Latest / Ministry Minded / Christian Liberty, Church Life, and the Joy of Knowing God with Jason Alligood

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Christian Liberty, Church Life, and the Joy of Knowing God with Jason Alligood · Ministry Minded

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Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy ministries.
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SPEAKER_02: I am, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I'm the senior pastor here at Stillington Baptist Church in Paxanis,
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Pennsylvania.
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And this morning,
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I am so happy to be welcoming onto the show Jason Olegud.
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SPEAKER_02: Jason is a professor.
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He's a teacher both at Cedarville University and also at
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Midwestern Baptist
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SPEAKER_02: Theological Seminary.
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i actually just had him as my supervisor for a class my very
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last class by the way
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of seminary so it was good to learn under him but now is even
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also more of a
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privilege to have him on the show and we just got to chat about
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so many different
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important things talking about theology theology both for the
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academy but also
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SPEAKER_02: theology for the church why it's so important
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SPEAKER_02: Why should those who are in the pews,
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SPEAKER_02: but also those who are in the pulpit,
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SPEAKER_02: make a point to study theology deeply and study it broadly?
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SPEAKER_02: And so we talk about that at length.
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SPEAKER_02: We talk about some of the theological issues facing theology.
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the church today,
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and why studying theology is so important because of that very point.
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SPEAKER_02: So it was really good to catch up with him,
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SPEAKER_02: to talk with him,
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SPEAKER_02: to get to know him better,
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SPEAKER_02: and I hope you really enjoy this conversation.
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SPEAKER_02: I think it'll be really enlightening and encouraging,
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SPEAKER_02: and it was just really a blessing to talk to Jason.
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SPEAKER_02: So sit back,
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SPEAKER_02: enjoy this episode,
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SPEAKER_02: as Jason and I talk about theology in a broad spectrum of other stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: Enjoy.
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SPEAKER_02: Well, everyone, thanks for tuning in.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad to have Jason Olegood on the show today.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm really happy that he's here.
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SPEAKER_02: Just finished a seminary class with him as my supervisor,
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SPEAKER_02: so I'm happy that he's able to hop on the podcast with me.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's really good to see Jason.
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SPEAKER_02: Glad that we can make this happen.
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So why don't you just begin by just kind of introducing
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yourself and telling
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SPEAKER_02: everyone about yourself and kind of what keeps you busy these days.
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SPEAKER_03: Sure.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: So, man, great to be on the podcast.
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SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for having me.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_03: I'm currently the assistant and not the like the only one,
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but I'm an assistant professor of theology at Cedarville
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University in Cedarville,
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SPEAKER_03: Ohio.
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SPEAKER_03: And I'm married to Amber.
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SPEAKER_03: We've been married for nearly 28 years.
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We have three grown children who are all married,
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and they all have children.
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SPEAKER_03: And so we have three grandchildren with one on the way.
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And,
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yeah,
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we're very thankful to be in Cedarville,
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if people don't know.
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SPEAKER_03: It's kind of in the Dayton area.
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SPEAKER_03: It's a rural town outside of Dayton, about 30 minutes.
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SPEAKER_03: So I actually live in the city of Dayton, Ohio.
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SPEAKER_03: And yeah, this is, you know, as far as most recently, it's my dream job.
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SPEAKER_03: So for those who don't know,
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Cedarville University is a Baptist university that has been
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around since 1887.
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It was actually founded by the RPCNA,
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the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America.
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SPEAKER_03: And the Baptists took it over in the 1950s.
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And very,
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very graciously,
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it was,
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you know,
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the keys were kind of handed over.
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SPEAKER_03: It was a very ecumenical type movement.
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SPEAKER_03: For years,
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SPEAKER_03: the school was a GARBC school,
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SPEAKER_03: but now it's somewhat independent,
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though endorsed by the Ohio Baptist Convention of the Southern
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Baptist Convention,
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SPEAKER_03: so we have some loose ties with the SBC.
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SPEAKER_03: But it is a liberal arts college that...
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SPEAKER_03: has all kinds of majors.
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SPEAKER_03: So we do have a Bible major and an MDiv program,
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SPEAKER_03: but we have everything from engineering to nursing to the arts.
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So we have all kinds of students from everywhere around the US
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and the world.
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SPEAKER_03: We have about currently 6,400 undergrad students,
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SPEAKER_03: or maybe that's full enrollment,
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SPEAKER_03: including graduate students as well.
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But yeah,
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around 6,400 students altogether,
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with about 5,000 of those residing on campus.
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SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's awesome.
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SPEAKER_02: So there was no hostile takeover back in the 50s then?
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SPEAKER_03: No, no, it was a friendly handover.
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SPEAKER_03: And I kind of joke, like everything, the Baptists made it better.
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SPEAKER_03: But yeah, the school was actually under the RPCNA, just not thriving.
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SPEAKER_03: And there was actually a school called Cincinnati Bible College.
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that basically merged with Cedarville and there was a friendly
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handing over.
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SPEAKER_03: And by God's grace, the school is doing extremely well.
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SPEAKER_03: We had 1,175 incoming freshmen last year,
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SPEAKER_03: and it looks like we're going to exceed that this coming fall.
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SPEAKER_03: And so while many colleges,
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SPEAKER_03: Christian and otherwise,
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SPEAKER_03: are struggling,
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SPEAKER_03: God just seems to be blessing Cedarville.
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SPEAKER_03: So we're super thankful to be here.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that sounds amazing.
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And you mentioned that kind of teaching and being in a
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professor-type role has been
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SPEAKER_02: somewhat of,
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SPEAKER_02: you said,
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SPEAKER_02: your dream job.
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SPEAKER_02: What is,
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SPEAKER_02: I could say,
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SPEAKER_02: the most life-giving aspect,
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SPEAKER_02: if I can,
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SPEAKER_02: about being in the academy and teaching theology in the academy,
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SPEAKER_02: if I can put it that way?
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's really a great question.
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SPEAKER_03: The thing about Cedarville,
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if I could just say one more thing about it and then transition
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to that question,
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SPEAKER_03: is that every student,
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SPEAKER_03: regardless of their major,
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SPEAKER_03: has to take a Bible minor.
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So they take five classes with us in the Bible School of
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Biblical and Theological Studies.
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SPEAKER_03: For short, we just call it the BTS around here.
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SPEAKER_03: So every student takes that Bible minor.
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SPEAKER_03: They begin in a school,
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SPEAKER_03: begin in a class called Bible and the gospel,
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SPEAKER_03: which is kind of introductory.
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SPEAKER_03: What is the gospel transit?
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SPEAKER_03: And like, what are the I call it?
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SPEAKER_03: What are the ordinary means of grace sort of spiritual disciplines?
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SPEAKER_03: But and then transition into how do we study the Bible?
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SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of the basic class,
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and then from there they take Old Testament literature and New
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Testament literature,
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SPEAKER_03: which are basically like your survey classes,
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SPEAKER_03: and then Theology I and Theology II.
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SPEAKER_03: So clearly like a Theology I course,
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SPEAKER_03: which I currently teach,
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SPEAKER_03: we're teaching doctrine or prolegomena,
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SPEAKER_03: how to study theology.
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doctrine of god trinity um um creation anthropology and uh sin
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are that so it's at
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a fairly high level so that's a lot to cover in just you know
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one semester yeah um
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SPEAKER_03: but uh
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So sort of what you got at Midwestern in the online as far as
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the kinds of areas
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SPEAKER_03: that are covered,
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SPEAKER_03: that's what we cover in the undergrad.
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SPEAKER_03: And I cover it at the same level.
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SPEAKER_03: So that's one thing that's sort of unique about Cedarville.
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SPEAKER_03: And so what's life-giving about it is that I have students,
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SPEAKER_03: as I mentioned,
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SPEAKER_03: from every single one of those majors.
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SPEAKER_03: In fact, I have very few Bible majors in my school.
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SPEAKER_03: Bible minor classes.
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SPEAKER_03: They all have to take it still, even though they're Bible majors.
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But the majority of my students are nursing students and
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engineers and creative
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SPEAKER_03: writing and all kinds of stuff.
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SPEAKER_03: So
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SPEAKER_03: It's really to answer that question,
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like a life giving to just have that kind of student in class
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learning theology.
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And for the most part,
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you know,
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95 percent plus are really interested,
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you know.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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And so for my Theology One course,
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they have to write a 10 page doctrine paper.
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SPEAKER_03: in which they have to explore an area of theology proper.
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SPEAKER_03: So writing on divine aseity or divine simplicity.
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SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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they can write on total depravity because we're dealing with
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sin or imago dei,
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but the expectation is that they're not pulling their
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information from the Gospel
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SPEAKER_03: Coalition or...
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SPEAKER_03: Desiring God,
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SPEAKER_03: although those things are fine,
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SPEAKER_03: but they're pulling from,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: primary and secondary sources that you and I would use in our research.
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SPEAKER_03: And so we want them really digging in.
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SPEAKER_03: So that's very life-giving.
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SPEAKER_03: The environment here is fantastic.
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You know,
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so teaching in general is a great thing,
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but teaching here is especially important.
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SPEAKER_03: Special.
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SPEAKER_03: The students are tremendous.
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SPEAKER_03: The faculty is tremendous.
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SPEAKER_03: And the university itself,
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because of it being a Christian university that has still
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theological moorings in classic,
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SPEAKER_03: historic,
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SPEAKER_03: confessional theology,
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SPEAKER_03: it's just a healthy place.
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SPEAKER_03: And it's a lot of fun, man.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: And as you know,
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SPEAKER_03: I was a pastor for 27 years,
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SPEAKER_03: and so I get to still do pastoral-type things with my students.
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SPEAKER_03: Though I always,
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SPEAKER_03: if they come and meet with me or even in the classroom,
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I always point them back to the local church because that's
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where they need to be pastored.
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But just kind of having some opportunity to still have that
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pastoral heart is also great.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I think it's important to note that studying theology,
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SPEAKER_02: and maybe this is like a desired taste,
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SPEAKER_02: but I think studying theology can be really fun,
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SPEAKER_02: and I think that's one of the misconceptions that I've tried to instill,
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SPEAKER_02: even within my own church,
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SPEAKER_02: is that theology is not this dry,
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SPEAKER_02: rote,
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SPEAKER_02: or even,
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SPEAKER_02: I could say,
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SPEAKER_02: purely academic discipline.
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It's actually something that should be very life-giving,
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especially from the standpoint of like,
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The study of theology is the study of the very God who not only
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just made us,
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but redeemed us.
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SPEAKER_02: And that's where the source of our delight comes from, right?
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
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SPEAKER_03: And that's something we begin class with.
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I use,
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you know,
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a few of the definitions that are sort of classic in some sense.
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SPEAKER_03: So,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: the idea of faith seeking understanding from Anselm,
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SPEAKER_03: but also John Webster's,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: shorter biblical reasoning,
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SPEAKER_03: but then his longer definition.
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SPEAKER_03: We're studying
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SPEAKER_03: all that is in God and all things relative to God.
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SPEAKER_03: So, you know, the, the, the prime subject of theology is God himself.
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And then all things relative to God,
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because we want to keep that creator creature distinction.
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SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
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SPEAKER_03: that it is,
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is something delightful and that God is beautiful and he is the
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fountain of beauty
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SPEAKER_03: and therefore is,
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SPEAKER_03: is worthy of our study.
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SPEAKER_03: And so,
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SPEAKER_03: He often quote Deuteronomy 29,
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SPEAKER_03: 29,
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SPEAKER_03: the secret things belong to the Lord,
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SPEAKER_03: but the things that he has revealed to us are for us and our children.
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SPEAKER_03: And so I think, you know, hey guys, what has God revealed to us?
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SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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of course we get into the incomprehensibility of God and that
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we cannot get our
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SPEAKER_03: minds and our hands fully around God,
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SPEAKER_03: but he has given us
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this revelation so that we might apprehend him and then worship
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him as a result of
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it and so really try that so people would kind of like question
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like why because I
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start with after prolegomena and as a part of prolegomena like
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why do we start with
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God rather than start with scripture because that is his
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revelation to us and and I
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just kind of say because God is the subject we want to begin
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there and of course I
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SPEAKER_03: can't help but mention scripture but also you
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SPEAKER_03: You know,
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SPEAKER_03: general revelation or natural law or natural revelation,
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SPEAKER_03: natural law,
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SPEAKER_03: natural theology as well.
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SPEAKER_03: But, you know, God is the subject, so let's begin with him.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's so important.
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SPEAKER_02: It's something that I've tried to instill in our church.
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We actually just finished a couple of months ago a basically 13
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or 14-month Sunday
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school sort of curriculum where we were going through all of
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the doctrines,
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SPEAKER_02: or most of the doctrines,
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SPEAKER_02: the 10 systematic doctrines,
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SPEAKER_02: if you will.
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SPEAKER_02: And I found it so,
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SPEAKER_02: to me,
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SPEAKER_02: so captivating just to understand just how,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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even the weeks that we spent on these were somewhat bird's eye
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views of these
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SPEAKER_02: specific doctrines.
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SPEAKER_02: Because all of these ologies,
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all of these studies of the facets of who God is and how he's
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revealed himself to us,
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could be whole years or multiple years worth of study in and of themselves,
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SPEAKER_02: which just,
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SPEAKER_02: I think,
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SPEAKER_02: instills this richness,
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but this also abundance of just knowledge that's just teeming
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at the surface of
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SPEAKER_02: Scripture that's just waiting to sort of be mined and explored,
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SPEAKER_02: which for me,
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SPEAKER_02: at least,
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SPEAKER_02: as someone who just loves research,
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SPEAKER_02: that's just really,
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SPEAKER_02: really fun to get my hands and to sink my teeth into.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: And I think if we look back at the sort of classic works,
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SPEAKER_03: I think Francis Turretin,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: one of my favorites,
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SPEAKER_03: three volumes,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: and they're not small volumes where he's exploring,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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these kind of questions and sort of an sort of a Thomist sort
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of structure.
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SPEAKER_03: Um,
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SPEAKER_03: and you even think about Thomas and,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: the version I have is five volumes and it's,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: really tiny,
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SPEAKER_03: uh,
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SPEAKER_03: print and,
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SPEAKER_03: uh,
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SPEAKER_03: yeah,
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SPEAKER_03: just the,
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SPEAKER_03: the amount of what can be explored,
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SPEAKER_03: um,
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SPEAKER_03: is,
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SPEAKER_03: is vast.
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SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I've been telling my students, like, this is lifelong.
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What we're trying to instill in you is that you would still
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have this curiosity,
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um,
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SPEAKER_03: Certainly,
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SPEAKER_03: we'd like for you to be Sunday school teachers,
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SPEAKER_03: even if you're a mechanical engineer at Caterpillar or something.
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We want you to have this sort of baseline to continue having
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that curiosity and
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SPEAKER_03: study and be able to teach Sunday school or those kind of things,
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SPEAKER_03: even if you're not going into ministry.
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You're still going to minister because you're a part of the
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local assembly,
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but yeah,
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man.
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SPEAKER_02: So in answering—well,
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SPEAKER_02: I'll ask a couple other questions,
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which is just that there's this common notion within certain
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denominational circles
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SPEAKER_02: we could say that I don't need doctrine,
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SPEAKER_02: I just need Jesus.
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SPEAKER_02: Number one, how would you answer that?
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SPEAKER_02: And then number two,
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SPEAKER_02: as you're teaching theology in the academy,
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SPEAKER_02: how do you translate that into,
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SPEAKER_02: we could say,
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SPEAKER_02: on-the-ground local church significance?
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Because I think we should recognize the difference between just
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academic study and
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SPEAKER_02: practicality sometimes,
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SPEAKER_02: but where's the crossover?
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SPEAKER_02: Where does that intersect?
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if someone says to me, you know, I don't need doctrine.
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SPEAKER_03: I just need Jesus.
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SPEAKER_03: My first question back to them is, which Jesus?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the name Jesus has a meaning.
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SPEAKER_03: And what does it mean?
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I mean,
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well,
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the Bible tells us,
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you know,
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he shall save his people from their sins.
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SPEAKER_03: God saves.
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SPEAKER_03: But, okay, beyond that, you know, the Jehovah's Witness have a Jesus.
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SPEAKER_03: The Mormons have a Jesus.
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SPEAKER_03: Well, the Jesus of the Bible.
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Well,
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they're going to tell you that they're explaining to you the
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Jesus of the Bible.
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SPEAKER_03: So we need doctrine.
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SPEAKER_03: And the Bible uses the term doctrine, by the way.
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SPEAKER_03: You know, Paul tells Titus to keep his doctrine.
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SPEAKER_03: Or is it Timothy?
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SPEAKER_03: I can't remember.
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SPEAKER_03: Timothy and Titus, maybe.
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you know to have well Titus he says sound doctrine Timothy he
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says keep you know
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keep keep your doctrine pure or whatever however he says it I'm
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messing it up but
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yeah you know we need teaching and what is that teaching and
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the Bible itself you
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know uses the word confession this we confess you know we think
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about Philippians 2
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or these other places where confession the word confession is
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used and so you know
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even to say you believe well that's what confession means or
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creed means so
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SPEAKER_03: You know,
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SPEAKER_03: we have to have a system of doctrine,
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SPEAKER_03: and the church has never been without it,
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SPEAKER_03: even if it claims to not have that.
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SPEAKER_03: You know, I had a student, we were working through Prolegomena, and
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SPEAKER_03: And as I'm describing,
16:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: kind of the no creed but Christ kind of tribe,
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SPEAKER_03: I didn't use any names.
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SPEAKER_03: She like raises her hand.
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SPEAKER_03: She's like, would the restoration movement be considered that?
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SPEAKER_03: And I said, are you part of the restoration movement?
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SPEAKER_03: And she said, yes.
16:39
SPEAKER_03: I said, well, not trying to be offensive, but yes.
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You know,
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and she took it in stride and she's actually a very excellent student.
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SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
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I try to explain that everybody has their system of belief in
16:54
if they claim they don't.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: And then I think how that translates into the church is,
17:00
SPEAKER_03: on the one hand,
17:01
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:02
church is just being honest about that in the sense of the
17:04
leadership saying,
17:06
SPEAKER_03: hey,
17:06
we do have a statement of faith and let's reference that from
17:09
time to time,
17:10
SPEAKER_03: you know.
17:12
And whether that's a Sunday school class that walks through it
17:14
or even the pastor
17:15
SPEAKER_03: just mentioning,
17:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:19
SPEAKER_03: this actually comports with what we confess,
17:21
SPEAKER_03: you know.
17:22
SPEAKER_03: So I would...
17:24
SPEAKER_03: The church we were part of in Peoria,
17:26
SPEAKER_03: we confess the abstract of principles,
17:28
SPEAKER_03: which is essentially a summary of the Second London Confession.
17:32
And so I would quote from the abstract or quote from the Second
17:35
London all the time
17:36
SPEAKER_03: and just say,
17:38
SPEAKER_03: hey,
17:38
SPEAKER_03: this actually is in line with what we confess as a church.
17:42
SPEAKER_03: It's historic.
17:43
SPEAKER_03: It's in line with Nicene theology.
17:47
SPEAKER_03: It's in line with Chalcedonian Christology or whatever the case may be.
17:52
SPEAKER_03: And not to just use those terms to be fancy,
17:55
SPEAKER_03: but to explain,
17:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:56
SPEAKER_03: what is Chalcedon or,
17:58
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:59
SPEAKER_03: these kinds of things.
17:59
SPEAKER_03: And maybe people would think that's too highfalutin preaching.
18:05
SPEAKER_03: But,
18:06
SPEAKER_03: you know,
18:08
if we're not grounded in the history of the church and we think
18:10
the church started
18:11
SPEAKER_03: in 1950 or even 1517—
18:15
We're ignorant of reading the scripture and studying the
18:19
scripture with the church.
18:20
SPEAKER_03: And so I think we need to introduce that to people within the church.
18:23
SPEAKER_03: So the church I'm a part of currently,
18:25
SPEAKER_03: a church called Trinity Church in Dayton,
18:28
SPEAKER_03: we recite the Nicene Creed at the end of every service.
18:32
SPEAKER_03: And we are technically a Southern Baptist church.
18:35
Have you ever heard of a Southern Baptist church that confesses
18:37
the Nicene Creed at
18:38
SPEAKER_03: the end of every service?
18:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:40
SPEAKER_03: And we participate, we partake in the Lord's table every Sunday.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, our pastors do a great job of fencing the table.
18:49
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's just part of our liturgy.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: And we don't have like a really high liturgy.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: You know, some people would come in.
18:57
I remember one of my colleagues who's a part of our church said
19:01
he had an Anglican
19:01
SPEAKER_03: student show up and say,
19:03
SPEAKER_03: well,
19:03
SPEAKER_03: where's the incense?
19:04
SPEAKER_03: Like your church...
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Your church doesn't smell like church.
19:10
SPEAKER_03: So my senses are not engaged because you don't burn incense.
19:14
SPEAKER_03: We've got to work on that as Baptists.
19:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:19
SPEAKER_03: And I understand.
19:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I get it.
19:22
But when I lived in Chicago,
19:24
I went to Jesus People USA,
19:26
and it smelled like patchouli.
19:28
SPEAKER_03: It smelled like what church smells like for hippies.
19:33
But anyway,
19:37
yeah,
19:37
I think that we've got to engage people and then just help them
19:40
see how
19:44
SPEAKER_03: If we say that we love God, we want to know about him.
19:47
So the practical aspect of it is that we're encouraging worship
19:52
of God through
19:54
SPEAKER_03: doctrinal vibrancy and theological depth.
20:01
SPEAKER_03: One of the things I say to my students,
20:03
SPEAKER_03: and I would say this in the pulpit when I was preaching,
20:05
SPEAKER_03: is everybody says,
20:07
SPEAKER_03: just let me have a simple faith.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: And I was, there's no such thing, you know?
20:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean, yes, we have faith like children, but we don't stay children.
20:16
SPEAKER_03: You know, we need to grow.
20:17
I mean,
20:17
Peter says we grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord
20:20
Jesus Christ.
20:21
SPEAKER_03: And in order to do that is not diminishing childlike faith,
20:25
SPEAKER_03: but I'm saying,
20:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
20:28
SPEAKER_03: again,
20:29
SPEAKER_03: if God has revealed it to us,
20:33
SPEAKER_03: and even what we,
20:34
SPEAKER_03: and a lot of people will be frustrated with a statement like this,
20:38
Even what we can gather about God through natural revelation
20:43
that then is affirmed
20:47
SPEAKER_03: by the scriptures,
20:49
SPEAKER_03: even if we have to use language that is outside of the scriptures,
20:52
SPEAKER_03: which everybody does,
20:53
SPEAKER_03: even though they say they don't.
20:57
then we ought to want to know this God more and more and deepen
21:05
our understanding,
21:06
SPEAKER_03: though he is incomprehensible,
21:09
but because he is lovely and worthy of our love because he has
21:14
loved us so well.
21:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: I think,
21:16
SPEAKER_02: too,
21:17
there's this—the notion of the study of theology should also be
21:21
done with,
21:22
SPEAKER_02: I think,
21:23
SPEAKER_02: a very firm grasp of historical theology,
21:26
SPEAKER_02: just from the standpoint that we,
21:29
SPEAKER_02: as the Church in 2025—
21:31
SPEAKER_02: are not enduring things that are entirely unprecedented.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of cycles to things that occur within society or culture,
21:46
SPEAKER_02: truths that get a lot of weight or they get a lot of movement.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: We could say there's a lot of voices behind them.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: It's not to say that there's not new challenges,
21:58
SPEAKER_02: but they're just new challenges that are remixed.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: It's like old challenges remixed into new confrontations,
22:05
SPEAKER_02: which is just to say that retrieving our past as the church of God,
22:11
SPEAKER_02: I think is absolutely vital.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember who it was,
22:16
SPEAKER_02: but there was a Hebrew scholar,
22:18
SPEAKER_02: theologian,
22:19
SPEAKER_02: and if you know who he is,
22:20
SPEAKER_02: just drop him in the comments.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: But he was saying that as believers,
22:27
SPEAKER_02: we walk into the future backwards,
22:31
basically like we're looking at the past in terms of how we
22:35
understand the way in
22:36
SPEAKER_02: which God works,
22:37
which I think is such a helpful lens paradigm by which we can
22:41
understand the
22:41
SPEAKER_02: importance of historical theology,
22:44
SPEAKER_02: but theology in general.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: Why is all this important?
22:47
SPEAKER_02: Well,
22:47
SPEAKER_02: it allows us to be able to walk into the next steps,
22:50
SPEAKER_02: whatever they are,
22:51
SPEAKER_02: whatever challenges the church is going to face.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: With a better understanding,
22:55
SPEAKER_02: but with a better discernment of how God has already worked,
23:01
SPEAKER_02: which gives us faith and solidifies our assurance of him and his truth.
23:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: You know, being novel is where we get in trouble.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:16
SPEAKER_03: You know,
23:17
SPEAKER_03: so when we get into like impassibility in my theology class,
23:23
SPEAKER_03: I asked the students,
23:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
23:25
a modern event where the doctrine of impassibility was sort of
23:32
dismissed and they
23:33
SPEAKER_03: almost always are able to come up with the Holocaust because,
23:36
SPEAKER_03: you know,
23:37
of the idea that if God does not suffer,
23:39
that he can't be a God who understands us.
23:47
And so this great amount of suffering,
23:50
you think about Moltmann and his whole...
23:55
SPEAKER_03: you know, his whole thought on that.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, we understand that God in the flesh did suffer.
24:05
SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, Hebrews 4.15, that he is able to understand.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: But to strip God of his immutability, which impassibility is a subset of,
24:23
SPEAKER_03: changes who God is.
24:25
And so the whole point of me saying that is that when we become
24:29
novel is when we
24:30
SPEAKER_03: really get into trouble.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: And then when we try to fix a problem
24:36
SPEAKER_03: of a novel nature with modern theology versus going back to the past,
24:46
SPEAKER_03: the solutions themselves become a problem.
24:49
SPEAKER_03: So you have the problem of open theism,
24:53
SPEAKER_03: and when you try to address it through a post-enlightenment,
24:57
SPEAKER_03: modernistic sort of lens –
25:01
you still end up with a God who is not the God of church history,
25:05
if you will.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: Not that church history is the container of God,
25:12
SPEAKER_03: but how God has been understood for 2,000 years gets lost.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm thankful for the revival of classical theism.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: And,
25:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
25:22
SPEAKER_03: I was ignorant of it until probably a decade plus ago,
25:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
25:27
SPEAKER_03: and just was not in the galaxies in which I traveled,
25:35
SPEAKER_03: you know.
25:35
And so I was fine with the modern responses to open theism
25:39
until I learned that
25:41
SPEAKER_03: And again,
25:42
SPEAKER_03: I love these men who produce these things,
25:48
SPEAKER_03: but again,
25:52
the whole point of being like we can't detach ourselves from
25:55
the history of the
25:55
church and creeds and confessions and the things that have been
25:58
fought through.
26:00
SPEAKER_03: I tell my students or ask them,
26:03
SPEAKER_03: why are creeds and confessions,
26:06
SPEAKER_03: what made those things necessary?
26:08
And it's because heresy came along that those things needed to
26:12
be addressed.
26:13
And so it's not that the church started believing in the
26:19
divinity of Christ at Nicaea.
26:21
is that the church already believed it and Arius comes along
26:24
and says well you know
26:26
what does Colossians 1 15 mean if he's the firstborn of all
26:29
creation and so just
26:30
kind of work our way through that but but again I'm kind of
26:33
dragging the point on
26:33
here I apologize no just that we need to we not we need to not
26:36
be you know detached
26:38
SPEAKER_03: from history so
26:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think, yeah, it's really reminiscent of what C.S.
26:43
Lewis writes in his prologue to—or his preface to On the
26:47
Incarnation by Athanasius,
26:49
where he talks about chronological snobbery and the idea that
26:52
we have it more
26:53
SPEAKER_02: figured out than what has come previously.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that—
26:58
SPEAKER_02: I think there is maybe,
27:00
SPEAKER_02: if it's not always explicit,
27:01
SPEAKER_02: there is this implicit or even innate arrogance to ecclesiology.
27:09
The ecclesiastical sphere is somewhat innately that,
27:12
where we don't need what has come before.
27:16
Obviously,
27:16
the church of the past didn't face what we're facing now,
27:19
so why do we need all that?
27:21
SPEAKER_02: But that's kind of the answer.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: The answer is...
27:24
to return to and to retrieve faithfully what the church has
27:29
already navigated through,
27:30
SPEAKER_02: which helps us understand what we are navigating through currently.
27:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
27:35
SPEAKER_03: and I really like,
27:36
SPEAKER_03: and I know some people have not been fans of Barrett's book,
27:39
SPEAKER_03: Retrieval for the Sake of Renewal.
27:42
Uh,
27:42
but I like that terminology that it's not just retrieval for
27:45
the sake of retrieval.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: It's, it's retrieval for the sake of renewal.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: And that renewal is,
27:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:51
SPEAKER_03: even what,
27:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Luther and,
27:54
SPEAKER_03: uh,
27:54
SPEAKER_03: our other heroes from the reformation were doing,
27:56
SPEAKER_03: which is,
27:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:57
SPEAKER_03: ad fontes,
27:58
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:58
SPEAKER_03: um,
27:59
SPEAKER_03: going back to the sources and just recognizing the heritage.
28:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
28:05
SPEAKER_03: And not thinking, you know, these guys are,
28:07
SPEAKER_03: Well,
28:08
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:08
SPEAKER_03: the circles I grew up in,
28:09
SPEAKER_03: it was,
28:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:10
SPEAKER_03: it was like,
28:11
SPEAKER_03: oh,
28:11
SPEAKER_03: those are all Roman Catholics.
28:14
SPEAKER_03: No,
28:14
SPEAKER_03: now,
28:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:15
SPEAKER_03: in retrospect,
28:16
SPEAKER_03: I can look at that and say,
28:17
SPEAKER_03: you don't understand,
28:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:19
SPEAKER_03: the history of that,
28:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:23
SPEAKER_03: especially if you don't understand the order of things,
28:25
SPEAKER_03: like when did the Council of Trent actually happen,
28:27
SPEAKER_03: you know?
28:30
And,
28:31
you know,
28:32
the things that are codified today were not codified back then,
28:34
right?
28:35
SPEAKER_03: And so...
28:36
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, yeah.
28:38
SPEAKER_03: And I'm,
28:38
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:39
I'm still ignorant of so many things in church history because
28:42
I did my work in
28:43
SPEAKER_03: systematic theology,
28:44
SPEAKER_03: but thankfully those worlds,
28:46
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:47
SPEAKER_03: are lessening in their separation.
28:49
SPEAKER_03: And so,
28:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:51
SPEAKER_03: it's,
28:51
SPEAKER_03: um,
28:52
I'm thankful that I had church historians as some of my profs
28:55
during my PhD work
28:57
SPEAKER_03: that were helping me through that.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, and, uh,
29:00
SPEAKER_03: I took a Reformation class,
29:03
SPEAKER_03: and most of the students that I took it with,
29:06
SPEAKER_03: it was an elective for me.
29:07
I didn't have to take it,
29:08
but I was like,
29:08
I'm going to take this during my Ph.D.
29:09
SPEAKER_03: program.
29:10
SPEAKER_03: Most of the students that were with me in that class who are,
29:13
SPEAKER_03: the majority of them,
29:14
SPEAKER_03: still dear friends who I love,
29:16
SPEAKER_03: who are,
29:18
SPEAKER_03: even though I'm older than all of them,
29:20
SPEAKER_03: they're my seniors so much so in their scholarship.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: But,
29:24
SPEAKER_03: um,
29:26
SPEAKER_03: uh,
29:26
SPEAKER_03: they were like,
29:26
SPEAKER_03: Hey,
29:27
SPEAKER_03: are you going to switch from being systematics to historical theology?
29:31
SPEAKER_03: Because,
29:32
SPEAKER_03: because even,
29:33
SPEAKER_03: you know,
29:33
SPEAKER_03: seven,
29:34
SPEAKER_03: eight,
29:34
SPEAKER_03: nine years ago,
29:35
SPEAKER_03: that was still such a divide,
29:36
SPEAKER_03: but I'm glad to see those worlds coming back together.
29:39
SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
29:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: As you sort of ascertain where the church is right now in 2025,
29:48
what would you say is one of the most significant areas of
29:52
theology that's like
29:53
SPEAKER_02: lacking or that needs to have more maybe urgency and not just study,
30:01
SPEAKER_02: but recovery and faithfulness?
30:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
30:06
probably the one that comes to mind first is I just heard this
30:12
interview that they
30:14
did on Mortification of Spin with Brad Littlejohn on his book
30:18
on Christian liberty.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: And man,
30:20
I was so thankful for the recovery that he does in that because
30:26
I think because of
30:28
SPEAKER_03: our political atmosphere that we currently are in,
30:33
just to understand the difference between what I hold
30:37
personally and where I can
30:39
SPEAKER_03: disagree with my church leaders and not make that an issue of separation.
30:45
Sort of sort of personal freedom versus how the church ought to
30:48
respond to some of
30:49
SPEAKER_03: these things.
30:49
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's super helpful.
30:52
I think that's such a huge area that that is underdeveloped and
30:55
not even probably thought about.
30:57
SPEAKER_03: And we think about Christian liberty and we're like,
30:59
SPEAKER_03: oh,
30:59
SPEAKER_03: you know,
31:00
SPEAKER_03: some people are OK with drinking.
31:01
SPEAKER_03: Other people are not OK with that.
31:02
SPEAKER_03: We need to be careful who we offend or whatever.
31:05
SPEAKER_03: And this really has to do with matters of the conscience,
31:07
SPEAKER_03: both personal and at a larger level,
31:10
SPEAKER_03: where it's like,
31:10
SPEAKER_03: hey,
31:11
SPEAKER_03: you know what,
31:12
I can disagree with my church leadership over the way that they
31:17
decide to do
31:18
SPEAKER_03: something about,
31:19
SPEAKER_03: let's say,
31:19
SPEAKER_03: the gathering of the church.
31:24
Let's say that there's somebody at my local church that really
31:26
doesn't like that we
31:27
SPEAKER_03: do the Nicene Creed at the end of every service.
31:30
SPEAKER_03: There's a way for you to personally,
31:34
SPEAKER_03: like,
31:35
SPEAKER_03: not,
31:35
SPEAKER_03: I don't want to say disagree with that,
31:37
SPEAKER_03: but personally,
31:38
SPEAKER_03: like,
31:38
SPEAKER_03: that's not my favorite thing.
31:40
But I'm going to submit to my elders anyway,
31:42
and I'm not going to make a huge issue out of that.
31:45
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
31:46
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
31:47
SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to submit to their leadership,
31:50
SPEAKER_03: even though I might do something differently if I were in charge.
31:53
SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
31:55
So I think that issue of liberty and where those spheres are is
32:00
super helpful and
32:02
SPEAKER_03: needed in our churches because we just have,
32:05
SPEAKER_03: I think...
32:07
SPEAKER_03: Well,
32:07
SPEAKER_03: part of that too,
32:08
SPEAKER_03: brother,
32:08
SPEAKER_03: as you know,
32:09
SPEAKER_03: because you're a pastor and I was a pastor for 27 years,
32:12
just the idea of the rugged individualism that has been a part
32:18
of our DNA in the
32:20
SPEAKER_03: United States since the beginning is,
32:22
um i think that that we treat church in that way as well oh
32:27
yeah so i think i think
32:29
a recovery of not just ecclesiology in regard to polity which i
32:33
think is important
32:33
certainly but ecclesiology in the sense of um what does it mean
32:37
to live as a local
32:39
assembly um in a place where individualism is um promoted you
32:47
know the american
32:48
SPEAKER_03: dream all those kinds of things which is
32:50
SPEAKER_03: On some level, it's certainly fine.
32:51
SPEAKER_03: I have no problem with capitalism.
32:52
SPEAKER_03: I have a problem with avarice.
32:56
But I think that that's another area that probably kind of
33:03
overlaps a little bit.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
33:07
There's so many squabbles or dilemmas that arise within a local
33:12
church ministry
33:13
because of that very fact where this misunderstanding of what
33:18
Christian liberty is
33:19
SPEAKER_02: and how it kind of manifests,
33:21
not just in the discussions regarding entertainment choices or
33:26
whether you're going
33:27
SPEAKER_02: to drink alcohol or not.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: It actually, I think, permeates a lot of other areas.
33:32
And I think it's really,
33:33
really important for us to understand how to disagree well.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: I think a really good place to go to on that is actually,
33:43
SPEAKER_02: and I did some study on this a couple of,
33:47
SPEAKER_02: well,
33:47
SPEAKER_02: a year ago or so now.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: But in Acts 15,
33:49
SPEAKER_02: of course,
33:50
SPEAKER_02: right after the Jerusalem Council,
33:52
SPEAKER_02: Barnabas and Paul have this falling out.
33:54
And I think the really key point to remember is they're kind of
33:58
both right.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: Man, 100%.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: The church doesn't...
34:03
SPEAKER_02: The early church doesn't really give...
34:07
SPEAKER_02: Like,
34:07
SPEAKER_02: they don't pick sides necessarily in this squabble.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: Actually, the word is sharp disagreement in the USV.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really interesting to note that...
34:18
they disagreed,
34:19
and they disagreed well,
34:20
and even later on,
34:21
they reconciled.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: We can kind of infer that from Scripture.
34:25
And I think that that's a really good...
34:28
People always go to 1 Corinthians 8 or Romans 14.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
34:32
I'd go to Acts 15 if we're talking about Christian liberty and
34:35
disagreeing well,
34:36
SPEAKER_02: because I think that example is so important,
34:40
SPEAKER_02: just because of the ramifications of that disagreement.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of what-ifs that come from that.
34:47
SPEAKER_03: But, yeah, Paul is like, look, I can't have a deserter on my team.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: And Barnabas is like, somebody needs to disciple this young man.
34:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:55
SPEAKER_03: Right?
34:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, can you argue with either one of those things, you know?
34:59
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
35:00
SPEAKER_03: And I tend to be more of a Barnabas in my approach, you know what I mean?
35:03
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
35:04
SPEAKER_03: So I can kind of, you know, sympathize with Barnabas a bit more.
35:08
But I also understand Paul's point of like,
35:11
hey,
35:11
he is not going with us,
35:13
right?
35:13
SPEAKER_03: Like, this cannot be.
35:15
Um,
35:16
and I think that there is an amount of sacrifice on Barnabas's
35:20
part to stay behind.
35:22
SPEAKER_03: And there's a bit of sacrifice on Paul's part,
35:25
SPEAKER_03: not just losing Barnabas,
35:26
SPEAKER_03: but also John Mark,
35:28
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:29
SPEAKER_03: um,
35:29
SPEAKER_03: in the sense of another set of hands on the mission.
35:32
SPEAKER_03: And,
35:33
SPEAKER_03: and so,
35:33
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
35:33
SPEAKER_03: I think that's a great example,
35:35
SPEAKER_03: brother,
35:35
of disagreeing well and saying there's something valuable to
35:39
both of these things.
35:41
SPEAKER_03: Um,
35:42
SPEAKER_03: And yet also recognizing in the local church that,
35:47
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:48
SPEAKER_03: so like at Trinity,
35:49
SPEAKER_03: we don't do Hillsong or Bethel or any of those songs.
35:54
SPEAKER_03: And that's a choice that our elders have made.
35:57
SPEAKER_03: And,
35:57
SPEAKER_03: um,
35:58
SPEAKER_03: in our church back in Peoria,
35:59
SPEAKER_03: I was fine with it as long as it was theologically,
36:02
SPEAKER_03: uh,
36:03
SPEAKER_03: robust.
36:04
SPEAKER_03: I know of zero people in my church in Peoria who are like,
36:08
SPEAKER_03: uh,
36:08
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go check out Hillsong's theology and start believing that,
36:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:12
SPEAKER_03: um,
36:12
SPEAKER_03: and,
36:13
SPEAKER_03: uh,
36:13
SPEAKER_03: or Bethel or whatever.
36:14
I mean,
36:15
I don't even,
36:15
I don't even know who writes these songs necessarily,
36:17
you know?
36:17
SPEAKER_03: Um,
36:19
SPEAKER_03: but you know,
36:20
SPEAKER_03: I could like throw a stink,
36:21
SPEAKER_03: like,
36:22
SPEAKER_03: man,
36:22
SPEAKER_03: guys,
36:22
SPEAKER_03: why aren't we doing,
36:23
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:24
SPEAKER_03: Anastasia or whatever the name of that song is.
36:26
SPEAKER_03: And,
36:27
SPEAKER_03: I really love that song.
36:29
SPEAKER_03: But you know what?
36:30
SPEAKER_03: I just submit.
36:31
SPEAKER_03: And I can get in my car afterwards and throw it on my iTunes.
36:36
SPEAKER_03: What is it called now?
36:37
SPEAKER_03: It's not iTunes.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: Apple Music.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
36:39
SPEAKER_03: Apple Music.
36:40
SPEAKER_03: I'm giving my age here.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, I still like just iTunes.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: It makes so much more sense.
36:46
SPEAKER_03: But but anyway,
36:48
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:48
like those those preferential things that we we tend to make
36:55
mountains out of molehills,
36:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:57
SPEAKER_03: kind of thing.
36:58
And just,
37:00
you know,
37:00
and obviously things like COVID really brought to the surface.
37:03
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, but yeah, I think that's a big area.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a really good point.
37:11
SPEAKER_02: And it speaks to the state in which,
37:16
SPEAKER_02: not just church,
37:17
SPEAKER_02: but society in general,
37:18
I think I've mentioned it or I've talked about it or I've
37:21
written about it.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: It's like that first take-ism,
37:26
SPEAKER_02: if I can use the ESPN show analogy,
37:28
where it's just people talking past each other and they're not
37:32
really having a
37:34
SPEAKER_02: healthy conversation about some such subject,
37:36
SPEAKER_02: but they're just trying to get their point across.
37:39
which doesn't really do much in the way of building each other
37:43
up or actually
37:44
SPEAKER_02: coming to solid or even truthful conclusions.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: I haven't watched ESPN first take in a long time,
37:51
so I can't say if they have really sound conversations about
37:56
anything other than
37:57
SPEAKER_02: whether or not LeBron is the GOAT or not.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: It's clearly Jordan, by the way.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, now we're going to debate now.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: No.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: No,
38:08
SPEAKER_02: that idea that we're so divided in terms of like,
38:13
SPEAKER_02: well,
38:14
SPEAKER_02: if you disagree with me,
38:15
SPEAKER_02: then you're obviously an antagonist.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:19
SPEAKER_03: You're not just disagreeing with me.
38:22
SPEAKER_03: You're wrong and you deserve to go to hell.
38:24
I mean,
38:25
that's like you may not be a Christian if you don't agree with
38:28
me on this issue.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's that's kind of the level to which we have taken it.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I just you know, what does the scripture say?
38:36
SPEAKER_03: It says that, you know, love is sacrificial.
38:38
And so I set aside my preferences in order to love my siblings
38:45
in Christ really well,
38:46
SPEAKER_03: especially if they're newer to the faith.
38:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:51
SPEAKER_03: But with the idea that we bring them along so that,
38:53
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
38:53
SPEAKER_03: you can still have that opinion,
38:55
but just know that this person is not making a shipwreck of
38:58
their faith because
38:59
SPEAKER_03: they drink wine.
39:03
But it also seems like people who we ought to consider mature
39:07
Christians –
39:10
SPEAKER_03: also tend to struggle with this as well, including myself.
39:13
SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to exclude myself from that.
39:16
We're all still learning and growing in the process of being
39:18
made into the image of Christ.
39:22
SPEAKER_03: I just think some sacrifice, some humility on our part.
39:29
SPEAKER_03: I just remember people just taking the COVID thing as an example.
39:35
SPEAKER_03: people just getting so angry about,
39:37
SPEAKER_03: I saw this person wearing a mask and it just made my blood boil.
39:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, why do you care?
39:42
SPEAKER_03: I'm not talking about somebody in the church.
39:43
SPEAKER_03: I'm talking about people out in society.
39:45
SPEAKER_03: Like, isn't that a person who needs Jesus?
39:52
SPEAKER_03: And I'm just like, I have my issues as well.
39:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm not trying to minimize the... But anyway...
39:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, COVID really exacerbated that.
40:01
Everyone suddenly became the weaker brother and wanted everyone
40:06
else to submit to
40:07
SPEAKER_02: them in terms of what their preferences were.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm like, do you want to be the weaker brother?
40:13
SPEAKER_03: That's not the place you want to be.
40:16
But everyone was because they wanted people to submit to what
40:20
their preferences were anyways.
40:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm like, if you know that you're the weaker brother,
40:25
SPEAKER_03: and you're making that case, that's something problematic there.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Well,
40:31
SPEAKER_02: you spent,
40:32
SPEAKER_02: just to transition a little bit,
40:34
SPEAKER_02: you spent,
40:34
SPEAKER_02: you said,
40:35
SPEAKER_02: 27 years in pastoral ministry,
40:36
SPEAKER_02: which I think is a feat,
40:39
SPEAKER_02: and we should applaud that faithfulness.
40:41
There's not a lot of people that spend a lot of time in
40:44
ministry nowadays,
40:45
SPEAKER_02: but what would you say,
40:47
SPEAKER_02: or what...
40:49
SPEAKER_02: When would you pinpoint God was kind of calling you out of that vocation,
40:55
SPEAKER_02: if you will,
40:56
SPEAKER_02: as a pastor and calling you into the academy?
41:00
SPEAKER_02: And when did you really feel that calling kind of settle for you?
41:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a great question.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: Just to sort of preface 27 years, it doesn't feel like that.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't feel longer than that.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: It feels like that 27 years went really quickly.
41:17
SPEAKER_03: So when I say 27 years or you say it back to me, it's like, wow.
41:23
But the first 10 years of that was doing youth ministry,
41:26
so I was really young.
41:27
SPEAKER_03: Very green.
41:29
Thankful for the first three years of ministry was done under
41:32
my father-in-law,
41:33
who's a pastor.
41:34
Very faithful pastor who's been extremely wounded in churches
41:37
over the years.
41:39
SPEAKER_03: And because he believes the Bible is true,
41:42
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
41:42
SPEAKER_03: that's what it has come down to many times is...
41:46
SPEAKER_03: You know,
41:46
SPEAKER_03: I think that we need to base everything we do on the scriptures and,
41:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
41:52
SPEAKER_03: that's cost him many a pastoral ministry,
41:56
SPEAKER_03: unfortunately.
41:57
SPEAKER_03: Not always, but many times.
42:01
SPEAKER_03: But,
42:02
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:02
SPEAKER_03: under God's providence,
42:04
SPEAKER_03: I was able to serve under my father-in-law for a little over three years,
42:06
SPEAKER_03: I mean.
42:09
SPEAKER_03: And that was just a great,
42:10
SPEAKER_03: it was almost,
42:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:11
SPEAKER_03: I went from undergrad straight into ministry,
42:14
SPEAKER_03: and it was almost like a very practical three years of seminary training,
42:20
SPEAKER_03: you know,
42:20
SPEAKER_03: without Greek and Hebrew,
42:22
SPEAKER_03: but very much the practical side of,
42:24
SPEAKER_03: like,
42:24
SPEAKER_03: pastoral ministry I learned from him.
42:26
SPEAKER_03: I did obviously go and do seminary later on, but...
42:31
SPEAKER_03: And then I continued in youth ministry for another seven years and then
42:36
SPEAKER_03: transitioned into associate pastor role at the same church.
42:38
SPEAKER_03: So I was at the first church for a little over three years,
42:41
SPEAKER_03: the next church I was at for 12 years,
42:42
SPEAKER_03: and then transitioned from that into the senior pastor,
42:46
SPEAKER_03: which most people call it.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: I don't really care for that term,
42:48
but I was the main preaching pastor of a church in Peoria
42:51
called Fellowship Bible
42:52
SPEAKER_03: Church for nearly 12 years.
42:53
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
42:55
SPEAKER_03: Um,
42:55
SPEAKER_03: and so,
42:56
SPEAKER_03: uh,
42:57
SPEAKER_03: throughout the beginning of my ministry,
43:00
SPEAKER_03: I really didn't think I needed any more academics.
43:03
SPEAKER_03: And then as I began to really learn theology,
43:05
SPEAKER_03: uh,
43:06
SPEAKER_03: which,
43:07
SPEAKER_03: which did happen in my undergrads,
43:08
SPEAKER_03: I went to Moody for my undergrad.
43:10
SPEAKER_03: Um,
43:11
SPEAKER_03: I started like kind of wrestling through things like Calvinism and,
43:14
SPEAKER_03: and reform theology when I was at Moody,
43:15
SPEAKER_03: um,
43:17
SPEAKER_03: And then I was sort of toward the end of my time there.
43:19
SPEAKER_03: And then as I got into,
43:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
43:23
SPEAKER_03: full time ministry that I that I began,
43:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
43:27
SPEAKER_03: reading like I have my,
43:29
SPEAKER_03: you know,
43:31
paperback version of the confessions that I just took out
43:34
earlier and was looking
43:35
through and just seeing like the things I highlighted when I
43:37
was 22 years old,
43:38
SPEAKER_03: you know.
43:39
SPEAKER_03: And I'm nearly 50 now.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: And just learning theology, you know, sparked my interest.
43:46
SPEAKER_03: So I think almost immediately I'm like, oh, I need to go to seminary.
43:49
SPEAKER_03: But it wasn't I graduated from undergrad 97.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: I didn't go back to back to school until 2009.
43:54
So it was in our second church late in that ministry that I
44:00
began to do my first
44:01
SPEAKER_03: master's degree in.
44:03
SPEAKER_03: And then as I started doing that,
44:05
SPEAKER_03: I kind of went to my wife and I said,
44:06
SPEAKER_03: you know,
44:06
SPEAKER_03: I think eventually I'd like to get a PhD.
44:10
SPEAKER_03: And perhaps when I feel like.
44:15
SPEAKER_03: And I do mean feel.
44:16
SPEAKER_03: I don't mean that in the modern way.
44:18
SPEAKER_03: When I feel like I am beginning to wane in the pastoral ministry,
44:24
I want to be able to have this plan of retirement that I would
44:30
just go into the
44:30
academy and take all these years that God has blessed me with
44:34
and apply that in the academy.
44:37
SPEAKER_03: if God would so allow.
44:38
SPEAKER_03: I'm happy to stay in the church as well.
44:40
SPEAKER_03: So there's kind of like this slow movement.
44:43
SPEAKER_03: And eventually, once we moved to Peoria, I started on my THM and PhD.
44:50
And there was a shorter amount of time between my first
44:52
master's degree and then
44:53
SPEAKER_03: doing the THM and PhD at Midwestern.
44:58
SPEAKER_03: That like, as I was reaching the end of that,
45:03
SPEAKER_03: I thought,
45:03
SPEAKER_03: okay,
45:04
SPEAKER_03: maybe when I'm like 55,
45:07
SPEAKER_03: 57,
45:07
SPEAKER_03: somewhere in there,
45:10
SPEAKER_03: it'll be time to kind of turn over the reins to somebody else.
45:13
SPEAKER_03: That will give me a good, you know, 15 years perhaps in the academy.
45:20
SPEAKER_03: And so it was kind of a, you know, plans of man kind of thing.
45:24
SPEAKER_03: Like I had this thought of it.
45:28
SPEAKER_03: And then quite frankly,
45:31
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:31
SPEAKER_03: the things that did happen during COVID started to like,
45:37
SPEAKER_03: okay,
45:38
SPEAKER_03: this has been very tiresome,
45:41
SPEAKER_03: very,
45:41
SPEAKER_03: very awesome elders.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: You know, we walked through that together.
45:45
And then there were just some ministry things that my wife went
45:50
through as well.
45:52
Um,
45:53
that we began to really start like,
45:55
are we,
45:57
are we wearing thin,
45:59
you know?
46:00
SPEAKER_03: So at the end of 2021,
46:02
SPEAKER_03: um,
46:02
SPEAKER_03: I,
46:04
SPEAKER_03: uh,
46:05
SPEAKER_03: took a sabbatical and basically I just went to my elders and said,
46:09
SPEAKER_03: guys,
46:10
SPEAKER_03: um,
46:11
SPEAKER_03: Amber and I are really tired.
46:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, we're very stressed.
46:16
SPEAKER_03: Maybe this was actually the end of 2020.
46:17
SPEAKER_03: No, it's into 2021.
46:19
SPEAKER_03: Um,
46:21
So I said they gave me a month off the year before to work on
46:26
my dissertation.
46:28
SPEAKER_03: And so I felt bad coming back to them,
46:30
but I said we had been being counseled by one of my pastor
46:33
friends in the area,
46:34
SPEAKER_03: and he said,
46:34
SPEAKER_03: I really think you guys need to do a sabbatical.
46:36
SPEAKER_03: So I went to the elders.
46:37
SPEAKER_03: I said, guys, I really think we need a break.
46:39
SPEAKER_03: I know you gave me a break last year, but this is something different.
46:44
And we may come back from whatever this is and say we're done
46:48
because we're just so
46:49
SPEAKER_03: both worn out,
46:49
SPEAKER_03: and especially Amber.
46:52
SPEAKER_03: And I told my wife,
46:53
SPEAKER_03: I said,
46:53
SPEAKER_03: hey,
46:54
if I need to step away from full-time pastoral ministry for the
46:58
sake of your heart
47:00
SPEAKER_03: and your mind,
47:01
SPEAKER_03: then I'll do it.
47:02
I don't know what I'm going to do because all my training is in
47:07
Bible and theology.
47:11
SPEAKER_03: But we'll figure it out.
47:13
SPEAKER_03: And so the elders said, take as much time as you need.
47:17
SPEAKER_03: which is so gracious.
47:18
And so I went to Amber and I said,
47:19
I'm going to let you determine that time.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: I said, I think eight weeks is good.
47:24
And she just kind of got eyes like saucers and said,
47:26
how about six weeks instead?
47:29
And so we took six weeks,
47:31
just total rest,
47:34
went to other churches,
47:35
you know.
47:37
SPEAKER_03: during that six weeks and came back refreshed,
47:40
SPEAKER_03: but definitely knew like when the opportunity arises for us to move on,
47:46
SPEAKER_03: we'll take it and didn't expect for it to be as soon as it was.
47:50
SPEAKER_03: I had been in conversation with Cedarville previously,
47:56
SPEAKER_03: but it had never worked out from a human perspective.
48:00
SPEAKER_03: It's clearly God's timing and
48:03
SPEAKER_03: but when things came back around, there's a longer story here.
48:07
SPEAKER_03: In the midst of my conversations with Cedarville,
48:10
SPEAKER_03: my wife ended up with cancer,
48:11
SPEAKER_03: and so we had to postpone any conversation with them.
48:15
Again,
48:16
we just totally trust in God's sovereignty and his providence
48:18
through all that.
48:19
SPEAKER_03: It was just another season where we saw God just work in...
48:26
SPEAKER_03: you know,
48:27
SPEAKER_03: we've,
48:28
SPEAKER_03: we figured out why my wife was so exhausted because she had cancer,
48:31
SPEAKER_03: you know,
48:31
SPEAKER_03: we didn't know it.
48:33
Um,
48:33
but you know,
48:35
in God's providence,
48:36
um,
48:38
you know,
48:38
there was no scheming behind the scenes.
48:40
SPEAKER_03: Like Cedarville reached out to me in 2021 and Hey, here we go.
48:44
We're going to kind of,
48:45
you know,
48:45
work this thing out kind of under the radar.
48:47
SPEAKER_03: You know,
48:48
SPEAKER_03: I told my elders as soon as I said,
48:49
SPEAKER_03: Hey guys,
48:49
SPEAKER_03: just need you to know,
48:50
SPEAKER_03: Cedarville university contacted me.
48:52
SPEAKER_03: I told them I'm not interested.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: Um,
48:54
SPEAKER_03: But that doesn't mean I'll never be interested, you know.
48:58
SPEAKER_03: So I'm giving you a long answer, man.
49:00
But there was this trajectory from the time I did my first
49:03
master's degree.
49:05
SPEAKER_03: I thought it was going to be much further down the road than what it was.
49:08
SPEAKER_03: And God ended up,
49:12
SPEAKER_03: for lack of a better way of saying it,
49:13
SPEAKER_03: opening the door here for me to come last fall,
49:16
SPEAKER_03: fall of 24,
49:19
SPEAKER_03: and come on faculty here.
49:21
And it was about six years before I thought it would really
49:25
happen from a human perspective.
49:27
SPEAKER_03: But God clearly, you know, had his plan.
49:32
SPEAKER_03: And so here we are.
49:33
SPEAKER_03: And just so you know,
49:34
SPEAKER_03: again,
49:35
SPEAKER_03: from a human side of things,
49:36
SPEAKER_03: my plan is to stay here until I retire.
49:40
SPEAKER_03: You know, stay at Cedarville.
49:42
SPEAKER_03: It's a great place.
49:44
I can't imagine any school that would,
49:48
you know,
49:50
be as supportive and so good to their faculty.
49:53
SPEAKER_03: And they're out there.
49:54
SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying, like, in our case, this is where we want to stay.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: You know,
49:58
SPEAKER_02: I've just as a side note,
49:59
SPEAKER_02: I've seen your updates regarding your wife and I'm praying for.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: I've been battling that.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm definitely praying for the season.
50:07
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
50:08
SPEAKER_03: The biggest battle right now is the not knowing,
50:12
SPEAKER_03: you know,
50:13
SPEAKER_03: the mind games,
50:14
SPEAKER_03: because one test comes back saying you have cancer.
50:17
SPEAKER_03: The next test comes back and says you don't.
50:20
And the doctors are like,
50:21
well,
50:21
we just have to kind of sit and wait and see.
50:23
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of the plan of action.
50:25
SPEAKER_03: Is there cancer?
50:26
SPEAKER_03: Isn't there cancer?
50:28
SPEAKER_03: This would be now recurrence because they took care of it last year.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: And now if there is, again, it's a big if.
50:36
SPEAKER_03: it would be a recurrence.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, we're just trusting the Lord in that.
50:41
SPEAKER_03: And one of the things most recently that we kind of came to grips with,
50:47
SPEAKER_03: and here is another place where theology is so helpful,
50:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
50:52
SPEAKER_03: if,
50:53
SPEAKER_03: if God is good and he is the fountain of goodness,
50:55
SPEAKER_03: he is good in the sense of,
50:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
50:58
SPEAKER_03: his simplicity.
51:00
SPEAKER_03: And he only gives good gifts to,
51:03
SPEAKER_03: then the fact that he numbers our days is a good gift.
51:06
SPEAKER_03: And we have to receive it as such.
51:08
SPEAKER_03: And how do we receive it?
51:10
SPEAKER_03: Well,
51:10
SPEAKER_03: in our case,
51:10
SPEAKER_03: the receiving of it is we would love to see our grandkids grow up,
51:15
SPEAKER_03: trust Jesus,
51:16
SPEAKER_03: get married,
51:16
SPEAKER_03: have kids of their own.
51:19
SPEAKER_03: But the beatific vision is better.
51:23
SPEAKER_03: You know?
51:25
And so it's good of God to number our days because to be absent
51:30
from the body is to
51:31
SPEAKER_03: be present with the Lord.
51:32
SPEAKER_03: And obviously I believe in a future resurrection beyond that.
51:35
SPEAKER_03: But to live is Christ, to die is gain, right?
51:37
SPEAKER_03: Like there's things to live for,
51:40
SPEAKER_03: but to be in the presence of God and ultimately,
51:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
51:43
SPEAKER_03: once the resurrection does happen to,
51:46
SPEAKER_03: you know,
51:47
SPEAKER_03: to...
51:50
SPEAKER_03: Why can't I think of the word?
51:51
SPEAKER_03: To experience the beatific vision is going to be even better.
51:56
SPEAKER_02: You mentioned that both you and your wife,
51:59
SPEAKER_02: near the tail end of your pastoral ministry phase,
52:03
SPEAKER_02: if I will,
52:04
SPEAKER_02: career,
52:05
SPEAKER_02: that you were just really exhausted and worn out.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: In light of that,
52:11
what is maybe one of the most common misconceptions regarding
52:16
pastoral ministry?
52:17
SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily just about being exhausted,
52:20
SPEAKER_02: but what is something that is often misunderstood about that office?
52:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
52:25
SPEAKER_03: I think something I didn't understand until I got deep into it,
52:29
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:29
SPEAKER_03: probably 10 plus years into it is that it is a 24-7 job.
52:35
SPEAKER_03: Not that,
52:36
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:37
SPEAKER_03: things are happening 24-7,
52:39
SPEAKER_03: but much like a medical professional,
52:43
SPEAKER_03: you're on call,
52:44
SPEAKER_03: you know.
52:45
SPEAKER_03: And so...
52:47
SPEAKER_03: what was theoretical in the early days of,
52:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:49
SPEAKER_03: almost like joking,
52:50
SPEAKER_03: like,
52:51
SPEAKER_03: oh,
52:51
one of these days you're going to get the three o'clock in the
52:54
morning call.
52:54
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that became a reality.
52:57
You know,
52:57
I get the phone call from the new widow because she's telling
53:02
me he's dead,
53:03
he's dead.
53:04
SPEAKER_03: You know,
53:04
she's crying and screaming on the phone to me at three o'clock
53:08
in the morning from
53:12
SPEAKER_03: a hospital room.
53:14
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, having to
53:17
wake up pull my pants on you know get my mind around the fact
53:22
that i have to go now
53:23
comfort this grieving widow while her husband's dead body is
53:27
laying right there
53:28
with us who who by the way was also a dear friend of mine so
53:32
i'm having to kind of
53:33
SPEAKER_03: process this now as well you know um is um
53:40
SPEAKER_03: is the reality of pastoral ministry.
53:44
And in Peoria,
53:47
the church we went to was an older church when we got there.
53:51
The majority of the people were 55 years or older and older
53:55
emphasized like most of
53:56
SPEAKER_03: them were much older than 55.
53:59
But I was doing an average of a funeral every six months,
54:05
you know,
54:05
for 12 years.
54:08
SPEAKER_03: It didn't always work out that way,
54:09
SPEAKER_03: but if you took all the numbers and divided them up,
54:11
SPEAKER_03: that's how many,
54:12
SPEAKER_03: you know.
54:12
And it almost inevitably would happen right before I was
54:16
getting ready to leave on
54:17
SPEAKER_03: a trip,
54:18
SPEAKER_00: honestly.
54:19
SPEAKER_03: It's like,
54:20
SPEAKER_03: well,
54:20
I'm going to now schedule this trip shorter so that I can come
54:23
back and do this
54:23
SPEAKER_03: person who I love,
54:24
SPEAKER_03: do their funeral,
54:26
SPEAKER_03: you know.
54:28
Jared Wilson has this really great article on pastoral ministry
54:34
is more than a job.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: I think that is something similar to a title.
54:39
SPEAKER_03: I think it really is a helpful article.
54:43
SPEAKER_03: It's on,
54:44
SPEAKER_03: I think,
54:44
SPEAKER_03: for the church,
54:45
SPEAKER_03: or it might be TGC,
54:47
but it just is really helpful in laying out like it's more than
54:50
just a job.
54:51
And I think that's probably the miscalculation that some guys
54:55
make and the
54:56
SPEAKER_03: misinformation that church members have.
54:59
And as a pastor,
55:00
you know this,
55:00
you can't just hand that article to your people.
55:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:03
SPEAKER_03: You know, say like, here you go.
55:05
SPEAKER_03: This is something you need to understand, you know.
55:08
SPEAKER_03: But I almost wish we could.
55:10
I almost wanted to like hand it to somebody I knew I could
55:13
trust and say like,
55:14
SPEAKER_03: make sure everybody in the church sees this,
55:16
SPEAKER_03: you know.
55:18
SPEAKER_03: Um,
55:19
SPEAKER_03: and again,
55:19
SPEAKER_03: that seems self,
55:20
SPEAKER_03: that seems self,
55:21
SPEAKER_03: um,
55:21
SPEAKER_03: promoting or self,
55:24
SPEAKER_03: um,
55:24
SPEAKER_03: not promoting,
55:25
SPEAKER_03: but you know what I'm saying?
55:26
SPEAKER_03: Like, um, like, uh, poor me, you know, um, self loathing.
55:31
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm a, I'm a theologian.
55:34
SPEAKER_03: I should be good with words, but, but you know, like, um,
55:40
SPEAKER_03: I just think people don't realize that.
55:42
SPEAKER_03: And I think if I could just tag this on here as well,
55:47
churches really need to consider what vacation and sabbaticals
55:51
look like for their pastors.
55:54
My father-in-law pastored for 30 years without ever having a
55:59
sabbatical until he
56:00
SPEAKER_03: was forced into one.
56:02
and he ended up just for a year they don't mean forced like
56:06
somebody forced him
56:06
into it just the circumstances of life were such that he had to
56:09
almost take a year
56:10
off do a completely different job you know in his 60s he's
56:15
working on a loading
56:16
dock you know because they had to make ends meet but he wasn't
56:19
pastoring and some
56:21
of that was because he was burned out my mother-in-law was
56:24
burned out you know um
56:28
And I think churches need to consider every five to seven years
56:30
giving their
56:30
SPEAKER_03: pastors a sabbatical.
56:32
SPEAKER_03: And significant, you know, six, eight weeks off.
56:37
SPEAKER_03: Not that they're not doing anything.
56:38
I think even just to recharge their own mind and to rethink
56:42
through what is the
56:43
SPEAKER_03: direction of our church.
56:44
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's tasks that can be done during that time.
56:48
SPEAKER_03: But things that can't get done in the model of 24-7,
56:51
SPEAKER_03: I'm on call and I'm preparing a sermon every week.
56:55
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
56:59
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
57:00
SPEAKER_03: And the churches really need to consider that.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a really good point.
57:04
I will write a letter to your church and tell them they need to
57:07
do this,
57:07
brother.
57:08
SPEAKER_02: A letter of recommendation.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
57:12
There's like this never-stopping and never-ending weightiness
57:19
to the role that is hard to...
57:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't mean it to sound so exclusive,
57:26
SPEAKER_02: but there's this exclusive club among coaches,
57:31
SPEAKER_02: no matter what level you arise to,
57:34
SPEAKER_02: where it's like,
57:35
SPEAKER_02: I've been there too.
57:37
SPEAKER_02: And I think a similar sort of vibe,
57:39
SPEAKER_02: if I can use that word,
57:41
SPEAKER_02: is amongst pastors,
57:43
SPEAKER_02: where they kind of,
57:44
SPEAKER_02: they quote-unquote,
57:45
SPEAKER_02: they get it,
57:45
SPEAKER_02: they understand...
57:47
SPEAKER_02: the weightiness that you've shouldered for years,
57:51
SPEAKER_02: decades,
57:51
SPEAKER_02: and so on and so forth,
57:53
SPEAKER_02: preparing weekly sermons,
57:55
SPEAKER_02: going to make that visit like you just kind of mentioned,
57:57
SPEAKER_02: and then after that,
57:59
going on an appointment where someone's going to maybe complain
58:03
about some other
58:04
SPEAKER_02: thing that happened in the service,
58:06
SPEAKER_02: and having to navigate deep meditative study being that type of
58:13
SPEAKER_02: counselor voice to being also this peacemaking voice.
58:17
There's so many different ways that a pastor can be pulled or
58:22
weighed down.
58:23
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's not,
58:24
SPEAKER_02: again,
58:25
SPEAKER_02: not to make this some sort of therapy,
58:27
SPEAKER_02: self-pity session,
58:29
SPEAKER_02: but I think...
58:30
SPEAKER_02: It helps us understand that even as the church,
58:34
SPEAKER_02: the church has,
58:36
SPEAKER_02: like the church body,
58:37
SPEAKER_02: the laity,
58:38
SPEAKER_02: if you want to use that term,
58:39
SPEAKER_02: has such a significant role in the ministry,
58:42
SPEAKER_02: not just to recognize this,
58:45
SPEAKER_02: but to understand that they are being equipped to,
58:47
SPEAKER_02: quote-unquote,
58:48
SPEAKER_02: do the work of the ministry properly.
58:50
SPEAKER_02: alongside the pastor.
58:52
He's not the only minister amongst a congregation of lay workers,
58:57
so to speak.
58:59
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a really helpful point to make.
59:04
SPEAKER_02: And as, you know, based on your years in pastoral ministry, what
59:09
is something that you could pinpoint,
59:11
especially now as a teacher of theology.
59:15
SPEAKER_02: Why should a,
59:16
especially like a local rural church pastor who maybe not has
59:21
all of the bandwidth
59:23
SPEAKER_02: to take some time and study theology,
59:27
SPEAKER_02: why should they?
59:27
SPEAKER_02: Why should they prioritize it?
59:30
Why is it so important for their pulpit ministry to sort of
59:34
have this theological undercurrent?
59:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
59:37
SPEAKER_03: I think in one sense,
59:38
SPEAKER_03: one of my former pastors would say,
59:42
SPEAKER_03: you can't take anybody further than where you are yourself.
59:46
And so I think,
59:47
you know,
59:48
my ongoing learning needs to deepen my love and worship of God more.
59:56
So that I can take that into the pulpit and take that into the
1:00:00
counseling room and
1:00:01
SPEAKER_03: take that to the hospital room.
1:00:04
One of my dear friends,
1:00:08
they lost a child in utero and the wife had to birth this child.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_03: And that's just a...
1:00:15
SPEAKER_03: terribly sad thing to have to do.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_03: And,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_03: um,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_03: their pastor at the time,
1:00:20
SPEAKER_03: who was also my pastor at the time,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:00:23
SPEAKER_03: called and said,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_03: what can I do?
1:00:26
SPEAKER_03: And my friend responded, you've already done it.
1:00:28
Like you've already prepared our hearts for this by your
1:00:32
faithful preaching of
1:00:33
God's word in the faithful preaching of the sovereignty of God
1:00:37
and the providence
1:00:38
SPEAKER_03: of God and all things that,
1:00:40
And I thought that was such a helpful illustration of the task
1:00:47
of the pastor is to
1:00:49
SPEAKER_03: prepare people for suffering.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_03: And again, it kind of goes back to the point you were making earlier.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_03: Like in the West,
1:00:57
we don't suffer like our counterparts even today around the
1:01:02
world or even our heirs,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_03: those who came before us.
1:01:10
And so I think we live in such a comfortable lifestyle that's
1:01:17
even more important
1:01:18
SPEAKER_03: that we prepare our people for suffering.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_03: And so theology is the only way that we're going to do it.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_03: And certainly I don't mean theology absent from the Scripture.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean when I say theology.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
1:01:33
the theology that is derived from the Scripture and has been
1:01:36
meted out throughout
1:01:38
SPEAKER_03: church history that provides for us
1:01:42
the opposite of a God who is just scrambling a few steps ahead
1:01:46
of us to make sure
1:01:47
SPEAKER_03: that everything is going to work out.
1:01:52
That solid foundation in the heart of the pastor drives
1:01:57
doxological preaching,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_03: which drives doxological response,
1:02:04
SPEAKER_03: I think,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_03: from the congregation.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_03: Um,
1:02:10
SPEAKER_03: so when,
1:02:12
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:02:12
SPEAKER_03: we got the news that Amber had cancer,
1:02:15
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:02:16
SPEAKER_03: of course,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_03: in that moment,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_03: you're just broken in,
1:02:20
SPEAKER_03: in disbelief because,
1:02:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:02:23
SPEAKER_03: and,
1:02:23
SPEAKER_03: and the doctor says it's probably been there for two and a half,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_03: three years.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_03: It's like, what?
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: Like,
1:02:28
SPEAKER_03: But then you're eventually,
1:02:31
after you make the heartbreaking phone calls to your children
1:02:35
and to your in-laws
1:02:37
who are her parents and to your own parents and to your elders
1:02:42
and those kinds of things,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_03: you start to kind of just...
1:02:45
SPEAKER_03: Okay, what is it that I believe?
1:02:48
You start to marinate in the theology of who God is and that he
1:02:54
is good and that
1:02:58
SPEAKER_03: God is not doing something to you.
1:03:01
God is carrying you through the fallenness of this world into
1:03:08
the brightness of his glory,
1:03:11
SPEAKER_03: whether that is immediate or 20,
1:03:15
SPEAKER_03: 25 years from now,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_03: the refining of that.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_03: It gives purpose to those kinds of things, you know.
1:03:24
SPEAKER_03: So he is making us into the image of Christ.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_03: You know, I could die in a car accident on my way home from school today.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_03: And, you know...
1:03:40
SPEAKER_03: whatever suffering that means for my wife and family.
1:03:44
Um,
1:03:44
he's going to use that to refine their image,
1:03:48
the image of Christ in them,
1:03:50
you know?
1:03:51
SPEAKER_03: And,
1:03:51
SPEAKER_03: uh,
1:03:51
SPEAKER_03: if we don't have that perspective,
1:03:55
SPEAKER_03: if we,
1:03:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:03:55
SPEAKER_03: if I'm going to be blunt,
1:03:57
SPEAKER_03: if we don't have the God of classical theism,
1:04:00
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:04:00
SPEAKER_03: um,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_03: we're,
1:04:06
We're going to feel or experience a despair beyond the despair
1:04:13
that we feel
1:04:14
initially before we're kind of reminded and begin to marinate
1:04:17
in that reality.
1:04:19
I think it's important,
1:04:21
too,
1:04:21
to note that as pastor theologians,
1:04:25
if I can use that term,
1:04:26
We aren't aspiring to,
1:04:29
you know,
1:04:30
bring our deep notes on Calvin's Institutes into the pulpit.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_02: That's not the point.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_02: But studying theology gives one not just a grammar and a vernacular,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: but it gives them just this robust and deep and sharp ability—
1:04:48
SPEAKER_02: not only to meditate on the things of God, but to communicate them well.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_02: Part of that process is becoming a deep thinking theologian.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why,
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: I find it so important and I would counsel and encourage any,
1:05:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:05:04
SPEAKER_02: aspiring preacher or pastor,
1:05:08
take the time to wade deep into theology and don't just think
1:05:13
you can take those
1:05:13
lecture notes and bring them into the pulpit and it's going to
1:05:16
translate well.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_02: That's not the point.
1:05:18
But it kind of arms you with a vernacular to understand how to
1:05:24
convey this mammoth,
1:05:29
SPEAKER_02: this immense message of the gospel.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_03: Amen.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_03: No, that's exactly right, man.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: Well,
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: before we wrap up,
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: I have to ask you,
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: you wrote a book,
1:05:39
SPEAKER_02: Raised in Splendor,
1:05:39
SPEAKER_02: The Hope of Glorification for a Secular Age,
1:05:43
SPEAKER_02: which is just a fantastic subject.
1:05:46
Just talk about the process of writing the book,
1:05:49
but also kind of what the gist of it is.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_02: And why would you say glorification is maybe forgotten or overlooked?
1:05:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks, man.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: the process was,
1:06:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:06:03
I did my doctoral research on what has been tagged as escalated eschatology,
1:06:12
SPEAKER_03: that we're not heading back to the garden,
1:06:15
SPEAKER_03: we're heading to something greater,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_03: that the earth is not going to be renewed to garden-like existence,
1:06:23
SPEAKER_03: but something greater,
1:06:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:06:25
SPEAKER_03: in short.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_03: And as I did my research in that,
1:06:30
it just became very apparent that there are not many monographs
1:06:34
written on glorification.
1:06:37
So my intent was to write an academic book on the doctrine of
1:06:42
glorification because
1:06:45
SPEAKER_03: it's in our systematics,
1:06:48
but there's not a lot of single volumes that address the issue
1:06:51
of glorification necessarily.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_03: So in one sense,
1:06:54
SPEAKER_03: there was a deficiency in the literature,
1:07:00
SPEAKER_03: though there are works that are out there.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_03: Graham Cole's little introductory book in the Crossway series is great.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_03: There is a biblical studies volume by Haley Jacob that's a very good,
1:07:14
SPEAKER_03: from a biblical studies standpoint,
1:07:17
SPEAKER_03: What Does It Mean to Be Conformed to the Image of the Sun?,
1:07:20
SPEAKER_03: And then,
1:07:22
but sort of a one volume full treatment was the last one that
1:07:27
I'm aware of was
1:07:27
SPEAKER_03: Bernard Ram's Them He Glorified,
1:07:31
SPEAKER_03: which is published in 1966 and out of print.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_03: So I thought it would be good to do an academic treatment.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_03: No publisher in the world, though, thought it was a good idea.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_03: So I came back around to my first ask, which was B&H academic.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_03: And one of my friends was the academic editor at the time.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_03: And I said, well, his name is Madison.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_03: I said, Madison, what if we did a popular level treatment of it?
1:07:59
SPEAKER_03: And he wasn't opposed to the academic idea.
1:08:02
It was just it needed to be in a series and nobody who was
1:08:05
editing a series wanted to do it.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_03: So he said, yeah, let's let's go down that route.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_03: And so eventually B&H said, yeah, let's do it.
1:08:13
And so I began to write that before we found out about Amber's
1:08:20
cancer and then
1:08:20
SPEAKER_03: throughout her diagnosis and treatment.
1:08:24
So that kind of comes up in the book a little bit and makes it
1:08:26
a little more sort
1:08:28
SPEAKER_03: of experiential for us in many ways.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not talked about a lot.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_03: It hasn't been talked about a lot.
1:08:37
We've done a lot on justification and sanctification,
1:08:39
and praise God,
1:08:41
man.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we need a recovery of reformational justification.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_03: I think the last 20 to 30 years has seen such a great resurgence of that.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_03: Sanctification is another area that's,
1:08:53
SPEAKER_03: as you know,
1:08:54
SPEAKER_03: sort of a debated topic on what it is,
1:08:59
SPEAKER_03: but nonetheless,
1:09:00
SPEAKER_03: it gets talked about.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_03: But glorification is one that is not often talked about.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_03: And so I thought Christians need to know what glorification is.
1:09:13
And they need to not just be of the mindset that to be so
1:09:18
heavenly minded that
1:09:19
SPEAKER_03: you're no earthly good.
1:09:21
We actually need to be of the mindset that we're so heavenly
1:09:23
minded that we're the
1:09:24
SPEAKER_03: most earthly good.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_03: And that to have that eternal perspective,
1:09:28
SPEAKER_03: as it were,
1:09:29
SPEAKER_03: is really helpful in regard to our own sanctification,
1:09:32
SPEAKER_03: as John says in 1 John,
1:09:33
SPEAKER_03: that those who have this hope purify themselves.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_03: And as well, that we should not be satisfied with earthly treasures.
1:09:47
That our ultimate treasure is the beatific vision to see the
1:09:52
glory of the triune
1:09:52
SPEAKER_03: God in the face of Jesus Christ.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_03: And
1:09:56
SPEAKER_03: That is our goal.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_03: It's not just disembodied spirits floating in heaven,
1:10:02
SPEAKER_03: experiencing the glory of God,
1:10:04
SPEAKER_03: whatever that means.
1:10:05
It's very specifically to be fully conformed to the resurrected
1:10:10
and glorified human
1:10:13
SPEAKER_03: nature of Christ.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_03: That's what it's going to be.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, resurrection obviously comes up in that.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_03: That's been talked about, of course, as well.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_03: But I just thought,
1:10:25
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:10:26
SPEAKER_03: if I'm not going to get to write an academic treatment on this,
1:10:28
let me write a popular level and maybe it'll even get to more
1:10:31
people in the pews
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: that way.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_02: So.
1:10:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you're right.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: It is somewhat of this neglected,
1:10:37
SPEAKER_02: and maybe not even intentionally,
1:10:39
SPEAKER_02: but there's so much focus goes on justification and sanctification,
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: rightfully so in many ways,
1:10:44
that we often forget about that all-important glorification
1:10:51
part in Romans 8 or whatever.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's very needed.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_03: Well,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_03: and I think as well,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_03: because of the controversy and sanctification,
1:11:02
SPEAKER_03: which the next book I'm going to write,
1:11:05
SPEAKER_03: or at least the next book for now,
1:11:08
SPEAKER_03: maybe there'll be one in between this one and the next one at some point,
1:11:12
SPEAKER_03: because the next one's not coming out until 2028,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_03: but...
1:11:16
It's going to be on the whole idea of good works,
1:11:19
and how does that fit in there?
1:11:21
But I just wanted people to see their glorification grounded in
1:11:25
justification and
1:11:26
SPEAKER_03: not in sanctification,
1:11:27
that I'm not going to be glorified because of how well I do
1:11:32
here on earth.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_03: So Romans 8, those whom he justified, he also glorified.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_03: And as you know, it's in the past tense.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's really good.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: Hey,
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: man,
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: it's like an hour and 10 minutes in,
1:11:46
and we haven't even talked about the fact that you and I both
1:11:49
know Raphael.
1:11:50
What do you want to – I was going to say,
1:11:53
what do you want to share about Raphael here?
1:11:55
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just kidding.
1:11:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, man.
1:11:57
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to shout out anything?
1:12:00
SPEAKER_03: My brother with the coolest accent ever, man.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we did our – Raphael and I did our PhD work together.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_03: At least we overlapped for a little bit.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, wonderful brother and so thankful –
1:12:12
SPEAKER_03: how far apart are you guys?
1:12:13
SPEAKER_02: He is about an hour north of me.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_02: Not too far.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_03: No.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_03: Great brother.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_03: Thankful.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_03: He had you on his podcast, right?
1:12:25
SPEAKER_03: And then he had me on as well.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_03: And so no, love, uh, love that brother.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_03: And so thankful for him.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_03: And, um,
1:12:34
SPEAKER_03: Man, the Christian world is so small, it just keeps getting smaller.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_03: When I met Raphael,
1:12:40
SPEAKER_03: we had so many similar connections before I even knew you,
1:12:43
SPEAKER_03: actually,
1:12:44
SPEAKER_03: in that connection.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_03: I'm a city guy, so I know a lot of inner-city pastors.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_03: For lack of a better way of saying it,
1:12:56
SPEAKER_03: I've got a lot of friends that have darker melanin than me.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, so we know a lot of those same people.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_03: I served,
1:13:06
SPEAKER_03: and I was in the city of Peoria,
1:13:08
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:13:09
SPEAKER_03: so we had a very sort of,
1:13:12
SPEAKER_03: by the time we were done,
1:13:13
SPEAKER_03: a pretty multi-ethnic church,
1:13:15
and so lots for him and I to talk about and a lot of the same
1:13:18
connections in that way.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_02: He's a good pastor,
1:13:20
SPEAKER_02: theologian friend,
1:13:21
SPEAKER_02: so I'm glad that,
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: the Christian world is sometimes really small,
1:13:26
SPEAKER_02: and when I realized that we had that common connection,
1:13:29
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_02: man,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: what a small world the church is.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_02: Indeed, indeed.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_02: Hey, man, I'm really thankful for your time.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_02: Thankful for this conversation.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_02: So thanks for coming on today.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks a lot, brother.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_03: God bless.
1:13:43
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
1:13:45
I hope you've been blessed by this episode of the Ministry
1:13:47
Minded Podcast.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_02: Make sure you're subscribed either over on Apple Podcasts,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_02: Spotify,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_02: or right here on Substack,
1:13:54
SPEAKER_02: wherever you get your podcasts.
1:13:55
SPEAKER_02: Make sure to click subscribe.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate all of your encouragement, your support.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_02: Send me comments if you want.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_02: There's always,
1:14:04
if you're ever interested in sort of suggesting new ideas or
1:14:08
topics for shows,
1:14:10
SPEAKER_02: and make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes.
1:14:12
SPEAKER_02: Until then, I will see you on the next episode.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_02: Blessings.