Latest / Future Christian / Leading with Grace: Suzanne Nadell on Navigating Faith, Media & Polarization

Transcript

Leading with Grace: Suzanne Nadell on Navigating Faith, Media & Polarization · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
0:50
Suzanne Nadell. Suzanne
0:52
is an award winning journalist with 30 years
0:55
of experience working in local TV
0:58
newsrooms across the country. Her career
1:01
includes leadership roles at, ah, some of the nation's
1:04
top stations, including
1:06
WSB TV in Atlanta, the
1:09
number one local news station in America.
1:12
Suzanne's work has earned numerous
1:14
accolades including Emmy, Edward R.
1:17
Murrow and Associated Press awards.
1:21
Passionate about mentoring women and using her
1:23
talents to serve others, Suzanne is
1:26
dedicated to making a difference both inside and
1:29
outside the newsroom. She and her husband
1:32
Michael, have a teenage son and are active
1:34
members of Atlanta Christian Church.
1:37
A, uh, reminder, before we start today's conversation,
1:41
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
1:44
leave a review and share Future Christian
1:46
with a friend. Connect with Loren,
1:49
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
1:52
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonate, uh,
1:55
mediaproject with comments,
1:59
questions or ideas for future episodes.
2:02
We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully
2:05
discern the future of the church.
2:16
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
2:18
Richmond Jr. Today I am pleased to be joined by
2:21
Suzanne Nadel. Thank you so much for being here.
2:24
>> Suzanne Nadell: Thank you for having me.
2:26
>> Loren: Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation. Is there
2:29
anything else you'd like, uh, our listeners to know about you?
2:31
>> Suzanne Nadell: You know, I introduce myself as a wife, mom and boss.
2:34
So I'm someone who juggles the whole faith family
2:37
career. Spent the past 19 years in news
2:40
management, 30 and news. So I juggle a
2:42
lot, just like. Just like many people do.
2:45
>> Loren: It's funny, I think I bought a little knickknack from my
2:48
wife once. It said those three words,
2:51
wife, mom, boss.
2:53
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, three big roles.
2:54
>> Loren: Yeah, three big roles, for sure.
2:57
Share a few words kind of about your faith journey, what that looked like in the
3:00
past and what that looks like today.
3:02
>> Suzanne Nadell: Well, I'm a preacher's kid. Pk. I always
3:05
say, like, true preacher's kid. Grew up in a parsonage,
3:08
mom played the piano, dad the senior
3:11
Pastor at a church. So of course, that is, you know, deep
3:13
formation and all of that. Did all the things that preacher's kids
3:16
are supposed to do, right? Like, I went to a Christian college.
3:19
I was supposed to marry a minister, because isn't that what we're supposed
3:22
to do? It didn't happen. Uh, interesting.
3:25
I am one of those people that I would say my faith
3:28
journey, though my faith did not become my own until I was
3:31
an adult. I was the kid at
3:34
church camp and Sunday school. I had all the answers.
3:37
I did what you were supposed to do. But
3:40
I really don't think I was
3:44
really owning my own faith and had an
3:47
understanding of grace and hope
3:50
and love and all of those things until I
3:53
was later in my 20s. And then
3:56
different things happened in life that made that deeper and deeper.
3:59
But I would say that's the big. I fell away for a bit in my early 20s
4:02
because I didn't have a faith that was my own. My faith was the
4:05
rules that I was thought I was supposed to follow from
4:08
everything that I learned as a kid.
4:11
>> Loren: And, uh, you really talk about that more in the
4:14
book. But Cher, maybe just for our
4:16
listeners here, what. What kind of helped spark.
4:19
Spark that or renewed that for you?
4:23
>> Suzanne Nadell: Probably a lot of things. I think
4:26
a lot of it was just compounding adulthood.
4:30
I was a newlywed
4:33
in my first really, really stressful
4:36
job, and I realized that
4:39
there had to be something more. And I knew what that something
4:41
more was. I will say there was a moment I
4:44
had an aunt who passed away, and at her
4:47
funeral, they had like an old school
4:50
invitation. And that was like a wake up moment
4:52
for me. And I was after her funerals when I
4:55
started going back regularly. And
4:58
then it was just getting involved more and more. And I would say it
5:01
ebbed and flowed until my
5:04
cancer journeys, you know, later, of course, that, you know,
5:07
deepens your faith, but just life,
5:10
you know, My parents did a great job of laying that
5:12
groundwork, so I knew there was more
5:15
there. It was just really
5:17
discovering for myself that I
5:20
needed
5:23
that faith and that spiritual walk and
5:25
everything that goes along with it.
5:29
>> Loren: If m. I can go off script for just a moment. I feel like your
5:31
journey really mirrors so much of what we're seeing
5:34
in the broader culture of young adults.
5:37
Kind of, I don't want to say losing or letting go
5:40
or. I'm not sure what the correct wording is here,
5:43
but sort of not making faith their
5:46
own for that kind of young adult period.
5:50
Your journey really mirrors, I think, what is happening in the broader
5:53
culture I'm curious, when you look,
5:57
what lessons do you think you'd advise to either
6:00
parents or church leaders? Just
6:03
real quickly here, to
6:06
me, I think there's some inevitability to it and the only
6:09
thing that parents or church leaders can offer is just continued presence
6:12
and care. Do you think there's anything more?
6:15
>> Suzanne Nadell: I think also a focus on spiritual
6:18
practices, not as a checkoff box.
6:21
Yeah, I understood some
6:23
spiritual practices, but they were more of a checklist. Like I
6:26
was supposed to read the Bible every day because that's what good Christians
6:29
do and I was supposed to memorize it. But,
6:32
uh, um, we didn't do work on Sundays because
6:35
we didn't want, you know, the church board
6:38
seeing us doing things. It was more of a
6:41
checkoff box and not understanding spiritual
6:43
practices to, uh, feed your
6:46
soul and have a deeper connection. So I
6:49
think the connection behind spiritual
6:52
practices and I would say the
6:54
relationship, I didn't
6:57
understand the relationship
7:00
with the Spirit and Jesus
7:03
and God, you know, the Trinity and all of those things,
7:06
it's focusing on the relationship and less of a
7:09
check off the box.
7:12
>> Loren: It's interesting as you say that because I certainly
7:16
many, I think many people myself include who grew
7:19
up in a more conservative context, understand that kind of check
7:21
off box mentality around spiritual practices.
7:24
And there's that transition of finding things you can
7:27
own for yourself.
7:29
Are, uh, you willing to share anything that's been resonant for you,
7:32
resonated with you as a spiritual practice of late, or
7:35
has helped, perhaps renewed for you?
7:39
>> Suzanne Nadell: I think a few things that I've focused on as I've gotten older is a
7:42
true understanding of the Sabbath m
7:45
and taking a break and how that was created
7:48
for me. I would also say I did not
7:51
grow up in a culture that talked about
7:54
the Spirit, the Holy Spirit very much.
7:57
And part of, I think exposure in
7:59
newsrooms was being exposed to people
8:02
of different faiths and cultural backgrounds.
8:05
And there are some cultural backgrounds that are very, where their
8:08
chur, you know, traditions are very
8:10
tied to the Spirit.
8:12
>> Loren: Right.
8:12
>> Suzanne Nadell: Uh, I will say, you know, becoming close to my black
8:15
sisters, many of my black sisters, has really like
8:18
gotten me in tune with the Spirit and
8:21
just even in conversation and how the Holy
8:24
Spirit is there all the time. And again, that's
8:27
not something we talked about in uh, my culture. Growing up in my
8:30
upbringing very much and being
8:33
in tune with that, that guide,
8:36
that advocate there for us. I would say that
8:39
and Sabbath are my true. Like the two that I
8:42
really lean into as an adult, that I didn't
8:45
even Think of as
8:48
a child, teenager, young adult.
8:51
>> Loren: Well, that's. That's great. Thanks for sharing those. I appreciate that
8:54
perspective.
8:55
Well, I had. Suzanne. Suzanne, I'm sorry, I'm struggling with your
8:58
name for some reason today. Suzanne on the podcast today.
9:01
She's the author of the book Wired to Lead. Being
9:04
the leader the church didn't think you.
9:07
And I'm looking forward to having some conversation
9:10
around some themes in your book. But
9:13
let's begin the conversation in this
9:15
way.
9:16
Uh, when I read the book and I think, correct me if
9:19
I'm wrong, seems to be structured very much in this way. It's like a heartfelt
9:22
letter. And I'm curious, when you sat down to write
9:25
it, what were some things that you were carrying, some burdens you were
9:28
carrying that you really felt like you had to get out?
9:32
>> Suzanne Nadell: Why I felt like I needed to write this book,
9:36
I will say so badly, you know, I just knew
9:39
for years I needed to write this book,
9:41
is that I felt alone in the church
9:44
world for so much of
9:47
my life. And I
9:50
wanted women who were like me to know they're not
9:53
alone. I wanted young girls and girls in college
9:55
to know they're not alone,
9:58
that you are loved the
10:01
way God made you to lead
10:04
and do all of those things and lean into
10:07
those gifts. And that doesn't make you less
10:10
of a Christian woman. There's just
10:13
so much for the Christian woman
10:16
who chooses and feels led to
10:19
stay at home and have the kids and
10:22
have that traditional. There's just so much.
10:25
And I've just never felt like there was much for me. And I'm like,
10:28
I know there are more women like me. So I'm like, well,
10:31
maybe I'm one of the people that has
10:34
to get out there and let folks know
10:36
you're not alone. And I want other folks to know they're
10:39
not alone.
10:41
>> Loren: Yeah, great, great. I think that really comes
10:43
through throughout the book. So
10:47
something that certainly speaks to your context.
10:50
And again, you as a, uh. What. I'm not sure
10:53
the term you use for yourself. So ministers in the
10:56
marketplace, we might say, broadly speaking, working
10:59
in a news. In the news field, news media.
11:02
I think the thing that stood out to me the most was.
11:05
And the thing that I'm more really interested to talk about is,
11:07
like, your experience in news media and how.
11:10
I'm curious how that
11:13
experience and learnings can be applicable to
11:16
churches and church leaders.
11:18
So I think I want to start, uh, that
11:21
conversation with this, where we talk about, or you talk about in your
11:23
book, that the churches have created Bubbles. And I think
11:26
we've certainly seen that so much.
11:29
Not just in church, of course, but in our whole American
11:33
social context right now. So many bubbles, whether on social media,
11:36
I mean, that's, I think, primarily where we get it. But
11:39
how do you encourage,
11:42
I mean, not just in the church, but that's primarily
11:45
my focus here. But how do you encourage
11:47
churches and others to get out of those bubbles?
11:51
Uh, especially when we think about telling hard
11:54
truths in this polarized world that we live in,
11:57
it's so hard to say anything that's going to be.
12:00
You almost have to filter everything through the bubble. Does that make
12:03
sense?
12:04
>> Suzanne Nadell: Right. Well, it starts with looking at
12:06
who's at the table.
12:08
>> Loren: Mhm.
12:08
>> Suzanne Nadell: And that's one of the lessons, I call them, the life
12:11
lessons that I learned in a newsroom that I wish I learned in church
12:14
is who's at your table. And at every
12:17
gathering, if everyone looks the same, I
12:20
would say if everyone believes the exact
12:23
same, we've got some non negotiables that we believe in. But
12:26
there are other thoughts to
12:29
bring to the table. So it starts with seeing who's at the table. So if I
12:32
look at a news editorial meeting and it
12:35
is all people who look like me, from the same
12:37
socioeconomic background, who think like me, who
12:40
even operate the same as me, we're not going to do a
12:43
good job of representing our local
12:46
community because we're only going to be coming at it from one
12:49
viewpoint. If we're the church and
12:52
we're supposed to be
12:54
reaching everyone,
12:57
how are you going to reach people who
13:00
aren't like you if you don't understand what their
13:03
thoughts and perspectives are? And that
13:05
starts with inviting them to the
13:08
table. My pastor always says, you know, church is, uh, you
13:11
know, church is supposed to be one big table. And
13:14
who do you have at your table? Whether that be your
13:17
dinner table, your lunch table, your table at.
13:20
But it starts with looking at who's at the
13:23
table and who is it that you need to bring
13:25
to your table.
13:30
>> Loren: I want to stay in this point because I think it speaks to something
13:33
else you write about in the book about encountering
13:35
discomfort.
13:38
You write that you felt
13:41
like in the newsroom.
13:44
Newsrooms are more willing to
13:47
go through these uncomfortable conversations or topics
13:50
or themes. And you write
13:53
that, sadly, I felt called to that mission in a
13:55
newsroom more than I have inside the
13:58
walls of the church because many churches are uncomfortable with this
14:01
idea of getting uncomfortable. And I think
14:03
that's just sad in general. But do you want to talk more about
14:06
that? How You've experienced that.
14:09
>> Suzanne Nadell: Well, in church, let's be real. It's not a job.
14:12
People don't have to show up to it. You know, it's optional.
14:15
And I think there's this fear that we're going to scare people off,
14:18
right? So we're careful about what we say.
14:22
We don't want to have the discord. We're afraid
14:25
they're going to go away. At the end
14:27
of the day, that's someone's choice, right? But
14:30
you don't bring it up or stir something if you don't talk
14:33
about it. You know, I write in the book that
14:36
I, uh, I was an adult
14:39
before. I outright heard
14:42
racism bad. This is racism.
14:45
Calling m people out on it.
14:49
Um, things like loving your neighbor. Who is
14:52
your neighbor? Having those true
14:55
conversations. It's hard.
14:57
I get it. I grew up in a preacher's house. I
15:00
understand it's different
15:03
than a workplace. But as
15:06
followers, to ensure that we are
15:08
loving our neighbors, that we are being the hands of
15:11
feet in Jesus, there are some real conversations
15:14
we need to have in our smaller
15:17
groups, in our churches. And I would even go to say is
15:20
the pulpit as well.
15:22
>> Loren: So let's dive. Let's dive in a bit, a
15:25
little bit more here. Because again, I'm thinking like
15:28
a news station. Like, you're competing for viewers, right?
15:31
Like at some point, like, you want people tuning into
15:34
your newscast, and you can't control whether
15:37
they change a channel or go to another,
15:40
uh, another news channel or another
15:43
news site, for instance. So there is some kind of,
15:46
like, filtering your. Your.
15:49
Your storytelling or this. The. What you're
15:52
communicating to them similarly, I can imagine. And certainly
15:54
you. I imagine you felt this from your father
15:58
or in your family growing up. Like, you
16:00
don't, uh, there's a preacher's kid. The preacher doesn't want to sleep,
16:03
anger all the Karrigans and run them
16:06
off. So I'm just curious, like, how have
16:09
you, in your leading in the newsroom,
16:12
kind of. I'm not sure the right
16:14
wording here. Filtered is maybe not the right word.
16:17
Structured. Manage your communication
16:20
to speak the truth, but in a way that people can hear
16:23
it. Uh, and similarly, like, what thoughts do you have about,
16:26
again, in a church, from a church leader or pastor perspective,
16:29
like, communicating these, uh, important
16:32
messages, but in a way that people are going to tune
16:35
in. Does that make sense?
16:38
>> Suzanne Nadell: Uh, part of it's through making the people connection.
16:41
I would say a lot of it's through the people connection.
16:44
If you're just talking about ideas
16:47
and you don't know the people.
16:50
And by the way, you're talking about people that folks
16:53
don't even expose themselves to.
16:56
>> Loren: Right.
16:56
>> Suzanne Nadell: How are they going to connect to it?
16:59
So uh, it then again goes back to
17:02
who are you exposed to? Are you living in that
17:05
bubble? Are you so against it because you
17:07
think everyone thinks is you already and it's a no brainer
17:10
because you're just in that bubble. I would say it
17:13
news. And you could maybe look at this a little bit too. If it's a
17:16
controversial story that I know the nation is divided on and I'm
17:19
getting like, you know, nasty emails from both sides. I would say as
17:22
a journalist, we've done a good job that day.
17:24
>> Loren: Right, right, right.
17:27
>> Suzanne Nadell: And sometimes, you know, I have to say that
17:30
uh, you know, the facts are the facts,
17:32
the they're, the
17:35
people are people and
17:38
it all comes down to connecting
17:41
those stories and people. That's so much of
17:44
why I say what I've done is so close
17:47
to what my dad did. It's, it's people and their stories
17:50
and it's what they're going through and you know, advocating for
17:53
them. But yeah, if you're trying to
17:56
shift thought space.
17:59
>> Loren: Mhm.
18:01
>> Suzanne Nadell: Without connecting to the people you're talking about,
18:03
you're going to have a hard time.
18:07
>> Loren: That's important. I appreciate that observation. I mean obviously,
18:10
obviously we might say right in the church space, like
18:13
we're actively counting on the Holy Spirit doing some of the work. Right.
18:16
I don't know if you can count on that in the news media space. Right.
18:20
But I appreciate that point about
18:24
breaking through those bubbles to build connections to the
18:27
people that you're encouraging people to care
18:30
about.
18:32
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, yeah. It's
18:35
partnering and that could be with partnering with a
18:38
church in another community.
18:41
It can be what you're doing for your outreach. It
18:44
could be how welcoming are you to people coming into
18:47
your congregation? It can be. I mention in
18:50
the book, you know, organizations, there's Be the Bridge, which is a good
18:53
one. I mentioned that in the book. There are similar organizations.
18:56
What I love about Be the Bridge is when you first sign up for like their
18:59
social media channel, you're not even allowed to say
19:01
anything for a certain time. Part of
19:04
it is just listening at first to take into
19:07
uh, take it all in. And that's a huge part of
19:11
everything as well. How well are we
19:14
doing at listening to others?
19:17
>> Loren: Yeah, let me stay on this theme because uh, I think it's where
19:19
I'm most interested and I'm hoping it's helpful
19:23
to the Listeners, certainly.
19:27
Hopefully. I'm not being too disparaging of news media right now,
19:29
Suzanne, you can tell me. But it seems like, at least
19:32
in some cable news circles, like,
19:36
there are news media channels that are very focused on a
19:39
certain segment of the
19:41
populace that is who they're communicating to.
19:45
I won't name names. How does
19:48
one stay out of that tendency? Because I can imagine
19:51
even in your context that you've worked in, there can be a
19:54
temptation, and certainly this is true in church,
19:57
to just speak to those who are
20:00
on the same side of me. So you're not getting
20:03
any.
20:07
All the emails you're getting are just from one side saying, hey, we
20:10
hate what you're saying, and you're getting a bunch of go
20:13
Suzanne or go preacher emails.
20:16
Uh, how do you avoid just siloing or
20:19
channeling to one particular side or
20:22
the other?
20:23
>> Suzanne Nadell: Well, you're referring to cable, and I can't speak to.
20:26
I have not worked for, you know, a cable outlet. I, uh,
20:29
would say local news is. Is very
20:31
different. And we've got the research to show that people still
20:34
trust local news versus cable outlets. I do
20:37
think some of that has spilled over. And I think when you talk
20:40
about affiliations and everything, too, that confuses
20:43
people in their minds. I will say, in local
20:46
news, how have we. And I've worked with a company
20:48
that's been very good at tracking our trust scores
20:51
compared to our network and all of those
20:54
things, like, all through, to make sure that we keep our
20:57
trust. And, you know, the station ownership
20:59
group that I've been a part of, we realize trust is our most
21:02
valuable strategic thing that we
21:05
have. And how we've kept that is we've
21:08
stayed at the core of who we are. And that's
21:11
journalists. And that is
21:13
both sides. That is facts, that
21:16
is people storytelling, that is
21:19
voice for the voiceless, all of those things.
21:22
So staying true to who we are,
21:25
I would say that can go to the church.
21:29
Staying true to who we are.
21:31
Are we loving God? Are we loving people?
21:34
Or are we becoming a congregation?
21:37
>> Loren: That.
21:37
>> Suzanne Nadell: That is a place centered around a political view.
21:40
And we're more about political
21:43
lines than we are going back to the
21:46
message at keeping Jesus as the center. If
21:49
you're keeping Jesus at the center and his message to love God,
21:52
love people, really Take a look. Are
21:55
you really loving God? Are you really loving people?
21:58
That's at the core of it. So I'd say with both of those
22:01
things, it goes to the
22:04
center of who we are. Are we.
22:08
Are we being true journalists?
22:12
Are we being True lovers of God and
22:14
lovers of people.
22:16
>> Loren: It's interesting what you point out about the trust level
22:19
being higher for local media. And
22:22
I'm kind of curious, A, what that's about or, you
22:25
know, if you have any insights on what that's about.
22:28
And I think, B, I think it sort of reflects again, of what
22:31
I've read what we're seeing on the national level about,
22:33
like, distrust or mistrust of
22:36
institutions writ large. But like. Oh, I know.
22:39
I mean, does it really just boil down to, like, personal relationships, like
22:42
you've said already?
22:44
>> Suzanne Nadell: I think it does, uh, a lot of it with people.
22:48
I think local news, there are a few things we are
22:51
dependent on for public safety. So we are very
22:54
much more. Neighborhood community. You could take to other
22:57
church as well. Neighborhood community. Down at
23:00
the, at the center, you're on the ground level. You're
23:02
who people turn to. You connect to
23:05
people. Like, that's something in TV journalism we have
23:08
over digital things. There's that connection to people.
23:11
You get to know them. I mean, I.
23:15
We have to be careful that we don't get the spillover that's
23:18
happened in the cables. And I could go to
23:21
a lot of thoughts of why the cables ended up where they were and
23:23
agendas and different things, which is a
23:26
whole thing on its own. But I would say the thing
23:29
about local is we are local
23:32
journalists, local businesses, local people
23:35
in the community with people
23:38
covering news that impacts them on a ground
23:41
level every, uh, day. And, you know, we even have to
23:44
talk about, you know, there's a lot of stuff in the news
23:46
today. How much is it that our local audience is really
23:49
into that? How is that speaking to the people in our community
23:52
today?
23:55
>> Loren: Yeah, and it gets to something I was going to ask about here.
24:00
You write, dear Church, once you know the truth, what are you going to do about
24:03
it? Uh, thinking again through your context of, like,
24:05
news, you know, when you're, when you give a story
24:10
that perhaps is a national story,
24:14
and thinking about, like, oh, do I make this? You know, do I need to bring this
24:17
down locally? How do you discern? And again, what do you advise
24:19
churches similarly? Because, again, I think there can
24:22
be this temptation. I'm not in the context where I'm preaching
24:25
every week because I don't have to deal with this, but certainly amongst some of my
24:28
clergy friends, there's this temptation. Every time something happens
24:31
on the national level, it's a big story.
24:34
There's this, oh, I got to rewrite my sermon on Saturday
24:37
night type thing.
24:40
You deal with that. On some level,
24:43
on a local level where I don't know what, the five
24:46
o' clock newscast, six o' clock, ten o' clock, whatever.
24:49
Uh, thinking from my own context, you have some
24:52
of those pressures where, like, oh, do we
24:55
redo our entire newscast? I mean, I don't know. You can tell me.
24:58
But what does that look like?
25:00
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, today's a perfect example. The Pope died. Right? Okay,
25:03
so we're in Atlanta. Not a huge, huge Catholic community. I
25:06
would say if I'm in some cities I've been in, no brainer.
25:08
Well, how are we going to connect that to the Atlanta community?
25:12
If you just want international Pope coverage, you're going to go to the
25:15
cables for that. We're not going to out cable. The cable or out
25:17
national. The national. So how do we tell the
25:20
Atlanta stories to that? Well, Atlanta is a very diverse
25:23
community. He was kind of known as like, the
25:26
progressive pontiff. What is he
25:29
connected to? How did some of the things he
25:31
stand for impact what we've got
25:34
going on locally in Atlanta?
25:37
I would say for someone in the church, before you
25:40
go there, what's going on big nationally, how do you
25:43
connect that to talking to your congregation
25:46
about how they're going to live every day if you're not giving
25:49
them a takeaway that is actionable
25:52
and real? And how are we doing it? If you're just doing
25:55
it to give everyone riled up, you're just getting
25:58
everyone riled up and, you know, talking,
26:01
what are you doing to take that message
26:04
and what's going on to put that in everyday practice
26:07
to be the hands and feet of Jesus?
26:09
And so the question, again, that we ask in news
26:12
is, how are we doing that to connect
26:15
to our local community in a different way that connects
26:18
to our viewers? And again, I think
26:21
you could just take that with a congregation as well. How are you
26:24
connecting that specifically? Bring
26:27
it home, bring it down, bring it local,
26:30
bring it every day. And how do you connect the
26:32
dots in that?
26:35
>> Loren: Yeah, that's helpful because, like, my media
26:37
consumption tends to be mostly like sports
26:40
radio. Uh, not as much as now. I'm not
26:43
driving as much. Uh, but that's something
26:45
like one of the afternoon drive shows. Like, they do
26:48
that really well all the time, where they'll start with
26:51
like this big kind of national
26:54
sports, and then they always bring it down, like you said,
26:56
to like. And to me, it's such a
26:59
easy transition. It makes sense because I get the best of both
27:02
worlds as a sports fan. Like, I'm hearing about
27:05
the, the big whatever happening in
27:08
The XYZ League. But also, like,
27:11
it's appropriate to my context as a. As someone who
27:14
lives in Denver and follows local teams.
27:17
>> Suzanne Nadell: Right, yeah. The context, we call it the context, perspective
27:20
and relevance. What is the context to what's going on?
27:23
What is the perspective and how is it relevant to me?
27:28
>> Loren: I'm going to keep talking through this because I think it's really interesting, again,
27:31
thinking about, like, a pastor.
27:34
So there's a big national story breaks, the Pope
27:37
dies. Right. Let's just stay in the story because, I mean,
27:40
we're obviously timestamping ourselves here,
27:43
recording this on the Monday the Pope died.
27:46
Um, so the Pope dies, and
27:48
we're thinking about, like, let's say Pope dies on a Friday, Saturday
27:52
afternoon instead. Like.
27:55
And I want to mention something about the Pope in my sermon.
27:59
So I've got to figure out some way to, like, mention
28:01
the story and then try to find some connection
28:04
to what. Something the Pope was about that's relevant to my context
28:07
or church. Then is that fair?
28:10
>> Suzanne Nadell: Correct. Correct. And I think, you know, depending on your stance on the
28:13
Pope, could be different with this
28:16
Pope in particular, the different, you know,
28:19
ways you could go. But, you know, let's say, you know,
28:21
that it's, uh, you know, caring
28:24
for the orphans and the migrants and,
28:28
you know, what drove that and what
28:31
are you doing in your community, like, here? One of the things that we did
28:33
Newswise today is we've got a huge Latin American association.
28:36
So we initially, of course, we went to our Latin American
28:39
association, um, to talk about, you
28:42
know, their efforts and how, you know, he's. He spoke
28:45
to them, you know, how he, you know, not
28:47
alienating people,
28:49
uh, whichever way you
28:52
wanted to go. Yeah. Thinking about how he
28:54
connects, how his message connected, how that
28:57
message connects to it.
28:59
Um, a lot of different ways you could go.
29:02
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:02
How about the other side of this? Because, like, I'm thinking again,
29:05
there's so many news stories that happens or so many things
29:08
you could put in the news. How do you discern, like,
29:11
what. This is an important story, but just not. Like,
29:14
I certainly felt the pressure where, like, you have to say any.
29:17
Anytime a story breaks, you're like, I've got to put this in the
29:20
sermon somehow, or I've got to mention this on Sunday and at some point, like, it just,
29:23
like it doesn't fit. So how do you discern that?
29:26
>> Suzanne Nadell: Not everything does. We talk about the impact and the value.
29:29
Like, is it something that really needs to be discussed right now? But
29:32
no, not everything makes the cut. Not everything makes the
29:35
Cut. And you have to decide. You have to be
29:38
strategic. Right. Like if you're jumping on
29:41
something every week,
29:45
it's can get lost.
29:48
So what has value to it?
29:52
What ah, has impact? What's
29:55
you know, your people, you know, your congregation.
29:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:59
>> Suzanne Nadell: You know what's going to resonate with them the most and which things
30:01
are rising to the top.
30:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:05
So I want to, I want to come back to one more thing from your book. For sure.
30:08
So don't miss this. You talk about the
30:11
importance of kindness and I'm thinking to
30:14
stories you wrote in your book about talking
30:16
amongst yourselves in the newsroom about difficult conversations.
30:20
I'm thinking about how there's been so many challenging
30:23
topics in the last four or five years
30:27
that churches and leaders have had to wrestle with.
30:30
A pastor or church leader wants to
30:33
speak truth.
30:35
How have you seen that navigate really well where someone is
30:38
speaking truth? Again? Maybe it's even from the
30:41
context of the newscast where
30:45
your anchors are speaking truth, but they're doing it in a kind way.
30:50
>> Suzanne Nadell: Again. It's realizing you're talking to a person.
30:53
And that's what I think we've forgotten with social media.
30:56
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:57
>> Suzanne Nadell: It's just become okay to forget that
31:00
that person is a person. My boss
31:03
says and I say to my news managers, let's
31:06
assume every day
31:09
the action being done in the newsroom or that
31:11
conversation comes from a place of good
31:14
intentions.
31:15
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:17
>> Suzanne Nadell: And we have to
31:20
realize that people.
31:23
We're talking to people, we're talking
31:26
about people.
31:30
And for some reason it spilled into again. We
31:33
could have a big broader conversation
31:35
but we've forgotten that we're talking to
31:38
people about. About people.
31:42
There are people I'd write down in my journal.
31:45
So and so. If I'm having a hard time with a person, I'll say so
31:48
and so is a child of God. Like just
31:51
remote remembering. Every person we're talking
31:53
about is a child of God. The person you
31:56
cannot stand the most right now in the
31:59
climate is a child of God.
32:03
Remembering we're talking to a child of God. I remember
32:06
that. I have to remind myself of that in the
32:09
newsroom. It's taking that pause.
32:12
>> Loren: Mhm.
32:12
>> Suzanne Nadell: Before you even talk to that person. What kind of
32:15
headspace do I need to be in right now?
32:18
But yeah, everybody is a child of God. And we have to
32:21
remember that.
32:22
>> Loren: Let's stay on this trend because I think it's interesting.
32:25
You're so, uh, you write in your book about
32:27
you're purposely finding some ways
32:31
to get boundaries and we should come back to that. If we
32:34
have time.
32:34
But I want to talk about this because you're talking about trying to stay
32:37
centered, stay grounded amongst the
32:40
chaos. And I'm thinking like, especially you being so
32:43
dialed into what's happening. You write in
32:46
your book about peace comes from being reminded there's more
32:49
to life than your present circumstances. And there is one,
32:52
I'm assuming that one, it's God who is looking out for you.
32:56
Talk more if you can. Share about like, again,
32:59
whether it's someone like you in news media, whether it can be
33:02
a pastor or clergy person or church
33:05
leader, there's so much going on in our world right now. And
33:07
we're often so dialed in because of social
33:10
media or other things that we can easily
33:13
find ourselves. I know I can. Being
33:16
aflutter from all that's
33:18
happening. How do you find that
33:21
peace for yourself?
33:23
>> Suzanne Nadell: You have to force yourself to disconnect. This is where I said
33:26
Sabbath earlier is very important. And by the way,
33:31
if you think that
33:33
your world cannot go on
33:37
without you.
33:38
>> Loren: Hm.
33:39
>> Suzanne Nadell: You got a couple things going on.
33:41
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:42
>> Suzanne Nadell: First, you're not trusting people and you
33:45
don't have the right people around you.
33:47
>> Loren: M. Mhm.
33:48
>> Suzanne Nadell: You're also not trusting God. And I would
33:51
go as far to say you're trying to play God.
33:53
>> Loren: Mhm.
33:54
>> Suzanne Nadell: There's only one person who can control everything. There's
33:57
only one person who's perfect.
34:01
We don't have to be that plugged in
34:04
all the time. And God
34:07
created Sabbath for us.
34:08
>> Loren: Mhm.
34:09
>> Suzanne Nadell: We've got to disconnect. That's where we get the perspective.
34:12
Because if you're just getting stuff in, in, in, in, in, it's
34:15
overload. And everything is going. And how
34:18
do you sort out what. What God is really telling
34:20
you about that versus what people are telling you
34:23
if you don't slow down to sit in it and
34:26
think about it. So that comes. It's trust. I say
34:29
it's trust. Was my word of the year for a while. And
34:32
trust was about trusting the people
34:35
around me, trusting myself in
34:38
the way God made me to be, and most of all, trusting
34:41
God. I believe a lack of Sabbath
34:44
at the core of why many people don't Sabbath is it's a
34:47
trust of God, a lack of a trust of trust of God that he's going to take care of
34:50
you. He's going to take care of everything
34:53
around you. It's about trusting God.
34:57
>> Loren: Got to write that down here. Uh, lack of
35:00
Sabbath, lack of. Lack of trust.
35:03
So it sounds like boundaries are really important then.
35:05
So let's, let's Continue on on that theme,
35:09
what have you. I kind of liked what I don't want to
35:12
maybe I don't know if I want to say for you, but share if you would, what
35:15
you've had to do or what's been helpful for you to like set
35:18
some rigid boundaries for yourself. I appreciate
35:21
the example of your husband. Right.
35:23
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah. I've had to get some good people around
35:26
me at work. That's, you know,
35:29
something that I've had to do. People I could trust.
35:32
I've had to do a lot of self work on it.
35:35
I've had to be very clear with the people I work
35:38
for and the people who work for me. I talk
35:41
about zones in house. I believe there's uh, good
35:44
physical boundaries. Like right now I'm doing this from my
35:46
office, my home office. This is my book
35:49
stuff. This is not my station stuff. This is not my family
35:52
stuff. It has a place. I try
35:55
really hard, unless I just need a change of scenery
35:58
to only do work in the house in certain areas.
36:03
>> Loren: Mhm.
36:03
>> Suzanne Nadell: If I'm not doing work in the living room, that means
36:06
that is a family place. And then when I'm with my
36:09
son, I'm not distracted
36:12
and they see that too. So I love.
36:15
It's called work zones. There's a book called the Leader
36:18
that um, you want to be and she talks about work
36:21
zones. And in a time where more and more people are
36:24
working from home, I think that's very important. I write in the book
36:27
Covid was like the worst boundary time for me ever.
36:30
>> Loren: Right, right.
36:31
>> Suzanne Nadell: I was just working all the time,
36:33
everywhere. Complete lack of boundaries.
36:36
>> Loren: Yeah, I remember especially in the height of COVID
36:39
it really felt like we weren't working from home, we were
36:42
living from work. You know what I'm saying?
36:45
Uh, so that was challenging.
36:48
I want to ask before we finish this part
36:51
of the conversation because you're obviously someone who's
36:54
in communications and I think communications is so
36:57
essential for churches and pastors. Do you have
37:00
anything? The thing I always joke about,
37:03
I want to have a stand up comedian on the show because they're obviously really
37:06
well at engaging their audience. Saying a comedian
37:09
has to do well about maintaining
37:12
engagement with an audience for 30, 45 minutes. Uh,
37:15
your episodes, your news episodes aren't necessarily that long,
37:18
but do you have any tips for pastors or folks
37:21
who are on stage at church for good
37:24
communication practices?
37:27
>> Suzanne Nadell: Storytelling. So look at storytelling as through
37:29
people's stories, whatever you can put
37:32
around a person helps people, uh,
37:34
identify. And then I would just always
37:37
say we call it pacing.
37:40
Think about what you have and where. And that just
37:43
keeps the, the flow going,
37:46
breaking things up. Like if you've got long
37:48
stretches of anything next to each other, it tends to
37:51
slow down. So think of things as
37:54
like a film strip and films like they put
37:57
different sizes next to each other.
38:00
So always thinking about
38:03
varying where you put things. And that helps
38:06
the pacing of things. It keeps moving it around.
38:09
So stories and pace, those are two
38:12
things we always talk about. Stories and pace.
38:14
>> Loren: Can you give me an example from like a newscast, what that might look like?
38:17
Is that like you have a short story, then a long story type thing.
38:20
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah. So it's not putting a lot of things the same length
38:23
back to back. It's not putting too long
38:26
things next to each other. It's like, you know,
38:29
doing something, getting people in off the top,
38:32
then putting, you know, a little something and then a little something
38:35
longer and then like maybe a couple of short things,
38:38
then something longer. So it's like spacing out
38:41
like where you have. So yeah.
38:43
>> Loren: Okay. So if I'm a pastor and I'm writing a sermon, then I'm
38:46
going to want to have at least a couple
38:49
stories in there. Right. About people.
38:52
So I guess, um, if I have a long quote or a long
38:55
segment, like I want to break that up with a
38:58
shorter quick thought.
38:59
>> Suzanne Nadell: Correct. You don't want to put too long quotes back to get
39:02
back.
39:03
>> Loren: Okay.
39:03
>> Suzanne Nadell: You don't want to put too long
39:06
readings back to back. You m. Want to
39:09
break them up with. With something. So
39:12
whether it be a quick story or a quick
39:15
transition. Um, but break
39:18
them up so you don't have length next to length for
39:21
a long time. So break things up a bit.
39:24
But stories I would always. Wherever you know,
39:27
and when I preach, I always try to start with a story. You
39:30
figure uh, out where, where that spot is that you can
39:32
connect it, uh, with a person and stories. And I would say even. I was even thinking
39:35
of your whole service where I was saying you don't want long things.
39:38
Like you want to make sure that you're thinking of your service. If you've got long
39:41
readings that day, what are you putting around the long
39:44
readings?
39:46
>> Loren: So obviously, I imagine in your local broadcast
39:49
commercial breaks, I don't know about. In a service we have
39:52
commercial breaks, mind you. But again, thinking about
39:54
like teasers and those transitions.
39:57
Any thoughts on. I don't know if
40:00
you want to build up a teaser maybe for the.
40:03
From the worship singing to the
40:06
sermon. But what thoughts do you have
40:09
whether either within the sermon or the Whole service at
40:12
large.
40:12
>> Suzanne Nadell: Probably not a teaser in any's cast. Even though you
40:15
could say if you're a church that has like a
40:18
board up in the beginning, you know, with slides,
40:21
you can have like kind of a, you know,
40:24
what's coming up or something there, uh, to
40:27
do that. But I would say, yeah, you don't have commercial
40:30
breaks, but where it is, you do your hellos with everyone.
40:32
>> Loren: Right.
40:33
>> Suzanne Nadell: Where it is, I would say in your. Keeping in mind
40:36
who you're having do what each week.
40:39
So if your communion liturgy person is a slower talker
40:42
that week, is your open and closer or your,
40:44
your reader a faster paced person. Okay.
40:47
Uh, you know, thinking of those kinds of things too.
40:50
Like, you don't want your two slow talkers on the same
40:53
day. Again, this is like
40:56
ideal world. It's church world. Sometimes it's whoever you've got to do
40:59
with that week. Let's be real.
41:00
>> Loren: Yeah, right.
41:01
Okay, uh, last thing here before we take a break. Any
41:04
like, I always like to ask this question to folks who are
41:07
in communications. Like any, like, anything, like
41:09
pastors or communicators should like, immediately start doing
41:12
or stop doing from what you've seen.
41:15
Ooh.
41:19
>> Suzanne Nadell: Immediately stop or start. So just remember, simple.
41:22
Okay, Simple. I'd say when it comes to slides
41:25
and things, one thought per
41:28
slide, just say, simplify things. We, like, tend
41:31
to get cluttered. Uh, don't forget,
41:34
it takes many times for people to get
41:36
a message. I would say
41:39
also the young ones don't read
41:42
email, folks.
41:45
So figure out how to get the messages out there besides email.
41:48
The young ones may not see email for a long time. It
41:51
took us a long time to get on email at church. We're just really slow at
41:54
church. You know, it took us long enough to get on email.
41:57
Now everyone's texting or doing something
41:59
else. So pay attention to how your folks are getting
42:02
your messages.
42:04
>> Loren: Yeah. Okay. This has been a good conversation. I feel like
42:07
I'd ask you more about communications and
42:10
stuff, but, uh, I want to respect your
42:12
time. The book is again, Wired to Lead, Being the
42:15
leader the church didn't think you could be. Let's
42:18
take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions.
42:24
All right, we're back with Suzanne Nadell. Thank you so much for
42:28
the conversation. The question, these,
42:31
uh, closing questions I always ask folks, and it
42:34
feels a bit more somber today. As we talked about,
42:37
the Pope has just died. This question is meant to be
42:40
more kind of like, you know, what if
42:43
you had absolute control over one
42:46
sort of entity in a day. So you can. You're welcome to
42:48
take it from that side, or if you want to
42:51
reflect, share some reflections on the actual Pope.
42:54
I want to leave that to you, since we are in this current context.
42:58
>> Suzanne Nadell: Well, I will just say with current Pope in mind,
43:01
uh, it's going to be very interesting where
43:04
the Catholic Church goes next for their next Pope.
43:07
>> Loren: Yeah.
43:08
>> Suzanne Nadell: But I would just say he
43:11
did a lot of things of, uh, moving forward,
43:16
and it's been awesome to see
43:18
them moving forward and the conversations that
43:21
some circles hadn't had before. It really goes to a lot of what
43:24
we've been talking about, and he was a champion
43:27
of those things, and I think that's something that I hope people talk
43:30
about a lot, and I hope people keep in mind.
43:33
He really was a champion of moving thought
43:36
and conversations and inclusivity and
43:39
loving God and loving people, uh, forward.
43:42
And I think that's just something
43:45
really to be celebrated.
43:48
Uh, I thought he was a good messenger
43:52
for that in a time when we needed it.
43:54
>> Loren: Yeah. And I felt like he really kind of got, like, the. The
43:57
cultural context. I, uh, was just reading an
44:00
article this morning, and I talked about, like, he didn't do
44:03
a big show wherever he went, so to speak. Like, he
44:06
was much more personable and,
44:08
you know, less what they say.
44:11
Like, he didn't do, like, the huge entourage, so to speak.
44:14
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah.
44:15
>> Loren: I really think, like, he got that. He understood that,
44:18
uh, the importance of that, like, relatability, like we've been talking
44:21
about.
44:21
>> Suzanne Nadell: I think he really understood who he was talking to and who he needed
44:24
to reach.
44:25
>> Loren: Right.
44:26
>> Suzanne Nadell: And some people have used that in not
44:29
good ways. Yeah, he used that in a really good
44:32
way.
44:32
>> Loren: Oh, that's a good point. Um,
44:36
good point.
44:36
Let's do this. A theologian, a historical Christian figure you'd want
44:39
to meet then or bring back to life.
44:42
>> Suzanne Nadell: Priscilla. I am such a huge
44:45
Priscilla Aquila story person. I've
44:47
even thought about, um, giving away an idea,
44:50
like, writing, like, uh, historical fiction on
44:53
Priscilla. Like, I'm fascinated by
44:56
Priscilla and Aquila. Like, she's
44:58
mentioned before him, like, half the time or nearly
45:01
half the times in the Bible. What is it she was really
45:04
up to? What was really, you know, behind all of their money and
45:07
power? Like, I just. I. I, uh, want to meet
45:10
Priscilla. I want to hang with Priscilla. I think she's my
45:12
people.
45:14
>> Loren: I just read about. Can't remember the book. I just
45:17
read about making the point that
45:20
Priscilla being mentioned first in those contexts, like, is
45:23
a big deal. I'm trying to remember where I read that.
45:26
>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, it's. I've read it in a few places and they're
45:29
like, that is not to be lost. And the fact that they
45:32
intentionally mentioned her verse which showed that she was
45:35
looked at on equal footing as a teacher and head of
45:38
household. Uh, but Priscilla,
45:40
Lydia, Phoebe, any of those. Prafilla first
45:44
I've done a talk on. I view those three as like power women
45:47
in the New Testament that we didn't talk about much
45:49
growing up. And they've got some fascinating
45:52
stories.
45:53
>> Loren: Okay, this is a good question for you.
45:56
What do you think history will remember from our current time and place?
46:00
>> Suzanne Nadell: I think it's important for us to remember this as a blip.
46:03
>> Loren: Hmm.
46:06
>> Suzanne Nadell: It's all of this like if you look at history books and what
46:09
happens in time.
46:11
>> Loren: Mhm.
46:12
>> Suzanne Nadell: I'm not saying things right now are like all good or
46:14
whatever, but.
46:15
>> Loren: Mhm.
46:16
>> Suzanne Nadell: We've been in bad times before and this
46:19
is really like part of a larger thing.
46:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:22
>> Suzanne Nadell: Not just like a decade. It's not like they're like, you know, on,
46:25
you know, it's gonna be a full chapter on it. There's gonna be a full chapter
46:28
on World War II through now.
46:31
>> Loren: Mhm.
46:31
>> Suzanne Nadell: Like this is all a
46:35
little part of big history.
46:37
And I think we've got to remember, looking back, they're going to
46:40
look at now in the context of what has happened in
46:43
the 50 years before us and the 50 years after us.
46:48
>> Loren: It's helpful to have that perspective.
46:50
>> Suzanne Nadell: I think too, with that too. I think we have to look
46:53
at also what's come up and what's led to this point.
46:56
And I think in history what we look at, looking at what led
46:59
up to this point.
47:00
>> Loren: Sure.
47:01
>> Suzanne Nadell: As much as at this point and we want to
47:04
get and uh, talk about at this point right now
47:07
and not talk about what got us to this point.
47:10
And there are some things we've got to alter about what got us
47:12
to this point. And that was decades in the making.
47:15
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point.
47:17
Okay, this, this last question I feel like, feels appropriate because you spend
47:20
so much your, your books, you know. Dear church, Dear
47:23
church, dear church. What are your hopes for
47:26
the. Dear church, what are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
47:33
>> Suzanne Nadell: That we become
47:35
less
47:38
politically
47:41
divided.
47:43
>> Loren: Mhm.
47:45
>> Suzanne Nadell: It's an interesting time.
47:48
And my hope is that we become
47:53
kind of like. I look at us in like, you know, smaller
47:56
areas where the church is just needed and it's that
47:58
center of your community, it's your
48:01
neighborhood church, it's that small town Church.
48:04
It's, it's that center,
48:07
both spiritually, physically and everything
48:10
that ties us together. And I think
48:13
we've got to revert to some of that, uh, thinking.
48:18
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. Uh, it does
48:21
seem like, broadly speaking, like the whole
48:24
megachurch model is slipping
48:26
away or declining in some ways and even mega
48:29
churches are going to a satellite
48:32
campus type model to try to be more invested
48:35
in their local neighborhoods rather than just like
48:38
a 30 minute commuter,
48:41
transitory type church.
48:43
>> Suzanne Nadell: We need community, we need people.
48:46
All of these things that I've talked about, connecting with
48:49
people and community and stories. You
48:52
only get that from actually living in community with
48:55
people. Yeah, and I think that's a lesson for the
48:58
church too.
48:59
>> Loren: Well, share where people can connect with you. Get the
49:02
book, all that stuff.
49:04
>> Suzanne Nadell: So wired to lead. You can get it where most books are
49:07
sold. Amazon, Chalice Press, who is my,
49:09
uh, publisher, their website.
49:12
So please check it out there and then
49:15
you can follow me on Instagram as my main social media
49:18
source. At suzannedell, I'm there
49:21
nearly every day. I share these things called back deck
49:23
chats. Um, my blog,
49:25
suzannadel.com is where you can
49:28
check that out. I also have courses and then I'm also
49:31
involved in, as I kind of transition out of news later
49:34
this year, an organization called she Leads Church, which
49:37
is@she leads church.com and that is
49:40
about embracing female Christian leaders both in the
49:43
church space and in the marketplace space.
49:46
>> Loren: That's awesome. Cool. I didn't realize that was a thing you're working
49:49
on. I'm, uh, going to follow that and look forward to
49:51
hearing more and seeing more about that.
49:53
Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the conversation.
49:57
We always leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's peace
49:59
be with you.
50:08
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
50:11
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
50:14
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
50:17
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
50:20
our website@uh, future-christian.com
50:23
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
50:26
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
50:28
But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to
50:31
the podcast pod to leave a review. It really helps us get
50:34
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
50:37
peace.