Latest / Rooted & Real With Keenan / Pain-Purpose Brandt Johnson on Breaking Cycles, Healing Trauma & Becoming Man He Never Wanted to Be

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Pain-Purpose Brandt Johnson on Breaking Cycles, Healing Trauma & Becoming Man He Never Wanted to Be · Rooted & Real With Keenan

• Keenan: All right. Hey Brandit, thank you so much for coming on and just having a conversation. Really appreciate you taking time out of your day to be here. Brandt: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. It's an honor. Keenan: Thank you, man, for sure. So I ask everybody the same question and it's just what is your story? How did you become the man that you are today? And how did you get there? Brandt: Wow. how much time do we have? Keenan: Ha ha Brandt: I would say i it all started forty eight years ago. I was born into a a Christian home. My dad was a pastor. and he he's also not only a pastor, but principal of the private school run by the church that I grew up in. so I had I had a basically just inundated with the culture of Christianity. And I think the way I would distinguish that is just you know, it's kind of that mindset that when the doors are open, you gotta be there. It's just expected of you. You know, Hebrews ten twenty-five says that you can't forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as some of you are in the habit of doing, and that was just used kind of as a a weapon to force people to show up to church and make them feel guilty if they didn't. so unless Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Brandt: I was sick as a dog, I was in church. and with the private schooling too, you know, it was I was again just inundated with this culture of Christianity. I literally learned how to read by using the Bible, using scripture, scripture memorization was a part of my schooling, my education. My dad was the principal of the school. And so every area of my life was just filled with this Christian culture. And it was not a bad thing. so I I wanted to clarify that very specifically I that was it was actually very helpful for me because Keenan: Mm. Brandt: that gave me a lot of biblical knowledge, a lot of biblical understanding that helped me process things much later in life. But at the time it was all just up here. It was it was Basically, Christianity was an exchange of information. And so I knew all the right answers because I was taught all the right answers. And that that made me, you know, very knowledgeable about scripture and I knew about God. I knew about Jesus. I knew about the gospel, but it wasn't it wasn't a actual belief system. It was a belief system up here. It was something that I ascribed to. specifically a doctrinal statement on, you know, God as creator, Jesus as his son, the Virgin Mary, creation, all all these different things that were, you know, delineated in in a doctrinal statement, sort of, and like, yes, I I ascribe to all those things, and that makes me a Christian. Well, no, no, it doesn't, because my allegiance was still here. And I never turned that over to Christ. In fact, years later, when I decided to become a pastor myself, I entered into vocational ministry and discovered very quickly that I was asking people to do something that I had never done myself, and that is Keenan: Mm. Brandt: actually change who I am and who my loyalty where my loyalties lie and actually turn that, surrender that over to Christ and then become, you know. basically a a a servant within his kingdom rather than working toward building my own kingdom. And so that was something that was really eye opening. and that really led me down a journey to to discover, well, what else had I been wrong about? What else had just been indoctrinated into my my brain that that it made sense up here, but then when I looked to scripture, when I compare it to what I'm reading I was like, wait a second, some of this stuff doesn't add up. Some of this stuff doesn't really make sense and doesn't fit into what I understand that the gospel message actually is. And so through that kind of discovery, it got to a point where I looked out across the landscape of Christianity in the United States specifically, because that's what I was familiar with. And I I I actually Said to my wife at one point, I said, if this is what it means to be a Christian, I don't know if I want to be one. Keenan: Mm. Brandt: Because I had seen so much of what we did was performative or adhering to a particular tradition or a particular denominational teaching. and really wasn't even founded in scripture. all the way down to the The liturgy, the order of services, expecting Keenan: Right. Brandt: people to dress up when they come to church, expecting people to show up at a particular location on a particular day and call that church. Man, when I look in at the church in the New Testament, I don't see that. I see they got together whenever they got a chance to get together. It wasn't about a specific public worship meeting. they spent live their sl lives with each other. They were, they were always daily, it says in Acts. They were getting together. They were encouraging with them. They having meals together. They had they shared belongings in some cases, to the extent where no one among them had any needs, because if anybody had a need that someone said, hey, I got one of those. You can have it. I don't need it. It's an extra. You know? Keenan: Right. Yeah. Brandt: And so that really just kind of laid this foundation for me too. go through and I I can't can't think of a different term for it other than deconstruction. I I really did have to deconstruct a lot of those those really indoctrination into this culture of Christianity. but the difference between what what I see online when I look up deconstructionism or things like that is that I was actually seeking truth and when I found it, it reinforced my faith rather than caused me to abandon it, like you see so much in deconstructionism. So that kind of brought me to where I am now with I've been working on a podcast as of late I suppose I probably have about ten episodes up and it's really just trying to kind of focus on the the f this idea that there's more to church. There's more to to just showing up at a building at a specific time. There's more than just adhering to a particular, you know, list of denomination denominational affiliations or doctrinal statements that happen to be on a particular website that is connected with your church, you know. It's so much more than that. It's so much more than just singing songs when you're supposed to sing songs. It's so much more than putting money in a plate or in a box or online or however you want to give to a particular organization. And it goes way beyond just this idea of being a cultural affiliation. But literally is when Jesus Jesus says in Revelation, it says he came to make all things brand new. And that's that's us too. And we we should be being transformed on a daily basis. not just in the way we think, yes, we need to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, but by by changing the way we think about things, yes. But also in the way w we interact with people. Jesus says, they're gonna know you're my disciples and the by the way that you show love for one another. Keenan: Right. Brandt: You know, he says you're gonna be able to look at and say and see, just like you can look at a tree. it's an apple tree. How can you tell it's an apple? Well, 'cause there's apples on it. That person is a follower of Jesus. Well, how can you tell? 'Cause look at his life. Look at the way he's he's treating people, look at the way he treats people at work, look at the way he interacts with others. You know, it should be obvious to people, but you know, especially in in the United States, you can s you can take two people. One calls himself a Christ a Christian, one doesn't have anything to do with church or God or anything, and you look at the markers in their life, you can hardly tell a difference between the two of Except that one might vote a particular way and the other might vote a different way. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Brandt: you know, it and it and it comes down to this it we have developed a reputation of being known for what we stand against rather than what we stand for. And I think that's a that's a problem. Keenan: Yeah. That's a huge distinction that you just made. Standing what we stand against versus what we stand for. it's it's a message that I think a lot of people would miss. but it's but as you say it, it is so blatantly obvious. during your your process of deconstruction or reformation, I don't know. We'll use deconstruction. during that process, was there any sort of doubts within like your faith and just in Jesus Christ during that process? And how did you handle those? Brandt: absolutely. Ye y yes, very much so. I mean, like said, I I was questioning whether or not I even wanted to call myself a Christian. Keenan: Right. Brandt: Because if that's realistically I mean, w when I look at when I look at what I went through, and and I spared a lot of details just because some of it would be helpful, some of it would just me be you know, be me venting, which I don't want to do that. I don't I don't have an issue. with the church I grew up in, to the extent that I I can look back and I s I can see that they legitimately believed that that's what they were supposed to be doing. You know, I think of Paul when he was literally killing Christians, if not literally himself participating in, certainly seeking them out, giving approval of killing them, you know, and and processing that o oppression against the church during his time. and then he says, I did that with a clear conscience before God. I thought that that's what God wanted me to do. And so I I can't blame them necessarily. I can't hold that against them like I used to. and say, Well, look at how terrible of a situation I was in, you know. But I can look at some of the things that I experienced at the hands of the leadership of the church. For instance, when I was thirteen years old, I got in trouble with the law. And the response by the church was, you embarrassed us. So now we need to embarrass you so there can be some kind of recompense. We need to be able to prove that you've paid for your sins. And so I had to get up in front of the entire congregation, tell them what I did, why I did it, and go through all that stuff. And basically turned into this public shaming opportunity for the church. And I can only I look back now and I can only chalk that up to spiritual abuse. that I can't think of another name for it or another way to describe it other than they were trying to make me pay for my own sins. But I look at the gospel message, yes, there's gonna be consequences for what we do. You know, Keenan: Sure, yeah. Brandt: i i if I'm a if I murder someone, I likely will go to jail for the rest of my life. there there's consequences for our actions. Absolutely. But then to put someone through additional shaming or you know, Keenan: Yeah. Brandt: demand of some sort of recompense to show that they're now worthy of being accepted by this group, I don't see that in the gospel anywhere. I don't, I don't, I can't make that connection to where, where This is a an acceptable and good way to handle this kind of a situation. Keenan: Right. So I mean when you when that happened to you, first off, I've actually maybe this is my own naiveness, but I've never heard of a church doing that. And that and for probably good reason. like yeah. Brandt: I I do know that different denominations handle things differently, obviously. And and you and you're gonna see depending on on on how you grew up, but there's a a a lot of that type of spiritual abuse, especially now, is starting to come out. if you Keenan: Hmm, yeah. Brandt: follow I think her name is Julie Royce, the Roy's report, she puts out some really interesting stuff of of research and documented situations that That people have gone through at the hands of church leadership. I think we're starting to see a lot more of that come out now. I mean, Keenan: For sure. Brandt: especially from like my generation, where, you know, during youth group, we were literally dangled over the flames of hell week Keenan: Right. Brandt: after week after week, just to try to scare us into, you know, ascribing to this particular denomination or this particular doctrinal statement or, you know, basically. ascribing to their brand of Christianity. And that was more important. it was it was more about the appearance of things. It was more about how how we made the church look. and and when I compared that to, you know, w first of all, when I when I saw that happening in the church that I grew up in, when I s when I went through some of my experiences, some of the abuses that I went that that happened to me as a result of being in pastoral ministry, I saw what happened behind closed doors and I s heard the discussions that that went on. And you you asked about if that caused me to to question. And it absolutely did. And and it made me wonder if if if we really are taking this stuff seriously, then how is this actually happening in a church? How are we getting so petty over, you know, the color of the Keenan: Mm-hmm. Brandt: the walls or whether or not we should replace the carpet. And those are becoming reasons that that literally have divided churches, split the church. And one group Keenan: For sure. Brandt: says, well fine, no, we're gonna go build our own church and have our own blue carpet then. You know, and and that's what it that's what became important to us. What what our buildings look like, you know, what kind of what what translation of the Bible do we leave in the back of the benches? You know? Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yep. Brandt: And and it's like if if if we focused on those things And b turn those things into the most important aspects of our ministry, then we've completely lost focus of the purpose behind the gospel message. Keenan: Yeah. so many people, especially nowadays, go through something like that, whether it's like a pastor, I mean, especially in Florida, like there are pastors having affairs, and then they completely leave the church and just or just give up. And like I'm curious to know you went through all that and yet like here you are talking about Jesus. Like, I mean, I guess guess what's kind of what made you get back and in fact I think like what made you get back into it and not totally give up on being a Christian and believing in Jesus? What brought you back? Brandt: Yeah. a lot of that had to do with my support system of of who was around me at that time. And and again, it kind of goes back to my experiences as a as a youth when I went through those things. I didn't have a support system. When I was, you know, brought before the whole church, everyone was there to just shame me. And I didn't have someone pull me aside and say, Man, they that should have happened. I'm really sorry. Yes, this was a bad situation. You shouldn't have done what you've what you did. And I think you know that. But rather than shaming you for it, this is what I want to do to help encourage you to do things differently in the future, And when I was talking with my wife, and I told you, I said to her, man, if this is what it means, this is what it means to be a Christian, then I don't know if I want to be one. Luckily, at that point, she was in a much better place than I was. Keenan: Mm. Brandt: And she, as well as a couple other people in in the church, were there to say, no, this is not what it means Keenan: Mm. Brandt: to be a Christian. This is not what it means to follow Jesus. There's there's so much more to it than that. And I had people around me who encouraged me, and even even encouraged me to question the things that I had been taught. even people from within the denomination I grew up in were were there to say, Hey, I had to look into some of this stuff too, and realize that we were pushing an agenda rather than pushing the gospel message. And so I think that support system is really what what caused me to say, okay, well, if there is truth here, I want to find out what it is. And so Like I said, I was actually looking for truth. I wasn't looking to escape. Keenan: Mm. Brandt: and I think that's one of the big things that you see in so much deconstructionism today is they're they're looking for a reason to get out. You know, you'll hear people, you know, who who stay in the church will look and say, Well, the reason they left is because they wanted to live their life of sin. Maybe, but I think Even in the situations of people leaving, they were looking for support. They were looking for something real, something tangible. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brandt: And it's just not very common in churches in the US anymore for them to have that kind of support. And that lack of support is really what led me to saying, Well, I need to start talking about this. I need to start because there's so many more people out there who are kind of where I was at and looking for something. something that they could actually hold on to and something that they could a actually put their faith and their belief into rather than just this organization or this you know, this group of people because they've been failed by that group of of people. They've been failed Keenan: Mm-hmm. Brandt: by that organization. And and I see that, you know, like like you mentioned, pastors who have an affair or whatever, you know, man, wouldn't that be a great opportunity for j us to come around that person And just pour into them and help them and encourage them and say, yes, no, we don't want you to be our pastor anymore. But what can we do to help you and to to to develop a better lifestyle? Because, you know, this these are not good choices. You shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be running around. You shouldn't be cheating on your wife. You shouldn't those are things that that could have been prevented if they had a good support system around them. Or even a accountability around them. we in this, especially in the United States, we love autonomy, especially across denominationalized. You know, Keenan: Right. For sure. Brandt: your denomination can't tell my denomination what to do, you know. Yeah. And and the the regional director of our denomination can beat up the regional director of your denomination, you know, whatever. And it kind of comes becomes these battle lines that we draw and and we love that autonomy. And then we even bring that autonomy down to an individual level where I am an autonomous Christian and I don't need this support group anymore. And so then when I'm left alone to deal with whatever situation I find myself in, that's exactly where I am. I'm alone and I don't have that support structure around me. And so we we celebrate that autonomy to the point of lack of accountability. And that that's an issue. Keenan: Right. Brandt: because without accountability, people are gonna have affairs, they're gonna embezzle money, they're gonna take advantage of the system, they're going to, do all these things that maybe would pr produce an abusive or toxic situation. And when that happens, the people see it happening and they're like, I don't want to have anything to do with this. And they'd leave. Sometimes they run away. And I don't blame Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. How so you you hit on a lot of good points about community? some some people listening to this actually kind of hear the autonomy piece and they're like, Yeah, I don't need anybody. Like, I got this figured out or I'm figuring it out. Like, what do you think? How important is it for someone to have community? And if someone thinks these things, what do they need to hear? Brandt: Well, we can read in the Bible it says for this reason a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife. In that culture, you see how important family was. Those fa familial connections were a very foundational aspect of the culture, even all the way back in the in the old testament times. in the children of Israel and stuff. And literally that that husband would leave his parents, build an addition or a a lean to off of his in-laws house and live there with his family and and become as part of this larger family or other family in in this case. and and that familial relationship was really translated through even the Old Testament into the New Testament, into the New Covenant, as a as a a model, I guess you would call it, for the church. system. I mean, Paul refers to us as a body, you know, all many parts that are functioning together as one. I think that's a really good illustration for people to to recognize and say, hey, I need the rest of the body. In fact, Paul goes so far as to say when one part of that body is not functioning the way it's supposed to, it affects the entire rest of the body. You know, you look at the the U United States churches, and there's a handful of functioning members. And rest of us are just passive audience members. We just sit there and listen. Yeah, we'll sing. We'll raise our hands. Well, you know, it depending on which which group you affiliate with, you might raise your hands, you might not. but we'll we'll participate to an extent, but by and large we just sit and absorb and listen and we're we're taught. Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Brandt: You know, again, it it goes back to that exchange of information. Let me, as the leader, impart all of my wisdom and knowledge unto you. the passive listener. And then once you receive all that knowledge, it almost turns it into like a a a neo-Gnosticism. It and with that mentality, yes, you can live on your own. You don't need the rest of the group as long as you have the information, as long as you have you know ascribe to the right, to the right list of do's and don'ts. You know, it it it turns the gospel message into mental ascent. Rather than a life transforming organization. And when we recognize that that transformation that's possible, we see that it happens in community. You know, church members were never referred to in the New Testament. whenever, in fact, well, I won't go down this rabbit hole, but the word church actually was not in the original English translation because it's a made-up word. It's literally a made-up word. That's beside the point. But when you hear about the church, the ecclesia in the New Testament, it is referring to a group of people, is never ever once referring to an individual. Not once. Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Brandt: It is always referring to a group of people. And, you know, in in the original Apostles' Creed, it talks about I believe in the Catholic Church. That's not Catholic as in the Catholic, you know, the Roman Catholic Church. That's Catholic in the words, the term where it literally means universal church, the the greater church as a whole, that all of those functioning members of God's body, this this this conglomerate network of people across the globe, is what is known as the church. You know, that's when Jesus said to Peter, On this rock I will build my church. my ecclesia, that that group of people that the gates of hell will not prevail against, they will not stand against this church, this body of people, you know, and and that's what he's referring to. And anytime you read the word church in the New Testament, that's what it's talking about. We have a tendency nowadays to read back into scripture. And so when we read the word church, we think Sunday morning at this place at this location at this time, we think, three songs, announcements, prayer, communion, if you take communion, as a whole as a whole body. You know, and that's what we think of when we hear the word church. And that's what we we make that connection to in our in our mind. And it's just not there. And it's a it's a disservice to that whole group together. And so that individual you're talking about. I think they need to hear that. They need to hear that when when Paul or well, it was the writer of Hebrews, likely was Paul, but there's an argument to it may not have been. Anyway, he when he says that Hebrews 1025, don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together, he's really getting at w the greater message, the greater context of that that book that he wrote to the Hebrews, saying, You guys need each other. You need to to be in in each other's lives, you need to be in coordination and cooperation with each other for support, for encouragement, to challenge one another, even to rebuke one another. Hey, you know, y you you shouldn't be doing this. You shouldn't be living this way. You ch those are not good choices to make. And so that that's what I would say, you know, that individual needs to hear that that yes. There is a group of people out there. And just because somebody shows up at a particular place on a particular day of the week doesn't mean they're a member of that church. Doesn't mean they're a part of that body. You can, you know, stand in a garage all day long. You're not going to become a Ford Mustang. You know? Keenan: Right. Right. Yeah. Brandt: and so it's that that that actual life transformation that that is gonna be, you know, people are gonna s be able to see it and recognize it. I think that that recognizing that happens in community, not just community with each other, but community with us us and God and the Holy Spirit at work in our lives. That's when we can start seeing that change actually happen. Keenan: Sure, for sure. So it's really important to lean as we're, getting into community, it's important to really lean on those people that God put around you. and so And especially in the United States, we're so isolated now with like social media and the internet and like people can just stay home all the time now. It's like what do we do about all this stuff that's supposed to enhance our lives, but it seems to be hindering us? Brandt: Yeah. And that's I think gonna be that's gonna be something that that we're really gonna start seeing more about in in the in the church realm. and I've said for goodness, probably a couple of decades that the face of the church is gonna have to change in the United States. because it's been on a a steady decline for seventy-five years. massive decline and it's getting steeper Keenan: Okay. Brandt: over the last decade that you know where it's been going like this direction now it's going like this direction in a very, very very steep decline. They're projecting I I think a hundred thirty thousand churches closing their doors by by twenty thirty. It Keenan: Mm. Brandt: it's just this massive amount of of exodus from the North American churches. Now granted that could be a church in the middle of nowhere, Iowa, that's got four people that show up and they've shown up for the past forty years and they call it a church. That may stop happening 'cause you know, everybody died or there's only one person left and they go down the road to you know, the second Baptist church instead instead of the first Keenan: Right. Yeah. Brandt: Baptist church. And and so that church gained a member, but the church overall closed one of its churches. and the crazy thing is we we can kind of pretend that there is growth happening in the church because we see some churches are getting bigger. Well, I think the last Barner research found that about ninety percent of church growth is transfer growth. People leaving one church and going to another. Doesn't mean the whole church as a whole is getting bigger. it's actually decreasing in size, because people are leaving flat out and people are just leaving one church and going to another church. Keenan: Yeah. Brandt: and we're not seeing a lot of of new Christians, so to speak, in relation to in relation to church growth. And that's that's an unfortunate thing. It's it's kinda sad. But I think, you know, addressing that individualistic thing, because it it is so easy for people Well, I just watch, a sermon online and well, Keenan: Right. Brandt: where in the Bible does it talk about a sermon being the focal point of Christian who made the sermon the focal point of Christianity? Martin Luther. He loved sermonizing. And he was the one who who th realistically, one of the biggest transitions with Luther was he changed the focus of the worships the public worship service from the sacrament to the sermon. He Keenan: Hm. Brandt: made it S he made the sacrament was still a big part of it, but his focus was the sermon and sermonizing. and the interesting thing about that is it's a that's a brand new development in in Christianity, you know, w looking at the two thousand year history, that's a relatively new aspect of Christianity, is that sermon central focus, as the main what method of teaching, I guess. And you go back to Jesus, he he took the rabbinical methods. He said, Come follow me. Come spend the day with me. You know, how many Christians do you know? If somebody says, What does it mean to follow Jesus? And their response is, Come spend the day with me, I'll show you. That's what that's what they're talking about in Ephesians when he says, you've been given all these things to equip the saints, to equip them so that they can say to that neighbor, You want to know what it means to follow Jesus? I'll show you. Come come come spend the day with me. That's what we should be seeing. That's the kind of replicable discipleship that we should be seeing in the church. And we're just not. We're not seeing it. Keenan: Right. Yeah. So talk to me about a little bit of your ministry experience. and what was that like going in and out of that? Brandt: and I'm telling myself a little bit. Well, and if you go on to my podcast, More to Church podcast, one of my episodes is actually titled I Became What I Hated. Keenan: Hmm, okay. Brandt: and and I did. I got into ministry thinking I'm gonna change things. I'm gonna get people to open their eyes and see the truth. And I basically started doing exactly what I was standing against. By bas basically trying to make people follow my agenda. Keenan: Hmm. Wow. Brandt: I was I was in ministry for two years before one of the elders actually came up to me and said, It feels like you're angry at the church you grew up in and you're taking it out on us. Keenan: my gosh. Whoa. Whew. Brandt: That just hit me right between the eyes. And I'm like, wow. And it had to have been a God thing that He had prepared my heart to hear that. And I'm like, wow, you're you're exactly right. That's exactly what's happening. And so at that point, I really started diving into scripture and and and looking at what it actually means to follow Jesus. Keenan: Hm. Brandt: Because I had this idealized Concept that was again, it was all up here. It was all knowledge-based. There was no relationship. It wasn't about people and and helping them and encouraging them and developing them. It was about me with my agenda trying to get people to see it my way. And I I've since realized that that's a you know, it's a ridiculous agenda for one thing. And it's very egotistical. And I and I was. I was I I again I had a lot of biblical knowledge. I had all the right answers, remember? Cause I knew scripture. I had to. I was forced to memorize it over and over and over again. And so that that put me into a a point, you know, 'cause the Bible even says knowledge, what does it do? My knowledge puffs up. Knowledge makes you proud. That's Keenan: Yep. Yeah. Brandt: exactly what it did to me. I had all this biblical knowledge that I I was just using. Keenan: Mm. Brandt: To show everybody else how smart I was and how how they need to listen to me because I've got it figured out and they don't. And that was a really bad, very, very, very bad start to my ministry. but then I started recognizing how, you know, when I look out at people, these are individuals who were made in the image of God, regardless of what they're struggling with. I don't even know what ninety-nine point nine percent of are actually struggling with. But that doesn't take away any value that they have before God. You know, one of my favor I was in youth ministry for a little while and one of my favorite illustrations was I'd hold up a twenty dollar bill and say, How many of you want this twenty dollar bill? And of course they're I want it. And so then I'd wrinkle it all up and crumple it into a ball. How about now? Well, yeah, I still want it. I'd throw it on the ground and stomp on it and pretend to blow my nose into it and all these things, you know. What if I throw it in the gutter and leave it there overnight, dump booze all over it, whatever? People still wanted the twenty dollars. And of course, then you make the I made the example. Well, that's because it's worth twenty dollars, regardless of what happens to it. Regardless of what is done to that twenty dollar bill, even if you ripped it in half. You could still tape it back together and it's still worth 20 bucks. And I just emphasizing that that's the way humans are in front of God. Regardless of what happens to us, we still have value before God. He is still our maker. He is still our creator. He is still the sovereign one who sits on the throne and he still longs for us to be in his family. And we always will have that value. There's nothing that we can do that's gonna cause him to love us less than he loves us right now, in this moment. And there's nothing that we can do that's gonna make him love us more than he does right now in this moment. Regardless of how good we are or how bad we are, we will always have the same value before God. And Keenan: Mm-hmm. Brandt: that value was that he He loved us so much that he sent his son to die for us, even while we were still standing in opposition to him as sinners. Keenan: Yes. Brandt: And I think recognizing that really helped change my mind. It was a paradigm shift that I always looked at, the focus of church and ministry was to get people in the door or to, you know, get more people to show up or to get more people baptized or to get more people on the member roster. all those things were such a focal point that that it it literally took a paradigm shift to realize that even if this person never darkens the door of a church, I need to love them and honor them and respect them Keenan: Absolutely. Brandt: because they are a person who is created in the image of God. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. yeah, I think that that's a powerful way to look at it is Jesus calls us to love God and love others. And those are the top commandments. what would you say to someone like you know, hearing this for the first time, they haven't been in church in a while. they got burned at their last church and they're kind of like, Man, those words are resonating with me. Like, what do you think they need to hear to kind of like get back get back get back to church, get back to Jesus? Like what do they need to hear? Brandt: Yeah, several things. the first and foremost would be doubt isn't a sin. unbelief, if you hear and you reject, yeah, that's that's not that's not good. But even at that point, you can still renew your mind, you can still change the way you look at it and come back like the prodigal son did. He made his decision, he made his choice, he made his his direction in life. And when he f finally hit rock bottom, he's like, wait a second. Keenan: Yeah. Brandt: And he looked around. I love that, but he looked around at his situation. He's like, Man, the servants in my father's house have it better than I do. I need to go back. I Keenan: Yeah. Brandt: need to go back. And it's recognizing that position Keenan: Yeah. Brandt: before his father, before his, you know, the Ruler of his life, and recognizing, yeah, that there was value in that. And you look at King David, first of all, what a wicked man, right? He did some horrible, terrible, rotten, wicked things. But yet Hebrews calls him a man after God's own heart. How, Keenan: Mm. Brandt: how do those things, where's the balance in that? And I think it has Has to fall into that idea of he knew his place before his maker. He knew his place before his sovereign God. What did he say? My sin is ever before me. I'm constantly thinking about how horrible of a person I am. Why? Because he looked at himself in relation to his sovereign God. And he talked to him constantly. You read through, you can't read through the Psalms without recognizing that relationship that he actually had with his maker. he looks at the stars and says, What is man that you're even mindful of us? Well, how can you even think of us as human beings? Look at everything else that you've created. Why am I important? and just recognizing his pl place before God. And that's what led him to say, it's a broken and contrite heart that the Lord wants. He wants us to recognize that I cannot do this on my own and I need you. I need Keenan: Yeah. Brandt: you in my life. And and that's something that I think that individual needs to hear is is. God still wants you. And it Keenan: Yes, absolutely. Brandt: doesn't have to be on the terms of a particular organization. He wants you on his terms. He wants you on the terms of the gospel message, which I think has Keenan: Mm. Brandt: unfortunately been converted into something else in the United States churches and the churches in North America. I think we've turned the gospel message into something it was never intended to be. And the other thing I think that individual needs to hear, and this may is it's right up there in importance, I think recognizing that just because a place calls itself a church doesn't make it one. Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. For sure. Brandt: And and again I and this harkens back to when I talked about what the church actually is in the New Testament as compared to what we l we think of. And I want to say this gently. You can be a part of the church without showing up at a particular nonprofit organization's public meeting. You Keenan: Right. Sure. Brandt: don't have to attend a certain church to be part of God's body. Night now, the here's the caveat to that. We need to be careful in that situation because again, we need community. I think there's value in a local congregation. I think there's Keenan: Sure. Mm-hmm. Brandt: value in having a group of people that you can be a part of and meet with. Call it a home church, call it whatever you want to call it. You still need people around you. You still need a group of support and people that you can support as well. because it goes both ways. You know, I I heard a long time ago, And I think this was even in a secular setting, but it it was, it goes, it says, a leader is a learner. When you stop learning, you stop leading. And I think the same thing applies to to our lives as we follow Christ. When I stop showing other people how to do it, I'm gonna stop doing it myself. Or only is the reverse of that. When I stop doing it myself, I'm gonna stop telling other people how to do it. And I think that's just a natural tendency because when when we are in that community, we're we're constantly evaluating ourselves as well. And we're challenging other people and we're encouraging other people. And it just turns into this kind of cycle that that Paul talks about in in the way that we need to build one another up and encourage one another. I mean, those those one another passages, there was there fifty nine of them in the New Testament. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Brandt: And it's just constantly talking about what we need to be doing one to another. it's that mutual, mutual submission, that mutual edification that he's talking about. in in most, the vast majority, I would say, of church settings in the United States right now don't allow for that. They don't make space for that because we have to have time for worship. We have to have time for fellowship. We have to have time for a sermon. We have to have time for giving. We have to have time for prayer. How can we shove all that stuff into what? Forty-five minutes to 90 minutes, depending again on your traditions. the question ought to be, and I think Francis Chan brought this up. He said the question is why we're only given 90 minutes. You know? Keenan: Right. Brandt: And it's that it I think it's good to hear that you don't have to be pigeonholed into what the United States North American Christ cultural Christianity refers to as a follower of Christ. I think there's value in recognizing some, pointers, Do you do you believe in God? Do you believe that He is the maker, the creator of heaven and earth? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is his son? You know, do believe in his word? Do you do you f feel there's some value in the Bible that he's given to us? I think there's definitely some common denominators that are fairly much across the board, regardless of what denominational affiliation you subscribe to. And so I think there are there are obvious things that that are unquestionable. You know, I'm not going to believe in Jesus as my savior if I don't think he actually died on the cross and rose again. You know, this is probably Keenan: Right, right. For sure. Brandt: not going to probably not gonna do that. But again, that's not just a mental ascent. That's not just something that I ascribe to because somebody wrote it down sometime and said this was a valuable lesson. No, because I I look at that sacrifice and recognize that that actually restored me into a right relationship with my maker. And it's Keenan: Yeah, yeah. Brandt: that it's that that restoration that makes me whole again. And that's that restoration that actually allows me to have righteousness. I don't have righteousness on my own. I I can't, you know, there's a reason why I need an advocate Keenan: Mm-hmm. Brandt: to stand before the Father on my behalf. Because I could come up with all kinds of excuses. Why did you do this and this and this? But it's when Jesus is standing over my shoulder saying, Hey, yeah, I've heard it all. I know all about this guy. Don't worry, I've got this guy covered. That's what it means for him to be our advocate. He's advocating Keenan: Absolutely. Brandt: on our behalf. And recognizing that in the gospel message, that that's actually what's happening. That's so much different when you realize that and understand that and feel that. than just saying, yes, I believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Anybody can say that. But if they don't know it and don't feel it and they don't understand it, then it means it means nothing. Keenan: Right. Yeah. So where does like we talk a lot about mental health in this on this podcast, where would you say that fits in to Christianity? 'Cause there's such a d there's such a divide Brandt: Yeah. Keenan: there sometimes. Brandt: Yeah, there is. And I'm really glad she brought that up because I am undiagnosed odd. my daughter is diagnosed with on the autism spectrum and she's like, Dad, you do this and this and this and it She's like, You're neurodivergent. Like, okay, I don't know. Know what that means. This is the way I've always been. So do textures freak me out? Yes, they do. But don't they freak everybody out? Apparently not. I I didn't know that. There's a lot of stuff that I just never realized. You know, I come across something the other day. someone someone said on a TikTok or something, I don't even remember. Instagram, they they said you see the bumper sticker that says honk if you like pizza. I thought that meant. If you like pizza, you should honk your horn. Because that's what it says. Okay, honk honk. I like pizza, honk, honk. And then it never occurred to me. They're like, well, actually, what they mean is if you're honking, then it's actually because you like pizza, not because I did anything wrong. And like, there's kind of a joke in there. I never, never even occurred to me. I was like, okay, whatever. Now, there's a lot of different obviously different levels of of mental health, but when I went through a lot of what I went through at the hands of church leaders, at the hands of people who were supposed to be caring for me, loving me, challenging me, developing, equipping me, right? But no, instead I I got mistreatment, I got abuse, I got accusation, I got these terrible things. And that does a huge number on Someone's psyche. especially if that brain functions a little differently than everybody else's. Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brandt: and it's not that it's a deficiency, it's not that it's a a handicap, you know. Just like I said before, it doesn't matter what has happened to you as a person, you're still valued the same as everybody else. And that has to apply to to mental conditions as well, regardless of what that mental condition is. And I think there's been such a lack of discussion on and mental health in in Christendom, and I would say just across Keenan: For sure, for sure. Brandt: the board. and actually this is kind of a tangent, I apologize. Even like when I was when I was growing up, if someone was taking medication for depression, It was because they didn't have enough faith. I'm like, Keenan: Yep. yeah. Brandt: excuse me? Really? Have you Keenan: Right. Brandt: ever experienced depression? Having been in the deepest Keenan: Okay. Brandt: throes of depression myself and had no help, no encouragement, nothing. And having to work through some of those deepest, darkest hours, you know, and I could I'm picturing Elijah sitting under the tree and saying, God, I just want to die. Just let me die. I Keenan: Mm. Brandt: felt that way. I've I I understand when when David was crying out to a crazy part of the Psalms, over a third of them are Psalms of Lament, Psalms of Mourning, Psalms of I am in a terrible, evil, wicked, rotten situation. And some of those are even blaming God for it. Saying, you did this to me. You turned all my enemies against me. You caused my friends to be my enemies. You I I think one of them talks about, he says, You caused me to chew on gravel. I mean, what a horrible thing. You cast me into this deepest, darkest place. But the same guy wrote, Yea, though I walk to the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear any evil, for you're with me. Your rod and your staff that give me comfort. You lie me down beside still waters. You restore my soul. And again, it has to be because regardless of his mental state, I think he suffered some obvious depression. I think he suffered some obvious mental health Keenan: Yeah. For sure. Brandt: issues. I think he really did struggle with being normal, so to speak. But yet he recognized his position before an almighty God. Keenan: Mm. Brandt: And that has value because he understood his value, regardless of what he did, regardless of what happened to him, regardless of any of those things, he recognized God's value that God placed on his life. It didn't matter what other people thought. And that's so difficult nowadays when everything that other people think. gets posted online, gets shared on social media, people talk about you behind their back, or behind your back. It and and all that stuff, it still affects me as a person when I hear those things. But just like can't remember if it was Peter or Paul talks about ge Jesus is is given to us as an example. I think it was Peter that we should follow in his steps, right? And he says When he was when he was attacked, he didn't retaliate, when he was, you know, when bad things were said about him, he didn't try to get revenge, but instead, and I think this is a really important part, instead he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. And that's huge because recognizing I'm not gonna stand before you on judgment day. So Keenan, it doesn't matter what you think about me, it doesn't. That's that's hard to get past here. But once you can and start recognizing, I'm not gonna stand before you on judgment day. I'm not gonna stand before my peers. I'm not gonna have a jury of my peers. No. I'm gonna have Jesus standing beside me saying, I've got this guy covered. That's so huge when it comes to mental health, too. Just recognizing I don't have to do this on my own. Because it of my own capacity, I can't. I can't do it. In fact, I think people with mental health struggles can actually recognize this better than other people, than normal people, because we already recognize there's something that's compromised, there's something that's not right about the situation, and I can't fix it. Keenan: Yeah. Right. Brandt: And that just puts us in a better place. To be able to turn it over to God, to lay it at at Jesus' feet, to to say, Hey, I can't do this on my own. If I try to do this on my own, I'm gonna be struggling for the rest of my life. And we probably will anyway, just I mean, if we're being honest. But at least we're doing it in a way that's that's healthy, in a way that that brings community around us to help and support us in that situation as well. I think that's important Keenan: Sure. So Brandt: to remember. Keenan: yeah, absolutely. The community having help, getting help, knowing when to get help. and we can wrap up with with this one. any good like books, podcasts, blogs you recommend people can look up to do more research on what we've talked about today or learn more about you. Brandt: I really like I mentioned Francis Chan. He's got some great books. Until Unity is one of the books that I really like of his. and there's another one, Letters to the Church. I think that really challenges that concept of what it means to be the church, to to w actually work together as a body, whether that's done in a nonprofit setting or done, you know, in a house or in a living room or a coffee shop. Or here on a podcast, this is church. We're having Keenan: Yeah. For sure. Brandt: church right now, And just helping I think that some of his books, some of his resources are are good. the whole We Are Church organization, they have a lot of stuff that they put out as well. and I I haven't I haven't listened in a little while. but Frank Viola has a podcast. The I think it's called the Insurgents Podcast. Where he talks a lot about kind of that that church as a community thing. And and and again, pretty much any book by Frank Viola is gonna be a great resource. and if if you start Keenan: Mm. Brandt: with pagan Christianity, don't stop with pagan Christianity. It will leave you jaded, it will leave you disillusioned, and it'll leave you questioning. Keep going through the rest of his books, keep going through From Eternity to Here. ReCurch, I think was one of them. Insurgents, there's so many more books that are gonna take that initial concept that he presents in pagan Christianity. Cause in pagan Christianity, he really just kind of tears down traditional walls. And if you just stop with tearing things down, you're not gonna end in a good place. You need to then build it back up and it's that reconstruction that has to take place that's gonna encourage you and help you move forward. so yeah, those are two two resources I think are very valuable. Keenan: Okay, for sure. And then you have a podcast you mentioned earlier. Yeah. Brandt: Yeah, yeah. more to church. you can find it on YouTube. I also do have the audio only if you prefer to listen to just audio. And that's available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, pretty much anywhere you can find audio podcasts. I have that on there as well. and yeah, I I wrote a book if for the for the for better or worse. It's called Broken Before God. when when faith and calamity collide. Excuse me. I was in a motorcycle accident back in 2023 and had to kind of go through some tough questions when it comes to, you know, why did this happen to me? You know, and so I address a lot of that inner struggle that I went through in that book. you can find that on Amazon. It's hardback, paperback, an ebook if you like ebooks. You can also get it on Audible. In fact, if if any of your listeners are saying, man, I I really want to hear that, I have a few free audible copies I'd be happy to to share with your audience. and they can send me an email at somethingmorepod at gmail.com and I'll hook them up. Keenan: Okay. Awesome. I'll put all your Brandt: Yeah. Keenan: your info in the description so people can find you. Brandt: Perfect. Keenan: thank you so much for coming on and such a good conversation and thank you for everything today. Really appreciate it. Brandt: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it, Keenan.