: thank you. Uh, and part of it was because I was older and I had already, I had worked in a firm in a marketing capacity, and I sort of knew what that was like and knew what I wanted. But I had just like everybody else, I had bombs, I had fears, and I, I was talking to my husband about it, and he's, and he had worked for law firms for, you know, 15, 20 years at that point. And he said to me, you. You know, you're putting too, you're putting too much pressure on this because a lawyer's career is long and varied. If you're, you know, you can, you can be a solo for a while. You can bring in a partner, you can go work for a firm, you can go back out on your own. You can get another job working someplace else. He said that's what lawyer's careers look like. At least the ones that I see at these, these big firms is they've done all kinds of things. To pigeonhole yourself into, it has to look this way. And I know there were [00:17:00] people at the beginning around me who felt that it had, unless you went to work for a law firm, that you weren't a real lawyer and, and said as much to me, um, in, in certain ways. And so I think it is, I think it's really an exciting time we're living in because so many women now, because of social media and the internet, there's so much opportunity for small businesses. To grow into big business and, and there's a lot more support among women. When I was working in the nineties, women were not supportive of each other because there were only so many seats at the table. Kalamaras: Yes. Speaker: And so new, new women coming in could threaten your seat at the table. And I, and now we see a lot more collaboration among women to grow businesses. And that's really bringing kind of a feminist aspect. To the legal field is collaboration, because that's what women tend to be more, you know, throughout the [00:18:00] ages. We're the ones who tended the hearth. We collaborated, we worked together to accomplish things. Right. So I think it's been interesting to see the shift in the legal industry from this sort of male dominated way of working where you're just working a hundred hours a week. I don't care if you've got kids, right? And so there's, there's a lot of changes that have happened, right? So I'm glad that you shared your story. 'cause I think that's going to, it's, it's, it's good for younger women who are trying to make decisions about their career to put, take a little pressure off themselves. If you work someplace for a while and it doesn't work out and you need to pursue something else, that it's okay. That doesn't mean you're a failure. That just means stepping stone. And you learn something in every one of those experiences. Kalamaras: A hundred percent. And you know, I think also, don't you agree it's so. I don't wanna say so much easier 'cause it's not easy, but we have so many more tools today to be a solo than there was, you know, 10, 15 years ago. [00:19:00] And, and I, I think that. I don't wanna say, you know, I don't wanna sell, I don't wanna date myself, but I think that those starting out today don't realize how much easier it is to be a successful solo, because I'm telling you, it was hard. Take the recession out of the equation, man. It was hard in 2009 and 2010 to be a solo. First of all, there was stigma. I mean, as you just alluded to, there was serious. Stigma to being a solo and that just doesn't exist as much anymore. And I think that is the most positive thing. And obviously there are trailblazers, right, who've been, you know, banging the drum and those coming before us, which is, you know, just amazing who've been championing for this. But we have just, technology has come a long way. And I know it's hard for those who are just coming out of law school now to remember, but you know, there were not all these tools and resources. And, um, Speaker: all, I always tell [00:20:00] people, I always tell people I started my firm in 2007 and Facebook was only about three years old at that point, and Instagram hadn't even been born. So that there were, there weren't those tools. You did your marketing the old fashioned way, which was networking events and Kalamaras: Yes. Speaker: A lot of rotating, even the practice Kalamaras: management tools didn't exist, Speaker: right? Oh, absolutely. No. Yeah, I didn't have, I mean, I, I tell, well, they were cost prohibited. They were cost prohibitive, so Kalamaras: well, yes. That, that, ' Speaker: cause the big firm had, case had case management. Uh, my husband at one point was, was on, uh, he and a partner started a business with case management and so. But it was big firms because those, those are the only ones who could afford them. So, Kalamaras: yes. No, that's a, that's Speaker: all firms had to do other things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kalamaras: But I mean, you know, in the trademark world, right? So everything's about files, but we, we didn't, we didn't keep electronic files. I mean, one of my colleagues had to show me where to order physical trifolds. From, you mentioned that to a young trademark attorney. Now they'd be like, what the hell are you talking about? Whatcha talking about Speaker: mailing things? Yeah, [00:21:00] Kalamaras: but I mean, you know, I mean, even though the PTO was still electronic, I mean we were keeping, you know, paper files. Now there were some electronic only firms, but you know, you have to understand, I also came out of big law too. So, I mean, that's also how I was trained. You know that you're right, that these tools were not, they were not accessible to us. So, Speaker: yeah. I, I worked in marketing when we were, um, when websites were just coming out and I looked an agency and we did websites for clients and we had to convince clients to have a website because, and they didn't really understand. And it's just a, it's a brochure that you gotta have Kalamaras: Yep. Speaker: Out there on this electronic way because everybody has one, so you have to too. And so just the, just the change of that and how that's occurred. And it's kind of interesting now because you see a lot of younger attorneys who don't even want a website because they do everything through social media. So it, it's very, it's gone Kalamaras: full circle and then overboard. Speaker: Alright. So it, so it's an [00:22:00] exciting time to be a lawyer and, and to be in the legal field and, and, and also creating content and resources for lawyers during this time. So I want, that brings us to. Your current business and what you really poured, uh, everything into right now, and that's trademark abilities. Why don't you tell us what it is first and then tell us what, what ins what drove you to create this because you felt there was a need for it. Tell us about that. Kalamaras: So, trademark abilities, really in its most simple form, is a practical training academy for trademark professionals. We primarily target attorneys, but it's also for paralegals. You know, recently graduated jds, you know, third year law students. Anyone who really has a desire. To practice in the trademark space and to represent clients confidently before the U-S-P-T-O. Um, that's in a nutshell our mission and what we do. [00:23:00] And this is a real passion project for me because the reason I developed this was when I went back to big law in 2014. Um, I was working with senior associates. I was about, you know, nine, 10 years out. At that point I was working with senior associates, one of the largest law firms in the world who didn't know the basics. They hadn't been trained properly. There's a lot of reasons for that. This is not a knock on that firm. Tremendous people. I worked with amazing colleagues, but there's so much pressure. On partners today, billing rates are sky high. Clients do not want to pay young associates to learn at their expense. And so, um, you know, trademark is a very nuanced area. And if you don't learn the basics, that just sort of snowballs on top of itself. And brands are incredibly valuable [00:24:00] assets. It doesn't matter if you're representing a startup or you know, a Fortune 50 company. These things matter. And so, you know, I just. Something that you said earlier really resonated with me about women, you know, making more room for other women at the table and being more collaborative. That's really what is at the heart of trademark abilities. When I first started this three years ago and started testing the content in 2018, I had people say to me, wh why would you train your competition? And I said, yes. So you don't get what we're about. I'm not training my competition. First of all, that's so shortsighted of you. No one trademark attorney can represent every client in the world. That's just ridiculous. I don't care how big you scale your firm, you just can't 'cause a, you're always going to have conflicts. And B, not every client is right for you. [00:25:00] So the fact that you even think that way means that you just don't get it. I want to help other people fulfill their dreams and their potential, and I really want to give back to a profession that I love. That I still practice in every day, just not as much as I used to. And I want to make sure that people are doing it right and at the end of the day, the clients are getting the representation that they deserve. I mean, that's really sort of the, the sneaky kind of end result, um, to make sure that clients are, are being protected that maybe. I'm spreading a little bit of my fairy dust everywhere. This is not about making sure that people practice only like me, that it's not what it's about, but just educating people. We, you know, base all of our education on the rules of practice. Um, trademark lawyers have a Bible, it's called the Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure. [00:26:00] All of our courses are based in the rules, so we teach based. On the rules, oh my God. Lawyers teaching rules. But we break down what those rules actually mean in real life. And I take all of my experience from the business world and working on these large portfolios to help break down to the attorneys in our courses. What do they really mean? How far can you push the line? How far can you really advocate for your client? How far should you advocate for your client? So we give really practical tips and resources. And I think that that's what really makes us different from other kind of boring CLEs. You know, we've all been through those. We all sit through those. We have to right to keep our licenses current. And our course is CLE certified too. So, um, that's Speaker: wonderful. Kalamaras: But it's a little bit different than any other CLE, um, because it's really practical base, right? You can take what we learn and you can apply it tomorrow. And you know, you know, being a solo is hard and [00:27:00] it's lonely and you can read as many rule books as you want, but you're left scratching your head going, yeah, okay, so I don't get it. What does that mean? Right, Speaker: right. Kalamaras: What do I actually do with that information? How do I fill out those forms? Trademark law, like other areas of law, like estate planning is very form-based. That doesn't mean it's easy, but it means it's, it's very sort of step by step. And, um, people who are very detail oriented would, will do very, very well in this practice area, but you have to sort of follow the steps and the rules and know where to find the information if you get hung up. Speaker: So that's, and it, and it goes far beyond the application process because I think a lot of, a lot of, a lot, I see a lot of, uh, IP attorneys on social media. Telling the client, telling prospective clients, don't do this yourself. Yes, you can go on the U-S-P-T-O site and there's [00:28:00] forms, or you can, you can conduct a search, but they're, they're warning them. But don't do this yourself. You need an attorney. And yet so many attorneys kind of will take the first step in, I, I learned how to file an application, but then maybe don't. Understand at a deep level what to do. Kalamaras: Yeah. Speaker: Once there's a problem and Right. And now we've shifted from, you know, this, uh, filling out a form to now we we're in a, in a situation where we're trying to protect our client's best interest, see if there's anything else we can do, and really advising and counseling them on the next step. It requires kind of a broader knowledge. Is that kind of what this covers? Kalamaras: Yes. So it's a strategic approach, right? So e everything we do is based on strategies. So yeah, and we, we see other attorneys and even attorneys for their firm. Everyone knows brand branding's important today, and as our world gets. Smaller with social media and [00:29:00] e-commerce, and I think we learned through the pandemic branding's important. It's how we stand out and those of us who are savvy and who are on social media and who market ourselves, we know branding's important. So we see, I'm not picking on any one. Practice area. We see PI attorneys now filing for trademarks, but they end up filing it for themselves. We see real estate attorneys, we see all different practice areas filing their own trademarks, and it's astounding to me they file it themselves. Well, I'm an attorney, I can do it. Sure you can. That doesn't mean you should. You can actually take a scalpel to your heart, should you? No. I mean, you wouldn't do that. You should go to the, to the experts. So, um, what's I think really interesting is that all of the other major world powers, um, require a competency test to practice trademark law at their IPOs, but the US doesn't require it. Wow. So even though we require patent [00:30:00] attorneys to sit for a specialized exam, we don't require that for trademark attorneys. But in Canada, they do. In the eu they do. In Japan, they do. In Argentina, they do, you have to pass a competency exam, but anybody with a bar card can file a trademark and represent clients, and they shouldn't. So yes, we approach everything strategically and we, we apply, you know, you are always talking about, you know, your framework nine steps, this, that we don't break it down that methodically, but we do have a framework, we do have an approach, whatever the problem is. If there's a, if there's a refusal of registration, that's called an office action. If they're substantive refusals, we have strategies and tips, and we have templates that you can work off of, and we offer a ton of support to help our attorneys be as successful as they can be. Um, and, you know, there's a ton of information in this course. It's very [00:31:00] overwhelming. I'm basically teaching people, you know, downloading, you know, 15 years of experience for them. So some people think that perhaps is a bit much, but I want people to feel like they're getting a lot of value out of it. And, you know, well, Speaker: people can take what they, I mean, they can take, they come in with different levels of experience and knowledge. So there's certain things that you can take or leave based on your own. It's very much like with my training. If you have people who already feel like they've mastered getting clients, well, then that part of the course won't mean as much to them as maybe adding to their team will. So everybody comes with a different experience. You also recently added something I think is really powerful and important, and that's community. Yeah. Why don't you tell us about that? Kalamaras: Yeah, so we always had a community for our, um, for our attorneys in the masterclass, but we, we've listened to people and so we just opened up our community to. To everyone, so to speak. So, um, we now have a, a paid membership [00:32:00] community called Trademark Abilities Insider. It's brand new, it's just launching. You'll be seeing more on social media from me. But basically we're offering the same level of support to our masterclass attorneys as we would to anyone who wants to learn more about trademarks or who's new to trademarks. Maybe they're not ready to take the masterclass yet, or maybe. They've been practicing for a long time and they feel like they don't need the masterclass, but they want a certain level of support. So we have monthly, um, it's to Speaker: network with other tr with Kalamaras: other creative attorneys. That's exactly because it's so lonely. So we have monthly q and a calls. We're gonna have buy monthly, sort of what I'm calling support calls like you have questions about, you know, maybe how to, uh, deal with a difficult trademark client, how to set up your fee structure. All of these questions. Um, we have special tips and resources inside the community that are not shared in our masterclass. We have an expert's corner while [00:33:00] I'll be interviewing, you know, trademark vendors and other experts that could be of help and knowledge to trademark practitioners. So all sorts of, um, of resources. We offer a seven day free trial. And we have two different membership tiers. You can just be a part of the q and a and networking part, or if you wanna be a part of our VIP area where you get all access to that extra support and feel like you're not so alone and have that sort of sense of community with others. Um, so I'm really excited about it. That's what I spent my Christmas break working on. And so, um, we're, we're really thrilled to be able to open that up to even more people who, you know, just maybe want the support but maybe don't wanna take courses with us. And that's okay too. Uh, this is not about trying to push our courses on, on everybody. Speaker: Right, right. 'cause it's not a fit for everybody. But for some people it could make or break there. Trademark career could really help them elevate very quickly [00:34:00] by having some deeper knowledge Kalamaras: because the mentoring aspect look is really important. You know, I, I have great mentors. I'm sure you have had great mentors. Um, you know, I can't individually mentor everyone, and I, I've also spoken about this in interviews and articles I've written so. Trademark abilities for me is sort of that way of giving back on a group, on a group level, and that's really what we're, what we're building in the in trademark abilities. Insider, Speaker: you mentioned CLE. How many CLE do you get out of this? Uh, course, if you remember, Kalamaras: how does 12 CLE Speaker: Wow. Kalamaras: Wow. 12 hours. So it's, it's a lot. Um. So it's, you know, but it's, it's a very robust force. And so, you know, if you, if you want to, you know, go through it, go through it all, and, you know, and apply for the, the CLE, we're, we're certified in the state of Illinois right now. I mean, obviously we, we are, we're not like the national CLE providers, [00:35:00] but those credits can be transferred to other states and, you know, we can help you do, you know. Provide whatever information you need to apply for the CLE credits in, in your state. So, um, wonderful. It's surprising to me that more people don't take me up on that, but, um, it's, it's there and it's, it's, uh, it's a great perk I think. Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Um, I, I'm, I'm facing down the barrel on getting my CLEs done because my, the clock is ticking this year for me, so I'm doing a lot of CLEs right now, and I know, when does Kalamaras: your reporting period end? So that's been the most interesting thing to me. Learning what the different states reporting. Speaker: Well, it's every, it's like every three years. So I am my, I'm coming up on, you know, everybody's is different. I'm coming up on mine. In May. So Kalamaras: in May. Okay. Yeah. We report at the end of June, and then I've learned there's some states, it's like September, October, some states do year end. So Yeah, we do the middle of the year too. Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what advice would you have [00:36:00] for, um, a, a trademark attorney who's just added this to their p They've just added trademarks to their practice. Kalamaras: Yep. Uh, Speaker: maybe copyrights. They are, maybe they had an existing practice and they were looking for a way to expand. So that they can move around and maybe not be stuck in one place working in a certain state. Kalamaras: Right. Speaker: What, what advice would you have to them as an attorney starting out in this practice area? Kalamaras: Yeah, so first of all, I, I think IP is such a great area for the reasons you mentioned, right? It's, uh, you can represent clients, you know, all over the country. I think it's such a growing area because. You can't read any newspaper or blog. Obviously I'm dating myself again, but whatever online area you get your news from. IP issues are so mainstream now and I think that even small business owners are paying attention to them. And so I, um, there is a lot of [00:37:00] competition. I'm not gonna lie, there's a lot of competition in this area 'cause people think it's fun and it's fun and the clients, um, tend to really be excited about this area. But I think it's important to, to make sure that you are grounded in the basics, and whether that means that you come here to get your knowledge or you take some CLEs from the A, b, A or your local bar, or do some self education, whatever it is, because what's so important is that the clients are really trusting you with their most valuable business assets. Um, and then I would just say, figure out what your niche is, right? I mean. This is your area of expertise, but just figure out who are the clients that you wanna work with. Figure out, you know, a niche and go after it and, and just educate your clients. Make sure that you're getting in front of the right people. But for an IP only practice area, and by the way, this dovetails very nicely with any other [00:38:00] transactional area, make sure you're meeting other attorneys too, because other attorneys, even though they're hesitant. To refer it out and think that they can do it on their own. To your point earlier about when things get a little bit dicey, they wanna know a really good IP attorney, so don't forget to network with other attorneys and things are starting to open up again. Make sure you're going to other events, bar events, local bar events, and just continue to do your networking. You can't forget about it. Not everything can be done on social media. You have to get out there and meet people in real life. Speaker: I liken it a lot to estate planning. Estate planning. You may have a lot of people, they have a family law practice, so they help their clients with wills, but when if a client has another need or it gets a little more complicated, they're gonna look for a more expert estate planning attorney that they can. Source that too. So, you know, outsource that because Yeah, really their expertise is in [00:39:00] family law. Yeah. And so I think this, this is kind of one of those things where a lot of people maybe have a business practice. Kalamaras: Yes. Speaker: And they, they do trademarks, but to a limit. So either this is a great resource for educating yourself. Or you can still outsource and network and find those people who are deeply knowledgeable on it because there is something below the surface. Right? Yeah. That makes it a deeper, uh, and impor and really trickier, right. Um, area of practice. Kalamaras: I think that's a great point. And the other thing too, that people often forget is, even though it's called the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Patent attorneys will often file trademarks, but it's very rare to find a patent attorney that has great competency on what we call both sides of the office. So if this is an area you really wanna practice in. Make friends with all the patent attorneys, you know? Yes, they probably file trademark applications all the time, um, but [00:40:00] they probably don't know how to do the more advanced, uh, features really, really well. Um, oh, Speaker: they probably don't enjoy it either because when you're a patent attorney, that is such an all consuming career in and of itself. I had a client, uh, who a few, couple years back, who was a really excellent, excellent patent attorney. General business, uh, like, uh, outside, inside council kind of thing. Oh, sure. Kalamaras: Yep. Speaker: And patent, and she always made sure she had somebody on her team who could do trademarks. 'cause she, she, she was such a smarty and she was focused on different inside of the Kalamaras: brain Speaker: working with those inventors on those patents and things like that. And so she knew trademarks, but she didn't love it with a passion. So she brought other people in to round out our team. That, um, def that's a great idea. Patent attorneys are a wonderful resource and ways to connect. Yeah, for sure, Kalamaras: for sure. Speaker: So we, so it's time to end. I've enjoyed our conversation together. So glad here. What so fast. I know. It's amazing how fast it goes. Tell us how people [00:41:00] can find you and connect with you and learn more about trademark abilities. Kalamaras: Yeah, so they can visit our website, trademark abilities.com, and we have all the information there. And, um, I'm very active on LinkedIn. That's my social media channel of choice. So I would encourage anyone to, um, connect with me on LinkedIn. Follow me on LinkedIn. I share interesting trademark stories three times a week and I, you know, give insights and sort of my, um, my. Insights into what I think happened there, what they could have done differently. We also have a trademark abilities page on LinkedIn. People should, like, we're on Instagram and Facebook too. Full disclosure, I don't really, uh, understand those platforms very, very well. I have people that manage those for me. Um, but uh, LinkedIn is sort of, um, my, my domain. So, um, yeah. And then my email is hello@trademarkabilities.com. And uh, also you can call me. It's [00:42:00] not, um, it's not a cell phone, so you can't text me, but you can call me at (708) 320-2033. Anytime if you have any questions. Speaker: Great. Thank you so much, Stacy. I really enjoyed our conversation. I learned a lot. I'm glad you were here. Kalamaras: Oh, thanks so much for having me, Dina. I really appreciate it.