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We reflect on Pope Francis and look to the conclave · Beyond The Beacon

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Beyond the Beacon with Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson, New Jersey.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: Join us for conversations about our Catholic faith, and together let's strive to live a life of faith, hope, and love.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Jay Agnish.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: With me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Bishop Kevin, how are you?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good, Jay.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Happy Easter.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Happy Easter.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a while ago since we've been together.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh gap there.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: So happy today we have some special guests for a special episode.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: A lot has happened since we celebrated the resurrection and the next morning.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Our Holy Father Pope Francis returned home to the Father, as was said, his pest.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Somewhat surprisingly, looking back, maybe not so much, but I don't know.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: He seemed to be in good form Sunday, just the pictures seeing him in the St.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Peter's Square and waving to the people.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Others said they maybe didn't look so good.
• 1:00
  unknown: Right.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: But he was pushing himself.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not exactly following the doctor's story.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: But one of his one of his master's ceremonial.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_04: Two months of rest and one of his master of ceremonies I had spoken to last Wednesday, the Wednesday before he died, and said he seemed to be doing better.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: He seemed to be strong.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's the last gas.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'll introduce ourselves, but we'll introduce our guests, but Monsignor Gino Silva, the rector of our cathedral and uh vicar for special projects here in the diocese, who served in Rome, and he'll tell you had some personal experience working with the Holy Father Pope Francis and Monsignor Ray Kupke.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being with us.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Jake and do a little introduction as well.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: But Monsignor Kupke, as uh Father Paul Manning does so beautifully on the uh Coffee with Kupke uh podcast, uh, pastor of St.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Anthony's and Hawthorne Dawson, archivist and uh uh professor of church theology at uh church history at Satan Hall University and the seminary of the Immaculate Concession.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you both for being here.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry to jump to the first time.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, please, yeah.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Some great guests for an awesome topic, and I'm glad we are you wanted to do this special episode.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: And uh this will be real time, hopefully get it out today or tomorrow.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: So um we Monsignor Kupke had suggested maybe opening uh prayer with the prayer for the election of a new.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, why don't we pray it together?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So as uh from the uh on the USDCB website, but also the Roman Missal, right?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: That uh the church gives us special prayers for this time.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, from the missile.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um prayer for the election of a new pope.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll place ourselves in God's presence in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And as we pray for our church, and especially in these Easter days, asking the gifts of the Holy Spirit for all of us and especially the cardinals who will be meeting in conclave to elect a new Holy Father, let us pray together the prayer for the election of a new Pope.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: O God, eternal shepherd, who govern your flock with unfailing care.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Grant in your boundless fatherly love a pastor for your church, who will lead you by his holiness and to show us watchful care through our Lord Jesus Christ, your son, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Our Lady Seed of Wisdom, Mother of the Church, pray for us.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Saint Joseph, pray for pray for us, Saint Peter, pray for us, all holy men and women, pray for us in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, amen.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we didn't have a chance to get together sooner for the podcast to reflect on the life of um Pope Francis.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So before we look ahead and talk a little bit about the upcoming conclave, maybe we can take a moment to um look back.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: We had the Darston Mass.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Monsignor, for as always welcoming us at the cathedral last Friday, and I had an opportunity to share a little bit in the homily of my own um gratitude really for his life and ministry.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so maybe um Monsignor uh Gino, you can share some of your personal experience, and then Monsignor Kapke can give us some historical maybe perspective on Pope Francis.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Bishop, thanks for for asking me to come on.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's the last week has been very emotional too, because we were blessed in our office to have a personal relationship with Pope Francis.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_04: What had happened to the remote.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: What years again were you in Rome?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I was in Rome from 2012 to 2018.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_04: But right after in 2013, when he was elected Pope, um, he had a meeting with the president of our Pontificial Council, and Archbishop Fisakella came back saying, you guys are under the pontifical secret.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: The Pope wants to have a Jubilee of mercy, and we're running it.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_04: We're organizing it for him, but you can't tell anyone, right?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: We just come up with ideas and the Holy Father will put it all together.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: And this kind of changed our lives because not only did we plan, we organized and executed all these different events that the Holy Father had at the Vatican for the Jubilee of Mercy.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: So every couple of weekends there was a different three-day event with a different group of people.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: 2016, right?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: 15 to 16.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh but you started in 2013, right after his election, I guess, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: We started planning in private, and to be honest with you, I had nightmares that I had told my mother what we were doing, and I got fired for breaking that back to her in secret.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it what was amazing was the Holy Father was so hands-on with the planning of the Jubilee.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: It was he he was very clear with what he wanted, what he didn't want, and the whole the whole experience of the Jubilee was to give uh the world access through the church to a merciful God.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: And he would remind us that all the time.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: I can remember one event we had for, in fact, Archbishop Fisakella celebrated the Mass yesterday for the Jubilee for Disabled.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: So we had had it for the Jubilee of Mercy, and I was lifting a wheelchair and I sheared cartilage off my neck into my spine, and I ended up, was rushed home, had emergency surgery.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_04: Well, anyway, make a long story short, I get back there, and it was like three weeks later, and there's a big event going on, and the Holy Father motioned for me.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: He wanted to see my scar, and he said, I'm sorry you got disabled for the Jubilee for disabled.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I'm not disabled.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not, but that's how personal and sensitive, and how he remembers and cares about the individual with all the millions of pressures that he has on him.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll give you one other little.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_04: So uh we had another event for catechesis for children with disabilities.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: And so they were all there.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: There was about 500 that were gonna hear the conference in the Belvedere.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um the Clementine Hall.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, it was only 30 people that were supposed to shake his hands, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_04: And how do we pick 30 people out of 500 and hurt the others?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: So Archbishop Goshwine was there, and I said, I don't know what to do.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_04: He said, Well, why don't you ask the Holy Father?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe he can shake everybody's hand.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: So I asked him.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: He spent another hour and a half taking the time.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_04: Every person was in that room.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: Shook his hand.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_04: The only thing he said to me was, don't have them give me any gifts, just a shaking of the head.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but no matter how poorly he felt, his back always bothered him.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: I I mean remember when people in wheelchairs would grab him down and you knew he was in excruciating pain, he never wanted you to stop them from doing that.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I think he was energized by people.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah, exactly.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: An extrovert.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think well he would be uh before an event, say in the Paul the Six Hall, he would be in the hallway behind.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: There would be 5,000 people in the hall, and he would look very down and tired and for like the Jubilee for novices and seminarians.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_04: All of a sudden he got out there and the place goes and he comes alive.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_04: It was like they gave him the energy that he needed to engage with them, which was absolutely beautiful.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: What characteristics uh of Pope Francis come to mind for you?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: You uh may maybe mercy, uh that's what I'm saying.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: Of course, yeah, it was it was without a doubt mercy.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: But what and I was talking to his Monsignor Christoph, who worked with us on the Jubilee and is now the Under Secretary for Divine Worship and is one of his MCs, says all the time one of the things that the world doesn't know about Pope Francis is his sense of humor.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: His absolute incredible sense of humor.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um He spends a chapter on his autobi in his autobiography talking about the value of humor.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh um for those who might be trying to get some insight into Pope Francis looking back, as Monsignor Kopke will also share with us, his autobiography is really um so beautiful.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he um he also had, I think, very much the heart of a parish priest, you know, in um uh in his service to the uh to his diocese um as uh coming as a Jesuit uh doing a lot of parish work after some seminary work, uh, and then as the Archbishop of Um of Buenos Aires, um he really, I think, had the heart of a parish priest in so many ways.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: And he wasn't afraid to to even laugh at himself.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like one time at one of the general audiences, a little boy walks up on stage and sits in his chair.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, instead of getting all, he just let the little kid there, laughed.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was and then everybody else laughs.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I you know, I think that's Jay, to answer your question, I think that's uh part of his personality.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: But the other one was it was it was always joy, it was always humor.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: But uh there was a clarity of the vision.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: He knew what he wanted.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_04: And what he didn't want.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly, and was very clear.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: He he was he would tell you um and uh Archbishop Isachela, who ran the Jubilee, was always very careful of coming back from the meetings with the Holy Father saying this is what he wanted, this is what he didn't want, let's present him something different that he can choose.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um because for him it was very important.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: And and Archbishop Fizakela talked about this that um and gave a beautiful presentation.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think I had sent it to you, Bishop, that um Pope Francis is like Pope Gregory the Great.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_04: He said that he at times he appeared not to be concerned about you know uh doctrinal doctrinal issues in the pulpit, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_04: He was concerned with a conversion of life, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: A conversion of a soul.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_04: And that was and and then po you know Archbishop Fisakella talks that with Pope Francis, it's a relationship between love and faith.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: If someone knows their love, they're open to faith.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: And once they have faith, it's what sustains love.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what his papacy he was trying in everything to extend through the church.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Monsignor, maybe some personal reflections, your own uh uh observations, and uh and then maybe a little historical perfect perspective on where he kind of fits in.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he doesn't fit in.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: He breaks the mold.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was very willing to think outside the box, and that can be too trite a phrase sometimes, but I think in terms of church work, you know, he was unique in that respect, uh, willing to push the whole system in a slightly different direction, or have we ever looked at this or thought about it this way?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um certainly the heart of a pastor more than anything.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um back when I was a new priest, uh we used to talk about, you know, the the individual solution to impossible moral issues, you know.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: The uh and uh he reminded me so much of that because he would come up with an individual solution that would leave people.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Marrying a couple on a on a plane.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: Or like his first Christmas as Pope when we're in everyone who works at the Vatican has uh goes to the Paul VI Hall for a message from the Holy Father, and he told us our 15 ailments.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, right, what was wrong with us?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember I my Italian wasn't that great the first year, and I'm leaning over at Don Marco Sotsi, I said, Is he really saying this?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, you're right.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: He he was trying to push the church to to change uh certain areas that he felt needed to be changed.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: He was not he was not afraid to leave something behind and look in a different direction.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, historically he's going to be unique, but part of that is due to his predecessor, I think, you know.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um the conventional wisdom is that he came in second in the 2013 conclave, you know.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: After Pope Benedict, yes.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the the second runner-up, that's as far as you go, you know, because by the next time it you're dead or you're you've aged out, you know, you never get a second chance if you come in second.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: But with Benedict resigning, all of a sudden that opened up a slot that would not have ordinarily been open.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so coming back, those that had been impressed with him the first time around, you know, uh they say that he gave like a five-minute talk at the conclave of 2013, you know, in these meetings, and that it's so impressed.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the cards, where the church needs to be, where it needs to go.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Pre-conclave meetings.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Is there a formal name for these?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or that's what's happening now, right?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's where you get to know each other and see what what what what actually do you think?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh um you know, uh somebody said to me uh about the coverage um, as we'll get to talk about the conclave in a moment, but um that not to forget that it it's um it's not so much political, yes, that's part of it, and uh the the choosing direction, but they're also uh men of prayer asking the help of the Holy Spirit, right?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we we trust that the Holy Spirit's involved in this process.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Monsignor, as you mentioned um Pope Benedict resigning, um, you know, how the Holy Spirit was moving through him to that time, and if and and that led us to be able to have Pope Francis, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh it struck me that, and you know, it's so beautiful that uh the choice of the name Francis, uh, him, the cardinal next to him saying, uh, don't forget the poor, and uh and how much a part of that was was a part of his whole life and ministry.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: But in that moment, he said the name Francis came to him, and that it took that long for someone to choose the name Francis.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: I guess there's some pressure there, but he's he seemed to have no issues in terms of uh the meaning of that name, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: The the saint of the poor, poor.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, historically he'll always be unique.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's the first of this, the first of that, the first Jesuit, the first, you know.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: The Americas.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a lot of firsts on his under his uh belt there.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: But beyond that, you know, beyond the obvious firsts, there, there is a a unique character and and and an approach which I suspect may be very Latin American.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Salem, the yeah, the is this uh Latin American Bishop's Conference, I think.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: They were doing synodality kind of a lot long time before.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um that makes me comparison with John the 23rd.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Are there some similarities?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Surprise, yes.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um John was not quite as surprised as people think he was when he became Pope.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he had he had kind of looked at the College of Cardinals, which was very small, you know, the only 50 voters in that conclave.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh many of them, this was before the 80 rule.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, some of them were over 90 things.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh John kind of handicapped the crowd and said, Oh my god, it's gonna be me.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um but similarity in the sense of coming, never having lost touch with your rural background, you know, and taking the church in the house.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: John maintained a house in his native village where he would go back on vacation, you know, every year, and kept in touch with his sisters and brothers, you know, he and and his assignments in the diplomatic corps were in the backwaters of you know Turkey, Bulgaria, Greece.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: These were not the prime postings.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: So he knew how it was to live in obscurity and poverty, and um, you know, there yeah, there's a lot of they both suffered in their own way in their careers, and then suddenly got a boost.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: And you're talking about the Holy Spirit.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, the fact that we celebrate Saint Catherine of Siena this week.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, right, right.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: And she was the one that really reminded the church that whoever is elected Pope is the Pope.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: And she, you know, uh she reminds me of that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: Because even it was interesting, we we really didn't know Pope Francis when he was elected.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody knew Joseph Ratzinger, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think it's really important too that we trust in the Holy Spirit and we trust in the words and the the advice of Saint Catherine of Siena that when we support the Pope, we're supporting Christ.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I think that's important for unity.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have another question or should we move on to the why don't we move along?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so a week from today, right, is gonna be the start of the the conclave of the voting.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um you said uh earlier you recall uh being there when the smoke came up for Pope Francis.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: What do you remember about the uh from the well, I guess it was a little bit different in the resignation of sir of of Pope uh Benedict.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: There was a little more time to kind of know that the that because he took about two months, right, from announcing to the end date um uh and and whatever, then then the day came and they they went into the conclave, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um w what what do you remember about that time?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Being in Rome, maybe, especially.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so working at the Holy See when Pope Benedict resigned was uh a really turbulent time.
• 19:56
  unknown: All right.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um a lot of people that worked there and at the Vatican just couldn't believe it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: People were taking sides, arguments.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Basically they said he can't do that.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_04: He can't do that.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: I get the impression he really kept it to himself until he announced it to the world, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: Supposedly he shared it with four.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you watch his announcement, you can tell which cardinals understand Latin and which ones don't, because it was some of them are listening to this and they're getting agitated, and the others are wondering why are they getting agitated because I Right.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so it was uh a very tumultuous time at the Holy See, and then um during the conclave, we all had to keep going.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: When they said, Okay, the smoke's gonna come up, you guys got to go out.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it was pouring rain, and when they said the name Rebollo, we're like, what did he say?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_04: And the gentleman, the the cardinal that they had say, he didn't speak too clearly.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: It was pouring rain, we're like, say it again.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, right, yes, I remember that, right?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: But we couldn't hear what he said.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: And did I hear that?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Georgium Marriott.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Georgium Marriott.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: So we're like um And everybody then's going on their phone saying, What did he say?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Martini, did I hear someone say that you may have uh said it was going to be Bergoglio before it was announced?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm I'm we had a We had a presentation up at Paul Inside the Walls prior to the conclave, and they were asking me questions, and I somebody said, you know, who would you handicap?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I I wouldn't count out, uh mainly because he was the second runner-up, and he's still in the conclave this time around.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and of course, hardly anybody had heard this name before.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: He was, yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: In Madison, New Jersey, Bergoglio was not a common name.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think even in the media coverage at that time, Jay, if you remember back that uh um uh there were a lot of names, but very few were mentioning Bergoglio, right?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, very few.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um wasn't an insider.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: He was definitely not an insider.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think with Ben No, he hated Rome.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: Bureaucratic.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: He avoided it at all.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: We had ailments.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, with Benedict, toward the end of Benedict, things had just hit a wall in a sense, in in many ways.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people were looking for something to head in a different direction.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think it was.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I think in in light of that, um I think people underestimate how gentle and humble Pope Benedict was.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: I mean he the stories, I mean, the the way he and there were certain things that required a leader to do that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if Pope Benedict had the heart.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: He was just the most gentle.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I just think at this point he just those things that were.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he was an academic, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was the life of the mind was um uh and not the greatest help by the uh by the end of it.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like when he visited Mexico, his doctors would not let him go to Mexico City because of the because of the uh altitude.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well Dinah asks you who you who you think is gonna get elected, but are we are we there yet?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: Where where do we want to go now, Bishop?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh um uh do you have uh there's a little guy in Serbia.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't know.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, the the traditional wisdom is that first they try and figure out what the church needs.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they look around and say, who we got that can do that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't realize it would be as as long as it is that there they're they're gonna be in meetings.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Up to seven or eight.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Meetings.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about the meetings, you know.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like the historians of Vatican II say that the most important part of the council took place at the coffee bars.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, right.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's where people met each other, got to know each other, you know, discovered that somebody else in the world thought the same thing they did.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what's taking place now.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: And uh And the Cardinals have their phones still, right?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: Except when they go the Sistine Chapel.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I I'm sure there are few people, you know, the traditional kingmakers who are trying to say we should go this way, but then there are little conversations saying, well, maybe we should go that way.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I think this is um the certainly the most diverse or um the right uh the the uh the number of Europeans, the percentage of cardinals is way down.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Even from the last time.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think 50 of the 134 are European.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the numbers from Africa and Asia, I think, are you thinking?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: 24 Asians.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the fewest Italians.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 16 Italians.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it's a it's a whole different ball of wax.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: But just, you know, the synods has changed the entire makeup because they they come together more often.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: They actually might know each other before they get there, some of them.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, there's a famous story about the 63 conclave uh between Cardinal Cushing of Boston and the Cardinal of Montevideo in Uruguay.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there was some little thing that the the one from Montevideo, Cardinal Barbieri, was hard of hearing, and he didn't understand something, and he's trying to get Cushing to explain it to him.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Cushing could not speak any Spanish, and the other guy couldn't speak any English, you know.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Today, both of their successors would be easily able to do that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Communication has changed, but also the number of times that they actually physically come together and meet each other.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not it's a different layout than it has been in the middle.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: So but they they wouldn't have translators then when they're in locked up in the conclave, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: So is that is that a problem for communication?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like how would someone who just doesn't speak a language that someone else It's probably nobody that doesn't speak English?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's mostly Italian, so and also amongst themselves they could probably find translators as well, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_04: But I'll give you an example, Jay.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: So for the Dicastry for Evangelization, we had the we had the members meeting last year, and I think there are eight cardinals around the table.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um everyone speaks Italian.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: For some, it's it's I was I mean it was uh very interesting.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I wonder wonder if some of those newer cardinals from other parts of the world would would speak Italian.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I would think uh if you studied in the Right, oh right.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then if they don't speak Italian, the chances that they speak do speak English, right?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, right, so they'll find a comedy on that.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they speak about Cardinal Tobin of Newark, that his connection to Francis is the fact that Tobin as the head of the Redemptrus got to one of these synods late and the all the English speaking groups were filled, but he could speak Spanish.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So they threw him in a Spanish and he wound up next to Bergoglio at the table.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but if you go back, say 20, 30 years, 40 years, none of the American bishops were that good in Spanish that they would have been comfortable sitting.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Huh.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's all that's all changed, and and uh it has changed the mix.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well you mentioned Cardinal Tobin.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: So want to know odds that Cardinal Tobin becomes the Pope or odds that maybe an American becomes a Pope.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't we get that out of the way for you?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying anything.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think the only one, the only American I think, you know, from my limited perspective is uh that has a shot is Cardinal Prevost.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Prevost, the Chicago uh Augustinian who's head of the Dicaster for Bishops.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean he's got they don't even think of him as American sometimes.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Unless he's spent half of his career in Peru.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, he has a different angle.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Most I mean, if you were to ask most Americans, they would not even know who we were talking about.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's not on the American radar, but he might be on the international radar.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well you heard it here first.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the just listening, three names that I've heard um uh Cardinal Parolin, who's been the Secretary of State, um uh Cardinal Pizzabala, who is the Patriarch of Jerusalem, right?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um and uh Cecile is here with us.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh uh there's a Cardinal from the Philippines, uh uh Cardinal Tagle, right, who many people are saying could it could, but uh uh he's fairly young, and I think Pizzabala is Pizzabala is only 59.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: So can we talk in broader terms like where does the church need to go from here?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, who do we need right now?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Jay and I have been talking about and listening to this Inside the Vatican podcast, which uh they're they're also uh a sister podcast of uh Jesuitical, and uh um they're putting out a podcast each day.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: For those who listen to podcasts, uh their deep dive on the preparation for the conclave, I think, is very good.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: I would recommend maybe put it in the show notes.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um yesterday their conversation was uh the talk about a unity candidate and also some reflecting on um uh uh the the qu I think Cardinal Dolan made a comment about um trying to combine he was uh I think on one of the morning talk shows, he said we should find somebody with the energy of John Paul II, with the intellect of Pope Benedict and the pastoral care of uh without a doubt.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I think Cardinal Dolan is right on.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: I I do think, you know, Jay to answer your point, I think the Holy Spirit has blessed the church.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: Our previous three popes have been exactly what the church and the world needed at that time, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: We needed the the strength and the youth and the even the drama of Pope John Paul II.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: We needed the theological brilliance of Pope Benedict, and we needed the charisma and the and and the mercy and the preferential option for the poor and Pope Francis.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: Now moving forward, we need someone who can bring all those three together.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: Because with that comes all the time.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_04: No pressure, Holy Spirit.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: No pressure, but no, we we because go to central casting and finding.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, because we just we we have to ut unum sent that all may be one, right?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: And so somebody that could weave those traits together, I think, because right now we're we're a fragmented church in a lot of ways.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh at the same time celebrating the 17th hundredth, which there's no word for, right?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Monsignor Company anniversary of the Council of Nicaea, we've had Monsignor has helped us with uh some round tables for Christian unity.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh um uh I um the Pope Francis was there was even talk recently before his passing of Woody get to, I think it's in May, there's uh an event in Nicaea, right?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um but as you say, Monsignor Gino, uh that um unifying the church, but uh with Easter falling on uh the same Sunday for all the calendars this year, which so rarely does, um, you know, could the New Holy Father not only unify the church but do something in the outreach to our Christian brothers and sisters, right?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've read a couple of comments though about the term unity.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently this is the hot buzzword over there right now, and it's a very appealing one because of the fragmentation.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there are some people that are afraid that what they really mean by unity is we should go back.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: Go back to how far back?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_04: What do you mean by unity?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: What do you mean?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: That that it's a uh a retroaggressive approach that it that that people are talking talking unity because it's so appealing to everybody.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: But what they really mean is we must eliminate some of what we've done and some might describe as Pope Francis's lack of clarity, maybe from some in terms of his his approach.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh uh I hear what you're saying, Monsignor Kapke uh um uh let's hope unity is unity.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what else should we be on the little lookout for uh in the upcoming days?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um I guess there it'll be hard it'll be they're gonna be looking for news between now and Wednesday, but there's still five days, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_04: And for for some of my friends over in Room that still work there, they're all curious as is the uh you know the group of American cardinals gonna vote as a block.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: That's a very interesting like are are they are they one of the And that would nobody will really know, right?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's usually the fact, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't someone say Burke and Tobin in the same block?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: Is Cardinal Burke less than yes?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, he's young.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: He's one of the ten.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ten.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: Is there ten Americans?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: Ten Americans.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: He's young, he just looks mature.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the two of them that are retired, uh Wilton Gregory and DeNardo.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're still voting.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: But not Cardinal O'Malley.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Not O'Malley just.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: There was uh on the inside of the Vatican, there was um, I forget what country now, uh me um there's one country where they have a it's uh somewhere in Africa, I think, where, as in other countries uh when um birth records are not kept as closely as we keep them here, and uh you might even in Ireland this happened in Latin America and what you might be born on one day, but you are registered on another day.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: But whatever country this is, there's a lot of people that are not not sure when their birthday are, and the government then assigns them December 31st of that year.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: The Cardinal from Kenya, I think is this Cardinal celebrated his eighth birthday and apparently had a party in January when he's he's celebrated January 25th for the last 80 or so yeah.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cardinal from Nairobi.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: But apparently he's been working towards, even since like late last year, um, been working with the whatever process they have to get his birthday moved to the the earlier so that he to uh right to um to December 31st, which would mean he wouldn't be turning 80 until the end of the year instead of having turning.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: John John and Jewey, the Archbishop of Nairobi.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um The poor Indian cardinal turned 80 on Holy Saturday.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's just missed it.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is it by the date of the Holy Father's death or the date of the conclave?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you're eighty when the conclave opens.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you turn eighty in the conclave, you stay.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's the day it opens.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um Right.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: So nobody has a birthday of May 6th or something like that.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, the next one is a little ways away.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: So um uh uh there's there's a lot of there's over is there a hundred cardinals that are over eighty, I think, right?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was saying I think it's eighty-five or something that are over eighty.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the number of voters looks like it's gonna be around two thirty-two, two thirty-four.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, excuse me.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, one thing.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And of that number, many, many of them were appointed cardinals by Pope Francis, right?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: Most of them.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: Most of them.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Around three quarters, would you say?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Three quarters?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:55
  unknown: Yeah.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: Which doesn't necessarily port that.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are four in this conclave for whom this is the third conclave.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Only four.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that would put them back to JP2.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: JP2, right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um Well, um, I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh um we have certainly a lot to pray for in these days.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh your prospective, personal, historical uh uh um sharing with our viewers and listeners, Monsignor Gino and Monsignor Ray.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, thanks very much for the next slide.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having us.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, thanks.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: Anything else top of mind, Bishop?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um we got a lot of uh we're still in the Jubilee year, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: So uh and Monsignor, we have the Blue Mass.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: The Jubilee for Law Enforcement Saturday.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the seminary is just about finishing up, right?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um just about next week.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um then we start the round of ordinations.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's right, that's right.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, right.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: When seminary faculty goes to many dioceses and other places, right?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for um well, um we might be calling you back to see uh get your thoughts on uh the new Pope.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll we'll see who the Holy Spirit sends to us, but but but thank you so much and God bless you in your ministry.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, thank you both.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Bishop.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you all for joining us.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Please subscribe, comment, and leave a positive rating.
• 37:15
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• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Email questions and podcast topic ideas for the bishop to beyond at patterson diocese.org.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: Discover our other podcasts, Coffee with Kupke and the Paul Street Journal.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: See you next time.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everybody.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: God bless you.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.