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Worship in an Age of Anxiety with J. Michael Jordan · Future Christian

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>> Martha: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
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source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
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podcast, we talk to pastors,
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authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
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practical wisdom to help you and your community of
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faith walk boldly into the future.
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Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a
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passionate member of your faith community, this podcast
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is designed to challenge, inspire, and
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equip you with the tools you need for impactful
0:38
ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for
0:41
this episode.
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Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Junior is in conversation with the
0:49
Reverend Doctor Michael Jordan. Michael
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is professor of theology at Houghton University.
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He previously served as pastor of
0:58
Exton Community Baptist Church and
1:01
as, uh, dean at the chapel of Houghton before
1:04
moving over to teach full time this fall. Over
1:07
the summer, he is the staff chaplain at the christian
1:09
camp camp of the woods. Mike's wife
1:12
Jill, is a mathematician who also teaches at
1:15
Houghton. They live just off campus and
1:18
together are raising their five children. In his
1:21
spare time, Mike enjoys singing, crossword
1:24
puzzles, and distance running and is
1:26
a rabid fan of Philadelphia professional
1:29
and college sports. A
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reminder before we start today's conversation, please
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1:59
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I am Loren Richmond,
2:02
junior, and I'm pleased to be joined today by
2:05
the Reverend doctor Michael Jordan. So thank you so much for
2:08
being here. Welcome to the show.
2:10
>> J. Michael Jordan: Thanks. Glad to be here.
2:11
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation. Before we
2:14
jump into our main point of conversation, share, just if you
2:17
would, anything else about yourself than kind of your
2:20
story, your faith background, all that.
2:22
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah. So, um, for me, maybe the big
2:25
thing to say is I've always been not sure
2:28
if I am called to be a pastor
2:31
or a professor. Um, that's ever since I was a little
2:34
kid, a pastor, maybe I would have said pastor or teacher as a little
2:37
kid, um, but that is something I've never
2:40
quite solved. I've always kind of lived at the intersection,
2:43
uh, of those kind of worlds. And, uh, my grandparents
2:46
were college professors, so that was kind of something I always kind
2:49
of aspired to in some ways. Um, but for me,
2:52
I always hope that my, um, academic stuff is always
2:55
tilting pastoral and that my pastoral work is always kind of tilting
2:58
academic. So, yeah, as far as faith
3:00
journey, I mean, I grew up, um, as an American
3:03
Baptist. So I'm sure that some of your listeners may be familiar with the
3:06
ABC. It's quite a very
3:09
congregational denomination. And um, I
3:12
grew up in a pretty evangelical congregation
3:15
in New Jersey and New Jersey is a pretty diverse part of the
3:17
ABC. And j was um,
3:21
comfortable in that tradition still, uh, am in many ways. But
3:23
um, I went to
3:26
Houghton, the college where I work now, ah, as an
3:29
undergrad in the nineties. And then
3:31
uh, began to. I was thinking at that point I might be a
3:34
history teacher, uh, but then was really drawn
3:37
to um, theology and Bible kinds of
3:40
classes at the undergrad level. So decided to go to seminary
3:43
instead. Was ordained as an American Baptist,
3:46
um, and then pursued a PhD in liturgical
3:48
studies, um, which for me was very
3:51
much kind of related to,
3:53
um. I had the sense
3:57
when I was um, a young pastor, like I was 24,
4:00
25, and I felt like I was just kind of like getting by on charm
4:03
a lot. Uh, you know, like I didn't really know, especially
4:06
when it came to worship, you know, or um, you know, I was like kind
4:09
of googling what to do for a funeral, for a wedding, those kind
4:11
of things. And I thought I got to learn a little more about this. So
4:14
my PhDs in liturgical studies and
4:17
that turned my world upside down a little bit. It gave me a great
4:20
appreciation for the kind of historic pattern of worship.
4:23
It also made me kind of yearn for something a little more
4:26
connectional, which is why I joined the wesleyan
4:28
church, um, which I've always, you know, if you, if your listeners or
4:31
you know, the ABC, it's very broad. So it's not
4:34
narrowly reformed or whatever. So I always kind of tilted. Wesleyan,
4:36
Arminian, uh, joined the wesleyan church and became
4:39
ordained, uh, before, uh, serving here at
4:42
Houghton. Uh, so I've been a wesleyan pastor for about 15
4:45
years, 15, uh, years now. So that's
4:48
a little bit of my journey, my story.
4:51
Um, for me,
4:53
uh, the spiritual life recently has been
4:56
a real, um, it's been a real
4:59
area of growth, I think in those last few years.
5:01
Um, I don't know if your listeners
5:04
will appreciate this or not. I think it just kind of depends on
5:07
where they're from. But I think sometimes the language of
5:10
spiritual discipline can be really difficult.
5:13
Um, for someone who grew up in,
5:16
ah, that kind of pastor professor space that I did,
5:19
um, it was a way of kind of like sometimes I would, I
5:22
would. I would treat it as kind of like achievement language. Like
5:25
if you do this, if you achieve this, then you will be a different kind
5:28
of person. And so I've been kind of peeling
5:31
that back a little bit in the last few years and thinking a
5:34
little more about dispositions rather than disciplines. Like what
5:36
kind of person am I becoming. Um.
5:39
And uh. Beginning to be kind of in touch with the
5:42
way that I'm feeling at any given time and becoming more
5:45
curious about myself. I think about how I got there
5:48
and um, when I'm not proud or happy with a feeling,
5:50
beginning to ask why and kind of look at myself,
5:53
um, with the eyes of Jesus as much as I can.
5:56
Um, really key for me has been connection
5:59
with some monastic communities and
6:02
uh, with fixed hour prayer. Those have been really
6:05
key for me recently in kind of unpacking,
6:08
um, this way of looking at myself that is piercing and
6:11
rigorous, but not hopeless
6:14
and high achieving, if that makes sense.
6:17
That's a little bit of where I've been the last few years.
6:19
>> Loren: Yeah, great. And kind of a great tease about, I think,
6:22
some themes in your book.
6:24
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, for sure. For sure. If I'm accurate, it came from
6:27
somewhere. Yeah.
6:28
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. M. You know, I like to joke that I'm a
6:31
church nerd, but I think a PhD in liturgical studies
6:34
is pretty high in the church nerdiness.
6:37
>> J. Michael Jordan: So, yeah, I mean it was, it was pretty
6:39
daunting. You know, the program, it was at Drew University, which
6:42
was united Methodist College. Um, but most of
6:45
the people there were high churchers and uh, there was another Baptist
6:48
in the program with me and we, we felt like we were at Hogwarts and
6:51
we were just learning all this new lingo all the time. It
6:54
was great, it was really fun, but it was a little. It was a little
6:57
nerdy. Uh, for sure.
6:58
>> Loren: Yeah. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but the American Baptist tradition, I
7:01
mean there's some low church and high church there, right?
7:04
>> J. Michael Jordan: Some, sure. But the low gets, um. The
7:07
low is not as low as some Baptists and the high is certainly
7:10
not as high as the Roman Catholic
7:13
episcopal. So yeah, the church, I won't bore you with it, but
7:16
I mean the congregation I grew up in had a very
7:18
high church building for a Baptist and that
7:21
was in part because of the pastor who was there when they
7:24
built, was a very kind of person of
7:26
repute. People knew him and so, so the church kind of was. Looked
7:29
stately and ornate to uh, kind of honor him, I
7:32
think. Um, but you know, it's certainly
7:35
not a tradition that's heavily liturgical or very
7:37
high in any meaningful sense to my orthodox or
7:40
catholic friends. So.
7:42
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, I want to nerd out some more
7:45
on American Baptist and liturgical practices, but we'll move
7:48
on.
7:48
>> J. Michael Jordan: That's right.
7:50
>> Loren: So Michael is the author of the book worship
7:53
in an age of anxiety, how churches can create
7:56
space for healing. And I really didn't know what to
7:59
expect when I. When I got a copy of this book, but I
8:02
really resonated with a lot
8:04
of what was in there. So I
8:07
think first, kind of just talk about what prompted you to write the
8:10
book.
8:12
>> J. Michael Jordan: So, um, several things. I mean, one is
8:15
I've always had kind of like a ministry of writing that I've been
8:18
interested in. You, uh, know, pastors write a ton,
8:21
and so I was always writing, um, but
8:24
I. I also m. Maybe in part.
8:27
So I've worked for eleven years as the dean of the chapel here at
8:30
Houghton, so planning our chapel programming. Um, now
8:33
I'm moving full time to the classroom. But those eleven
8:35
years made me very,
8:37
um, skittish about
8:40
the author speaker types, you know what I mean? Like the
8:43
people on the speaking circuit. And so I never really wanted to be
8:46
that. I kind of have, like Eugene Peterson
8:49
bent towards local ministry. I want to be accountable to the
8:51
people I can see. I don't want to be tilting at influence.
8:55
Um, but I've, you know, I've had. I've had people who have said,
8:58
you should keep writing, you should think about it. And one of them,
9:00
um, my friend Melanie Ross had been encouraging me particularly. She's a
9:03
liturgical scholar who I deeply admire. And, uh, we had
9:06
batted around some ideas, um, for what a book
9:09
could look like about some different topics. But the topic of anxiety
9:12
really rose for me, um, because of that
9:15
pastoral work with young people. So
9:18
I started in my role when I was 34, as dean
9:21
of the chapel. Quickly, um, learned
9:24
that young people were just talking about their mental health
9:27
in ways that were just not at all accessible to
9:30
me when I was that age. Um, things I just didn't, you know,
9:33
I mean, they would talk about triggers, they would talk about medications they were
9:35
on, um, and they very. They were so comfortable with
9:38
the language. Um,
9:41
and honestly, it gave me a little bit of pause
9:44
because, um, I just had
9:47
two minds about it. One. One I deeply
9:50
admired.
9:50
>> Loren: I.
9:51
>> J. Michael Jordan: That they were so comfortable talking about
9:54
their inner reality. Like, I never would have let that
9:57
bubble to the surface when I was 18 or 19. I never would have said
10:00
I'm anxious or I'm depressed. Um, but at the same time,
10:02
I could tell that they were having trouble integrating it with their faith
10:05
life. They were really sincere christians. I mean,
10:08
most Houghton students are christian. Not all um,
10:11
but they have this
10:14
understanding of the gospel that's really precious to
10:17
them, and they really believe that, in a sense, the
10:20
gospel explains everything. But then, on the other
10:23
hand, they have this mental health world that
10:25
they sort of are like, uh, that's something I want to handle
10:28
in more of a clinical kind of way. Um, because
10:31
they sort of know that in the past it's been really reductionist when
10:34
we've tried to synthesize faith and mental
10:37
health. And, uh, I was like, we've got to do a
10:40
little better. You know what I mean? Like, there's got to be a, uh, new
10:43
stage of that conversation between the kind of world of
10:46
faith and mental health. And because I'm a liturgical scholar, I naturally thought about
10:49
it through the lens of worship. I wanted to think through, like,
10:52
okay, what is this?
10:55
Like, this kind of project of the kind
10:58
of big Nandanam worship world, whatever it
11:01
is that I'm describing there? You know what I mean? Um,
11:04
what does that do to a person that's anxious
11:07
for a person that's anxious? And, um, the topic
11:10
just seemed to kind of snowball from there. Like, we began to think of a way
11:13
to put this together into a book, and so that's kind of where it came
11:16
from.
11:17
>> Loren: Yeah. So as I was thinking about how
11:20
to. How to ask questions here, I was
11:23
thinking, I got on this, like, CCM kick
11:26
a couple years ago, like, just listening to some, like, late nineties
11:29
classic CCM Christian contemporary
11:32
music for those unfamiliar, you know. So listen to
11:35
some of my favorites, audio
11:37
adrenaline, DC talk. Uh,
11:41
and then, like, my all time, all time favorite CC
11:43
member was Michael Lou Smithe.
11:45
>> J. Michael Jordan: Sure.
11:46
>> Loren: And I was thinking
11:48
about his. I think it was like, his 95 96
11:51
album. There was a song on there called Missing Person. I don't know
11:54
if you remember the album or the song.
11:56
>> J. Michael Jordan: I remember the title. I don't remember the song.
11:58
>> Loren: But the album, or, excuse me, the language of the song
12:01
was something like, you know, there used to be this
12:04
boy who had the faith to move a mountain, and I've been searching
12:07
for that missing person, for that feeling
12:09
again. Uh, and I was really, like,
12:12
listening to that while I was reading your book. And to me, that really
12:15
describes really well, I think, the problem
12:18
that you're trying to talk through in this
12:20
book, that our faith, at least especially
12:23
in a lot of the circles you're in,
12:27
can be equated with our feelings.
12:29
Like, I'm also thinking, like, again, I'm kind of a
12:32
child, especially my faith, of, like, the light, late nineties.
12:35
So in my neck of the woods acquire. The
12:38
fire was really big. So it was just like, you know, if
12:41
you're. If you're. If you're not, like, on fire for
12:44
God, then you need to get
12:47
on fire for God. There's no in between. There's no.
12:49
The whole lukewarm, hot or cold,
12:53
it wasn't just lukewarm is unacceptable. It's cold wasn't
12:56
acceptable. So talk about that.
12:59
Feelings being equated for faith
13:01
challenge.
13:03
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, thanks for saying that. So I'm not exactly sure how old you are. I'm
13:06
46. Um, and so I remember where I was when the
13:09
Jesus freak album came out, and everybody
13:12
talked about how the COVID and the album art looked like
13:15
Pearl jam. You know, it was like, it's derivative. You know, all that, uh,
13:19
it was an interesting time to
13:21
walk a certain journey. Um, and
13:24
that idea of,
13:27
um, your experience with God is something
13:29
that's primarily felt
13:32
part of the place this book came from, for me personally,
13:35
was a place of. I never quite
13:38
got there. I never quite got that,
13:41
you know? And, um, like, I worshiped in a very
13:43
traditional kind of church growing up. When I went to college in
13:46
95, I started being involved with a few praise and
13:49
worship groups, and for maybe a year,
13:52
that gave me a sense of, like, superiority. I was kind of in
13:55
touch with a kind of higher way to connect with
13:58
God than I knew back home, or a more authentic way. But it
14:01
pretty soon became really dispiriting to me because I realized,
14:03
like, a. I don't want to let
14:06
go. Like, I don't want to let go of all my family and
14:09
friends back home who don't worship this. Like, I can't quite imagine
14:12
they're really sub christian, you know? And,
14:15
um, I don't know quite what to do with the fact that I can't
14:18
quite access these highs that other people seem to be
14:21
feeling. And, um. So that's part of it, right?
14:24
Is like, that's really deep in me, is that. That's
14:27
been burning there for 25 years, right? It's been sitting there
14:30
just wanting, uh, to find some
14:32
expression. Um. I think it took on special
14:35
urgency for me when I would talk with some of these young
14:38
people who would come into my office, though, and some of them would have been
14:41
involved with worship in some way, or at least reliably
14:43
feeling like, this
14:46
suits me. Like, this way of doing worship has always worked,
14:49
and now, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I don't
14:52
feel it. And they would look at me crestfallen, like
14:55
God himself was no longer to
14:58
them, you know, and I just have such compassion about
15:01
that. Um, it's, uh. Just. It's not acceptable to
15:04
me that that's something that we impress on people.
15:07
Um, now, clearly, I mean, again, I don't know how much kind of the
15:10
wesleyan tradition you're familiar with. I mean, we
15:13
are a tradition that talks about heart religion
15:16
a lot. I mean, we have the idea of the strangely warmed heart that
15:19
means something to us. Um, but whatever the strangely
15:22
warmed heart is, it's not. It's not quite acquire the fire. Right? Like,
15:25
I mean, it's something a little different, um, that
15:28
Wesley was feeling. And so I, you know, I've been really interested
15:30
in the kind of emotions and worship thing on that
15:33
personal level for a while. Um, you
15:36
know, Charles Finney, who I talk about in the book, who's a preacher, he was
15:39
the subject of my dissertation, and I was also fascinated by the way that he
15:42
kind of looked at, uh, this kind of process of, like,
15:45
emotions working with faith. And I'm just like, wow,
15:48
this. This thing that I'm feeling and this
15:51
tension that I'm feeling is something that's kind of
15:53
quintessentially american. Been going on here a long time,
15:56
particularly. And, um, I'm
15:59
not alone all of a sudden, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That
16:02
idea of our feelings can't be
16:05
everything. They're something, but they're not everything. That's
16:08
a really important thing for me personally and academically.
16:12
>> Loren: Yeah. So I'm glad you brought up Finney, because this is one of the most interesting
16:15
parts of the book for me. And
16:17
interestingly enough, like, you have a section on
16:20
preaching, uh, not, you know,
16:23
preaching in a way that doesn't foster anxiety. So I made sure to
16:26
not read that passage before I was scheduled to preach.
16:31
I didn't want to have to potentially destroy my outline line.
16:34
Um, but you bring up how
16:36
historically,
16:39
primarily, you highlight
16:42
revivalist leaders like Finney Moody,
16:45
Billy Graham. Um, so
16:48
you talk about what's called the anxiety relief
16:50
repentance model. So why don't you talk through that
16:53
model and then kind of talk about the dangers of such. Because I
16:56
think the dangers was when I was. Really
16:59
resonate with me, too.
17:01
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah. So just walking this through, uh,
17:03
when we think about Finney. Finney is the earliest of the three you talked about. So talk about
17:06
Finney Moody Graham. Right. Finney is the earliest,
17:09
and he really was someone who lived in
17:12
a very scientific age, right. This kind of,
17:15
um, mid 19th century time of progress.
17:19
We can figure out how the universe works. We can understand
17:22
the laws, we can grow crops that have never before
17:25
been grown. We can maximize our potential, all of this.
17:27
And he just applied that to the world of faith. And what he really
17:30
genuinely believed from his own personal experience was,
17:33
this is kind of the way it works. People feel
17:36
anxiety when their hearts are ready
17:39
to turn towards God or kind of rightly disposed towards
17:42
God, but they realize they're living out of sync with that.
17:45
And so the natural result of that is anxiety. That's something
17:48
you just feel. Um, for
17:50
him then he said, the natural tonic
17:53
for this, the way that we cure this, is repentance.
17:56
Repentance brings everything back into alignment,
18:00
and then the anxiety is gone, and relief is
18:03
what takes its place. And so Finney, more
18:06
or less, um, just kind of understood this as part of the
18:09
way that the world worked. And he built his preaching
18:12
around it. Never, um, from his
18:14
perspective, to, like, intentionally
18:17
heighten anxiety. He didn't think he had to do that. He just
18:20
thought, I just need to speak the truth
18:22
clearly, and people that are ready to hear it are going
18:25
to feel anxious. Um, he did not understand
18:28
himself as kind of, like,
18:31
the quintessential, like, ginning up
18:33
anxiety. Right? Like, he just. He thought, I'm letting this happen because
18:36
this is what happens.
18:37
>> Loren: Right.
18:38
>> J. Michael Jordan: Um, and so he just. He understood it. Understood
18:41
that that's the way things worked. Um, that
18:44
cycle is something that I want to say, like, became pretty
18:46
normative for the way that we do worship. So a guy like Moody
18:49
comes along 40, uh, 50 years later,
18:52
and all of a sudden, he's like, you know,
18:55
this works. And Moody probably is a little
18:58
more, uh, intentional about, like,
19:01
okay, well, if it works to have people
19:03
anxious, you know? So I. You know, I cite some
19:06
stories in the book where it's pretty clear that he's
19:09
only telling this story. It doesn't advance his point at all. He's
19:12
simply telling the story to kind of turn the temperature up in the room.
19:15
Right. And because of that, he knows that
19:18
people will more easily convert.
19:20
And even then, he faces people who don't think this is a
19:23
good idea. And so he, um,
19:26
says, some of, uh, some of my opponents
19:29
accused me of cheating people into the kingdom, and he said,
19:32
that's fine. I cheated a million souls into the kingdom. That's
19:35
how he understood it. So a guy like Billy Graham comes along
19:38
again 50 or 60 years after
19:40
moody. Um, and he
19:43
is, you know, and you probably think of Billy Graham as a much more
19:46
gentle, kind of grandfatherly presence. At first, he
19:49
wasn't. At first, he really did kind of lean into the cycle.
19:52
Um, but then he kind of, like, adapted because he
19:55
realized, like, american culture had just kind of changed,
19:58
and people found it a little bit
20:00
distasteful, um, and somewhat
20:03
morally problematic to just, like, turn the temperature
20:06
up and bring about anxiety. But he
20:09
still really didn't, you know, so he's much more calm. I guess
20:11
what I'm gonna say, like, he didn't certainly heighten anxiety.
20:14
You know, he didn't tell stories to just kind of bully people into coming.
20:17
And. And even people who tend to be cynical about his,
20:20
like, his method of revival, evangelism,
20:23
recognize there's something different about him and Rudy. Um,
20:26
yet nonetheless, he really understood this and operating in the
20:29
same kind of way. Right. He was like, this is just what
20:32
happened. A little more like Finney, except kind of a modern
20:35
American where it's like, you know what? I don't want to
20:37
emphasize the anxiety before picture. I
20:40
want to emphasize the joy after. And so he would talk about the joy that
20:43
comes with knowing Jesus more and would talk about the anxiety
20:46
that we all kind of feel and we carry around as mid
20:49
century modern, late 20th century modern
20:51
Americans and say, jesus is the
20:54
way kind of out of that. So he didn't really question
20:57
the model, even though he was much more, um,
20:59
gentle about it. And again, that's okay. I mean, I think
21:02
part of what I've been talking about, as I've been doing some interviews
21:05
here about the book, is, like, I don't want to say
21:08
that that's always wrong. Like, there are times in our
21:11
lives where we do feel anxious because something's out of order.
21:14
>> Loren: Right.
21:15
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yet what I want to say is really interesting is because
21:18
those revivals, the Finney, Moody, Graham, you throw
21:21
Billy Sunday, you could throw all kinds of people in there
21:24
because they were seen as the place where stuff was
21:26
happening.
21:27
>> Loren: Mhm.
21:27
>> J. Michael Jordan: Those things really impacted Sunday worship. And
21:30
so because of that, then all the time when
21:33
christians gathered for worship, that was the cycle at play.
21:37
Anxiety, repentance, relief. So I trace in the book kind
21:39
of the prevalence of the altar call, even
21:42
in places where everyone was probably already
21:45
christian. So, uh, you know, but even there,
21:48
like, all we really know to do is kind of walk through this
21:51
anxiety repentance relief cycle. And I want to, like,
21:54
what's the word question that. I want to interrogate that a little bit,
21:57
right? Is that. Is that good for us?
21:58
>> Loren: And I've got to jump in here.
21:59
>> J. Michael Jordan: Because, like, yeah, please.
22:00
>> Loren: I was reminded of just when I was in Bible college
22:03
and there was revivalists who would come speak
22:06
in chapel, probably like you've experienced.
22:10
And, like, I was literally a Bible college. It wasn't just
22:13
like a, you know, what's the
22:15
word? Liberal, uh, arts, christian college. It was
22:18
literally like small Bible Baptist college.
22:21
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah.
22:22
>> Loren: And there'd be revivals who'd say, like, you know, hey, if you're feeling
22:25
anything amiss, it's because you're not
22:28
saved. Come and get saved. So that
22:31
one particularly resonates because of my own baggage. But
22:34
continue.
22:35
>> J. Michael Jordan: No, no, no. I mean, those are. That's absolutely right. And then you think about,
22:38
like, the way that that's not really a formula
22:41
for ongoing change in one's life that's healthy and
22:44
sustainable. I mean, you know, I've been married. Uh,
22:47
we just celebrated our 25th anniversary. So my wife Jill teaches
22:50
math here at Houghton with me, and we're
22:52
great spouses. Like, I just. I'm so very
22:55
thankful to have landed the spouse I did and
22:57
to enjoy life with her. Right. And maybe once or twice
23:00
along the way, I have realized,
23:03
like, I have got to change right now,
23:06
because if I don't, I might.
23:09
This marriage could be in danger. Mhm. There's
23:11
something out of whack and I need to change.
23:14
But most of the change in my life has been
23:17
this kind of, like, gradual, healthy
23:20
change that has come from having a secure relationship with this
23:23
other person, where I sort of dared to reimagine
23:26
who I really am in light of the fact that this other
23:29
person loves me in a way that's sustainable and
23:31
secure. And I feel like evangelicals have
23:34
largely lost this. Our sense of how
23:37
do we grow up with Jesus is really
23:40
sometimes very punitive and very much
23:43
like, if you don't do this, he's abandoning you
23:45
instead of he's with you. So
23:48
lean into this person that he made you to be.
23:51
Um, you know, it seems
23:54
sometimes that when I'm talking to. And this isn't
23:57
just the young people that I'm talking to when I'm talking, you know, when I'm doing anything out of
24:00
pastoral role or when I'm meeting with my faculty colleagues,
24:03
the way that christians can be so anxious
24:06
about discovering something in them that needs to change
24:08
and grow is so sad.
24:11
Like, it ought to be normal as breathing for me to
24:14
realize, like, oh, there's something amiss in me, but
24:17
God's spirit lives in me, and I can repent
24:20
and I can find a way forward. And this does not mean that I'm not loved, I'm not
24:23
seen, I'm not cared for. Um, and I feel like the way
24:25
we've centered the kind of anxiety repentance relief cycle
24:28
is what's so very difficult about it. It's not the presence of it
24:32
at all, but the way it's the one note that we know how to play
24:34
in the evangelical context.
24:36
>> Loren: Yeah, I want to read this quote because it resonated with
24:39
me so much. This comes from page 61 of the book you write,
24:42
centralizing the anxiety repentance relief cycle. And
24:45
christian worship has negative emotional consequences. Put
24:48
simply, it means that some are constantly on alert, while
24:50
some or others never are. It keeps tender
24:53
hearted christians emotionally homeless, like you say, because
24:56
they are so desperate to know God that they will hate
24:59
themselves for no reason. But for other christians, it
25:02
sears their conscience. They are nothing willing to
25:04
imagine they have anything to repent for, because repentance
25:07
would mean another exhausting and untenable journey
25:11
through anxiety. So I actually
25:13
want to highlight this from another perspective,
25:16
because me coming from a mainline context,
25:19
often in progressive leaning christian circles,
25:22
like, I can see the same
25:24
pattern in whether it's
25:27
social justice spaces and that same dynamic of
25:30
people who are just like constantly, as you
25:33
use the word, emotionally homeless, or,
25:36
um, folks who have frankly just seared their conscience
25:39
saying, I'm not going to go down this journey because it's too,
25:43
um, exhausting and untenable. And
25:46
that's why I really appreciated what you already said
25:49
there. About, in the book is like, examining
25:51
ourselves, uh, should be a normal thing,
25:54
and not feeling like we have to destroy our whole
25:57
world and self. Right?
25:59
>> J. Michael Jordan: Sure. And the wesleyan tradition is
26:02
a little interesting. So the wesleyan church, of course, we're an egalitarian
26:05
denomination and value both men and women in ministry and in some
26:08
other ways are fairly conservative. And, uh, it's always interesting
26:11
to me because I do see what you're saying, kind of on both sides
26:14
of our life together. Right.
26:17
There are some marriages that I know in the
26:20
wesleyan world that kind of have an egalitarian
26:23
veneer, but deep down are very
26:25
traditional. Right. The husband really isn't valuing
26:28
the wife as an equal partner. The husband really
26:31
is the one who, um, you know,
26:34
is. The career always comes first for the
26:36
husband, you know what I mean? But
26:40
if they were to see that, like, there's something in them that can't
26:43
even allow themselves to examine this marriage, to say,
26:46
is it really living up to my ideals? Am I
26:49
really, um. And, uh,
26:51
as opposed to sort of saying, like, yeah, it's always okay to look
26:54
at what's going on in here because what's not important is that I'm
26:57
doing this perfectly already, but that I have a posture that's always
27:00
oriented towards Jesus and ready to walk towards
27:03
him. And, um, I admit coming from a kind of
27:06
holiness tradition, that's some of the work we have to do. As we think about what
27:08
sanctification is. I definitely prefer to think of it
27:11
sanctification in terms of, like, having this posture that's
27:14
perfectly oriented towards Jesus, rather than the sense of
27:17
we're already doing things perfectly all the time. Because
27:20
as I look at some of the more conservative parts of the
27:23
wesleyan church that I'm, uh, familiar with, there are
27:26
some. Some Wesleyans who would still say, like, the last time I sinned
27:28
was xx year, you know, whatever that was. And it's sort of like, how.
27:31
How can you walk through life really thinking that, you
27:34
know? Um, but it would be a real blow to their
27:37
conscience and they would. Again, they would never walk that
27:40
journey because it would be just too painful to imagine. You know, when the civil
27:43
rights movement came around and I was quiet, that actually was
27:45
sinful. Like they. And so they're stuck, right? They're stuck back
27:48
there emotionally before that movie.
27:51
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, this is good stuff. Let
27:54
me take a hard shift here, because
27:56
you talk about going back to, I guess, worship music
27:59
and kind of that modern evangelical, non
28:02
denominational worship style. And I
28:05
enjoyed, because I forget the title of the book, but you
28:07
referenced this book by, I think,
28:10
uh, Ruth and who else was it? The kind of history of.
28:14
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah. Um. Yeah, I don't remember the title. Not myself. Yeah.
28:17
But it's a history of contemporary praise and worship.
28:21
>> Loren: Super nerdy, super. But, uh, really does
28:24
give some context to the movement history.
28:27
But what's interesting is you do kind of highlight
28:31
how even that
28:34
movement, which would still be considered very
28:37
young in the history of christian
28:39
liturgical practices, still
28:42
seem very spirit led
28:45
and, uh, spur of the moment,
28:48
even has its own formula and ritual. So do you want to just
28:51
talk a little bit about that?
28:53
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, sure. So, thinking about music specifically.
28:56
Right. The vineyard church kind of develops this sense of
28:58
like, um, starting with a certain
29:01
kind of song that kind of sets the mood in a certain
29:04
way. And then music might get kind of faster and
29:06
faster as you go along, and then kind of. Kind of hits a peak
29:10
point, after which everything kind of slows down and there's
29:12
kind of like a moment of emotional intimacy with God. And
29:15
that moment might be just a moment, or it might last for a
29:18
while. Um, and part of what I talk in the book
29:21
is I point to, uh, another manual for
29:24
worship that's totally non denominational, has no
29:27
theological grounding in the vineyard tradition at all, but
29:29
basically follows that same model and just says, well,
29:32
this kind of feels right. Essentially,
29:35
this idea of like, we just kind of know what songs go together. We
29:38
know what songs kind of build this sense of deep, uh,
29:42
internal resonance. We know when a fast song is right. We know when a
29:45
slow song is right. Um, and
29:47
it's something where again, there are originally some
29:50
theological justifications that
29:53
churches like the vineyard and other kind of charismatic churches
29:56
want to sort of say, this is why we're doing this. But it's now become
29:59
just kind of like common sense. Like, yeah, this is kind of how it
30:02
works. Like, if you get up and do just two praise and worship songs at
30:05
the beginning, it's gonna feel weird, but if you do three, it's gonna feel okay,
30:08
right?
30:08
>> Loren: Like my church only does two right now and it drives me
30:10
insane.
30:11
>> J. Michael Jordan: Right. Because we just know what it's supposed to be, right? Yeah,
30:14
yeah, absolutely. You know, and thinking back about the music
30:17
of, you know, our teenage years in our twenties, right. I mean, that idea of
30:20
like, what worked and what didn't, it's
30:23
somewhat culturally bound, right? Like, you hear some of that stuff now and it does sound
30:26
kind of dated or it speaks to you, but it doesn't quite
30:28
speak to them. Um, which is its own
30:31
kind of problem when we have that kind of sense in the body
30:34
of Christ of like, these people need this and these people need this. And,
30:37
you know, my, my grandparents need love lifted me and my,
30:40
you know, whatever it is that they, you know, each generation kind of needs its
30:43
own thing. So, yeah, we develop those kind of
30:46
formulas, um, and sometimes with the best of theological
30:48
justifications, and then the formulas just become kind of
30:51
patterns that make sense and work for us.
30:54
Yeah.
30:55
>> Loren: Yeah. So this is what I appreciate. Uh, I'm thinking about
30:58
on page 76, you talk about a
31:00
more liturgical church, more traditional
31:03
church, having a
31:06
gathering that orients itself around and
31:09
experience it as, or I guess more sturdy,
31:12
which I think is an interesting way of saying. But I was thinking about this.
31:14
So I attend a UMC United Methodist
31:17
church right now, and actually they have a contemporary service and they have
31:20
a traditional service. And
31:23
sometimes, uh, we go to the. Just
31:25
because depends if we want to sleep it or not, I guess, really
31:28
what it comes down to.
31:30
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, we have the same. So I can.
31:31
>> Loren: Yeah. And, but I think one thing that I
31:34
really appreciate about the traditional church
31:37
is like, I found myself
31:40
one day reciting along with, I don't remember if it was a
31:43
prayer or what it was, like, pretty
31:45
grumpy. Pretty grumpy at life, pretty
31:48
grumpy at God. And I'm, like, thinking, like,
31:51
I don't want to say these words, but
31:54
I know that me saying these words
31:57
is good for my spirituality and
32:00
my christian, uh, walk.
32:02
So I feel like that's what you're trying to get
32:05
at is, like, traditional
32:08
worship, whether we're feeling it or not, has a
32:11
way of spiritually developing us. Is that fair?
32:14
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, for sure. And, uh, of course, you know, part of the.
32:17
Part of the tension I talk about in the book in worship is this
32:20
tension between ritual and sincerity.
32:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
32:22
>> J. Michael Jordan: Right? And this idea of, like, sincerity
32:25
being, this is when I tell God what I am
32:28
feeling. Um, this is what I want to say to God.
32:31
Um, and the idea that that is always
32:34
positive is,
32:36
of course, totally impossible. Right? Like, that's
32:39
not. Any
32:41
emotionally healthy adult recognizes
32:44
that that's not possible. And yet that seems
32:47
to be the basis for a lot of contemporary
32:50
christian music. Right. It's very high on the sense, like, if that's a
32:53
scale, sincere ritual, it's very high on the sincerity.
32:55
But we're, we're saying things we
32:58
want to say to God, and even songs that kind of allow us to lament
33:02
have to have the tension broken in some way by us talking about how good God
33:05
is in the middle of the storm or whatever we want to say.
33:07
Um, whereas ritual, which is kind of a dirty
33:10
word in some evangelical worlds, less so in the mainline
33:13
world, but still, that idea of it's just
33:15
ritual, it's empty ritual, it's only words. It's going through
33:18
the motions. That idea of ritual,
33:22
it's about valuing something so deeply that
33:25
we want to continue to point our lives in that direction,
33:28
even when we're nothing, feeling it in the moment, right? And so we
33:31
do. We. We sort of say things, and
33:34
there are days we go through the motions and we might look
33:37
up, um, you know, I've done it many times after the end of the Lord's
33:40
prayer. Um, sometimes because I'm disciplining children
33:43
in my row and not really paying attention to what I'm saying,
33:46
or sometimes just because I'm distracted about the eagles game that's coming up
33:49
or whatever. And sometimes I might chasten myself for not
33:52
really being engaged, but to be able to sort of say, okay, even
33:55
if I wasn't engaged right then, it's good that these words are the ones
33:57
pouring over me.
33:58
>> Loren: M right.
33:59
>> J. Michael Jordan: There's something. There's something substantive that's pouring over me,
34:02
that's kind of working its way down into my soul. And,
34:05
um, even if I'm not feeling it in the moment, that
34:08
itself is its own kind of good. Now,
34:11
can we try to emotionally and mentally
34:13
engage with what we're doing in worship? Of course. Of course
34:16
we should. But holding that up as, like, if we haven't done
34:19
that, it's a, uh, failure, is also not really
34:22
very healthy.
34:23
>> Loren: Yeah. I think it speaks to what you say in 92 about the importance of a
34:26
guiding story outside of our own experience,
34:29
a story bigger than us, than we, that we
34:32
inhabit, rather than being left with sincerity alone. This
34:35
is when I really thought of Nandra Root, particularly his
34:38
book, um, church, uh, in the age of secular
34:40
mysticism, which so much of he writes about, is just like this
34:43
idea that it's all
34:46
in us to kind of produce our own religiosity
34:49
and sincerity and authenticity and our own
34:52
story and our own magnificence.
34:55
And like
34:57
you said, uh, it really.
35:01
Again, I don't know. I guess I say it like this. Like, there's some days I do
35:04
not feel like going to the gym or going for a run.
35:06
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yep.
35:07
>> Loren: But I find that when I, like, force myself to do
35:10
it, most times I'm like, I'm glad I did
35:13
that. That was good for me.
35:15
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah. And people say, do you like to run? And you say, no, I
35:18
like having run. You know what I mean? Like, that sense of, like, it's good to be on the
35:21
other side of that. Of course, yeah. Uh, you know, the guiding story thing, I'll
35:24
just say, like, it's remarkable how often,
35:27
again, when you talk to young people all the time
35:29
for a dozen years, like, I have. Right.
35:32
Part of what you're always trying to say to them is, like,
35:36
you are part of something bigger than yourself. Right.
35:39
But it's remarkable that you could go to worship
35:42
in the kinds of churches that most young people go to.
35:46
Most, uh, houghton young people, most of my young people.
35:49
And they're told that, right. They're
35:52
told to be part of a story bigger than themselves.
35:54
But practically speaking, everything encourages them to
35:57
think about the stuff that's going on inside of them rather than the stuff that's
36:00
going on outside of them. And so if you
36:03
want people to understand that they're part of a bigger story,
36:06
you've just got to tell the bigger story. You've
36:09
got to. I mean, whether or not you do the christian year
36:12
thing, uh, I try in the book to not be super elitist about
36:15
that, because I think sometimes it just boils down to a class conflict,
36:18
but it's like, no, this is a way of telling a bigger
36:21
story and immersing ourselves in a bigger story. And if you want
36:24
people to understand that they're nothing the center of everything,
36:27
you just can't treat them like the center of everything.
36:30
Um, and it's hard because there's ample reward
36:33
in most evangelical churches for treating people
36:36
like the center of everything if you can keep a big enough audience
36:39
of them. So, you know, there's not a lot of reward
36:41
for kind of standing on the margins and saying like, you know what, we're
36:44
going to tell a story right now that's going to make you profoundly
36:47
uncomfortable about who you are and may not lead to your
36:50
immediate joy that we've done this this way, you know.
36:53
Um, but that's part of a bigger story. And ultimately
36:56
it's really good news.
36:57
>> Loren: I'm trying to find the book, I can't remember the
37:00
title. Uh, David Taylor, something about
37:03
your body and worship. But
37:06
it makes me think, I'm hopefully going to have him m on here later. Oh,
37:09
you should fall. But it makes me think about
37:12
really practical implications because I think you talk about this in
37:15
the book about the lights turned off and
37:18
oh yeah, what are some other. So I was going to get to
37:21
this question. So I guess let's go at it now. What are some real
37:24
practical pros or
37:27
best practices and not good practices? Because I'm thinking,
37:30
obviously the lights turned off where it's
37:32
really individualistic. What
37:35
are some other practices that you're like and other
37:38
practices that might be positive?
37:41
I'm thinking, I don't know if you're familiar with Ryan Burge.
37:44
I've heard him talk about a
37:47
mainline church would often have a sharing of,
37:50
um, joys and concerns.
37:52
>> J. Michael Jordan: Mhm.
37:53
>> Loren: And in a sharing of joys and concerns they see like, hey, there's other people
37:55
struggling with other things too. So what are some other examples
37:58
that come to mind?
38:00
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, well, I mean, briefly hanging on the lighting thing. I mean, it's
38:03
remarkable, again, how often, uh, the
38:05
evangelical churches I'm talking about are house lights
38:08
down, stage lights up, in order to give a sort of
38:11
sense of one on one connection with the preacher or the
38:14
musician, but that you're not after ultimately a one on
38:17
one connection, you're after this bigger connection. So turn those house
38:20
lights up and recognize,
38:23
recognize the, recognize. Um,
38:27
for those churches that choose to, well, let me say it this
38:30
way, I am kind of a natural light person.
38:32
So during my time, uh,
38:35
as dean of the chapel at Houghton, we have these kind of big, kind
38:38
of floor to ceiling windows, and I would always make sure they were open. Part
38:41
of that was because I wanted people to ritually make the connection
38:44
with the place they were and to recognize God is still
38:47
God on the other side of that wall. So we don't have to, like, pull the wall down. We don't
38:50
have to pull the curtain down to pretend there's no world out there to meet him. You
38:53
know, he's there, too. Um, so there's
38:56
that. But if you are going to be part of a church that dims everything
38:58
and turns up artificial light, you've got to
39:01
recognize the power of the tools that you are using
39:04
and make sure that the people who are using those
39:07
tools have
39:09
criteria for decision making. That's not just a sort of sense of what
39:12
works, right? They've got to have
39:15
a little bit of a deeper sense of what's going on. And one of those
39:18
things, I think, um, is like. Like, the question
39:21
of whether our technology is used to
39:24
help connect us with the wider body or
39:27
just with what's going on inside of us. So, like, if you're going to
39:30
use image magnification on a screen, right, what are you
39:33
showing up there? Are you showing only, like,
39:36
an individual who's supposed to give people a paradigmatic
39:39
picture of what an individual is supposed to do when they worship?
39:41
Or are you showing, like, a baby being baptized?
39:44
You know, what thing is highlighted using the power
39:47
of this technological tool. Um, so I think that's super
39:51
important. Uh, when I thinking about lighting and technology now,
39:53
that said, right, I mean, it also gives
39:56
us pause to think about, like, old technology, like
39:59
hymnals, right? Which are pieces of technology
40:02
themselves, um, but also
40:04
isolate in a way. So, in a way, right, screens can actually
40:07
be really used to draw people's
40:10
attention out of themselves and into the wider
40:13
thing. Uh, so, you know,
40:16
it means we want to think about all of our technology in that way. In
40:19
what way is it driving us deeper in here? And in what way
40:22
is it making us aware of what's going on out there? And again, in
40:25
the big picture of the book, right. What I'm trying to say is, like, a
40:28
person with anxiety is primarily learning. Don't
40:31
stress about what's going on in here. Understand what's going on all
40:34
around you, and that you can make decisions
40:37
consistent with this reality out here, not this reality
40:40
in here. And this reality in here is going to change
40:43
and more. Maybe it will, maybe it won't,
40:46
but you can learn, okay, I can withstand what's going on
40:49
in here because this isn't everything. And then they come
40:52
to worship. Right. So, thinking about, like, in what ways does that
40:55
worship kind of draw us out of ourselves? So, similarly, you
40:58
know the pronouns when we sing, are we singing I songs or we
41:01
songs? Um, are we singing songs that are clearly
41:04
a collection of I's or a group
41:06
of I's in front of us, uh, doing the
41:09
I thing so that we can't all join in? I mean, those are really
41:12
crucial questions for worship. So, I mean, that's a
41:15
few of them. I mean, we could go a long time on that question.
41:17
>> Loren: No, that's good. We need to take a break and move on.
41:20
But, uh, I guess tease this a little, because then
41:23
folks can buy your book and really get the big thing. But talk
41:26
about the framework. You talk about a framework for healing
41:29
worship. Talk a little bit about that.
41:31
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah. So what I want to say again is that worship is
41:34
designed, uh, to not only be kind of our
41:37
sincere expression to God. Right. But is this
41:40
kind of gracious gift that God gives us that's
41:43
for our good and for our healing. And part of that is placed us
41:46
in a bigger story than ourselves. So then I examine kind of like, what's
41:48
that look like when it comes to liturgical time,
41:52
uh, the calendar that we keep? What's this look like in terms of
41:55
liturgical space, the space that we worship
41:57
in, what's it look like for music and preaching and even
42:00
sacraments, um, which, uh, are obviously, that's
42:03
contested territory, depending on how your church talks about sacraments or
42:06
ordinances. But each of those things in kind of the
42:09
modern american world has been taken to turn in on
42:12
the individual. And I want to say, like, let's think about
42:15
how these things can actually be a, um, much more broad
42:18
based. So that's what I mean by healing framework and a bit of what I'm
42:21
setting up.
42:22
>> Loren: Yeah, we don't have time to talk about it, but I thought your conversation
42:25
on sacraments versus ordinances was quite
42:28
compelling.
42:29
>> J. Michael Jordan: Oh, thanks.
42:30
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, let's take a break, and we'll come
42:33
back with closing questions. I was trying to find the quote
42:36
in my phone, but the, uh,
42:39
title of the book is worship in an age of
42:42
anxiety, how churches can create space for
42:45
healing by J. Michael Jordan. So check it
42:48
out. Let's take a break, and we'll come back with some closing questions.
42:54
All right, we're back with Reverend doctor Michael Jordan.
42:56
So thank you for your conversation, for
42:59
your time here. Some closing questions you can take as
43:02
seriously, or not as you'd like to if you're
43:05
pope for a day, what does that day
43:08
look like for you?
43:10
>> J. Michael Jordan: Oh, man. Um, around Houghton,
43:13
I'm kind of known as an ecclesiology buff. Like, I care
43:16
about the doctrine of the church a lot.
43:17
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
43:18
>> J. Michael Jordan: And I feel like that's most, um.
43:21
>> Loren: Often.
43:21
>> J. Michael Jordan: What keeps churches divided, um, is that we.
43:24
It's not so much, you know, churches, when they split, they say it's theological
43:26
reasons, but I think it's mostly ecclesiological reasons.
43:29
It's, uh. We disagree about what the church is for.
43:32
So I probably want to convene some kind of council to begin to work
43:35
that out. Right. I want to sit down and say, like, we need to figure out what
43:38
this church thing's about. I'm a consensus builder, so I have my ideas, but
43:41
I wouldn't want to, you know, uh, I'm not
43:44
fiat enough to say, well, this
43:47
is what it is, so. Yeah, but that's something I'd love to
43:49
solve, and if I could get everybody at the table, that's what I'd want to
43:52
do.
43:53
>> Loren: Oh, man, you're making me nerd out. There's a book I just saw from
43:56
Baker. I'm giving them some free pub here
43:59
on ecclesiology and, like, the five.
44:02
I'm going to try to have this guy on the pod because it sounds like a great
44:04
conversation. Um, a theologian or
44:07
historical christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to
44:10
life.
44:11
>> J. Michael Jordan: Well, obviously. And I said before my dissertation was on
44:14
charles finney, I just want to meet this guy. Like, I.
44:17
Everything. I don't know how deeply you've read anything of
44:19
his. Ah, he's this fascinating figure who
44:22
just, you, uh, know, through his
44:25
writing, of course, is this incredibly self possessed,
44:28
always. Sure. He's right, you know, just deeply.
44:30
Uh, uh. But also
44:33
turned a lot of the course of american evangelical
44:36
Christianity, both for good and for ill. In some ways. I'd love to
44:39
sit down with him and I would just love to kind of pick his brain a little
44:42
bit and see what was really going on in there. Um, just such
44:45
a fascinating figure to me. And that's part of it, you know, part of it. Part of
44:47
my history. You know, liturgical studies folks tend
44:50
to either tend towards the history or the theology side of things, and I
44:53
was always more of a history person, so I just love to
44:56
chat with him a bit.
44:58
>> Loren: Finney, did he do, like the. The
45:01
sawdust on the aisles, is that right? Was that him?
45:03
>> J. Michael Jordan: Well, I mean, he and others. He had the anxious
45:06
bench. That was his. I mean, Finney didn't
45:09
necessarily. There's a lot of argument about who actually pioneered
45:12
the anxious bench, but Finney was certainly an early popularizer of the
45:15
anxious bench. And that idea of, like, when you are feeling
45:17
anxious, you come down here and people pray you through
45:20
that. And, um, it just had such a profound impact
45:23
on so much more of American
45:25
Christianity than, I mean, both the mainline and evangelical
45:28
world. But even the, you know, the kind of charismatic
45:31
world, I mean, so much of american Christianity
45:33
has taken its cue from what
45:36
happened, uh, then. And, um, in some ways, I think he was
45:39
this unique figure. In some ways, it was just a unique time, and someone like
45:42
him was going to rise to the forefront and it just happened to be him.
45:45
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you think history will remember from our current
45:48
time and place?
45:50
>> J. Michael Jordan: I mean, I think the current kind
45:53
of conversations churches are having around sexuality, I
45:56
think, are going to be things that people remember forever.
45:59
Um, and I don't pretend to know how all of those are going to
46:02
go. I think people are going to
46:05
look back at both the content of our
46:07
conversations and the tone of our conversations,
46:10
and they're going to draw conclusions
46:13
about who we were. Um, and
46:16
I fervently hope, um, that both the content and the
46:19
tone of the way that I approach those is right. But I also have
46:22
enough kind of,
46:24
um,
46:27
what's the word? Epistological humility
46:29
to understand, like, wow, there's more going
46:32
on here than I can see, and I lean
46:35
and I trust and I do my best. Um,
46:38
but I'm sure that this is going to be something
46:41
that people are thinking about forever, whether or not,
46:43
again, however history chooses to process this moment
46:46
beyond the church. But they'll be talking about how we talked about it.
46:49
>> Loren: What do you hope for the future of Christianity?
46:52
>> J. Michael Jordan: I hope we have our eyes open. I just feel
46:55
like there's so much in my evangelical world right now,
46:58
which is about building its own little
47:03
kingdoms, fiefdoms, you know, like, ah, it's about
47:05
building our own institutions, um,
47:08
that parallel the world's institutions,
47:11
um, writing our own music, starting our
47:14
own little leagues. Um, but I
47:16
think that part of the reason we do that is because we're.
47:20
We're fearful about how what we believe
47:22
will interact with the world around us, and
47:25
we're fearful of that moment. And, um, I'm enough of
47:28
a spirit led holiness person to believe
47:31
that God's holy spirit living in me means something and
47:34
that I don't need to be afraid of that.
47:37
Um, and so I would hope for Christianity, that has its eyes
47:40
open more and really cares about
47:43
interacting with the world around it. And part of that means
47:46
bringing good news, and part of that means letting some light
47:49
in that we don't currently have. Um,
47:52
so that's, you know, that's. That's obviously huge,
47:55
but that's what I could wish for more for us.
47:57
>> Loren: It reminds me of. I can't find the quote now you have a quote about
48:00
the worldview and how, like, christian colleges have
48:03
marketed, like, we're gonna protect your kid from their
48:06
worldview being changed.
48:08
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah. No, I mean, the way we talk about worldview is rather remarkable.
48:11
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:11
>> J. Michael Jordan: And. And sad in some ways, even though I know that
48:14
was part of the way, particularly in the eighties and nineties, worldview
48:17
language was all the rage. But this sort of sense
48:20
of, like, part of the worldview is not just
48:23
getting all the ideas in the right place, but viewing
48:26
the world like Jesus did, which was just full
48:29
of people who had not yet discovered who they were
48:32
and full of wonder at those people and
48:35
wanting to help them see who they are, you know, which is
48:38
only partially and a tiny little percentage about
48:41
dogmatic understanding of who they are, but more this kind of
48:44
awe and reverence for the human person.
48:46
>> Loren: So let me ask you one more question off script
48:49
here, please, as we think about. You're someone who
48:52
works with young adults all the time. I just interviewed
48:54
Jeff Koose, I think is his name,
48:57
uh, who led a big study, uh, recently published
49:00
a book with erdmans on young adults
49:04
and spirituality and
49:06
openness to religiosity. But, I mean,
49:09
what are your thoughts? You obviously work with young people, young adults every
49:12
day. What are some real obvious things that are not
49:15
resonating with young people? What
49:18
is resonating with young people, especially when it comes to
49:21
church attendance in Christianity?
49:24
>> J. Michael Jordan: Yeah, well,
49:27
um, I think young people
49:30
are always, uh, caught. I'll say the
49:32
kinds of young people I work with who are largely from evangelical
49:35
backgrounds, are always a little bit caught between
49:38
fighting their parents battles without realizing it, on the one hand.
49:41
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
49:42
>> J. Michael Jordan: And then on the other hand, um, being determined that they will never
49:45
fight their parents battles, you know? Um, and
49:48
so, um, you know, I
49:50
do think, um, the church's,
49:54
um, inability to kind
49:56
of think well
49:59
politically right now is part of what's troubling to young
50:02
people. Like, most of the young people I
50:04
know, again, who are beginning
50:07
to sort of imagine, okay, how do I fit in the wider world?
50:10
World, um, are not
50:13
wanting to kind of build little kingdoms where they don't have to
50:16
engage. But they're thinking, like, okay, when I vote,
50:19
that means something. How do I do that? How do I get
50:22
guidance about that? And what they're finding mostly right now is
50:25
either strong voices or voices that say, I don't really have
50:28
much to say to that because I, uh, know
50:31
that if I say something about that, it's going to cost me.
50:33
And I don't think young people are really interested in building
50:36
those kinds of institutions that don't really
50:39
get at the real questions of life
50:42
and making meaning. Um, and
50:45
again, part of what drew me to this book was the
50:48
sense of, like, for my, you know, I've watched enough young
50:51
people glaze over in chapel when
50:54
the chapel speaker talks about, be anxious for
50:57
nothing, but clearly doesn't have any
50:59
understanding of the experience of anxiety.
51:02
And they were like, okay, well, this doesn't touch, touch
51:05
anything real. And, uh, so, you know,
51:08
part of when I say I want eyes open is I want something that
51:11
touches that real place. And I think, yeah,
51:14
I think young people are looking for something that touches that. And it's not neatly
51:16
conservative or progressive, right? I don't think it's neatly about saying,
51:19
like, well, they're tired of Trump or they're tired,
51:22
you know, I mean, yes. And, right. I mean, I think there's something else
51:25
going on there that's like. I mean, this is a
51:28
complicated moment, and I want something that's going to help me
51:31
get some perspective on what it means and how I fit and how I
51:34
follow, how I do something meaningful
51:37
here. That's not about the agendas that the world has for me, but
51:40
it's about a higher agenda, you know? And right
51:42
now, we're failing on that front in some ways, so.
51:45
>> Loren: All right. Where can people find out more about
51:48
you, get the book, all that stuff?
51:51
>> J. Michael Jordan: Well, because of my ambivalence about any kind
51:54
of fame, I don't have a huge presence. You, uh, can certainly
51:57
find out more about me or about Houghton@houghton.edu.
52:00
that's Houghto nd
52:03
would be glad to connect with people there, just even by email. If you want to
52:06
set up a time to talk, that kind of a thing, uh, you can find me
52:09
on Facebook, Reverend doctor Michael Jordan.
52:11
Or, um, I am starting a sub stack because
52:14
I want to connect with more people who are reading my writing. So not
52:17
like a, uh, paid thing, but just, I'll be doing some devotions and stuff.
52:20
So that's going to be starting up this fall. You can find me at the other Michael
52:23
Jordan, uh, on substack so if you're interested, find me there. So,
52:26
yeah, perfect.
52:28
>> Loren: All right, well, thanks. Uh, really appreciate the time and the
52:30
conversation. Always leave folks with a word of peace. So
52:33
mega God's peace be with you.
52:35
>> J. Michael Jordan: Thank you. And with you.
52:43
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
52:46
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52:49
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