Latest / Reformed Thinking / On Gender Roles | Laurie Norris

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On Gender Roles | Laurie Norris · Reformed Thinking

0:00
Welcome to reformed thinking. So I want you to picture a
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Symphony Orchestra warming up. Oh yeah, that is quite the
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sound. Right.
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If you walk into the hall like 20 minutes before the concert,
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what you hear is just unfiltered the chaotic noise.
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Just total chaos. Yeah, the string section is
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rapidly tuning. You've got the brass section
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clearing out their trumpets with these loud random blasts, and
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you know the percussionists are just tapping away on the Tiffany
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drums. And The thing is, every single
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musician in that room possesses incredible talent.
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Spot on. Most of them are entirely
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capable of playing a brilliant solo, but in that specific
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moment, they're just making noise.
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I mean, there's no harmony, there's no structure.
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Right, it's just individual effort.
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Yes. But then the conductor steps up
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to the podium. They tap their baton.
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The entire room falls silent. The conductor raises their
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hands, and suddenly all of that individual chaotic talent turns
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into a single cohesive masterpiece.
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It's all about the arrangement. Precisely.
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Every musician in that orchestra is equally vital to the sound
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being created. I mean, you need the fleets just
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as much as the cellos, yet they all operate under a specific
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structure, one that's designed to keep the music faithful to
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the composer's original score. That is a really helpful way to
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frame what we are looking at today.
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I think so too, because today we are unpacking A theological
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framework that views the local church in a very similar way.
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We're doing a deep dive into the reasoning behind gender roles in
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church governance. And we are relying on some
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highly specific source material for this.
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We are We are looking at a textbook titled Standing Firm,
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The Doctrinal Commitments of Moody Bible Institute.
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Specifically, we're going to examine the chapter on gender
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roles written by Lori Norris. Yeah, and we'll be pulling in
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some context from Michael Mcduffie's section on human
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sexuality from that same book. Right.
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So your mission today as the listener is to understand how a
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major theological institution balances 2 things that well,
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modern society assumes are totally contradictory.
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Which is really the core tension here.
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It is because on one hand they vigorously defend the equal
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dignity, the worth and the spiritual gifting of all
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believers, male and female, but on the other hand they maintain
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distinct gender specific offices in church governance.
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And we want to understand the actual mechanics of their
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scriptural reasoning. We want to see how they arrive
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at this structure exegetically, just reading straight from their
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text. Yeah, we are just looking at
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their blueprint. So before we talk about church
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polity or elders or spiritual gifts, we have to establish the
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baseline. Where does this whole framework
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actually start? Well, it starts in the book of
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Genesis, OK. I mean, any theological position
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on humanity really has to begin with creation.
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And the text begins with this very enthusiastic affirmation of
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the worth and dignity of all persons.
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Drawing from Genesis chapter one, right versus 26 and 27.
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That's right. The text states that God created
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man in his own image, male and female.
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He created them. So the theological concept here
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is the Imago day. Bearing the image of God.
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Yeah, and the document points out that bearing the divine
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image implies a shared mandate. It's it is a cooperative effort.
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Both men and women are commanded to populate the earth and to
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rule over creation as God's representatives, which is a.
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Huge concept in ancient context. I mean, in ancient times a king
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would set up a statue of himself in a far off province just to
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declare his sovereignty over that land.
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Oh, that's a great historical parallel.
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Yeah, and in the biblical framework, humans are the
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living, breathing statues of the King of Kings.
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They're placed in creation to represent his rule.
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And the crucial detail from Norris's chapter is that this
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mandate was not given solely to the man, nor was it given solely
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to the woman. It was a shared cooperative
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mandate given to both of them equally.
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And the text also draws a connection to the nature of God
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himself. Here it notes that God's
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creation of the man and the woman as his image bearers
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reflects both their unity and their diversity.
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Which is an inherent feature of the Holy Trinity.
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Yes, and this is where we get into the mapping of the Godhead
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onto human relationships. It's a fascinating concept
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because it grounds human gender identity not in social
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constructs, but literally in the nature of God.
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Right, because you see unity, meaning they share the exact
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same human nature and dignity, but with distinct diversity as
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male and female. That is a vital point to grasp
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for this specific theological framework, But I want to point
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out something else the author, Lori Norris, notes.
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What's that? Well, she acknowledges that
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while gender roles are a massive topic of debate today, creating
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major cultural friction, Moody classifieds this specific topic
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as a secondary doctrinal issue. Yeah, that is a really
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significant categorization. Right.
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In theological circles, doctrines are categorized by
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their weight. Regarding Orthodox Christian
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faith, the document lists 5 main articles of core doctrine.
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The Trinity, the Scriptures, Christology, anthropology, and
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ecclesiology. Yes, those are the load bearing
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walls. If you remove the doctrine of
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the Trinity, well, the house collapses.
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You are no longer talking about historic Christianity.
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That makes perfect sense regarding Orthodoxy.
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But, and this is a question I think a lot of people would ask,
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what is the practical outcome of calling gender roles a
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secondary? Issue.
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Good question. Does that mean it lacks
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significance or are they saying it is simply not a test of
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salvation? Because it seems like you could
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hold different views on church polity and still be a brother or
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sister in Christ. You know, perfectly indwelt by
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the Holy Spirit. Yeah, precisely.
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The text makes it clear that it is a secondary issue regarding
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salvation. OK, that clarifies things.
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But as the document acknowledges, its implications
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are massive for how a local church functions day-to-day.
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It affects the structure, the teaching and the governance.
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It essentially dictates the architecture of the
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congregation. Which brings up a question about
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that day-to-day functioning. I mean, if we establish from
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Genesis One that both male and female are equal image bearers
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with equal dignity and a shared mandate to represent God on
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earth, how does that translate practically?
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Right, because the logical leap a lot of people make today is
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that if everyone has equal worth, then everyone should be
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doing identical jobs. Yeah, exactly.
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I mean that is the exact assumption people make.
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If two things are truly equal in value, the assumption is they
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must be interchangeable. The biblical text, though, and
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the Moody document pushes back against that assumption by
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moving from the broad concept of creation to the highly specific
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New Covenant concept of how believers operate within the
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church body. Oh, I see.
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Yeah, to answer your question about day-to-day functioning, we
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have to look at the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.
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Which is a monumental shift from in the Old Testament structure.
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It really is, and the Old Testament Israel had a very
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restricted priesthood. To be a priest, you had to be
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from the tribe of Levi, a descendant of Aaron and Male.
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Right. The priests were the mediators
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between God and the people. The average Israelite could not
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simply decide to be a priest. But the language in the New
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Testament is radical in comparison.
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The text references first Peter chapter 2 verses 5 and 9 in
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Revelation 1.6. What do those say?
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Well, first, Peter says, believers are being built up as
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a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to OfferUp spiritual
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sacrifices. It calls the church a royal
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priesthood. And the document explains that
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just as Israel functioned as a Kingdom of priests mediating the
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knowledge of God to the surrounding nations, the church
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now operates as a royal priesthood to the world.
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Yes, and the incredible reality of the New Covenant is that
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every single person who is in Christ is a priest.
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Regardless of gender, ethnicity, or socioeconomic status.
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Spot on. Everyone who's in Christ is in
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wealth by the Holy Spirit. The document points out that the
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reflection of Christ's image in the church has no gender
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distinction at all. So every believer has a Direct
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Line to God through the soul mediation of Jesus.
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Christ, yes, and every believer has a ministry function to carry
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out. The indwelling Holy Spirit does
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not just save a person and leave them passive.
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The Spirit equips the believer. The document actually states
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that the Holy Spirit enables, equips, and empowers the members
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of Christ's body to do His work in the world by giving gifts to
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each believer. And this includes gifts of
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teaching, encouraging, promoting unity and carrying out practical
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administration. You know the author highlights a
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specific phrase from Ephesians 4.7 that seems crucial for this
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framework. Oh, right, the verse says that
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grace was given to each one of us according to to the measure
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of Christ's gift. Exactly.
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I mean, yes, that is the verse. Norris points out that the text
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does not say the gifts were given to men.
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No it doesn't. It says they were given to each
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one of us. The gifts are given without
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distinction of any kind. That phrase is really the hinge
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upon which this entire section turns.
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It means that the Holy Spirit does not look at a congregation,
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separate the man from the women, and then assign teaching gifts
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to one group and administration gifts to another.
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Not at all. The Spirit distributes the gifts
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sovereignly across the entire body.
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Yeah, you will find women with incredible theological teaching
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gifts. You will find men with profound
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with incredible gifts of mercy and service.
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The distribution is totally universal.
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So let's think about the ramifications of this universal
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distribution. OK, let's look at the ancient
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church at Corinth. Paul wrote to them extensively
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because they had a major problem with spiritual gifts.
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They were treating them like status symbols, weren't they?
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They really were. The people with highly visible
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gifts thought they were superior to the people with quiet, behind
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the scenes gifts. It created this whole hierarchy
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of arrogance. And that fractured the church,
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Yeah. But the Moody document clarifies
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that the gifts of the Spirit are given strictly for the
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edification of the Church, not for the promotion of personal
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status. Right when you realize that your
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gift is a stewardship given by grace and its sole purpose is to
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build up the person sitting next to you, it just eliminates
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competition. You stop looking at the person
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leading the Bible study and wishing you had their status.
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Instead, you are grateful they are using their gift to feed
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your soul, just as you are using your gift to minister to someone
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else. And the text argues that each
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member, male and female alike, must diligently and eagerly
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steward these gifts without competition.
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That is the only way the body fully reflects its head, which
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is Christ. So we have established a massive
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baseline here, equal worth as image bearers from Genesis.
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Universal distribution of spiritual gifts to all believers
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from Ephesians and first Peter. Right.
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Both men and women are fully equipped by the Holy Spirit to
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teach, encourage and build up the Church.
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But possessing a gift is one thing, holding an official
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institutional title is another. And this is where the Moody
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document decouples ministry function from church office.
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This is the exact point where the framework diverges from many
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modern assumptions. We tend to fuse function and
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office together. We really do.
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If you function well in a particular area, we just assume
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you should hold the corresponding official office.
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But the Moody doctrinal statement explicitly separates
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them. I think a corporate analogy
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helps clarify the mechanics here.
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Here. Think about a large modern
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corporation. You have an accounting
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department with say 50 employees.
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Within that apartment there might be 1 specific individual
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who is a natural gifted leader. OK, when a crisis happens,
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everyone looks to them. When a new employee needs
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mentoring, they naturally gravitate toward this person.
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This individual has the function of leadership.
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They have the gift of strategic planning and conflict
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resolution. Yeah, and they are actively
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exercising those gifts every single day to the immense
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benefit of the company. However, the company only has
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one official legal position for director of accounting.
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Right, there is only one seat. Exactly.
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The natural leader in the department might not hold that
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official title. They are functioning as a
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leader, but they do not occupy the structural office.
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Because having the talent does not automatically grant the
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official title. Right, the title carries a very
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specific, legally defined accountability structure for the
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whole organization. That maps very well onto the
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ecclesiological framework presented in the text.
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In the local church, a person might have an incredible Holy
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Spirit given gift of teaching. They might be able to open up
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the book of Romans and explain the nuances of justification
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with absolute clarity. They are exercising a ministry
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function. But that does not mean they
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automatically hold the official governing church office of an
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elder. Or someone might have a
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remarkable shepherding gift. They visit the sick in the
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hospital. They counsel young couples.
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They check in on the elderly. They are pastoring people in a
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functional sense. Yes, but they are not the formal
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accountable pastor of the congregation.
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The text notes a simple mathematical reality to back
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this up. Actually, while everyone who
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holds an office must possess the requisite spiritual gifts, a
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gifted person is not guaranteed in office simply because the
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number of offices is finite. Right.
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A Church of 500 people might only have 5 or 6 official
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elders. But there might be 50 or 60
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people in that congregation with the spiritual gift of teaching
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or administration. The identification of various
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giftings in the New Testament does not require their exercise
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within a particular formal office.
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You know, the text offers a critique of modern culture here.
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Yeah, when we talk about who gets to hold the office, the
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secular world immediately frames the discussion around leverage
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dynamics. Who has the control?
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Who has the status? Who gets to call the shots?
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Right, the assumption is that if you were excluded from an
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office, you're being oppressed. The text mentions that too often
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modern culture frames the issue purely in terms of striving
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after personal gain, but the biblical framework for ministry
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is the exact opposite. It points to Ephesians 5,
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doesn't it? Yes, Ephesians 5.1721, which
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culminates in the command to be subject to one another in the
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fear of Christ. Mutual submission.
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That is the operating system of the New Testament church.
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Under the banner of mutual submission, no one is grasping
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for leverage. The person holding the office of
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elder is not doing it to Lord their authority over the
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congregation. No, they are submitting their
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life to the grueling work of shepherding souls, and the
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congregation is mutually submitting to one another in
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love. The entire structure is built on
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sacrificial love, not corporate ladder climbing.
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And the text argues that this framework of mutual submission
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is the absolute necessary context for understanding the
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specific limitations Scripture places on the office of the
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Elder. Because you cannot understand
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the restriction if you're viewing it through the lens of
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secular struggles for control. Which brings us to the
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scriptural case for why the office of Elder is gender
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specific, found in the Pastoral Epistles.
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OK, let's unpack that. The primary text the document
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examines are First Timothy chapter 3 in Titus chapter 1.
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Right. These are the two places in the
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New Testament where the Apostle Paul explicitly outlines the
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qualifications for a man to be appointed as an elder or
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overseer in a local church. The list includes character
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traits like being peaceful, gentle, prudent, respectable,
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hospitable, sensible, just in. The bar for this office is set
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incredibly high. It is, but it is a bar of moral
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and spiritual integrity, not necessarily academic pedigree.
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The document zeroes in on one specific phrase that appears in
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both First Timothy 3 and Titus. One Paul states that an elder
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must be the husband of one wife. Right, and the text goes into
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the Greek language here, noting the word used is an NR which
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specifically translates to a man or in a marital context, a
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husband. And the document clarifies what
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this does and does not mean. It does not mandate that an
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elder must be married. Because the Apostle Paul himself
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was not married. Right the thrust of the phrase
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is marital fidelity. However, the use of the word an
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honor establishes the clear scriptural assumption that the
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the office is held by a male. The grammatical structure
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assumes a male subject. But there is a second passage.
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The document brings in to illumine First Timothy 3 and
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Titus 1, and it is arguably the most debated passage in
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discussions about gender roles. You're talking about First
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Timothy chapter 2. Yes, verses 11 and 12 where Paul
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writes that he does not allow a woman to teach or exercise
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authority over a man. Take it out of context.
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That sounds incredibly harsh to modern years.
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It sounds like a blanket gag order on women in the church.
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But Laurie Mary Norris points out the context.
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She argues that Paul is not talking about general life or
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even general church gatherings. He is talking specifically about
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the New Testament office of Elder or Overseer.
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The key phrase being to teach or exercise authority over a man.
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Right. The Moody interpretation is that
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these are not 2 separate random activities.
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They are a coupled phrase referring to the singular
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function of the elder. So the one who teaches and
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exercises authority is the individual responsible for
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safeguarding the local local church's official doctrine.
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Wait, hold on. I need to push back on this
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because if we are taking the Bible as a cohesive whole, we
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have to synthesize all the data points.
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If First Timothy 2 says a woman cannot teach or exercise
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authority over a man in this specific elder capacity, how do
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we handle the book of Acts? You're think of Acts 18.
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Yes, Acts chapter 18 where we meet a woman named Priscilla and
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her husband Akilah. They encounter Apollos.
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And Apollos is described as an eloquent man, mighty in the
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scriptures. Right.
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He is a powerhouse preacher, but his theology is slightly
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incomplete. The text says that Priscilla and
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Aquila took him aside and explained to him the way of God.
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More accurately, Priscilla, a woman is actively instructing a
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man, a highly educated male preacher no less, in theology.
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How is she not violating the exact rule you just laid out?
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That seems like a massive contradiction in the text.
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The Moody document actually anticipates this exact pushback,
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and it uses the Priscilla and Apollo's account to prove its
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point. Really.
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Yeah. The text argues that First
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Timothy 2 is not a blanket ban on women teaching biblical or
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theological content to men. If it were, Priscilla would be
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in sin. And the book of Acts obviously
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does not present her actions as a sin.
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It's a positive, necessary correction.
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Exactly. Priscilla is the perfect example
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of a woman exercising a massive spiritual gift of teaching and
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theological discernment. She recognized the theological
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error, and she possessed the knowledge and the gift to
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correct it, but she was not acting in the capacity of a
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local church elder when she did it.
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She and her husband took Apollo's aside privately.
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They instructed him and edified him, but she did not step into
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the official authoritative office of the local church to
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enforce doctrine upon the congregation.
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The limitation in First Timothy is strictly confined to holding
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the formal governing office. The exercise of the teaching
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gift itself in various other contexts is fully affirmed.
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Let. Me, make sure I understand the
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mechanics of this distinction. Moody takes the position that a
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woman can be incredibly gifted in theology, can teach theology,
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can even correct the theology of a man, provided she's not
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operating from the structural seat of an ordained church
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elder. That is the precise boundary
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line they draw based on their reading of the Pastoral
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Epistles. The teaching of theology is not
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restricted by gender. The governing office that
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officially safeguards the doctrine of the local church is
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restricted by gender. This interpretation places Moody
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into a very distinct theological camp because in the broader
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evangelical world there are different ways of interpreting
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these texts. Yes, and the document outlines
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the two primary positions, egalitarianism and
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complementarianism. Let's look at those impartially.
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How does the text breakdown the egalitarian view?
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The egalitarian view focuses on total equality in all church
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roles. The primary proof text for this
19:50
view is Galatians 3.28. Where Paul writes that there is
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neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Yes. Egalitarians rely on this verse
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to argue for what the text calls a roles based equivalence.
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They argue that because we are all one in Christ and gender
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distinctions are erased in terms of our standing before God,
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those distinctions should also be erased in terms of church
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governance. So the on logical equality we
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possess are equal worth and dignity must translate into
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identical access to all ministry functions and offices.
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Right. Therefore, in the egalitarian
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view, a woman can hold any church office, including senior
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pastor or elder based on her gifting without any gender based
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restrictions. But the Moody document holds to
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the complementarian view. Walk me through how they define
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that, especially how they use the Trinitarian analogy because
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that seems like a heavy theological concept to map onto
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human relationships. It is, but it's central to their
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argument. The complementarian view argues
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that men and women have distinct interlocking roles that are
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designed to complement each other.
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They agree entirely with the egalitarian that men and women
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possess equal worth and dignity before God.
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They absolutely agree on the ontological equality, but they
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disagree that equality of essence requires there's
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interchangeability of roles. And the theological backing they
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use is the Trinity. Yes.
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Consider the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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They possess complete ontological equality.
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They are entirely equal in glory, in power, and in their
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fundamental divine essence. The Son is not less God than the
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Father. The Spirit is not a lesser
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being. They are equally God.
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Yet they possess distinct roles in the economy of redemption.
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The text gives a specific example.
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It says the Father does not become Incarnate to die on the
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cross. That specific work belongs only
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to the Son. And the son submits to the
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father's will. Right.
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The Son willingly assumes a role of submission to the Father, yet
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the Son is never at any point considered inferior in worth or
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essence to the Father. So they are taking the concept
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of economic subordination within the Godhead and applying it to
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church polity. Yes.
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If the eternal Holy Godhead can exist in perfect equality of
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essence while maintaining distinct subordinate roles, then
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human beings created in the image of that Godhead can also
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experience perfect equality of essence while operating within
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distinct structural roles. That's the argument.
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The Complementarian maps this trinitarian dynamic onto human
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genders, complete equality and dignity and worth before God,
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combined with distinct gender specific roles and the structure
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of the family in the church. A common counter argument the
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text anticipates is the cultural background argument.
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Right. People look at First Timothy and
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Titus and point out that Paul was writing in the 1st century,
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a deeply patriarchal world. Women were not educated in the
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same way men were, so the argument goes that Paul
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restricted the teaching office to men as a cultural
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accommodation for that specific time and place.
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And they argue that today our culture has changed, are highly
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educated, and so we should set aside those ancient
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restrictions. But the Moody position concludes
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that the scriptural instructions regarding the qualifications for
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elders are rooted in creation, not local culture.
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Because Paul anchors his argument in the creation order
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in First Timothy 2, the instructions cannot be dismissed
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as outdated cultural artifacts. The text states that cultural
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differences of ancient times do not provide adequate warrant to
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set aside explicit biblical affirmations or prohibitions.
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Because the office of elder in the early church was gender
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specific, they believe that pattern should be followed
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today. They are drawing a hard line on
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the exegesis. They understand the cultural
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argument, but they believe the text itself grounds the command
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in something deeper and more permanent than the 1st century
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sociology. So if a local church adopts this
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specific Moody framework, what are the practical boundaries?
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How does a woman engaged in ministry today operate within
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this system? The document stresses the narrow
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scope of this limitation. It is crucial to understand what
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the text is not saying. The doctrinal statement
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restricts one thing exclusively the formal office of elder or
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overseer in the local church polity.
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The statement imposes 0 limitations on women in other
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areas. Like para church organizations?
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Yes, para church organizations, educational institutions.
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This a vital distinction. A para church organization like
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a campus ministry, a publishing house, or a Bible institute does
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not operate under the ecclesiastical structure of a
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local church. It does not have elders
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administering the sacraments or exercising Church discipline.
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Exactly because it is not a local church, the restrictions
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of First Timothy 3 do not apply to it.
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In the same way, women can and do hold high levels of
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leadership and teaching authority in those spaces.
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And the most obvious example is Moody Bible Institute itself.
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I mean, the chapter we're analyzing was written by a
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woman, Lori Norris. Right, she is exercising her
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teaching gift to instruct both men and women in theology.
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I want to make sure I grasp the ontological difference here,
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though. Why does the framework view Lori
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Norris writing a theological textbook or teaching a seminary
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class full of men differently than a woman preaching from a
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pulpit on Sunday morning? What is the functional
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difference in authority? The difference lies in the
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nature of the institution. A local church is a divinely
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ordained covenantal body governed by elders who are
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accountable to God for the souls of their specific congregation.
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When an elder teaches from the pulpit, they are exercising A
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governing disciplinary authority over that specific local body.
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An academic classroom at a Bible institute or a theological
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textbook operates in the realm of information and education,
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not ecclesiastical governance. So students at Moody Bible
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Institute are not covenant Lee bound to Lori Norris as their
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spiritual overseer. Right.
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She is disseminating theological truth, but she is not holding
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the keys of Church discipline or administering the sacraments for
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them. The authority is academic and
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informational, not ecclesiastical.
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Therefore, the biblical restriction on the governing
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office of the Church does not apply to her academic teaching
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role. And the text explicitly affirms
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women exercising their gifts of teaching, preaching or
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shepherding in any setting apart from that specific church
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office. So a woman could write a
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theological commentary that pastors use to prepare their
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sermons. She could lead a large Bible
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study, speak at conferences or exercise her shepherding gifts
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by counseling church members. The framework highly encourages
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the application of all spiritual gifts.
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The text also brings up the concept of male headship within
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the structure of marriage. While complementarianism affirms
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this concept, the doctrinal statement leaves the practical
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day-to-day outworkings of that up to the individual spouses.
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They are expected to live it out, practicing mutual
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submission under the Lord rather than having a rigid checklist
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imposed on their household. And I think the overarching goal
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of the document in this final section is to shift the focus
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away from the secular battle of the sexes.
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Modern culture is locked in a constant struggle over leverage
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and who is allowed to do what. It is a 0 sum game of
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competition. But the Moody framework attempts
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to defy that dynamic. Instead of focusing obsessively
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on the one specific office that women are restricted from
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holding, the text calls for a massive mobilization of women's
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spiritual gifts across the entire spectrum of ministry
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opportunities. It is a call to abundance, not
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restriction. The closing thought from Lori
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Norris's chapter summarizes this perfectly.
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She writes that the wholehearted training of women for work in
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Christ's Kingdom alongside their brothers were similarly called
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redirects the world's assumptions.
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When the world looks at the church, they should not see a
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battle for control. They should see men and women
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equally gifted by the Spirit, working side by side in mutual
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respect. Utilizing every ounce of their
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talent for the glory of God, all while operating joyfully within
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a divinely appointed structure. We have examined a highly
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structured theological framework today.
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We really have It is a system that begins with a defense of
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the equal worth and dignity of all image bearers, male and
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female, based on Genesis 1. Recognizes the universal, non
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discriminatory distribution of spiritual gifts to every single
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believer by the Holy Spirit. It completely decouples natural
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ministry function from the official structural title and it
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simultaneously maintains a gender specific limitation on
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the governing doctrine safeguarding office of the local
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church elder. Based on a direct reading of the
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Pastoral Epistles and the theological analogy of the
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Trinity. It requires holding multiple
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truths in tension. It requires affirming complete
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equality of essence while honoring distinct structural
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roles. And it requires A congregation
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to operate in genuine mutual submission, stripping away the
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secular desire for control and a placing it with a desire for the
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edification of the body. Here is something for you to
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Mull over as we finish up today. We've spent a lot of time
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talking about the structure, the rules, the boundaries.
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Let us think about the implications of the gifts
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themselves. If the Holy Spirit truly
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distributes gifts of teaching, administration, wisdom, and
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shepherding to the church without any regard to gender,
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and the church is commanded to utilize those gifts for its
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maximum health and maturity, consider this.
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How might local congregations currently be missing out on
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vital spiritual growth simply because they haven't put in the
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hard work to find creative non elder pathways for their female
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members to fully exercise those gifts?
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That's a challenging question. If the gifts are there sitting
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in the pews and the church is only looking at the elders to do
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all the work, the body's operating in a fraction of its
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strength. That goes back to our orchestra.
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Right. The conductor is vital.
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The structure is vital. But if the string section isn't
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allowed to play because they don't hold the baton, the music
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suffers. Thank you so much for joining us
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on this deep dive into the source material.
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We hoe it gave you some clear insight into the architecture of
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this theology. We will catch you next time on
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Reformed Thinking.