Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 427: From Pills to Pictures: Cynthia Hill’s Unlikely Path to Documentary Filmmaking

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BPS 427: From Pills to Pictures: Cynthia Hill’s Unlikely Path to Documentary Filmmaking · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number four twenty seven.
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  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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  Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullets.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: My next guest is a filmmaker from North Carolina. Her
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: TV series As Chef's Life is now in its fifth season.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: The HBO documentary Private Violence and PBS documentary Tobacco Money
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Feeds My Family are just two of the credits to
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: under her belt. Her current project is at eight part
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: docuseriies Road to Race Day, which follows Hendricks Motorsports, the
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: most winning team in professional stock car history, and it's
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  Speaker 3: all going to be about this twenty seventeen NASCAR season.
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  Speaker 3: And she also teamed up with Peter Berg's film forty
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  Speaker 3: five to sell this thing to Complex Networks, which is unbelievable.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to talk all about how she did all
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: that good stuff with guests Cynthia Hill.
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  Speaker 5: It's easy to access the equipment. There's not that hurdle
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: of it just being too expensive for people to access.
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: I mean, you can shoot a film on your iPhone now,
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: so if you really have a story to tell, you
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: can pretty much tell it no matter what your socioeconomic
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: situation is, which means that there are a lot more
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: people out there telling stories. And again, it's still trying
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: to get the stories out there that I think probably
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: is the biggest hurdle. Not necessarily making it, but getting
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: in out there to the masses still becomes a bit
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: of a hurdle.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, very very true. And that's something also we
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: touch upon the podcast. But you know, before you and
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: I talked about you know, distribution stuff like that, which
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: I'm actually very interested in hearing your point of view with.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, you know, Cynthia, how you got
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: involved in the film industry. You know, so the question
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  Speaker 3: I have to start with is did you go to
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: film school? Cynthia.
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: I did not go to the film school. I went
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: to pharmacy school. So the natural logical transition or the
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: next path from pharmacy school is filmmaking, right, It's you know,
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  Speaker 5: I grew up in a really remote area of eastern
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: North Carolina, you know, agricultural based economy. And the thing
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: that you would do if you went to college is
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: you would for a woman in particular, as you would
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: do nursing or teaching. So me, even going into pharmacy
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: school was kind of risky and and I really didn't
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: know what I wanted to do, to be honest with you,
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: I didn't have a particular calling. But I knew that
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  Speaker 5: the pharmacist in town made the most money, or seemed
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: to make the most money, and so I thought that
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  Speaker 5: at least he had one of the biggest houses. So
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: I thought, you know, if that's that was going to
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: be my profession. And then when you look at the
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: starting salaries of undergraduate degrees, especially when I was going
• 4:24
  Speaker 5: in the late eighties, the pharmacist was number one. And
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: so I just was ready to get out of a
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: poor town and make some money. And so I was
• 4:33
  Speaker 5: going to be a pharmacist. But that was not what
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  Speaker 5: was in store for me.
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  Speaker 3: You know, you mentioned about the link between pharmacists and filmmaker,
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  Speaker 3: and I was and you know what, I can actually
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: see it, you know, because you know, I've known some
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: people who've gone in the in the midfield, and they've
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: gone right into filmmaking. I actually had a friend of
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: mine who was a spinal surgeon, and he was in
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: the morning before surgery. He sat at his kitchen table
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: and he was writing a TV pilot and.
• 5:05
  Speaker 6: Basically, yeah, it's surprising that right brain, left brain kind
• 5:11
  Speaker 6: of thing, and the healthcare profession I think is more
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: maybe artistic then we know, or at least maybe some
• 5:19
  Speaker 6: of the folks that are in it maybe so, I
• 5:21
  Speaker 6: don't know, but for me, it was definitely a strange
• 5:25
  Speaker 6: kind of diversion when it happened.
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  Speaker 5: But I wasn't necessarily the best pharmacy student. I wasn't
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: necessarily engaged, but you know, I was out there. I
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: was looking for something, and I met these folks working
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: on this TV show. They were traveling to Chapel Hill.
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: I went to UNC Chapel Hill and they were doing
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: this accident reconstruction show that was that type of show
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: that was really popular in the early nineties. And it
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  Speaker 5: just seems so fascinating and way more fascinating than being
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  Speaker 5: in a pharmacy accounting pills all day long. So I thought,
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm gonna hang out with these people, and
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  Speaker 5: I ended up going out to LA because I made
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: some good friends and spending some time in LA and
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: I would just hang out with these people. And storytelling
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  Speaker 5: was not necessarily something that I thought that I was
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: good at, because I was not a good writer. But
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: if you're in the South, storytelling is just ingrained in
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  Speaker 5: you because you hear your grandmama, your granddaddy, everybody tells stories,
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  Speaker 5: and so you're just it's just a part of who
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  Speaker 5: you are. And so I had this knack for telling
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  Speaker 5: stories that I did not know was there because I
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: was just driven into math and science because I was
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: obviously good at those things. And I found this whole
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  Speaker 5: world that really was intriguing. And I came back to
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  Speaker 5: pharmacy school the next year and for every project I
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: could possibly do papers, presentations, I would make videos for
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  Speaker 5: it instead of actually doing the thing I was supposed
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  Speaker 5: to do. And for my rotation when I was working
• 7:06
  Speaker 5: in different locations, like I had a retail rotation, and
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: instead of doing a paper which you were supposed to do,
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  Speaker 5: I made two commercials for the pharmacy for a local cable.
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  Speaker 5: So I found my niche in pharmacy school in this
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  Speaker 5: really strange sort of way, and the dean of the
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  Speaker 5: pharmacy school pulled me aside and was like, Cynthia, you're
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  Speaker 5: not exactly the best pharmacy student, but you got something,
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  Speaker 5: you got some talent here, and I want to try
• 7:36
  Speaker 5: to help you. And so he encouraged me to go
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: to graduate school at Auburn University in the pharmacy administration department,
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: which sounds like another kind of strange thing, but they
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  Speaker 5: had a production studio in the graduate school there, and
• 7:52
  Speaker 5: any communications department would have salivated at the equipment that
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: we had access to, but because we had access to
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: pharmaceutical money, we had all this equipment, and they were
• 8:04
  Speaker 5: doing this health education media and they were one of
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: the first schools, especially pharmacy school, that was getting into
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: interactive healthcare. And so I found a surprising home there
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: and another sort of entree into deeper into the television world.
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: And I did this study with Primetime Live in New
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: York City, where we, as the pharmacy school, took the
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: study component of medication dispensing errors and we helped Primetime
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  Speaker 5: Live do an undercover report on pharmacists making dispensing mistakes.
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  Speaker 5: And so I flew up to New York and spent
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  Speaker 5: a lot of time up there, and I became the
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  Speaker 5: undercover shopper because I could control the medication, and I
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: became a part of that study. And then after that
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  Speaker 5: I was just really completely just spoiled. I was not
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  Speaker 5: going to end up in a pharmacy accounting pills after that.
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  Speaker 5: So then I had to figure out how to become
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  Speaker 5: a filmmaker.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: I was going to ask you when you were in
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  Speaker 3: the mystery shop, or if you had like a hidden
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: camera somewhere or something.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: I had somebody that was behind me with a camera.
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: I was mined. And then I had my companion had
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: a camera in his wig or in his hat, depending
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: on what set up we were using that day. So
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: it was this little girl from this rural town in
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: eastern North Carolina was not in eastern North Carolina anymore.
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: It was rather funny.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: I imagine those there's hard copy or thre's twenty twenty
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: things where they would have those hidden cameras, and you know,
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: and again that's sort of like now, how everything's changed.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: You know, cameras have become so miniaturized.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: You know, you can have your phone out and that's
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: a camera. You have these little spy cameras that I
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: see sometimes online. Uh you know, cause imagine when you
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: when you shot that was it? When was it one
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: of those big sort of like mini DV cameras or
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: or something or something different. Well, it had a.
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: Big pack, so you had a backpack, but the lens
• 10:18
  Speaker 5: like he was able to bring it up into his
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: wig or his hat, so it was easier to hide.
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: But it was definitely a much larger rig than what
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: you would find today.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: So and you know that that's where I imagine there
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: had to be a lot of like creativity, a lot
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: of ingenuity to hide that, you know what I mean?
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: So, uh, yeah, for sure.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: So when you were talking about storytelling, I mean just
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: to sort of take a step back, I mean you
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: were talking about growing up and in the South and
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: and you uh and you were you heard stories from
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: you know, your your grandmother. What were some of the
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: things that you like really stuck out with you, like
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: in terms of story I mean, was it was it
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: maybe how a person was telling it, or maybe what
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: was it some of the characters involved? I mean, because
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: I imagine a lot of that is what really sort
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: of molded your, uh, your way of storytelling, that that
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: you for when you make your own projects.
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's definitely. There are a lot of characters in
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: the South, so I gravitate to eccentric personalities. I think too,
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: It's that's one thing that you know, being in the South,
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: you're never short of somebody who's really interesting. You know,
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: they're all around you. And I think too, like my
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: my grandma's brother, uncle James, he was always good for
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: stories and they're always long and elaborate, and I think
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: I maybe inherited a bit of that and it takes
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: you a while to get to the point, but they're
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: always really good stories. And I have sort of this
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: this problem of ending stories. My first film that I made, Uh,
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: one of the my favorite compliments, I guess you could say,
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: is from Da Penny Baker. He said he was using
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: it in his classroom, but he's like, it's a really
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: good film with all of its three endings. So it's like, yeah,
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: I know what you're saying. So actually ending something is
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: difficult for me, you know, wrapping it up and coming
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: to a close, you know, because there's always something else
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: you can say that, you know, you helps make your point.
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: So trying to get it all in there has been
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: a challenge for me and something that has taken me
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: a while to to perfect, which I still haven't. But
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: you know, being able to concisely tell a story without
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: rambling on is a bit difficult for Southerners.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: I think that's fine, Cynthia. I mean, did you see
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. I mean
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: that had a lot of that had like seven different endings,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: you know that just.
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: No, I remember being to the best of them with
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: my endings, my multiple endings.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I remember being in the theater with that movie and
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: people were like, oh is that it? Oh no, there's more,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: and then they kept getting up and down. I was
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: it was like either this either either there was something,
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: this was a unique way of storytelling, or Peter Jackson
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: was just trolling everybody. Uh you know, but uh, but
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: you know where he.
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: Is in his career. I mean, he can keep going
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: if he's got something else to say, So I think
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: that that's kind of it too. You know, you have
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: the luxury at certain at a certain point where you
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: know you can keep telling the story you want to tell.
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: But I didn't that with my first film, even though
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: I thought I did. So yeah, and I.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: Want to, you know, get into into talking about all
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: your films too, And I just want to touch one
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: more thing about storytelling, you know, because I love hearing
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: like all the different unique point of views and everything
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: about storytelling. And you know, there was a movie that
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: was out recently I didn't see. I think it was
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: maybe out a year or two ago, called Blue Ruin,
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: and the tagline really stuck out to me because I
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: think it was it was something along the lines of
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: a Southern revenge tale or the Southern Gothic revenge tale.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: And I sort of kind of, you know, stuck with
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: me because I started to see a couple other articles,
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: you know about the the how the the Southern revenge
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: tale is kind of different. And and basically, you know,
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: as we tell stories, you know, you know, you tell
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: me it's a story, I tell you a story. There
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: there's all different components to them, and usually a story
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: is to reveal a transformation. You know, Usually there's you know,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: something inside you know, of the of the society, of
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: the culture, that the of ideals that they hold true
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: or ideals that they really value. So you know, and
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: it's different too because you know, for people, you know,
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of listeners who aren't from America
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: and they still don't understand. You know, America is huge.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, this country is absolutely huge, and we have
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: so many different, you know, different regions. You have the
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: East Coast, you have the West Coast, you have the Midwest,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: you have you know, the Northeast, you have this, you
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: have the South. I mean, all of these different ways
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: of telling stories, and you know, all these unique points
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: of view. So, you know, Cynthia, when when you take
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: your movies out, do you notice that, you know, you
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: tell the you know different, do you notice that maybe
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: your stories have that that sort of like unique vantage
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: point but it's something that's sort of there's like a
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: parallel that can be drawn through all all through all
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: different types of regions and stuff like that.
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. I mean I've never really looked
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: at it that way. I do feel very much like
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: it is southern. But what does southern mean? You know?
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: I think for me and when it comes to storytelling,
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: it's about character. It's about character, and it's also about
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: the small moments. And you know, I when I am
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: in the field now in working in the documentary medium,
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: it's you know, I don't necessarily have have a set agenda.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: You know, you go out to if you've got something
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: that you know, you're making a film about a certain
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: topic or whatever, you've got some agenda. You kind of
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: know what world you're entering. But I like to be
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: fluid in wait for things to happen and for characters
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: to reveal themselves, and moments that let the characters become
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: human just happen and unfold. And so I spend a
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: lot of time with nothing happening, waiting for those moments
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: to happen. And a lot of what I say, especially
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: when I work with new editors, is that what ends
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: up on the screen with me a lot of the
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: times are things that other I feel like other filmmakers
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: or maybe other editors, especially like in older kinds of
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: TV dot formats, where that stuff would end up on
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: the editing room floor typically. But I like those moments
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: that are subtle, that take the audience. It's a little
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: bit more time. Hey, you know, you've got to pay
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: closer attention to them and those things that are going
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: to build so that by the time I make my
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: point I have teased it out a long time and
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: so that it becomes even more meaningful to the audience
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: by the time you see that revealed. And so that's
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: what I'm doing when I'm in the field a lot
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: is just waiting for those moments. And when you're with
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: me and I work with new folks in the field,
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: they think I'm not doing anything because I look like
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: I'm not doing anything, but I'm listening and I'm playing,
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: paying close attention and waiting for that moment. And usually
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: that moment happens when everybody kind of lets their guard down,
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: or maybe you know, the moment after another moment is
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: usually the moment that I'm after. So it's kind of
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: it's hard to explain, but when you add all those
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: things together, it just really helps with it, you know,
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: it helps with the really building who those characters are
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: that you're with and those narratives because those small moments,
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: I feel like are they're really the important things that
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: are happening.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Oh and I see exactly what you mean too. It's
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: like a slow burn, you know, and rather than sort
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: of like the fast paced sort of MTV style of
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: sort of editing or you know, and honestly, I've seen
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: you know, that's good to have because I don't ever
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: want to see where filmmaking or anything becomes homogenized where
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: everybody shoots and edits and et cetera the same way.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: And you know, just just as we get started talking
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: about your career, Cynthia, you know, you mentioned how do
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: you go from pharmacist to filmmaker? So you know what
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: was what was this step that you took so that
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: way you said, Look, I'm not going to do pharmacy
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: tech work anymore. I'm going to do filmmaking full time.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: So you know what was that step that you took?
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: Well, until this year, I still was employed by Walmart
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: as a pharmacist, so I was canned unceremoniously as of late.
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: I'd only worked two days, so it was, uh, it
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: was coming. But it's I and just not that I
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: have I apologize up front. I have a tendency to
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: answer the question that I want to answer. So I'm
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: going going to backstep just a little bit. Pharmacy to
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: me gave me permission to experiment. It gave me that
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: solid foundation and that financial security that I needed to
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: take risks. And so I knew I could always go
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: and work as a pharmacist, So it allowed me to
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: not go and have to work on other people's projects
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: if I didn't want to. You know, I wasn't out
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: there using that creative side of my brain to you know,
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: do ad work or.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: You know, we'll be right back after a word from
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: our sponsor and now back to the show.
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: Do something that wasn't coming from inside of me in
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: that medium, So I could devote all of that energy
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: to working on what I wanted to work on. So
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: that's what I've always done, and it's also I mean,
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: it's been really great for me because I have a
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: very distinctive style and you know when you see something
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: that I work on. But the downfall is that I
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: do create my stuff kind of in a vacuum, and
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: I don't have a lot of mentors and stuff like
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: that because I've never worked for anybody else. I've always
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: just done what I wanted to do. But when I
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: first started out, you know, I had this one story
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: that was burning inside of me that I knew I
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: had to tell, and that was the story of tobacco
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: farming and growing up in the South and in this
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: region of the country. Tobacco was the one crop that
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: all farmers and families could rely on. And yes, it
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: kills people, but it also put sent a lot of
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: us to college and created opportunities that would not have
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: otherwise existed, and also kept small farms intact in the
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: South when when it was no longer possible or viable
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: with other commodities.
• 21:22
  Speaker 7: So I had this this this strange relationship with this
• 21:28
  Speaker 7: crop that kills people, but it also is something that
• 21:33
  Speaker 7: I had a lot of uh fondness for.
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: You know. It was a lot of memories with the
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: family working and it was very much a family kind
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: of business and operation where we would we would help
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: each other, you know, harvest the crop every summer. And
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: that's what I did up until I went to college.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: And so I knew that that was a story I
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: wanted to tell because I could see the demise of
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: that small family farm happening in front of my eyes,
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: and I had to tell that story. And so when
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: I first started out, it was like, I'm just going
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: to tell this story. I didn't consider myself an artist
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: or a filmmaker. I just knew I was going to
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: do that. So I was going to raise ten thousand
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: dollars and film for one season, and that was going
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: to be my film. But instead I filmed for over
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: three years and raised over one hundred thousand dollars, and
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: it took me another two years to edit the film,
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: to make my first film, and I still couldn't call
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: myself a filmmaker after that. I didn't have enough confidence
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: in myself. But that began my path, and each time
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: I start a film, I swear I'm going to make
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: it in less than five years. But I still have
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: a hard time making a film in less than five years.
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: So maybe one day.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: So let me ask you said that when you decided
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: to raise that much money, you know that that's sort
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: of like the million dollar question. No plan intended for
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: a lot of filmmakers is they always say, you know,
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: what steps do you go to raise funds? Some people
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: say it's crowdfunding, some people will say it's private equity.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: So you know, what what methods did you use to
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: to to sort of, you know, raise these funds to
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: help make your documentary.
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, for this one, it was all foundation money and
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: the first two grant proposals I sent out were funded,
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: which is completely one unheard of. I had already shot
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: some so I had something to show, you know, So
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: I was I was able to show proof of concept
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: and what I was trying to do. But if I
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: had not had that kind of success out of the gate,
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: I probably wouldn't have continued because it would have been
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: just too depressing. But then after those first two I
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: probably probably the next twenty five were not funded. So,
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: you know it, this is really one of those things
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: where it's it's so difficult and there's no magic answer
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: to it. You know, there's one of those. If it's
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: a social issue film, you know, you can try the
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: foundation route. If it's you know, you can try the
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: crowdfunding route. And I've done that twice now and I
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: never want to do that again. It says it's a
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: special kind of torture crowdfunding, or at least you know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: the process of actually, you know, during the campaign is torture.
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: And then it's even more torture when you have to
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: fulfill all this bullshit that you've promised people during your
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: crowdfunding campaign. You actually have to make good on all
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: these promises. So it's really, you know, there's no magic answer.
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: The equity thing. I still have a hard time with that,
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: I've had this one really amazing woman who's been trying
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: to give me money for this project that I'm currently
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: working on, and I I don't I don't know how
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: I feel about that, because you know, once you have
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: somebody that's invested in you, then it's like you feel
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: like you got to make money and too you feel
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: like you got somebody looking over your shoulder. And so
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: I'm contemplating that now. You know, I'm to a point
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: in my career that I need to be able to
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: do that. You know, this last project that we're the
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: I have a development deal with HBO and some development
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: money from Sundance for it, but I need to be
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: able to have some additional funds in place before I
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: can go back to try to show what the project
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: really is. And so what do I do in the meantime,
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: Because it's not really a social issue film that I
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: can go out and do the foundation route again. So
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: I'm sitting here thinking I really need to call that
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: lady back and take her money. It's hard, h this
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: whole legal thing with you know, sale securities, bloody blah
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: blah blah. But yeah, it's you know, I feel like
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: I've got to grow up and and you know, this
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: is this is my business now, this is this is
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: how I make a living. I am to that point
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: where I actually can say that, and I have a
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: lot of folks that now work with me or for me,
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: and you know, I've got to also be mindful of
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: their their well being too, not just my own.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, you know, that's
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: something we really talk a lot about on this podcast,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: is you know, the whole legal aspect of taking people's money. Uh,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: you know, private equity, crowdfunding, all those different routes and uh,
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: you know, and I've heard everything from hey we did
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: it for free, by uh. I mean that's what I
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: did too. You know, I didn't go to film school.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: My first student film was me making a feature film
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: and we borrowed every set, everything, everything was all borrowed.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Uh you know, don't you know a friend of mine
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: had a house we could shoot in, and we've had
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: that all the way to you know, very expensive movies
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: on here. So you know, it's just always interesting to
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: hear you know everything, uh, you know, all those two
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: extremes and everything between, and you know, as we talk
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: more about you know, making documentaries and everything else. You know,
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: making it into a living is something special, Cynthia, because
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: you know that that takes a lot of hard work,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: It takes a lot of talent, it takes a lot
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: of patience, uh, you know, and and a lot of times,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: you know, you know, filmmakers maybe make one film or
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: two and they get kind of burned out from the
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: whole process.
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: Well that's it's true, you know, And I think I'm
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: struggling with that right now. You know, is it a
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: business or is it still a passion? You know, so
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: trying to straddle still wanting to do this work because
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: it's something that you know, burns inside of me versus
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: like just making content because I've got a lot of
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: mouths to feed and I don't want to be in
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: that place, you know. And it's new for me to
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: manage people, you know, because I I have finally accepted
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: that I'm an artist that comes with artist tendencies, which
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: means that I'm not great at necessarily manage people. And
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: so but you know, when you have this kind of
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: operation where we have right now, where this past year
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: we produced an eight part series that were hour long.
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: Each was an hour long, so eight hours of that
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: and then another ten part half hour series. We're producing
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: a lot of content and it takes a lot of
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: people to pull that off. And you know, we're doing
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: this in a part of the country that doesn't have
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: the infrastructure and you know, the the depth of talent
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: and stuff. So you know, we're training our own where
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: we're making it work even when the odds are completely
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: against us. And that in and of itself, to me
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: is something that I'm really proud of and proud of
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: the team that we have in place for that. But
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: then how do you keep that going? You know, how
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: much of inside of me has to come out to
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: keep that that those creative juices going, because so far
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: that those stories are all coming from me, you know,
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: like just the creative part of it, you know, putting
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: it together, and that is really that's hard to keep
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: that going and to fill that burden of that, And
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: then like, is that really what I want to do
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: moving forward? Or do I want to like quit all
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: that and go back and you know, make a narrative film,
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: which I've been contemplating for a long time. So you know,
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: it's I'm struggling a bit. I don't know if it's
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: midlife bullshit mess. But yeah, you know, you the success
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: is great, but it's also like, is this really what
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: I want? And you know, are we are we happy?
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: Lord, I'm in therapy.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this podcast is like therapy for a lot of people,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: myself included. But uh no, I'm just joking, cynthy, but no,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: it's this is what it is. It's a discussion, you know,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: uh and that's you know, some of the things that
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: we discussed on this podcast is stuff you don't hear
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: other you know, any other place. And what I mean
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: by that is, you know, the things that affect filmmakers,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: things that they go through, stuff like that. You know,
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: too many podcasts, too many articles. They they paint either
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: a rosy picture or they paint this very bleak picture,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: and and it's really, you know, it's not really one
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: of the other. It's usually in between, you know, the
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: ones that paint the rosy picture like oh, yeah, I
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: submitted to Sundance and we wanted ten billion dollars and
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: then we're all rich now, and the and the and
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: the the bleak pictures like oh, I try to submit
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: the Sun Dance, that's all bullshit. I couldn't get any
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: other film festival. There was all bullshit. And I thought
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: up on YouTube and nobody watched it. And now I'm,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: you know, one hundred grand in the hole and I
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: hate my life and you know, so it's kind of like,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: you know, trying to find this happy medium because I
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: believe me. I you know, when I started doing this,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: even before I started doing this podcast, I I met
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: so many different people doing so many different things, on
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: so many different film sets, and I heard so many
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: different stories about successes and failures, successes and failures. And
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: that's why I wanted to do this podcast, you know,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: because it's it's I've noticed a common thread among a
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: lot of filmmakers. That's why I started this podcast. So,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: you know, when you made your tobacco documentary about you know,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: obviously it's focused on the South, you know, but you
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: you kept going and you turned it into other projects.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: So after after your your the documentary aired, you know
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: and was completed, you know what, you know, what what
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: was your next step in continuing your filmography?
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: Well, I was helping work on another film at the
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: same time. Some other film makers here in Durham, and
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: so it's I was. That was February one, which was
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: about the Greensboro lunch counter sit in. So I was
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: able to see a little bit about, you know what
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: else could be opportunities. And then this story came along
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: as I was finishing up the tobacco film that was
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: about the farm workers that were coming from Mexico. And
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: can we start that over again because I feel like
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: the February one thing is kind of like left field.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Sure, absolutely, we were talking.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll just tell about the tobacco. I mean, I'll
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: ask me the question again.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Sure, sure, no problem. So so you know, you kept
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: on going. So you know, after you made your tobacco documentary,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: you know what was the next step, do you you
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: you made to continue your filmography?
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: Well, when I was finishing up tobacco money fees my family,
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: one of the farmers that I had been profiling was
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: getting farm workers from Mexico in this guest worker program.
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: And he got farm workers that We're being bussed directly
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: from Mexico straight to his farm. They would open the
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: door from the bus and they would get out on
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: his farm in North Carolina. And I was like, WHOA,
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: what the hell is that? You know, when I was
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: growing up, I remember when we had the first Mexicans
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: that showed up in our community to harvest cucumbers, and
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: that was the first time we locked our doors because
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: the Mexicans were in town. And so there's this thing
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: with we don't want foreigners in our communities doing our work,
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: is taking our work, But then we are actively busting
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: folks in to do the work that we don't want
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: to do. And I thought, oh my goodness, this is
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: so fascinating. And so then I spent the next two
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: years filming a story of these farm workers that were
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: coming from Mexico in this guestworker program. I was able
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: to find a farm in North Carolina that would let
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: me film, and that in and of itself was a
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: huge hurdle because there was so much suspicion about this
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: program and folks trying to do this gotcha kind of
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: filmmaking at the time and still to this day. And
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: so getting a farmer comfortable with us being there to
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: do a story about farm workers was really was not
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: an easy feed. But when we finally latched onto this
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: one guy who was willing to do willing to let
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: us stay on his farm.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: So eye opening to spend a whole season with this
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: one farm worker. Several but we ended up going back
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: home with two of them, and we took that bus
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: ride back home to Mexico on bus after bus to
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: the back of a pickup truck to get to his
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: home back in his village in Durango, Mexico. And you know,
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: it's not that they know, especially for this guest worker program,
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: they're not trying to move to to the US. You know,
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: they were here to make money to bring back home.
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: And you know, I'd always hear these things about the
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: excuses for the horrible living conditions that the farm workers
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: had to live in, about how so much better than
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: what they got back in Mexico, and that how we're
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: you know, we're doing them so to favor. But then
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: when we got back to his home in Mexico, he
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: lived in this beautiful villa that it was very modest
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: but had a lot of outdoor space, and it was
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: on the side you could see his cows often the horizon,
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: and and it's just like these are people who want
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: to support their family, just like these farmers want to
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: support their families, and it was important for me to
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: after telling the farmers story, to also tell that farm
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: worker story. And I couldn't not do that, you know.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: I felt like it was a disservice just to tell
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: the farmer's story without completing that that story. So that
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: was my second film.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: So when when you released that, that film you sort
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: of back to back with you tell the farmers, you know,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: the farmer's story, you tell the workers story. You know.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: How was that Did that change any perceptions?
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: You hope that it does. I mean, I think that
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: the folks that that saw it, you know, that's really
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: the key is like getting folks to watch stuff. And
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: I think the one of the main accomplishments for me
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: and that with that film was that we had this
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: one screening where we had farm workers and farmers in
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: the room at the same time, watching the film at
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: the same time, and it was it was kind of funny,
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: like there would be moments where they would laugh at
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: the same things and they could see the humanity in
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: each other. And to me, that's what it was about,
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: you know, trying to bridge that gap. And I feel
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: like I do that quite a bit as trying to
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: bridge that gap. Of understanding. And you know, I'm not
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: I don't consider myself an activist filmmaker per se, but
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: I do tend to tackle topics that are important and
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: or at least I like to, but I like to
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: do it with story and really about understanding the you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: the human condition and you know, really getting into characters
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: and understanding the plight and trying to walk in their
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: shoes for a little bit.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's something that you know, a
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: lot of filmmakers have sort of missed, not all the filmmakers,
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: but producers and TV show owners. And you know, you
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: tune in because you want to see characters. You know,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: you see these characters and these sort of you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: predicaments and in you know, a couple episodes ago, I
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: interviewed Rna Sheer, and Randa Shear was you know, on
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: you the host of Usays Up All Night. And you know,
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: something I spoke to her about was to into in
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: today's sort of uh, you know, entertainment environment, a lot
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: of the people when they start putting money into things,
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: whether it be a TV show, you know, everything becomes
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: very mechanical. Now everything has an algorithm. Oh well, hey,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: you know what you say this script and don't deviate
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: from this script, and I think it really takes away
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: a lot of character, and it's more about like situations,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: if you know what I mean. So let's and I
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: think with documentaries especially, you have to have those characters.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: And I just wanted to touch on that topic because
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: it's so important anymore, you know, just finding films that
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: have characters in them that you know, people can relate to.
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's that's important. You know, you can
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: have somebody telling you all day long that about this
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: person's plight, or you can interview them about their their
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: own plight and they can tell you certain things. But
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: if you're with them and you experience it with them,
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: I think that's a whole other level of understanding. And that,
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: to me was was what was important about making The
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: Guestworker film was that, you know, I did not understand it.
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: You know, I drive by a field and I see
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: people picking my produce. But I go to the grocery
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: store and I buy it, you know, and I'm not
• 39:29
  Speaker 5: really thinking about them when I'm I'm going to Whole
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: Foods and buying my five dollars piece of lettuce, you know.
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: So It's was important for me to give them not
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: just the face, but to also tell part of their
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: story and let them tell their own story, not you know,
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: through interview, but to witness it with them, to be
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: a true witness of that that experience.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: And that's that's the kind of filmmaking that I like.
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: It's what I like to watch heavily. Interview interview driven
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: kinds of films don't usually do it for me. Every
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: now and then I'll say what I'm like, Okay, I
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: take it back. I'm okay with interviews, but typically that's
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: not what I want. I have this thing where I say,
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: show me, don't tell me. You can tell me all
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: day long, but if I see it and I feel
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: it and I'm witnessing it, it's going to have so
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: much more impact on me. And I feel like that's
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: what it is for an audience too.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're experiencing with it. I really like that because
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: you know, again, you know when when people try to
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: sort of force the sort of force the issue or
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: even make you know, you know, these these sit down
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: interview you know, TV shows or movies, they're taking away
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: the character. They're sort of just trying to sort of
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: make everything happen, you know, along these sort of beats.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: And again, you know that that's why, yeah, you know,
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: that's what's.
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: Felling it down to, you know, just the that topic
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: or that issue and trying to hit that home. And
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: and I spend a lot more time kind of beating
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: around the bush hoping that people see my subtle hints
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: at what the issue is.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: So I think that there's room for both kinds of storytelling.
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: It just as I prefer the kind that doesn't beat
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: you over tohead, you know, I prefer the kind that
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: takes me on a journey and lets me decide for myself.
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: And that's that's the kind of filmmaking I want to do,
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: is I want to take the viewer on a journey
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: and let them decide for themselves. Obviously, I have a
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: point of view, and so as I am laying out
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: the scenes and showing the audience that the moments that
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: I choose, I am, you know, obviously have a certain
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: point of view that's that they're watching. But I do
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: try to be very subtle in it, you know, even
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: if it's issue oriented and let the viewer decide for
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: themselves because I don't know what the hell I'm talking
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: about half the time.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Uh, it's the you know, I noticed on the clock
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: where we're we're starting to get a little pressed for time.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: So I wanted to make sure I asked you what
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: about one project, which is actually how we started talking,
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: which is your your actual your eight part series on
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: on NASCAR Motorsports. So I wanted to ask you how
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: how did you get involved, you know, with the with
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: the with the project.
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: Well, I have this short list of Southern things that
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: I would love to one day be able to film.
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: You know, it's I try to to stay in my region,
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: even if it's not necessarily Southern. Like my filmmaking, I
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: feel like my backyard is just as interesting as getting
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: on a plane and going somewhere else. So also I
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: I feel like I have permission to film once here too.
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't feel like I'm an Enarloper and
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: going in and trying to tell somebody else's story. So
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: you know, I try to stay based here in the South,
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: and so NASCAR has been on that list of things
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: that I would love to do, and for no other
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: reason that it's something that I grew up with. It
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: was very much a part of my family. My granddad
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: was a huge Richard Petti fan, and so every Sunday
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: we're watching a race, whether we wanted to or not.
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: And so I, you know, I wasn't a NASCAR fan
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: growing when I got when I became an adult, but
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: it still fascinated me. And also how people from outside
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: of the South perceived it and perceived the fan base
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: and the sport itself, like it's not really a sport,
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: and there's lots of things people say about stock car racing,
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: and so if you're gonna you know, I like to
• 43:55
  Speaker 5: admire myself in stuff that has a bit controversy, I
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: feel like sometimes and this was kind of one of
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: those things. But I wasn't in it for the controversy.
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: I just was wanting just to see that world from
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: the inside. And we just had the opportunity to approach
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: Hendrick Motorsports with the idea of coming in and doing,
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: you know, an inside look at it. And they are
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: really the giants in the sport. You know, they have
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: driving for them, Delenhart Junior, Jimmy Johnson who just won
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: the championship last year, Casey Kine and also Chase Elliott,
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: who's Bill Elliott's son, and he was getting into Jeff
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: Gordon's car because Jeff Jordon had just retired, and so
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: we wanted to enter the world with Chase because he
• 44:48
  Speaker 5: was he was new to the team and he just
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: turned twenty, and we thought it would be a really
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: interesting perspective starting the series with a newbie, and especially
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: one with that kind of pedigree. And surprisingly, Hendrick agreed.
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: And after the fact, I found out that they get
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: pitched a lot and never say yes. So I feel
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: really honored that they said yes. But I think it
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: was because I'm from the South. My ideas of what
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: I wanted to do and what I wanted to tell were,
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: you know, not any kind of again gotcha thing. I
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: just wanted to just go in. I wanted to embed
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: my team into their team and really see what it
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: was like to be, you know, in NASCAR and you know,
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: race every weekend. So I mean that's what we did.
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: We we filmed with them for six months, and we
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: filmed with all the drivers, not just Chase. They opened
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: the doors and said, hey, you want to film these
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: other drivers too, and We're like, oh yeah, so it was.
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: It was an amazing experience. You know. The unfortunate thing
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: is my ears are still ringing because it's so loud,
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: and but it's it was I hate this word and
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: I hate to even say it, but it was truly
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: unprecedented the access that they gave us. You know, they
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: they allowed us inside their facilities. NASCAR allowed us the
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: film at the race tracks with basically what we not
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: really telling us. You know, don't go there, don't go there,
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: and there are a few places we couldn't go. But
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: really we had the access that I didn't know that
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: we could have, and we had an amazing working relationship
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: with NASCAR and NASCAR Productions where we knew that we
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: would be able to get access to the race footage.
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: So we weren't always focused on trying to film the race,
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: but were you know, we were turning. We would focus
• 46:46
  Speaker 5: on the teams so that we could really see what
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: the inner workings are like and when something happens on
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: the track, what's the reaction of the team, and what's
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: the build up to the race and so, you know,
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: the races were important, but they just became just more
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: of a dramatic narrative tool for me to be able
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: to understand the pressure. So the outcome of the race
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: was less important because you know, we're not doing race coverage,
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: not sports coverage TV. We're really telling stories about people,
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: and you know, that's what we do. And so you know,
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: we focused on again on the characters and those small moments,
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: and I think what we were able to accomplish is
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: pretty unique, especially for that sport. I don't think you
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: ever see it really presented that way.
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was going to ask too if they actually
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: got pitched a lot, because I can I can imagine
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: the answer would have been yes, you know, just because
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: you know, whenever you're in that position, whenever you're like
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: the leader or you know, you're involved in the A
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: level h you know, kind of like you know how
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: in the NFL, every team just gets pitched unbelievably amount.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: You know, Hey do the you know, could we do
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: a documentary? Hey could we do this?
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: Uh?
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: You know, hey who you help out this charity? So
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: that's why, you know, I think you did have that
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: unique sort of way to sort of get your foot
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: in the door by saying I'm from the South and
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: you know, and I'm sure they wanted to see your
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: other to your other documentaries before they said yes, you know, yeah, and.
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: It was really nice. We got to the meeting and
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: the head of the marketing team, Uh, he had already
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: seen my last film that was on HBO and was
• 48:26
  Speaker 5: a huge fan of the television series that I direct,
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: colle A Chef's Life, and so he already knew my
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: style and he saw how our team operated and felt
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: really comfortable with what we were presenting and the ideas
• 48:43
  Speaker 5: that we came to the table, and he knew that
• 48:46
  Speaker 5: what I said when I was in that meeting was true.
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: You know that I was not you know, I wasn't
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: trying to get in to do another kind of story
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: because the body of work that we came in with
• 48:57
  Speaker 5: showed what we were trying to do, and you know,
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: it did open those doors. And so it does prove
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: that eventually things do get a little easier. Other things don't.
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: But that door opening definitely was much easier than I
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: had anticipated, and that was nice. You know that that
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: came at a time in my career where, you know,
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: I've been making films for twenty years now, and so
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: it's nice to finally say hey, you know it does
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: work out sometimes, Yeah.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: And I think you know, you're it did get easier
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: because you know, people can you start to build a
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: portfolio and you start to build a reputation, and I
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: think and that is key. You know something I always
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: say here on the podcast is your net worth is
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: your network or your network is your net worth? And basically,
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: you know, you were able to open those doors because
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: of your network. And it's it's all about you know,
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: being professional, you know, doing good work, you know, not
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: being crazy, you know, not being you know, because sometimes
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: you know, people get their foot in the door.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show, and.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: They shoot themselves in the foot. You know. It's it's
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: it's almost comical because a lot of filmmakers, you know,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: they get themselves in the door and then they just start,
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: you know, immediately start making all these mistakes, and you know,
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: it just it really compounds, you know, and that's why
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: you really want to make sure because I mean, now
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: after you've done this, I mean it's like, you know, hey, hey, Cynthia,
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: what was your last project?
• 50:29
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Hey, I worked with Hendrick Commotorsports, and you know, we
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: did this and this and this, and you know, I
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: mean that that's just that's huge, you know, that's absolutely huge.
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: We filmed with with Dale Junior, who everybody told me
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: that he would never wear a wireless mic, and we
• 50:43
  Speaker 5: you know, sometimes you would agree, you know. So we
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: spent really nice time with him, and that to me
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: is meaningful to be able to develop those kinds of
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: relationships and it is important. You know, the downside to
• 50:58
  Speaker 5: being in North Carolina it is that my network is
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: not extensive. I joke that I have a lot of
• 51:05
  Speaker 5: pig farmers in my network, which they're really important and
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: I appreciate them. But it's you know, it's it's difficult
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: because we are here. But you know, the benefits are
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: that I do have an extensive network here and the
• 51:22
  Speaker 5: folks here do trust do trust me, and and trust
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: the team that we have in place, and so when
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: we show up that does mean a lot.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, again you never know what door
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: is going to open, you know. And again I like
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: how you know you mentioned again where you were, because
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: you know, every everything's different again, everything has changed, which
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: sort of you know, brings us back to full circle,
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: which I was, which was what you know, we open
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: up the podcast with you could be a filmmaker now, Uh,
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: you know across the America and it's it's opened a
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: lot of doors, Cynthia. I know, we've actually just run
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: out of time. So where can people find you out onlinethea.
• 52:01
  Speaker 5: You made me or just my company name is Mark
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: Media m A r kay Media dot com. And The
• 52:12
  Speaker 5: Road to Ray Day, which is the NASCAR series, was
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: just released on the Complex Next Complex Network's platform Go
• 52:20
  Speaker 5: ninety and so it's currently streaming the next The last
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: episode is premiering tomorrow, so all the episodes will be
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: up after tomorrow. And my other films are somewhat harder
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: to fine. Private Violence, which was the last film with HBO.
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: That one I think you can find on Amazon and Hulu,
• 52:48
  Speaker 5: and A Chef's Life is on PBS. Season five is
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: premiering in October, so that one's still going strong.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So we got to talking, Cynthia, and we ran
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: out of time with because I was going to talk.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: I had notes to talk about, uh, you know, all
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: of your all of your work, and you know, we
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: just you know, one of those things right out of time.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: But but I'm going to link to everything in the
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: show notes everyone at Dave Bulls dot com. Twitter, it's
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: at dave Underscore Bullets, and I'm going to link to
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: all of Cynthia's social media as well, so you could
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: follow her and see all the really cool stuff that
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: she's up to.
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: Thanks Dave, I really appreciate it.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: Oh my pleasure, Cynthia. And if you ever want to
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: come back sometime we talk, you know, more about your
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: next projects and you know, and then the other projects
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: we didn't get a chance to talk about, let me know,
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: you know, and you know, I love to have you
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: back on Happy too.
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: It's fun. It is kind of like therapy. And maybe
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: just listen to that because I have a tendency not
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: to be PC, so maybe listen to the guest worker
• 53:48
  Speaker 5: stuff just to make sure I didn't say something too offensive,
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: because sometimes I say things that I don't know offensive
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: and they become offensive without me knowing it.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: So now it's all good. So everything's offensive nowadays.
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: That's true. It is true. It can be, but you know,
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: I think it's like for me, it's it's you know,
• 54:12
  Speaker 5: I we work really hard to be inclusive and the
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: team I have in place, you know, we've we've built
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: a diverse team, and we work with a lot of
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: women too, and so we we spend a lot of
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: time trying to tell stories that have meaning and beyond
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: just you know the meaning of my demographic.
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: So we try no and I and I I think
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: you do very well. And I honestly and uh, that's
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: why I wanted to have you on this podcast. And
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: again I want to link to everything of yours in
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: the show notes, and you know, people can check out
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: your work and uh, you know, I want to see
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: and obviously I hope you continue to move forward with
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: this and and you continue to uh to build that pilmography.
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: Thank you. I appreciate it. I hope so hopefully I
• 55:03
  Speaker 5: won't burn out.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: Don't go back to pharmacy. That's what I'm that's the
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: message of this whole podcast is, don't go back to pharmacy.
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: I don't know if I can anymore. I lost my job.
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: That's all right. I needed it. I needed that kicking
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: the butt.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right. It's like the old Roman army when
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: they got to a new country, they'd burn their boats.
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, this is it, you gotta yeah, there's no Yeah, Yeah, we're.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: Swimming Cynthia, Cynthia Hill, I want to say thank you
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: so much for coming on and I do wish you
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: the best of luck.
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: Thank you, thanks so much, Dave.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: For it slash for twenty seven. Thank you so much
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: for listening. Guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: I'll talk to you soon.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at bullet
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: Group Screenwriting dot tv.
• 56:08
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm