Latest / Conspiracy! The Show / The Magic Bullet Theory Reconsidered

Transcript

The Magic Bullet Theory Reconsidered · Conspiracy! The Show

0:10
Speaker 1: Welcome to Conspiracy The Show, the world's most trusted conspiracy
0:16
Speaker 1: theory podcast, with your hosts Adam Todd Brown and Olivia Hidar.
0:32
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy Show. I'm your host, Adam
0:39
Speaker 2: Todd Brown joining me. It's host Olivia Heidar's here.
0:42
Speaker 3: Hey, yes, it's me Olivia Hydar. Hi.
0:45
Speaker 2: How's it going, Olivia?
0:47
Speaker 3: It's okay, you know, same old, same old. On this end.
0:52
Speaker 2: We're recording this on a very special day for conspiracy theorists. No,
0:56
Speaker 2: I don't mean four twenty, I mean nine to eleven, right,
1:00
Speaker 2: and so of course we're talking about JFK today.
1:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're talking about JFK.
1:08
Speaker 2: Your parents nine to eleven.
1:10
Speaker 3: Basically the old nine to eleven.
1:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, although nine to eleven was also probably your parents
1:16
Speaker 2: nine to eleven, unless your dad died when you were
1:19
Speaker 2: real young like mine.
1:20
Speaker 3: Did a total idiot wow dork.
1:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean fucking dofis.
1:25
Speaker 3: It's kind of like nine to eleven. Although nine eleven,
1:28
Speaker 3: I will say, about fifteen hundred times more people died
1:33
Speaker 3: than during the JFK assassination.
1:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. They put up a lot more numbers on nine
1:38
Speaker 2: to eleven, yeah, than on I always forget was it
1:42
Speaker 2: November twenty third? When?
1:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, eleven twenty it was November twenty second.
1:47
Speaker 2: Okay, it was sixty three though, right, that's where yes from. Yeah, yeah,
1:51
Speaker 2: yeah that is Yeah, November twenty second, nineteen sixty three
1:55
Speaker 2: a date that will eleven in for me. Wait, no,
1:58
Speaker 2: that's the right date. Tragedy also got damn it.
2:00
Speaker 3: It's a date that will live as the title of
2:03
Speaker 3: a Stephen King book.
2:05
Speaker 2: A Stephen King book I've never read. I tried to
2:07
Speaker 2: watch the Hulu series and did not you'd like it.
2:10
Speaker 2: I didn't finish it, but I also didn't hate it
2:13
Speaker 2: when I was watching it. I think I just like
2:15
Speaker 2: it fell off.
2:16
Speaker 3: The series is kind of like the book, but boring.
2:19
Speaker 3: You should just read the book.
2:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I would prefer the book.
2:23
Speaker 2: That's how it shakes out a lot of times, so
2:25
Speaker 2: it's a fun time.
2:25
Speaker 3: It's mostly just about a guy being a teacher in
2:30
Speaker 3: Texas in the sixties, and then every once in a
2:32
Speaker 3: while the JFK assassination is brought up.
2:37
Speaker 2: Yeah. All I remember from the series is like James
2:40
Speaker 2: Franco had like a special portal to the JFK assassination
2:43
Speaker 2: that he could.
2:44
Speaker 3: Walk through some shit very basically.
2:47
Speaker 2: So we're talking about the magic bullet theory today because
2:52
Speaker 2: someone has come forward recently to cast some doubt on
2:56
Speaker 2: the magic bullet theory, which I'm gonna be honest, that's
2:59
Speaker 2: not a hall task. I don't think you don't have
3:04
Speaker 2: to do a lot of work to make the magic
3:06
Speaker 2: bullet theory seem not true. Because it seems not true.
3:10
Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't help that they call it the magic
3:12
Speaker 3: bullet theory.
3:14
Speaker 2: They don't though, That's what folks like me who think
3:17
Speaker 2: it's complete nonsense call, right. I call it the single
3:22
Speaker 2: bullet theory, sure, which that's the Warren Commission's term for it.
3:27
Speaker 2: They're the ones who came up with this theory. In
3:30
Speaker 2: my mind, the magic bullet theory is a thing like
3:33
Speaker 2: everyone who's ever listened to a conspiracy theory podcast already
3:36
Speaker 2: knows about. But maybe not, so we'll go through it.
3:40
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on the magic bullet theory?
3:43
Speaker 3: Man? You would have like there would have to be
3:47
Speaker 3: something crazy to happen to get me to give a
3:50
Speaker 3: single shit about JFK at this point, Like I just
3:56
Speaker 3: so beyond it.
3:57
Speaker 2: But that's not really the question, Like that you're beyond it,
4:01
Speaker 2: Like who isn't it happened like sixty years ago and we're.
4:04
Speaker 3: String exactly that's the thing.
4:07
Speaker 2: But we also have a podcast to record. Well, no,
4:10
Speaker 2: I know, I know, So like I'm just taking like,
4:14
Speaker 2: in terms of a theory, how well do you think
4:17
Speaker 2: it holds up?
4:18
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't think it holds up. But
4:21
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't help that most of the evidence
4:24
Speaker 3: for it doesn't really exist anymore. It's just this one bullet.
4:28
Speaker 3: And yeah, man, I don't know. I don't really I
4:31
Speaker 3: haven't really thought about the magic bullet, like until I
4:34
Speaker 3: read this article and like, yeah, I don't know, man,
4:39
Speaker 3: I don't know.
4:40
Speaker 2: The thing about that is it's like vital to the
4:43
Speaker 2: idea that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Sure, And I
4:49
Speaker 2: feel like, to me, the magic bullet theory is an
4:52
Speaker 2: example of instead of like doing science and letting that
4:58
Speaker 2: lead you to the correct explanation, this is like you
5:02
Speaker 2: come up with the explanation first, and now you're going
5:05
Speaker 2: to bend science to make it work.
5:08
Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.
5:10
Speaker 2: Which is a thing you saw a lot in the
5:14
Speaker 2: case of Michael Peterson. If you watch the Staircase documentary,
5:19
Speaker 2: there's a lot of points in that where the prosecution,
5:23
Speaker 2: instead of like recreating what they think happened and seeing
5:28
Speaker 2: if the evidence bears that out, they're doing these like
5:31
Speaker 2: reverse science experiments where they're trying to produce what happened
5:36
Speaker 2: at the crime scene. And that's backwards, it's not that's
5:38
Speaker 2: not how you do things. And that's kind of what
5:42
Speaker 2: happened with the magic bullet theory. It was first pushed
5:46
Speaker 2: by the Warren Commission in the course of their investigation
5:50
Speaker 2: into the assassination. And it's such a bananas theory to
5:54
Speaker 2: me that, like, I was three when the Warren Commission
5:59
Speaker 2: finally released their findings, so I couldn't do shit about it.
6:03
Speaker 2: I was a toddler. But it feels to me like
6:07
Speaker 2: the magic bullet theory is a social experiment that we
6:11
Speaker 2: as a country failed. Like it feels like the government
6:15
Speaker 2: pushing the most unlikely explanation in front of us and
6:19
Speaker 2: being like, this is what you get, magic magic JFK, crazy, huh,
6:25
Speaker 2: And we were just like, all right, I guess gas
6:28
Speaker 2: is really expensive right now, so I guess we don't
6:30
Speaker 2: fucking care.
6:31
Speaker 3: It was nineteen seventy, yeah, I mean, as always, you know,
6:35
Speaker 3: Americans have a lot of shit on their plate.
6:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's always a good time to drop
6:40
Speaker 2: stuff like the magic bullet theory because exactly people aren't
6:43
Speaker 2: going to question it. They have loved ones being held
6:46
Speaker 2: in Iran, not at all at the urging of the CIA.
6:49
Speaker 2: That's all right, episode. What really rubs me the wrong
6:53
Speaker 2: way about the magic bullet theory is the condition of
6:56
Speaker 2: that bullet. Like, we have pictures of it. There's pictures
6:59
Speaker 2: in the word Warren Commission, there's pictures in the articles
7:02
Speaker 2: we'll link to. It is in pristine condition. Yeah, like
7:08
Speaker 2: if it was a collector's item, like it would be
7:11
Speaker 2: graded pretty highly. Like it's in right. It looks like
7:14
Speaker 2: you could still shoot it.
7:17
Speaker 3: And they say that it only lost a couple grains
7:20
Speaker 3: of its usual weight, which is pretty unusual for a
7:24
Speaker 3: bullet that passed through a lot of things.
7:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a bullet that passed through Kennedy's neck
7:33
Speaker 2: somehow went through Kennedy's neck and then into the chest
7:38
Speaker 2: of Governor John Connolly, which that alone is quite a
7:42
Speaker 2: change in direction.
7:44
Speaker 3: Well, Kennedy was giving him ahead at the time.
7:48
Speaker 2: People always leave that part out.
7:51
Speaker 3: People forget and they were in a convertible and everybody
7:53
Speaker 3: could see.
7:55
Speaker 2: But did they want to see?
7:57
Speaker 3: No, they didn't. They turned their blind eye.
8:00
Speaker 2: Everyone accepts a pruder who is filming and jerking off
8:03
Speaker 2: at the same time. So yeah, it not only goes
8:08
Speaker 2: through John Connolly's chest, it then went through his right
8:12
Speaker 2: wrist and embedded itself in his left thigh. To pull
8:17
Speaker 2: this off, it would have had to travel through a
8:20
Speaker 2: back brace, fifteen layers of clothing, seven layers of skin,
8:25
Speaker 2: fifteen inches of muscle tissue, and on top of that,
8:29
Speaker 2: it had to pulverize four inches of John Connolly's rib
8:34
Speaker 2: bones and shatter his radius bone. And it comes out
8:38
Speaker 2: the other end of all that in just wah chef's
8:42
Speaker 2: kiss condition, just pretty as the day it was born.
8:46
Speaker 2: Still shiny, makes no sense.
8:49
Speaker 3: I feel like somebody probably polished it. I don't think
8:52
Speaker 3: it was shiny.
8:55
Speaker 2: Why would you polish evidence of crime?
8:58
Speaker 3: Well, that is a good quest question.
9:01
Speaker 2: I don't know. And like there's no way, like you
9:04
Speaker 2: have to be such a government rube to believe the
9:08
Speaker 2: magic bullet theory. No one fucking believes it. Even a
9:12
Speaker 2: good portion of the Warren Commission didn't even believe it.
9:16
Speaker 3: And as we all know I am a government rube,
9:18
Speaker 3: and so I'm here to totally discount any other alternative,
9:24
Speaker 3: are you No, I'm not. I don't really care. I
9:26
Speaker 3: don't care enough to put the energy into that. Are
9:28
Speaker 3: you kidding me?
9:29
Speaker 2: Well, I also don't think it's a thing anyone would
9:32
Speaker 2: be able to do. Like there's no looking at the
9:35
Speaker 2: magic bullet theory and going okay, no, here I can
9:37
Speaker 2: explain that. No, you can't. Like if anyone could explain it,
9:41
Speaker 2: it would be explained in a way that hasn't led
9:44
Speaker 2: to even more questions in the forty odd years since
9:48
Speaker 2: it came out.
9:49
Speaker 3: Like I would say, if a proper investigation had been
9:52
Speaker 3: done in the days after the assassination, then perhaps you
9:59
Speaker 3: could find evidence of an explanation that makes sense. But
10:04
Speaker 3: now in years after the fact, that's never happening.
10:10
Speaker 2: Right, But I mean, like just the magic bullet theory itself,
10:15
Speaker 2: Like right, the word magic is in it for a reason.
10:18
Speaker 3: Sure, but they call it the single bullet theory.
10:21
Speaker 2: Right, But like even that's crazy, Like you can look
10:26
Speaker 2: at the Zapruder film and see that there's more than
10:29
Speaker 2: one bullet, but did that second one? Just like not
10:32
Speaker 2: do well?
10:33
Speaker 3: The single bullet theory is not saying that there was
10:35
Speaker 3: only one bullet fired. Sure, it's just the one bullet
10:39
Speaker 3: is explaining all of this damage, right, But like, no,
10:42
Speaker 3: there were three shots fired.
10:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. There were lots of people who
10:48
Speaker 2: testified that they heard three shots. There were newspaper reports
10:53
Speaker 2: that came out, one of them issued by someone who
10:57
Speaker 2: was in the motorcade, like a few cars back, and
11:00
Speaker 2: they like almost immediately report that they heard three shots.
11:03
Speaker 2: Everyone heard three shots. But even according to the Warren Commission,
11:07
Speaker 2: there's only two shots, which that's also pretty suspect. Yeah,
11:13
Speaker 2: And the reason the magic bullet theory is so important
11:18
Speaker 2: is because despite what the Warren Commission claims, which is
11:21
Speaker 2: that even though the magic bullet theory is weird, it
11:24
Speaker 2: doesn't really inform their conclusion in the Warren Commission, which
11:28
Speaker 2: is that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. And when they
11:31
Speaker 2: issued that conclusion, they said this theory wasn't like vital
11:35
Speaker 2: to it. But it absolutely is sure because I think
11:39
Speaker 2: it was. The FBI initially also in their statement was
11:42
Speaker 2: that there were three shots fired. And so the Warren
11:45
Speaker 2: Commission starts looking into this idea and especially looking at
11:50
Speaker 2: the Zapruder film, which is like the only footage we
11:53
Speaker 2: have of the JFK assassination. And the reason the magic
11:56
Speaker 2: bullet theory is so crucial is because they found that
11:59
Speaker 2: Kennedy was wounded sometime between frames two ten and two
12:04
Speaker 2: twenty five of the subruder film. Governor Connelly was wounded
12:09
Speaker 2: in the back and chest no later than frame two forty,
12:14
Speaker 2: and that would not give Lee Harvey Oswald enough time
12:19
Speaker 2: to reload his gun and fire. Again, that was determined
12:23
Speaker 2: by the FBI. They had marksman test fire the same
12:26
Speaker 2: rifle Oswald used, and they found it takes approximately two
12:31
Speaker 2: and one quarter seconds to reload this gun, and that
12:35
Speaker 2: is forty one to forty two Zubruder film frames, and
12:40
Speaker 2: at most thirty frames passed between those two shots. So
12:45
Speaker 2: either there was another shooter or Harry Potter magic is
12:49
Speaker 2: at play here and this bullet just acted in ways
12:53
Speaker 2: that physics and science do not support. Sure, And like
12:57
Speaker 2: that's why people have had questions all these years. I mean, yeah,
13:02
Speaker 2: so but also like what are you gonna do about it?
13:04
Speaker 2: It's the government, you.
13:05
Speaker 3: Know, that is the question. What are you gonna do
13:09
Speaker 3: about it?
13:10
Speaker 2: And so yeah, they just like they couldn't explain how
13:14
Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald got those shots off. So the answer
13:17
Speaker 2: was magic. It was a magic bullet, right, And we
13:20
Speaker 2: as a nation did not care at all. We just
13:24
Speaker 2: let that go. I mean people cared, Yeah, people cared.
13:27
Speaker 2: Oliver Stone cared.
13:29
Speaker 3: Oliverstone really cared.
13:31
Speaker 2: Is JFK his best movie?
13:32
Speaker 3: I think probably? Probably? I would have to think about this. Yeah,
13:38
Speaker 3: it's a it's a narrow field.
13:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he doesn't have a ton of movies I love.
13:43
Speaker 2: I liked Platoon. I like JFK.
13:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, his early like yeah, that that mid Run is fine,
13:50
Speaker 3: and like, uh, Natural Born Killers has its stuff. Yeah,
13:55
Speaker 3: but like, yeah, I mean probably JFK is his magnum opus.
14:00
Speaker 3: He really said his peak.
14:01
Speaker 2: When he started interviewing Putin obviously.
14:03
Speaker 3: Well, of course yeah. Now, of course all of his
14:06
Speaker 3: films are great. I mean, who could forget? Uh? I mean,
14:12
Speaker 3: my favorite Oliver Stone film is World Trade Center.
14:15
Speaker 2: Oh sure. My favorite Oliver Stone film is his kid
14:20
Speaker 2: clearly being mefed up on an episode of Conspiracy Theory
14:23
Speaker 2: with Jesse Venture.
14:24
Speaker 3: That is his best work.
14:26
Speaker 2: His son is his work?
14:30
Speaker 3: Maybe Alexander? Yeah no, maybe Wall Streets.
14:34
Speaker 2: Oh I forgot about Yeah, he's got some movies. So
14:40
Speaker 2: back to the Warren Commission. Not only did Oliver Stone
14:44
Speaker 2: not believe it, three members of the Warren Commission also
14:47
Speaker 2: did not believe the magic bullet theory. Representative Hale Boggs,
14:52
Speaker 2: Senator Richard Russell, and Senator John Cooper all found the
14:57
Speaker 2: magic bullet theory to be highly improbable. Russell even requested
15:01
Speaker 2: that his objection be added as a footnote in the report.
15:05
Speaker 2: But in the end, despite not actually agreeing, all seven
15:10
Speaker 2: members signed off on the following statement, There was no
15:14
Speaker 2: question in the mind of any member of the Commission
15:17
Speaker 2: that all the shots which caused the presidents and Governor
15:20
Speaker 2: Connolly's wounds were fired from the sixth floor window of
15:23
Speaker 2: the Texas school Book Depository. Which how do you reconcile that, Like,
15:29
Speaker 2: I don't know how a person who receives this report
15:33
Speaker 2: and reads it is going to go okay. So three
15:36
Speaker 2: of you disagree on like the central tenet of your theory,
15:41
Speaker 2: but you also all agree on the theory.
15:45
Speaker 3: Well, I would say that that statement doesn't necessarily preclude
15:51
Speaker 3: they're being another shooter. They're just kind of saying that
15:55
Speaker 3: there were two shooters in the sixth floor of the
15:57
Speaker 3: book Depository, not really that they're were like others.
16:02
Speaker 2: Sure, but the Warren Commission decided that there was only
16:05
Speaker 2: one shooter. Like, no, I know that that is their conclusion.
16:08
Speaker 2: And this is the Warren Commission talking like that statement
16:11
Speaker 2: is from the Warren Commission. So three people who disagreed
16:16
Speaker 2: as to how these shots were fired are also like,
16:20
Speaker 2: but yeah, it was just Lee Harvey Hoswald, right, frustrating. Yeah,
16:24
Speaker 2: And yeah, like we already mentioned three shots fired at
16:28
Speaker 2: Kennedy's motorcade. Those were all the headlines after this happened.
16:32
Speaker 2: Three shots fired. One report came from someone who was
16:36
Speaker 2: in the motorcade, and like, it's not like Bobby Kennedy,
16:40
Speaker 2: where there's like, I think eight or nine shots and
16:45
Speaker 2: you like really have to listen to hear them. All Right,
16:48
Speaker 2: No one's going to be on the fence about whether
16:51
Speaker 2: it was two or three. Granted, there were lots of
16:54
Speaker 2: witnesses who said anything from one shot to like eight shots,
16:58
Speaker 2: but I mean sure, but the people who were in
17:01
Speaker 2: the motorcade and like, acting in their official capacity as
17:05
Speaker 2: a news reporter, I don't know that you'd fuck that up.
17:09
Speaker 2: And three seems to be the consensus like if you
17:12
Speaker 2: they have a breakdown somewhere out there of all the
17:15
Speaker 2: witnesses and the numbers they reported, and it's like not
17:18
Speaker 2: even close. The number of people who reported three compared
17:22
Speaker 2: to those strays who were like two, five, six, that's
17:26
Speaker 2: like a handful of people. And then like the whole
17:28
Speaker 2: crowd pretty much was like nope, three, we heard three.
17:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
17:33
Speaker 2: And I think that's also questionable because the whole thing is, well,
17:37
Speaker 2: he didn't get like, he didn't really have time to
17:40
Speaker 2: get those two shots off. How the hell did he
17:42
Speaker 2: get three off?
17:45
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, I.
17:46
Speaker 2: Don't know either. So now let's talk about Paul Landis, right,
17:50
Speaker 2: Paul Landis has recently come forward with new information about
17:56
Speaker 2: the magic bullet theory. And the thing about Paul Landis
18:00
Speaker 2: he was a Secret Service agent. He was in the
18:03
Speaker 2: Kennedy motorcade. And something we have not mentioned about the
18:08
Speaker 2: magic bullet theory so far is that the bullet in
18:11
Speaker 2: question was found on a stretcher that was believed to
18:15
Speaker 2: have been used to transport Governor Connolly, who did survive
18:19
Speaker 2: the shooting, by the way, yes, yeah, and it was
18:22
Speaker 2: assumed that it quote fell out of his body end quote.
18:26
Speaker 2: While doctors were working to say the weapens. No, it doesn't. No,
18:31
Speaker 2: it doesn't, it isn't. No, no, no, bullets don't just
18:34
Speaker 2: fall out. It's a fucking bullet that the body.
18:38
Speaker 3: Is like a sack. Basically, if you shake it enough,
18:41
Speaker 3: everything will come.
18:42
Speaker 2: Out your body. There's a wonder sack. Paul Landis was
18:48
Speaker 2: never interviewed by the Warren Commission, and it seems like
18:52
Speaker 2: he maybe should have been.
18:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like for no other reason than the
18:57
Speaker 3: fact that he was a Secret Service agents on duty
19:02
Speaker 3: during that motorcade. Maybe seems like that's an easy list
19:06
Speaker 3: of guys that you want to interview.
19:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems like a no brainer. It seems like
19:11
Speaker 2: all Secret Service agents you're going to talk to. And
19:14
Speaker 2: this guy was assigned to protect Jackie Kennedy, who also
19:18
Speaker 2: kind of a key figure in this just in the
19:21
Speaker 2: fact that she was right there, So that means Paul
19:24
Speaker 2: Landis was right there also. And his claim is that
19:30
Speaker 2: the bullet that they found on the stretcher that went
19:33
Speaker 2: on to be flagged as the magic bullet, the single bullet.
19:38
Speaker 2: He says he found that bullet lodged in the seat
19:41
Speaker 2: behind Kennedy. Yeah, and it was in the presidential limousine,
19:47
Speaker 2: lodged in the back seat. He says he spotted the
19:49
Speaker 2: bullet after the motorcade arrived at the hospital and took
19:53
Speaker 2: it just to like thwart any potential souvenir hunters, right,
19:58
Speaker 2: and then, for reasons he himself isn't completely sure of,
20:03
Speaker 2: he says he entered the hospital and placed the bullet
20:06
Speaker 2: next to Kennedy on the stretcher he was on, assuming
20:10
Speaker 2: it might be useful to doctors working on the president.
20:14
Speaker 2: And what he thinks happened is maybe at some point
20:17
Speaker 2: those two stretchers, Connolly and Kennedy were next to each other,
20:21
Speaker 2: and in all the commotion, the bullet got like jostled
20:24
Speaker 2: and moved over to Connolly's stretcher, right right. And here's
20:30
Speaker 2: the thing that's also a pretty wild story. Yeah, it's
20:34
Speaker 2: not like unbelievable, but it's just like a weird series
20:38
Speaker 2: of steps to take.
20:40
Speaker 3: It is I would say, though, that's a that's a
20:42
Speaker 3: day for a lot of weird events happening.
20:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a scene. Like it's a thing we bring
20:48
Speaker 2: up all the time on this podcast, like you can't
20:50
Speaker 2: really judge someone's actions in the most stressful situation they've
20:56
Speaker 2: ever been in totally and point at that and go, well,
20:59
Speaker 2: why is that person acting so weird? And Sandy Hook
21:02
Speaker 2: is always the best.
21:04
Speaker 3: Touchdown for that, sure, Yeah.
21:07
Speaker 2: Because so much of Sandy Hook is well, why was
21:10
Speaker 2: that coroner acting so weird? Why are these parents acting
21:13
Speaker 2: so weird?
21:13
Speaker 3: Yeah? Maybe it's because they just saw like a bunch
21:15
Speaker 3: of dead children, Yeah, who all were murdered horribly.
21:20
Speaker 2: Yeah. Why didn't the authorities let the parents go into school?
21:23
Speaker 2: I don't know, because it's a crime scene littered with
21:25
Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of dead kids that they're gonna have
21:27
Speaker 2: to step over to get to their dead.
21:29
Speaker 3: Kid, right, Like, that's not how any of that works.
21:34
Speaker 2: Ever, It is never, ever how that works. And same
21:38
Speaker 2: thing here with this guy's story, Like it's weird, Like
21:43
Speaker 2: it's a weird series of steps to take. But sure
21:47
Speaker 2: I could imagine like grabbing that bullet and walking with
21:51
Speaker 2: it in my pocket for a second and then being
21:53
Speaker 2: like I shouldn't have this.
21:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely not that you want to have on your person.
22:02
Speaker 3: On the David Kennedy was assassinated, and it.
22:04
Speaker 2: Seems like that's kind of where Paul Landis is coming from.
22:08
Speaker 2: It seems like he did this and then immediately was like, ooh,
22:13
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have done that. That was probably as it's
22:16
Speaker 2: probably a bad idea, and I can see someone making
22:19
Speaker 2: a mistake like that in that moment. Yeah, this is
22:22
Speaker 2: a quote from Paul Landis. There was nobody there to
22:25
Speaker 2: secure the scene, and that was a big, big bother
22:27
Speaker 2: to me. All the agents that were there were focused
22:30
Speaker 2: on the president. This was all going on so quickly,
22:33
Speaker 2: and I was just afraid that it was a piece
22:36
Speaker 2: of evidence that I realized right away very important and
22:40
Speaker 2: I didn't want it to disappear or get lost. So
22:43
Speaker 2: it was Paul, You've got to make a decision, and
22:46
Speaker 2: I grabbed it and quote which, yeah, what do you
22:49
Speaker 2: do in that situation? Do you leave the bullet? Do
22:52
Speaker 2: you grab it? Who knows? I'm sure what I would do.
22:54
Speaker 3: I don't either.
22:55
Speaker 2: I mean, eBay exists now, so I kind of know.
22:59
Speaker 3: Yeah now it happened today. Yeah, but also I feel
23:03
Speaker 3: like my relationship with the presidency is a lot different
23:06
Speaker 3: than it would have been in nineteen sixty three.
23:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, I just I don't know. I mean,
23:12
Speaker 2: today I see that bullet, I'm probably high tailing at
23:15
Speaker 2: the Vegas to appear on an episode of pawnd Stars,
23:19
Speaker 2: and you know what, that probably wouldn't be the right
23:22
Speaker 2: decision either. I'm sure, sure, I'm sure Big Hoss would
23:25
Speaker 2: be like one second, dude and come back with the
23:27
Speaker 2: FBI and have me arrested.
23:29
Speaker 3: H I can't imagine that Big Hoss would be a rat.
23:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably not, but he's had some legal trouble of
23:38
Speaker 2: his own. They might dangle that.
23:40
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
23:43
Speaker 2: And so despite Paul Landis having this information in his
23:47
Speaker 2: back pocket and knowing that this bullet is the one
23:51
Speaker 2: that led to the magic bullet theory, for all these years,
23:55
Speaker 2: he says he has still mostly believed that Lee Harvey
23:58
Speaker 2: Oswald acted alone and shared all of the bullets. I
24:02
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know how you reconcile those two
24:06
Speaker 2: thoughts in your head, But I've never watched the president's
24:09
Speaker 2: head explode fifty feet in front of me, either.
24:12
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I don't know. Man, Like, I don't think
24:16
Speaker 3: it's that crazy to think that Oswald did it himself,
24:19
Speaker 3: but there are definitely a lot of weird circumstances surrounding
24:24
Speaker 3: it that make it a weird event. Yeas someone who
24:28
Speaker 3: is there, I understand, just being like, yeah, that makes
24:31
Speaker 3: sense enough to me. I don't want to put too
24:33
Speaker 3: much more thought into this.
24:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's got to be the other thing, Like, by
24:39
Speaker 2: the time the War and Commission report comes out, it's
24:42
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine, and in terms of the government, definitely
24:48
Speaker 2: not murdering progressive leaders in this country. JFK was like
24:54
Speaker 2: literally the tip of the iceberg. Like, right, he was first,
24:58
Speaker 2: but we spent the better part of the sixties just
25:02
Speaker 2: assassinating progressives in this country. And I gotta imagine by
25:09
Speaker 2: the time nineteen seventy nine rolls around, you're just like, shit, man,
25:12
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say nothing, not trying to assassinate it. Also,
25:16
Speaker 2: sure that makes sense, and so the question is like
25:20
Speaker 2: why come forward now? Like right, And I mean my
25:24
Speaker 2: guess and a lot of other people's guess is he's
25:27
Speaker 2: trying to clear his conscience. This guy's eighty eight years old, Like, yeah,
25:31
Speaker 2: he's trying to get what he knows out there. Either
25:34
Speaker 2: that or he's just part of some other bigger, massive
25:38
Speaker 2: conspiracy who knows, or.
25:40
Speaker 3: He was like so many seniors radicalized by conspiracy theorists,
25:46
Speaker 3: which seems to be the case because they talk about
25:49
Speaker 3: him you know, getting a book and like people talking
25:53
Speaker 3: to him and seeking him out and all this stuff,
25:55
Speaker 3: And I don't know, Man, seems like maybe he's just like,
25:58
Speaker 3: I have this unique window into this event. It's time
26:02
Speaker 3: for me to let my story be heard.
26:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, and provided his story is true, I'm fine with
26:09
Speaker 2: it happening that way, sure, because I mean, between the two,
26:14
Speaker 2: his story is the more believable, absolutely, Like, it's way
26:18
Speaker 2: more believable than the idea that this bullet traversed all
26:22
Speaker 2: of those barriers, Yeah, and came out the other end
26:25
Speaker 2: looking like a new bullet.
26:27
Speaker 3: It makes sense that it's just a different bullet than
26:29
Speaker 3: the one that caused those injuries, which is what he's
26:33
Speaker 3: basically saying.
26:35
Speaker 2: Right, But then they also never found the bullet that
26:37
Speaker 2: caused all those injuries, if that's the case, which come sure,
26:40
Speaker 2: but again blows up that theory.
26:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, but have you have we heard about any of
26:46
Speaker 3: the other bullets, Like, I don't think we've found I
26:48
Speaker 3: don't know how many bullets, but from the jfk assassination
26:51
Speaker 3: we found.
26:52
Speaker 2: Well, they took his brain, for one thing. Well, I
26:55
Speaker 2: knew that I remember that one of those bullets might
26:58
Speaker 2: have been in that head. That exploed loaded.
27:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like but again the head exploded and like
27:04
Speaker 3: a bunch of the stuff that was inside of it
27:06
Speaker 3: is now outside, which we see pictures of in this
27:09
Speaker 3: New York Times article. By the way, Yeah, it's very graphic.
27:13
Speaker 2: Pretty graphic. But yeah, this was such a big investigation.
27:17
Speaker 2: Like if the bullet just like bounced out onto the street,
27:21
Speaker 2: I feel.
27:21
Speaker 3: Like, well, that's what I'm saying, Like, I don't know
27:23
Speaker 3: what happened to those other bullets. This is the only
27:26
Speaker 3: bullet I know the location of.
27:29
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I also know what didn't happen to
27:31
Speaker 2: any of those bullets, and it's that none of them
27:35
Speaker 2: passed through Kennedy's neck, went into Connolly's chest, came out
27:39
Speaker 2: as wrist, passed through a back brace, shattered a few ribs,
27:43
Speaker 2: and then came out shining like a new diamond.
27:46
Speaker 3: Like right, I don't think that happened either.
27:48
Speaker 2: Even if this isn't the same bullet, that bullet did
27:51
Speaker 2: not happen, like there's no fucking right, Like.
27:55
Speaker 3: Well right, but that what I'm saying is like the
27:58
Speaker 3: whole thing about the magic bullet, part of it is
28:00
Speaker 3: that it's totally undamaged and that undamaged bullet Is this
28:06
Speaker 3: one that we're talking about that heat found right that
28:09
Speaker 3: it turns out wasn't the magic bullet. It was it
28:12
Speaker 3: went through Kennedy only.
28:13
Speaker 2: But that's not the conclusion. Like the bullet he found
28:17
Speaker 2: is the bullet that they call the magic bullet.
28:20
Speaker 3: I know that, But it didn't. It didn't do the
28:23
Speaker 3: things that they say it did. It only went through Kennedy.
28:26
Speaker 3: How do you know that the bullet because he found
28:28
Speaker 3: it lodged in his seat.
28:31
Speaker 2: He found it lodged in his seat. He didn't find
28:33
Speaker 2: it lodged in Kennedy like it was I know. So
28:36
Speaker 2: it like went in Kennedy and like fucking backed out
28:39
Speaker 2: what the bully wasn't He didn't find the bullet lodged
28:44
Speaker 2: in John Kennedy. It was in the seat behind him.
28:48
Speaker 2: So Hi, So that bullet you think went through Kennedy
28:52
Speaker 2: and then back into the seat.
28:54
Speaker 3: I don't know, I've gotten some geography. We're mixed up here.
28:57
Speaker 3: I don't know.
28:58
Speaker 2: I don't know, because I mean that would explain the
29:01
Speaker 2: lack of damage. It didn't go through anyone. It was
29:04
Speaker 2: just right. It was just an extra bullet that was
29:08
Speaker 2: found and used to come up with the conclusion in
29:13
Speaker 2: the fucking JKA assassination, which that's nuts, Like, I don't Yeah,
29:17
Speaker 2: I don't know what this bullet was, but I don't
29:20
Speaker 2: think it hit anybody sure, which means.
29:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's possible.
29:24
Speaker 2: But we also know two shots hit him, So then
29:27
Speaker 2: where did this spent bullet come from? Like that I
29:30
Speaker 2: think would speak to there being a different shooter.
29:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say I if this guy's report is accurate,
29:38
Speaker 3: it does kind of put the kaibash on my favorite
29:41
Speaker 3: JFK conspiracy, which is that one of the Secret Service
29:44
Speaker 3: agents maybe he's hiding the fact that he shot Kennedy
29:49
Speaker 3: in the head.
29:49
Speaker 2: I mean, it could be, but I don't think this
29:52
Speaker 2: this idea blows that theory up at all, because that's
29:54
Speaker 2: also my favorite theory. It's I think the most sound
29:58
Speaker 2: JFK theory there is. There's a document Henry about it
30:00
Speaker 2: that I bring up all the time called JFK the
30:02
Speaker 2: Smoking Gun, And that theory comes from the one guy
30:06
Speaker 2: who was able to recreate Oswald's shots because remember CBS tried.
30:12
Speaker 2: They had like a huge group of firearms experts, marksmen,
30:17
Speaker 2: ballistics experts all try and recreate these shots. And only
30:21
Speaker 2: one guy was able to do it, and he was like,
30:24
Speaker 2: if it was that hard for me, Lee Harvey Oswald
30:26
Speaker 2: didn't fucking do this alone. And he spent decades looking
30:31
Speaker 2: at the ballistics evidence, and what he came up with
30:33
Speaker 2: was that Kennedy was clearly hit by two different types
30:38
Speaker 2: of bullets. And what I love about that theory is
30:42
Speaker 2: it makes everyone right, like right, yes, Lee Harvey Oswald
30:46
Speaker 2: was the only assassin on the scene, but yes, another
30:49
Speaker 2: bullet did hit Kennedy. It's just that it was an accident.
30:52
Speaker 2: And yes, of course the American government covered that shit up, Like, yeah,
30:57
Speaker 2: you're not going to come out and be like, oop,
30:59
Speaker 2: see whoopsie, secret Service shot Kennedy in the head. But
31:04
Speaker 2: I do think that's what happened, and I wouldn't be
31:07
Speaker 2: surprised if this guy is more coming forward to hopefully
31:11
Speaker 2: try and get that story out.
31:13
Speaker 3: Yeah maybe he did it.
31:15
Speaker 2: Yeah maybe. But in the documentary they identify the guy
31:20
Speaker 2: that they think did it.
31:22
Speaker 3: Oh it was the different guy.
31:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's a picture of him starting to stand up,
31:27
Speaker 2: and which is such a wild picture. I don't think
31:30
Speaker 2: I had seen it before that documentary, But he's like
31:32
Speaker 2: standing up with the gun. And yeah, the theory there
31:35
Speaker 2: is that Secret Service did it on accident. I mean,
31:39
Speaker 2: that's I think the most plausible theory.
31:42
Speaker 3: Now's the only non Oswald working alone theory that has
31:47
Speaker 3: mad any sense to me.
31:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I won't say it's my favorite theory. My
31:54
Speaker 2: favorite theory is that JFK's limo driver shot him with
31:58
Speaker 2: a shellfish toxin bullet. The reason it's my favorite I
32:02
Speaker 2: don't think it's true. But no, well, here's the thing.
32:06
Speaker 2: You scoff at the idea of the shellfish stuff. Okay,
32:10
Speaker 2: go watch the Church Committee hearings where the CIA director
32:14
Speaker 2: produces the shellfish tocsin gun and shows how it works.
32:20
Speaker 2: I don't think JFK was killed with it, but the
32:23
Speaker 2: CIA absolutely looked into shellfish tocsin as a means of assassination.
32:28
Speaker 2: That's not a joke, Like it sounds funny, but it does,
32:34
Speaker 2: I know. But they also did it.
32:36
Speaker 3: And.
32:38
Speaker 2: It's like they testified to it in public.
32:41
Speaker 3: No I'm not. That wasn't a laugh of dismissal. That
32:44
Speaker 3: was a laugh of this is funny.
32:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean unless they like killed people that way, which.
32:53
Speaker 3: Well sure, but that's a funny way to kill someone.
32:55
Speaker 3: I will know.
32:56
Speaker 2: It's actually a really like it's kind of the most
33:01
Speaker 2: humane way to assassinate someone because you just sort of
33:04
Speaker 2: peacefully die in a few seconds. There's not a lot
33:07
Speaker 2: of pain. You just kind of go limp and die.
33:10
Speaker 2: Because shellfish toksin is like you can synthesize it into
33:14
Speaker 2: a chemical weapon, and I did in an episode a
33:19
Speaker 2: while back where when I was talking about the book
33:22
Speaker 2: Behold a Pale Horse, which is where that theory kind
33:25
Speaker 2: of first came from. Like there was a point where
33:29
Speaker 2: it was ordered that we had to like get rid
33:32
Speaker 2: of all of our chemical weapons, and a bunch of
33:35
Speaker 2: shellfish toksin just like went missing. So it's like just
33:40
Speaker 2: out there somewhere still. Yeah, And like I love that theory,
33:44
Speaker 2: but I also don't believe it mostly. Well, well, for
33:49
Speaker 2: one thing, I don't think like even if we had
33:51
Speaker 2: that technology, which we clearly did by some point in history,
33:54
Speaker 2: I don't know that we had it then. I don't
33:56
Speaker 2: know that by s well sure.
33:58
Speaker 3: And also it's kind of a moot point when we
34:00
Speaker 3: have video footage of Jackie O taking a shower in
34:04
Speaker 3: JFK's brains from the day, so like it doesn't really matter.
34:09
Speaker 2: There's that when William Cooper was selling the theory, though
34:12
Speaker 2: he did sell his own version of the Subruder film
34:16
Speaker 2: that was like slowed down to show you where this
34:20
Speaker 2: shooting happened. But my problem with it on top of
34:24
Speaker 2: the fact that everything Bill Cooper ever said was like
34:26
Speaker 2: based on one memory from like nineteen sixty five, but
34:31
Speaker 2: beyond that, the way he describes the shellfish tocsin gun
34:36
Speaker 2: that he claims the limo driver used to kill JFK. Yeah,
34:40
Speaker 2: it doesn't work the way the one the CIA later
34:43
Speaker 2: produced works because he was like, well the limo driver.
34:48
Speaker 2: Of course you're gonna have the limo driver do it
34:51
Speaker 2: because you want someone close in case the shellfish toksin
34:54
Speaker 2: doesn't work. You want the bullet or the pellet to
34:57
Speaker 2: explode in their head. And it's like, well then why
35:00
Speaker 2: why not just shoot him in the face if that's
35:03
Speaker 2: the thing. And also that's not how the delivery system
35:06
Speaker 2: for this shellfish talks and weapon worked. It was like
35:10
Speaker 2: truly movie shit where it's not a bullet, it's like
35:13
Speaker 2: a little neat Yeah.
35:14
Speaker 3: It's a dirt. Yeah yeah, I'm just saying like this
35:18
Speaker 3: is what I'm saying, Like that makes no sense because
35:22
Speaker 3: you use the self. The shellfish talks when you want
35:25
Speaker 3: to quietly murder someone without people drawing a bunch of
35:29
Speaker 3: attention to it, you don't do that in public. And
35:33
Speaker 3: then I guess have someone else shoot him in the
35:37
Speaker 3: head for good measure.
35:39
Speaker 2: And also having the person who shoots him in the
35:42
Speaker 2: head to cover it up, putting them in a six
35:44
Speaker 2: floor book depository way up there. Wait, you're away. You're
35:49
Speaker 2: really rolling the dice on those shots, missing Kennedy and
35:52
Speaker 2: then he just dies anyway, Like.
35:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, we's so you don't want that guy that possibly
35:58
Speaker 3: get away, you would put him close so we can
36:00
Speaker 3: get captured.
36:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it just doesn't make sense at all. Yeah,
36:04
Speaker 2: it's my favorite theory. I just don't believe it. But yeah,
36:08
Speaker 2: like from an entertainment standpoint, it's my favorite.
36:11
Speaker 3: So wait, okay, this is not the point of the episode,
36:14
Speaker 3: but I do need to know. Yes, So, like, is
36:17
Speaker 3: the chain of events that he's describing. The limo driver
36:20
Speaker 3: shoots JFK with the with the poison, and then as
36:25
Speaker 3: JFK is dying, he has Lee Harvey Oswald shoot him.
36:31
Speaker 2: No, it's that once Lee Harvey Oswald shoots and all
36:35
Speaker 2: the commotion starts, the limo driver just turns around and
36:38
Speaker 2: shoots Kennedy while everyone else is distracted, which.
36:42
Speaker 3: Well, why not just shoot it with a gun?
36:45
Speaker 2: I get exactly. That was exactly my objection to the
36:48
Speaker 2: theory makes no sense, Like it's such an elaborate ruse,
36:53
Speaker 2: when if we're talking shellfish talks and couldn't you just
36:57
Speaker 2: had this motherfucker eat lobster at one of his events
37:00
Speaker 2: and then like fuck shoot him on the way out
37:02
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, who knew a guy from Massachusetts
37:05
Speaker 2: is this? Yeah, the shellfish talking gun doesn't make sense,
37:13
Speaker 2: but I am obsessed with the shellfish talks and gun,
37:16
Speaker 2: and I do need to know it sounds like, sounds
37:19
Speaker 2: like that.
37:19
Speaker 3: Guy just he just heard about the idea of a
37:22
Speaker 3: shellfish talks and gun. It was like, what if they
37:25
Speaker 3: used THATFK? Not thinking whether that makes sense.
37:29
Speaker 2: Right, And yeah, I don't know that they JFK exhibited
37:33
Speaker 2: And I don't know why we're debating this, Like me,
37:36
Speaker 2: neither thing didn't happen. I just think it's fun. But
37:40
Speaker 2: I do also think the Secret Service accidentally shooting him
37:44
Speaker 2: is probably the most sound theory. It explains so much.
37:50
Speaker 2: It also explains like if you watch the Suppruder film,
37:53
Speaker 2: he reacts differently each time he shot, as if he's
37:57
Speaker 2: being hit by different types of bullets, Like one of
38:00
Speaker 2: the bullets like exploderes and the other just goes through him.
38:04
Speaker 2: And Yeah, that theory is that it's because there were
38:08
Speaker 2: two different types of bullets. What the Secret Service is
38:10
Speaker 2: shooting and what Lee Harvey Oswall was shooting.
38:13
Speaker 3: So my big question with this Paul Land, this guy,
38:16
Speaker 3: uh huh, what the fuck is this book gonna be?
38:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my question.
38:20
Speaker 3: Sounds boring.
38:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a book coming out October tenth or
38:26
Speaker 2: something called The Final Witness. Yeah, and I know, like
38:30
Speaker 2: conventional wisdom would say that you and I wait for
38:33
Speaker 2: that book to come out and read it and then
38:36
Speaker 2: do this episode, But like, what the fuck else is
38:38
Speaker 2: gonna be in it? Other thing?
38:40
Speaker 3: Right exactly?
38:42
Speaker 2: Like I feel like they really this feels like a
38:44
Speaker 2: government plot, Like, yeah, we'll give you a write up
38:47
Speaker 2: in the New York Times now the one's whatever, gonna
38:50
Speaker 2: read your book because we just told everyone what's in it.
38:54
Speaker 3: Well, because like I got to the end of this
38:55
Speaker 3: thing and I'm like, why did the New York Times
38:58
Speaker 3: write an article about this guy? There's not anything in
39:01
Speaker 3: this article really other than a few him talking about
39:05
Speaker 3: this for like a few paragraphs and then that's it.
39:08
Speaker 3: I mean, it makes it sound like it's gonna be
39:10
Speaker 3: a memoir and I don't want to read about this
39:12
Speaker 3: guy's life.
39:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to read this guy's memoir at all.
39:15
Speaker 2: I mean, his claim about that bullet is pretty important.
39:19
Speaker 3: Like it it's interesting.
39:21
Speaker 2: Like it kind of blows up the magic bullet theory
39:24
Speaker 2: if he's right, because then it's clearly not the bullet
39:28
Speaker 2: they say it is, unless it's even more magic and
39:31
Speaker 2: it like reshaped itself into a bullet and then just
39:34
Speaker 2: went and nestled behind Kennedy for the rest of the trip.
39:37
Speaker 2: But sure, beyond that, like what he's saying does really
39:41
Speaker 2: poke some holes in that theory. But like so what,
39:44
Speaker 2: like what's gonna come of it? That's the frustrating thing
39:47
Speaker 2: is there's still as much as they've released about Kennedy,
39:52
Speaker 2: there's still those last few pages that are still classified,
39:57
Speaker 2: and god damn it, I feel like that's where they're like, actually,
40:00
Speaker 2: the Secret Service accidentally did it? Sure, And you know what,
40:04
Speaker 2: maybe I feel like if they just came out and
40:06
Speaker 2: said that I don't think there would be the amount
40:09
Speaker 2: of uproar that people think there would be, even if
40:12
Speaker 2: we knew they actively covered it up, right. I think
40:15
Speaker 2: at this point in history, we have so many bigger
40:18
Speaker 2: fish to fry. I don't think people would be that alarmed.
40:21
Speaker 3: It's also nobody would care. They'd be joking about it
40:24
Speaker 3: for a few days on Twitter, and then it would
40:27
Speaker 3: be forgotten like everything else that happens.
40:29
Speaker 2: Either that or we would just still act like it's
40:32
Speaker 2: a conspiracy theory even though the government is just straight
40:35
Speaker 2: up saying it. Who knows? Yep, Yeah, they need to
40:39
Speaker 2: just just declassify everything. Fucking get it over with. Come on,
40:43
Speaker 2: JFK and Elvis both. I need the rest of Elvis's file,
40:48
Speaker 2: the part that's still classified for national reasons. I need
40:52
Speaker 2: to know what those national security reasons are.
40:55
Speaker 3: He was just Elvis, just Elvis.
40:59
Speaker 2: I mean, he was us Elvis, like he was a
41:01
Speaker 2: big time performer, but he wasn't as far as we know,
41:05
Speaker 2: he wasn't a government asset of any sort. So release
41:09
Speaker 2: the rest of those files. Let me know what Argentina
41:13
Speaker 2: he lived the rest of his life. Sucks that he
41:15
Speaker 2: had to live with all those Nazis for the rest.
41:18
Speaker 3: Of the US, right, I know I would not choose
41:20
Speaker 3: my post identity change location to be Argentina.
41:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think you get to choose though. At
41:28
Speaker 2: least he saw Maradonna win a World Cup.
41:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go, exactly. Sorry I was going to say.
41:34
Speaker 2: I know you were probably Yeah, I know you were
41:35
Speaker 2: going to say that. Sorry.
41:36
Speaker 3: Okay.
41:40
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's the other thing about this guy. He's
41:42
Speaker 2: got a book coming out, yes, And on the one hand,
41:44
Speaker 2: it's tempting to be like, well, there's there's why he
41:47
Speaker 2: would lie. He's going to make a billion dollars off
41:50
Speaker 2: this book. No, he's not. No one, No one's going
41:53
Speaker 2: to buy this book, Like I'm not going to buy it. No,
41:56
Speaker 2: like I've heard it.
41:57
Speaker 3: Will be the same hardcore people who every one of
42:00
Speaker 3: these books. Yeah, who buys it.
42:03
Speaker 2: And like, I do think this guy believes what he's saying.
42:07
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily not believe him. I mean, there's some
42:12
Speaker 2: discrepancies in his story. He did issue a statement like
42:16
Speaker 2: almost immediately after the Kennedy assassination where he didn't mention
42:22
Speaker 2: any of this stuff, right, he said he heard two
42:25
Speaker 2: shots and that was it, which I know that seems
42:29
Speaker 2: suspect at first, but also imagine you're the guy that
42:33
Speaker 2: like Pilford evidence from Kennedy's limousine and then just haphazardly
42:38
Speaker 2: tossed it on a stretcher, and now they're asking you
42:41
Speaker 2: what happened. You're not going to say that part. You're
42:45
Speaker 2: not going to admit to tampering with evidence. And he
42:47
Speaker 2: even says that, he's like, by the time they asked
42:50
Speaker 2: me for a statement, I was like, oh, did I
42:53
Speaker 2: do something wrong? I might have done something wrong here.
42:56
Speaker 2: So he wasn't honest in his statement, which, right, I
43:00
Speaker 2: know that's like the statement's contradictory to what he's saying now.
43:03
Speaker 2: But I think that's a pretty valid explanation. Sure, And
43:07
Speaker 2: I think it's as questionable that his statement changed. I
43:12
Speaker 2: find it equally questionable that the Warren Commission never interviewed him.
43:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, they should have. That was a real oversight.
43:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like he was in the motorcade, he was protecting
43:24
Speaker 2: Jackie Kennedy.
43:25
Speaker 3: It makes no sense to not interview all of those people.
43:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, no sense at all. And his thinking for a
43:32
Speaker 2: long time was, well, a bunch of Secret Service agents
43:36
Speaker 2: went out and like partied till five in the morning
43:39
Speaker 2: before that happened.
43:41
Speaker 3: No, he makes it clear that they were not drinking
43:44
Speaker 3: until five in the morning. Uh yeah in Dallas.
43:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we're just doing loads of coke kidney exactly,
43:53
Speaker 2: get drunk. That's irresponsible. Yeah, he for a lot of
43:56
Speaker 2: years thought they were just kind of protecting the agents
44:00
Speaker 2: who went out, which in retrospect that doesn't make a
44:03
Speaker 2: ton of sense. But I mean, this guy would have
44:05
Speaker 2: his reasons for sure not being completely upfront at first,
44:11
Speaker 2: and finally, at the age of eighty eight coming out
44:15
Speaker 2: and telling the story. Although yeah, the book, I can't
44:18
Speaker 2: do it. I know, I know, the book is just
44:19
Speaker 2: going to be like sixty years of not telling.
44:22
Speaker 3: This story in nineteen forty five, and I.
44:26
Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, hard pass on that. Which, yeah, that's why
44:31
Speaker 2: I found this article. Well, link to the article. That's
44:33
Speaker 2: what I found so fascinating about it. It's like, who's
44:36
Speaker 2: going to read the book after this?
44:38
Speaker 3: Sure?
44:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the big explosive detail is like right there
44:42
Speaker 2: in this New York Times article.
44:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know, but yeah.
44:46
Speaker 2: I mean, if anyone wants to read it and get
44:48
Speaker 2: back to us and tell us if there's any anything
44:50
Speaker 2: else interesting, what if it's just ten chapters about how
44:54
Speaker 2: aliens actually killed jf in New York Times.
44:58
Speaker 3: That would be more interesting seeing than most of the
45:01
Speaker 3: JFK theories, So I would be into that. It would
45:06
Speaker 3: be funny, Like he would probably make the same amount
45:09
Speaker 3: of money from this book if it was not a
45:12
Speaker 3: book and it was just a pamphlet doing step by
45:15
Speaker 3: step what he did on the day that JFK was assassinated.
45:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would make more money monetizing a YouTube video
45:22
Speaker 2: about him, Yeah, and selling a book at this point,
45:26
Speaker 2: like he really is aiming for like that baby boomer
45:30
Speaker 2: conspiracy elements out there, like yeah, the youngs are fucking
45:34
Speaker 2: with you know, QAnon and Skippity toilet. So I think
45:40
Speaker 2: that's our episode. Do we have any final thoughts on
45:42
Speaker 2: Paul Landis. I don't not believe him.
45:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I've got no reason to think he's
45:47
Speaker 3: being dishonest. Yeah, no, not really. He found this bullet,
45:53
Speaker 3: and I think that that is definitely worthy of a
45:56
Speaker 3: full book.
45:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. I just like, I'm glad he
46:01
Speaker 2: came forward with this information. Yeah, I think it is
46:04
Speaker 2: important to the JFK assassination story. But I'm not buying
46:09
Speaker 2: your book, Paul, That's that's a tall ask, right now. Yes,
46:13
Speaker 2: so I can get to the end and just go, oh, yeah,
46:15
Speaker 2: he found the bullet.
46:17
Speaker 3: Look at that. He found that bullet pristine, only one
46:19
Speaker 3: or two grains lost.
46:20
Speaker 2: Go figure. But yeah, yeah, I think we're on the
46:23
Speaker 2: same page as to the most compelling theory about JFK,
46:27
Speaker 2: like combination accident and assassination attempt. Everyone's right, I love it?
46:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely?
46:35
Speaker 2: And yeah, if anyone out there, have you seen the
46:37
Speaker 2: JFK Smoking Gun documentary.
46:39
Speaker 3: No, We've talked about it enough times you have. It's
46:42
Speaker 3: really good.
46:43
Speaker 2: I might even see it, go back and rewatch it
46:45
Speaker 2: after this.
46:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I need to see it.
46:48
Speaker 2: It's on I think it's still on Netflix. It's real good.
46:51
Speaker 2: I can't recommend it enough to watch it everybody. And
46:54
Speaker 2: I think that's our episode, right.
46:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's our episode.
47:00
Speaker 2: Unless you have anything to add about Paul Landis and
47:03
Speaker 2: the not magic bullet theory.
47:04
Speaker 3: No, I think you know. Good for him. I hope.
47:07
Speaker 3: I hope his book goes well.
47:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I at leastill be able to hit like,
47:11
Speaker 2: are there conspiracy theory conventions? God? That well a weird
47:16
Speaker 2: thing that they have to exist they must.
47:20
Speaker 3: I mean we went to the Alien Convention, which is
47:23
Speaker 3: basically conspiracy convention.
47:25
Speaker 2: I mean that was just science.
47:27
Speaker 3: That's not well, sure, that's right, that was all science,
47:30
Speaker 3: ye walk in like I feel like there was probably
47:32
Speaker 3: some people talking about JFK there too.
47:35
Speaker 2: Oh probably, Yeah, I'm sure if we dig hard enough,
47:37
Speaker 2: there's an alien JFK conspiracy. Maybe we'll cover that for
47:40
Speaker 2: a bonus episode sometime.
47:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, But until then we.
47:46
Speaker 2: Should get the fuck out of here. Olivia, thank you
47:49
Speaker 2: so much for doing this episode.
47:52
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
47:53
Speaker 2: What do we have to plug before we get out
47:56
Speaker 2: of here? I will just plug Adam Todd Brown dot
47:58
Speaker 2: substack dot com and there's the other stuff coming soon.
48:01
Speaker 2: How about you?
48:02
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm not really doing much right
48:05
Speaker 3: now other than working. You can find me on Twitter
48:08
Speaker 3: at high their hidar. I never, I'm sorry. You can
48:11
Speaker 3: find me on x dot com at hi there ian
48:14
Speaker 3: ex me at high their hidar. I don't know.
48:19
Speaker 2: Are they calling them xes xes?
48:21
Speaker 3: No, they're just calling them posts?
48:23
Speaker 2: Okay, that so stupid boring. They should call them post.
48:27
Speaker 2: Spell it with an X instead of.
48:28
Speaker 3: An oh, and you'd be like, how do you pronounce this?
48:31
Speaker 2: I don't know, like post, what's it look like? Idiot?
48:35
Speaker 2: All right, let's get the fuck out of here. Olivia
48:38
Speaker 2: say goodbye, bye, goodbye everybody. We love you.
48:46
Speaker 1: People you're trying to destroy. The plane is not to
49:01
Speaker 1: be destroy.