Latest / The Thriving School Podcast with Jenni Awesome / How Puppetry Helps Children Communicate: Safety, Connection & Relational Puppetry with Helen Meurs

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How Puppetry Helps Children Communicate: Safety, Connection & Relational Puppetry with Helen Meurs · The Thriving School Podcast with Jenni Awesome

• Jenni Awesome: And thank you for tuning in to the Jenni Awesome podcast. Today's guest is going to challenge us to think differently about what it really means to connect with a child, especially the child who doesn't seem to want to connect with us. Helen Muirs has spent 30 years finding ways to reach children who struggle to show us what's really happening beneath the surface. She began her career as a primary school teacher. And went to s went on to spend 15 years running the Netherlands' largest hand puppet web shop while training professionals across Europe. Along the way, she developed something called relational puppetry, a methodology that uses hand puppet not as entertainment or performance, but as a relational bridge between an adult and a child. Her work now used by educators, speech language pathologists, special education professors, and child coaches, play therapists, counselors, others working with children who may struggle with communication, behavior, language, trust, or emotional expression. And I absolutely love the question underneath Helen's work. What if the child we think is refusing to communicate? simply doesn't feel safe enough to communicate with us yet. So today let's welcome Helen, the founder of Relational Puppetry to the Jennifer Awesome Podcast. How are you doing today, Helen? Helen Meurs: Thank you. Yes, I'm doing fine. if I hear all this, then I think, wow, that's a lot. Jenni Awesome: Ha Helen Meurs: That's a lot for just such a simple question. But that is exactly what what I do. So I'm very honored that I can tell you and the listeners, the people who are watching your show The most intriguing, the most fascinating tool I have ever met, the hand puppets. And what you can do with that. Yeah. Jenni Awesome: So let's talk a little bit about you. How did you know, how did you start? How did you even find this question and find this solution? Where did you start? Helen Meurs: Well it started when I I became a teacher because I wanted to make a difference in a child's life. I think that education is education is so needed for and because it gives a child the chances to grow and wherever you grow up, wherever wherever your nest is, when or your crib is you can become Everything you want to be. That is something that my grandmother always taught me when I was little. And education for me is one of the keys. if education is nice enough for you, then you will be a long life learner, and that long life learning will bring you to the places you want to be. always believed that yeah that when you want to change things that you need to begin with the children. So I wanted to make a difference in a child's life. I wanted to be that adult in their life that my grandmother had been in my life just to be there, just to yeah, just to support and tell you again and again and again that you matter and that you can become Anything that you want to be, so that was my motivation, and that's why I went into education. And when I was in my last year, in my my training. Then I met a classroom with children and there was one boy and Luca was his name and that boy yeah I took him with me every night at home because there was something about him that there was something about him and I couldn't get through to him and that's When I realized that we as an adult are not safe enough, because that moment I saw in him, and that's maybe why he triggered me. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: I saw what the behavior, what I did as a child myself, and I wasn't a safe child, I didn't feel safe. And my goal was to make it as safe as possible for the children I worked with, but apparently. I couldn't do that as my own, not even with all with my history, with all the things that I had experienced myself. So I Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: needed something that was safer than me. And yeah, what could be safer than me? That was the question that rose. What can I do to help him help Luca? talk talk to me, say the things that are on his heart or on his mind. And yeah, that became a puppet. I had learned in my studies that a puppet could be a handy tool, that children talk more easily to a puppet, and I had to make a puppet as an assignment. So I had a puppet and I had never used it before, but that was the moment that I decided okay, I can try this, I can try, I can try something with. puppet and I had no idea how. I don't only had the puppet, but that was the beginning. Yeah. Jenni Awesome: That's amazing. Just going through the thought process even of recognizing I'm not safe to this child right now. How do I bridge that gap? Like that is such an amazing just going through that thought process. And for you to come up with having that puppet, it's, you know, it's it's kind of fortuitous that you had made that puppet in that class Why why did you make a puppet Helen Meurs: Yeah, that's yeah. Jenni Awesome: in the class in the first place? Helen Meurs: I am trained in the Netherlands and we had to pick our classes. What do you want to specialize in? And I had chosen crafts. I wanted to make things that was one of my talents, I thought. And one of the assignments in those lessons were create a costume. And that was too big for me. I didn't want to make just a costume, so I asked my teacher, can I make a small costume with a puppet in that? Because then I make something that I can use. And she was Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: okay with with that. And that was when Doki, my first pup puppet, that was the beginning of of my first was of my first pupp puppet. And at the same period, I got a book, and I think it was all it some a few things came together at the same moment. I had that puppet, I had that child that didn't want to speak to me, and I got a book from my from one of my mentors who said it was the book of the drama of the gifted child by Alice Miller. And he gave it to me and he said, Helen, I think you need to read this because I think this is about you. And he was right. That book was about me, was about children like me. And what happened through that book is that I thought, okay, okay, it is about safety. That safety is a big thing. And another thing that I That I realized by reading that book was the role of the helping witness. And I recognized Alice Miller describes a person in her book, and it can be anyone, but it is just someone in the environment of the child who is supporting the child, who is safe, who is open to listen to the child, to just be there, just be there. And I really loved that idea because that is what my grandmother did for me. I grew up Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: in an unsafe environment, but there was always my grandmother. There was always my grandmother who took me with her to the library, who baked cookies with me, who I was always welcome at her at her place. So she actually saved my life. She gave hope. As a child, and I saw her back in that Alice Miller book as the helping witness, the one who was safe enough for the child. And yeah, then if if there's only one person, and I think that's a very hopeful idea, is that if there is only one person in the environment of the child that that steps into that role, then you can Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: save the child. And those three three things came together at the same A moment and then I thought, okay, would it be possible that a puppet can be that helping witness? That was what I wanted to to discover. Because if we are not safe enough, and a puppet is, that Jenni Awesome: Right. Right. Helen Meurs: opens doors, that gives us opportunities that we don't have. as a teacher that we don't have as a caregiver or or educator. that was what I was thinking at that moment. It was never about puppetry for me. It was always about how can I open the door to to this child. The from the beginning that was my my goal and I was always busy in my mind with how can we make it as safe as possible. Jenni Awesome: is there a age range that the that the puppet works better as the safe witness or does it can it work for all ages of people or or is there a point where say our cognitive development just kind of is like, no, I'm not talking to a puppet? Helen Meurs: I'm not talking to a puppet. Yes, I have had that that age too, but I started with kindergartners with four to Jenni Awesome: Okay. Helen Meurs: six years, four to six year olds. That they are very open to it to a puppet. It was very easy to work with a puppet with that age, and after that I started experimenting with older children and I discovered that 10, 12-year-olds are still open to a puppet, but you have to change the entrance. The puppet has to grow with the child because the topic that you open the door with that matters. And when I I will grab a puppet to show you, when when I entered a room with a 10-year-old and she said hi Then of course that ten year old started laughing and didn't feel taken seriously by me because well hey this that is a puppet miss and that was as that was what the older children told me. But if you can just let that be and don't Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: want to argue with a child or just be curious what will happen next. then you can start using a puppet with all the children too, because it's not about A puppet a puppet can be as childish as you make it. If if a puppet starts with with a phone and says, Hey, I used a very old Nokia phone often, a very Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: old model of a Nokia phone and and went into a group of 10, 12 year olds with my puppet with that phone and said hey I have this phone and I want on WhatsApp or I want on Instagram, but I can't do that with my phone. Can you help me pick a new one? Because I don't know where to start. There are so many phones. Where do I where do I start? And then the then children got interested, even that 10 12 year olds, because I I started about a topic that had their interest. So that is what I discovered. It's not about the puppet itself, it's about Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: the topic that you use. So every time that I start with a puppet and a child, whatever age, the first thing I want to I want to discover is what is something that this child is really curious about? What makes this child happy? Because if I Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: know that, then I can use that topic to let my puppet come in. And that are a few things that I discovered that it isn't about the puppet. The puppet is only my vehicle. The puppet is only creating that way in and gives me language that I can't have as myself. But the the biggest part of working the way that I do has to do with find out. What interests this child? What makes this child happy? How is this child thinking? And what can I do? to connect, to bridge that gap? What are the sentences I can use? What are the topics I can use? And if you start thinking that way, then using a puppet isn't that difficult anymore, then it's just a technique that you learn once. And can repeat over and over and over again. So yeah, it's very fun because you get to know children in a way, I have felt like Alice in Wonderland a lot of times, because every time that my puppet opened the door to their world, I realized okay, now they show me something that they would never show me. I get to see parts of the child that they would never show me. Never they would never would would share with me. So that's very special. Jenni Awesome: So let's say that that there's a an adult out there who's trying to work with a kid and and let's say that they do keep pushing in this non-supportive way to try and get the child to talk, to participate or say explain themselves before they build that relationship, before they help the kid to feel safe. What what are some of the repercussions of that? Helen Meurs: The children will not talk to you, they will withdraw even further. If you keep pressing children, then you will not reach your goal. The only thing that you are doing then is closing the door further. That's child I saw children and we all do that. We all when we can't reach a child, we try more, we try to be kinder, Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: we be nice, still nicer and Give children space, but the child feels that. The child knows that you are trying all kinds of things to get the child speaking, and every time, and that happened with me as a child, too. I thought, no way, no way, I decide when I let you in, not you. So, so they do they do this, they they close up even more, so they got. more stuck in themselves if you if you try harder and harder and harder. So I that's Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: something that I have never done since I use a puppet. Never. And it's not needed anymore because I have my puppet. So why would I force a child? I let my puppets do the work. Yeah. Jenni Awesome: So so when you're creating this safe third person with the puppet, what is that experience like where the child finally recognizes, hey, this is a safe person for me, I'm able to then share. how do the kids open up once they they feel safe? Helen Meurs: I can demonstrate that better with with Jenni Awesome: Okay. Helen Meurs: a with a puppet. How I always start is with with a puppet that is just looking. Just looking. And if I feel like the child feels a bit uncomfortable when the puppet looks at him, then she stares at something. She looks at something. Not directly to to the child. And then she just starts talking. When she doesn't make any eye contact, then she can see, Did you see him? It's a fly. It's a fly. There's a fly. There's something. Or when I see something outside, she can say, I saw a bird. Did you see it too? So it's not about the child. We make we enter the conversation differently. And when the the child is comfortable with making eye contact with the puppet, then she only says hi Only that's Only that. And and and then and then she then she the her next question would be who are you? Because she don't doesn't know the name of the child. That's the first thing that she sees, the child. So even if I work with the child for two years already and I know everything about the child, she is new to the child. So she Jenni Awesome: Okay. Helen Meurs: ha she have she hasn't seen the child before, so she can ask. Everything she can ask Are you? Do you like to be here? Do you have brothers and sisters? All all that kinds of things. What what are things that you like? Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. And and she just has a just that natural curiosity that helps Helen Meurs: Yes. Jenni Awesome: the kids recognize that hey, I'm seen, valued, and heard by this third third person. Helen Meurs: Yes, yes, what she wants to what she wants to be for the child is a friend. She wants I just she's just curious, who are you? I want to know you. That's everything in what she asking and what she is saying is about I want to know you. And if a child Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: says something that could have that could give a reaction from me, she Don't have that reaction, and that is the biggest thing that we educators need to learn when we work with a puppet, because a puppet, in my approach, is always on the child's side. So the puppet is always curious. And if the child has done something that I wouldn't approve, for example, Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: the child has hit another child, then the puppet would never say, You are not allowed. that's bad. The puppet will never do that. In my approach, a puppet doesn't do that. She only wants to know, but why did you do that? Did he do something that you didn't like? Was he pushing you? Was it too much? And if a a child then says, Yeah, yeah, he was doing this or that with me and I was completely done with it, then she says, Yeah, I can I can understand. So she she doesn't judge the child. And that makes Jenni Awesome: Right. Helen Meurs: that makes her very safe. And and if we as an adult don't interfere with what happens between the child and and the puppet, then the puppet Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: becomes safe. So Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: that is the biggest thing that we have to learn when we work with a puppet, because we have we feel that we want to interfere all the time because we want the child to do things our way, and a puppet doesn't care. I don't think in right or wrong. I just want to know why you did that. I want to understand. And if a child feels that I can tell you everything and it doesn't have any consequences for me, then the puppet becomes safe. And my goal is always been I want to understand why a child did some things. Because if I understand it, then I can work with the child on that, or it can sh maybe it shifts how I look at a child. I want that information. And that means that if I have that information, I can work with that information, but never directly because the child didn't Tell me it told the puppets. So I know what's going on, but I can't always do something with it directly. Jenni Awesome: say you're working with a kiddo in a discipline situation where the puppet learned this is what happened, this is why. So then how do you bridge the gap between, okay, so the the student is now talking to the puppet, they've shared that information and you want to be able to build off of what you've learned. How do you make that transition? Helen Meurs: Yeah, it depends on it depends on what exactly happened. When it is about the example that a child hit another child, it's that's something that we never want to promote. We don't want a child to do that again. So even when a puppet understands that doesn't mean that she says, Okay, it's okay. She only says I understand. I understand why you did that, but her next question will be, and did it help? And in most in most situations Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: the child isn't that proud of himself that he did that, but he couldn't think of a different way. And in that moment a puppet can say well, do you know what I sometimes do? So we can give a child a different solution, and then it doesn't come from me as an educator, as a lesson, Jenni Awesome: Right. Helen Meurs: but from her as a friend who wants to support who wants to support. So that is a diff there's a different energy in that. So all the things that we want to learn the child, we give them a different coat. We stuck we we stock them, we we offer them in a different way. Then we would do ourselves. So the child doesn't feel judged, doesn't feel rejected, it only feels supported. Jenni Awesome: That's amazing. And I could just imagine that having that type of a conversation for the the child, they would leave feeling so much better, so much freer, so much safer. And they can actually then internalize, hey, here's what I learned. I can actually move forward and take these risks and make those changes and and be a better person because I have this support person who helped. Walk me, talk me through it. Helen Meurs: Yes, yes, yes, and that that that was what happened. I had a a little boy in my classroom and he had some difficulties with emotional regulation and he could he really could could explode from one second Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: to another and what happened was that he got a fight in fight with almost all children and At certain point, they were really afraid of him because you never knew when the moment was there that he would and then he was really nasty. Then he could throw blocks, it was really an awful guy at that moment. So my puppet came in at a certain moment and said, Okay, I want to play with you. I want to play with you, let's play together. And he started yelling to her too. And at that moment she says, Okay, I'm leaving. I don't want you to to yell at I don't want you to yell at me. And then he said, I'm not yelling, and then she said, Yeah, you do, and I don't like it. So she chose to go out of that of that play. And Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: the the A few days later, she asked him again, can we build together that big tower? Because I want to learn to build a very big tower. You are very good at that. And I want you to teach me that. But if you start yelling at me, I will go out of the play again. I don't want Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: you to do it that with me. But if I feel like you are going to yell, I will tell you, hey. Now you're doing it. I don't like that. So you can decide if you go further or not. So we did that a few times. And Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: at the same time she said, when things are not going like I want it to go, then I try this, or then I try that and that helps me. So we We gave him a few strategies that he could use. When I am very angry, when I feel I'm very angry, and when I feel that my my hands become fist, then I go then I do this three times. It helps me. So let's try. So we tried some some strategies with him with him and it really Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: helped. So we invited other children in. And and told them what to do. If he do does this, then you say, I don't want that. Let's try do the three times blowing thing. And all the children started doing that and and and they all started saying to him, I don't want that. So she they all started setting their boundaries, and that was the Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: beauty of working with a puppet. in a group because we we practiced it, other children could s see what we were doing, and they did the same. They copied our strategies for themselves but also to other to the other children so everybody learned when it comes to programs about bullying. It's always about Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: the person that is bullying and never Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: about the others that have a responsibility in that too. And in in the way that I approached it, it was something from this group. We all have a shared responsibility. Because if you don't do anything, you are also a part of the problem. So let's take Let's help each other saying what we want and what we don't want. And my puppet, her name is Jane, that means yes-no in Dutch. It is always in her name already that it is about setting boundaries. I like to say yes and I like to say no. Yes, I have it, I have it both. And it is chosen to help children set boundaries because I saw as a kindergarten teacher how many children find it difficult. to say yes and say no and what happens when we don't teach that children. And often we think well, they will learn from its f from from itself and they will learn just by being with others and I don't think so. I think that we that is something that we need to help children with. Jenni Awesome: And I think the most beautiful part of that whole situation that you're talking about is that I I can imagine that for that group of kids, they feel like they came up with it as kids and that's powerful because the puppet is more like one of them than say an adult telling them what to do. So they're really embodying, okay, I have the power, I can set boundaries and I can tell another person. I don't like what you're doing and that's not a bad thing. It's actually a a truly Helen Meurs: Yeah, yeah. Jenni Awesome: positive, powerful thing. And I could just imagine how that has shifted the way that these kids are able to to then interact with each other on a social level for the rest of their lives. Helen Meurs: Yeah, yeah, because they have the right to say no. And when they don't want it, and if you can create a puppet that isn't a second you, and that is all about character building. Character building I think is an important part of creating a puppet as your tool, just knowing what do I want this puppet to help children with because It mustn't be a second to you. It the Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: puppet mustn't feel as an educator, it must feel as a friend, but it has to have characteristics that helps the child with the things that a five-year-old can't think of itself yet. So it is about transforming the things that you know that that child needs to learn into a puppet. that is a friend for the children and that can support them, that can take them with her of him, at in learning that that strategy and yeah I have tested that a lot with children and it is it's insane what the easiness in which a puppet Can help children and support children in solving some quite big problems, and Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: that's why I think it's such a pity, it's such a pity that a puppet isn't used that much in education, because I think that this is the tool we all need. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Do you want to talk just for a couple minutes on like how you created your puppets, how you've chosen your puppets? Because I think about like, so I when I grew up, I had a it was we called it baby bear. It was this little black bear puppet that we had in the house. It was one of my favorite things. I would use it all the time. and I know we talked earlier before the podcast. about one of my students who she always carried around this stuffed shark. And had I recognized that opportunity at the time, I probably could have had a really good conversation with the shark and learned more about her. But could you talk a few minutes on on how you build that character or what you what you recommend when a person is creating or choosing a puppet to use? Helen Meurs: Yeah, there is there is written a book that's called that the puppet mirrors your I don't know the exact title but it is about that you see yourself when you are creating a puppet and my first puppets were made by myself I have have I started with with self-made I with self-made puppets with very simple puppets you can even start with a sock if you want to try something before Buying a puppet, but what I know and what I s have seen for 15 years when I had that hand puppet web shop is that you feel what your puppet is. We often think a lot about what the puppet should be, but you can see it. I saw it when people came into my store picking a puppet, then I saw that they That something changed in their eyes when they had this one on their hand, or this one on their hand, or this one on their hand. You can see, you can see it in your eyes. There is a sparkle. When something inside you is triggered by a puppet, then you can see it in your eyes. It is there's a sparkle. There is something in your eyes says yes, you feel it. And that's not something that you can think we overthink picking a puppet too often. It is you know your inner child knows and that says yes to to to a puppet. And that's why a lot of children have a certain puppet that they like more than others. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: If you give children 12 puppets. Then there is often one or two that are their favorites. And yeah, that is because there are their yeses, there is a story they tell themselves about that puppet that speaks to them more, that feels safer, if you want to say it like that, than that other puppet. They are more connected with with those two, and as an adult, it's the same thing. when you when you pick a puppet based on all kinds of characteristics or I want it I want a puppet with a movable mouth and you see an a an another puppet that that you like but it doesn't have the movable mouth then okay then that puppet we don't we don't do because that movable mouth is very important to us so so my opinion in my opinion it's always the puppet That sparks something in you, you have to love a puppet. So if you don't fall in love with your puppet, you can't work with it because then it's just a cognitive choice and cognizant cognitive choices when it comes to a puppet don't work, you have to connect with a puppet yourself. So Jenni Awesome: Yeah, it if Helen Meurs: so picking a puppet for a group of children or for a child. Isn't the best way if you want to have a puppet as your tool? You need a puppet you can fall in love with yourself. And that that feels a bit awkward, maybe, but that is what I have seen happen 15 years when I sold puppets, and that's my own experience too. If I don't like a puppet, Jenni Awesome: And I Helen Meurs: then it's not my Jenni Awesome: I can imagine that if if I had a block with the tool that I'm using, the puppet I'm using, that's gonna show up when I'm trying to work with the students with the kids. So having no limitations truly and fully embodying loving that puppet is important because it's that extension and it builds that further relationship connection with the student because they're truly going to see that and recognize it. And I felt that way. our family plays D D Dungeons and Dragons. And so there Helen Meurs: Mm-hmm. Jenni Awesome: are some characters that I've tried to play that I just I didn't love the full aspect of that character, but I have this one character that I just I love playing her. I love embodying her and and she's my favorite. So anytime I get to play that character, like it's another level for me, and I truly enjoy playing because I really resonate with that character. Helen Meurs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that character works best for you. If you if you could pick from five characters which is yours, then you always will pick that one because that is your favorite. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: And no one can do it like you. And that's the best thing about a puppet too. I have sometimes I was in a workshop in the Netherlands and then were there were five people who all chose the same puppets. And but they created five different puppets, five different characters because when you fill in a character it also it always says something about yourself. Because it's not only what you the the pictures you have in your head when you see that puppet but it's Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: it's it's there It's also a part of your own story, lives with that puppet, comes to life with with that puppet, and that makes a puppet also a bit scary for a lot of people because yeah that means that you show a a part of yourself while playing the puppet, and yes, that is true, that is true. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. something I wanted to touch on. So if we have people out there listening that maybe, you know, they feel like they have to do this perfectly. What I noticed as you're using the puppet, you're not being like a ventriloquist. You're not trying to hide the fact that you're talking. You can still authentically be you. You can still talk. You're still using the puppet as a tool. So can you talk on that a little bit to, you know. get rid of some of the stigma of I have to do this perfectly for it to work. Helen Meurs: Yeah, I think a perfectly is is my a banner is my banned word since a few years because I think that perfect, yeah, it is it doesn't help you and it doesn't help children either. So I think that we educators need to start get rid of perfect for ourselves and for And for the child. And when it comes to a puppet, perfect is if you want to go perfect with a puppet, then you will never start. And that is what I have seen a lot with puppets because we think we have to do it perfectly. we never start because it is stumbling in the beginning. When you want to when you want to drive your car for the first time, it Will not work out perfectly directly too. And the same applies for a puppet. It's just a skill. You have to practice. And the first times are not your best times. But the best thing about a puppet and children, that combination, is that that puppet does something to the children that makes them want to help you. So instead of trying it to do perfectly, just accept. That that puppet in the beginning will do this. Stare at at the ceiling because you didn't you forgot that that puppet was on your hat of on your hand, and what children will do then is this they will look at the ceiling too. So so they are a sort of a mirror for you. And if you are not feeling criticized about that, and I I learned I learned that I just learned that that when children do that that I just can do this and let the puppet say I did it again help me just help me become better on that so now I teach my students the the the professionals I train just be honest about that Say it just say to the children, I'm learning this, I am new to this, so I need your help. If you see something that is a bit weird, just tell me. Tell me Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: when when I am talking with this voice and the puppet is not doing something, or differently the the puppet is talking with my voice, so help me, and that is what that that is what happened. Children start. Started helping me say, Hey, he's not talking. And then he said, Thank you. So children and the puppet became to cooperate together. And that made that made that bond stronger. And that showed me that children don't care if the puppet is perfect. They only want him to be there. And Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: that is the best lesson. That you can get and you never come there when you think that it has to be perfect because then you never experience that children don't care. They just don't care, they only want us to be there. So ask them to help you. And that is that is what I have done with my trainings. the last years just give people sentences they can use to be a bit vulnerable na to children and just say hey guys I am learning it feels like a lot of fun when I can use a puppet but I don't know how to do that. So I went to school and now I have to practice a bit and I want you to help me. And children do that because they find it very cool That their teacher is going to school too. So all the things that all the things that we think that we shouldn't share with children, I share Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: that with them because I have noticed that it helps them to see me as a human and that it helps me to practice because they cooperate with me now instead of yeah, asking me questions that I don't have the answer to. And if you want to do it perfect, then all the time you think you are in your head and you think, okay, what's next? What's next? What's next? And if I if I if I skipping that perfect part, then I have my puppets. Then I have my puppet and I can see what's happening between the child and my puppet. I'm not in my head anymore thinking about what's my next step. So that is the big bigger advantage. Jenni Awesome: Well, if I'm a classroom teacher and I'm looking at using a puppet in my classroom, how would I know like when is a good time to use a puppet with like one on one with a kiddo versus, you know, like whole group instruction? What how how would I know when it's a good time to use one? Helen Meurs: Yeah, that's a that's a great that's a great question because in when it comes to teachers, it's a question that always comes back. When can I use a puppet and how do I start? And the most Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: easy way to start with a puppet is in circle time, because then a puppet can come and and and ask a question or tell something small and go away again. And you have to build that up. Working with a puppet in your classroom is a process. When it is there, when you introduce it and it is there all the time, then it will give a lot of chaos in the beginning. So and you don't want that. So if if if you start like that, then that puppet will be gone within three weeks. But Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: if you build it up, if you have a plan, and that is the most important thing, When you buy a puppet and immediately take that puppet into your classroom, you are not prepared for what will happen there. We only think where we teachers, we think in I buy a puppet because I want children to speak more, or I buy a puppet because I want children to practice with their language skills. I buy a puppet because I want to use it for their social emotional development. We know where we want to go with the puppet. Jenni Awesome: Ray. Helen Meurs: But we don't know how to come there. And because we it and if we skip that step, and that's a quite a big gap between entering with a puppet and doing that activity, that part that is in between there is the foundation of everything you can do afterwards with a puppet. And if you skip that, you never come to that activity, I noticed. But so so the the The best way to start with a puppet is to realize I take a new identity with me into my classroom. It's something I want children to build a relationship with. Well, what does building a relationship mean? What does that mean? What do you do? You ask questions. You want to know who are you? You give time to let children ask your puppet some questions. They want to know him. what when when does he leave? What does he say when he leaves? When when does he come back? What does he say when when he com comes back? So if you think about all the things that can happen with with your puppet, and that's a lot, then you are prepared and then the chances that you keep using your puppet become way bigger than when you just take your puppet randomly into your classroom and start improvising. I can improvise very good, but when I start using a puppet, I don't improvise, I have a plan. And I have a plan because I know what I want to do with a puppet. I can compare with building a house. I need a foundation, I need walls, and my activities is the roof. So first Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: I need to have that foundation and that wall. So that are my first weeks. And for that for that part I choose most easy moments, a circle time, when when we have a break just after the break, what did you do outside? And every time a very small a very small question, one question, not a whole bunch of questions, but every time one question who has a pet? Well, what is your pet? And if someone says I have new shoes, well that's not that's not a question. We we do the pet question today. And because if you go from one topic to a div to another topic with your puppet, then you can then you create chaos. So in Jenni Awesome: Right. Helen Meurs: my in my approach and and especially in that beginning, that beginning is quite structured until You feel now I feel quite comfortable with my puppet because that is the most important thing. It's not only what the children are doing, but how are you feeling with with the puppet? Do you feel in control of the situation? Yes or no? Because as long as the answer to that is no, I don't feel in control. You feel insecure with your puppet, and the bad the the best things will happen when you feel start feeling secure with your puppet. So I'm Jenni Awesome: Yeah, yeah. Helen Meurs: always heading towards I want you to feel as secure as possible with the puppet, and to come there, you need to have experiences that you can do this, that the things that you are offering through your puppet are manageable for for you so. Yeah, that's that's how I have builded my courses too. You start simple. Jenni Awesome: So you said that when you bring in a new a puppet for the first time, you you have an idea of well, you have a plan of what it is that you want that puppet to teach, to share, to kind of embody. Do you ever take that puppet and go to different topics, or would you introduce a different puppet if, say, you have one puppet that really wants to work on like, I don't know, maybe how do we talk to each other? How do we set boundaries? And then you have one that's like, Man, I'm I'm really angry all the time. How do I deal with anger? Do you do you bring in different puppets? Does the same puppet talk about the same thing? What do you recommend? Helen Meurs: Yeah, well well I will I will give an answer to that. Jenni Awesome: Okay. Helen Meurs: because we used one puppet. We are not a fan, she is not a fan of using more than one puppet in the classroom. No, because you make Jenni Awesome: Gotcha. Helen Meurs: it very complicated. And I have seen in the Netherlands a lot of teaching methods that used more puppets for rhyming. There was a puppet for Words, there was a puppet, and there were a lot of puppets, and every time Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: you needed to ask yourself as a teacher, which puppet do I use to which puppet do I use for this? We don't do this because I am a learning creature myself, and I want to know about rhyming. I want to know new words, I am interested. I'm in interested in counting. I have arguments with my friends too. So using just one puppet makes it Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: so much easier for yourself and for the children because children can bond more easily with one puppet than Jenni Awesome: Right. Helen Meurs: with all those different puppets that are that are there for yeah maybe an hour. or less a week. I'm coming back every day. Jenni Awesome: And it it it helps them to build a stronger relationship to really truly have that safe person, that bigger depth of a relationship with the one puppet than say the multiple. Okay. Helen Meurs: Yes, yes. Ma but the most important thing for this and for me was it is very complicated to work with more than one puppet because then you think, okay, what is this puppet doing? What is Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: the voice of this puppet? Then you immediately go into your head. And what I have experienced is that a puppet working with a puppet is in your stomach. It's it's it's a it's a belly feeling. And it comes from your heart and that works better than when a puppet comes from your head. And if you bond yourself with one puppet and you know where it's curious about, and it can be about all those different topics that a child needs to learn. She can come Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: in and says, I saw I saw a traffic sign. Yes, I make a I made a picture of it. I don't know what to do here, do you? And then immediately a lesson can start, and that is very natural. And the next day an a child can come in and says, I saw a traffic sign too, and that is learning in a way that I like a lot because then it comes from the child itself, so then Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: there is a sort of an interest that makes the child want to learn and that is what that is what we often did and you can do that with one puppet that is just curious about everything, about books, about yeah, even about the packages from from the macaroni. Does it ha does it call it macaroni in s in English too? Spaghetti? The pasta? Yes. Jenni Awesome: Yes. Yes. Helen Meurs: Yeah, what's on that? What can you see on that for everything? Yeah, everything. I was in our I was in our city center this morning to pick a gift for her. And yeah, then I film all kinds of things and I can show that to the children, the things that I have seen here, and a fish that swam in the water, and all kinds of things. So everything that I see. I can use for her, and with all Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: the possibilities we have now with a smartphone, I I film a lot, and and she Jenni Awesome: yeah. Helen Meurs: is never on that. She's never on that, but I can use it as look what I saw and then show what I have filmed. So yeah, it is the the more I started working with a puppet, and I started with only using a puppet in in the circle, Two, the more Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: I started using a puppet, the more possibilities I saw when children were working. My puppet could could visit them and ask, How is it going? Is it difficult or what? And if I felt this is a big a too big of a task for this child, I see this child struggle, then my puppet Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: could say, Well, this is way too big. Can't you say? Miss Helen, this is way too big for me. And then the child often dared to tell me that it was too big. And Jenni Awesome: Nice. Helen Meurs: it felt supported by my puppet. So there are a lot of possibilities when your puppet is integrated in your pedagogical climate, then it is then it has a lot of possibilities that we often don't think about when we think about Jenni Awesome: Right. Helen Meurs: the pocket. Jenni Awesome: And and would the same the same type of process apply, say, for like a homeschooling parent or a parent who maybe they recognize their their kiddos having a difficult time communicating that they could use the same process too. Helen Meurs: Yeah. Yes, and and play therapist, everybody who works in childcare can use it, is always the same approach, it's always about building safety, and the next thing you do is apply it to whatever you are doing when you are a homeschooling parent, then you have to then you you work with your own children, so that is a different that is a different environment. And you apply the puppet in that environment, you ask yourself, where does that pup why where does my puppet live? Because in the classroom it stays in the classroom. But but who how Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: do you do that at home? So you have to create a story about that, you have to make it manageable for yourself, because if you don't do that, then you take the risk that yeah, it will that it doesn't work because children are going to the puppet all the time, especially in the in in in the beginning. So you have to explore what's working and what's not and and what's not working you have to tweak sometimes but for all for everybody who works with children a puppet is a great tool because the in basic the technique is always the same And you apply it to the topics you need the puppet for or you want to use the puppet for, and you decide what topics that are. I I decided to use my puppet for almost everything, but I know teachers who all the who only use a puppet when a new book a new book come in or a new topic has to be introduced and that's fine too. If that works for you, it works for you. But by experimenting and exploring, you you you find you find what you like and what works for you and the children you work with. Jenni Awesome: So what's the difference? What do classrooms or learning spaces or therapy rooms what does it look like when the relationship and emotional safety are treated as prerequisites for learning rather than extras that we do when we have extra time? Helen Meurs: Yeah, for me, emotions and creating safety and emotional learning are the basics always. Because if that isn't there, then I think that thinking is in danger, is something that is under stress and Yeah, I but I discovered with a puppet because that puppet was safety, brought safety, was that the results of my children were were way better because they felt safe. They liked it to come to school. They often asked me, Miss Helen, when are we started to learn? Because they learned from their older siblings. That learning wasn't that much fun. And what we did was fun. So it could it couldn't be learning because we had so much fun together. And fun was never my goal, but it was it was just it just happened. It just happened because with a puppet and with all the input from children, everything can just happen sometimes. A child said, I have a new song, and then my puppet says, I want to hear. then we started singing. And if I felt like yeah, there is a lot of tension in my group now, then my puppet could could say, Hey, I have a plan, let's stomp together, or let's clap together, or let's jump for a few moments. And then that tension was gone. it was more organic and for that learning went better. Children had better results because of that. And when I hear people in education or early childhood education now then I think okay, I hear a lot of behavior now. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: That is worrying me, and I have never heard someone say I use a puppet. So every time I think, what would happen if you started using a puppet to create that first layer? Because I think it's that emotional part and that emotional regulation part is that first layer that children need. To start learning and that there that behavioral part is in too. So yeah, I hope that a lot of teachers and homeschooling parents and professionals want to explore what a puppet can change. Because what I have seen, and in the and for the people that I have trained, they all say the same: that puppet made a very huge difference, not only for The children, but also for me. I became a different kind of educator. I started looking at children in a different way. I am more I'm calmer now. I'm more looking from the child's perspective. that is inherent to a puppet, you you start looking at the child's perspective and you start thinking from that child's perspective and then yeah then things change. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, What is that how would you describe that level of safety that the third person, the puppet brings to a child, to a classroom, to a conversation? Helen Meurs: What do you mean by that? Jenni Awesome: So when we're talking about the fact that this this puppet helps to cause and create that safety, what is this puppet bringing in? What is that safety that it's providing to the kid? What what what does that look like? What does it feel like? How does it change the relationships in in a in a conversation? Helen Meurs: Yeah, what the puppet does differently from me is that the puppet has the perspective of a friend. So it's always on the child's side side. It's there's no right or wrong, there's only curiosity, and in the in all the reactions of the puppet towards the child. it doesn't come with solutions right away. It it's it just wants to know, it's just curious what happened here and it doesn't judge. And that are the criteria that are that are making the child open up, making the child relax, and that is what I see the moment that my puppet comes in. I see children do this. They relax! They relax, I know you. Sometimes thumbs go into their mouth and yeah children just relax. They think I know you, I know I can say everything to you. You will not judge me and what you what I say to you stays between you and me. And what it asks for me is not to interfere and just Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: be there, not interfere and just Observe, I am the puppet at that moment. And nothing more, nothing more or less. And that is our that is the biggest challenge when it comes to working with a puppet. Not to interfere, not to say, hey, I don't like it, what you are saying now. Hey, I don't like that. I think that you, and every time that I feel that I want to say that, then something in me said no. No, don't interfere. Let it go. Just listen. And by so the puppet is doing the work. The puppet is doing that safety work, and what it what it shows the child is whatever you say, it's safe. It doesn't have any consequences because that is what it asks from me. When a child says something to the puppet that would have consequences when it when the child had said it to me. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: Then there will not be a consequence because the child is not telling it to me, it's telling it to the puppet, and the puppet doesn't have consequences. So that is that is always what's happening, and that makes it sometimes a bit tricky for ourselves too, because sometimes children tell something to your puppet that you think, okay, I will act, I will act on this. I feel I want to act on this, and you can't because the child didn't say it to you, it said it to the puppet, and then you need to work around that. Then your puppet can do the can say things to the child to make the child confess to you too. And if the child says no, then you know, you still know that the child did that, and you need Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: to find a way to Do something with it or not. So that is that is the tricky part with with a puppet that it can give you a dial a dilemma, and Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: but it gives you a lot of information too, and those dilemmas, in my case, there are always for me, there were always colleagues or people that I say, hey. The I heard the child say this to my puppet. my puppet asked the child to tell me. The child refused. So I officially don't know this. But this Jenni Awesome: Mm. Helen Meurs: is what's going on with this child. So can we what can we do Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Helen Meurs: with this? And so that information we had information that we otherwise wouldn't have. Jenni Awesome: Right. And what's resonating with me right now is that by using this puppet, it it gives you an insight into that next generation, into kind of that going back to our childhood and and really being able to see and be a part of it in a way that, you know, we can't easily because we've had all the stories, all the stuff put on us. And it helps to give us that insight into interacting with those kids. Yeah, that that's a huge that's a huge key, Helen Meurs: Yes. Jenni Awesome: a huge door to open. Helen Meurs: Yes, it gives a lot of understanding because often we see a child and a child acts and we have our assumptions and think okay, this is what's going on. And with a puppet in your hand, the guessing stops because you can Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Helen Meurs: ask, and you can you get information from the child itself itself, and often for me. My understanding of a child and also my feelings toward a child changed because I noticed by the information my puppet got that I was wrong, that I assumed things they were not right, and that I now with the information that I had understood the child better and could support the child better. So Yeah, I yeah, for me there were only advantages with with a puppet. Working with a puppet only gave me advantages and the children too. There are still children that I had in my class for twenty years ago that now still say, Hey, Miss Helen, congratulations! They were for that that Jenni Awesome: Awww. Helen Meurs: time and they are still they are still on my Facebook now. So Jenni Awesome: Aww, that's wonderful. Helen Meurs: Yeah, that's great. That's great. So I made a big impression on them and some of them even start using a puppet. Some of them became a teacher themselves and started using a puppet too because of what I did with a puppet when they are the when they were a kid and how they felt with that puppet as a kid. And yeah, I think that is the best compliment you can get. Jenni Awesome: Absolutely. So what do you have coming up for you next with your relational puppetry? What what do you have going on next? And how do people find you, contact you, learn about what you're doing? Helen Meurs: what's coming up next is what I will launch. I have courses, I have individual coaching too, so I can teach you all from how to start with a puppet to how you can use a puppet when you want to change behavior for a child for example. So for that I have all kinds of trainings and my next thing will be what I want to do because I see a lot of teachers struggle with how to handle children and yeah what how can we Teach children something. Just I see a lot of behavioral things, and I want more puppets in the classroom. I wanted that that in the Netherlands, and now I want it for the rest of the world. So, what I what I have planned is to create a bundle with a lot of language activities, a lot of very simple activities that we can do, that you can do with a puppet. And I will tell you how to do that. So I will learn you how to start how to introduce your puppet and also what can your puppet do next what how can he come up with an activity around rhyming how how can he come up with an activity about traffic signs how can he come up with an activity about numbers all kinds of different topics angles questions things That you can use in your classroom by and that helps you create that relationship between the child and the puppet. So it helps you work with the puppet, it helps grow the relationship. And my goal is to help you start using that puppet as your tool consistently. Because when you use it consistently, then then the impact is very big. And if you Know how to do it, it's like driving a car. If you have learned it, you can do it again and again and again and again, and you don't need me anymore. But I really think that that puppet makes the difference. But for a lot of child professionals, working with a puppet is something that they say, well, not me, I am not that type. And with this particular product, I want to show you, yes. You are the type because I wasn't the type either, and you are the type, and it is a way, a different way into the world of the child, a very effective way, and I want you to start using it for yourself and for the child, but mostly for the ch for yourself, because I don't want you to lose your motivation for this For this profession, I am a teacher. I still am a teacher, even I'm not working in a classroom anymore. But in my heart, I am a teacher. I love that profession. I have chosen for that profession from my heart, and I will choose it again and again and again because I still think this is the best profession in the world. And it is yeah, we need children, we need people. Like us, people who are willing to be a bit c uncomfortable sometimes. So Jenni Awesome: yeah. Helen Meurs: so if you feel like yes, I I want to learn this then I am your woman. I want to help you to get there because it's not rocket science, it's all it's it's it's mostly overcoming things. that are that will happen in when you start working with the puppet but I know the answers I know how to react on that and I know that if you are through that first part then you will use the puppet again and again and again and again so that is my goal for you and I am the one who will help you with that. So that is my next big project and if you want a course a workshop a training yeah it's all possible but let's my biggest my bigger call goal is to for the for the upcoming year is to help 10,000 teachers people in early childhood education to start using a Puppet consistent Jenni Awesome: I love that. And I totally see it happening. I see it for you already. That's amazing. Helen Meurs: Yeah, so that is what I want for you, and all because I know what the impact of a puppet is, and I want it for everyone, and especially and that's the reason why I started as a trainer. when I am a teacher, I have 30 children in my classroom, and the impact I have on them is huge. I will not that that's that's absolutely true. But If I can train 10,000 teachers, then it is an oil slick, then I can affect way more children, and that's the reason why I started as a trainer instead of keep teaching myself. But I still miss children, I still miss that circle time, I still miss the fun that you can have with with children so. I want to help you. This is my profession, I love it, and I want you to keep loving your profession too. Jenni Awesome: I love that. All right, Helen, I have my last question for you. This is my last question that I ask everyone because it gets to the heart of why we do this work. If you had the opportunity to change one thing in education that would have the greatest positive impact on the next generation, what would it be? Helen Meurs: that is a beautiful question. Yeah, what I think that I would like to what I would like to happen for a lot of children It's that we see them, especially the young children, that we start seeing them. as not many ours, not mini uses, that that we see children like they are, like we start seeing them as children, as unique individu in individuals who all need their own who all who all have their own needs. And I think that when we start Seeing children like that. Yeah, that that will make a huge shift already. So it's not about us, it's about them and what they need. Jenni Awesome: That is beautifully said. It it is about the children. It's not about us. It's about them and what they need moving forward to make the bigger impact on the next generation after them too. Helen Meurs: Yes, yes. Yes. So so yeah, we are we are there to help them thrive so they can grow up be and become big and meaningful themselves. So that is our I think that is our that is what we are doing with what we are doing. My profession is all about how can I help children Grow. How can I help children open up? How can I help children participate? Because if they participate, they can grow and they can become who they are meant to be. And that is what I want for our children, because that is in our hands. Jenni Awesome: Yes it is. Well, Helen, we're just about on time. Is there anything you wanted to discuss that we didn't get to cover? Helen Meurs: we have talked about a lot. Yes, I am very curious what drove you if I may ask, what drove Jenni Awesome: Sure. Helen Meurs: you to create this post pop podcast? Jenni Awesome: Yeah, so what drove me to create this podcast is that I I have a natural, a God gifted talent to teach, to facilitate. I am able to create those spaces for people to share their voice, to share their vision, to share their stories. And when I was a little girl, my dad always wanted me to have my own television show. and to Helen Meurs: yeah, yeah. Jenni Awesome: to teach people. And as I've gone through my life, I recognize that my greater impact is on supporting those who do the work of supporting and teaching our children. And so the more teachers, educators, principals, parents that I can support and impact, the greater reach I have on supporting the next generation of our children. And so that is why I created this podcast. Helen Meurs: Yeah, so we are a bit similar in that. My and I would be Jenni Awesome: Very much so. Helen Meurs: yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. And I I think that it's, you know, what I'm recognizing through opening this door and creating this podcast is we do have that gap out there where we have the answers. We know what needs to happen to support our children to have the greatest impact on the next generation and, you know, for lack of better terms, change or save our world. We just Helen Meurs: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: need the avenue to make that happen to get those voices out there. And so that's what I'm I'm working to fill that gap. Helen Meurs: Yeah, yeah, it it it remembers me on I was I was I was recording a f a few videos this week and in one I I I said when a child doesn't join in, it can be very frustrating, but it doesn't mean that we are powerless. There are ways we can change the conditions, and what I did with a puppet is changed the quality of the of the way in. I changed the condition in the relationship. I changed the relationship from a relationship with me to a relationship with a puppet that felt safer. And that is there is it's just a tweak of your mind. It is very it's very s it's a very small shift what Tony Robbins often Says with that two millimeter shift, it's just a very small tweak with a huge impact with a very different result. And every time that something like that happens, then I think, Well, this is great because that gives us something we can do. So we don't have to be that we can change the situation, we can change our own situation, and we can change the situation. of the children that are that we work for. yeah, that's huge. That makes me very Jenni Awesome: Yeah, and Helen Meurs: grateful. Yeah. Jenni Awesome: yep. And we are out there doing the work and and watching the results as we see our children grow and change and those little inches, millimeters, degrees of change have a bigger impact. It and again it's it's a consistency. It's doing a little bit consistently every single day. That one percent better every day will get us where we're trying to go. Helen Meurs: Yeah, and it makes a difference. I remember one child. I will end the story with this particular child. One child, and he had he had a brain damage when he was born, and everybody says, Okay, this is a special education kit, he will never be a very smart ass, and now he is 26 and he has his own business, he's doing very well. He is in IT and I'm so proud because because everybody was wrong. Everybody was wrong. So yeah. Just give Jenni Awesome: And again, it's it's you putting the change, put being the hope for our our children, for our teachers, for the next generation, as your grandmother was the hope for you. Helen Meurs: that is something that I will pass keep passing on. We all can make a huge difference and if everybody has someone like us in their lives, then Jenni Awesome: Yes. Helen Meurs: then there's hope. There's hope because Jenni Awesome: Yes. Helen Meurs: we can change the world. Jenni Awesome: Yes, we can. Well, Helen, it was a wonderful conversation with you. I appreciate our time together. Thank you so much. And thank you for tuning in to the Jenni Awesome podcast. We'll see you again next time.