Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Pit Stop: Life at Speed, Hurley Haywood

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Pit Stop: Life at Speed, Hurley Haywood · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

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Breakfix's History of Motorsports series is brought to you in part
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by the International Motor Racing Research Center, as well as the
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Society of Automotive Historians, the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of
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Commerce, and the Argettsinger family.
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In this episode of the History of Motorsports, host Rick Huey from
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the International Motor Racing Research Center interviews legendary
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racing driver, Hurley Haywood.
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Hurley details his early family background and upbringing in Illinois, where
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he developed a passion for driving.
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His formal education took him from Boston to Vermont, and finally
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Florida, where he met Peter Gregg, sparking his racing career.
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After transitioning from motorcycles to autocrossing with
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a Corvette, Hurley impressed Gregg and joined his racing crew.
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With support from his father, Hurley pursued professional racing, leading
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to significant accomplishments, such as winning multiple IMSA championships.
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He shares experiences, including his time during the Can Am Series racing a
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Porsche 917, and highlights the transition to driving for other teams and the
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disciplined environments they provided.
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He reflects on notable races, including his three Le Mans
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victories, and his involvement in the International Race of Champions.
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Hurley emphasizes the evolution of racing into a marketing tool, and
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provides insight into the strategic planning behind modern racing series.
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Hurley, can you tell us a little bit about your family background, where you grew up?
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Well, I grew up in Chicago, Illinois.
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My parents had a home right in the city, and then my grandmother had a big farm
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outside the city in Wheaton, Illinois.
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So as a youth, Growing up, I had a lot of opportunity to explore
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driving all sorts of vehicles from tractors to go karts to driving a
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full size car when I was 12 years old.
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And we had set up a little course out in one of the fields, so, you know, I
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was learning about drift and all that kind of stuff at a pretty early age.
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So, I went off to boarding school in the 7th and 8th grade up
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to, um, Boston, Massachusetts.
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Then I went to prep school up in Vermont.
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And then I came down to College, Florida, and that's when, uh, I met Peter Gregg,
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and the whole racing thing got started.
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Now, was that just a casual meeting, or a Well, when I had graduated from
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high school, first I got a motorcycle, and then my mother Started reading
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all these reports about how dangerous motorcycles was, so I was able to wrangle
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a motorcycle into a, uh, a Corvette.
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And I took the Corvette with me when I went to college.
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And I used to race the Corvette in autocrosses all
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across the state of Florida.
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And I was pretty much unbeatable.
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And one weekend we had a, uh, An event in Jacksonville and Peter Gregg was
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there with his race car and it came on a big fancy transport and everybody was
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moaning and groaning and I didn't know who Peter Gregg was at that point and I
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beat him and he came over and introduced himself and he said you got to be pretty
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good to beat me and that's how we became friendly and he knew that I was friends.
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Kind of interested in racing and I went with his crew and helped on the crew to
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the races and then when I got to be 21, I had talked my dad into helping support
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my racing and he basically agreed to do that, but he put a time limit on it.
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He said, I will help you.
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finance this program for you for two years and after two years is over,
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you have to be going successful enough to continue at the same level
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without using any of your funds.
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So basically I thought, well, I'm going to get two years of having a good time
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and then I'll go do something more reasonable and the rest is history.
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Were you an SCCA member at that time?
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No, I was not an SCCA member.
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I remember.
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I had a regional license in 1969.
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I turned 21 in 1969.
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But Peter had decided that we would run the six hours of Watkins Plum.
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And I said, that's great, but I don't have any license.
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He said, well, don't worry about the license.
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You'll get it through NASCAR.
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Back then, it was simply, you mailed your money in and you got a NASCAR license.
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And once I had the NASCAR license, I applied to the FIA and got an FIA license.
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And then as long as I had my FIA license, I could race here.
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So I arrived in Watkins Glen.
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Really, I mean, this is one of my first races, and the SCCA people
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here were just having a fit.
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Peter said, don't worry about it.
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He's fine, and I'll take full responsibility for him.
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And we won the race, and we've been winning races at the Glen ever since.
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Then I went off into the military.
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I went to Vietnam at the end of 1969.
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I was over there for a little over a year.
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Came back in 71, and then in 71, Peter and I decided that we would
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run for the entire IMSA championship.
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That was the first year of IMSA.
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We had a 914 6, which I actually owned.
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And the deal was, I owned the car, and then Peter would do all of the
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preparation and end of the races, and I would co drive with him.
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He paid me to drive with him.
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That was the giant killer.
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We were racing in the 2.
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5 liter class that was under, and then there was over,
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which was the big Corvettes.
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And we were so good that we were beating the Corvettes on a pretty regular basis.
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And Peter and I co won the, uh, IMSA championship in 71.
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And then in 72, then we went over, we switched to 9 11.
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Peter was racing in the Can Am back then, in 72.
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So he basically gave me the responsibility of running the race.
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the shorter races to try to win the championship.
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So I won the championship outright in 72, driving a 911.
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At that period of time, Super V was coming along.
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Uh, was that anything you were interested in?
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Well, I was really not targeting.
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But Fred Opr asked me if I would drive one of his cars out in California, and
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I said sure, I'd love the opportunity.
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I don't really remember the years, but it was mid 70s I think, and I promptly
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went out and won a couple races.
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But there wasn't a budget to continue on, so I really didn't explore that
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much more than just a couple races.
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But the couple races I did run, I would either won them or missed them.
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Can you tell us a little bit about your jump into Can Am?
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That's a big jump from a 911.
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Well, Peter, of course, had the Can Am car in 1972.
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And he had a couple wrecks and he didn't really enjoy it.
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So he came to me and he said, Would you like to run the Can Am series?
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He said, I think you have the ability to run it.
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In hindsight, I really had very little years of racing
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to qualify me to race in 917.
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I think it was just a crafty way of him to get somebody to sell us this car to.
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So, the first three race cars that Brumos had were my cars.
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The 914 I owned, the 911 that we raced in 72 I owned.
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And this 917 that I raced in 1973, I own.
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So those are the only three race cars that I've owned, and Brumos has all
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those cars back in our collection.
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To get back to your point, I accepted that role, and was really excited about
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it, and went into it just as a total.
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as far as that kind of performance in that kind of a car.
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This was a car that had huge horsepower.
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You know, the 911s had, at that point, under 300 horsepower.
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I was jumping into a car that had 1, 100 horsepower.
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So there was a little bit of a transition period that was
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a pretty steep learning curve.
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But all the guys really helped me a lot.
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In adapting to those cars.
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I remember Mark Donahue really took me under his wing, and Mark was
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the most influential person that had the most direct effect on how
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I was able to adapt to those cars.
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So he and the Penske crew were very helpful in our setup and the
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philosophy and the sort of how you drive these cars and what.
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And it was a lot of fun.
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I was third in the championship.
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I got beaten by Mark, George Fulmer, and then me.
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So, that was pretty good when you had guys like Jody Schechter and David Hobbs
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and all the rest of the guys that were racing against you to, you know, have your
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rookie year come out third was not so bad.
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So, I think that that exposure also gave a little, uh, bit of a foundation to how
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I was able to adapt to different race cars that Porsche was watching at that.
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Because I think that they liked the idea of having an American that they could,
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you know, switch back and forth in different programs that they were running.
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Somebody that they could feel comfortable with and trust.
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Just to go back to the Can Am car, they even had an adjustable wheelbase on them?
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No.
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Do I remember that?
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Well, no.
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They did not have an adjustable.
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The 917 10, which is what I had, was a short wheelbase car when the
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30, and Donahue ran that car in 72.
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And in 73, Porsche made the 917 30, which was exclusive to Penske.
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And that car put everybody else on the trailer because that was a long wheelbase
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car, had a different aero package on it.
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They were tubular construction.
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Mm hmm.
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Tubes.
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When I look at my car now, You know, I was just a stupid young kid to drive that
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car as fast as we were doing it, because if you ever had a frontal impact with
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one of those cars, it was gonna hurt.
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There wasn't a lot of substance up there.
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You sat between two 50 gallon tanks of gasoline.
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It was, it was a pretty hairy ride, as I remember it.
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As I said, I've still got that car.
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And, uh, We race it occasionally and I am very respectful for that car.
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You know, it's just a wonderful piece of machinery in it.
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But it's also pretty frightening if you let it get away from you.
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You explained or mentioned that Peter shifted to BMW for one or two seasons.
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Is that a political thing?
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Yeah, it was totally political.
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Peter was used to getting What he wanted.
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Porsche wouldn't give him what he wanted.
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And he said, well, if you don't gimme what I want, I'm gonna go race for BMW.
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And he did.
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During the time that he was racing him for BMWI was racing for VA polock
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in the transient with the 9 3 4.
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Peter was, you know, he was went races with the BMW and then that's when the
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factory came over with Ook and Ronnie Peterson and Zi was driving for.
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So they, they were fairly serious and they had their, uh, headquarters
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here in Hueytown, Alabama.
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That's where the factory team was based.
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And they ran a really stout program.
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And then in 78, Peter went back to Porsche.
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Because, you know, Porsche then realized how big of a threat
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the BMW was to their dominance.
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And they wanted Peter back.
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So that was just one short year.
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You know, Peter was passed away in 1981.
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And then in 1983, I had a very serious accident.
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I had won Le Mans in 83.
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I came back, I was up in most sport and had a bad accident, broke my leg.
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And it was a serious break.
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And basically the bottom line was that I did not have the strength to push
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the clutch down on a Porsche back then.
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That was just on the cusp of when the 962s were coming.
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I had won Le Mans in 956, which is the predecessor of the 962, but that car
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was not allowed to race in IMSA until the wheelbase was extended so the wheels
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would be behind the front center line.
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So basically I was out of luck and just said, well, you know, I'm going to have
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to sit it out until my leg gets back together again, which was two years.
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And I got a call from Tullius and he said, in our cars you don't
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have to push the clutch down.
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He said, I'd like to continue.
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Have you come drive for our team?
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That relationship lasted five years.
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I drove with the Jags for two years or three years, and then I drove
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for him with the Audi program.
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And he was a great guy.
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A lot of people didn't like Bob, but I liked him.
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He and I never had a crossword.
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I was always kind of a little rebellious.
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You know, you had to do the uniform thing on that team.
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You had to be dressed in a uniform every time, and Bob was very Explicit
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about, you know, white shoes, white socks, white shorts, green belt, gold
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army type style belt buckle, white shirt, you know, the whole nine yards.
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And I would always have one thing that was not quite up to team standard.
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Different colored belts or a slightly different shade of sock
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or, you know, something like that.
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And he never said it.
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I knew he saw it, but he never said anything.
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It was a nice relationship with him, and I really liked the
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team, and I liked the discipline.
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And, you know, Bob was one of the first guys that really brought
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professionalism up to a standard that's now enjoyed by everybody.
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He walked down Pit Lane in the Grand Am ranks, or IMSA, or whatever it is, and
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the team and the philosophy that you have with these teams, uniforms, detail,
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preparation, all was started by Bob.
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To some extent, Peter and Al Hobart were part of that, but
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Bob truly has really brought that discipline to sports car racing.
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And the preparation there was always excellent.
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I mean, I know one of his mechanics used to work on Air Force One.
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So, that's got to be second to none.
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Talk a little bit about some of the prototype cars and
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their differences, I guess.
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The things that stood out about them.
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You're talking about GTP?
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Yeah.
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The GTP car is basically, you know, I drove the Jaguars.
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Yeah, that had the Hewlin, is that what made the shifting?
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Yeah, it had a Hewlin gearbox.
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Just rev it up and And shift.
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Basically the same principles as our Daytona prototypes.
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It's a non synchromeshed gearbox.
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You had that car, you had the 962, which was a fantastic car.
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You had the Ford Puma.
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The Probe, which I drove on a couple of occasions.
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The Nissan, which I drove on a couple of occasions, which was like a nightmare
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before it went on to Goodyear tires.
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But of those cars, the 962 was the Cadillac of that genre of cars.
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It was very easy to drive it, that's why so many people were able to drive it.
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It was a very customer friendly car, up to a point.
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And once it got to that point, then the real pros were able to shine
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and bring it to the next level.
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Most of the guys that had those cars had ran private teams.
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There was an owner, like a Bruce Lovin or a Bob Aiken or Rob Dyson,
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you know, somebody like that.
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who drove the car, was relatively competitive, and then they would
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hand it over to their pro driver, and the pro drivers would race together.
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So it worked out, it was a really nice way that it all worked out, similar to what
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the initial concept was with the Grand Am.
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And with the Daytona prototype, is you get an owner, and a pro guy, and Everything
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would go great, but the thing that sort of threw that whole thing in the waste
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basket was when Brian Redmond brought Carl Haas, when Carl Haas was thinking about
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building a car and Carl said, well, he said, I know how we can win all the races.
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And Brian said, well, how do we do that?
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And Carl said, well, I'll hire two professional drivers.
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That was the end of that.
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So what happened at that point was that the guys that were really.
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Had a lot of money, had two cars, one a pro car and one an
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amateur car that they could drive.
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So, it all worked itself out and it was fantastic racing.
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That was probably an era that will never be duplicated again because
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of the incredible exposure that Campbell Cigarettes gave us with R.
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J.
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Reynolds.
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The individual manufacturers were in it and each one of those
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individual manufacturers were spending tremendous amounts of money
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supporting teams in that series.
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We are trying to build that back up.
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with the Daytona prototypes.
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It's beginning to work for Grand Am because more and more people are
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becoming interested in these cars and they're getting more sponsors
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involved, and when the sponsors get involved then it's going to be good
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for everybody because everybody's going to get a spin off of what they do.
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So, it's marching its way back because sports car racing has been so fragmented
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in the last ten years and it's Fantastic that the Grand Am and the France family
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have got this desire to see sports car racing work in this country and work, not
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just the short term, but work on the long term with a real intelligent, well thought
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out business plan where people can say, okay, this is what we're going to do.
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This is the graph line of acceleration that these cars are going to have
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and it's not going to change for five years or for X number of years.
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So people are confident in spending the money knowing that they're not going
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to have to spend the same kind of money the next year to have a better piece.
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The rules remain stabilized.
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So that's an important consideration to have.
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Another thing that sort of dovetails off that kind of thinking is that
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when I raced in their 70s and 80s, You know, the racing was a hugely
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important development scale for Porsche.
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They used what they learned on the racetrack in their street cars.
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So when they wanted to try something, they'd try it on the race car.
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If it worked on the race car in a racing situation, then
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it would work on a street car.
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Nowadays, that isn't really done anymore, because a computer analysis does that
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much more efficiently than a race car can.
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So what does racing become now, in the eyes of the company?
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It becomes How you market what you're doing in racing
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to help you sell automobiles.
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So, that's something that the Grand Am guys are doing well because it's allowing
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individual teams to come into it with, uh, Lexus motors, Ferrari motors, Porsche
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motors, Ford motors, Chevrolet motors, Pontiac motors, all these different
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combinations, and not have to spend tens of millions, hundreds of millions.
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In Audi's case, I mean, Audi's spending just unbelievable amounts of money with
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these prototypes, you know, for what?
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You look at it, it's kind of stupid.
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And if you had to defend that position, which is one of the reasons
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why Porsche's done it, is because it simply does not make sense.
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financial sense to get in it at this level.
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When you can do something like Grand Am and Daytona prototypes, which will win the
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races overall for 10 cents on the dollar.
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And there's, there's a limited number of chassis builders for it.
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So that also adds to the savings, sir.
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Yep.
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And you, your manufacturers come into it and they sell one car and that car
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is going to be, X number of dollars and the 10th car that they sell is going to
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be the same amount of money, but they're able to amortize that development cost
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over 10 car or 15 car, 20 car program.
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And same thing with the engines.
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The engines are basically submitted to Grand Am their Grand Am looks at it.
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They say, okay, yeah, this is good.
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No, this is not good.
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And so everybody's pretty confident that the engine formulas will remain.
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relatively equal regardless of what power plant you're using.
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With our team, with Brumhaus, we use a 3.
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6 liter Porsche motor.
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It's the smallest motor in the whole field.
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We're down on torque, which helps you get from point A to point B quickly.
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Our horsepower is equal to everybody else's, but it's the torque that hurts us.
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But you know, that's part of our package because we're able
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to weigh a little bit less and.
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Certainly if we need more there, we have to negotiate with it, but the
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negotiation is not a black and white, there's always room for adjustment.
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Early you mentioned the Audi, tell us about that four wheel drive Audi car,
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I know you had one race here that, did you do the whole race yourself?
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Yeah, I, I got into, uh, Scott Goodyear was, uh, Scott was new to the team.
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I was having a great battle and just didn't want to give it up
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at the pit stop, so I stayed in.
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And the Audi, that was really the first time that I had been with a
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factory team that was excessive.
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Anything that we wanted, we could have.
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I mean, if I said, hey guys, you know, I want to have wood paneling on the
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dashboard, I mean, the next race I'd have wood paneling on the dashboard.
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It was like a driver's dream.
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And the cars themselves were absolutely fantastic.
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I mean, just, it was just a really nice atmosphere to be able to work
19:16
in that kind of situation where anything you wanted was possible.
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Now, was that Tullius?
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That was Tullius.
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Ran that program.
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And we mentioned marketing a little while ago.
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They're still using video from those days to market the Audi all wheel drive now.
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So, it really stood out in history, I think.
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We came into those things with this funny looking sedan, and everybody was
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laughing at us until our first race.
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We just hammered everybody.
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You know, the all wheel drive is certainly something that has found its way into lots
19:46
of different types of production cars now.
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It's just as a benefit that is, um, well worth it.
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and Audi was the one that kind of pioneered that system.
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In a race car, it was just phenomenal.
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That's why they basically banned it.
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You don't see four wheel drive cars anymore.
20:01
We mentioned Le Mans quite a bit.
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Could we recap your Le Mans victories?
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Well, Le Mans, I've had a good record at Le Mans.
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And of course, every time I've been to Le Mans, I've been on a
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factory team, which helps immensely.
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So my finishing record there is good.
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Got three wins there.
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People always want to compare Daytona, and other than the length
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of the race, there is no comparison.
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Daytona is a much more difficult race to win, and to drive in.
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For one thing, you've got 12 hours of darkness at Daytona.
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You only have maybe 5 hours of darkness at Le Mans, because
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it gets dark there so late.
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In Europe, The driving is much more disciplined.
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The guys that are driving the slow cars know they're driving the slow
20:44
cars and stay the hell out of the way.
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It's a very, very cut and dry.
20:48
If you're a slow car, you stay on the left.
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If you're a fast car, you go on the right.
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Everybody's looking constantly in their rearview mirrors because back in
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the 70s and 80s, the overtaking speed was sometimes 70, 80 miles an hour.
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So you went right.
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You really fast by somebody's slow car.
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Nowadays, the difference is not so great, but even so, it's still very disciplined.
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The course is billiard table smooth and very fast.
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I mean, average lap time speed is 165 miles an hour around there.
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So, you really, you know, You've got to concentrate tremendously, and it's long.
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I mean, for a new guy going there, it takes a long time to sort of figure
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out the nuances of the racetrack.
21:27
But it's the Super Bowl, as far as the tradition.
21:31
Even though Daytona is the same length, I think it's got Deeper roots than
21:36
Daytona, but I find winning Daytona much more gratifying than winning Le Mans.
21:42
Number one, it's in my backyard, which makes it my home track.
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And I've been really successful down there, so it's like going
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home every time I go to Daytona.
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And to be able to win down there on such a regular basis makes it even better.
21:56
I like going to Daytona better than I do going to Le Mans because Le
21:59
Mans is halfway around the world.
22:01
But, it's so seeped in history that as a racing driver and as a
22:05
sports car racer, I think everybody deserves to do at least one Le Mans
22:10
just to sort of take in that whole atmosphere of the Le Mans experience.
22:14
International Race of Champions.
22:16
And that was really an experience.
22:18
You know, I had read about IROC and what a big deal it was to get invited.
22:23
And when I was invited, I was just blown away.
22:25
It was really, it was a cool deal.
22:27
The cars were completely alien to me as far as how they handled the stock car.
22:33
Philosophy of drafting and positioning yourself on a racetrack to take
22:37
advantage of drafting was a complete art that I knew nothing about.
22:41
And Dale Earnhardt took me under his wing because I think he felt sorry for me.
22:45
He said, you know, this is what you need to do.
22:47
And I listened to him because I knew, you know, Dale was the best.
22:51
And Dale was in every single IROC that I was in.
22:54
He only told me just so much.
22:55
He wouldn't tell me everything.
22:58
But he told me enough to keep myself safe and out of trouble.
23:02
Not to screw somebody else up with a move that you might make and not think
23:07
about what the consequence might be.
23:09
But it was a, it was a thrill and being able to come from a different form of
23:12
racing, sports car racing, and one go into that sort of stock car type of automobile.
23:19
Racing with Dale Earnhardt, Mark Martins, the Rusty Wallaces, with
23:24
Larry Arendyke, Michael Andretti, and all the guys from IndyCar.
23:28
It was a really big thrill and it was tons of fun.
23:31
I really enjoyed my, uh, I did it four times.
23:34
My best finish out of those four times I think was fourth.
23:37
I could have won the race if I just had not gotten greedy, but I just
23:43
tried to do that pass and got hung out and that was the end of that, but
23:46
it was, it was a thrill and a treat.
23:55
This episode is brought to you in part by the International
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Motor Racing Research Center.
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Its charter is to collect, share, and preserve the history
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The Center welcomes serious researchers and casual fans alike to share stories of
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They encourage research into any aspect of automotive history.
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org.
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