Latest / The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine / Derek Webb

Transcript

Derek Webb · The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: We're going out's like a war zone. I hope everybody
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: comes home.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: You and Nevin know.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Which neighbors gone out turn on you.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Today, we've got a good friend Derek Webb with us. Derek,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: this is not your first time on the podcast.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: It's not.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be like at least third, like three times.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I can think of three times that you've been on
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: this podcast now, but maybe maybe four. I have no
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: idea whose county is.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: I don't well, I'm not certainly. And this is one
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: of those this like whenever I do this with you,
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: it really truly is one of those rare things where
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: it's like when you pop up on the screen, I'm like,
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: oh my god, there's Mason. It's like you're like somebody
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: who I both really admire and love from Afar, but
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: also we've got to be friends, and so I've gotten
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: to love you close up. And I'm not trying that's
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: not euphemism for anything, but I just mean, like I
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: I it's not. It's so it's different like when I
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: get to see you and we get to have conversations,
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: it's like, man, I get to hang out with my
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: friend Mason, and.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I love that you know I've thought about this before.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe you think maybe somebody'd be friends. Bro, if we
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: live in the same town, we would hang out. I'm
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: literally about this. You're you're stealing the words out of
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: my mouth. Man, I'm literally about to say. If we
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: lived in the same town, you would be somebody I
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: would hit up every single weekend.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: It would hang out all time.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Is there is Derek? Is Derek ready to go to
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: a dive bar this weekend or whatever? Like I you're
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: the kind of person I might be the single weekend
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: if we lived.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: And getting me out to a dive bar. And because
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've I've I've logged my hours in dive
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: bars in Nashville. But if you were lived in town
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: and you called me, I'd be like, where we go
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: on East Side, somewhere where we go and I would
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: totally meet you over there.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I'm all about it. You know, I could have been
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: in Nashville last week for there was an event that
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: was like yeah and all you know a lot of
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: people that we know in love were there, and I'm
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: like I should have been there, and I could have
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: the job that I work for, Like we could have
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: gotten the table kind of messing and I just like, now,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh god, I didn't realize all my friends
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: were going to be there and it was into Nashville
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: and I could have like hung out with you and
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: all you know, Kevin max is in.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's also tough though, because like when you when
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: there's a thing like that, you don't ever have time
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: to do anything you want to do, and you don't
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: ever have time to see anybody you want to see,
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: because a thing like that can be super consuming and.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Everybody, Yeah, you're you're hanging out with everybody and before
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: you know it like another thing.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: And I'm trying not to take it personally. But I
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: didn't hear from any of those people. Nobody, nobody, nobody.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Hit me up like don't don't take it personally, don't
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: take it. I don't or take it personally. I don't care,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Like however, you want to love you, you and your
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: therapist exactly. No.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: I love these people and they're good friends. And I
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: totally when I'm bro. When I'm I do a ton
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: of traveling and I don't keep I don't remember who's
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: in which towns always like you and I do because
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I'll stay at your house. Some you know some of
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: the time. Yeah, but it's like a lot so I
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: strongly associate you with where you live. But like a
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: lot of my friends, I don't even know they're there
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: and so, and I love these people and I would
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: love to see them, and I'm in and out of
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: their town and maybe I post about it and they're like,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: well he didn't call me. That's cool. I totally get it,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I will say I'm the I'm the kind of friend
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: that you know, like for example, like when you release
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: like a tour announcement or whatever, and you got all
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: these dates. I'm specifically looking for the Twin City. Yeah,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: if I see a Twin Cities date, I will literally
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: then like make sure, like okay, got to make sure
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: those like dates are pretty free, you know, and obviously,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: like I can't guarantee that every time, but like for
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: the most part, I'm trying my best. And you have
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: all right, I know Derek's going to be around. I
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: put that in my calendar right away, like just to
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: make note Derek's gonna be around if something else happens,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Like I get it, whatever, But like I just want
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: to know who my friends are that are going to
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: be coming in town. I want to. And you're one
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: of those those people that anytime he's one of those
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: people all, you know, a lout of our friends, like
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: you're the kind of person that if you're ever in
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the Twin Cities, I will make note of that and
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: then try to, as you know, as best as I
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: can try to navigate to in the right way.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: I can't always help what's out of our control. But yes,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: all that was to say, oh my god, I'm so
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: happy to be back on the podcast. That's all I
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: really I could have just said that.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: But anyway, Well, but now we're four minutes in and
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: now I've got less content.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: But it's content. They made some content just now though.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: That's good, right, love it. Well, let's let's talk about
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: survival songs. Newest album, All Out Ready to Go. Spend
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: a couple of years now since Jesus Hypothesis. In fact,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: I literally have Jesus hypothesis. The vinyl like I've got
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: one of those you know, like you got everybody's got
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: those record shells, and then you've got like this, the
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: little slim version that you see of the vinyl. I
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: also have these little vinyl stands and one of my
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: vinyl stands has so it is out in the open
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: for all the people that walk into the living room,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: they all see Jesus Hypothesis.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying if they could even notice it in
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: that living room, because it is epic.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It is a great living room there. It is one
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: of those things like people walk by and they like
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: to see, like what mine is, and they see they
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: see Jesus Anthesis plow proudly front and center.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: It's very sweet of you. You're so you're right.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well both, actually you're I think you might be
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: next to Flamey too. I just like I got when
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: when I when I saw you guys last, like what
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: was that a year and a half ago or so
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: when we got to got to hang out with you all,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: and I was like, I gotta make sure to get vinyl,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: and we got your vinyl and here we are.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah and yeah, and so like literally like what feels
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: like five minutes ago, a new record came out and.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: I know, I can't believe it. It was like it's like
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: what two again, like two years and here we are,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: like a new album.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: I know, well, and it's like back in the day
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: when I was a younger man. Like in my early
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: solo days, I was I would put out a record
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: every twelve months almost. I mean that was like, I mean,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: it was like it was like clockwork. Like the Beatles, hey,
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: I mean they were putting out a record like every
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: three months. But but yes, in order to get all
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: that out during the few years they were But but yeah,
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: it's it's it's not I don't I can't ever predict.
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: You know, I've had this conversation before, Like all I
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: ever do is look at the world and try to
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: describe it. And I will go years sometimes without anything
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: in particular to say about it and or know what
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: to say or whatever.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: And so what do you think that output? I've always wondered,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: like when I think about like the Beatles or you know,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: some of those bands from like the sixties and seventies that, yeah,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: like you mentioned like literally putting out multiple albums yea
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: they did. Yeah, And you're talking about like, I mean
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: when you were a young guy, like you're putting out
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: an album every twelve months. Is there something about to me?
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Like I think about this, like is it because I
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: hear this often right like you you you know, we
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: interview bands called interview bands and then they like put
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: out like an album every eighteen months max. Right, of course?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Is it something where it's just there are that many
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: ideas when you're eighteen, nineteen, twenty twenty one years old,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: or is it something where you just have less inhibition
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: to like there's less of an editorial process that's happening
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: when you're that age versus when you're almost like one, right,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: it is, right like it? Or is both of those
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: things happening? But I'm just curious, like for that output
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: at that young age, is it just the like you
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: actually have that many good ideas because they've been storing
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: up for all those many years, right, and you just
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: haven't been able to let it out. And now you're
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: finally like twenty one and you like got professional equipment
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: and you've got professional producers and stuff, and you're finally
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: able to let it out. Or is it something where uh, yeah,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: you just like you don't have any inhibition because you're
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: that age and it's everything's brand new and you just
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: like don't give a yes. Is it a combination of
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: both of those things? I'm just curious, like what is
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: it about both for maybe for you and maybe just
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: from you, what you know from other arts around that time,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: like when they're that page that we're just putting out
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: so much.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: At that time, right, I think it's got to be
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: a lot of both, and I think it's like, so
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: there are some just some basic realities to it, Like
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I think very practically about this, and so for me,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: the the the rhythm of album cycles tends to be
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: when have I exhausted a project in terms of my
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: ability to tour it and whenever already I've been to
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: these cities twice now already with the same record, and
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: so I need to have new music out, Like there
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: is a real reality to the album cycle. And I
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: think most most album cycles tend to are orbiting around
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: with touring and everything else, and so it all has
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: to kind of make sense. And so you need new
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: records to give people an excuse to come see you again,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: because otherwise they're not going to come back out for
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: no reason or just to hear you play the songs
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: they know apparently like and so I think there's some
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: of that. I do think I part of or when
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: you first was talking about were talking about this, I
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: was thinking, like, when you're younger, you just have more
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: time on your hands, you have more recreational time, and
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: so you can just sit around and songs can come out.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: But I so, of course I did just say that
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: because I'm telling you what I was thinking originally. But
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: I don't actually think that's necessarily true, because as I've
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: gotten older, and then when I start having kids, and
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: when life gets more complicated and you have more things
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: taking up your time, I have found that I've just
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: gotten way more efficient with a little bit of time.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: When I was younger, I had this delusion that I
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: needed just hours and hours and days and days that
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: I could just waste waiting, just rummaging through you know,
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: the uh you know, the thrift store bins of ideas
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: in my mind to find the good stuff to write
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: songs about.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: It's a lot easier to do when you don't have
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: to drop off and pick up kids from.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Like or like the one hour you get between naps
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: or whatever, you know, like so like, yeah, and I
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: used to think I needed all this, I needed to
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: waste a bunch of time to get the little nuggets
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: of something usable. And I later just learned that that's
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: just not true. Like that might be an ideal way
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: to do it like, sure, wouldn't anybody want to just
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: sit around? But I've had to get over the years
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: more efficient at it, and I have and I've managed
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: to say, well, I've only got these couple of hours
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: this week, and I really got to sit down and
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: get something done and I can. I used to think
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: it was more like, oh, it's magic and the lightning's
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: got to strike. I think that's like a delusion of youth.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: I've learned later that like, you can get it done.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: You just you can get it done. That's not to
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: say there isn't like magic circumstances that sure, that would
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: be great, but we don't all live in a magical world.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Only only twenty somethings live in a magical world. And
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: I don't live in a magical world anymore. So I
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: have to just get shit done.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: With that efficiency. You know, I've heard there's an artist
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: named Tyson Mattens Matts and Baker. I don't know if
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: you've heard of it. He's great. He's out of the
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest. He's good friends with John Foreman, and he
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: mentioned once a few years ago on the podcast it
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: because he knows John Fleeman. He said that John and
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know if this is true of John anymore,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: like that very well could be. But at one point
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: John would commit to writing a song every single day,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: writing a whole new song with new lyrics, new riff,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: new or like whole thing, right, And obviously that means
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: that ninety percent of everything that he's ever written will
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: never hear the light of day exact outside of himself. Right.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: But what it did do is it forced him to
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: how do I write lyrics better? How do I And
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: there's just something about like he I mean there's maybe
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: like different ways of you know, I think about this
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: from like just like a sports standpoint, Like you can
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: practice every single day, right, and if you practice every
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: single day because you don't have rest days or whatever,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: like you're going to have to just like like do
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: what you can every single day. And then there's some
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: people that like they'll take their rest days or whatever,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: and when they do practice, it's to be highly efficient,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: it's going to get the most out of it, versus
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: somebody who's just gonna do it every single day, right,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: And I kind of think like there's maybe different approaches there, right,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Like John was definitely in the approach of like I'm
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: just gonna do it every single day. It could be
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: total crap, it could not be And then there's some
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: people who are like, I'm only gonna do it when
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: I know it's gonna be, like it's going to be good, right,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: And that's a whole that's a different approach, right. So yeah,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: like it sounds like there's an efficiency and I don't
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: know where you land on that, but like there's an
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: efficiency there that you have to just figure out, like
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: what's going to be efficient? Right?
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: And yeah, so you do, you learn yourself when you
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: do it for a lot of years, and John certainly
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: has I have for a lot of years. And you know,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: I think John Foreman and I are probably the two
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: polar opposite ends of the spectrum because John is kind
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: of renowned for this partly because of the hair, right,
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: sure exactly, Yeah you don't have hair, you know, look
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: at you. You know what it's like to be renowned
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: for a head of hair.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Maybe if you just served more you would have just
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: like kept it for maybe.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Maybe or if I didn't you know, get a sunburn
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: if without walking briskly to the mailbox. But anyway, like
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: like John is like very well known for being hyper prolific.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: I've just you know, I've heard like the mythology of
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: like Ryan Adams, you know, where he'll be in making
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: a record and he'll have like they're choosing from thirty songs,
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: and they'll go to lunch and he'll stay behind in
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the studio and they'll come back forty five minutes later
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: he's written two new songs and now they're I mean,
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: like it, really, I've heard.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Like these crazies that sounds like a John Foreman exactly.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Where you can't even possibly even keep up with how
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: you forget You've written so many songs you don't even
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: remember ever writing some of them and not some of
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: them never even get But and I am the exact opposite.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: I literally I am lucky to write ten songs every
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: two years in order to make a record. And John,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: as you said, probably eighty percent of what he's written
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: will will never hear because there's just there's there's no
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: efficient way to capture and deliver all that. There's just
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: is no way to do it. I am the opposite.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've written a song. I don't think
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: i've ever I could maybe count one hand in thirty
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: five years, I've done this job that I have finished
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: a song that has not been released. Wow, I am
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: like John will have treasure troves of rarities that will
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: come in. He's going to be like one of these
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: rap artists that you know, twenty years after his death,
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: they'll still be releasing new albums. Yeah, and like I
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: literally you've heard everything. Almost every song I've ever finished,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: You've heard it. If you're look, if you're if you're listening,
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: you're you've heard. You've heard all of it. And so
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: I'm extremely different, Like I can barely manage to write
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: the ten I need for an album every couple of years.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: It's like, wow, when you when you like, when you're out,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: you're you deliver.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: I mean I just when I'm doing it, I it,
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: it gets done, and then I literally don't do it
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: and till I'm doing it again. And that's like and
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I and I don't. I used to. I used to
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: stress about it. I used to go like I'd get
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: a few months in and be like, I haven't written
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: literally anything down. I've not typed a word of anything
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: like lyrics or anything, no ideas, I haven't I haven't
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: played any new parts on guitars and then and I
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: used to stress about it. And but but observing my
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: rhythm of how I do this for many many years
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: and many many dozens of albums of cycles, I've just
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: learned that that's just how it is. And so I
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: just don't stress. I enjoy my life way more now
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: because I finish a record and I'm just like relieved.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, well I got I got another
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: ten songs, fantastic, like I got one more record out,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: and then it literally feels like that's it for like
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: I'm done forever, and and I am kind of done
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: forever with that. And I tend to be very thematic
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: and very topical, and so my records like are really consuming,
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: and so like i'll I make I only make concept records,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: like I don't ever make collections of songs that are
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: just own little random pieces. I don't do that. I
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: never have. I always make collections. I'd rather say one
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: thing ten ways than ten things. That's just how I
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: do it. And that's a little old fashioned. But and
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: so when I get to the end of an album cycle,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: I give it. I gave it everything everything I had,
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: and I have nothing left. I hold nothing back and
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I have nothing else, and I'm just I just sit
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: on empty for like months and years sometimes and then
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: and then all at once, I'll just write an album
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: and then that and then I and then I got
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: more and I did it again. And actually, speaking of
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: fible songs, this album was different than every other one
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: I've ever written in that it happened faster. The process
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: was was insanely faster than I've ever experienced in thirty
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: five years I've done this year. Wow, I mean I
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: I it's it usually all happens kind of at once.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: It's concentrated. I'll start writing and maybe over months I'll
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: kind of put it together and I'll focus and I'll
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: think about it. I get I kind of get a theme,
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: I get a idle, and I kind of start to
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: work it out with survival songs. I went into the
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: beginning of the year twenty twenty five through January, I've
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: been thinking and this is kind of the way its
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: felt to me. Is like I spent most of the
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: previous year twenty twenty four looking at the world. I
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: said before a job description I like for myself, for
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: creative people is to look at the world and describe it.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: That you know, just tell us what you see. Look
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: at the world. And I was looking at the world
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: all of twenty twenty four, and really, you know, for
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: a while, and I think this is a lot of people.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: And I had no idea what to say. I had
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: no idea how to describe it. I did not have language.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: I didn't know where to start. The analogy I've been
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: kind of sitting with lately, as it's like when you're
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: driving down the highway and the Serpentine belt breaks and
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: every gauge turns on and like the car just goes
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: into total It's like kernel panic and you have to
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: just pull the thing over. You don't even know where
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: to start. Everything broke all at one time. It's like
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: looking around the world the last couple of years, it
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: feels like everything is on fire every In other words,
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: you have to be running, but you don't know where
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: to run towards, because everything is an emergency. And that's
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: how it's felt to me for a lot of reasons.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: And as in my work, I want to be writing,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: and I want to be contributing, and i want to
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: be helping, and I'm not unfamiliar with writing protest songs.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: I've done it a lot in my career. I didn't
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: even know where to start. I didn't even know what
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: to protest. It's like that, there's been so much and
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: and so I went into I started the year that way.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: I'd spent the whole previous year that way, really wanting
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: to work, and I couldn't. I just I couldn't. I
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: didn't know what to do. And what I realized is
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: that when you really look hard and you sit long enough,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: you realize that that for you. For me personally, there
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: was one fire that was taller than all the other ones,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: and it was in front of all the other ones,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: and I couldn't see past it to all the other
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: ones even really, and it needed my attention first, and
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: it was the most urgent thing for me, The thing
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: that I was the most, was the most personal, the
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: thing I was the most that And so for me,
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: that was living in twenty twenty five as I was
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: looking at my queer friends, my family members, my loved ones,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: and especially young people, queer youth, and how impossible and
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: stressed and squeezed the world is for queer adolescent people
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: right now, and increasingly so. Because you've always had the
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: church on your back. But now you've got the government
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: simultaneously telling you that you don't exist, but also we're
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: going to weaponize you. And it's like it's just the
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: most and that part of life is hard enough without
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: all those additional layers of complexity.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: They got to deal with crushes and pimple yes, I mean,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: and all the things about like yeah, getting picked last
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: gym class, Like they got to deal with all that.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: Shit, figuring yourself out for the first time, like for
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: the first time, putting your idea, like figuring your idea idiot,
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: and figuring out what where you belong and kind of
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: who you are and anyway that once I realized that
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: for me, like in other words, does the world need
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: entire albums about the history of women's rights? Absolutely does
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: the does the does the world need an entire album
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: about what's happening in Palestine? Absolutely? Does the world need
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: an entire album about what's happening in immigrant communities, absolutely,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: people of color, marginalized people. It all needs whole albums, Absolutely,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: it does. For me, the tallest fire and the one
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: I needed to deal with first for me personally, the
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: one that was the most personal to me, where I
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: really felt like I had something to contribute, was writing
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: songs that I hoped could be sound encouraging, empowering, soundtrack
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: for queer kids, and so that, and so I started February.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: By the top of February, I was thinking, I hope
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: to write a record this year. Second half of the year,
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I'll record a record, maybe tour. First half year, I'll
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: do something else.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I had.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: We had other plans for a too, and everything else.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: And then as soon as that kind of crystallized for
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: me in terms of like where where I needed to
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: be focusing my potentially my work time and what I
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: knew to try to write about, the survival songs came
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: out of me. I started writing the first song and
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: by the end of three weeks it was recorded. That's
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: how quick it was. Wow, it's extremely fast. It's never
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: been so fast.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: So you really, you like truly started in twenty twenty five.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Then yes, at the beginning of February, I started writing
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: the songs. By the end of February it was recorded.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Wow, it was done and then out and then out
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, as quick as we could.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: It's quick, as quick as management would let me put
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: it out, and not completely undermine their ability to help
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: you promote it and to get a tour on the
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: books and all the things you have to think about.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: Like I wanted to just recklessly come in and just
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: it was an emergency. It was an emergency, and and
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: and I couldn't do it quick enough. And my body
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: literally felt and it knew it, and it just delivered
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: it and out it came. And I literally the first
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: weekend that I had free that we didn't have the
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: kids and I didn't have shows, and it was my
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: first free weekend after I had finished the song, so
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: this would have been like end of February. I called
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: up some friends who own like who run like short
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: term rentals airbnbs in different parts of Nashville, and I
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: was like, Hey, is there any chance that y'all have
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: a house somewhere in town that's just not occupied for
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: the weekend that I could get into to do some work.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: And they because I need to get focused, Like if
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: I try to do it around here where there's dog, cat, animals, children,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: there's life, it's just it's busy. I need to get
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: somewhere and get focused. And they were like, yeah, we've
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: got a house on the east side nobody's in it
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: you can. And so I took my twelve track recorders.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I did not record this into a computer like I
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: took my twelve track recorder. I took a couple of
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: guitars and a tambourine and a khane and I went
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: to this house and I moved in there for two
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: and a half days, and I slept and ate and
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: just trying to and I recorded the whole album in
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: like three days and then mixed it. I've never done
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: that either, never mixed one of my records before. I've
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: don't never trusted myself to do it. But I was like,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I'm in a hurry, and so I got to get
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: this done, and so I don't have time to wait
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: for someone's schedule to open up. I mixed it and
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: then I actually had uh Tim walshg w Walsh, who
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: was a founding member, paid with the Lion and a
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: pal master it and then it came out a couple
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: of weeks ago, quick as I could.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Wow it so well, Okay, there's multi multiple things I
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: want to go with this. But first thing is you
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: mentioned just a second ago you you literally you like
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: took all your stuff to like an airbnbl R and
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: started recording. Just imagine twenty years ago trying to do
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: that with a professional sounding album, right, Well, you could,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: like you just you couldn't. You couldn't have done that.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: And like now we are in a place where you
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: can literally just like take like some like equipment that
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: probably can fit in a suitcase, and you can make
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: something sound amazing in some random ass person's house, right,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Like that's that's an amazing thing that we are. Like
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: there at no point in like human history when it
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: comes to human history making and recording music, have we
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: ever been in that point and we are now at
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: a point where you can actually do that. That's also
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: like just that like part of it is amazing.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: It is amazing. And like literally the thing I recorded
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: on it's sitting on the desk in front of me.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: It fit in the front seat of my car. I mean,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I mean everything I made the record with fit into
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: my car, and my car is not very big, and
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: I and I fit I mean including mike stands and cables,
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: I mean everything was everything was in the car.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Like imagine like when you were first like recording with
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Cabman's right, like this big nice studio, right, like, and
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: there's no way you could have ever thought like somebody's
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: house can just do this.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: No, it wasn't.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: But you're just like, we're now technologically just in a
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: place where we can do that.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: That's amazing, is amazing. And here's what's great about it
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: is with this record, because I knew that I was
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: feeling this incredible urgency, I didn't. I knew I did.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I couldn't get precious with it, and I couldn't take
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: too long. I didn't want to. And so you and
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: when you're making records the way that people typically do
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: and the way I typically have over the years, when
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: you're doing it in pro tools or in a computer
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: or whatever, and you can like add a lot of things.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: You can layer things, and you can correct and fix
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: and tune and quantize things, and you can and you
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: can get obsessive about it. And I just knew I
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: needed it done quick, and so I didn't need to
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: and so I took Basically my thought was, and I've
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: always kind of thought this, but here in twenty twenty five,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: we are We've arrived, as you said, at the moment
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: where the technology is now makes it possible that like
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: I was thinking, back to like how much fun I
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: had when I was like in junior high and high
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: school and I had like cassette four tracks and it
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: was It wasn't the most incredible sounding thing, but it
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: you learn how to do it. You learn kind of
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: how to you could you could, you know, externalize your
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: your feelings and get them out where somebody else can
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: hear them, and you can make it sound. You can
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: figure out I make it sound like you want, and
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: it was really fun. I loved experimenting. I always had
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: a four track or an eight track when I was
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: in high school, and I used to play with those.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I loved it. And incredibly, they don't pay me. They
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: didn't give me a discount on this or anything. But
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Task Scam, which had been making these this this kind
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: of gear for as long as I've probably been alive.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: They make a thing and they make some some gear
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: now and this thing is called a Model twelve and
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: it's twelve. It's a twelve track standalone recorder, that's what
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: it is. It literally records to an SD card like
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: this right here. This This is my entire my entire album.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: It's on this literally this that my whole album is
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: on this and anyways, so and uh and that's and
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: so I got I picked one up for like four
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: or five hundred dollars because I was like, I think
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I want to make the record on this. I'm just
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: gonna And I didn't even know how to use it yet.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: And I just took it and a bunch of cables
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: and some guitars and just set it all up in
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: this house and recorded every in just a few days.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: And yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy that it's possible. And
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: it was perfect for this record because it winds up
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: like kind of retaining an authenticity and a vulnerability. And
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: there's something about records that were made before a certain
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: point in history where the techno where we had the
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: technology to fix and tune and correct and quantitize. It
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: feels my favorite records that were made in this previous
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: kind of bygone era era. Now they feel like they're
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: being made as you're listening to them, like because because
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: there's imperfection and because the guy's not always right on
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: pitch or right on beat, you feel like it's kind
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: of it feels live. It feels like it's happening right
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: now as it's coming into your headphones. Someone somewhere performing this.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: And so every time I listen to certain records, they
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: sound they're like they're alive to me, and I was
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: hoping to get some of that magic. And when I
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: go back and listen to these songs, it feels that way,
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: like it's really you know, like you can't even barely
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: punch in and out on this thing, Like you have
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: to get whole, full, full song takes of stuff when
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: you're recording. So like everything on this album, I played
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: every instrument on it. My wife sang a ton of
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: background vocals after the fact. I brought it home and
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: she did a ton of amazing vocal arrangement stuff. That's
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: the only thing on it. And but it has that
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: quality to me, I can hear that, basically is to say,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: I can hear that all that imperfection, but but it does.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: It has like there's something magic about hearing something that
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: isn't fixed. It's got all that humanity and vulnerability on it,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: and I'm so I'm glad that that was forced onto
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: this record, you know too.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. I mean,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: that's it's what draws me a lot to music. Yeah,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: whether it's something even more kind of like singer songwriter
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: acoustic stuff or even like honestly like heavy metal stuff
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: like it doesn't matter, and a lot of times you
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: get like that rawness. Yeah it's beautiful.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: I totally agree.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. So, you know, as you're talking
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: about kind of you know, especially within especially within your
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: solo career, like every album essentially almost being like a
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: concept album. Does it feel like I'm just curious, like
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: just how how songs come about? Is it one of
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: those things because it's conceptual, Like you know that there's
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: like certain themes that you're really going to be focusing
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: on with each and every song. Do the lyrics come
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: first for you? Or is it something where like that
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: guitar riff starts coming to you and then you write
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: lyrics around that, Like how how does each and everyone?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And maybe it's both Like I'm just curious, like how,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: especially knowing that this is something like conceptual, the lyrics
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: matter in this right, like that there's a theme that
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: you're trying to get across lyrically. Is it something where
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: just the lyrics are coming first and then you figure
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: out all the music instrumentation or is it something where
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: more or less the music, insiration, instrumentation has already been there,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: and then now you're starting to write lyrics on it
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: just or again, maybe it's something where it's a little
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: bit both in but I'm just curious what does that
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: look like, especially for this newest album.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, for me it has almost always my experience,
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: and everybody I know that does this kind of work,
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: it's different, and for me it has typically always come
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: together like I don't I don't stockpile either. I don't
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: stockpile guitar riffs and parts, and I don't really stockpile
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: lines and lyrics too much. I mean, not very much
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: of it, not anything meaningful, like maybe a few words
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: here or there. But what happens is once I get
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: in my head, I will kind of conceptualize what the
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: sound is or what I'm going for or something that's
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: been especially like inspiring or i'm or or maybe even
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: just like a creative approach to how I want to
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: make it, which there's certain tools I want to use,
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: and sometimes that's been programming, and it's been drum machines
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: and so there's different things. But once I have the
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: tools kind of set out or in my mind, I
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: have some idea what that sound is. Then the lyrics
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: kind of come with melodies and comes kind of in
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: my mind. They're showing up in the style of whatever
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I have kind of imagined for it from from the
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: get go, and so and so and so for this thing,
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: And you know, it's interesting. So you and I were
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: talking just before we started recording. We were talking about
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: artists that we like. And one that came up that
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: I'm just thinking back now that you mentioned because it
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: seems really relevant to me right now is Justin Vernon Bonaver,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: who I'm a huge fan of, but so good, insanely good.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Justin is just like on another level. But what's interesting
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: is most people found Bonaver when for Emma came out.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: That was the big debut, big record, and apparently, and
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: I did not know that, Justin was apparently like the
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: godfather of some of the kind of lumineer's mump and
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: sutz kind of heyho kind of stump clap stuff that
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: came up in the in those years just after that.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: A lot of that was inspired from the that for
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: em a record, and I didn't know that, and I
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: don't even really know a lot of those bands that well,
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: although I guess I'm associated a lot with kind of
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: singer songwriter music. I don't know those bands. But and
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: I did not ever know that record. I was not
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: really into for Emma. I didn't know it. I just
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: hadn't listened to it. I came in on the self
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: titled Bonavar record incredible. Twenty two million is a top five,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: top three album for me at all time. I've really
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: twenty two a million is like one of those for me,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: and and but and all the records and sable Fable
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: absolutely incredible. I mean, it's just like you know, some
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: of my favorites I've ever heard. It wasn't until like
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: maybe a year or a year ago, or so a
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: year and a half ago maybe that I finally found
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: I was ready for Emma, and that record was very
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: kind of famously. The mythology of it is, you know
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: that he went off to his he was kind of
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: dejected and felt like he was a failure in his
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: life and all these things were going wrong. He was
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: sick and went off to his dad's cabin and the
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: woods and the snow and kind of lived out there
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: and wrote this whole album and kind of emerged with
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: it finished and it was, and it just changed the
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: world a little bit. And I will tell you that
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: I listened to for Emma. I had never listened to
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: it really before about a year ago, and I probably
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: listened to it one at least one hundred times in
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: the last handful of months. I listened to it so
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: many times, and because I was trying to listen to
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: what he did, knowing he did it that way, and
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: that was a huge part of me wanting to just
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: go disappear into a house for a few days and
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: see if I could just come out with a record,
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: like you know, just kind of emerge with a thing finished. Now.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: I did not go to the Airbnb and he was
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: like in a cabin in the woods, and I was
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: like in an airbnb in these Nashville's, so it was
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: exactly the same thing. There's like a literal record store
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: across the street and like eight really good restaurants with
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: him walking distance. So it was not I wasn't like
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: I was like eating venison chili that I had like
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: slaughtered the day before, but like I'm sure Justin was
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: for those months, but I had the songs, but there
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: was something there was the inspiration from that record definitely
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: came with me, and it was like I wanted to
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: feel real, I wanted to feel authentic. I wanted to
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: feel you know, like that and I and and that
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: was a huge inspiration for me, honestly. And it's like
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: a record from so many years ago now that everyone
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: else has already had their moment of inspiration with and
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: I just I just did a couple of months ago.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, just imagine all the queer youth you
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: could have liberated if you just would have been in
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Wisconsin and you.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Imagine, I mean, oh my god, it's like, I could.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: You You would have come out with an album that
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: just would with a rock opera.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, it could have been been a multi.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Trump would have just resigned and it would have been withering.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: Whatever I came out with would have been so devastating
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: that Trump would have just immediately, which.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: It would have been. But you know what, you just
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: you just settled for an airbnb and east.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: Now I got nine songs out of it. I got
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: my little my little album, and I'm just doing whatever
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: I can with it. I'm just trying to steward it
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: the best that I can. So I'm here talking to you.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: It's right and not ap MPR.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Sure, as long as they're around for people to talk
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: to them, I guess you know it's true.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I yeah, I love like I'm
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: curious for you. It's like thinking through your entire career, right,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Like you've you've been doing this for over thirty years now.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: When you look back to like mid early nineties when
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: you first started this with Cadman's, Like, do you think
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you could have ever imagined that you'd be writing an
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: album trying to like just help some queer youth make
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: it to another day? Like that? That's that's kind of
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: an amazing thing. Like if you look back, like that's
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: where I started, and here I am right now, and
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: not obviously it's not like where you're finishing, but like, yes,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: here you are now, like thirty years later, and now
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: you're writing albums to just like make sure that like
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: another kid is going to make it another day. Yeah,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Like that's cod and maybe in like some way or
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: shape or form, like you were doing that unintentionally thirty
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: years ago, but like now you're explicitly like I just
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: want to make sure that that kid makes it another day.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: In high school, yes, like, could you imagine, like thirty
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: years ago, like that was the music that you would
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: eventually be writing.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: I don't think I probably could have even imagined I
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: would still be making music or I don't know what
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: I would have been, you know, because when we started Cadence,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: I was like I was like or I was nineteen
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: or twenty maybe when we started the band, you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: as I was right out of high school and like
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: I'm fifty now, so it's like it was more than
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: half my life ago, and I don't think I had
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: any idea. I definitely Well, so here's what I can't
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: tell you is I have always from when I was,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: from when I was a kid, and all the way through,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: I've always really identified with kind of just like I
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: feel like I when I was in school, I was
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: that I was that kid who was kind of weird
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: and over in the corner, like the outside, the outsider.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: That was definitely my I was about to say my crowd.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: I didn't have a crowd. I mean like that we
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: would kind of iland to misfit toys, get gather a
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: little sometimes, but like I didn't fit in and nothing
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: that I am good at, Like I'm not good at much.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: I'm just super good at just a very few things,
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: and I managed to make everything in my whole life
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: out of those few things. But I'm not good hardly
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: anything else.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Which is the whole talent in which it kind of is. Yeah.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: But but the things that I'm good at, the few
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: things that I'm good at, were in no way being
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: seen or valued or measured in any way when I
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: was a kid, and so I didn't fit in, you know,
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: and I and I relate and all through my career,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: even and especially in times when it appeared as though
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: I suddenly found myself into like that crowd, because like
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: when Cadman's first kind of started taking off, when we
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: were playing at all of our friends colleges, and it
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: must have seemed as though we knew what we were doing,
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: and and there someone must have looked at what we
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: were doing and thought, well, there's there's like there's some
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: some something cool crowd going on about that deal.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And I never served anything about nineteen year olds. It's
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: that you know what they're doing precisely.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: But it's like I never felt that way though, like
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: I have all I still very much at my core
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: identify with feeling out of place and feeling like I
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: don't fit in, and feeling I've always felt that way. Now,
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: I can't imagine how it would feel, and I certainly
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: cannot imagine in twenty twenty five how it would feel
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: to be a kid who is already trying to figure
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: themselves out in their identity and all the pressures and
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: all the changes and everything you're going through, and on
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: top of that, to have all of the psychological and
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: emotional and political pressure and and and to live in
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: fear and for the stakes to be life and death. Like,
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: I cannot imagine what that could feel like, but I
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: do identify with that feeling, and I do, and I
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: think I have always, even and especially again when when
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: I when in the Caveman's days, like I would always
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: kind of scan around for like who is disengaged and
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: who is not with the group here and who and
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: I would always try to those people, and I would
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: always try to find my way to those people. And
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: I've always most deeply connected with and resonated with those folks.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: And I'm sure that's part of a handful of reasons
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: why I have felt such a kinship too, and such
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: a resulting allyship with the queer community is because that
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: really is in my DNA and to feel out of
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: place and so anyways, I mean, so that said, I
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: don't think I could have guessed what the subject matter
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: might have been or who the who the people group
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: might be. But if you were to tell me that,
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: like I'm still trying to find the kids that are
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: alone and feel out of place and don't understand how
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: they belong and are being actively told they don't and
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: that they don't, that they do not exist and they
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: are invisible, it would not surprise me to hear that
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: that's who I'm going for.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of like there was a movie
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: I watched when I was a kid. I remember what
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: year came out, maybe twosy and four, two and five,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: two and six, but like twenty years ago. The movie
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: is called Radio. Did you ever see the movie Radio?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: It's a Cuba what's his Cuba? Yeah? Yeah, yeah that
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: guy he So the movie is about this, uh, And
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: I don't like, I don't mean to like tell the
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: story to like make myself a hero, but to say that,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: because the story isn't, but it is to say like
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: why I am maybe the way I'm now, like looking
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: back on my life watching this movie twenty years ago,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: but I remember watching that movie and there's a scene,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: so so the Cuba character is a guy named Radio
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: who has some I don't know if he has Down
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: syndrome or it's some sort of like intellectual disability, but
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: he really loves football and he like really wants to
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: be a part of the local high school football team.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: And there's a scene where he's like trying to you know,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: get more involved, and the coach is kind of like
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: you're kind of like ruined the vibe or whatever, but
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: like also like recognizing like okay, like you're just looking
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: to a place to belong or whatever. And at one
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: point the team kind of turns on him and bullies him,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: and there was a there's a scene where him his
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: mom finds out like he's he's not at home and
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: he should be at home by this, and she like
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: goes and looks for him and eventually finds him or
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: the coach or you know, she like gets the coach involved,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: and they find him in the like locker room or
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: close to the locker room, and he had been locked
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: up and they you know, eventually like the players had
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: basically bullied him where they just like bullied him to
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: like he just was so scared and he just like
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: was in this room. And I just remember watching that
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: as like a eleven or twelve year old however old
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: I was at the time when that movie came out,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: and I remember watching that and I was like I
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: was like that, that's that's the person I want to
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: root for, Like that's that's the person like whatever. Like
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I mean I really maybe felt it visually because I
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: was like a football player and I wanted to play
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: football in college and like that was my whole dream
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: in my life. Like I was like whatever I am
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: in the world, like I'm not going to be the
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: football player that would have been involved in that. Like
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: I was gonna be the football player to like help
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: this guy, yes, right, and like I and that like
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: that has like and I look back at my life
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: now and I realize, like, oh, like I was grown,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: like I grew up in a world where I was
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: meant to maybe be the bully in the world, and
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I've realized like I'm trying my best to like relinquish
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: all of it right to like be the person that
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: like helps that person that And it sounds like that
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: for you, right, Like you grew up in a world
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: where we were like meant to be sort of be
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: the bullies, and now you're realizing, like there's a whole
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: bunch of kids that are just like they're by their
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: locker and they're crying because like they just like don't
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: know if they belong And regardless of like what you
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: think about their own sexual orientation or whatever, like doesn't matter.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Like they're the person that just doesn't feel like they
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: belong in the world, and it does not matter what
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: you think about that specifically, it just matters that they
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: feel like they still have hope in the world. Yeah.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: And to just be that person for them to say,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: you know what, you still belong in the world, Like
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I believe in you, you matter. Yeah, Like that's that's
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: what they need to hear, right yeah.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah, and and and and for me, it's
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: like I have spent too many years now watching my friends,
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: some of my best friends and my loved ones, my family.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: This is intimate to me at the business end of
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: so many different groups of bullies. And if it's not
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: the federal government, then it's local government, or it's the church,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: or it's I mean it it's you know, it could
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: be even their parents, absolutely absolutely their their their family.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Their parents could be their first bullies.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, of course, and often and often are
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: and so yeah, you know, it's like it's and it's
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: been something that has if you've been paying attention, there
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: definitely is been a progression. And it's something I have
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: that's been important to me for a long time, and
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: I've even written songs about for a while. But it
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: was like finally again, I mean, the emergency reached such
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: a pitch that for me, I needed to just devote
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: every and and and as I gave my energy to
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: that goal. Never has an album come faster. I mean
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: the original title of this record was Survival Songs, Volume One,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: because I it was coming so fast and it was
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: so easy that I just thought, I mean, I'll probably
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know when I'll stop writing, maybe never write
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: stop writing songs about this and for the and for
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: for this particular specific purpose. Now, of course, what happens
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: is you you finish, and then you have to use
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: a different whole side of your creative brain to shift
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: gear and you have to go from you know, documenting
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: and creating to recreating and performing and and stewarding and promoting,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: and so I have slowed down on that part of it.
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: But now I'm super anxious, you know, to get out.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: Like we're talking on a Monday, Like by Thursday, I'll
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: be in Florida and I have shows solid to the
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: end of the year, and I'm and I'm gonna, you know,
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: get out and see how these songs feel on the
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: road and yeah, and I'm I can't wait. It's and
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: I've never it's never felt uh, my job has never
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: felt more missional than it does right now. And I
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: think you and I have even talked about that, this
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: kind of strange irony that at this point in my
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: life and career, I feel more resonant with the idea
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: of vocational ministry I ever have in my life. And
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: I went decades receiving thanks for my ministry, a ministry
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: that I was unintentionally doing or it wasn't. It was
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: not the point, It was not my intention of why
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: I was doing the work. I was not trying to
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: use the songs to further a particular way of thinking
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: and win people to my way of thinking. And it
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: wasn't for some other purpose like a like a trojan horse.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I was just doing it to try. I
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: was just trying to write good songs and perform them well.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: And that was the work, and that had you know,
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: it wasn't there was nothing ministry about it. But but
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: here now, and increasingly over the last let's say ten years,
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: but never more so than right now, I am thinking
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: exclusively about people who are not me. This is the
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: first record of mine I've ever made that I am
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: not I mean, this sounds so crazy and like such
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: a strange, privileged statement, and it is. But like I
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: am not at the center of this record, like I'm
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: barely in this record. I'm a staunch ally, I'm a
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: family member and friend an ally to this community, but
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: I am not I'm a straight cisgender man. I'm i'm
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a student of and
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: a follower into this fight. But I'm not a leader.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: And this is not this is not inherently my community
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: or fight. But I am joining in it in as
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: far as I am able, and I am taking guidance
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: from and learning from my friends and mentors who are
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: in the community. And but it's strange because, like I've
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: even had people who are kind of like my patrons
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: and people who are kind of a little closer to
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: the work I'm doing, who knew what the record was,
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: knew it was coming, and kind of had some apprehension
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: about it because they were like feeling weird about the
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: idea that this is the first record of mine that
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: I didn't make for them, which is to say for me,
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: because they resonated with all with a lot of the
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: records in as far as we have probably have things
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: in common in our stories, and this is a record
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: I've made for for someone else, for others, And it's
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: like this is the way you finally, like this is
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: the real work of taking you know, a wrench to
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: the patriarchy. Is like finally, white straight maleness is even
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: decentered from my narrative. Like it eventually has to get
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: personal for everyone, and it's something you must do intentionally.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: You have to like literally even decenter yourself from your
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: own story in order to see the people around you
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: who need who need you to speak up, and who
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: need you to bring the allowance of the privilege that
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: you've been gifted and bring that to bear for the
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: emergencies and the fires that are raging all around you.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: It's like a whole new writing for you to like
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: write in that narrative. Is it totally? It is?
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: I mean it has been that way increasingly, but this
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: was a different exercise in it, and it really was
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: like and as part of it, I'll tell you that,
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: you know, like once immediately as I was started like
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: so at the beginning of February and those first week
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: or so, when I when I realized what I was
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: going to do, I had the title first, and that's
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: not unusual for me, but I knew what I wanted
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: to call it, and I was starting to write the songs.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: I immediately texted a bunch of my friends, mostly artists,
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: not all artists, some just writers, and some other friends
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: who are great have fascinating brains, but to all queer
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: folks who are my friends and trans folks who are
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: who are friends in my community, and I told them
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: what I was trying to do. I was like, here's
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: here's what I'm doing, and here's where I need your help,
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: because part of allyship is showing up in the ways
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: that are needed. Not just I mean my enthusiasm. I
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: tend to have a lot more enthusiasm than preparation a
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: lot of times. And so I don't know what I'm doing.
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: I get that, Yeah, so what I'm doing is not
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: always helpful, and I don't want I want to be helpful.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be like that ally that you
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: have to constantly educate and tell to shut up and
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: do this for us. And so I texted on my
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: I text a lot of my friends, and I said,
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: here's I'm doing, And could you take a second at
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: some point in the next couple of days and think
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: for me about what you would say to your adolescent, younger, teenage,
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: you know whatever, self in order to help them get
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: through what the world is like in twenty twenty five, Like,
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: what would you say to yourself that if you knew
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: you only had a second to grab yourself by the
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: shoulders and keep yourself alive right now as hard as
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: the world is. What do you think you would say?
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: What is that language that's needed and could be helpful
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: and meaningful, you know? And I got so much unbelievable
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: feedback to that, and so much of that language was
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: what was weaved into these lyrics, and it was the
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: great guidance for me from so many of my friends,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: and some of them I went back to who i'd
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: beat with the folks I thought would do it for me,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: and said, would you this was so beautiful? Would you
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: be willing to just grab your phone really quick and
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: hit record and just say that to yourself, like with
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: your voice, say it as simply as you can, and
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: send it to me. I don't even know what to
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: do with it, but it's so meaningful and it's been
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: so impactful just to read what you've written. If I
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: have to feel like that could be some element. And
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: I wound up finishing. I thought the record was kind
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: of done at a certain song, and then I added
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: one more that is just I thought, if I can
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: get forty one minutes with a kid to say some
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: things that I hope could be empowering language soundtrack and
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: helpful to keep them alive for another moment, to give
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: them some encouragement again and empowering words. I don't want
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: to end it with clever poetry. I don't want that
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: to be the last few moments we spend together. What
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: could be the most important thing I give them at
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: the very very end, And I thought, they just need
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: they just need affirmation, just insane, just rapid fire affirmation.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: And so the last song on the record is actually
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: the voices of these friends of mine and a bunch
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: of my people you know, are on there, and there's
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: so many I won't even to try to name them
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: all because there's a lot of them, but these are
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: my dear friends. And it's like all this variety and
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: diversity of voices of people just giving affirming statements that
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: were the things that they wish that they had heard,
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: and this is what we're offering. And so the last
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: thing you'll hear is just an onslaught, you know, one
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: and a half straight minutes of just affirmation, and I
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: really hope it helps you know. That's that's why it's
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: been done.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: So anyway, along those lines, I mean you've been talking
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: about how I mean, obviously this album really is for
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: like the queer adolescent. Yeah, I'm sure you're very aware that,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: like you know, like the album is not going to
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: be exclusively or like predominantly listened to by queer under
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: sixteen or whatever. Right, like right, like most of the
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: people that are still gonna be going to your shows
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: are not like a chaperone kind of demographic christ But nope,
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: Like right right, Like you're very aware of that. So
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I'm curious like, as you're like writing those songs knowing that,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: like this is for a queer adolescent, knowing that it
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: might not necessarily be listened to directly or that they're
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: not it's not found directly by them. I Like, I
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: could imagine a lot of your fans probably have queer
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: kids themselves and might like then give it to them.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that's kind of the route, But I'm just
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: curious like for you, like knowing that as you're writing
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: obviously very intentionally these songs for queer adolescents, knowing that
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: they're probably not going to ever hear who, I am
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: like like, yeah, they're that like let's be honest, right, Oh,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: So Like I'm curious like how, like what what is
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: the way you think through that? Like how do you yeah,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: how do you process? So?
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: So, I mean other than getting the songs written once
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: I had and and then sending them to friends and
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: getting good encouragement that that that the songs were resonating
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: and and and that they it felt right and and
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: that it could be helpful, and at that point, yeah,
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: it's like as though my I mean I'm such a
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: like a niche, a nation, a nation, a nation. I'm
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: just so I'm I'm. I mean, what I do is
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: so specific and so and it's i'm I'm for hardly anybody.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: The music I make, it's for hardly anybody, and so
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: the first and so it's so it's hard enough for
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: me when I'm swinging the bat as hard as I can.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: For the obvious people who might know who I am already,
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: that's already not the easiest thing in the world to
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: try to get the music out there. So of course
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: I knew this was going to be, Like I couldn't
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: have made things any harder on myself, because I don't
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: think that this is my obviously is not my audience.
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, these are people my kid's age, you know,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: these are my kids and friends and so so for me, honestly,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: the first thing I did and I started, I started
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: literally months ago, Like as soon as I started writing
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: the songs I started, I made a I got it.
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, I am nothing if not organized. I mean,
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: you can beat me on a on a lot of fronts,
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: but you cannot out research and out prepare like I am.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: And my wife and I are both this way, we're
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: like raging enneagram fives then like you cannot out prepare
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: me like and so I will if it's if it's
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: preparedness that was called for, I will win on that.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: And because I I am tireless about it. And and
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: I got a giant spreadsheet and I filled it with
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: every single organization that I follow, that I support, that
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: I've ever heard of, that is doing good, meaningful work
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: in the queer community, especially with queer youth and adolescents.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: And I'm thinking everything from you know, p Flag to
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: Glad to Trevor Project to you know, beloved a Rise
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: to I mean just every everybody I could think of,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: and all the peripheral ones and all the influencers and
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: all the thought leaders and all the And I made
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: this exhaustive spreadsheet list of all these organizations and people
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: uh uh for influencers and also just people I have.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: I don't I don't know that. I just admire people
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: I had connections to who maybe have big audiences and
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: anybody could think of. And and basically, as soon as
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: there was anything, as soon as I had mixes of
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: the songs, I mean, as soon as I was done,
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: I immediately and I spent months just cold emailing and
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: and dming and messaging everybody I could to get on
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: as much radar as I could with this project, because
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: it is beyond me and it's not And I don't
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: even care if people walk away remembering who I am,
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: or listen to any other record I've ever made. That's
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: not what I'm after. I'm just trying to get these
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: particular songs into the ears of these particular people in
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: hopes that it helps. And so I did a t
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: and I started asking all my friends, does anybody know anybody?
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: And I did a shit ton of work trying to
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: do outreach and meet folks and try to earn and
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: try to have my friends vouch for me with certain
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: other people and organizations and made some incredible connections and
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: friends and folks who heard the music and looked and
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: looked into me and got back and said, you know,
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: we would love to feature this, and we would love
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: to spotlight you, and we would love to distribute this internally,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: and we would love to help you when you come
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: to town, and we would love to And it's the
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: most work. I mean, I haven't really talked about this much,
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: but it's it's for sure the most work that I've
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: done preparing for an album release, probably since my first
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: solo since She Must Shall Go Free. And I remember
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: that record. I was like, no one's ever heard of me.
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: I've come out of this band, but I've never done
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: this before, and it's a challenging record. That was a
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: pretty challenging Every record of mine's been challenging for some reason.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: But and I remember getting a list of like every
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: college like r UF and Wesley Foundation leader in the
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: country that I could get a phone number for anywhere
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: Cadman might have played because were be a college band.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: And I had this giant like list of phone numbers
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: and names, and I called. I mean, we were in
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: the van driving around to these shows and I was
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: calling all day and like hi, and they never heard
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: of me, but they'd heard of the band maybe, And
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: I was calling them and just asking them to please,
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: like I'm gonna We're gonna send it to you, and
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: please play it for the students, the people you work with,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: you know, and you know, and I would love for
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: you to just to help me spread the word. Not
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: since then have I done anything remotely close to this
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: kind of work trying in front of it and during
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: I'm still doing it, and even right now, like I mean,
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: that's not the way the reason you and I are talking.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: But I'm doing a lot of interviews right now because
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: I put up a link on my website and I
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: was like, I will talk. I will record thirty minutes
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: with anybody who's willing to help me promote this record.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: I don't care how small your blog is. I don't
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: care how small your podcast is. I don't care if
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: you have no listeners. You're just gonna launch it for
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: this reason. I don't care. If you're willing to talk
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: to me and give me a chance to talk about
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: the record, and you're willing to promote that in your
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: little circles, I will repost you and I will talk
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: to you. I've done. I did like eight interviews today
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: and I'm doing like twelve tomorrow. Like I literally, I
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: put blocks on my calendar and I put a link
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: up on the website, and I've probably got forty interviews
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: in the next two and a half weeks. And some
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: of them are with friends, and some of them are
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: with people who have decent little things they're doing, and
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: some are for people who don't have two people listening
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: to them, and I don't care. I'm going to talk
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: to every This is one of those projects that for me,
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: again the urgency and the importance and the stakes. I
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: don't want to look back and think I did not
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: give everything I had trying to steward and get these
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: songs out out And so that's what I'm busy doing
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: I love Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It reminds me
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: of like, you know, if, for example, right if a
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: sixteen year old queer kid at school doesn't hear this
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: because of the music they're into, Like this s thing,
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: right Like, but there's a real possibility, right Like, You're
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: doing everything you can, and I think that's great, and
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I think at the very least, at the very least,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Eric like knowing your audience. You definitely have a lot
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: of people in your audience who probably grew up listening
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: to Caithman's especially, have followed your career. They love you
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: and have since come out of the closet. Ye, And
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: what they might need most right now is like they
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: have a relationship to their sixteen year old self that
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: they have not been able to surrectify of course, or
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: have a reconciliation with ye, and they hear this album
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: and they're like, this is what I needed to hear
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: when I was sixteen.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard some some of those people.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Actually like that. That is to me like if if
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: nothing else happens, that will happen. I'm guaranteed if not
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: already has happened, and that will that That to me
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: is like almost probably got to be worth it, right, Yes,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: the course like that your fans that have come out
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: of the closet over all these years and now are
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: like now able to renavigate their own relationship with their
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: own sixteen year old self.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I appreciate you saying so. And I have
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: received emails and dms and a handful of extremely meaningful
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: messages from it that are exactly that. That for for
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: a very small group of people in a very narrow
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: bottom area of a Plinko board where the ball has
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: fallen very you know, to a certain area.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: It's like the thousand dollars people, right, exactly, the thousand
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: dollar people.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: To me there that that they are the thousand dollar people.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: I've gotten messages and and they have basically said something
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: like I grew up on your music or my parents
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: were big fans of your band, and I was maybe
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: made to listen, you know, to your maybe my household
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: only allowed Christian so called Christian music to play in
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: the house, and you know, and so it's been it's
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: part of my early narrative and my and and exactly
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: what you said. And since I have come out, I've transitioned.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: I have a wife, I've got a husband, I've got
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: a family. I have my own children now, and there's
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: something for them about hearing the same voice that sang
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: those songs, those early songs that were connected to a
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: very different part of their lives. Hearing hearing, weirdly, I
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: mean weirdly, hearing my same voice say these things now
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: seems to have been very meaningful for for for some
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: folks too, and because for exactly that reason, and that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: is obviously like that's well beyond anything I could imagine
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: or have intended. But it's been like the sweetest I
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: mean like that. It's it's like every one of those
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: emails is a fucking grammy. I mean, it's like it means.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: Everything it is it is and it's like, I mean,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: it's a devil word right there.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: I should have said doubleware, of course, which are Grammys
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: or whatever, but but like it really is and it's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: and and you're right it it I I will like,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: I will take every bit of that. And of course
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: that's in my mind that there are going to be
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: those people because I've already I already know those people.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: I already already know that those people exist because I've
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: met them all or not them all, but I've met
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of them on the road the last handful
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: of years, as I have been more and more outspoken,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: and this particular subject matter has found its way more
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: into the center of what I'm what I'm tending to
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: write about, things like that, I'm having these conversations, So
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: I hope that that's happening. I hope that it is,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: but I also hope somehow, And I'm also hearing from
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: friends who are like have either kids or nieces, nephews
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: or you know who, who also are are handing this,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: who are kind of passing this stuff around hopefully and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: uh and I, yeah, I hope they don't look me
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: up because I'm I'm super complicated. How do you explain
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: me to anybody, especially like somebody in my kid's age,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: because I've got teenagers. But It's like I I hope
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: they can just even if in a vacuum, I hope
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: that they can find the songs and that it could help. Honestly,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: that's it. I just hope it helps.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: That's what it's all about. I love it. Yeah, I
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: love it. Well, enough about survival songs? Are you ready
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: to talk about I think artists that on paper you
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: should love but you don't, and then artists on paper
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: that you shouldn't love that.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: I love this. I love this about our conversations you
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: always have and and apparently, as we talked about just
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: before we started, like I've been on just a few
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: times now where we've had to you had to dig
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: a little deeper into your into the toolbox of these
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: types of questions. But I love that you have them,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: and so i'm I'm, and you already kind of shared
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: some of yours with me, and I don't know if
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: that's part of it. I don't know if you do
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: that as part of this segment, if.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: You, well, I'm, I mean, I maybe I've shared it before. Yeah.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: So for example, an artist that and you can go
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: however way you want to go with us first, but
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: an artist that I should love but on paper, but
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: I don't love is a lot of dispute, right for
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: whatever reason. To me, they just sound like mean without
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: You cover band, And I don't mean that desparent like that.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: I mean they're they're probably they're great, like they're on
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: their own. I just can't get into them because like
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: there's something about I think Me Without You is one
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: of the greatest bands ever And because of that, like
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: anything that kind of sounds like them but isn't them
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: just sounds like a sort of high school band versions.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: Why not just listen to them?
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like a lot of dispute. It's one
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: of those. So that's That's a band that on paper
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: I should love, but I don't. A band that I
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: do love, but on paper I shouldn't love is And
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: I mentioned this like maybe there's kind of like a
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: series of artists like this, but like to me, like
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: The National maybe is like the most like noteworthy of
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: like bands that are kind of in that like indie
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: song singer songwriter world that have gotten really popular like
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: The National literally probably a top ten favorite band of
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: all time for me, like True like Trouble Will Find
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Me probably a top ten favorite album of all time. Like,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: I just absolutely love The National. I will see them
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: anytime I can. I absolutely love them. And also there's
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: very few bands that they're associated with that I'm into,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: is right, Like they're just not the scene that people
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: would associate me. And I also like generally don't like
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: most of the other bands that they're are kind of around,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: but for whatever reason, the National is just like on
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: this next tier of just I absolutely love them, and
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: almost any other band that's kind of liked them just
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: not really into.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: Yes, So okay, so I'm gonna so here I go,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: and I love it. This is perfect that you've said this,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: because my on paper, I should love them, and I
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: just don't. I cannot get into them. Are you ready
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: Let's hear it The National?
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: Really when you said this earlier, I was really going
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: to share this, but because dude, I am so into
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: those I mean, you know, that is kind of my
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: scene that you talking about. It's like Soufion and Bonavert
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: and you know, and all that kind of stuff whatever
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: and and and and I it's like every I know,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: every reason that I should love I love and I
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: also love like leftist center kind of experimental and quirky
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: singer you know, like and it's it's exactly what.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: But catchy enough where it's got you got like big singles,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: like they can do it.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: All exactly and for some reason. And I've tried a
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: handful of times, and.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: I is it? Is it Matt's voice? Is it the baritone? Now?
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: I like his voice. I think his voice is okay.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know what, dude, I don't know what it is.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: And because I and I've tried, I will go. I
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: will every year or two. I will go and I
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: will look up like what are the ones? What are
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: the most beloved records by the National? And I'm going
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: to try again because I know I'm missing it, And
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: so I will go and I will put it on
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: and I will listen to it and part with them
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: just like I I I'm now realizing I haven't been
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: paying attention for like three songs, and I just I'm
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: not into it. I'm not interested.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: So here here's what I will say about the National,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Like where they can get boring as a huge National fan,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: say this is a huge National fan. Where they can
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: like I've hitchtiked to see the now like that's how
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: dedicated I've hitch tiked across the country. I believe to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: see the National. That's how dedicated I am. Where they
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: get boring is their slow stuff, the National, and they
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: only maybe only especially their last like number of albums
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: will have songs like this, But they're faster songs, like
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: the songs that kind of like are fast enough to
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: be a single or whatever, those songs they just nailed
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: so so well, yeah, it's the songs where they're just
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: like just generally slower, they like they just kind of
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: all meld into one now, I think in an album entirely,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: Like if you're listening straight through an album, it kind
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: of works, yep. But if you're just like if you're
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: in the mood of just like I just want to
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: listen to the singles. I want to listen to something
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: that's catchy. The National isn't able to make a song
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: that's slow that's catchy. They only are able to do
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: that with a free hear that song. Well, So the
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: faster songs to me are the ones that I absolutely
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: love from the National, Like, those are my most listen
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: to songs because those seem to be the singles yestantly.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: Well, and I'm a real completist and I'm like a
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: real I'm an album. I'm old, I'm older, So I
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: like albums like I like whole statements, and I make
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: records that are like that, and so like I'll I'll
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: hang in for the whole thing. But so let me
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: say this, though for many years I knew I should
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: like willco and I oh, and I didn't get will Coo.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: And I remember, and I remember when all my friends
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: were getting into Yankee Hotel, Fox Trot and everybody's losing
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: their minds, and I remember being like, all right, I
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: want to be in on this. I want to be
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: in you know, I want to be the cool guy
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: or whatever. And so I went and got it and
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: I listened to it, and just this was like decades ago,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: and I just did not get it at all. It
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: just sounded like it made no sense to me. And
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: I just I couldn't even listen all the way through it.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: I didn't like it. I didn't get it. And then
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: years later, when I was ready finally for it, it
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: was so it was not nothing changed. It's not like
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: they went in and changed it. And then I listened
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: to the new version of it. I mean I was
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: different coming to it. And I acknowledge it. I take
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: full responsibility for that. And all of a sudden I
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: put in Yankey Hoto Fox Trot years later, and I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: was like, there's no way this is the same record
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: like it sounds it. It was a revelation and it changed,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: and that record actually changed like everything. It changed how
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: I listened to records, it changed how I make records,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: it changed how I write, it changed everything. It was
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: a huge record for me, and I really really didn't
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: like it when I first heard it, and so I
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: know that I can be just wrong about this, and
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: actually the same thing was like true of Radiohead when
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: Radiohead first, like early, like experimental Radiohead, like after like
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: post the Bens stuff coming out. I didn't really get
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: it at that time. That's not where I was at,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: and so it took me a while and then I
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: went back to it and just fell really hard down
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: the rabbit hole because I was like, it's such a
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: bulls eye. It's such a bulls eye for me, which
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: is why the National should be a bulls eye for me,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: which is exactly what It's the perfect band for me
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: to mention.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Because well, you literally it could be two years from
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: now we're gonna be doing the podcast again.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, By the way, the National is not my favorite
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: band of all time.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: It's going to be on Jesus And it was The
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: National like I've converted like on the way it's I
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: couldn't see.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised. Just their their songwriting is so unique.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: One of the things I love about them again is
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: like you get there, there's something about them, and I
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: think part of it is their percussion, part of it
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: is the twins guitar writing. Yes, it's unique enough, but
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason, they're also able to do earworms and
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: there's something about that, like like I love that about
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: you know you you probably know of mute math like
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: that where you you just like they sound so much
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: different than everybody. But also even though they're so unique
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: and it's just like nobody sounds like them, they also
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: are able to get a earworm in you.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: It's like pop sensibility.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, Super leftis so different. Yeah, and that that's exactly
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: the National for me. And then obviously get like Matt's
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: baritone voice and that's just like a week in that year.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: Dude, I'm a Bob Dylan fan, I have no room
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: to criticize anybody for having a weird voice, like I mean,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: I but you can't like for most people, Bob Dylan
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: has not been listenable for decades. That is not me.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm a Bob Dylan fan. I'm a I'm a
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: I'm a I'm a lou Reed fan. I'm a you know,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, I like you know anyway, Okay, I'm gonna
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: transition us because because.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the inverse so a band that on paper you shouldn't.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: Like, but do like, right, Okay, And this is going
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: to be fascinating, I think to me about myself because
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: as I was thinking about this, one of the I
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: don't know if if I'm like on paper technically not
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: supposed to like this artist. I mean, I think so.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: This is one of the biggest artists in the world
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: and has not always had the best reputation for being
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: Oh I just dropped Anees Stertrig for being like having
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: like all the creat you know, being like being much
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: more than just kind of really a great pop artist.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: But Taylor Swift I was not a fan for a
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: long time, okay, because she got really big, really young,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: and I don't think she was, and I'm here, I am, like,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: you know, money morning quarterbacking it. But like, I don't
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: think she was ready for the scale that she hit
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: so early. And my pals are in the I've got
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: pals in the band Jars of Clay, and I think
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: they they blew up so big so early, and I
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: don't think they were ready and knew what to do
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: with it, and so they, I feel like, in their
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: very early career fumbled a little bit too, you know,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: and they took a minute to figure out what to
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: do with like, and it was they were on a
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: very big stage having tried to figure it out. And
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: I stuck around for Taylor Swift and I was not
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: a fan for a long time, and I was like
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: an active not fan for like for years, and I
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: came around and now I mean not only not only her,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: her business acumen and just how masterfully she navigates kind
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: of the the super fan segment of her audience that
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: just so loves and supports her, and she takes such
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: good care of them, and she's so smart about it.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: And she's obviously a brilliant business person, but I think
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: she's just insanely, insanely talented. Now I mean, I've come
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: around her. And the reason I think that that's interesting
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: is because she works a ton with one of the
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: twins from the National Yeah, exactly, like some of those
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: records that he's very active on. I mean, you know,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: he's the one, to my understanding, who put like the
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: rubber Ridge guitar in her hand YEP and the Focalo
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: album kind of fell out of that situation and Jackie.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they have the National has I think it's called
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: Cony Island. They have a song with her too. It's
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: probably the biggest National song on Spotify. But yeah, yeah,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: I get that.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: I think I think she tends to be one of
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: those like you know, because I really really do love
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: very leftist center and very experimental stuff like and I
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: really do, and it kept me away from her a
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: little bit because I was kind of bristled a little
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: bit like the big pop thing. But I I mean,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: I can get into that absolutely. But I have just
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: really become such a pretty a pretty steady like I'm
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: very I'm a very big fan of what she does
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: and how she does it and down to like where
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: I really had to go back and just like find
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: my way through every one of those records and super
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: love it now.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here's what I'll say about Taylor swith So I'm
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan of her. Yeah, however, what
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: in terms of big fan meaning like it's not like
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: I actively dislike her. But what I will say is,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: even though she's like not somebody that I would actively
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: just like put on my Spotify or whatever and listen
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: to her stuff, right, like I probably will never do that.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: Her ability to just like you just exist in the world.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: You go to a you go to a boutique, you
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: go to a restaurant, you go anywhere publicly where there
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: is music being played overhead, you will hear Taylor Swift
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: and my ability now to like, oh that's a Taylor
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: Swift song that I've never and I probably like, unless
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: I'm in a public place, I will probably never hear
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: that song and tell them again. But like every time
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: I'm in a public place, you will hear one of
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: her like songs like she has like just and I
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: don't know, like maybe I'm trying to think of like
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: other examples of that in pop music history, Like I'm
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: sure Michael Jackson was, Like I wasn't alive when Michael
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: Jackson was at his heyday, but like I would imagine
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: Michael Jackson was in that level. But like just that
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: ability to like almost exist almost like a big brother
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: of music where you just are always going to exist
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: wherever anybody is publicly she has. She is totally nailed that, right,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: And so there are Taylor Swift songs where I'm like,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: I don't realize it's a Taylor Swift song until like
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: I like think about it, I'm like, oh my god,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: that was Taylor Swift, right, like just because she just
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: exists almost like omnipresent, to be honest, right, and we
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: are in a that is a that's a level of talent.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: Like as much as like I might be like I
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: don't really like that or whatever that is, there is
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: something about being that talented where you're able to get
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: an earworm where I could be sleeping in bed and
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden that song that it heard in
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: the fucking restaurant, like that now is now playing in
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: my head and they're like, who is that? Oh my god,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: that's Taylor Swift. Oh my god. Like her ability to
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: get that kind of earworm and just be omnipresent right everywhere,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: that's a talent.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: It is well, and it's we are in a post
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: rock star world. We don't have those anymore. I mean,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: it's really rare. We have some that are holdovers from
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: the previous generation of them. But it's really hard because
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: there's no unified music space anymore. It's it's one thousand
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: niche markets of music now. There is not really one
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: big lane for it anymore. Know, even those artists are
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: not even those artists anymore. A tailor is one of
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: the and and and what's what's really remarkable is that
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: you can be that big probably I think inarguably the
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: biggest artist in the world. I think you could probably
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: say she's yeah easy. I think it's probably in the
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: world right now and has been for quite a while.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: And she can still manage to produce things that are
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: intimate and very vulnerable and and and and quirky and
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: like like. I mean, the Folklore album is a great example,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: But there are that's a whole album of it, but
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: there are and that was kind of her quarantine album.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: I get it. But like the fact that she's here's
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: what it is, the fact that she is still taking risks.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: Most of these artists who achieve this, they achieve it
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: the day they stop taking risks. She is an artist
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: who has has accomplished it by way of taking risks,
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 3: like she really dramatically reinvents herself and risks. I don't know,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean how like people who loved her,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: like you know, you know, bubblegum country stuff, how they
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: receive an album like folklore, or how they receive some
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: of her more like really dense almost kind of like electronic,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: you know, like industry super poppy stead you know, like
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: really experimental pop. And you know, I don't know, but
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: she manages to do it, and she brings everybody somehow
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: along for that ride, and and I just think she
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: I think it's she's masterful. And so it's fascinating to
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: me that I'm I somehow cannot cannot manage to find
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: my way into the National, but I have, but I have.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: They've gotten through to me by way of Taylor Smift,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: which is like those and so there's my two like
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: the one I should and the one I shouldn't. And
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: that's how it works out.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: So if you if you're just like looking for a
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: better version of the National collab with Taylor Swift, it's
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: called The National.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: That is ah, that's that's the better, more concentrated, Like
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: if you like the watery oj that comes in the can.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: In the if you're like, if you're like, I really
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: liked that collab with Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift and and
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: the National, But you're like, but I could do without
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: Taylor Swift's vocals. Have I got a band from the
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: called the National? Right? Yeah?
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of people you want to you
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: want to you want to say this about Bone Aver because.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. If you're like, if you like whatever,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: what was that song that he did with with or
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: that she did with justin Vernon, Like if you like
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: that vocal with that she did with justin Vernon, Like, hey,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: do I have a band for you called Bone Bonever?
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: Exactly? It's exactly right. So I'm into it.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: So and here's why I will say, like, you know,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: she she didn't have to go and like end up
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: collaborating with all these sort of like I mean, obviously
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't call them indie artists at this point, like
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: they're they're all very popular, But she didn't have to
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: collaborate with these unbelievable singer songwriters with the National, with Boneiver,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: with others. But she chose to because she like wanted
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: to challenge herself as a songwriter, to challenge herself as
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: a vocalist. Yes, and it made really good music. It
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: might not be her most famous songs, but it made
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: really good music. Yes, And at the very least, like
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: I think we have to respect her for that that
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: she didn't she she's not like the kind of gate
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: like she doesn't seem gatekeepy in her musicianship. Like she's
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: willing to collaborate with people that make sense with her music.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, and there are some artists who we are only
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: the artists who they are because she collaborated with them,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: you know who she really brought up and took under
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: her wing and like really helped you know, popularize and
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: are amazing now. And yeah, you're right. I mean like
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: she surrounded herself with like younger, hungrier, more endie minded
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: writers and musicians. And I love the way that like
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: she basically kind of sneaks off with Jack Antonoff for
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: you know, a month, and they go somewhere where like
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: no opinion or external external voice can get in there
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: and be an influence, and they do exactly whatever they
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 3: want to do. And I love that, like I and
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: it says something to me that, you know, I've seen
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 3: interviews with Justin Burning and talking about that collaboration with
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: Tooe Swift and how stoked he was to do it
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: because of how much he respects her and how he
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 3: knows from the inside like what kind of artist she
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: is and what kind of person she kind of And.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that gave me some credibility to her.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: That like the fact that like Aaron Dresner or Justin
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: would have and honestly, like, I mean, there's been artists
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: that I really respect, Like I have a friend named
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: Zach who plays in a band called May who loves
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: Taylor Swift right, and I like when I encounter some
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: of these artists that I really respect too, I actually like,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: actually really like even if you like aren't into her music,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: you should respect like her her songwriter and everything. And
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, maybe I like need to rethink this
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: a little bit. That has caused me to rethink her
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: music a little bit, and I appreciate that, And yeah,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: it's it's shitty that it causes like it requires me
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: to like listen to other people to to like get
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: to that point, but like nonethless, like I do get
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: into like I get it at least like I might not.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: I'm might not be the person that like actively listens
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: to Taylor Swift, but I at least get it at
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: this point.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, and I and I and I'm that way
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: with like John Mayer and Ed Sheeran, Like these are
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: people who I have a tremendous amount of respect for,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: and I know that they are remarkable talented, but I
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: don't know maybe any I don't know maybe any of
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: any of their either of their songs.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: I guarantee you would recognize them, but know that'd be
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: one of those things where you're just like I like
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: that you wouldn't actively go I've.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: Never never like you said with Taylor, I've never gone
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: and put on an Ed Sheeran record. I've never put
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: on a John record. But I get that the hell
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: out of both of them, and and and I think
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: both of them, at least at this point in their lives,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 3: seem like really interesting and cool people like that they
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 3: they like maybe not at other parts in their careers,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: but right now, as I see them and understand them
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: in the world, it's they're interesting to me and and
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: I and I'm I'm very curious and I'm very open
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: about but and I know that they're obviously huge, but
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 3: like I think they're legitimately extremely talented. I have no
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: problem with these folks. I don't actually listen to them.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: It's not maybe my thing, but you know.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: I get that, Well, that's good to know. There's even
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: a couple more. And just outside of like someone like
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: the National, it's like John Mayer and Ed Sheeran, You're like.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: I probably should. I mean, they're like they're real musicians
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: and they're real, Like I should love these folks. And
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: when I was in high school, I mean when I
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 3: was like because I was like into like Dave Matthew's band.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 3: I mean he was like a real nerd, like a
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: guitar nerd, and I was a real guitar nerd all
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: growing up. So and all my young guitar nerd friends
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: are I mean, among the other guitar players that they worship,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: they definitely worship John Mayer because he's a stupid talent.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: He's a free talent. He's incredible anyway.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Dave Matthews just any jam band. I'll be honest, I
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: don't get it right. I do not get it, like
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not a jam band like Dave Matthews Man at
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: one point had the like they were like one of
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: the best selling bands of all time and maybe still are.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: I think they are one of the highest grossing two
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: bands still.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: Like yeah touring bands, like yeah, it blows my mind.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: Like I think about that with like Nickelback too, Like
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: Nickelback's one of the like highest grossing like touring bands
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: ever and like I just like I don't get it right,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: and like Nickelback, I'm like, and I grew up in
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: South Dakota Nickelback, I'm like I know their songs, right,
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: Like if you play Nickelback like a hit Nickelback song,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: I know the songs. I guarantee you. You could play
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: the most popular Dave Matthews Band song and I guarantee you.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: I still don't know it, and yet they are one
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: of the highest touring bands of all time, and it
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: I just I don't understand. I don't know. It blows
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: my mind, and like all the respect to them, but
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: it just doesn't make sense to write right right. And
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: I think there's something about like that jam band world
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: where Yeah, of course they would be the highest grossing
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: because like all those bands literally travel with the band.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 3: Well and it's experiential. The whole nature of that of
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: jam bands is the jam you.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: Get a new concert every single time.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: So when they play, it's happening. It's it's new revelation
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: every night. And it's not like that with these other
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: bands who just play the record. It's a different thing.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just like and like, I'm on the hardcore
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: world enough where like that kind of probably happens, but
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: like the jam band world, that that's like a whole
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: other thing. I just like they got a whole economy.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: Like the Grateful Dad. They literally like there's people that
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: made livings just being grateful dead fans fans exactly, like
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: just like bootlegging shit. Like I just like, I don't
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: get it. I'm far enough from that world. I don't
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: understand it. I know it exists, but that's about my.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: Amazing.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. I said, all right, well, I know we're
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: getting late here, but Derek, it's always lovely to see
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: your face. You'll you'll be you'll be in Minneapolis here.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: It looks about like six six to seven weeks from
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: now and I will see you and we will hang out.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to see you. Uh and uh. I love
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: these songs, unbelievable songs, so stripped down. I love it.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: I'm a big fan. Uh and uh I can't wait
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: to see you play a few of them.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you that and I hope Yeah. If
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: if you, if you've heard this, and if you, if you,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: if you're listening, what I would ask you to do
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: is just think about in your life, who might be
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: somebody who you might need to send this record to.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: It Is there a is there somebody a queer friend
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: or family member or young person who you think could
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: just use some encouragement, and if boy, do me a
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: favor and just please fire this record off to them.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: It feels very punk in that way.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 3: I need all the help. Yes, right, yeah, it.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: Just feels like one of those things where it's like, hey, dude,
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: have you ever heard this album? Just like that kind
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: of saddn't like that's that's like the goal here.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: It is absolutely like just please, like just if everybody
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: share it, if everybody shared it with one person, but
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: it would make a huge difference, you know, And like
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: that's that's what it's going to take you know, and
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: uh so that would mean a lot. Yeah, so thank you,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 3: thanks for having me fun again. Dude, it's particley, you know.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: We just need to we need to. We need to
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: always schedule like meals and bathroom breaks as part of
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: our conversations because I think we probably could go for
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: at least.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: Like a better you out really really is a thing, but.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: We'll need to eat in between. Oh, it's just so
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: easy to see when you look at me.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, I can read fad energy.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: And your secret on your face.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: Well, it takes is a little bit, Nail Poli